Dwarf Fortress
Herold
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html
It was just released. My first impressions were: WOW! This is
incredible. It looks so comlex! The graphics is maybe a little
confusing but there is so many things to explore, it's not like next
and next Angband alpha variant.
It seems that THIS IS IT.
(Be patient. The creation of new world is reaaaaaaly lenghty.)
chris8850
I'd also recommend folks to try at Dwarf Fortress. I've been waiting for
the release for many months, as the level of detail that it has (with
more hopefully to come) is quite astonishing. It's a very deep game and
will take even an experienced Roguelike / ASCII player some while to
master :)
-Chris (aka Prospero on the DF forum)
stu
Herold wrote:
> Did anyone tried this rogulike/ascii strategy already?
>
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html
>
> It was just released. My first impressions were: WOW! This is
> incredible. It looks so comlex! The graphics is maybe a little
> confusing but there is so many things to explore, it's not like next
> and next Angband alpha variant.
it really does look quite impressive but heck, is this some buttugly
dos ap?? simley face character 1 and load of extended ascii...
looks interesting but I dont think I'll play it. the screenshot
fighting
the cyclops turned me off (as did a lot of the others).
-stu
Herold
> it really does look quite impressive but heck, is this some buttugly
> dos ap?? simley face character 1 and load of extended ascii...
>
> looks interesting but I dont think I'll play it. the screenshot
> fighting
> the cyclops turned me off (as did a lot of the others).
Yes I know. For me personaly the best graphic has Warlock mountain
(OpenGL). But after all - graphic is not why I play RLs...
-Herold
Crypt
wow, the features list is very promising.
Despite the ugly ascii graphs, i will seriously try it :)
Timofei Shatrov
confuse everyone with this message:
>Did anyone tried this rogulike/ascii strategy already?
I'm a long time fan of Bay 12 Games, so I waited for this game with a
great anticipiation. So, it is released and it truly delivers. The
effort put into this game should be an inspiration for every roguelike
developer.
--
|Don't believe this - you're not worthless ,gr---------.ru
|It's us against millions and we can't take them all... | ue il |
|But we can take them on! | @ma |
| (A Wilhelm Scream - The Rip) |______________|
stu
If we didnt like ascii we wouldnt be posting in a RL forum right?
some of those screenshots are just bad.
did you even read the text in
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/cyclops_wrestle.html
for combat that is WAY too busy (apart from poor sentencing)
"You are unable to break the grip of The Cyclops left upper arm
on Your left upper arm.
The cyclops breaks Your left shoulder
You loose hold of the copper shield.
The cyclops releases the joint lock of The cyclops left upper arm
on Your left upper arm.
The cyclops punches You in the right hand with Her right hand.
It is broken.
You loose hold of the copper great axe."
I wouldnt want to see transcript of two monsters fighting the hero.
the other screenshots are just as bad and jumbled in overuse of
colour and are all far too busy.
it makes me think of really bad BBS door games and such.
-stu
Gamer_2k4
Why has no one ever heard of this? It looks incredible! Weather
patterns? Seasons? Huge maps? Forget JADE (sorry if I offended you
Master Biskup *grovel*); this game looks like it has everything! I'm
really pumped about it, and I haven't even played it yet! I really look
forward to the future versions.
Gamer_2k4
Gamer_2k4
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/cyclops_wrestle.html
Ha ha, the player is getting owned.
I actually like how it looks. It's a little complicated, but I think
that's a good thing. Maybe the game could have attack representation
(think Gearhead with red * is a hit, etc.) so the player doesn't always
have to read the messages.
Gamer_2k4
Herold
> Herold wrote:
> > stu wrote:
> If we didnt like ascii we wouldnt be posting in a RL forum right?
> some of those screenshots are just bad.
Yes, when I read your posting I thought I posted my thread to another
group :-) But things can change through time and author of this game
can make some better graphic design. And I think that after years of
developing so complex game he is capable of it.
> did you even read the text in
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/cyclops_wrestle.html
>
> for combat that is WAY too busy (apart from poor sentencing)
>
> "You are unable to break the grip of The Cyclops left upper arm
> on Your left upper arm.
>
> The cyclops breaks Your left shoulder
> You loose hold of the copper shield.
>
> The cyclops releases the joint lock of The cyclops left upper arm
> on Your left upper arm.
>
> The cyclops punches You in the right hand with Her right hand.
> It is broken.
> You loose hold of the copper great axe."
>
> I wouldnt want to see transcript of two monsters fighting the hero.
>
> the other screenshots are just as bad and jumbled in overuse of
> colour and are all far too busy.
>
> it makes me think of really bad BBS door games and such.
>
> -stu
Same as upper answer. This is first release! Give the author a
chance....
-Herold
Slash
Herold wrote:
> Did anyone tried this rogulike/ascii strategy already?
>
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html
>
> It was just released. My first impressions were: WOW! This is
> incredible. It looks so comlex! The graphics is maybe a little
> confusing but there is so many things to explore, it's not like next
> and next Angband alpha variant.
>
> It seems that THIS IS IT.
This would be great if character symbols werent so overused and combat
was simplified to the player while perhaps retaining complexity on the
background
The world generator surely rules, I hadnt seen something similar before
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/world_map1.PNG
I may review this on my next review batch
>
> (Be patient. The creation of new world is reaaaaaaly lenghty.)
--
Slash
[http://www.santiagoz.com]
Gamer_2k4
> was simplified to the player while perhaps retaining complexity on the
> background
I've played the game a little and really like it. It's very easy to
die, but I feel good knowing that that character will always be
remembered throughout my games. Also, the combat engine is complex,
but I like it. I don't think it's over the top or anything like that.
BTW, does anyone know how to buy items?
> The world generator surely rules, I hadnt seen something similar before
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/world_map1.PNG
Yes, it takes about 20 - 30 minutes to load, but it's worth it. I
actually enjoyed going through the Age of Legends and seeing all of the
places.
Gamer_2k4
Gamer_2k4
> was simplified to the player while perhaps retaining complexity on the
> background
I've played the game a little and really like it. It's very easy to
die, but I feel good knowing that that character will always be
remembered throughout my games. Also, the combat engine is complex,
but I like it. I don't think it's over the top or anything like that.
BTW, does anyone know how to buy items?
> The world generator surely rules, I hadnt seen something similar before
> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/world_map1.PNG
Yes, it takes about 20 - 30 minutes to load, but it's worth it. I
actually enjoyed going through the Age of Legends and seeing all of the
places.
Gamer_2k4
P.S.
There were butterflies. BUTTERFLIES! How cool is that? What an
incredible level of detail!
Corremn
Herold wrote:
> Yes I know. For me personaly the best graphic has Warlock mountain
> (OpenGL).
Really? Hmm i guess you wont like the look of my next release then...
Herold
You never know... :-)
-Herold
Herold
Could you send some screenshots?
gf
ASCII-art sound-enabled intro video?
The main game looks very good (OK, a bit overloaded with different ASCII
characters).
--
Giorgos
tarn....@gmail.com
> The main game looks very good (OK, a bit overloaded with different ASCII
> characters).
You can change the `',.,`'' ground tiles to all periods in
data/init/init.txt by setting [VARIED_GROUND_TILES:NO] (it currently
has a YES there). If you meant some other kind of overloading, or
additional overloading, there's not much to be done right now.
gf
Looks better!
Nice world, makes you want to interact with it.
--
Giorgos
kalikiana
That game is painfull. When I started it I selected fullscreen. But
when I realized that the world generation was taking longer than
expected I cursed the fullscreen mode because there was no way out any
more. Anyway, besides the nice music, after approximately 30 minutes on
my 3GHz P4, the oh-so-recommended 'help' button did help me as much as
the readme.txt included - nothing, because there did come no help at
all, no matter when I pressed it. And so out of frustration just
because I had no idea what the heck this was all about I quit the game
after one minute of actual gameplay - well, not sure if what I did was
real play afterall, since I did not even know what I did there.
Karnot
> Looks better!
>
> Nice world, makes you want to interact with it.
>
> --
> Giorgos
Yes, indeed this way is better. Hovewer, character sets must be totally
rethinked, definitely. Its way to hard on the eyes. But what lies
underneath is pure gold...i'll go mine some more of it now.
Corremn
I will post some shortly and ask people which way they like better.
(freetype fonts or bitmap fonts). Also I will be releasing a beta
version in a few days.
kalikiana
Please stick with freetype, I love the look of that. Hopefully I will
be able to play the beta when it comes out. ;)
Herold
> I will post some shortly and ask people which way they like better.
> (freetype fonts or bitmap fonts). Also I will be releasing a beta
> version in a few days.
Really? I'm looking forward to it, 'cause your game looks promising.
Gamer_2k4
> the heck this was all about I quit the game after one minute
> of actual gameplay - well, not sure if what I did was real
> play afterall, since I did not even know what I did there.
That's unfortunate, because the game (at least adventure mode) is
incredible. I can honestly say it's the best roguelike I've ever
played. I even had fun watching the Age of Legends part of the world
generation. When a world is created, it's about 260 x 280 sections,
and the entire world stays the same for each game. If you get killed
by a monster, the next time you fight that monster (he'll be in the
same location), you can find the corpse of your other player.
The thing that's amazing about the game is how much detail and thought
went into it. There are clouds, weather patterns, seasons, night and
day (your FOV and the colors of your surroundings change accordingly),
and a lot more. I checked the weather once when I was playing at work,
and it said "The sky is clear. The sun is setting in the west." Ok,
sounds good so far. I play a few games and I'm hooked. So when I go
home, I generated a world for my home computer. Naturally, I check the
weather again. "The sky is cloudy. The sun is setting in the east."
The EAST??? This new world is spinning the wrong way! Who thinks of
this stuff? Amazing!
There's so much detail put into the game. Forget the days of 'T' being
a generic tree. I've seen oaks, maples, pines, acacias, and other
trees. In elven cities the trees are even named! The same detail
applies to caves, dungeons, and dwarf cities. There's no "rock wall".
Instead, you see walls of shale, limestone, and many other rocks.
Armor comes in many materials, including copper and other metals,
various types of wood, and various types of leather. That's right:
I've seen alligator leather shirts, as well as leather from other
animals. Often in the game you will see lizards scurrying about, or
butterflies and birds flying around. Swarms of flies buzz around near
swamps. There's so much detail, and it's a lot of fun to play.
So I create my character, who gathers a few companions and goes to talk
to the mayor. Talking is pretty well done, you can trade, ask about
the surroundings, where the capital is, if they want to join you, and
if they have any quests for you. When you ask about the surroundings,
they will tell you of a place, how far it is, its inhabitants, and its
HISTORY!
Anyway, the mayor tells me I need to kill a particular giant. My five
companions and I set off towards the giant's location. On the way, we
are waylaid by a skeletal warthog. I move to the warthog and start
attacking. It charges me, my character steps aside, and the warthog
HITS THE TREE BEHIND ME AND FALLS DOWN!!! I stab him a few times with
my spear, which suddenly gets stuck in his leg.
Just as a side note, the game is very graphic (even though it's in
ASCII) when it comes to combat. Spines break, kidneys get pierced, and
blood is everywhere. I've actually shuddered a few times as I thought
about how bad the actions described must hurt. Also, combat does not
use the generic D&D hitpoint system like every other roguelike. Each
monster has several body parts that can be damaged, as well as internal
organs. There's pain, and monsters can pass out from it. When a
monster dies, it's because it bled to death.
Anyway, now my spear is in the warthog's leg. Instead of pulling it
out, my character starts twisting it. The warthog passes out, and I
keep twisting until it bleeds to death. We move on, and eventually
reach the giant's cave. As my companions take his bodyguards, I move
in to fight him. With my first attack, he tackles me and we both fall.
We get up and start hacking at each other. Suddenly, the giant grabs
my arm. I can't move away because I'm being held. I attack him, break
his arm, and he released his hold. The floor and walls turn red as I
kill him. Unfortunately, now his guards are coming after me, so I take
my remaining companion and get out of there.
We meet a bear coming back. Combat occurs like before, only now the
bear latches onto my leg. Finally it tears off a chunk, spits it out,
and keeps attacking me. I kill it, and as I'm leaving I notice a human
chunk on the ground. Ugh.
We return to town, and tell the mayor we completed the quest. I decide
to check out my companion's health to see if we're ready to go again.
Good, everything looks in place. Okay...okay...Wait a second. His
left eye is there, but where is his right one? I scan the body parts
list again but don't see it. I check his inventory (which is on the
same screen). Copper hammer (in hand), copper shield (in
hand)...copper short sword (stuck in head). WHAT!?!?! As I reread it,
I realized what happened to his right eye. Ouch. We must have shocked
people as we walked into town.
Anyway, what more is there to say? The game is incredible. You now
how everyone looked forward to JADE? Forget JADE. Forget ADOM.
Forget ToME. Forget Crawl. Forget Nethack. This game is better than
all of them. It's an amazing feat for one person to code all of this.
Did I mention there's another game? You can also play a real time
strategy game, where you lead a team of dwarves in the building of a
city. The city is added to the map, and you can visit it later. I've
almost given up roguelike development because I know there's almost no
way for me to top this game. It is truly remarkable. If you only
download one game, make it this one.
Karnot
> incredible. I can honestly say it's the best roguelike I've ever
> played.
anything in adventure mode right now. Well, yes, detail level is
amazing, but without some purpose (and the MEANS to complete that said
purpose) it will have to wait.
And oh, how hard it is to actually get to know in which part of the
world you are in right now and where your oupost is...
> So I create my character, who gathers a few companions and goes to talk
> to the mayor.
Where do you even find that mayor ? All towns i find are just filled
with shops and empty houses, which are built in a long line.
> Anyway, what more is there to say? The game is incredible. You now
> how everyone looked forward to JADE? Forget JADE. Forget ADOM.
> Forget ToME. Forget Crawl. Forget Nethack. This game is better than
> all of them. It's an amazing feat for one person to code all of this.
> Did I mention there's another game? You can also play a real time
> strategy game, where you lead a team of dwarves in the building of a
> city.
Now THIS part is whats actually amazing about the game. ASCII Settlers
2 ? And actually BETTER than Settlers 2 ?
WOW.
Gamer_2k4
> with shops and empty houses, which are built in a long line.
In human towns, the mayor is inside one of the buildings. He should be
purple. Remember there is another row of buildings below the road.
Gamer_2k4
Ray Dillinger
> The thing that's amazing about the game is how much detail and thought
> went into it. There are clouds, weather patterns, seasons, night and
> day (your FOV and the colors of your surroundings change accordingly),
> and a lot more. I checked the weather once when I was playing at work,
> and it said "The sky is clear. The sun is setting in the west." Ok,
> sounds good so far. I play a few games and I'm hooked. So when I go
> home, I generated a world for my home computer. Naturally, I check the
> weather again. "The sky is cloudy. The sun is setting in the east."
> The EAST??? This new world is spinning the wrong way! Who thinks of
> this stuff? Amazing!
Amazing, but in this case wrong. "North" is defined in terms of the
planet's spin. Venus, for example, has a retrograde rotation, so its
"north pole" points in the direction of our southern cross.
Bear
Krice
> Anyway, what more is there to say? The game is incredible. You now
> how everyone looked forward to JADE? Forget JADE. Forget ADOM.
> Forget ToME. Forget Crawl. Forget Nethack. This game is better than
> all of them.
The world creation seems to be impressive, but I was also lost
in the gameplay. What you are supposed to do? Moving around seems
to move the map. I can't go anywhere. I don't know what to do.
What's happening here? Am I just too stupid to play this?
I can't forget games like Nethack. They can have a bit complex
user interface, but at least you have some kind of clue and you
can indeed play the game in some way (that's what a game
should be - play-able) and even become better at it.
By the way, pressing '?' didn't work. Nothing happened, I guess
the key codes don't match.
Gamer_2k4
> planet's spin. Venus, for example, has a retrograde rotation, so its
> "north pole" points in the direction of our southern cross.
If that's true, then the sun should always set in the "west".
Normal Planet
N
WOE
S
spin >, sun sets in the west
Upside Down Planet
S
EOW
N
spin >, sun sets in the east.
So either the planet's going backwards, or the planet's upside down.
It's still more thought than a lot of people would give to world
generation.
BTW, I thought that it was Venus's magnetic north that was upside down,
and that it's the polar north that was correct. Maybe I'll look into
that sometime.
Gamer_2k4
Martin Read
>BTW, I thought that it was Venus's magnetic north that was upside down,
>and that it's the polar north that was correct. Maybe I'll look into
>that sometime.
Venus is peculiar; its day is longer than its year, so the sun
*does* set in the east.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "it is not hands that summon us..." - Pinhead, _Hellraiser II_
\/
Gamer_2k4
> > planet's spin. Venus, for example, has a retrograde rotation, so its
> > "north pole" points in the direction of our southern cross.
Oooohhhhhh, I see what you were saying. If the planet is spinning
"backwards", it's spinning the correct way, but is upside down. Well,
maybe the sun is setting in the magnetic east. ;)
Gamer_2k4
tarn....@gmail.com
> maybe the sun is setting in the magnetic east. ;)
>
> Gamer_2k4
That's what I was thinking anyway -- I concede that I knew nothing
about it. If you reverse the spin of the earth, aside from everybody
suddenly dying, would the magnetic field change? I keep hearing about
the magnetic field reversing etc, so I went we the tentative assumption
that magnetic north and "spin" north (from something like the right
hand rule) can be different. Of course, maybe it doesn't even need a
magnetic north if it is made out of different materials.
CCD
it immediately and ran it. And wow, the intro really delivers. I thought
the small clips in LCS were good, but this just owns it. Too bad I need
some sleep now, but I really can't wait to play this. :D
Flub...@gmail.com
Tbh, I really didn't like that game very much. The underlying gameplay
has some incredibly obnoxious problems with mechanical differences. I
like the flavor, but without supporting mechanics extra flavor means
nothing. I don't really care what type of tree I am seeing or what kind
of leather my item is made of because there is no mechanical difference
that I can see. That is effort better spent on increasing mechanics.
Gamer_2k4 wrote:
> The thing that's amazing about the game is how much detail and thought
> went into it. There are clouds, weather patterns, seasons, night and
> day (your FOV and the colors of your surroundings change accordingly),
> and a lot more. I checked the weather once when I was playing at work,
> and it said "The sky is clear. The sun is setting in the west." Ok,
> sounds good so far. I play a few games and I'm hooked. So when I go
> home, I generated a world for my home computer. Naturally, I check the
> weather again. "The sky is cloudy. The sun is setting in the east."
> The EAST??? This new world is spinning the wrong way! Who thinks of
> this stuff? Amazing!
Great, I really don't care which way the world sins (and I never
checked the weather either), because it doesn't meaningfully affect the
game. Unless each season has its own *large* amount of season-exclusive
things, I don't want seasons. Changing FOV in night was a nice touch I
admit, but color change is a terrible idea for a roguelike unless it is
put in for a special reason (such as the flashing colors of karmic
creatures and the chaos-infused rainbow level I67 in ADOM.) With color
change in day and night, that is just more things that I have to use
the look command for or memorize.
> There's so much detail put into the game. Forget the days of 'T' being
> a generic tree. I've seen oaks, maples, pines, acacias, and other
> trees. In elven cities the trees are even named!
And since when did it matter that the trees are named? Substance before
flavor, as I said above. Unless I am tapping maples for their sap or
cutting down pines and oaks and waiting for them to regrow/spread their
seeds and grow more of them, I don't care what type of tree it is.
>The same detail
> applies to caves, dungeons, and dwarf cities. There's no "rock wall".
> Instead, you see walls of shale, limestone, and many other rocks.
And how exactly does this help the mechanics? I assume that it might be
easier to tunnel through shale than granite (never got a pickaxe), but
that is all the use I can see.
> Armor comes in many materials, including copper and other metals,
> various types of wood, and various types of leather.
This isn't a trading game. Different materials of armor is standard in
roguelikes, wood is extraneous, and leather is just plain ridiculous.
> I've seen alligator leather shirts, as well as leather from other
> animals. Often in the game you will see lizards scurrying about, or
> butterflies and birds flying around. Swarms of flies buzz around near
> swamps. There's so much detail, and it's a lot of fun to play.
That is all flavor stuff you mentioned. More flavor doesn't make games
that much funner, only a little.
> So I create my character, who gathers a few companions and goes to talk
> to the mayor. Talking is pretty well done, you can trade, ask about
> the surroundings, where the capital is, if they want to join you, and
> if they have any quests for you. When you ask about the surroundings,
> they will tell you of a place, how far it is, its inhabitants, and its
> HISTORY!
As in any roguelike
> Anyway, the mayor tells me I need to kill a particular giant. My five
> companions and I set off towards the giant's location. On the way, we
> are waylaid by a skeletal warthog. I move to the warthog and start
> attacking. It charges me, my character steps aside, and the warthog
> HITS THE TREE BEHIND ME AND FALLS DOWN!!! I stab him a few times with
> my spear, which suddenly gets stuck in his leg.
Becuase we all know how spears get stuck in skeletons...
> Just as a side note, the game is very graphic (even though it's in
> ASCII) when it comes to combat. Spines break, kidneys get pierced, and
> blood is everywhere. I've actually shuddered a few times as I thought
> about how bad the actions described must hurt. Also, combat does not
> use the generic D&D hitpoint system like every other roguelike. Each
> monster has several body parts that can be damaged, as well as internal
> organs. There's pain, and monsters can pass out from it. When a
> monster dies, it's because it bled to death.
That is probably the best thing in this game tbh. That doesn't save the
game from being obnoxious though.
> Anyway, now my spear is in the warthog's leg. Instead of pulling it
> out, my character starts twisting it. The warthog passes out, and I
> keep twisting until it bleeds to death.
The *skeletal* warthog. If a game will implement something, it should
be done in the right way. Having undead bleed is not the right way. I
never fought a skeletal warthog though, so this never happened to me.
We move on, and eventually
> reach the giant's cave. As my companions take his bodyguards, I move
> in to fight him. With my first attack, he tackles me and we both fall.
> We get up and start hacking at each other. Suddenly, the giant grabs
> my arm. I can't move away because I'm being held. I attack him, break
> his arm, and he released his hold. The floor and walls turn red as I
> kill him. Unfortunately, now his guards are coming after me, so I take
> my remaining companion and get out of there.
The ability to be tripped is a nice touch in this game, as well as the
targetted damage as I said before.
> We meet a bear coming back. Combat occurs like before, only now the
> bear latches onto my leg. Finally it tears off a chunk, spits it out,
> and keeps attacking me. I kill it, and as I'm leaving I notice a human
> chunk on the ground. Ugh.
Nice flavor, but I don't think you would have taken stat damage from
that. As I keep reiterating, if a game wants to put in this detail, it
should be logical. Either require a suspense of disbelief in any one
aspect, or require none. When a game is detailed enough to have bears
ripping chunks out of your leg, the mobility loss, dex loss, carrying
capacity loss, etc. should be weighed in. Most roguelikes just skip
this by not having critical wounds happen to you.
> We return to town, and tell the mayor we completed the quest. I decide
> to check out my companion's health to see if we're ready to go again.
> Good, everything looks in place. Okay...okay...Wait a second. His
> left eye is there, but where is his right one? I scan the body parts
> list again but don't see it. I check his inventory (which is on the
> same screen). Copper hammer (in hand), copper shield (in
> hand)...copper short sword (stuck in head). WHAT!?!?! As I reread it,
> I realized what happened to his right eye. Ouch. We must have shocked
> people as we walked into town.
Copper short sword, stuck in head but mysteriously still allows
survival. Your companion didn't even bother to remove it from his
head...
> Anyway, what more is there to say? The game is incredible. You now
> how everyone looked forward to JADE? Forget JADE. Forget ADOM.
> Forget ToME. Forget Crawl. Forget Nethack.
Nobody looks forward to JADE because it will be released in 2013 at the
earliest. As for the other games, there is no reason to ditch them for
this new game (except Nethack. It suffers from too much unrelated shit
that kills flavor syndrome.)
This game is better than
> all of them. It's an amazing feat for one person to code all of this.
No matter how good his coding was, I won't play the game because I
appreciate his coding. I will play it because it is good. Things like
ToME and ADOM are pretty much 1-man jobs and they are better IMO.
> Did I mention there's another game? You can also play a real time
> strategy game, where you lead a team of dwarves in the building of a
> city. The city is added to the map, and you can visit it later.
Ok, that is a remarkable thing. Unfortunately, that is not the
roguelike game in question, so I am not commenting on it. That is more
something I play without playing the associated roguelike.
I've
> almost given up roguelike development because I know there's almost no
> way for me to top this game. It is truly remarkable.
You could top it in several ways: Make a game that emulates dungeons
and dragons more truly than any other game, make a game that has a very
high level of AI-player interaction, or make a game with an enormous
length, even longer than nethack. Also more ways you could, but I will
stop ranting now.
ToadyOne
> the key codes don't match.
You can play with the key bindings from the options menu (ESC), and in
the versions 19b+ it won't crash there:) It's all very alpha-ish, and
I didn't have extra computers/keyboards to test it on. I'm hoping to
get it somewhat sorted out as time goes on.
ToadyOne
game play, but that I hope they will later. Rather that waiting for
the game to be completely done, which is unlikely (as usual), I
released it now, that's all. I tried to lay the groundwork for a lot
of additions in the future, although admittedly not in the best way at
many points.
As for the different wood/rock types, they affect mechanics in the
dwarf section of the game. You can trade in the dwarf mode for
instance. Viewing these as two different games is not what I intended.
Although interactions are somewhat minimal (although you can adventure
in your old fortresses), I hope to increase this aspect of the game
with time.
> Becuase we all know how spears get stuck in skeletons...
Skeletons don't bleed, pass out or have stuck-ins. If they do, it was
a bug.
There are mobility losses and so on from wounds, but it's not complete.
> Copper short sword, stuck in head but mysteriously still allows
> survival. Your companion didn't even bother to remove it from his
> head...
He he he, it is a bit extreme right now, but improvable.
I certainly don't advocate ditching other games, etc. And clearly my
game could be changed and improved. I'm still working on it. Having a
project in progress is not unusual for an ASCII game like this. A lot
of people are enthusiastic about it because it has some novel features,
and really, that's what I was going for, but it's very rough right now.
Gamer_2k4
> > to the mayor. Talking is pretty well done, you can trade, ask about
> > the surroundings, where the capital is, if they want to join you, and
> > if they have any quests for you. When you ask about the surroundings,
> > they will tell you of a place, how far it is, its inhabitants, and its
> > HISTORY!
> As in any roguelike
What roguelikes have that? The only games I can think of that might
have a history are Angband and its variants (only implicitly, because
they are based on a book) and ADOM (where the history is rarely, if
ever, mentioned in game).
> > Anyway, now my spear is in the warthog's leg. Instead of pulling it
> > out, my character starts twisting it. The warthog passes out, and I
> > keep twisting until it bleeds to death.
> The *skeletal* warthog. If a game will implement something, it should
> be done in the right way. Having undead bleed is not the right way. I
> never fought a skeletal warthog though, so this never happened to me.
My bad, for undead it says they are "struck down." That was an error
on my part, not one in the game.
> > We meet a bear coming back. Combat occurs like before, only now the
> > bear latches onto my leg. Finally it tears off a chunk, spits it out,
> > and keeps attacking me. I kill it, and as I'm leaving I notice a human
> > chunk on the ground. Ugh.
>
> Nice flavor, but I don't think you would have taken stat damage from
> that. As I keep reiterating, if a game wants to put in this detail, it
> should be logical. Either require a suspense of disbelief in any one
> aspect, or require none. When a game is detailed enough to have bears
> ripping chunks out of your leg, the mobility loss, dex loss, carrying
> capacity loss, etc. should be weighed in. Most roguelikes just skip
> this by not having critical wounds happen to you.
It's quite possible that my speed was decreased. I don't pay too much
attention to it.
> > Anyway, what more is there to say? The game is incredible. You now
> > how everyone looked forward to JADE? Forget JADE. Forget ADOM.
> > Forget ToME. Forget Crawl. Forget Nethack.
> Nobody looks forward to JADE because it will be released in 2013 at the
> earliest. As for the other games, there is no reason to ditch them for
> this new game (except Nethack. It suffers from too much unrelated shit
> that kills flavor syndrome.)
Let's see...the other games have a single dungeon you can explore, or a
small static overworld with a few dungeons. This games has dungeons,
caves, ruins, you name it. That's right; you can go dungeon-trekking
in this game if you want.
> > This game is better than all of them. It's an
> > amazing feat for one person to code all of this.
> No matter how good his coding was, I won't play the game because I
> appreciate his coding. I will play it because it is good. Things like
> ToME and ADOM are pretty much 1-man jobs and they are better IMO.
Well obviously I don't play because of the author either. I was just
trying to commend all of his work.
> > I've almost given up roguelike development because I know there's
> > almost no way for me to top this game. It is truly remarkable.
> You could top it in several ways: Make a game that emulates dungeons
> and dragons more truly than any other game, make a game that has a very
> high level of AI-player interaction, or make a game with an enormous
> length, even longer than nethack. Also more ways you could, but I will
> stop ranting now.
First, the reason I like this game is its originality. It's hard to
beat originality by copying another game (D&D). Second might be and ok
way to better it. Third, Nethack can be beaten in 8 hours, or so I've
heard. It's not very long for a roguelike.
Gamer_2k4
Karnot
> The game is an alpha, so a lot of things are in there that don't affect
> game play, but that I hope they will later. Rather that waiting for
> the game to be completely done, which is unlikely (as usual), I
> released it now, that's all.
We do understand, please carry on. :)
Arakon
ToadyOne wrote:
> The game is an alpha, so a lot of things are in there that don't affect
> game play, but that I hope they will later. Rather that waiting for
> the game to be completely done, which is unlikely (as usual), I
> released it now, that's all. I tried to lay the groundwork for a lot
> of additions in the future, although admittedly not in the best way at
> many points.
It's very very impressive. There's no game that satisfies everyone.
> As for the different wood/rock types, they affect mechanics in the
> dwarf section of the game. You can trade in the dwarf mode for
> instance. Viewing these as two different games is not what I intended.
> Although interactions are somewhat minimal (although you can adventure
> in your old fortresses), I hope to increase this aspect of the game
> with time.
This sounds like a lot of fun to me - even if a lot of it is just
flavor and different
words, it is still a nice addition. It makes the world feel larger and
more interesting.
> I certainly don't advocate ditching other games, etc. And clearly my
> game could be changed and improved. I'm still working on it. Having a
> project in progress is not unusual for an ASCII game like this. A lot
> of people are enthusiastic about it because it has some novel features,
> and really, that's what I was going for, but it's very rough right now.
You definitly hit on something good.
Could I ask if you could reveal some of your tricks for generating the
world
histories? I find that to be one of the more interesting aspects,
especially
implementation-wise.
Also, one suggestion - an option for a smaller world may be nice as
well.
The generation time (Even though it is very much worth it) does take
quite a
while.
Slash
ToadyOne wrote:
> The game is an alpha, so a lot of things are in there that don't affect
> game play, but that I hope they will later. Rather that waiting for
> the game to be completely done, which is unlikely (as usual), I
> released it now, that's all. I tried to lay the groundwork for a lot
> of additions in the future, although admittedly not in the best way at
> many points.
And that was a good decision, else yours would be yet another
overambitious hyperrealistic roguelike promising world and heaven but
without anything to show. ;)
> As for the different wood/rock types, they affect mechanics in the
> dwarf section of the game. You can trade in the dwarf mode for
> instance. Viewing these as two different games is not what I intended.
> Although interactions are somewhat minimal (although you can adventure
> in your old fortresses), I hope to increase this aspect of the game
> with time.
Flavor is important on roguelikes, it increases inmersion
SNIP
> I certainly don't advocate ditching other games, etc. And clearly my
> game could be changed and improved. I'm still working on it. Having a
> project in progress is not unusual for an ASCII game like this. A lot
> of people are enthusiastic about it because it has some novel features,
> and really, that's what I was going for, but it's very rough right now.
Thats ok... your opinions and questions are welcome here, would be nice
if you participated more in this newsgroup for two things: a) Share
your experiences on the development of this game, which I know many
people would appreciate and b) get valuable input about enhancing your
game from the inside, how to make something more fun from the engine
you have and how to abstract and simplify things that just have to be
simplified.
Well... just my 2 pesos
--
Slash
[http://www.santiagoz.com]
ToadyOne
> world
> histories? I find that to be one of the more interesting aspects,
> especially
> implementation-wise.
Sure, I don't mind talking about any of it. What part did you mean?
The stuff shown in world generation or the in-game legends? In
general, I just store a list of important things that have happened and
when. I haven't needed to trim it yet, but that'll probably have to
happen when it starts collecting too much dust. Or did you mean the
map generation itself?
> Also, one suggestion - an option for a smaller world may be nice as
> well.
> The generation time (Even though it is very much worth it) does take
> quite a
> while.
My brother and I were just talking about this -- there are a few
hassles since some of the earlier code is a little inflexible, but it's
something I want to do. It'll make it easier for people to send world
files around as well, and it would be fun to have little challenges on
a 40x20 world fixed by its seed. Later on it would interesting to
allow some editing as well, though the formats aren't stable enough to
set that up for now.
ToadyOne
> if you participated more in this newsgroup for two things
I can try. The google reader has been a bit easier on me than whatever
little text thing I'd been using in my office in previous years.
Arakon
ToadyOne wrote:
> Sure, I don't mind talking about any of it. What part did you mean?
> The stuff shown in world generation or the in-game legends? In
> general, I just store a list of important things that have happened and
> when. I haven't needed to trim it yet, but that'll probably have to
> happen when it starts collecting too much dust. Or did you mean the
> map generation itself?
Mostly the in-game legends, and histories of places. When talking to
the townsfolk,
how they pick a nearby place and mention it, and then add in a little
history/info
blurb about it. I guess that may be somewhat related to map generation
also?
When generating the map, are the towns vs. dungeons/ruins/etc placed
randomly, "grown", or other? Are they inter-dependant at all?
Is there a big table that determines the "flavor" of a place ( 'general
evil', 'lots of wolves', etc?), or does that get populated some other
way?
> My brother and I were just talking about this -- there are a few
> hassles since some of the earlier code is a little inflexible, but it's
> something I want to do. It'll make it easier for people to send world
> files around as well, and it would be fun to have little challenges on
> a 40x20 world fixed by its seed. Later on it would interesting to
> allow some editing as well, though the formats aren't stable enough to
> set that up for now.
ohh - yes, the ability to specify a seed when creating the world - That
would be really neat. I'm generators are very seed-based, as is some
skill usage.
Slash
Even big maps like current ones could be shared by creating a file that
contains the map seed and a serialized list of changes, which I think
would be much lighter than sharing the whole map.
What structure are you using to store the map?
--
Slash
ToadyOne
Arakon wrote:
> Mostly the in-game legends, and histories of places. When talking to
> the townsfolk,
> how they pick a nearby place and mention it, and then add in a little
> history/info
> blurb about it. I guess that may be somewhat related to map generation
> also?
> When generating the map, are the towns vs. dungeons/ruins/etc placed
> randomly, "grown", or other? Are they inter-dependant at all?
Yeah, they do a floodfill on the world map away from their current
location, and pick the something that gets hit without crossing
impassable terrain. Quests are handled like this too, but the mayor
only floodfills 10 squares, while the civ leader does the whole map.
They don't have many criteria for separating things out now, but it can
be made more interesting with time. Right now, ruins are just sort of
random, but as world generation becomes more interesting I hope to
source them to civ collapses. It probably looks more interesting than
it actually is right now, but I guess that's part of the charm.
> Is there a big table that determines the "flavor" of a place ( 'general
> evil', 'lots of wolves', etc?), or does that get populated some other
> way?
Yeah, the world map is divided into about 1000 subregions based on the
terrain type, and then it gives each subregion a list of creatures.
The world map squares also have several fields like rainfall and
temperature that determine biomes, as well as fields like "evil" and
"savagery" that determine which subregion populations are encountered.
These latter fields can be altered by killing creatures that come from
them.
ToadyOne
> Even big maps like current ones could be shared by creating a file that
> contains the map seed and a serialized list of changes, which I think
> would be much lighter than sharing the whole map.
>
> What structure are you using to store the map?
I'm just storing it block by block, and then compressing it onto the
disk with zlib. In the first Armok (which didn't get very far), I
tried the map seed + list idea, but here, since map generation takes a
reaaaally long time, it would be a pain to force people to sit through
it. The saved world folders are only about 10MB, which is large, but
not... prohibitively large for most things, with email the way it is
these days. There are also a lot of things changing on the map, so the
change list might eventually exceed the map size. For instance, when
you kill an evil creature, it decreases the "evil" of a square by one
on the world map. This sort of thing would probably add up very
quickly. Although the stored universe is large, I can just sort of
smash and alter it gleefully, which is sort of relaxing. The same is
true of all the site maps (towns, caves, etc.).
R. Dan Henry
>The world generator surely rules, I hadnt seen something similar before
>http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/screens/world_map1.PNG
That's very impressive. Very busy, though. So many different symbols
mean interpretation will take a fair amount of time to learn and I
question whether it tries to be too detailed, but it certainly is
impressive.
--
R. Dan Henry = danh...@inreach.com
gf
Maybe use less ASCII symbols and color-code them?
--
Griogos
Christopher Brandt
> Did I mention there's another game? You can also play a real time
> strategy game, where you lead a team of dwarves in the building of a
> city.
I don't really know, but what you added as a side note is by far the
main part of the game. The complexity you will meat there will overrun
you like hell if you like the adventure mode (which has been a great
surprise on the day of the release, I think).
Christopher Brandt
Corremn
It does not take long to get used to the symbols. I really did not
even think this would be an issue to hard-core roguelike gamers. I like
the look.
This game uses symbols to fill in the gap where our imaginations fail.
"Look a tree" turns into "look an acacia."
Aquillion
Flub...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tbh, I really didn't like that game very much. The underlying gameplay
> has some incredibly obnoxious problems with mechanical differences. I
> like the flavor, but without supporting mechanics extra flavor means
> nothing. I don't really care what type of tree I am seeing or what kind
> of leather my item is made of because there is no mechanical difference
> that I can see. That is effort better spent on increasing mechanics.
>
It should be pointed out that most of the things you criticized related
to the game's "fortress" mode; adventurer mode is really quite
bare-boned at the moment, no matter how much people like it. Most of
those things will also become important in fortress mode once the
ability to do things you can do in fortress mode is added, though (such
as crafting and so forth), so when I say below that something is
important in fortress mode, remember that in most cases it will
eventually be used to support similar options in adventure mode.
> Gamer_2k4 wrote:
>
> > The thing that's amazing about the game is how much detail and thought
> > went into it. There are clouds, weather patterns, seasons, night and
> > day (your FOV and the colors of your surroundings change accordingly),
> > and a lot more. I checked the weather once when I was playing at work,
> > and it said "The sky is clear. The sun is setting in the west." Ok,
> > sounds good so far. I play a few games and I'm hooked. So when I go
> > home, I generated a world for my home computer. Naturally, I check the
> > weather again. "The sky is cloudy. The sun is setting in the east."
> > The EAST??? This new world is spinning the wrong way! Who thinks of
> > this stuff? Amazing!
>
> Great, I really don't care which way the world sins (and I never
> checked the weather either), because it doesn't meaningfully affect the
> game. Unless each season has its own *large* amount of season-exclusive
> things, I don't want seasons. Changing FOV in night was a nice touch I
> admit, but color change is a terrible idea for a roguelike unless it is
> put in for a special reason (such as the flashing colors of karmic
> creatures and the chaos-infused rainbow level I67 in ADOM.) With color
> change in day and night, that is just more things that I have to use
> the look command for or memorize.
>
Seasons have a huge impact in fortress mode, of course, since they
affect everything from planting and shrub growth to immigration and
trade caravans. In either mode they'll affect the monsters and
wandering animals, and cause rivers and water sources to freeze in the
winter.
> > There's so much detail put into the game. Forget the days of 'T' being
> > a generic tree. I've seen oaks, maples, pines, acacias, and other
> > trees. In elven cities the trees are even named!
>
> And since when did it matter that the trees are named? Substance before
> flavor, as I said above. Unless I am tapping maples for their sap or
> cutting down pines and oaks and waiting for them to regrow/spread their
> seeds and grow more of them, I don't care what type of tree it is.
>
The named trees are to indicate to the player that the Elves view those
trees as people and will take offense accordingly if the player damages
them. Cutting down trees is currently only possible in dwarf mode, of
course, but there the variety of wood can impact value and will impact
the sturdiness of things built from them; some dwarves also have wood
preferences, which can be used to help keep them happy.
> >The same detail
> > applies to caves, dungeons, and dwarf cities. There's no "rock wall".
> > Instead, you see walls of shale, limestone, and many other rocks.
>
> And how exactly does this help the mechanics? I assume that it might be
> easier to tunnel through shale than granite (never got a pickaxe), but
> that is all the use I can see.
>
All of the issues with different varieties of wood apply to varieties
of stone. Additionally, certain kinds of stone can be used for certain
things... Obsidian, for instance, can be used to make obsidian
weapons.
> > Armor comes in many materials, including copper and other metals,
> > various types of wood, and various types of leather.
>
> This isn't a trading game. Different materials of armor is standard in
> roguelikes, wood is extraneous, and leather is just plain ridiculous.
>
In Fortress mode it -is-, to a great extent, a trading game. Wood
equipment is important because you can make it quickly and easily
without needing a forge or any ore, although obviously it's not going
to be as useful as metal stuff. Leather types are mostly details,
true, although it does matter for dwarf preferences and trading.
Additionally, later on in Fortress mode, you'll have to deal with madly
inspired dwarves trying to create artifacts and nobles demanding
various leisure items; these people can make demands for specific kinds
of wood, leather, stone, and so forth.
> > I've seen alligator leather shirts, as well as leather from other
> > animals. Often in the game you will see lizards scurrying about, or
> > butterflies and birds flying around. Swarms of flies buzz around near
> > swamps. There's so much detail, and it's a lot of fun to play.
>
> That is all flavor stuff you mentioned. More flavor doesn't make games
> that much funner, only a little.
You can actually eat some of those small animals, even in Adventurer
mode. (Eating worms and beetles to survive is probably no fun, but
nobody said it would be a glorious life.) In Fortress mode you can
capture and train them, set up zoos to entertain your dwarves, sell
them as trade goods, or put them to work in various ways. Mammals of
any sort can be milked, spiders can produce webs to be woven into silk,
meat-bearing animals can be farmed to produce meat, and animals whose
bodies produce other side-products, such as leather or bone, can be
farmed for those.
Additionally, of course, small animals are often disturbed by large
ones moving nearby... even if you don't see the giant or band of
bandits bearing down on you, you could realize that something's up when
all the birds in the area suddenly take flight. Details can be
important if you can clue the player in as to when to pay attention to
them.
>
> > We meet a bear coming back. Combat occurs like before, only now the
> > bear latches onto my leg. Finally it tears off a chunk, spits it out,
> > and keeps attacking me. I kill it, and as I'm leaving I notice a human
> > chunk on the ground. Ugh.
>
> Nice flavor, but I don't think you would have taken stat damage from
> that. As I keep reiterating, if a game wants to put in this detail, it
> should be logical. Either require a suspense of disbelief in any one
> aspect, or require none. When a game is detailed enough to have bears
> ripping chunks out of your leg, the mobility loss, dex loss, carrying
> capacity loss, etc. should be weighed in. Most roguelikes just skip
> this by not having critical wounds happen to you.
>
Damage (such as this) to a limb will seriously limit the abilities of
the character in question. It wasn't mentioned in the previous post,
but it certainly would have been there. And, of course, if the limb
had been further damaged it could've been utterly broken or destroyed
completely, rendering the player almost immobile.
> > Did I mention there's another game? You can also play a real time
> > strategy game, where you lead a team of dwarves in the building of a
> > city. The city is added to the map, and you can visit it later.
>
> Ok, that is a remarkable thing. Unfortunately, that is not the
> roguelike game in question, so I am not commenting on it. That is more
> something I play without playing the associated roguelike.
>
Really, the 'adventure' mode is more proof-of-concept than anything
else at the moment... its main purpose right now is to work off stress
from a failed fortress by running out and getting torn to pieces by
bears. In the longer term, of course, the adventure mode is intended
to utilize the details added for fortress mode, but one of its main
'selling points', so to speak, is supposed to be its fortress mode
tie-ins... exploring the ruins of your old fortress, finding artifacts
and other items made by your dwarves, seeing first-hand the effects of
your dwarves' foreign policy in the rest of the world, and so forth.
Gamer_2k4
Yes, I realize that fortress mode is the main part of the game. I
focused on reviewing adventurer mode because it was more like a normal
roguelike (also, my dwarves were getting ticked off because I had no
idea how to get buckets). When you realize that fortress mode is the
main game, the seemingly unnecessary complexity of adventurer mode
makes sense.
Gamer_2k4
Balaam
something so massive on your own! I admire the scope. I've enjoyed
tinkering with it a lot. but the interface is extremely daunting -
consider "locking" some of it away until it's actually usuable?
*you have made your first bucket! The construct well option has been
unlocked?
Or something similar. After a while the interface is easily usable but
you often find yourself asking the question
-what should i build? what do the dwarfs need? what does X do? why do I
need barrels? etc etc
It would be nice if the game could gently non-intrusively, nudge you
now and again, or provide a little blurb with the building options of
what this selection will do for you.
Karnot
Balaam wrote:
> *you have made your first bucket! The construct well option has been
> unlocked?
in the first place, if you didnt know what it was for ?
And later, what, build one copy of each and every item just to unlock
EVEN MORE building options ? This wont be a nudge, it will be a dog for
a blind.
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski
Balaam wrote:
> This game is excellent congratulations on succesfully building
> something so massive on your own! I admire the scope. I've enjoyed
> tinkering with it a lot. but the interface is extremely daunting -
> consider "locking" some of it away until it's actually usuable?
Ah, the myth of 'newbie' and 'expert' interface switch :)
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski
"Computer Science is no more about computers than
astronomy is about telescopes." [Edsger Wybe Dijkstra]
ToadyOne
> This game is excellent congratulations on succesfully building
> something so massive on your own! I admire the scope. I've enjoyed
> tinkering with it a lot. but the interface is extremely daunting -
> consider "locking" some of it away until it's actually usuable?
I currently only lock away certain buildings that are exposed after
deep digging and a few other triggers. Right now in-game it tells you
what you need for a building, but not when you need it, however ->
> -what should i build? what do the dwarfs need? what does X do? why do I
> need barrels? etc etc
A lot of the problems like this come from the weakness of the manual
and the lack of tutorials. In the manual, under the "Your First
Outpost" section, there's some help on these issues. It might be nice
to add some tutorial fortresses though, little premade things that give
you cues and guide you through things like farm building and so on. I
could make a dwarf face pop up and say "Good job, miner!".
It's a fun game to flounder around in (I think anyway), but there
probably comes a time when a user just finally wants to do one of the
activities successfully. Sort of like reading Nethack spoilers to
avoid dying or something.
Flub...@gmail.com
frustrated that day, and I want to tell you how much I actually admire
your effort and dedication to this game. The two improvements you could
do that really do have an effect on what people think are A: Don't have
items stuck in peoples' heads. Yeah, it sounds cool, but it really
screws with the realism. That is just minor to me though; if it is
annoying, it isn't actually bad. B: The most sheerly obnoxious thing in
your game is the plethora of different colors. I feel like I am having
a flashback from an acid trip when I start playing the game. An
extremely valid thing to do when differentiating among, say, trees, is
to make them the same color, then reveal their type when either
'l'ooked at or, ADOM-style, you can just have the game display the
subtype of terrain when you step on it and not have them different
colors. It works fine in ADOM for tombstones with different quotes on
them and for statues, and looking at your game it should work
there.There is nothing vitally important about your differentiations
(it isn't like you will die or cause a cave-in if you happen to dig
through one rock type instead of another, and even if this were the
case you don't dig for that large a part of the game), so it really
would help on sensory overload to simplify the colors.
Corremn
While playing adventure ( a while after a reaload) I had just completed
a quest and was wandering about on map made when I look at my adventure
log. It said I had to report the death of "Thixil Fisherstruck". I
then pressed 's' for sites and the game instantly crashed.
Brendan Guild
news:1155316998.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
> the disk with zlib. In the first Armok (which didn't get very
> far), I tried the map seed + list idea, but here, since map
> generation takes a reaaaally long time, it would be a pain to
> force people to sit through it.
Why does the map generation take so long? Is that time requirement
inevitable, or is there some inefficiency somewhere? If I were you, I
would not stand for long map generation.
It is almost certain that it would not take noticeably long to build as
much map as the player can see at once. If building an entire world is
taking too long, then it should be built as the player is playing.
Either you can build the map as it is needed, or you can build just
enough for the player to get started and then build the rest while the
player is thinking between turns.
It really should not be necessary to make the player wait. On the other
hand, if the player must wait, then why? What algorithm are you using
to generate the map so that it cannot be done in steps?
ToadyOne
> A: Don't have items stuck in peoples' heads. [etc]
Well, there was that one guy that got the rail road spike shot through
his head and lived. It probably would have stuck if his brain had been
more viscous. I think sometimes, especially with tails and hands and
so on, the stuck ins are a little strange now, and whips stick in,
which is odd.
> B: The most sheerly obnoxious thing in your game is the plethora of different colors. [etc]
Some people have grown to like it, and I like it, but you can turn off
some of the diversity in the init file, and there should probably be
more display options like that. Also, people tend to dislike some of
the displays when they've only seen screenshots, since there are some
animations (the river for example), that make the apparent colors of
one frame make more sense. On the other hand, some people just want to
see a single tile for a river, and I have no problem with that, but the
crash bugs remain at the top of the list...
ToadyOne
Thanks. This issue is known, and I've received a few more save files
today. I'm not sure what's causing it, but it seems like a lot of the
regional information is wiped out after a reload, rarely. Hopefully I
can squash it at some point.
ToadyOne
> Why does the map generation take so long? Is that time requirement
> inevitable, or is there some inefficiency somewhere? If I were you, I
> would not stand for long map generation.
The total map generation time that people are referring to includes the
world history animations and the saving to the disk of ~10000
historical figures. The process of creating the terrain itself just
overlays a few simple fractals (for elevation / temperature / rainfall
/ "savagery") and doesn't take very long (aside from the erosion
simulation). Because the generation of the history of the world up to
the year 1050 (play start time) relies on world-wide information, I
march the years up creating all of the civilizations and historical
figures as they arise. Faking the histories seems like a lot of work,
since you'd have to then generate the objects to which they are
referring as they arise (although I do this with some site
information), maybe leading to inconsistencies (depending on what we
mean by all this), and they wouldn't be able to refer to world-wide
events as efficiently (as above). At the suggestion of some posters on
my forum, I've posted 4 pregenerated maps on my website so the player
can skip this stage if they like, and I've recently included a command
line world generator so people can generate worlds while they do other
things.
That said, there are several inefficiencies at various stages of the
process that will just take effort to correct.
The maps of individual adventure sites don't require as much work and
generate fairly quickly, at least in my experience. These are then
saved to the disk after the visit. The game ends up taking a lot of
space (and more and more as you explore more sites), but since the
dwarf fortress part of the game requires a reasonably speedy computer
to run well, I've also decided to use disk space for some things,
rather than regenerating them. Part of that is just a time issue for
me personally.
Tarn
Balaam
creation process, you are creating a world after all. And it's nice to
watch the generation take place.
Is it possible to avoid certain worlds being rejected or is this
inevitable?
It's great achievement I can't wait to see where it goes! :D
Slash
ToadyOne wrote:
> Brendan Guild wrote:
> > Why does the map generation take so long? Is that time requirement
> > inevitable, or is there some inefficiency somewhere? If I were you, I
> > would not stand for long map generation.
>
> The total map generation time that people are referring to includes the
> world history animations and the saving to the disk of ~10000
> historical figures.
Perhaps making history animations optional would be best for people
that just want to have his world generated and would take much less
time.
> The process of creating the terrain itself just
> overlays a few simple fractals (for elevation / temperature / rainfall
> / "savagery") and doesn't take very long (aside from the erosion
> simulation).
Lol, it is almost the same model I use (see the pics at
http://www.santiagoz.com/articles/mundosVirtuales.php) with the
difference that I run a cellular automata afterward fractals, Im
curious what's the savagery fractal used for and how is it generated?
> Because the generation of the history of the world up to
> the year 1050 (play start time) relies on world-wide information, I
> march the years up creating all of the civilizations and historical
> figures as they arise. Faking the histories seems like a lot of work,
> since you'd have to then generate the objects to which they are
> referring as they arise (although I do this with some site
> information), maybe leading to inconsistencies (depending on what we
> mean by all this), and they wouldn't be able to refer to world-wide
> events as efficiently (as above). At the suggestion of some posters on
> my forum, I've posted 4 pregenerated maps on my website so the player
> can skip this stage if they like, and I've recently included a command
> line world generator so people can generate worlds while they do other
> things.
>
> That said, there are several inefficiencies at various stages of the
> process that will just take effort to correct.
Have you run a profiler over the process? I am sure it doesnt have to
take THAT long on a modern computer... there must be something to fix
some where :p
And Im afraid that factor may take people away from your game, which
would be a shame
SNIP
>
> Tarn
--
Slash
Ray Dillinger
> Brendan Guild wrote:
>
>>Why does the map generation take so long? Is that time requirement
>>inevitable, or is there some inefficiency somewhere? If I were you, I
>>would not stand for long map generation.
>
>
> The total map generation time that people are referring to includes the
> world history animations and the saving to the disk of ~10000
> historical figures.
Tell ya what. Include one or two pre-generated worlds with
the game. While a game is running, create new ones in the
little intervals between keystrokes after the player starts
one of the extant ones. So the game could just keep working
until it has, say, the next seven worlds lined up.
The player gets a new history and world every game and
doesn't have to wait. If you update the screen *before*
going off on the little tangent, he'll never notice.
Alternatively, you could make world generation into its
own separate program and rely on the computer's operating
system to manage running it while other things (possibly
including playing the game) are going on in the foreground.
Bear
Gamer_2k4
> unlocked?
AAAAA! You've made a bucket? How? How?
I couldn't figure out how to do that. What do you need? How do you
start it?
Gamer_2k4
Elethiomel
You need a carpenter's workshop. Then you can add the "make wooden
bucket" task to it. Workshops are found under "workshops" in the build menu.
--
A good signature is a concise and original summary of personality. This
is not a good signature.
ToadyOne
> Is it possible to avoid certain worlds being rejected or is this
> inevitable?
It could do a better job by setting up the initial fractal with enough
data to more or less ensure that a fair mix of biomes get generated.
The erosion sim takes quite a while, and often changes the biomes
enough to cause a late reject. Erosion has a reasonably nice effect on
the map, but it could even be turned off in an init/world gen
parameters screen to speed things up. Without erosion it would
probably be pretty straightforward to get most of the worlds through
without a problem.
ToadyOne
> Perhaps making history animations optional would be best for people
> that just want to have his world generated and would take much less
> time.
Without the history the world isn't/won't be as rich as it should be,
and I'd just recommend grabbing a pregenerated map at that point. You
can use the same world after every fortress/adventurer and enriching
the history is a part of play. There aren't any numerical high score
lists, though it will keep more stats over time.
Slash:
> Im curious what's the savagery fractal used for and how is it generated?
It's generated like the other fractals (one of those midpoint type
routines) and just says how many giant mythical creatures wander that
place. So a "savage" tundra might have yeti type things, while a
reasonable "calm" one might just have some hooved creatures and the
occasional bear. The history sim also corrupts regions as it goes
along -- this increases the 'evil' field of the map, though this field
starts at 50% everywhere (regions can also be set to be good, at which
point things like fairies and unicorns appear). It isn't really
integrated with the march of history right now (region corruptions just
happen in the year 600), because I was too lazy at this point to have
the civs avoid them, though I'll get back around to it.
Slash:
> Have you run a profiler over the process? I am sure it doesnt have to
> take THAT long on a modern computer... there must be something to fix
> some where :p
He he he -- I'm not even going to bother until I fix the worst
offenders (and the MSVC profiler seems to be crashing with my OpenGL,
or some such thing). Some of it is very shabby. There's really a lot
to do. On the other hand, it's only going to become more complicated,
so my optimizations will probably balance the complications as they go
along. Or, the complication will win...
ToadyOne
> Include one or two pre-generated worlds with
> the game. While a game is running, create new ones in the
> little intervals between keystrokes after the player starts
> one of the extant ones. So the game could just keep working
> until it has, say, the next seven worlds lined up.
These are good suggestions, but the idea is to play in the same world
over and over, enriching the history through your deaths -- world
generation only has to be done once (although it's an alpha so they
often get corrupted). I can't include pre-gen'd worlds due to
bandwidth, until I've added a reduced-size option, but I've posted 4 on
my site, so players really never have to do generation if they don't
want to. My history generator is pretty bare bones right now -- the
best moments usually come from exploring your old ruined fortresses
with an adventurer or having the cyclops that has killed your last 3
adventurers shout out a list of their names and what he thinks of them.