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YASD or YAAD? Crawl Laybrinth Death
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Rachel Elizabeth Dillon  
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 More options Apr 25 2008, 8:46 pm
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.misc
From: Rachel Elizabeth Dillon <rac...@akrasiac.org>
Date: 26 Apr 2008 00:46:22 GMT
Local: Fri, Apr 25 2008 8:46 pm
Subject: YASD or YAAD? Crawl Laybrinth Death
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rax/morgue-rax-20080425-201356.txt

So. There I was, in a labyrinth, with a deck of cards sitting there.
I said "Hmm, let me exhaust this deck of cards, maybe I will get a shuffle
or something" and drew. I got warpwright... which put a teleportation trap
between me and the stairwell, like so:

 ######
 +@^.<#
 ######

I was an Okawarite, and had no means of crossing the boundary. Had I been
able to blink, I would have been guaranteed success with the door closed;
unfortunately, I used my only blink scroll with the door open, and my
blink was made uncontrolled. [1] So I was left with three ways to get out
of the labyrinth:

 * Blink from the safe square.
 * Get banished.
 * Get a teleport into that area (1/1800 chance, according to ##crawl)

Okawaru penance only sends you random monsters; I abandoned him anyway
in the hope that a monster would have a distortion weapon and so that
I would have some food source. I had a book of War Chants on me, though no
spells memorized [2], so I memorized Berzerker Rage, put on plate mail,
and proceeded to Glow myself into oblivion in the hope of picking up a
blink mutation. I did not.

Okawaru only sent enemies once, and I killed them without getting a weapon
of distortion. I starved to death. This leaves me with two questions:

 1. How can I avoid this ever happening to me again?

The answers, to me, are either "don't draw from decks ever again"
(it could also, apparently, have been tomb and put a wall in place
or something) or "get spoiled on decks," which I had avoided doing.
I'll probably do both.

 2. Is this something that should be avoidable or escapable if
    someone else does it?

This is a tricky question. On the one hand, this is a really awful way
to die, and I think most people would have been way more upset than I
am, which is certainly not "totally chill." [3] On the other hand, what
could be made different? The teleportation trap is fine, the card is (I
think) fine, and the labyrinth is fine. The only suggestion I can come
up with that I don't discard as intolerable is putting an Abyss portal
in every Labyrinth (or, if you want to be really harsh, and Abyss or a
Pan portal...). But I don't really like that either.

I'm curious if anyone has any answers to either of those two questions;
as far as whether it's YASD or YAAD it's probably both, since playing
with the deck was stupid but being left in an untenable position by it
was annoying.

Also, it is drinking time now.

-r.

[1] I remember using controlled blink to cross lava in a labyrinth before,
so I just assumed it would be fine.  Was this in a dream? In 0.2?

[2] Yes, it was a CeEE with no spells memorized. I was playing it because
it was the second-lowest-scoring combo on CAO, not because I wanted to
play an earth elementalist. I totally have the high score for it now! :)

[3] Though, when you get down to it, it's just a game. :)


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dpeg  
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 More options Apr 25 2008, 9:05 pm
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.misc
From: dpeg <pl...@zio.mathematik.hu-berlin.de>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:05:37 +0200
Local: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: YASD or YAAD? Crawl Laybrinth Death

Rachel Elizabeth Dillon wrote:
> So. There I was, in a labyrinth, with a deck of cards sitting there.
> I said "Hmm, let me exhaust this deck of cards, maybe I will get a shuffle
> or something" and drew. I got warpwright... which put a teleportation trap
> between me and the stairwell, like so:

>  ######
>  +@^.<#
>  ######

Pretty bad place to be. :/

>  1. How can I avoid this ever happening to me again?

Stand on the stairs before drawing next time.
Carry a renewable source of blink. (Spell, randart.)
Carry a way of self-banishing (weapon of distortion).

> The answers, to me, are either "don't draw from decks ever again"
> (it could also, apparently, have been tomb and put a wall in place
> or something) or "get spoiled on decks," which I had avoided doing.
> I'll probably do both.

I think this is a bit unfair towards the decks :)
It is oldschool thinking that cards should be drawn in labyrinths (this
refers to b26 Nemelex scumming which is abolished now). As it is, the lab
is a special place, so chances to completely mess up are just higher.

>  2. Is this something that should be avoidable or escapable if
>     someone else does it?

The complexity is probably too high to avoid self-cornering like this in all
cases.

> The only suggestion I can come up with that I don't discard as intolerable
> is putting an Abyss portal in every Labyrinth

Which would be a bit artificial.
I have no really neat solution to this (though there might be some -- I am
just saying that in my opinion there is no way to prevent _all_ tragic
deaths of similar style).

Thanks for taking it so cooly. (There was no whining at all!)
David


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Rachel Elizabeth Dillon  
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 More options Apr 25 2008, 9:19 pm
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.misc
From: Rachel Elizabeth Dillon <rac...@akrasiac.org>
Date: 26 Apr 2008 01:19:15 GMT
Local: Fri, Apr 25 2008 9:19 pm
Subject: Re: YASD or YAAD? Crawl Laybrinth Death
On 2008-04-26, dpeg <pl...@zio.mathematik.hu-berlin.de> wrote:

Also I could have carried my notele randart falchion.

>> The answers, to me, are either "don't draw from decks ever again"
>> (it could also, apparently, have been tomb and put a wall in place
>> or something) or "get spoiled on decks," which I had avoided doing.
>> I'll probably do both.

> I think this is a bit unfair towards the decks :)
> It is oldschool thinking that cards should be drawn in labyrinths (this
> refers to b26 Nemelex scumming which is abolished now). As it is, the lab
> is a special place, so chances to completely mess up are just higher.

Decks have caused me nothing but trouble even when playing Nemelex.
I am happy to blame me and not decks because I have seen other people
use them intelligently, but something about the interaction fails, and
I think I and my win percentage are probably better off if I avoid them.

>> The only suggestion I can come up with that I don't discard as intolerable
>> is putting an Abyss portal in every Labyrinth

> Which would be a bit artificial.

Yes.

> I have no really neat solution to this (though there might be some -- I am
> just saying that in my opinion there is no way to prevent _all_ tragic
> deaths of similar style).

Agreed!

> Thanks for taking it so cooly. (There was no whining at all!)

I'm confident in my ability and glad to still have things to learn.
Had it been an upcoming first or second potential win instead of number
somethingteen, I might not have taken it as well :)

-r.


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zaim...@zaimoni.com  
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 More options May 1 2008, 3:11 pm
Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.misc
From: zaim...@zaimoni.com
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, May 1 2008 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: YASD or YAAD? Crawl Laybrinth Death
On Apr 25, 7:46 pm, Rachel Elizabeth Dillon <rac...@akrasiac.org>
wrote:

Playing a few Nemelexites would have been enough warning even without
spoilers.  (Warpwright is fairly common.)

Due to Warpwright and its relatives, I consider drawing from an
unloaded deck next to a graph-theoretic cutpoint "asking the RNG to
flatten you".  YASD if unanticipated, YAAD if anticipated.

>  2. Is this something that should be avoidable or escapable if
>     someone else does it?

> This is a tricky question. On the one hand, this is a really awful way
> to die, and I think most people would have been way more upset than I
> am, which is certainly not "totally chill." [3]

I don't see an in-game appropriate way for a newbie non-Nemelexite to
see this coming, other than to implement an item memory for specific
cards seen.  That doesn't handle this being the first deck seen in
game.  (The card-item memory won't help unless Warpwright or related
cards have been seen already).

As a matter of appropriate background knowledge, I do not think
detailed documentation is in-theme for non-Nemelexites; thus, it
doesn't belong in the manual. Even in-game, any detailed documentation
should be keyed to religious history.  (Say, maximum ever Nemelex
piety.  Current Nemelex piety is also defensible, and doesn't require
any new data structures.  Or maybe time spent as a Nemelexite.)

> On the other hand, what
> could be made different? The teleportation trap is fine, the card is (I
> think) fine, and the labyrinth is fine. The only suggestion I can come
> up with that I don't discard as intolerable is putting an Abyss portal
> in every Labyrinth (or, if you want to be really harsh, and Abyss or a
> Pan portal...). But I don't really like that either.

Escape portals concede that the Labyrinth is broken; they shouldn't be
there.

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