Problems w/Poison Resistance
Remsleep
all, but it seems like scorpions routinely poison him. I've never seen this
before; AFAICT, PR is binary. Has it been tweaked/nerfed in the most recent
release?
I'm using the latest version with Imps, etc.
Remsleep
Twisted One
The latest version of what?! It doesn't say what game you're playing, in
the subject line or in the body text. It sounds like it might be Crawl,
but I'm not going to make any assumptions since this is rgrmisc and the
things that you mention, such as snakes and scorpions and rings of
poison resistance, are fairly generic in roguelikes. Angband has them,
for instance, though it doesn't have "orc fighter" as a race/class
combination, with "half-orc warrior" coming closer. ADOM may well have
even orc fighters...
--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Erik Piper
My hunch is that some bug surrounding poison resistance was introduced
in the "Oh my" patch. I don't play it myself, so I can't say anything
more than that. You might want to contact Gavin Duggan, who wrote that
patch. I don't know his e-mail offhand, but there are various
communication gadgets for contacting him on this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crawl-dev/message/5518
...which contains his post to crawl-dev regarding the patch.
Cheers,
Erik
Remsleep
"Twisted One" <twist...@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:N96dnepppMz...@rogers.com...
> Remsleep wrote:
>> My orc fighter found a =oPR early in the game. Snakes are now no threat
>> at all, but it seems like scorpions routinely poison him. I've never
>> seen this before; AFAICT, PR is binary. Has it been tweaked/nerfed in
>> the most recent release?
>>
>> I'm using the latest version with Imps, etc.
>
> The latest version of what?! It doesn't say what game you're playing, in
> the subject line or in the body text. It sounds like it might be Crawl,
> but I'm not going to make any assumptions since this is rgrmisc and the
> things that you mention, such as snakes and scorpions and rings of poison
> resistance, are fairly generic in roguelikes. Angband has them, for
> instance, though it doesn't have "orc fighter" as a race/class
> combination, with "half-orc warrior" coming closer. ADOM may well have
> even orc fighters...
Jeez, some people. Yes, it's crawl, and more perspicacious readers figured
that out. Failing that, a half-civilized reply might have simply asked, "Do
you mean crawl? It's not specified in the subject line," and left out the
gratuitous sarcasm dump. You obviously have a lot of time on your hands.
Why don't you spend it meditating on ways to avoid being a net-nazi.
Remsleep
Twisted One
> "Twisted One" <twist...@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:N96dnepppMz...@rogers.com...
>
>>Remsleep wrote:
>>
>>>My orc fighter found a =oPR early in the game. Snakes are now no threat
>>>at all, but it seems like scorpions routinely poison him. I've never
>>>seen this before; AFAICT, PR is binary. Has it been tweaked/nerfed in
>>>the most recent release?
>>>
>>>I'm using the latest version with Imps, etc.
>>
>>The latest version of what?! It doesn't say what game you're playing, in
>>the subject line or in the body text. It sounds like it might be Crawl,
>>but I'm not going to make any assumptions since this is rgrmisc and the
>>things that you mention, such as snakes and scorpions and rings of poison
>>resistance, are fairly generic in roguelikes. Angband has them, for
>>instance, though it doesn't have "orc fighter" as a race/class
>>combination, with "half-orc warrior" coming closer. ADOM may well have
>>even orc fighters...
>
> Jeez, some people. Yes, it's crawl, and more perspicacious readers figured
> that out.
How -- by mind reading? As I stated in my post, there's nothing truly
unique to crawl mentioned in the original post -- not one thing to
permit the conclusion to be drawn with 100% certainty that you made.
Lars Kecke
> Remsleep wrote:
>
>> My orc fighter found a =oPR early in the game. Snakes are now no
>> threat at all, but it seems like scorpions routinely poison him. I've
>> never seen this before; AFAICT, PR is binary. Has it been
>> tweaked/nerfed in the most recent release?
>>
>> I'm using the latest version with Imps, etc.
> My hunch is that some bug surrounding poison resistance was introduced
> in the "Oh my" patch.
No bug. A feature. Poisoning comes in different sizes (sick, very sick,
extremely sick). Each level of poison resist reduces the level of
poisoning by 1, so if you have enough poison in you to become "very
sick" the ring reduces the effects to "sick" but you still take damage.
Lars
Erik Piper
> Remsleep wrote:
[an unmarked Crawl query with no mention of Crawl]
>> "Twisted One" <twist...@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:N96dnepppMz...@rogers.com...
[it's impossible to tell what this query is]
>>> Remsleep wrote:
[it is, and I'm angry because you stated that so rudely]
> How -- by mind reading? As I stated in my post, there's nothing truly
> unique to crawl mentioned in the original post -- not one thing to
> permit the conclusion to be drawn with 100% certainty that you made.
This is untrue. None other of the roguelikes regularly discussed in
r.g.r.m. have a "recent release with imps." Or Orc Fighters, for that
matter. While [Gamename] markings help people filter out traffic not
concerning their game and thus it's a shame that it was missing, anyone
knowledgable enough about Crawl to help with his query would, I believe,
recognize those traits.
And in my opinion you you indeed stated your point rudely, which if
nothing else is no help in convincing him of that point... you can catch
more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Erik
Twisted One
>> How -- by mind reading? As I stated in my post, there's nothing truly
>> unique to crawl mentioned in the original post -- not one thing to
>> permit the conclusion to be drawn with 100% certainty that you made.
>
> This is untrue. None other of the roguelikes regularly discussed in
> r.g.r.m. have a "recent release with imps." Or Orc Fighters, for that
> matter.
This is irrelevant. The person could be playing a roguelike that isn't
"regularly" discussed in rgrm. A "recent" release is also rather vague
-- depending on how frequently the particular roguelike is updated, its
players might consider "recent" to mean only in the last week, or
anytime in the last year. Also, to be 100% certain someone would have to
know with certainty that no other roguelikes in existence met any of
these criteria -- i.e., they'd have to know about every roguelike with a
playable version released. I doubt anyone can lay claim to that degree
of knowledge -- not with absolute certainty that no other exists that
they missed bumping into anywhere.
Rubinstein
>
> "Twisted One" <twist...@gmail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:N96dnepppMz...@rogers.com...
>> Remsleep wrote:
>>> My orc fighter found a =oPR early in the game. Snakes are now no
>>> threat at all, but it seems like scorpions routinely poison him.
>>> I've never seen this before; AFAICT, PR is binary. Has it been
>>> tweaked/nerfed in the most recent release?
>>>
>>> I'm using the latest version with Imps, etc.
>>
>> The latest version of what?! It doesn't say what game you're playing,
>> in the subject line or in the body text. It sounds like it might be
>> Crawl, but I'm not going to make any assumptions since this is
>> rgrmisc and the things that you mention, such as snakes and scorpions
>> and rings of poison resistance, are fairly generic in roguelikes.
>> Angband has them, for instance, though it doesn't have "orc fighter"
>> as a race/class combination, with "half-orc warrior" coming closer.
>> ADOM may well have even orc fighters...
I'm probably one of the least friends of Twisted One, but here I have to
agree with him. And he surely doesn't deserve the attribute "net-nazi".
Try something less harshly (like ass-hole) next time, if it really must
be at all.
> Jeez, some people. Yes, it's crawl, and more perspicacious readers
> figured that out. Failing that, a half-civilized reply might have
> simply asked, "Do you mean crawl?
It's rather the other way around: a half-civilized *question* would have
used a tag like [Crawl] at least. In a multi-game group like r.g.r.m.
this really makes sense, since many people only want to read posts of
the game they are currently interested in. It has nothing to do with
playing net-police.
Rubinstein
Sherm Pendley
> I doubt anyone can lay claim to that degree
> of knowledge -- not with absolute certainty
So what? It's easy to make a reasonably likely guess. Please take your
drivel elsewhere, Idiot Boy.
sherm--
--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
Remsleep
"Erik Piper" <erNO...@skyAM.cz> wrote in message
news:d5g51p$olo$1...@domitilla.aioe.org...
>
> My hunch is that some bug surrounding poison resistance was introduced in
> the "Oh my" patch. I don't play it myself, so I can't say anything more
> than that. You might want to contact Gavin Duggan, who wrote that patch. I
> don't know his e-mail offhand, but there are various communication gadgets
> for contacting him on this page:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crawl-dev/message/5518
>
> ...which contains his post to crawl-dev regarding the patch.
>
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
Remsleep
Erik Piper
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>>> How -- by mind reading? As I stated in my post, there's nothing truly
>>> unique to crawl mentioned in the original post -- not one thing to
>>> permit the conclusion to be drawn with 100% certainty that you made.
>>
>>
>> This is untrue. None other of the roguelikes regularly discussed in
>> r.g.r.m. have a "recent release with imps." Or Orc Fighters, for that
>> matter.
>
>
> This is irrelevant. The person could be playing a roguelike that isn't
> "regularly" discussed in rgrm.
This is extremely relevant. The likelihood of that person playing the
roguelike is inversely proportionate to how regularly it's discussed at
rgrm.
> A "recent" release is also rather vague
> -- depending on how frequently the particular roguelike is updated, its
> players might consider "recent" to mean only in the last week, [...]
The several players who immediately recognized what he meant, and knew
which release was in question, make it clear that you are, in fact, wrong.
> or anytime in the last year. Also, to be 100% certain someone would have to
> know with certainty that no other roguelikes in existence met any of
> these criteria -- i.e., they'd have to know about every roguelike with a
> playable version released. [Etc.]
That, my friend, is simple silliness.
Erik
Remsleep
"Remsleep" <reply@this_newsgroup.ok> wrote in message
news:6bPee.4538$pe3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
And here's the result (posted with permission):
-------
Hi Remsleep,
I do follow rec games roguelikes occasionally, but not regularly, so it's
definately best to email me directly with questions. If you'd like, feel
free to post this to either usenet or the yahoo group if you think other
people would want to know.
I did change poison resistance in the same patch as the imps... although it
actually had more to do with the demonspawn mutation/draconian progression
changes. Where as immunity to toxins used to be, as you pointed out, a
binary attribute, it's now a 3-step resistance like with heat and col (Note
that it is also stronger in some ways; see below).
Instead of preventing poisoning from happening in the first place, poison
resistance now gives some protection from the damage you would take (Ie: the
poison is present in your system; your level of resistance reduces how much
you react to it). The first level gives approximately 50% resistance to
poison; you'll take half as much damage on average, but it's stochastic.
Light poisoning (such as from small snakes) still isn't much of a threat...
multiple poisonings is dangerous though, but much easier to deal with than
without any protection.
The second step reduces damage by half again.. you'll only take damage one
quarter of the time, which basically reduces it to a non-threat unless
you're very heavily poisoned. Most people naturally heal more than they'll
take at this rate.
Three levels of poison resistance is special in that poisons do zero damage
while in your system, and it will also prevent you from being poisoned in
the first place.
In order to balance the fact that this change makes poison resistance items
weaker (although it makes poison resistance as an inherent trait stronger
because it's harder to come by), resistance to toxins now also grants some
level of protection from paralysis (such as from wasps and the like). Given
that paralysis is one of the more dangerous threats to mid-high level
characters (especially with newer
players), this is a fairly powerful gain. Moreover, it is possible
to gain nourishment from poisoned meat with only one or two levels of poison
resistance.. and the invigorating nature of these meats has some nice
bonuses if you're immune to their effects.
Multiple levels of poison resistance can be gained by wearing two or more
items (rings, artifacts, etc), possibly in combination with the spell of the
same name (which was previously pretty useless) and one or more levels of
the relevant demonspawn mutation or draconian resistance.
Hope that explains the effects you've been seeing. I'm glad you've enjoyed
the mods.. let me know if you have any other questions :)
Gavin
-------
Remsleep
Remsleep
"Rubinstein" <picom...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:d5gcfo$7o6$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> It's rather the other way around: a half-civilized *question* would have
> used a tag like [Crawl] at least. In a multi-game group like r.g.r.m.
> this really makes sense, since many people only want to read posts of
> the game they are currently interested in. It has nothing to do with
> playing net-police.
>
If I were a serial post-non-tagger, that might be warranted, but since I
have maybe 10 posts total in the group over the last 3 or so years and this
is the first one not tagged (at least since the group started talking about
games other than Crawl), I think that's a bit much. If T1's original reply
had simply asked, "Are you asking about Crawl, or some other game?", then I
would have said, "Oops, my bad, a thousand pardons," tagged my post
appropriately, and moved on. My non-tagging was accidental, but the
gratuitous sarcasm dump was deliberate.
As to your point about filtering, I wasn't forcing anyone to read my post,
whether tagged or not.
Remsleep
Twisted One
>> This is irrelevant. The person could be playing a roguelike that isn't
>> "regularly" discussed in rgrm.
>
> This is extremely relevant. The likelihood of that person playing the
> roguelike is inversely proportionate to how regularly it's discussed at
> rgrm.
We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
[Rude and insulting part snipped]
Hrm, there's nothing left after that. Strange.
Sherm Pendley
> We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
You got what you wanted, Idiot Boy - the thread is marked [crawl].
Stop whining.
Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker
Twisted One <twist...@gmail.invalid> wrote:
>Erik Piper wrote:
>>> This is irrelevant. The person could be playing a roguelike that isn't
>>> "regularly" discussed in rgrm.
>>
>> This is extremely relevant. The likelihood of that person playing the
>> roguelike is inversely proportionate to how regularly it's discussed at
>> rgrm.
>
>We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
I don't see how 100% certainty is a fruitful topic of discussion, since
even the presence of a [crawl] tag in the subject line is no guarantee
that the post is about Crawl.
-Andrew ()
Twisted One
> I don't see how 100% certainty is a fruitful topic of discussion, since
> even the presence of a [crawl] tag in the subject line is no guarantee
> that the post is about Crawl.
It does mean the author intends it to be perceived that way. Otherwise,
we're just guessing what was in the author's head, when he could have
informed us with insignificant effort.
Rubinstein
> Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:
>> I don't see how 100% certainty is a fruitful topic of discussion,
>> since even the presence of a [crawl] tag in the subject line is no
>> guarantee that the post is about Crawl.
>
> It does mean the author intends it to be perceived that way.
> Otherwise, we're just guessing what was in the author's head, when he
> could have informed us with insignificant effort.
Picky and fruitless discussions *about* the tags surely weren't
initially intended with those tags.
Rubinstein
Twisted One
> Picky and fruitless discussions *about* the tags surely weren't
> initially intended with those tags.
Indeed; and you'll notice such discussions only seem to crop up in
threads where the tags were initially missing, or went missing after a
while.
Erik Piper
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> This is extremely relevant. The likelihood of that person playing the
>> roguelike is inversely proportionate to how regularly it's discussed
>> at rgrm.
>
>
> We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
You brought up that 100% figure, yes. But practically speaking, 99% or
even 90% certainty is enough to start addressing the point without a
reasonable fear of doing so unnecesssarily -- and a post referring to
scorpions (they're in Crawl) that poison (as in Crawl), snakes (as in
Crawl) that poison (as in Crawl) a recent release (as in Crawl)
containing imps (as is the case for Crawl), binary poison resistance (as
in Crawl), orc fighters (as in Crawl), and rings of poison resistance
(they're in Crawl) on a newsgroup where at least 80% of the
fantasy-roguelike discussion concerns Crawl... well, if those 9 things
have each just a *1/4* chance per roguelike of knocking that roguelike
out of consideration, we've got over our 90% right there.
> [Rude and insulting part...
>> [Statement that there's no way anyone can tell it's a Crawl post]
> [Strongly worded statement that the fact that people did tell
indicates this is wrong]
>> [A long discourse on 100% certainty and all the roguelikes in the world]
> [Statement that this thing is being silly]
> ...snipped]
>
> Hrm, there's nothing left after that. Strange.
Not intended as rude and insulting, just to the point. When you are
wrong, I point it out. When you say silly things, I can either discuss
them at length rather pointlessly -- since they're silly -- or just
briefly summarize them as that. Seems more productive to do the latter.
The fact that it's *unpleasant* to read that you've been wrong in a
point and, further down, you've written something silly does not
automatically mean stating these things are rude and insulting.
"Rude and insulting" tends to lean more towards phrases like -- pardon
that you have too see this -- the acronym "FOAD." (I don't know about
you, but I really lose respect for people who use it.)
Cheers,
Erik
Twisted One
> Not intended as rude and insulting...
You called me a name! How the hell *did* you intend it, then?! I pointed
out to the OP that since they didn't state what game they were talking
about, and there's more than one discussed here, that people might be
forced to guess. A wrong guess could lead to bad advice. And your
response was to attack me with guns blazing!
[Further insults deleted]
Twisted One's Mother
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
Well, those of us with the ability of abstract thought don't need to be
spoon fed.
Twisted One
You, too, are bound to spread the chaos to rgr.misc? Why? What has
rgr.misc ever done to you?
Twisted One's Mother
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> You called me a name! How the hell *did* you intend it, then?! I pointed
> out to the OP that since they didn't state what game they were talking
> about, and there's more than one discussed here, that people might be
> forced to guess. A wrong guess could lead to bad advice. And your
> response was to attack me with guns blazing!
You're right. Everyone's just out to get you. That's why you're on
welfare. That's why everyone expects you to do things for yourself. That's
why everyone wants to you stop being such an ass. I can't believe their
audacity! I can't imagine why people keeping picking fights with you! It's
obvious it has something to do with you, since before you came to this
group they didn't pick fights with anyone. Maybe they're the fabled Cabal
that's out to get you! Better look out!!!
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=846022
Ooh! How scarry! I hope they never try to get me!
Twisted One's Mother
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> You called me a name!
Why don't you keep crying about it like a little baby?
Sherm Pendley
> Sherm Pendley wrote:
None of this.
>>
>> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>>
>>> We were discussing 100% certainty, not likelihood.
>>
>>
>> Well, those of us with the ability of abstract thought don't need to
>> be spoon fed.
>
>
> You, too, are bound to spread the chaos to rgr.misc? Why? What has
> rgr.misc ever done to you?
I did not write that, as even a cursory examination of the message
headers will prove. A complaint about this deliberate act of slander has
been sent to ab...@rogers.com.
Twisted One's Mother
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> You, too, are bound to spread the chaos to rgr.misc? Why? What has
> rgr.misc ever done to you?
What has ANYONE ever done to you? They try to help, you whine and complain
that they don't spoon feed you. It's obvious that your mother breastfed
you for too long. And now that there's no teet for you to suck, you're all
whiny and obnoxious. We're not to blame for you inability to find a woman.
Perhaps if you we're so fat and practiced some basic hygine, people would
be able to come withing ten feet of you and you wouldn't have to act like
a child on the internet.
Twisted One's Mother
On Fri, 6 May 2005, Sherm Pendley wrote:
> Paul Derbyshire wrote:
>
>> Sherm Pendley wrote:
>
> I did not write that, as even a cursory examination of the message
> headers will prove. A complaint about this deliberate act of slander has
> been sent to ab...@rogers.com.
Sherm! Baby! Don't you remember me? Every night, by the light of the moon,
you transform into me! It makes me sad that you don't remember, and moreso
that you're denying that you are me, and that I am you!
Besides, Twisted One told us that he isn't Paul Derbyshire, so stop
misattributing him! (And by that I mean, 'Note to Self'.)
Twisted One
[more bullshit]
Isn't rgrd big enough for you? You have to bring your bullying and
off-topic flamage here too?
Twisted One
> Why don't you keep crying about it like a little baby?
Why don't you go back to whence you came? You evil, evil flamer.
Twisted One
> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>
>> You, too, are bound to spread the chaos to rgr.misc? Why? What has
>> rgr.misc ever done to you?
>
> What has ANYONE ever done to you? They try to help
No, you keep flaming me, and you seem determined to spread your noise
into other newsgroups beyond rgrd for some reason.
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Sherm Pendley wrote:
>> Why don't you keep crying about it like a little baby?
>
> Why don't you go back to whence you came? You evil, evil flamer.
Wait, are you talking to me, or Sherm?
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> No, you keep flaming me, and you seem determined to spread your noise
> into other newsgroups beyond rgrd for some reason.
You're right. I can't imagine why. Like, it's beyond comprehention.
Do you understand how hilarious it is when you call someone stupid, or a
liar, or a troll, or calling them out for flaming? Are you retarded? Have
you been diagnosed with any learning disorder? Because I feel like
whomever diagnosed you should have told you the dangers of acting like an
idiot in public.
Twisted One
> On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>
>> No, you keep flaming me, and you seem determined to spread your noise
>> into other newsgroups beyond rgrd for some reason.
>
> You're right. I can't imagine why. Like, it's beyond comprehention.
>
> Do you understand how hilarious it is when you call someone stupid, or a
> liar, or a troll, or calling them out for flaming?
Yes I do -- namely, zero hilarity when the person in question is in facy
trolling and flaming, as you are.
Twisted One
Either both, or you're a liar; take your pick. Actually, both -- whether
you are one and the same or not, or schizophrenic, or what.
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Either both, or you're a liar; take your pick. Actually, both -- whether
> you are one and the same or not, or schizophrenic, or what.
Ok: what lies have I told? Do you want me to point out the lies you have
told?
To recap:
-- You are a liar. I say this because: you have lied in this group before.
Do you deny this? I mean, that's why we call you a liar. Because you are
one. I thought this would be obvious to you. A causes B. But I guess
stupidity knows no end. Do I need to explain it further.
-- You call me a liar. To my knowledge, though I have lied in my lifetime,
I have certainly never lied on this board. If you want to prove me wrong,
feel free. I will take your silence in this matter proof of the fact that
I am right.
PS -- Don't speak to your Mother like that!
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Yes I do -- namely, zero hilarity when the person in question is in facy
> trolling and flaming, as you are.
Oh, Paul Derbyshire, you still don't get it: We, as people, aren't you.
This means that we don't have the same thoughts in our heads as you do in
yours. This means what isn't funny to you, can be hilarious to us! See how
this works.
Do you need more help with this other people concept? I'm trying to take
baby steps. Maybe later we can move on to going outside. After a year I
think you may be ready to meet someone in person. Good luck!
Twisted One
> -- You are a liar.
No, I am not.
> -- You call me a liar.
And you are -- you called me a dirty nymshifting coward -- while
nymshifting -- while I wasn't -- I've been using "Twisted One"
throughout this sordid mess. (The fact that I've used other nyms in the
distant past is irrelevant here.)
> I have certainly never lied on this board.
If you mean rgrmisc, that might be technically true, since the lie I
remarked upon above occurred in rgrd. Of course, that doesn't change the
fact that you are a (now self-confessed) liar in general.
> I will take your silence in this matter
What silence? This post isn't silence. Your brain waves, on the other
hand...
Twisted One
[snip more lies, implied lies, rudeness, and flamage]
GFAG.
Erik Piper
> Because I feel like whomever diagnosed you [...]
I hate to be a pedant, but...
Well, actually, I love to be a pedant; that's the trouble with me.
It's "whoever" -- it's the subject of the clause. "whom-foo" is for
direct objects at least; it may be for indirect objects as well.
Instances like this one where it comes after the main verb of the
sentence can trick one into thinking that the "who/mfoo" in question is
working as an object when it really isn't, which I suspect is what
happened here.
[Listeners, you may now all go back to your scheduled flamewar.]
Erik
Erik Piper
continuing our fine conversation all day (I was out all morning and
afternoon with my family at a crafts fair; I hope you had a fine day
with your friends or loved ones as well).
Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> Not intended as rude and insulting...
>
> You called me a name!
Oh, dear. I'm afraid in all the snippage the sentence where I called you
a name has disappeared, so there's not much to say here. If you ever
find it, just quote it, and I'll be quick to apologize.
> How the hell
"Four-letter words" are rather distracting. Since they might lead your
partners in conversation to concentrate on those words rather than your
point -- and from what I've read from you, you certainly have a strong
interest in conveying a lot of points -- I might suggest that you use
them with far more care and less frequency. Just friendly advice.
*did* you intend it, then?!
As soon as I know what it is, I can answer you. I hope you don't mind
the wait.
> I pointed
> out to the OP that since they didn't state what game they were talking
> about, and there's more than one discussed here, that people might be
> forced to guess. A wrong guess could lead to bad advice. And your
> response was to attack me with guns blazing!
I seem to recall your wording to have been a bit harsher than that, and
a pinch of sarcasm here and a dash of irony there, but as you wish. I
also seem to recall a statement (perhaps it was only an insinuation -- I
*think* that's the word) -- that such guessing would be difficult. You
know, I'm the sort who gets a bit flustered when I read people quite
categorically saying things that are clearly false, so I rebuked you
quite strongly (but certainly with no name-calling). The part with the
guns must have been someone else; I write a bit differently when my guns
are blazing. I try to avoid ever firing them, though, really -- never
saw much point in flamewars, so the only way to get me into one is to
get me *really* riled up. But you're not the sort that would ever manage
to get me really riled up.
> [Further insults deleted]
Oh my. Truly a pity -- you seem tremendously hurt by what I wrote, and
yet, with no context available here, I'm not even sure what's gone wrong.
I certainly hope we can get this cleared up and speak about more
pleasant matters soon.
Cheers,
Erik
Rubinstein
> [A poster going by the handle "Twisted One's Mother"] wrote:
>> Because I feel like whomever diagnosed you [...]
>
> I hate to be a pedant, but...
He, that's not an interactive movie here, rather the unavoidable (and
disturbing) spam sequence in the middle of a movie. Though your little
grammar lesson actually drops some light into an otherwise entirely
pointless *cough* discussion.
[snip grammar lesson]
> [Listeners, you may now all go back to your scheduled flamewar.]
Popcorn, anyone?
Rubinstein
Twisted One
[some snippage]
>> [Further insults deleted]
>
> Oh my. Truly a pity -- you seem tremendously hurt by what I wrote, and
> yet, with no context available here, I'm not even sure what's gone wrong.
There's always google groups. :)
--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>Not intended as rude and insulting, just to the point.
Actually, you're doing amazingly well. I'm surprised you've been
helpful to him this far without him breaking out the cuss words and
random accusations. Please note, however, that if you are going to
point out his errors that he is, well, hypersensitive about anyone
noticing when he's wrong.
> When you are wrong, I point it out.
Which is rude and insulting by his standards. He has a long history of
bizarre and extreme reactions to corrections of incorrect statements
he has made. He has repeatedly stated that in doing so, you are
calling him a liar. He is also bound to call you a liar at some point,
probably about the time he resorts to simply swearing at you. He has
kept up this behavior for half a decade, so there is little hope he is
going to grow out of it any time soon. (I apologize for not providing
references, but Google Groups Beta is a pain and even the UK Google is
using it now. If you want to research on your own, his most important
previous pseudonym was "Neo".)
I'm not going to tell you not to offer him good advice or respond to
his errors with corrections, but you should know you can't expect a
gracious response.
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Twisted One
[weird and vaguely insulting stuff]
Haven't you caused enough trouble in rgrd, without causing more of it
here? Or maybe you're just a big attention whore...
Rubinstein
> On Sat, 07 May 2005 03:26:22 +0200, Erik Piper <eri...@skySP.czAM>
> wrote:
>
>> When you are wrong, I point it out.
>
> Which is rude and insulting by his standards. He has a long history of
> bizarre and extreme reactions to corrections of incorrect statements
> he has made.
I know what you're talking about; I actually followed one of these
discussions though I wasn't directly involved. So you have some point
here, but what's actually going on seems something else (and really
nasty). To me it looks like someone (or several persons) are
purposefully abusing some psychological weak points of him, namely his
disputatiously manner and his obligation for always having the last
word. The way it is done almost looks like a collection of predefined
text blocks, assorted to his certain 'profile' and triggered by his
name. The reason why I think so is because the nature of these
'flame-spammings' is never becoming too concrete and could very well be
fired by some kind of spam robot.
*Nobody* deserves such a treatment if that's what actually going on.
But unfortunately he's so paranoid meanwhile, that my last attempt to
give him some friendly advice was immediately rejected as just another
insult. :-/
Rubinstein
sheepy
;)
--
Ash Ellis
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
--Douglas Adams
Kornel Kisielewicz
> R. Dan Henry wrote:
> [weird and vaguely insulting stuff]
>
> Haven't you caused enough trouble in rgrd, without causing more of it
> here? Or maybe you're just a big attention whore...
Leave him alone Twisted One. Note that he didn't add his insulting .sig
this time. Treat it as a invitation to mutual invisibility.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"If hackers will ever use virtual reality, it would show a bunch
of text terminals floating around them..." -- The Sheep
R. Dan Henry
<picom...@t-online.de> wrote:
>R Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 May 2005 03:26:22 +0200, Erik Piper <eri...@skySP.czAM>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When you are wrong, I point it out.
>>
>> Which is rude and insulting by his standards. He has a long history of
>> bizarre and extreme reactions to corrections of incorrect statements
>> he has made.
>
>I know what you're talking about; I actually followed one of these
>discussions though I wasn't directly involved. So you have some point
>here, but what's actually going on seems something else (and really
>nasty). To me it looks like someone (or several persons) are
>purposefully abusing some psychological weak points of him, namely his
>disputatiously manner and his obligation for always having the last
>word.
*That* is very recent. He has been attacking people for correcting his
mistakes for *years*.
>But unfortunately he's so paranoid meanwhile, that my last attempt to
>give him some friendly advice was immediately rejected as just another
>insult. :-/
And that why some of us don't bother to try being at all nice to him.
It's a waste of time. He's going to take insult at anything but
mindless agreement with his every error, so why pretend he's anything
but a total wanker?
That wasn't my point, however. I simply don't want Erik (or others) to
proceed without knowing what to expect.
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Isn't rgrd big enough for you? You have to bring your bullying and
> off-topic flamage here too?
Oh! Sorry! Didn't realize that this was your newsgroup. I'll stop posting
immediately!
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> GFAG.
GFAG?
Twisted One
[Attacks some of my nastier detractors, but also calls me assorted
names, e.g. "paranoid"]
Great. Multiple factions that fight with each other, but all hate me. :P
Twisted One
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> [weird and vaguely insulting stuff]
>>
>> Haven't you caused enough trouble in rgrd, without causing more of it
>> here? Or maybe you're just a big attention whore...
>
> Leave him alone Twisted One. Note that he didn't add his insulting .sig
> this time. Treat it as a invitation to mutual invisibility.
Not that it's really a .sig, since it's not appended to his every
message. Mutual invisibility would be nice if I could be sure he wasn't
spewing crap about me behind my back. :P
Twisted One
[insulting claim that I require "correction" snipped]
> And that why some of us don't bother to try being at all nice to him.
Then don't be anything at all to me. Don't speak a word to or about me.
It's not that difficult -- nearly 100% of the world's population behaves
as I wish you would (a group comprised, in large part, of all the people
that have never heard of me, of course).
> That wasn't my point, however. I simply don't want Erik (or others) to
> proceed without knowing what to expect.
No, you don't want rgrm to proceed without being trolled to death the
way you and your cronies have already mangled rgrd beyond all recognition.
Twisted One
>
Thanks. You do that.
Twisted One
>
Unlike you, I will actually be kind and expand this for you: Go fuck a goat!
Kornel Kisielewicz
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>
>> Twisted One wrote:
>>
>>> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>>> [weird and vaguely insulting stuff]
>>>
>>> Haven't you caused enough trouble in rgrd, without causing more of it
>>> here? Or maybe you're just a big attention whore...
>>
>>
>> Leave him alone Twisted One. Note that he didn't add his insulting
>> .sig this time. Treat it as a invitation to mutual invisibility.
>
>
> Not that it's really a .sig, since it's not appended to his every
> message. Mutual invisibility would be nice if I could be sure he wasn't
> spewing crap about me behind my back. :P
Let go of R.D.Henry (ignore him for now unless he attacks you again) --
you've got a far meaner person trolling you, now :-/ (unless, Twisted
One's Mother is RDH, but I doubt that -- I can't possibly imagine, he
would go so low in this flamewar...)
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Come on, Kornel. 11 years and no binary? And it's not
vapourware?" -- Mike Blackney
Twisted One
> Let go of R.D.Henry (ignore him for now unless he attacks you again) --
> you've got a far meaner person trolling you, now :-/ (unless, Twisted
> One's Mother is RDH, but I doubt that -- I can't possibly imagine, he
> would go so low in this flamewar...)
I can, although sheepy and sherm are good candidates too. As for
pedantic boy, he will almost surely attack me again within the bloody
hour. He seems to take a potshot at me almost every time he posts to
rgrd, and fairly frequently in rgrm.
R. Dan Henry
<kisie...@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>Let go of R.D.Henry (ignore him for now unless he attacks you again) --
>you've got a far meaner person trolling you, now :-/ (unless, Twisted
>One's Mother is RDH, but I doubt that -- I can't possibly imagine, he
>would go so low in this flamewar...)
AFAIK, it is his mother. "She" is caught by the same filtering that
gets his messages, so I haven't even seen "her" posts.
Neil Stevens
> Erik Piper wrote:
>> Not intended as rude and insulting...
*plonk*
> You called me a name!
*plonk* (well, an extension of the existing r.g.r.a rule)
--
Neil Stevens - ne...@hakubi.us
'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
Erik Piper
> Erik Piper wrote:
> [some snippage]
I preserved every word you wrote, to tell the truth. I wouldn't have it
any other way. But since you've snipped out most of the words of both of
us, I'll respect that... though it presents the problem of removing some
very useful context.
>>> [Further insults deleted]
I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really can't know what you
found insulting without context.
Ah! Silly me. I can look it up in my local r.g.r.m. archives... fine;
that problem's solved. It sure is a lot of extra work, though. Can I
request that you help out here? Also, since none of it was intended as
insulting, and I can't get into your head to know what you found
insulting, I'm not sure it would help to merely re-read it anyway.
>> Oh my. Truly a pity -- you seem tremendously hurt by what I wrote, and
>> yet, with no context available here, I'm not even sure what's gone wrong.
>
> There's always google groups. :)
In the past, you advised r.g.r.m. readers to never, ever, ever, ever use
web-based mail or news. I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart --
I'd certainly agree that they can be useful.
Whew. It's nice to converse on a more lighthearted topic for a change.
Best regards,
Erik
Twisted One
>>> Oh my. Truly a pity -- you seem tremendously hurt by what I wrote,
>>> and yet, with no context available here, I'm not even sure what's
>>> gone wrong.
>>
>> There's always google groups. :)
>
> In the past, you advised r.g.r.m. readers to never, ever, ever, ever use
> web-based mail or news. I'm glad to see you've had a change of heart --
> I'd certainly agree that they can be useful.
Useful as an archive, rather than for posting, sending mail, or keeping
current, of course.
Twisted One
> On Fri, 06 May 2005 22:33:24 -0400, Twisted One wrote:
>
>>Erik Piper wrote:
>>
>>>Not intended as rude and insulting...
>
> *plonk*
>
>>You called me a name!
>
> *plonk* (well, an extension of the existing r.g.r.a rule)
What rule?
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Unlike you, I will actually be kind and expand this for you: Go fuck a
> goat!
Paul Derbyshire, I can't believe you live a life where you need to know an
acronym for that!
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Then don't be anything at all to me. Don't speak a word to or about me.
> It's not that difficult -- nearly 100% of the world's population behaves
> as I wish you would (a group comprised, in large part, of all the people
> that have never heard of me, of course).
House, you enter, Oh Paul Derbyshire
And then take a shit right by the fire
People complain
You're still the same
But your situation is not dire!
Now, why do these people speak about you?
You've made it quite clear that you have no clue!
You are so great
Yet you they hate!
Yes more and more crap you do spew
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Thanks. You do that.
Fine! I will!
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Great. Multiple factions that fight with each other, but all hate me. :P
Another cookie?
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Haven't you caused enough trouble in rgrd, without causing more of it
> here? Or maybe you're just a big attention whore...
Someone tell the pot to shut up!
Twisted One's Mother
On Sat, 7 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>> I will take your silence in this matter
>
> What silence? This post isn't silence. Your brain waves, on the other
> hand...
You silence in this matter, Paul! Read the words! You didn't say anything
logical about 'this matter'. Hence, your silence! Get it?
Twisted One's Mother
Derbyshire wants
Like the might lioness
She can't be fulfilled
Now posts are attacks
Neo must defend himself!
At all costs, or else
Twisted One's Mother
On Sun, 8 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> What rule?
Don't be a dick?
Twisted One's Mother
On Sun, 8 May 2005, Erik Piper wrote:
> Ah! Silly me. I can look it up in my local r.g.r.m. archives... fine;
> that problem's solved. It sure is a lot of extra work, though. Can I
> request that you help out here? Also, since none of it was intended as
> insulting, and I can't get into your head to know what you found
> insulting, I'm not sure it would help to merely re-read it anyway.
You don't see Paul Derbyshire's delusions, too? What a comcept!
Erik Piper
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>>>> Oh my. Truly a pity -- you seem tremendously hurt by what I wrote,
>>>> and yet, with no context available here, I'm not even sure what's
>>>> gone wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>> There's always google groups. :)
>>
>>
>> In the past, you advised r.g.r.m. readers to never, ever, ever, ever
>> use web-based mail or news. I'm glad to see you've had a change of
>> heart -- I'd certainly agree that they can be useful.
>
>
> Useful as an archive, rather than for posting, sending mail, or keeping
> current, of course.
GG has actually quite useful for posting if you don't know of another
way to post, though of course knowing of another way to post is better.
If GG weren't always one flaw short of safely usable, it would be a
full-fledged posting tool in my book. But the old version was inflexible
regarding line lengths; that might still be a problem in the new version
and I just haven't noticed it because it's not as much in conflict with
Crawl dumps as it was with ADOM dumps. And of course the new version
doesn't respect brackets, which makes it unusable for r.g.r.m. (though I
used it out of desperation after individual.net stopped providing free
news access).
As for keeping current -- that's one flaw in the old GG that's been
eliminated in the new one. Unless posts are really flying fast and
furious, there's very little that others are already seeing that GG
users are not, as I noticed whenever I'm posting via a newsreader, but
reading via GG (because I want to do archive work, or I don't want
telltale text on my taskbar :-D).
Cheers,
Erik
Rubinstein
> [about Google Groups]
> And of course the new version doesn't respect brackets, which makes it
> unusable for r.g.r.m. (though I used it out of desperation after
> individual.net stopped providing free news access).
I've just informed GG-service about the bracket-in-topic-problem. But
since current GG is beta, I'm not too optimistic they take care of such
an exotic (as it must appear from their point of view) problem. They
surely have some other sorrows...
For the records: GG does very well allow brackets in *new* posts (though
they are not shown in a browser view, but still present for a real
newsreader). Just the answers are the problem with deleting brackets
from the topic.
Rubinstein
Twisted One
Uh -- allrighty then. But aren't you bound by law to keep that sort of
thing confidential? Assuming, that is, that you're his therapist or
something and therefore qualified to make that diagnosis.
Twisted One
> GG has actually quite useful for posting if you don't know of another
> way to post, though of course knowing of another way to post is better.
No, it isn't. Besides all the usual web-based caveats (might stop being
free any day now, interface sucks, browser glitch and you lose all your
work, spurious error with form submittal and you lose all your work,
etc. etc. we've been over all this blah blah), there's the nasty habit
GG has of altering subject lines.
> I used it out of desperation after individual.net stopped providing free
> news access).
And for all you know, GG will jump on that bandwagon next week. When a
free web service starts charging or otherwise does something unpleasant
and everyone abandons it in droves, it often pushes the next-best over
that threshold of "we now have enough users that we can make a tidy sum
and retire if we put our evil plan into motion, muahahahahaha!". Usa.net
stops providing free POP access and everyone goes to hotmail -- which
promptly sells itself to Microsoft, which then in standard M$ fashion
turns it immediately into a piece of shit, like they do everything they
touch. That kind of thing.
R. Dan Henry
>On Fri, 06 May 2005 22:33:24 -0400, Twisted One wrote:
>
>> Erik Piper wrote:
>>> Not intended as rude and insulting...
>
>*plonk*
Why are you plonking Erik? He has been reasonable, helpful, and
intensely polite. It's not his fault the other party responds just as
vehemently to such treatment as he does to insults and abuse.
Twisted One
Hell, no -- it's probably poisoned, you flaming thief.
Twisted One
Your insults are just as off-topic in verse as they are in prose. Now
bugger off. We've got roguelike misc discussions to do and you're
wasting our time.
Twisted One
Shut the hell up.
Twisted One
It won't win any prizes, except maybe "lamer of the week". You on the
other hand might win "net.kook of the year" if you keep it up.
Twisted One
Please seek help. If not for my sake, or even your own, then for the
sake of the uninvolved bystanders in rgrm.
Twisted One
OK, together now: "SHUT UP, YOU STUPID NET.STALKING FLAMER!"
Twisted One
Why don't you stop being such a pussy?
Erik Piper
> As for pedantic boy [referring to RDH]
No offense to RDH, but that's *my* title. HE CAN'T HAVE IT!
[/me puts fists in silly-looking faux boxing position]
Erik
Erik Piper
>>> Twisted One wrote:
>> Erik Piper wrote:
>>>> In the past, you advised r.g.r.m. readers to never, ever, ever,
ever use web-based mail or news. I'm glad to see you've had a change of
heart -- I'd certainly agree that they can be useful.
>>> Useful as an archive, rather than for posting, sending mail, or
keeping current, of course.
>> GG has actually quite useful for posting if you don't know of another
>> way to post, though of course knowing of another way to post is better.
>
>
> No, it isn't. Besides all the usual web-based caveats (might stop being
> free any day now, interface sucks, browser glitch and you lose all your
> work, spurious error with form submittal and you lose all your work,
> etc. etc. we've been over all this blah blah), there's the nasty habit
> GG has of altering subject lines.
Well, let's look at these one by one.
Might stop being free any day now
---------------------------------
In that case, one is no worse off than if they were using a paid service
in the first place. In fact, one is better off, as until it went paid,
they weren't *paying* anything.
Interface sucks
---------------
Interface designs depend just as much on the skill and dedication of the
interface design team as the medium used for them.
browser glitch and you lose all your work
-----------------------------------------
Newsreader glitch and you lose all your work, too. If you're really
worried about it, you can just (in both instances) save your work --
IIRC there are firefox extensions that help here.
etc. etc.
---------
I can't argue with that. ;-)
there's the nasty habit GG has of altering subject lines
--------------------------------------------------------
A very nasty one. And that's why at *this* time *this* web-based news
service is unsuitable for *posting* to *groups where subject-line
brackets are important.* I wouldn't say it means web-based news services
as such are not useful for posting in general or keeping current.
(Web-based e-mail clients are a separate discussion; I'd rather not open
up new discussions in the middle of old ones without a strong reason --
better quality of discussion than quantity of topics.)
>> I used it out of desperation after individual.net stopped providing free
>> news access).
>
> And for all you know, GG will jump on that bandwagon next week.
Just out of curiosity, I checked dictionary.com, which defined bandwagon as:
1. [literal meaning]
2. Informal. A cause or party that attracts increasing numbers of
adherents: young voters climbing aboard the party's bandwagon.
3. Informal. A current trend: “Even brand-name [drug] companies... have
jumped on the generics bandwagon” (Beth Howard).
I don't know of any cause or party devoted to advancing the demise of
free web services, nor would I say that the demise of one free service,
however well-known it (perhaps) is among our peers here, makes a trend.
Perhaps a less charged word would have been more appropriate?
> When a free web service starts charging or otherwise does something
> unpleasant and everyone abandons it in droves, it often pushes the next-best
> over that threshold of "we now have enough users that we can make a tidy sum
> and retire if we put our evil plan into motion, muahahahahaha!".
Are you saying that the team behind individual.net plans to make a tidy
sum? Judging from the fees they charge and their statement preceding the
change (I can post it on request), it looks more likely that they're
planning to stop running a deficit.
> Usa.net stops providing free POP access and the majority of its users switch to
hotmail
> -- which soon sells itself to Microsoft, which then as Microsoft usually does
> very soon turns it into a poor service, like they do to many projects
> they participate in.
I've seen a lot of bad projects with Microsoft involvement. I've seen
several good ones too. Plenty inbetween as well. Having not used
hotmail, I can't comment on it one way or the other, but since you seem
to be speaking from experience as a past usa.net and hotmail.com user,
and since you state it so reasonably, I'll be happy to take your word
for it. It's especially pleasant to read your wording in light of the
fact that so much of what's written around Microsoft is flamebait in one
direction or the other.
Cheers,
Erik
Rubinstein
> My least favorite stalker wrote:
> [snip misattribution and snide implication]
>
> Shut the hell up.
ROTFLOL! (crisp, crisp -> popcorn)
And you really think *that* will help stopping the bugger? Oh boy...
Neil Stevens
> Why are you plonking Erik? He has been reasonable, helpful, and
> intensely polite. It's not his fault the other party responds just as
> vehemently to such treatment as he does to insults and abuse.
I don't want to read the writing of the man of a thousand names, so
people who play along with him and reply to him to much to him get it, too.
--
Neil Stevens - ne...@hakubi.us
'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Please seek help. If not for my sake, or even your own, then for the
> sake of the uninvolved bystanders in rgrm.
Why? What are you doing to them?
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> My least favorite stalker wrote:
> [snip misattribution and snide implication]
>
> Shut the hell up.
Butt the well cup.
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>> Another cookie?
> Hell, no -- it's probably poisoned, you flaming thief.
Theif? I didn't steal these cookies! I baked them!
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> OK, together now: "SHUT UP, YOU STUPID NET.STALKING FLAMER!"
WHAT WAS THAT? I COULDN'T HEAR YOU. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SPEAK UP.
AND MAYBE REPEAT YOURSELF FIVE OR SIX TIMES.
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
> Your insults are just as off-topic in verse as they are in prose. Now
> bugger off. We've got roguelike misc discussions to do and you're
> wasting our time.
Right, I'm wasting the time of people who would wrather read you flaming
them?
Twisted One's Mother
On Mon, 9 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>> Don't be a dick?
>
> Why don't you stop being such a pussy?
Takes one to know one.
Raymond Martineau
>
>there's the nasty habit GG has of altering subject lines
>--------------------------------------------------------
>
>A very nasty one. And that's why at *this* time *this* web-based news
>service is unsuitable for *posting* to *groups where subject-line
>brackets are important.* I wouldn't say it means web-based news services
>as such are not useful for posting in general or keeping current.
>(Web-based e-mail clients are a separate discussion; I'd rather not open
>up new discussions in the middle of old ones without a strong reason --
>better quality of discussion than quantity of topics.)
FYI, I found that placing the [] at the end of the subject line works
properly.
Given that the standard is only to insert "Re:" at the beginning of the
post if it hasn't been done already and to not otherwise change the
subject, it's obvious that Google Groups isn't following extremely standard
conventions.
Twisted One
> Might stop being free any day now
> ---------------------------------
>
> In that case, one is no worse off than if they were using a paid service
> in the first place. In fact, one is better off, as until it went paid,
> they weren't *paying* anything.
But they are worse off than if they'd used their ISP's
no-additional-charge news service instead. Now they have the nuisance of
having to pony up or switch. (And basically you're paying for your ISP's
news service anyway, so it's a waste not to use it.)
> Interface sucks
> ---------------
>
> Interface designs depend just as much on the skill and dedication of the
> interface design team as the medium used for them.
The choice of materials is integral to usability. Imagine if they'd made
the Brooklyn Bridge out of origami. It might have actually been pretty
that way -- until the first attempt to actually use it to cross over
to/from Manhattan. :)
> Newsreader glitch and you lose all your work, too. If you're really
> worried about it, you can just (in both instances) save your work
You can save your work in any decent newsreader, but anything you typed
into a text input field on a Web page goes *poof* the moment the browser
dies/power goes out/whatever. You can compose in Notepad, which has
save, and paste it in, but that involves task switching and is generally
messy, unintuitive, and just plain shouldn't be necessary.
Also, a newsreader is designed with reading and composing news in mind.
A Web browser is not. A newsreader generally won't have dangerous and
unstable scripting capabilities built in (OE notwithstanding), but a Web
browser will. A Web browser trying to be a newsreader is much more
complex and therefore almost certainly much more buggy and much less
stable than a dedicated newsreader.
And did I mention that a real newsreader is faster? Both because a web
browser emulating a newsreader is necessarily slower than the real McCoy
running on the same hardware, and because instead of quickie nntp
transactions over a kept-alive connection you have a bunch of
independent http connections being created briefly all the time, and
transferring *the whole UI* including, no doubt, gobs of ads and other
extraneous graphics, every time you view a different article or start or
finish composing one. Imagine how slow xnews or thunderbird would seem
if every time you clicked Compose, clicked Send, or clicked on a group
or an article, a whole copy of xnews or thunderbird had to be
downloaded. (Or even just all the strings and graphics that appear in
the UI.)
Add to that the tiny cramped unresizable box you have to edit in on any
web based mail or news.
Add to that the irrobust web form submittal. If you hit Send and nothing
happens (likely with a slow/wonky Web server at the other end) what do
you do? Did it succeed or fail? If you hit the button again after
waiting a minute with no reply, will you end up making two identical
posts? But if you browse on, you might turn out to not have made any
post at all and moreover will have lost your work, unless it was indeed
saved externally by using Notepad for composition.
And then there's the evil-and-rude problem. Google groups messes with
subject lines. Hotmail adds a little spam at the end of every outgoing
message advertising Hotmail. And so on.
> A very nasty one. And that's why at *this* time *this* web-based news
> service is unsuitable for *posting* to *groups where subject-line
> brackets are important.* I wouldn't say it means web-based news services
> as such are not useful for posting in general or keeping current.
By itself, no, but it fits a pattern -- web based stuff in general is
prone to wackiness and spurious not-workingness or other spurious
behavior stemming from the *user not being in control*. If I have a copy
of Thunderbird that works great, doesn't mung my subject lines, etc.,
and I keep using it forever, it keeps working forever. If a new version
of Thunderbird is released that has serious problems but I don't update
my copy, then mine continues to work great. If I use a web based service
that works great and they "update" it in a way that is broken and
brain-damaged, on the other hand, I'm fucked. I can't just "keep using
the old version" the way I can with software I physically possess. And
that is just *one* reason why plain NNTP service accessed via a user's
choice of news software will always be inherently superior to a web
based service. User choice and customizability is another -- the
masochists that love fumbling-in-the-dark hotkey-driven text interfaces
and use programs like slrn with vi as a plug-in editor must truly loathe
web based news! I may not understand their choice, or think it sensible,
but I also don't see any harm to others in their choice, and therefore
do see harm in restricting them from making that choice. Which any
Web-based service will necessarily do to all its users.
> I don't know of any cause or party devoted to advancing the demise of
> free web services, nor would I say that the demise of one free service,
> however well-known it (perhaps) is among our peers here, makes a trend.
> Perhaps a less charged word would have been more appropriate?
The trend is when you examine the history of free mail and news services
on the 'net and see some recurring patterns in it. Pattern recognition
is supposed to be one of human congition's major forte's.
> Are you saying that the team behind individual.net plans to make a tidy
> sum? Judging from the fees they charge and their statement preceding the
> change (I can post it on request), it looks more likely that they're
> planning to stop running a deficit.
I'm not saying anything of the sort -- on the other hand, no matter what
they are doing their press releases will attempt to put a positive spin
on it. Thus we can't be sure.
> I've seen a lot of bad projects with Microsoft involvement. I've seen
> several good ones too.
Though they won't be for long, once Microsoft becomes involved.
Twisted One
Nothing. You, on the other hand...
Twisted One
No, but you're annoying the fuck out of this newsgroup generally,
especially as just about every one of your off-topic posts actually
counts for two, since it forces an equally off-topic reply.
Twisted One
--