DCSS YASD Spriggan Thief of Nemelex
George Moyer
runes. Here's my thoughts:
Nemelex - Next time don't just sacrifice everything - definitely
build up a stockpile of consumables to scrap to try and get decks of
wonder. I only got one this game, but that 20k exp is so sick. Also,
some decks he gives you are worse than useless - like 'dungeons'
summoning an orange statue that almost stat-drained me to death. I
should just throw those away. Also that unidentified escape deck that
sent me to my doom in elf land :(
I really like this god though, I just end up with 15 summoning decks.
He might just not be a good god, I noticed he was only used once in
the top 3 players in the CAO tourney (like 1 player 1 time, not each
player 1 time)
Should I have gone into that ziggurat or lvl 8 of vault instead? I'll
take any advice you have :)
255049 trig the Swashbuckler (level 20, -36/114 HPs)
Began as a Spriggan Thief on Nov 3, 2009.
Was the Champion of Nemelex Xobeh.
Killed from afar by a deep elf sorcerer (61 damage)
... with a blast of hellfire
... on Level 7 of the Elven Halls on Nov 4, 2009.
The game lasted 07:51:51 (84210 turns).
trig the Swashbuckler (Spriggan Thief) Turns: 84210, Time: 07:51:52
HP -36/114 AC 11 Str 8 Exp: 20/444073 (11), need:
14826
MP 34/35 EV 30 Int 18 God: Nemelex Xobeh ******
Gold 2420 SH 0 Dex 22 Spells: 4 memorised, 15 levels
left
Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + B - +8 sabre (speed) {=p}
Res.Cold : . . . Warding : + x - +2 orc robe {rF+} {=p}
Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : . (shield restricted)
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . q - +0 cap {Int+3}
Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . W - +2 cloak "Schoojof" {Str+1,
=p}
(gloves unavailable)
Sust.Abil.: . Rnd.Telep. : . (boots unavailable)
Res.Mut. : . Ctrl.Telep.: . f - amulet of warding
Res.Slow : . Levitation : + Q - ring of levitation
Saprovore : . . . Ctrl.Flight: . M - +3 ring of protection
@: levitating, very quick, incredibly resistant to magic,
incredibly stealthy
A: unfitting armour, herbivore 3, slow metabolism 3, speed 3, see
invisible, teleport at will 1, claws 1, AC +1, Str -1, Dex -1
a: Teleportation, Draw One, Peek at Two, Triple Draw, Mark Four,
Stack Five, Renounce Religion, Stop Levitating
You visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and saw 64 of its levels.
You visited 1 Labyrinth.
You collected 6815 gold pieces.
You spent 4504 gold pieces at shops.
Inventory:
Hand weapons
i - the +1,+3 quarterstaff "Rinyq" {Noisy +Rage +Lev +Map MR}
(You took it off a deep elf sorcerer on level 7 of the Elven
Halls)
It increases your resistance to enchantments.
It lets you levitate.
It lets you go berserk.
It lets you sense your surroundings.
It makes noises.
p - a +3,+2 dwarven dagger of protection (quivered) {=p}
y - a +1,+0 elven spear {=p}
B - a +8,+8 sabre of speed (weapon) {=p}
U - the +1,+3 dagger of trig's Extermination {+Blink rC++ rN+ MR Stlth
+, =p}
(You found it in a Labyrinth)
It greatly protects you from cold.
It protects you from negative energy.
It increases your resistance to enchantments.
It lets you blink.
It makes you much more stealthy.
Armour
q - a +0 cap of intelligence (worn)
x - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn) {=p}
W - the +2 cloak "Schoojof" (worn) {Str+1, =p}
(You found it on level 17 of the Dungeon)
It affects your strength (+1).
Magical devices
E - a wand of digging (3)
Comestibles
r - 4 bread rations
Scrolls
a - 2 scrolls of remove curse
s - 5 scrolls of teleportation
L - 4 scrolls of identify
Jewellery
b - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
d - an uncursed ring of teleportation
f - an amulet of warding (around neck)
h - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
m - a +5 ring of dexterity {=p}
u - an uncursed ring of magical power
v - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
z - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
C - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
D - an uncursed ring of life protection
F - an uncursed ring of teleport control
I - an uncursed ring of wizardry
J - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities
M - a +3 ring of protection (left hand)
P - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
Q - a ring of levitation (right hand)
R - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
T - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
Miscellaneous
c - an ornate deck of destruction {drawn: 2} {god gift}
g - a plain deck of escape {drawn: 1} {god gift}
j - a legendary deck of destruction {drawn: 4} {god gift}
k - a plain deck of escape {god gift}
l - an ornate deck of escape {drawn: 1} {god gift}
n - an ornate deck of escape {drawn: 2} {god gift}
o - a plain deck of war
t - an ornate deck of escape {drawn: 5} {god gift}
A - a legendary deck of summonings {drawn: 1} {god gift}
H - a plain deck of defence
K - a lantern of shadows
N - a legendary deck of summonings {Foxfire, left: 4} {god gift}
S - a crystal ball of seeing
Y - an ornate deck of dungeons {god gift}
Skills:
+ Level 9 Fighting
+ Level 20 Short Blades
- Level 1 Crossbows
+ Level 16 Dodging
+ Level 20 Stealth
+ Level 17 Stabbing
+ Level 11 Traps & Doors
+ Level 6 Spellcasting
+ Level 6 Enchantments
- Level 6 Translocations
+ Level 13 Evocations
You had 15 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:
Your Spells Type Power Success
Level
a - Blink Tloc N/A Excellent 2
b - Slow Ench #####..... Excellent 3
d - Haste Ench #####..... Terrible 6
e - Teleport Self Tloc N/A Good 5
Overview of the Dungeon
Branches:
Temple: D:4 Orc : D:11 Elf : Orc:3 Lair : D:11
Swamp : Lair:6 Slime : Lair:8 Snake : Lair:6 Hive : D:11
Vault : D:17 Blade : Vault:6 Crypt : Vault:4
Altars:
Zin: Snake:5, Vault:5
The Shining One: D:11, D:21, Lair:5, Vault:2
Xom: D:2
Trog: D:14, Orc:1, Vault:1
Portals:
Hell: D:15 D:21 D:22
Ziggurat: Lair:2 (3530 gp)
thiskidrob
If you can survive the early game, decks of wonder (XP) are the best
for mid game.
Decks of dungeons are best for the endgame when you are already at XP
level 27. At that point, wonder is no good. And decks of dungeons at
this point can create entrances to a bazaar, where you can spend your
thousands of GP on really good stuff and prep for the endgame...
David Ploog
> Nemelex - Next time don't just sacrifice everything - definitely
> build up a stockpile of consumables to scrap to try and get decks of
> wonder. I only got one this game, but that 20k exp is so sick. Also,
> some decks he gives you are worse than useless - like 'dungeons'
> summoning an orange statue that almost stat-drained me to death.
Not worthless. Learn to use your divine powers, or prepare for bad
effects.
> He might just not be a good god, I noticed he was only used once in
> the top 3 players in the CAO tourney (like 1 player 1 time, not each
> player 1 time)
As far as I see it, the god is probably overpowered. Also, it's the god
where (spoiler) knowledge helps the most. I hope Nemelex is still better
(this means more fun, not more powerful) than the old incarnation.
Note that negative card effects are a must. Otherwise the whole approach
of "effects and piety from cards" would be completely broken.
David
George Moyer
> Note that negative card effects are a must. Otherwise the whole approach
> of "effects and piety from cards" would be completely broken.
Word. From thenceforth I shall draw three.
Öö Tiib
> Nemelex - Next time don't just sacrifice everything - definitely
> build up a stockpile of consumables to scrap to try and get decks of
> wonder.
Wonder is not so good deck as most seem to suggest. Spoiled people
sacrifice food as first thing to get at least one of them but use it
only once when they have draw three.
> I only got one this game, but that 20k exp is so sick. Also,
> some decks he gives you are worse than useless - like 'dungeons'
> summoning an orange statue that almost stat-drained me to death.
This is actually one of the best decks. Pure power of changing the
world around you.
> I should just throw those away. Also that unidentified escape deck that
> sent me to my doom in elf land :(
Any deck can put you into unexpected situation that may kill you if
you lack plan b. I think ~2% cards are odd, out of deck cards. Only
stacked decks are safe.
> I really like this god though, I just end up with 15 summoning decks.
You get only half of the XP if you let your summons to kill too much
for you.
> He might just not be a good god, I noticed he was only used once in
> the top 3 players in the CAO tourney (like 1 player 1 time, not each
> player 1 time)
Card handling interface is more clicks and reading than anything else.
Powerful random help that requires constant attention makes you tired
and Nemelex is also risky. As result it is possible to win more games
per week with aid of Vehumet than with Nemelex despite Vehumet is
significally weaker god than Nemelex.
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, George Moyer wrote:
>
>> Nemelex - Next time don't just sacrifice everything - definitely
>> build up a stockpile of consumables to scrap to try and get decks of
>> wonder. I only got one this game, but that 20k exp is so sick. Also,
>> some decks he gives you are worse than useless - like 'dungeons'
>> summoning an orange statue that almost stat-drained me to death.
>
> Not worthless. Learn to use your divine powers, or prepare for bad
> effects.
>
>> He might just not be a good god, I noticed he was only used once in
>> the top 3 players in the CAO tourney (like 1 player 1 time, not each
>> player 1 time)
>
> As far as I see it, the god is probably overpowered. Also, it's the god
> where (spoiler) knowledge helps the most. I hope Nemelex is still better
> (this means more fun, not more powerful) than the old incarnation.
Late-game overpowered, yes. Early game I would disagree; tournament
players going for streaks would be unlikely to take Nemelex for this
reason. I expect you'll see the same with Xom for similar reasons.
He's clearly very useful in the extended endgame, but again, the
tournament didn't encourage players to do more than a couple of those,
and there are other gods who also provide strong advantages there.
I played through an extended Nemelex game at David's insistence and I now
have to agree that the god is powerful, but I still would never take him
in a tournament game and don't find him terribly fun; David would probably
argue that I am a minmaxing powergamer, which may or may not be true. ;)
-r.
David Ploog
> On 2009-11-05, David Ploog <pl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, George Moyer wrote:
>>
>>> Nemelex - Next time don't just sacrifice everything - definitely
>>> build up a stockpile of consumables to scrap to try and get decks of
>>> wonder. I only got one this game, but that 20k exp is so sick. Also,
>>> some decks he gives you are worse than useless - like 'dungeons'
>>> summoning an orange statue that almost stat-drained me to death.
>>
>> Not worthless. Learn to use your divine powers, or prepare for bad
>> effects.
>>
>>> He might just not be a good god, I noticed he was only used once in
>>> the top 3 players in the CAO tourney (like 1 player 1 time, not each
>>> player 1 time)
>>
>> As far as I see it, the god is probably overpowered. Also, it's the god
>> where (spoiler) knowledge helps the most. I hope Nemelex is still better
>> (this means more fun, not more powerful) than the old incarnation.
>
> Late-game overpowered, yes. Early game I would disagree; tournament
> players going for streaks would be unlikely to take Nemelex for this
> reason.
The reasons probably are that (a) Nemelex is a god who dominates your
game, (b) is heavy on player input and (c) becomes better the longer you.
These are all drawbacks and we're aware of them. But the idea of a god
playing with cards is very cool and we wanted to keep that. Note that the
old Nemelex was much worse in all of the three aspects mentioned above.
> I played through an extended Nemelex game at David's insistence and I now
> have to agree that the god is powerful, but I still would never take him
> in a tournament game and don't find him terribly fun;
Thank you for playing him. Do you have ideas how to make him fun?
> David would probably argue that I am a minmaxing powergamer, which may
> or may not be true. ;)
True, of course :)
I would think that Nemelex is a god that is especially interesting for the
minmaxing powergamers, so I am at a loss now. Do you have some ideas how
to make Nemelex more fun? Would more decks and cards help, or is a matter
of the basic mechanics?
David
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009, Rachel Elizabeth Dillon wrote:
>> On 2009-11-05, David Ploog <pl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> As far as I see it, the god is probably overpowered. Also, it's the god
>>> where (spoiler) knowledge helps the most. I hope Nemelex is still better
>>> (this means more fun, not more powerful) than the old incarnation.
>>
>> Late-game overpowered, yes. Early game I would disagree; tournament
>> players going for streaks would be unlikely to take Nemelex for this
>> reason.
>
> The reasons probably are that (a) Nemelex is a god who dominates your
> game, (b) is heavy on player input and (c) becomes better the longer you.
>
> These are all drawbacks and we're aware of them. But the idea of a god
> playing with cards is very cool and we wanted to keep that. Note that the
> old Nemelex was much worse in all of the three aspects mentioned above.
I absolutely agree with this.
>> I played through an extended Nemelex game at David's insistence and I now
>> have to agree that the god is powerful, but I still would never take him
>> in a tournament game and don't find him terribly fun;
>
> Thank you for playing him. Do you have ideas how to make him fun?
I think the answer might be "Don't be me."
>> David would probably argue that I am a minmaxing powergamer, which may
>> or may not be true. ;)
>
> True, of course :)
>
> I would think that Nemelex is a god that is especially interesting for the
> minmaxing powergamers, so I am at a loss now. Do you have some ideas how
> to make Nemelex more fun? Would more decks and cards help, or is a matter
> of the basic mechanics?
He is not deterministic. If you are a powergamer, or at least if you
are my kind of powergamer, you want to know as best as possible what is
going to happen every time you press a button, so that you can minimize
the potential space of things that might happen next turn and make easy
decisions. Nemelex is useful to me in getting maximal equipment because I
can largely ignore him, periodically drawing in safe situations in order
to keep piety up, and get scads of labyrinth/bazaar portals in the late
game (as well as overflowing levels with water and traps). He is not
useful to me in difficult situations --- I can maybe prime a few cards,
but even most of those have risk involved or are duplicating the effects
of other escape items --- because I don't know what I'm going to get.
So yes, I can use him to have many items in the late game, but if I just
want lots of items, I can go Okawaru and get haste and might spam the
whole time as well, which _do_ significantly simplify the problem space
of a dangerous situation.
Any situation where I could get a small improvement over a 50% chance
of a big improvement and a 50% chance of a big problem, I'll take the
small improvement. One of the reasons I like Crawl is that there are
always tradeoffs, and most actions have risk. Because of that, I shy
away from Nemelex and Xom, who add even more risk. Other players
may feel differently.
-r.
Martin Read
>Any situation where I could get a small improvement over a 50% chance
>of a big improvement and a 50% chance of a big problem, I'll take the
>small improvement. One of the reasons I like Crawl is that there are
>always tradeoffs, and most actions have risk. Because of that, I shy
>away from Nemelex and Xom, who add even more risk. Other players
>may feel differently.
In short: You're a powergamer, not a munchkin :)
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
tenaya
>
> Should I have gone into that ziggurat or lvl 8 of vault instead? I'll
> take any advice you have :)
>
I don't know who said it, but someone recently called Ziggurat "27
levels of pain". I've been there only twice (and survived) and I like
his description. Of course it is definitely worth a try just for the
fun but it may end your game prematurely. I won't spoil any more of
the fun but it is different than the rest of the dungeon in a good
(i.e. challenging) way.
There should probably be extra points, rather than just recognition,
for Ziggurat raiders in the August CAO tournament.