[DoomRL] Design Issues - Results
Kornel Kisielewicz
As telling everyone in every subthread what I have planned would be too
time-consuming (I'd rather code ;-) ), I'll tell what I have planned for the
major issues -- of course thi is open to discussion.
Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a magazine of 4.
One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the magazine, the second one
(if in a row with the previous) will reload all shells (longer reload time
equal to the missing shells in the magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it
is.
Dodge -- the "slow bullet" approach would need severe modifications to
the engine. And DoomRL is a roguelike after all, so it doesn't have to be
exactly as Doom. But the dodge argument is valid, and again Daviid (IMVHO)
had the best proposition on that. Here's my version of his idea.
Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and only
player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that the attacker
will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will only happen if the
adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket, plasma, ball). The chance of
firing in the last cell is modified by the Traits Hellrunner and Dodge
(new), (maybe) by the direction of the last move), (maybe) by the distance
from the attacker. The problem here is, that the adversary will never fire
if the player just get's out of the LOS, but that would be only visually
interesting, so maybe we'll be able to live with that. Also it is modified
based on the shooters weapon.
Head Slot -- will be in, but only when I change the LOS and Dungen code
(then it will have sense).
New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the Doom-feel
IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells), BFG10k
(as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an assault rifle as a step between
Pistol and Chaingun.
Chaingun (Realism/Single-fire) -- Oh come on! The Chaingun *is* a
gatling gun, we see that clearly in the game. Unrealistic? Hell, if I were
supposed to make DoomRL weapons realistic, then you would be able to carry
just two-three weapons, and only a handfull of ammo to them. This is a
cinematic game, and anything other would make the game challenging, but also
boring and unDoomish. So, no single-fire chainguns, and damage of chaingun
versus pistol will stay the same.
Library change -- I'm fully determinated to port DoomRL to GenRogue's
Valkyrie library. If that is done it will solve a lot of issues. Linux
version will be possible, CMovies and screenshots will be possible, a
ini-file will be very easy to implement, and several other issues will be
solved. I will start writing a API facade unit between Valkyrie 1 and
Valkyrie 2 ASAP.
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Marcus
> Hello,
>
> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
Just a quick note on this as far as 'canon' goes. Doom 3 has both Grenades
AND a SMG/MG like weapon. I'm fairly ambivalent about either, and the
others, though I do think the Railgun could be a cool weapon (it behaves
markedly differently than the others). Grenades do open up some interesting
tactical possibilities.
Get those room traps and monster swarms in! :D
ru
> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and only
> player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that the attacker
> will fire at the last spot the player was at.
nice :)
> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the Doom-feel
> IMHO).
i'm not particularly fussed, but i tend to include quake in the doom
canon; the grenade launcher in quake is quite fun to bouncing shots off
walls.
> The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
> probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells),
actually i'd do these the other way round: cells for the lightning gun,
and dedicated railgun ammo. the reason being that the LG is just another
energy weapon which needs electricity to work, whereas the railgun needs
a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
--
ru
Martin Read
>Just a quick note on this as far as 'canon' goes. Doom 3 has both Grenades
>AND a SMG/MG like weapon.
*ahem* I, and I believe several others, do not regard Doom 3 as part of
the Doom canon.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
Kornel Kisielewicz
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>
> Just a quick note on this as far as 'canon' goes. Doom 3 has both
> Grenades AND a SMG/MG like weapon.
I don't consider Doom3 as canon. At least until I see it ;-).
> I'm fairly ambivalent about
> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a cool
> weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
Yes. But what to use as ammo?
> Get those room traps and monster swarms in! :D
Uh, yeah ;-)
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
You think cells may provide electricity?
> whereas the
> railgun needs a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far the
graphics go...
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
TheWickedFlea
>> railgun needs a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
>It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far
>the
>graphics go...
the slug, and at it's speed you probably could see it!
Nice game Kornel!
For those who couldn't guess I'm new around here. ;)
Zillameth
co nastepuje:
>>
>> actually i'd do these the other way round: cells for the lightning
>> gun, and dedicated railgun ammo. the reason being that the LG is just
>> another energy weapon which needs electricity to work,
>
> You think cells may provide electricity?
>
It would be very impractical if they contained plasma (which is HOT!). :-)
>> whereas the
>> railgun needs a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
>
> It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far the
> graphics go...
>
Real "railguns" use magnetic fields to accelerate small metal objects. Some
people believe that one day it will be possible to construct a railgun that
accelerates projectiles to much higher speeds than those attained with
combustion based guns. No curly blue trails should be expected, though. And
no explosion flash. Not much noise, either. Sorry.
Pozdr.
--
Jacek "Zillameth" Wesołowski
zi...@jimp.neostrada.pl
FAQ grupy prgk.rpg - http://faq.prgk.net/rpg.txt
"If you back up, it won't matter if you screw up."
Kornel Kisielewicz
>>> whereas the
>>> railgun needs a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
>> It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far
>> the
>> graphics go...
> It is a slug fired at hypersonic speeds. Magnets are used to propel
> the slug, and at it's speed you probably could see it!
So how should I name the ammo? (or maybe it could be powered by BOTH cells
and 10mm ammo, that would be fun! :D -- and would mean you would still have
to carry at least a handfull of those 10mm bullets :D).
> Nice game Kornel!
Thank you... ;-)
> For those who couldn't guess I'm new around here. ;)
...and welcome ;D
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> Kornel Kisielewicz w wiadomosci news:ctjc3e$oqo$1...@inews.gazeta.pl
> pisze, co nastepuje:
>
>>>
>>> actually i'd do these the other way round: cells for the lightning
>>> gun, and dedicated railgun ammo. the reason being that the LG is
>>> just another energy weapon which needs electricity to work,
>>
>> You think cells may provide electricity?
>
> It would be very impractical if they contained plasma (which is
> HOT!). :-)
So with what to power Lighting Guns?
>> It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far
>> the graphics go...
>
> Real "railguns" use magnetic fields to accelerate small metal
> objects. Some people believe that one day it will be possible to
> construct a railgun that accelerates projectiles to much higher
> speeds than those attained with combustion based guns. No curly blue
> trails should be expected, though. And no explosion flash. Not much
> noise, either. Sorry.
I know, I know, but DoomRL wont simulate reality ;-) (this is GenRogue's job
:D), anyway see post above about the ammo for railguns...
regards,
Kornel Kisielwicz
Martin Read
>Real "railguns" use magnetic fields to accelerate small metal objects. Some
>people believe that one day it will be possible to construct a railgun that
>accelerates projectiles to much higher speeds than those attained with
>combustion based guns. No curly blue trails should be expected, though. And
>no explosion flash. Not much noise, either. Sorry.
Oh, there'll be plenty of sound from a railgun projectile, given its
airspeed. Not to mention the sound of the railgun violently disassembling
itself :)
Glen Wheeler
"Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:ctjc0o$od4$1...@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Marcus wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>>
>> Just a quick note on this as far as 'canon' goes. Doom 3 has both
>> Grenades AND a SMG/MG like weapon.
>
> I don't consider Doom3 as canon. At least until I see it ;-).
>
I personally adore Doom3. But if you want to really speak about canon,
you should read the doom bible:
http://www.planetdoom.com/doom/doombible.pdf
Being one of the original design documents. Check it out for any ideas
wrt enhancing DRL...I personally think most people don't know what the doom
feel actually is, what was aimed for by id. Then again, it is pretty common
to get these things mixed up. The pdf above is pretty helpful clarifying
all that. Doom3 itself is much closer to that above than any of the other
doom games.
>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a cool
>> weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>
> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
--
Glen
L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Glen Wheeler
> Hello,
>
> [..]
>
> Dodge -- the "slow bullet" approach would need severe modifications to
> the engine. And DoomRL is a roguelike after all, so it doesn't have to be
> exactly as Doom. But the dodge argument is valid, and again Daviid (IMVHO)
> had the best proposition on that. Here's my version of his idea.
>
> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and only
> player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that the
> attacker will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will only
> happen if the adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket, plasma, ball).
> The chance of firing in the last cell is modified by the Traits Hellrunner
> and Dodge (new), (maybe) by the direction of the last move), (maybe) by
> the distance from the attacker. The problem here is, that the adversary
> will never fire if the player just get's out of the LOS, but that would be
> only visually interesting, so maybe we'll be able to live with that. Also
> it is modified based on the shooters weapon.
>
It is a roguelike, and how you approach this depends on your aims as a
designer. If you are trying to replicate the doom approach, this isn't the
way to do it. If you want to adapt the doom approach to something more
roguelike then some kind of dodge statistic which determines through a
formula involving the enemy's accuracy (and perhaps other things) if a
projectile passes through your square instead of hitting you seems more
appropriate. The above seems counter-intuitive, since most dodging is
performed while firing (at least in doom).
R. Dan Henry
<kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>Hello,
>
> As telling everyone in every subthread what I have planned would be too
>time-consuming (I'd rather code ;-) ), I'll tell what I have planned for the
>major issues -- of course thi is open to discussion.
>
> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
>Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a magazine of 4.
>One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the magazine, the second one
>(if in a row with the previous) will reload all shells (longer reload time
>equal to the missing shells in the magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it
>is.
Too bad. I preferred the simplicity of the walk-and-reload idea.
> Dodge -- the "slow bullet" approach would need severe modifications to
>the engine. And DoomRL is a roguelike after all, so it doesn't have to be
>exactly as Doom. But the dodge argument is valid, and again Daviid (IMVHO)
>had the best proposition on that. Here's my version of his idea.
> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and only
>player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that the attacker
>will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will only happen if the
>adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket, plasma, ball).
This should work. At least running for cover will be semi-viable.
> Head Slot -- will be in, but only when I change the LOS and Dungen code
>(then it will have sense).
How about a Tor Johnson Mask for the Head Slot. Monsters think you're
another monster until they see you attack, so you can sneak into
position and attack by surprise. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be very
durable, so would be shot off in one or two hits.
> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the Doom-feel
>IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
>probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells), BFG10k
>(as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an assault rifle as a step between
>Pistol and Chaingun.
I don't think new weapons are needed, just more utility for the
existing ones. What you could add some variety to is barrels. In
addition to exploding barrels, there could be barrels that spill acid
when shot (cover the floor around them with acid), barrels that do
nothing (make shooting through them difficult/impossible and they
serve as extra cover), barrels that burst into flame (light up the
level -- addition after darkness implemented), barrels that do other
interesting things.
> Chaingun (Realism/Single-fire) -- Oh come on! The Chaingun *is* a
>gatling gun, we see that clearly in the game. Unrealistic? Hell, if I were
>supposed to make DoomRL weapons realistic, then you would be able to carry
>just two-three weapons, and only a handfull of ammo to them.
And one assumes a bit more advanced design than today, and it is only
using pistol ammo (a sensible decision if you want soldiers firing the
thing on the run).
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
R. Dan Henry
<zi...@jimp.neostrada.pl> wrote:
>Kornel Kisielewicz w wiadomosci news:ctjc3e$oqo$1...@inews.gazeta.pl pisze,
>co nastepuje:
>>> actually i'd do these the other way round: cells for the lightning
>>> gun, and dedicated railgun ammo. the reason being that the LG is just
>>> another energy weapon which needs electricity to work,
>>
>> You think cells may provide electricity?
>It would be very impractical if they contained plasma (which is HOT!). :-)
The cells would generate plasma on firing. Just having hot plasma
sitting around would be silly. Furthermore, if it is the right kind of
plasma, it could power a miniature fusion generator which would
generate electricity.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Loonie
>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a cool
>> weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
IMVHO ammo issues should not be a problem for a designer. I regard it much
more interesting if they will be a lot of weapons with a lot of types of
ammo, that (ammo) will be not as easily disponible as now (it's enough to
go into hell arena on 2nd level to have more than you can carry). That will
give situations like: "oh, no - no more 7.62 bullets - I've got to switch
to this 20mm gatling gun again! Hope will find some shotgun bullets soon
anyway."
I think that inventory limitations \ ammo simplification issues are
blocking you development. ;->
--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Loonie
>> It is a slug fired at hypersonic speeds. Magnets are used to propel
>> the slug, and at it's speed you probably could see it!
>
> So how should I name the ammo? (or maybe it could be powered by BOTH cells
> and 10mm ammo, that would be fun! :D -- and would mean you would still have
> to carry at least a handfull of those 10mm bullets :D).
Slugs - http://www.quake2.com/q2wfaq/q2wfaq.html
You don't need to invent the wheel again ;-)
Marcus
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a
>>> cool weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
> IMVHO ammo issues should not be a problem for a designer. I regard it
> much more interesting if they will be a lot of weapons with a lot of
> types of ammo, that (ammo) will be not as easily disponible as now
> (it's enough to go into hell arena on 2nd level to have more than you
> can carry). That will give situations like: "oh, no - no more 7.62
> bullets - I've got to switch to this 20mm gatling gun again! Hope
> will find some shotgun bullets soon anyway."
> I think that inventory limitations \ ammo simplification issues are
> blocking you development. ;->
I like the ammo management. I've had to make tough decisions on what to
carry. Hopefully he'll tweak the chaingun/plasma rifle vs monster armor
behavior, this will force even more contemplation of the issue. Even more so
when the monster mixes and packs change and grow.
Doom inherently doesn't have a ton of weapons, and he's already added
modified versions of the 'basic' weaponry. The rest is carefully monitoring
your healthpacks, ammo, phase devices, possibly thermo bomb, backup armor,
extra weapons, and so on. Even with the 'limited' weapon selection, I still
find myself agonizing over whether I should ditch certain weapons. I suspect
these choices will become more difficult, not less, as he tweaks weapon and
monster behavior.
Loonie
>> Chaingun (Realism/Single-fire) -- Oh come on! The Chaingun *is* a
>>gatling gun, we see that clearly in the game. Unrealistic? Hell, if I were
>>supposed to make DoomRL weapons realistic, then you would be able to carry
>>just two-three weapons, and only a handfull of ammo to them.
>
> And one assumes a bit more advanced design than today, and it is only
> using pistol ammo (a sensible decision if you want soldiers firing the
> thing on the run).
That's why I argued that it is a submachine gun implemented under a great
name. The arguments:
1) rate of fire - seems to be five times the pistol fire, so say it's 10
rounds for a second, giving something like 600fpm, while for gatling guns
1 300 - 10 000 rounds per minute:
http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm
2) pistol ammo 10mm comparing to something like 20mm ammo for gatling guns
- this one is explainable however
3) so - with such a rate of fire it is unnecessary to use multiple barrels
as the barrel will not heat itself enough to use gatling gun paradigm, as
we can see on example here:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg39-e.htm
this gun uses 9mm ammo and shots at 550 rounds per minute, while having
only one barrel, using only recoil to operate, instead of costly energy
sources to rotate gatling barrels (increased weight).
Marcus
> TheWickedFlea wrote:
>>>> whereas the
>>>> railgun needs a solid slug. YMMV ;-)
>>> It is?? I always thought of it more as a laser... at least how far
>>> the
>>> graphics go...
>> It is a slug fired at hypersonic speeds. Magnets are used to propel
>> the slug, and at it's speed you probably could see it!
>
> So how should I name the ammo? (or maybe it could be powered by BOTH
> cells and 10mm ammo, that would be fun! :D -- and would mean you
> would still have to carry at least a handfull of those 10mm bullets
> :D).
That's a neat idea... 1x 10mm slug + 5-10 cells per shot or something
similar. Though since you can stack 10mm so high, that wouldn't have much of
a meaningful impact. It would at least force you to use one extra slot to
use the Railgun. I wouldn't recommend adding Slugs, since it'd be another
ammo type that only *one* weapon uses. If nothing else, only Cells wouldn't
feel entirely unnatural.
Speaking of ammo, do you plan for the plasma rifle to supercede the chaingun
entirely later in the game? In Doom, I'd generally use the Chaingun on
weaker stuff later, but the way DRL is now, there *isn't* any weaker stuff
later ;) Some more swarms of weaker monsters later would help that, forcing
you to decide what to carry around to deal with them.
Loonie
> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
> Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a magazine of 4.
> One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the magazine, the second one
> (if in a row with the previous) will reload all shells (longer reload time
> equal to the missing shells in the magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it
> is.
So, pump-action shotgun finally? The size of magazine seems a little small
to me however, it's 5 up to 8 in modern pump-action shotguns. The goal is
obviously not to reload the magazine until the danger is removed.
> Dodge -- the "slow bullet" approach would need severe modifications to
> the engine. And DoomRL is a roguelike after all, so it doesn't have to be
> exactly as Doom. But the dodge argument is valid, and again Daviid (IMVHO)
> had the best proposition on that. Here's my version of his idea.
> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and only
> player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that the attacker
> will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will only happen if the
> adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket, plasma, ball). The chance of
> firing in the last cell is modified by the Traits Hellrunner and Dodge
> (new), (maybe) by the direction of the last move), (maybe) by the distance
> from the attacker. The problem here is, that the adversary will never fire
> if the player just get's out of the LOS, but that would be only visually
> interesting, so maybe we'll be able to live with that. Also it is modified
> based on the shooters weapon.
This mechanism is quite complicated and innovative, but I guess it's not
really interesting to use, as the dodging move is usually backward in
roguelikes, eventually backwards across. That usually induces monster
chasing character instead of shooting, while character is going for
obstacle, which is in some way necessary for him.
> Head Slot -- will be in, but only when I change the LOS and Dungen code
> (then it will have sense).
Nice.
> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the Doom-feel
> IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
> probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells), BFG10k
> (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an assault rifle as a step between
> Pistol and Chaingun.
Let me guess - 10mm assault rifle? :> Seems be closer to verity than 10mm
gatling gun, but anyway too simplified for my taste. (I might be deviated
by Vietcong).
> Chaingun (Realism/Single-fire) -- Oh come on! The Chaingun *is* a
> gatling gun, we see that clearly in the game. Unrealistic? Hell, if I were
> supposed to make DoomRL weapons realistic, then you would be able to carry
> just two-three weapons, and only a handfull of ammo to them. This is a
> cinematic game, and anything other would make the game challenging, but also
> boring and unDoomish. So, no single-fire chainguns,
Right now it's a submachine gun that has unnecessary gatling gun mechanism.
;-> Unrealistic - take reality, multiply by 2 and you will receive
science-fiction, I've nothing against. If some weapon fires realistic ammo
with realistic rate of fire doing realistic damage it's ok for me. Unless
the gun is close in parameters to modern 2 kg submachine gun and is
supposed to be a 50kg six(?)-barelled gatling gun used primarily as
antiaircraft gun. Doom creators needed a weapon that is visually
interesting and distinctive, that's why they used gatling gun I guess.
> ...and damage of chaingun versus pistol will stay the same.
You omitted word "illogically". ;>
PS. Inventory decisions are unDoomish if you ask me.
The Sheep
> Real "railguns" use magnetic fields to accelerate small metal objects.
You're talking about coil guns.
They use a set of electromagnets (coils) along the barrell to propel the
projectile.
Rail guns use two (or more?) rails, positioned like a letter V, and a very
powerful electric field is used to propel the projectile along the rails
(in similar way you can shoot an appleseed [not the manga] by pressing it
between your fingers).
> Some
> people believe that one day it will be possible to construct a railgun that
> accelerates projectiles to much higher speeds than those attained with
> combustion based guns.
Especially the ones who already did it in the labs.
Railguns were already built, they are working. Unfortunatelly, they
require a small power plant to operate and you need to install new rails
for every shot. And the size is hardly portable.
> No curly blue trails should be expected, though. And
> no explosion flash. Not much noise, either. Sorry.
Since the projectiles brak the sound barrier, considerable amount of noise
is expected. Some flashes between the rails and a trail of ionized air
could be expected too...
The projectiles has such an energy, that there's a large explosion when it
hits the target (AFAIR the projectile and part of the target turn into
plasma, or something).
--
Radomir @**@_ Bee! .**._ .**._ .**._ .**._ zZ
`The Sheep' ('') 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (--) 3
Dopieralski .vvVvVVVVVvVVVvVVVvVvVVvVvvVvVVVVVVvvVVvvVvvvvVVvVVvv.v.
Kornel Kisielewicz
>> I don't consider Doom3 as canon. At least until I see it ;-).
>>
>
> I personally adore Doom3. But if you want to really speak about
> canon, you should read the doom bible:
>
> http://www.planetdoom.com/doom/doombible.pdf
I know it ;-). I have a copy of it in the DoomRL design folder ;-).
> Being one of the original design documents. Check it out for any
> ideas wrt enhancing DRL...I personally think most people don't know
> what the doom feel actually is, what was aimed for by id.
Still i consider this design version a little to "bright and happy".
>>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a
>>> cool weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>>
>> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
1 vote against. Any others?
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a
>>> cool weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
> IMVHO ammo issues should not be a problem for a designer. I regard it
> much more interesting if they will be a lot of weapons with a lot of
> types of ammo, that (ammo) will be not as easily disponible as now
> (it's enough to go into hell arena on 2nd level to have more than you
> can carry). That will give situations like: "oh, no - no more 7.62
> bullets - I've got to switch to this 20mm gatling gun again! Hope
> will find some shotgun bullets soon anyway."
Well maybe... I had this all the time when playing DeusEx ;-).
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Loonie
>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
> 1 vote against. Any others?
For.
ru
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>
> For.
for.
--
ru
Kornel Kisielewicz
2 to one ;-). I'll make a regular poll for it in the next Design Issues Post
;-)
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Lars Kecke
against. Doom-tech was always almost steam-age to me (how do those
English get along without composite nouns?), so the rail gun just looks
too 'clean'. Also the rail gun (like a sniper rifle) would be a true
long-ranged (that is 400m+) weapon with a >1m barrel and a >1s firing
delay; totally unsuitable for the doom setting (even Doom's rocket
launchers are air/water powered, judging by the speed and lack of
backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
flamethrower.
Lars
TheWickedFlea
> 1 vote against. Any others?
TheWickedFlea
> 1 vote against. Any others?
TheWickedFlea
> 1 vote against. Any others?
David Damerell
Against. It's a Quake-ism. If you are going to add an accurate longrange
weapon, a sniper rifle would be more thematically appropriate.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Teleute, February.
David Damerell
> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
Obviously a man of taste and discretion. :-)
>Double shotgun will stay as it is.
I think you may need to rebalance SG/SSG damage now it decreases with
range; you don't want to find it becomes completely useless except at
pointblank.
>IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
>probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells), BFG10k
>(as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an assault rifle as a step between
>Pistol and Chaingun.
I think you should call it "submachine gun", otherwise people will
complain about it using pistol ammo.
How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?
Timofei Shatrov
tried to confuse everyone with this message:
>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>For, gimme the gun! ;)
>
You cheater! Posted it three times :) I'm against railgun, although I'm
all for it if QuakeRL ever gets released ;)
--
|a\o/r|,-------------.,---------- Timofei Shatrov aka Grue ------------.
| m"a ||FC AMKAR PERM|| mail: grue at mail.ru http://grue3.tripod.com |
| k || PWNZ J00 || KoL:Grue3 NationStates:Holypunkeye |
`-----'`-------------'`-------------------------------------------[4*72]
Timofei Shatrov
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> tried to confuse everyone with this
message:
>
>How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
>loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?
I think with the addition of darkness (which appearance seems likely
after Kornel writes new LOS code) it won't be that useless.
TheWickedFlea
Sorry, it was not intentional.
Just beat the cyberdemon for the 1st time, nice work Kornel!
Kornel Kisielewicz
True.
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
P.S I'm currently biased against, anyone else want to comment?
Kornel Kisielewicz
Posting three times wont give you three votes, I watch the From field ;-).
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> On 1 Feb 2005 08:47:35 -0800, "TheWickedFlea"
> <thewic...@gmail.com> tried to confuse everyone with this message:
>
>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>> For, gimme the gun! ;)
>>
> You cheater! Posted it three times :) I'm against railgun, although
> I'm all for it if QuakeRL ever gets released ;)
LOL, maybe ;-)
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
> news:ctgceu$hrr$1...@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> [..]
>
> It is a roguelike, and how you approach this depends on your aims as
> a designer. If you are trying to replicate the doom approach, this
> isn't the way to do it.
I don't. "Bullettime" seems silly to me.
> If you want to adapt the doom approach to
> something more roguelike then some kind of dodge statistic which
> determines through a formula involving the enemy's accuracy (and
> perhaps other things) if a projectile passes through your square
> instead of hitting you seems more appropriate. The above seems
> counter-intuitive, since most dodging is performed while firing (at
> least in doom).
But as I see it, allows for some true tactical play. Anyway, we'll see how
it works when 097 will hit the shelves ;-)
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:09:14 +0100, "Kornel Kisielewicz"
> <kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and
>> only player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that
>> the attacker will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will
>> only happen if the adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket,
>> plasma, ball).
>
Especialy if you run zig-zag ;-).
>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>
> I don't think new weapons are needed, just more utility for the
> existing ones.
I'll make a poll on that.
> What you could add some variety to is barrels. In
> addition to exploding barrels, there could be barrels that spill acid
> when shot (cover the floor around them with acid), barrels that do
> nothing (make shooting through them difficult/impossible and they
> serve as extra cover), barrels that burst into flame (light up the
> level -- addition after darkness implemented), barrels that do other
> interesting things.
Hey, these are nice ideas, I'll keep them in mind!
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Kornel Kisielewicz
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
>> Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a
>> magazine of 4. One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the
>> magazine, the second one (if in a row with the previous) will reload
>> all shells (longer reload time equal to the missing shells in the
>> magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it is.
>
> So, pump-action shotgun finally? The size of magazine seems a little
> small to me however, it's 5 up to 8 in modern pump-action shotguns.
No, 4 should be enough for everybody ;-).
> The goal is obviously not to reload the magazine until the danger is
> removed.
That's why ;-).
>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>
> Let me guess - 10mm assault rifle? :> Seems be closer to verity than
> 10mm gatling gun, but anyway too simplified for my taste. (I might be
> deviated by Vietcong).
You are.
> Right now it's a submachine gun that has unnecessary gatling gun
> mechanism. ;-> Unrealistic - take reality, multiply by 2 and you will
> receive science-fiction, I've nothing against. If some weapon fires
> realistic ammo with realistic rate of fire doing realistic damage
> it's ok for me. Unless the gun is close in parameters to modern 2 kg
> submachine gun and is supposed to be a 50kg six(?)-barelled gatling
> gun used primarily as antiaircraft gun. Doom creators needed a weapon
> that is visually interesting and distinctive, that's why they used
> gatling gun I guess.
No comment ;-). I'm sick of this discussion, let a vote decide.
> PS. Inventory decisions are unDoomish if you ask me.
Let's see ;-)
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
The Sheep
Barrels that contain items so that it's sometimes good to shoot at them
even when there are monsters around...
Loonie
>> So, pump-action shotgun finally? The size of magazine seems a little
>> small to me however, it's 5 up to 8 in modern pump-action shotguns.
> No, 4 should be enough for everybody ;-).
Depends on the damage\hit ratio anyway, but I don't suppose so.
>> Let me guess - 10mm assault rifle? :> Seems be closer to verity than
>> 10mm gatling gun, but anyway too simplified for my taste. (I might be
>> deviated by Vietcong).
> You are.
I thought so. :-) Let's look for realistic 3d shooters then.
>> Right now it's a submachine gun that has unnecessary gatling gun
>> mechanism. ;-> Unrealistic - take reality, multiply by 2 and you will
>> receive science-fiction, I've nothing against. If some weapon fires
>> realistic ammo with realistic rate of fire doing realistic damage
>> it's ok for me. Unless the gun is close in parameters to modern 2 kg
>> submachine gun and is supposed to be a 50kg six(?)-barelled gatling
>> gun used primarily as antiaircraft gun. Doom creators needed a weapon
>> that is visually interesting and distinctive, that's why they used
>> gatling gun I guess.
>
> No comment ;-). I'm sick of this discussion, let a vote decide.
As you wish. Yours are decisions and responsibility. ;-)
Loonie
> ru wrote:
> against. Doom-tech was always almost steam-age to me (how do those
> English get along without composite nouns?), so the rail gun just looks
> too 'clean'. Also the rail gun (like a sniper rifle) would be a true
> long-ranged (that is 400m+) weapon with a >1m barrel and a >1s firing
> delay; totally unsuitable for the doom setting (even Doom's rocket
> launchers are air/water powered, judging by the speed and lack of
> backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
> flamethrower.
...and BFG is a really a big bunch of dirty socks - very powerful
explosion. That explains why the character is unaffected by this - he has
accommodated. ;)
David Damerell
><dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> tried to confuse everyone with this
>message:
>>How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
>>loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?
>I think with the addition of darkness (which appearance seems likely
>after Kornel writes new LOS code) it won't be that useless.
In that case I wouldn't have it use cells, but instead take the mickey out
of D3 by permitting the player to bolt a flashlight to some weapons; this
would make finding extra lights useful.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Oneiros, February.
David Damerell
>backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
>flamethrower.
If we _are_ going to have a non-Doom weapon, an actual flamethrower could
be amusing.
Kornel Kisielewicz
> quoting Lars Kecke <ke...@physik.uni-freiburg.de>:
>> backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically
>> powered flamethrower.
>
> If we _are_ going to have a non-Doom weapon, an actual flamethrower
> could be amusing.
Yeah ;-). I think that can be done. In a visually nice way to...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz
DoomRL ( http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ )
Glen Wheeler
Look, if there is ample opportunity to snipe away at opponents in DRL,
then that's a travesty against the doom feel. It should be rushed and
violent, not stealthy and snipe-ey.
--
Glen
L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Kornel Kisielewicz
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
> news:cto0ob$r7o$1...@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> ru wrote:
>>> In article <yt0czghf...@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe. 1
>>>>>> vote against. Any others?
>>>>
>>>> For.
>>>
>>> for.
>>
>> 2 to one ;-). I'll make a regular poll for it in the next Design
>> Issues Post ;-)
>>
>
> Look, if there is ample opportunity to snipe away at opponents in
> DRL, then that's a travesty against the doom feel. It should be
> rushed and violent, not stealthy and snipe-ey.
Agreed ;-)
J. W. McCall
> graphics go...
A railgun is a real device (although not nearly as advanced as in
Quake...the ones that exist now are very large, usually). It uses
powerful electromagnets to propel a metal projectile at extremely high
speeds.
The ammo is called "slugs" in Quake3, and I think that's an apt description.
J. W. McCall
J. W. McCall
> Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a magazine of 4.
> One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the magazine, the second one
> (if in a row with the previous) will reload all shells (longer reload time
> equal to the missing shells in the magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it
> is.
I just discovered DoomRL, but it's quite awesome, I must say. Looking
forward to playing new versions.
Now, about the shotgun...why not just load one shell each time you hit
the "r" key? This give you more control (reloading versus shooting) and
is more realistic. It would balance it, I think, since you must reload
each shell manually. If it only holds 4 shells, then hitting "r" four
times to reload it wouldn't be that tedious, I wouldn't think. Also, 4
shells does seem kind of low; I'm assuming that the shotgun in DoomRL
would be fairly short, but even 14 inch pump shotguns can hold about 6
arounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.
J. W. McCall
Loonie
Just wanted to say: me too.
--
Loonie ;-)
Kornel Kisielewicz
>> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
>> Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a
>> magazine of 4. One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the
>> magazine, the second one (if in a row with the previous) will reload
>> all shells (longer reload time equal to the missing shells in the
>> magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it is.
>
> I just discovered DoomRL, but it's quite awesome, I must say. Looking
> forward to playing new versions.
:-D
> Now, about the shotgun...why not just load one shell each time you hit
> the "r" key? This give you more control (reloading versus shooting)
> and is more realistic. It would balance it, I think, since you must
> reload each shell manually. If it only holds 4 shells, then hitting
> "r" four times to reload it wouldn't be that tedious, I wouldn't
> think. Also, 4 shells does seem kind of low; I'm assuming that the
> shotgun in DoomRL would be fairly short, but even 14 inch pump
> shotguns can hold about 6 arounds in the magazine and one in the
> chamber.
This was discussed before. I actually am in the point that I have no
freaking idea what to do ;-)
David Damerell
[DoomRL Shotguns]
>This was discussed before. I actually am in the point that I have no
>freaking idea what to do ;-)
I thought I'd step back and write something about this. There's a summary
proposal at the end.
First of all, what real guns are like. If you know that, skip ahead a bit.
There are probably some terminology errors, and I don't care. I'm only
going to talk about the kinds of gun in Doom.
Most real guns have a magazine full of bullets or shells (henceforth
always "bullet" for simplicity), and a "chamber", an area where a single
bullet can be held ready for firing. The mechanism which transfers bullets
from the magazine to the chamber is the "action".
[An exception is a revolver, where the chamber is whichever hole in the
magazine has rotated into position. But we don't care about that.]
A semi-automatic action is arranged such that when a bullet is fired, a
fresh one is loaded into the chamber - by gas pressure from the fired
round, typically - without human intervention, but the trigger must be
released and pulled again to fire again.
An automatic action will also load a fresh bullet every time one is fired
without human intervention; but will fire this fresh round if the user
continues to pull the trigger without releasing it.
Confusingly, pistols with semi-automatic actions are generally referred to
as "automatics". I will avoid that usage.
Both types of gun will tend to have a mechanical method, manually
operated, for loading the first bullet after the user inserts a fresh
magazine. This is probably part of the "reload" action in DoomRL.
Pump-action shotguns have an slide mounted under the barrel. This slide
loads a fresh shell into the chamber; it is operated by the user. It's
essentially similar to the mechanical method for loading the first bullet
on a semi-automatic or automatic gun. Also, shotguns like the single
shotgun in Doom have a magazine built into the gun, not a separate clip;
this makes it less fiddly, but forces the user to insert shells into it
rather than just putting in a fresh clip - rather like a guy with a big
bag of bullets but only one clip for his pistol would have to do.
Breech-loading guns have no magazine; after each firing the user opens up
the barrel and puts a fresh bullet in. A breech-loading gun might have
multiple barrels, which could be fired and reloaded together or
independently.
Now, about Doom. Doom never models magazines; every gun is belt-fed all
the ammo directly from the ammo butler. (DoomRL does model magazines).
Doom's chaingun is an automatic action; the pump-action shotgun has a
pump-action action (duh); the double shotgun is a 2-barreled
breech-loader. The pistol is an oddity. It can be fired repeatedly by
holding down Fire, like every gun, but I would argue that it is
semi-automatic from the rate of fire; the doomguy is releasing the trigger
even if the player is not.
Now we're down to DoomRL. I think an important question is what the role
of shotguns in DoomRL should be. Is the shotgun expected to be an early
weapon, discarded after you find the chaingun, or is it expected to be a
useful weapon all game with the right traits? The trouble is, it can't do
both.
I don't know how the damage penalty for spread at range affects shotgun
damage compared to missing with any other gun, but it seems likely to me
that DoomRL shotguns don't do enough damage. A chaingun burst does 5d6,
average 17.5; a shotgun a mere 4d4, average 10 - and the chaingun can
continue firing for longer than the proposed 4-magazine shotgun let alone
the current 1-shot. Sure, monster armour enters the picture; but so does
Son of a Bitch. Even the pistol does nearly as much damage as the shotgun,
and can sustain fire for longer.
In Doom, letting off the double shotgun up a pinkbeast's nostrils kills it
every time. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to be true in
DoomRL (at point-blank range, as in Doom).
I propose the following; add a third shotgun. The shotgun sergeants carry
is the existing 1-shot affair, described as "a shotgun"; it's supposedly a
breech-loading 1-barrel shotgun. This is a weapon that's better than the
pistol, but obviously worse than the chaingun or the proposed submachine
gun. Maybe give it a modest damage boost.
Keep the double shotgun as is, but boost the damage. (Note that the same
ammo already does different damage in different guns - pistol vs chaingun
in DoomRL, shotgun vs. double shotgun in Doom). If you _do_ have the
opportunity to alternate between close-range attacks and reloading in
cover, the double shotgun should be the best weapon. It is in Doom, and
that's not exactly easy to arrange.
As a pickup that occurs before the chaingun and double SG, but maybe after
the submachine gun, add a multi-shot magazine single shotgun. I still like
the "move to ready a fresh shell" idea. I know Kornel doesn't, so I'll
tell you why; as it is, if this shotgun can fire on multiple successive
turns and then reload, it's hard to differentiate it from the chaingun.
One gun will just clearly be better, and you'll use that as long as you
have ammo for it. This works with the plasma rifle, because although it is
always better than the chaingun, there isn't enough ammo to use it all the
time - and you get it so late on it doesn't dominate the game.
Hence if we want this shotgun (described as a "pump-action shotgun") to be
genuinely different from the chaingun, it's got to do something else. I'm
definitely warming to 'r' loading one shell into the magazine, to give
long nervous reloading intervals and an incentive to carry two shotguns
for inventory management joy.
Precisely what I propose is this;
This weapon is to do more damage in one turn than the chaingun, but less
during sustained fire-and-reload. Hence if you can use the move-dodging or
cover to your advantage, it's a better weapon; but if you can't, and just
want to crank out damage as fast as possible, it's worse. Of course this
does demand that the odds on move-dodging are good enough to make it
worthwhile!
The gun has about 5 shells in. Really this should be about enough to
deal with one tomato, but any more and you're in trouble. This is total
capacity; magazine and chamber alike.
Design decision; the end result of pressing 'r' should _always_ be a round
in the chamber, and maybe some rounds in the magzine. People expect that
when you press 'r' a gun is ready to fire. Let's not disappoint them.
Also, this means you can't be in the position where the magazine is full,
the chamber is empty, and 'r' refuses to do anything; and _this_ helps the
internal implementation be just a single integer "number of shells in gun"
and a flag "shell readied?".
When you fire the gun, the total number of shells in it is decremented,
and the "shell readied" flag is unset.
When you move while wielding the gun, if the "shell readied" flag is
unset, it is set. "You pump a shell into the shotgun."
When you press 'r';
If the "shell readied" flag is set, increase the number of shells in the
gun by one if it is not at the limit. "You reload the shotgun with a
shotgun shell". This reload should probably be quicker than reloading the
other guns, since you'll have to do it a lot - but after all, 5 lots of it
could still take a while.
If there are no shots in the gun, don't check the "shell readied" flag.
(We should still unset it when unloading a shotgun). Increase the number
of shells in the shotgun by 1, and set the "shell readied" flag. "You
reload the shotgun and prepare to fire." This should maybe be a bit
slower than the reload above.
Otherwise, there are shots in the gun, but the "shell readied" flag is not
set. Set it. "You pump a shell into the shotgun." This should again be a
quick reload - this gun is better than the breech-loader even when you
don't have room to maneuver. Optionally, if this is the first time this
case has come up during the game, print "You may also do this just by
moving."
Monsters with this gun simply fire off shells at a slightly faster rate
than the plain shotgun. They don't fiddle the "shell readied" flag, for
simplicity.
I know this isn't the most straightforward thing to implement, but I do
think it's the way to keep shotguns useful for most of the game, and give
them a flavour that is distinct from chainguns and in keeping with Doom's
shotguns.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Monday, February.
Juho Julkunen
> quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisie...@gazeta.pl>:
> [DoomRL Shotguns]
> >This was discussed before. I actually am in the point that I have no
> >freaking idea what to do ;-)
>
> I thought I'd step back and write something about this. There's a summary
> proposal at the end.
<megasnip>
> I know this isn't the most straightforward thing to implement, but I do
> think it's the way to keep shotguns useful for most of the game, and give
> them a flavour that is distinct from chainguns and in keeping with Doom's
> shotguns.
I like.
Kornel, please, at least consider this proposal.
--
JTJ | http://www.kolumbus.fi/j.julkunen/
It is possible that I could fall for such tricks... Then again, it's
also possible that a loaf of banana nut bread could spontaneously
appear in orbit around Mars.
Elethiomel
<snip snip snip>
> If the "shell readied" flag is set, increase the number of shells in the
> gun by one if it is not at the limit. "You reload the shotgun with a
> shotgun shell". This reload should probably be quicker than reloading the
> other guns, since you'll have to do it a lot - but after all, 5 lots of it
> could still take a while.
Nitpick;
Technically it should be "you load a shell into the shotgun", as the
term "reload" implies that you first unload something, as when you
reload a pistol - you take out a magazine (which may be empty) and
replace it with a different magazine. If the pistol has no magazine in
it when you start your action, you "load" it, as you don't have to take
anything out first.
Also, rather than "You pump a shell into the shotgun", you may want to
change it to "you pump a shell into the chamber", as it is already in
the shotgun, not just in a position where it can be fired.
J. W. McCall
> proposal at the end.
Overall a very good post. Let me add a few comments if I may.
> Both types of gun will tend to have a mechanical method, manually
> operated, for loading the first bullet after the user inserts a fresh
> magazine. This is probably part of the "reload" action in DoomRL.
Something that most games (and most movies) get wrong is the fact that
if you swap magazines *before* you're completely empty, there is no need
to use the manual mechanical method, such as racking the slide on a
pistol, or pumping a shotgun. Either of these are only necessary if you
completely empty a weapon before reloading. If you have at least one
round in teh chamber, you can just take out the old magazine and slide a
new one in, or pop in a shell on a shotgun. Pumping a shotgun or
pulling back a slide while a round is in the chamber would do nothing
but shoot a unused round out the side of the weapon, which is a waste.
I don't know if this is something you want to mess with, but it IMO adds
some tactical elements as well as realism.
> Pump-action shotguns have an slide mounted under the barrel. This slide
> loads a fresh shell into the chamber; it is operated by the user. It's
> essentially similar to the mechanical method for loading the first bullet
> on a semi-automatic or automatic gun. Also, shotguns like the single
> shotgun in Doom have a magazine built into the gun, not a separate clip;
> this makes it less fiddly, but forces the user to insert shells into it
> rather than just putting in a fresh clip - rather like a guy with a big
> bag of bullets but only one clip for his pistol would have to do.
I would personally like to see realistic implementing of magazines...you
only have as many as you've collected, and if you only have one, you
have to load up the magazine before you can use it each time. Of
course, you'd rarely have only one magazine, even after you start. I
realize this is probably too complicated and would annoy 99% of players,
but I'm just saying what *I* think would be super-cool. :)
> Now we're down to DoomRL. I think an important question is what the role
> of shotguns in DoomRL should be. Is the shotgun expected to be an early
> weapon, discarded after you find the chaingun, or is it expected to be a
> useful weapon all game with the right traits? The trouble is, it can't do
> both.
In the spirit of the original Doom, I think the shotgun should be a
workhorse weapon that is useful throughout much of the game.
> I propose the following; add a third shotgun. The shotgun sergeants carry
> is the existing 1-shot affair, described as "a shotgun"; it's supposedly a
> breech-loading 1-barrel shotgun. This is a weapon that's better than the
> pistol, but obviously worse than the chaingun or the proposed submachine
> gun. Maybe give it a modest damage boost.
I personally don't understand the point of a 1-shot breech loading
shotgun. They're a pain to have to reload after every shot, IMO.
They'd also be completely out of place on Mars/Phobos/Deimos, wherever.
Single shot shotguns like that are pretty much only used for hunting.
They're a pretty old-fasioned design. Any sort of security, police,
or military use will have a pump-action or semi-auto shotgun. I don't
see the need for any shotguns beyond a pump-action (regular) shotgun and
a double-barrel (super) shotgun. To be fair, the double-barrel breech
loading style is also fairly primitive and not used in the military, but
it is in Doom, so what the heck.
> Hence if we want this shotgun (described as a "pump-action shotgun") to be
> genuinely different from the chaingun, it's got to do something else. I'm
> definitely warming to 'r' loading one shell into the magazine, to give
> long nervous reloading intervals and an incentive to carry two shotguns
> for inventory management joy.
I definately like 'r' loading a single round into the magazine at a time.
> Precisely what I propose is this;
>
> This weapon is to do more damage in one turn than the chaingun, but less
> during sustained fire-and-reload. Hence if you can use the move-dodging or
> cover to your advantage, it's a better weapon; but if you can't, and just
> want to crank out damage as fast as possible, it's worse. Of course this
> does demand that the odds on move-dodging are good enough to make it
> worthwhile!
Sounds good.
> Design decision; the end result of pressing 'r' should _always_ be a round
> in the chamber, and maybe some rounds in the magzine. People expect that
> when you press 'r' a gun is ready to fire. Let's not disappoint them.
> Also, this means you can't be in the position where the magazine is full,
> the chamber is empty, and 'r' refuses to do anything; and _this_ helps the
> internal implementation be just a single integer "number of shells in gun"
> and a flag "shell readied?".
This sounds good. It's a balance of simplicity, pedantic detail, and
realism. To me, realism with regards to weapons adds to the
survival-horror aspect and makes you feel more vulnerable and adds to
immersion. That's my opinion, though...and I guess you could call me a
gun-nut. :)
> If there are no shots in the gun, don't check the "shell readied" flag.
> (We should still unset it when unloading a shotgun). Increase the number
> of shells in the shotgun by 1, and set the "shell readied" flag. "You
> reload the shotgun and prepare to fire." This should maybe be a bit
> slower than the reload above.
Yes, this would be the time to load a round plus the time to pump the
action.
> Otherwise, there are shots in the gun, but the "shell readied" flag is not
> set. Set it. "You pump a shell into the shotgun." This should again be a
> quick reload - this gun is better than the breech-loader even when you
> don't have room to maneuver. Optionally, if this is the first time this
> case has come up during the game, print "You may also do this just by
> moving."
I would change the message to "You chamber a round" or "You pump the
shotgun". Pumping a shell into the shotgun sounds more like you're
loading it to me. Also keep in mind that a experienced shotgunner can
fire about 2-3 shots from a pump-action shotgun a second. It's pretty
quick to shoot, pump, shoot, pump, etc. The automatic pumping when
moving sounds good, though. It lets you pop around the corner, shoot,
then take cover while chambering another round and maybe topping off the
magazine.
Overall good post with some good ideas. It's good to see someone who
actually knows more about firearms than appears in video games and
movies. :)
J. W. McCall
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
><snip snip snip>
>>If the "shell readied" flag is set, increase the number of shells in the
>>gun by one if it is not at the limit. "You reload the shotgun with a
>>shotgun shell". This reload should probably be quicker than reloading the
>>other guns, since you'll have to do it a lot - but after all, 5 lots of it
>>could still take a while.
><snip snip snip>
Yes.
>Also, rather than "You pump a shell into the shotgun", you may want to
>change it to "you pump a shell into the chamber", as it is already in
>the shotgun, not just in a position where it can be fired.
Yes.
Kornel, both these message tweaks are quite sensible.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Tuesday, February.
David Damerell
>DAvid Damerell:
>>Both types of gun will tend to have a mechanical method, manually
>>operated, for loading the first bullet after the user inserts a fresh
>>magazine. This is probably part of the "reload" action in DoomRL.
>Something that most games (and most movies) get wrong is the fact that
>if you swap magazines *before* you're completely empty, there is no need
>to use the manual mechanical method, such as racking the slide on a
>pistol, or pumping a shotgun.
True. Indeed, a lot of action movies have more gratuitous racking that
that, such that the characters must necessarily have dropped half a dozen
bullets before the shooting starts. However, since they often have
infinitely large clips anyway in this kind of movie, I guess that doesn't
matter to them.
>I don't know if this is something you want to mess with, but it IMO adds
>some tactical elements as well as realism.
I don't think it would help DoomRL. The doomguy is assumed to be
competent; if you give him bullets and tell him to load the gun, he loads
the gun and doesn't drop any.
>I would personally like to see realistic implementing of magazines...you
>only have as many as you've collected, and if you only have one, you
>have to load up the magazine before you can use it each time. Of
>course, you'd rarely have only one magazine, even after you start. I
>realize this is probably too complicated and would annoy 99% of players,
>but I'm just saying what *I* think would be super-cool. :)
I think you can count me in that 99%; just adds a lot of dicking about in
inventory between fights.
That said, I did find it amusing that in Half-Life you can remove a
partly used magazine and insert a fresh one which, because of the number
of bullets you have, must necessarily contain some of the bullets from the
removed magazine. The ammo butler obviously works like lightning.
>>I propose the following; add a third shotgun. The shotgun sergeants carry
>>is the existing 1-shot affair, described as "a shotgun"; it's supposedly a
>>breech-loading 1-barrel shotgun. This is a weapon that's better than the
>>pistol, but obviously worse than the chaingun or the proposed submachine
>>gun. Maybe give it a modest damage boost.
>I personally don't understand the point of a 1-shot breech loading
>shotgun. They're a pain to have to reload after every shot, IMO.
To add a shotgun that can be got early on, but that isn't overly effective
then. It's just about gameplay. It's difficult to have a shotgun like
Doom's shotgun that's a workhorse weapon all game, because the difficulty
curve in DoomRL is completely different; in Doom, once you're good enough
at dodging, you can take your time killing monsters and don't need the
plasma rifle. Hence, two single shotguns; one bad one to be got early on,
and one that's good enough to remain useful until the plasma rifle
dominates.
>They'd also be completely out of place on Mars/Phobos/Deimos, wherever.
So is a double-barrel breech loader.
>Also keep in mind that a experienced shotgunner can
>fire about 2-3 shots from a pump-action shotgun a second.
When it comes down to it, the rate of fire has to be balanced for
gameplay, though; and there's no "real" timescale in DoomRL at all.
Kornel Kisielewicz
> quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisie...@gazeta.pl>:
> [DoomRL Shotguns]
>> This was discussed before. I actually am in the point that I have no
>> freaking idea what to do ;-)
>
> I thought I'd step back and write something about this. There's a
> summary proposal at the end.
M'kay. As you know I already agreed on more-less this system.
> First of all, what real guns are like. If you know that, skip ahead a
> bit.
I know ;-). We had military training at school, I know even how to
dissassemble and assemble again an AK-47 ;-).
> Both types of gun will tend to have a mechanical method, manually
> operated, for loading the first bullet after the user inserts a fresh
> magazine. This is probably part of the "reload" action in DoomRL.
Reload action basicaly meand "putting in a new magazine". There is an
abstraction that I wanted to follow because of simplification of the UI,
that the loose shells are assumed to be ready in magazines.
In the case of shotguns though I assumed reload meaning taking out a single
(or two) shells, puting them into the chamber, and cocking the shotgun. Of
course this assumes a shotgun with place for only one shell (which I agree
is unrealistic).
> I don't know how the damage penalty for spread at range affects
> shotgun damage compared to missing with any other gun, but it seems
> likely to me that DoomRL shotguns don't do enough damage. A chaingun
> burst does 5d6, average 17.5; a shotgun a mere 4d4, average 10 - and
> the chaingun can continue firing for longer than the proposed
> 4-magazine shotgun let alone the current 1-shot. Sure, monster armour
> enters the picture; but so does Son of a Bitch. Even the pistol does
> nearly as much damage as the shotgun, and can sustain fire for longer.
I want to enhance the shotgun damage after I add the range penalty.
> In Doom, letting off the double shotgun up a pinkbeast's nostrils
> kills it every time. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to be
> true in DoomRL (at point-blank range, as in Doom).
Agreed.
> I propose the following; add a third shotgun. The shotgun sergeants
> carry is the existing 1-shot affair, described as "a shotgun"; it's
> supposedly a breech-loading 1-barrel shotgun. This is a weapon that's
> better than the pistol, but obviously worse than the chaingun or the
> proposed submachine gun. Maybe give it a modest damage boost.
Hmm, so basicaly that would mean keeping the assault shotgun but changing it
to the new mode of fire?
> As a pickup that occurs before the chaingun and double SG, but maybe
> after the submachine gun, add a multi-shot magazine single shotgun.
What about the name for it? The one you spelled is way too long. Assault
shotgun seems fine :-D
> still like the "move to ready a fresh shell" idea. I know Kornel
> doesn't, so I'll tell you why; as it is, if this shotgun can fire on
> multiple successive turns and then reload, it's hard to differentiate
> it from the chaingun. One gun will just clearly be better, and you'll
> use that as long as you have ammo for it. This works with the plasma
> rifle, because although it is always better than the chaingun, there
> isn't enough ammo to use it all the time - and you get it so late on
> it doesn't dominate the game.
True.
> Precisely what I propose is this;
> This weapon is to do more damage in one turn than the chaingun, but
> less during sustained fire-and-reload.
M'kay.
** huge snip **
> I know this isn't the most straightforward thing to implement, but I
> do think it's the way to keep shotguns useful for most of the game,
> and give them a flavour that is distinct from chainguns and in
> keeping with Doom's shotguns.
There's only one problem with this I see -- many times while using this
people will hit 'r' repedately one after another. I already can hear those
unsatisfied people who cry -- why do we have to press this 'r' so much
(probably the same people that want ammo-auto-reload-pickup).
Maybe add another reload command (SHIFT-R) that reloads the shotgun
completely? (of course it would take time equal to the amount of missing
shells?
I don't like the number 5 -- it's so uneven... ;-). Maybe 4 or 6 instead?
Kornel Kisielewicz
> quoting Elethiomel <kk...@lllllll.mmmm>:
>> David Damerell wrote:
>> <snip snip snip>
>>> If the "shell readied" flag is set, increase the number of shells
>>> in the gun by one if it is not at the limit. "You reload the
>>> shotgun with a shotgun shell". This reload should probably be
>>> quicker than reloading the other guns, since you'll have to do it a
>>> lot - but after all, 5 lots of it could still take a while.
>> <snip snip snip>
>> Technically it should be "you load a shell into the shotgun",
>
> Yes.
>
>> Also, rather than "You pump a shell into the shotgun", you may want
>> to change it to "you pump a shell into the chamber", as it is
>> already in the shotgun, not just in a position where it can be fired.
>
> Yes.
>
> Kornel, both these message tweaks are quite sensible.
Noted.
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisie...@gazeta.pl>:
>>[DoomRL Shotguns]
>>operated, for loading the first bullet after the user inserts a fresh
>>magazine. This is probably part of the "reload" action in DoomRL.
>Reload action basicaly meand "putting in a new magazine". There is an
>abstraction that I wanted to follow because of simplification of the UI,
>that the loose shells are assumed to be ready in magazines.
I think this assumption is absolutely reasonable for guns with external
magazines (into which category we will assume the plasma rifle falls).
>>I propose the following; add a third shotgun. The shotgun sergeants
>>carry is the existing 1-shot affair, described as "a shotgun"; it's
>>supposedly a breech-loading 1-barrel shotgun.
>Hmm, so basicaly that would mean keeping the assault shotgun but changing it
>to the new mode of fire?
This is the existing single shotgun. Load it, it has one shell in. Fire
it, it's empty. It's called "a shotgun".
>>As a pickup that occurs before the chaingun and double SG, but maybe
>>after the submachine gun, add a multi-shot magazine single shotgun.
>What about the name for it? The one you spelled is way too long. Assault
>shotgun seems fine :-D
"pump-action shotgun", because that's what it is and that's what we had in
Doom.
>>I know this isn't the most straightforward thing to implement, but I
>>do think it's the way to keep shotguns useful for most of the game,
>>and give them a flavour that is distinct from chainguns and in
>>keeping with Doom's shotguns.
>There's only one problem with this I see -- many times while using this
>people will hit 'r' repedately one after another. I already can hear those
>unsatisfied people who cry -- why do we have to press this 'r' so much
>(probably the same people that want ammo-auto-reload-pickup).
Well, I was one of those people, but on reflection with the existing
shotgun one has to 'r' once for each shot fired...
>Maybe add another reload command (SHIFT-R) that reloads the shotgun
>completely? (of course it would take time equal to the amount of missing
>shells?
That would be useful. It should also first chamber a shell if that has not
been done.
>I don't like the number 5 -- it's so uneven... ;-). Maybe 4 or 6 instead?
Well, I would say 6, because I'm a shotgun fan. Generally I think the
magazine should be about big enough to dispatch a tomato without loading
fresh shells, but not a baron.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, February.
Kornel Kisielewicz
> quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisie...@gazeta.pl>:
>> Hmm, so basicaly that would mean keeping the assault shotgun but
>> changing it to the new mode of fire?
>
> This is the existing single shotgun. Load it, it has one shell in.
> Fire it, it's empty. It's called "a shotgun".
M'kay.
>>> As a pickup that occurs before the chaingun and double SG, but maybe
>>> after the submachine gun, add a multi-shot magazine single shotgun.
>> What about the name for it? The one you spelled is way too long.
>> Assault shotgun seems fine :-D
>
> "pump-action shotgun", because that's what it is and that's what we
> had in Doom.
I would prefer the name "assault shotgun" actually :-/
>> Maybe add another reload command (SHIFT-R) that reloads the shotgun
>> completely? (of course it would take time equal to the amount of
>> missing shells?
>
> That would be useful. It should also first chamber a shell if that
> has not been done.
I have a few additional ideas for that ;-).
>> I don't like the number 5 -- it's so uneven... ;-). Maybe 4 or 6
>> instead?
>
> Well, I would say 6, because I'm a shotgun fan. Generally I think the
> magazine should be about big enough to dispatch a tomato without
> loading fresh shells, but not a baron.
I wanted four, because shells in original Doom came in packs of four ;-).
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl)
"Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart body."
Martin Read
>David Damerell wrote:
>> "pump-action shotgun", because that's what it is and that's what we
>> had in Doom.
>
>I would prefer the name "assault shotgun" actually :-/
"Assault shotgun" would lead me to expect something like the drum-magazine
semi-automatic shotguns sometimes used by police forces. It certainly
wouldn't make me expect something that behaved like a pump-action shotgun.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
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Kornel Kisielewicz
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>> David Damerell wrote:
>>> "pump-action shotgun", because that's what it is and that's what we
>>> had in Doom.
>>
>> I would prefer the name "assault shotgun" actually :-/
>
> "Assault shotgun" would lead me to expect something like the
> drum-magazine semi-automatic shotguns sometimes used by police
> forces. It certainly wouldn't make me expect something that behaved
> like a pump-action shotgun.
So maybe Combat Shotgun?
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl)
"A random group of people is useless for anything except statistics" --
Anubis
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisie...@gazeta.pl>:
>>>Hmm, so basicaly that would mean keeping the assault shotgun but
>>>changing it to the new mode of fire?
>>This is the existing single shotgun. Load it, it has one shell in.
>>Fire it, it's empty. It's called "a shotgun".
>M'kay.
It's not very useful, but it's not meant to be very useful; you find it on
that first sergeant, and you discard it once you find a better weapon.
>>"pump-action shotgun", because that's what it is and that's what we
>>had in Doom.
>I would prefer the name "assault shotgun" actually :-/
That definitely conveys a sense of a semi-automatic "street sweeper",
which this is not. "Combat shotgun" is tolerable, since pump-action
shotguns are used by the military.
>>That would be useful. It should also first chamber a shell if that
>>has not been done.
>I have a few additional ideas for that ;-).
I know you like to surprise us, but _please_ let us know how this is going
to work. I don't fancy another round of proposals and gripes. :-)
>I wanted four, because shells in original Doom came in packs of four ;-).
If it's enough to be useful, is what I'd say. (But, 5 is a 4-round
magazine plus one chambered...)
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Friday, February.