Dungeon morphing
jice
few people here because I don't think it has been done before (but I
may be wrong because my roguelike knowledge is far from extensive).
It describes how to apply a lerp operation between two dungeons :
http://jice.nospam.googlepages.com/dungeonmorphing
--
jice
Krice
> It is an old article from my blog, but I think it might interrest a
> few people here because I don't think it has been done before
It looks like a complicated way to get cavern-like level.
Ido Yehieli
> It looks like a complicated way to get cavern-like level.
Doesn't look that complicated to me.
dominik...@gmail.com
complicated, because you need to run the dungeon generator first. But
imagine being in a dungeon and casting the spell 'Earthquake': I think
this is a good way of transforming the dungeon. Wall tiles shouldn't
just randomly collapse, discovering the whole level, right?
Mingos.
Pfhoenix
dominik...@gmail.com
> Walls should collapse and new stone ones push up.
Why? I think new walls shouldn't appear...
Brog
> > Walls should collapse and new stone ones push up.
>
> Why? I think new walls shouldn't appear...
ceiling collapses => new wall!
dominik...@gmail.com
ceiling collapses = a heap of rubble on the ground.
Martin Read
Depends how thick the ceiling is.
When the ceiling has several hundred metres of rock above it, a
collapsed ceiling = a new wall.
--
\_\/_/ turbulence is certainty turbulence is friction between you and me
\ / every time we try to impose order we create chaos
\/ -- Killing Joke, "Mathematics of Chaos"
Perdurabo
> dominikmarc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> ceiling collapses => new wall!
>
> >ceiling collapses = a heap of rubble on the ground.
>
> Depends how thick the ceiling is.
>
> When the ceiling has several hundred metres of rock above it, a
> collapsed ceiling = a new wall.
> --
Has anyone thought about doing this dynamically in-game? Apart from
the obvious usage as atmosphere in an Indiana-Jones style RL, I could
see this being an interesting addition to gameplay in certain
circumstances, e.g. if you progressively collapse a level the longer
the player stays on it, a level with powerful enemies that the player
wants to keep as many walls between them and him for as long as
possible...
Best,
P
Gamer_2k4
> On Jun 7, 9:33 pm, Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > When the ceiling has several hundred metres of rock above it, a
> > collapsed ceiling = a new wall.
> > --
>
> Has anyone thought about doing this dynamically in-game?
I'm actually going to have the dungeon collapse immediately after the
player defeats the final boss in my game. He'll have to get to the
surface amidst all that.
However, that's a long way off, and I'd appreciate it if you'd forget
that by the time you play my game. ;)
--
Gamer_2k4
Perdurabo
Forget what? *grins*
Best,
P.
Inuga...@gmail.com
> dominikmarc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> ceiling collapses => new wall!
>
> >ceiling collapses = a heap of rubble on the ground.
>
> Depends how thick the ceiling is.
>
> When the ceiling has several hundred metres of rock above it, a
> collapsed ceiling = a new wall.
ceiling collapses on player = damage/kill player depending on how
thick the ceiling is, create new walls around player
Pfhoenix
> the obvious usage as atmosphere in an Indiana-Jones style RL, I could
> see this being an interesting addition to gameplay in certain
> circumstances, e.g. if you progressively collapse a level the longer
> the player stays on it, a level with powerful enemies that the player
> wants to keep as many walls between them and him for as long as
> possible...
I have in my design notes for Adeo a list of environment changing
effects that result from explosions, combat, or other things. Part of
the intended implementation involves every object having material
definitions. That's a long ways off, though.
- Pfhoenix
http://adeo.pfhoenix.com
Mario Donick
> I have in my design notes for Adeo a list of environment changing
> effects that result from explosions, combat, or other things. Part of
> the intended implementation involves every object having material
> definitions. That's a long ways off, though.
This makes me think of implementing a real physical model in a RL, as
done in several modern games today. The new Alone in the Dark seems to
make this rather good.
Mario
I Own The Letter O
Whilst not on the same scale as a whole dungeon mess-around. Does any
RL's that you know of implement a possible cave-in through to much
mining. Other than simply consuming lots of food and time and the risk
of wandering monsters characters seem to be able to endlessly mine
levels looking for hidden vaults or precious metals (depending on the
roguelike). When I implement mining/digging etc I intend to run a
probability based on the type of material their digging into and the
amount of digging already down. For example...
###
###
.@. will probably not collapse... but...
...
.#.
.@. will probably cause a quite band cave-in if the material isn't
strong enough to hold the weight above it.
Monsters could interact with the dungeon in a similar way. A dragon
breathes acid at you, ha-ha you cry I have acid resistance and all my
equipment does too... Oh poop the walls have melted though and now the
roof has fallen on my head... Double poop I don't have roof
resistance... YASD!
You could all the way and have an astral realm/crazy maze that is
constantly morphing just outside the players FoV. Kind of like the
film Labyrinth.
Just killed an impossibly tall giant in a dungeon (how he squeezed in
doesn't really matter). The big beastie falls over in his death
throes, squashing several enemies (they didn't have roof resistance
with is transferable to falling giants as well) and causing a seismic
wave that bring some roof down.
Also what is caving in during the cave in. Could the features of the
level above come down, a watery level above and you get rain, a stream
of lava could be bad, just escaped an OOD monster on the previous
level oh poop he's fallen through the cave in and now you and it are
trapped surrounded by lava.
I've gone quite a way from the original topic, but I feel it's all
pertinant to the subject of a morphable (i.e. changable) dungeon.
deej
> On 8 Jun, 14:52, Mario Donick <mario.don...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Pfhoenix schrieb:
>
> > > I have in my design notes for Adeo a list of environment changing
> > > effects that result from explosions, combat, or other things. Part of
> > > the intended implementation involves every object having material
> > > definitions. That's a long ways off, though.
>
> > This makes me think of implementing a real physical model in a RL, as
> > done in several modern games today. The new Alone in the Dark seems to
> > make this rather good.
>
> > Mario
>
> Whilst not on the same scale as a whole dungeon mess-around. Does any
> RL's that you know of implement a possible cave-in through to much
> mining. Other than simply consuming lots of food and time and the risk
> of wandering monsters characters seem to be able to endlessly mine
> levels looking for hidden vaults or precious metals (depending on the
> roguelike). When I implement mining/digging etc I intend to run a
> probability based on the type of material their digging into and the
> amount of digging already down. For example...
>
Well ADOM will collapse the level on you if you're able to kick down
walls and you kick the stairs...
I Own The Letter O
> Well ADOM will collapse the level on you if you're able to kick down
> walls and you kick the stairs
I've never been that destructive in ADOM (I've tried kicking statues
and the like but have never been strong enough, me == wimp).
I like little touches like that, it makes you feel like the world is
more fleshed out (kind of like being able to pummel a werewolf to
death with your silver rings and the like). Its a sign of an
imaginative developer when you discover little tweaks like that. If I
destroy all the supports of a section of roofing then I expect it to
come down, if I tunnel through a wall into a vault waist deep in water
I expect the water to flow out (or a description of the change in
floor level if it doesn't and I step into it). I'd like wooden doors
to catch fire if I evade a flaming arrow whilst standing next to it. I
want the moon on a ruddy stick and I want it now!!!
Krice
> If I destroy all the supports of a section of roofing then I
> expect it to come down
Funny thing is that I was thinking this the other day when I
was designing some level themes. First it could be a warning
like small earthquake and some rocks falling from ceiling,
but if the player continues digging then the level could
collapse, but even then it could be possible to survive.
> I'd like wooden doors to catch fire if I evade a flaming
> arrow whilst standing next to it.
I'm going to implement fire as an element so you can do
that and much more:)
Inuga...@gmail.com
It also depends on how the dungeon is structured. Are you heading UP
or are you heading DOWN.
Another factor could be persistant levels. Say you were going DOWN in
a dungeon and you finished the floor below. Say you had several items
on the floor above in a convieniently placed 3x3 area in a room right
above you that you really needed right now (you're in a room with a
single entrance, with alot of nasty monsters outside that you don't
want to meet at the moment because you just lost your weapons and
armour to a thief). It's gonna be a pain to get up there and get those
items this instant. Now, say you had a bomb, and some way to get that
bomb to the ceiling above (Bow and Arrows, Legend of Zelda style). We
fire a bomb at the ceiling where the items we want are and move away
(don't want to be crushed). Bomb explodes and we get a nice 3x3 area
of wall. We dig through the wall and we retrieve our items. Some might
be destroyed or a little broken and you might dig out a monster, but
it's just the price of convienience.
WAIT! There's more! We could then use the familiar bomb delivery
device to go UP the dungeon. Blow up the ceiling, climb onto the
rubble then climb to the floor above, maybe burying some monsters in
the process. We could do the same the other way around. We could blow
up a floor to get down, or blow it up under some monsters because we
didn't want to meet them face to face at the moment (or as an escape
tactic).
So how can we make this MORE practical/troublesome for the player? It
just handles itself. Players can use floor/ceiling destruction to make
dungeon escapes/assaults easier, and it will hurt the player later on
if supposing players didn't count on the fact of future circumstances.
For example: there's a hole they made into a cieling when they were
just entered the dungeon (to get items from above paragraph) that is
now, 10 levels (5 from the current floor going down to get prized
artifact and 5 going up) later, making what was once a would-be easy
escape an unnerving hell because there's a 3x3 hole between the player
and the exit (remember getting those items? hehe) and there's now a
mob of angry hellspawn behind the player. The player could dig through
the wall around the hole or jump in and blow up another 3x3 section to
climb the rubble to the other side, hoping monsters don't catch up (or
fall on the player, explained below).
In the above I assume we have both dungeon persistance and monsters on
other levels of the dungeon active, not just the ones on the same
level as the player but on every level of the dungeon (at least the
current floor, the floor above, and the floor below). Monsters must be
able to somehow travel with these holes in the floors/cielings. One
amusing idea would be to allow the player/monster to blindly jump/trip/
fall down a hole and hurt/kill another player/monster. Idea was came
from Urban Terror (Q3A mod gone standalone), where players could jump
off buildings to "goomba stomp" other players.
Another odd idea would be to have those old-school shops with a
managing NPC and items all over a floor in a town above a dungeon (it
pains me to question why towns are built above dungeons) or inside a
dungeon. When you travel down the dungeon, you can blow the floor of
the NPC shop and loot the items (of course you would end up with one
pissed-off NPC chasing you through the dungeon).
I Own The Letter O
>
> - Show quoted text -
Being able to destroy the roof leads to more tactical choices as well.
Surrounded by several Greater Fire Elemental who have melted your
special blanket and threaten to give you a bad suntan... Hmmm I
remember the floor above had a river!
Just found a nice ring of lava and roof resistance but are surrounded
by annoying monsters that breed faster than you can kill them and
they're slowly wearing you down... Hmmm I remember the floor above had
a stream of lava running through it!
You may not neccessarily always need to use bombs. If you have time
you could dig upwards. This would be a lot more stealthy for breaking
into the lovely shop with all the goodies you can't afford, and runs
less risk of them being destroyed as well. The choice of bombs over
shovel is like the choice between smashing through a door or taking
the time to 'O'pen it and 'C'lose it again behind you (some
adventurers were obviously born in a barn when it comes to this).
I think it is always a good idea to run the monsters on the previous
level (and possibly the next as well). This means a monster could
track you between floors. Why do we assume that monsters can only
follow you down stairs if they're standing next to you at the time you
descend, if at all. Does a magic barrier stop them from descending,
what a crazy world that would be.
Inuga...@gmail.com
refer to the ceiling from now on) tiles two single-digit stats:
strength (same as health) and weight.
Strength tells how much a floor tile may hold before it collapses,
weight is related to this (Items have weight, and so may the player
and any NPCs).
Strength (0-9) would, define how much weight a floor may be burdened
before it breaks. The less strength the floor has, the less weight is
required for it to break. Weight that would break the floor tile comes
from the tiles connected to it as well as any items on top of the
current/neighbor tiles. Also, strength would act as "HP" for the floor
tile (seeing as adding a third variable to . The more you dig/damage
the floor tile (some weapons do more damage to floor tiles), the
weaker it gets. Example strengths: Floors of 0 strength are holes, 1
strength will break if anything half the player's weight (without
items) steps on it, and 5 would be dungeon average (whatever that
would be).
Weight (0-9), is how much a floor tile weighs itself. This is
important for one big reason: floor tiles connected to other floor
tiles will "weaken" tiles ajacent to them if they aren't next to a
wall (those that are don't weaken other tiles but can be weakened
themselves, thus a special condition for floors next to walls, they
weigh nothing), are of the strength or aren't a pillar (basically a
wall on the floor below, if a pillar is connected to a ceiling but not
a strong floor, it will break the ceiling). The best way to describe
this is to place plastic wrap over a bowl, but have it loose on some
edges and roll a marble onto it to see how it sags (or collapses) at
certain points.
Now, I could see a room with this weight distro (# is a wall, numbers
are weights, D is a door):
###D###
#00600#
#04530#
#05250#
#02570#
#00600#
###D###
Now, the strength chart:
###D###
#00900#
#02530#
#03250#
#02570#
#00900#
###D###
(note that the 9s are actually 6s next to two walls and a door,
another wall, giving +1 each to those tiles)
I'll presume that strength will use this to calculate
"breaking" (don't use this, it is only used as an example, and a
horrible one at that):
If 3S < W { snapfloor }
Since we have two 9 tiles (S = 18, 3S = 54) sharing the burden of that
particular 3x3 area (W = 38) is within holding limits. If one of those
9 strength tiles were to be destroyed the other tile cant handle the
weight, (S = 9, 3S = 27, W = 38, 27 < 38), and the 3x3 area will snap
off of the remaining 9 strength tile and fall to the level below.
Bad example, I know. But it should get the point across. You could
then have floors that gradually break apart because adjacent tiles
were too weak, and then have tiles with less than W+1 strength next to
that tile break off randomly on top of that.
Another possibility is that large enough rooms filled with tiles of
equal strength and weight could hold up, but be more fragile towards
the center, and more sturdy towards the edge. I can imagine players in
a large featureless room filled with trolls to strip themselves naked
and scattering their loot (to avoid breaking the floor tiles) and run
around the center of the room in the area that will just barely
support their weight in order to draw in stupid trolls. Or players
making mad dashes into a moderate sized rooms, lightly equipped
(again, spreading out their loot) to get an artifact that's in the
center of the room.
To make things fair, players could look at the floor (it would give
some use to looking at individual tiles without monsters and items)
too see its composition (for weight) and how damaged/durable it looks
(for strength). Or more convieniently (but less cautiously), players
could look at everything within their line of sight or the room their
in and "sum up" the situation (best done at doorways). Monsters could
also need floor-plan assessments put into their pathfinding to figure
out whether it would be too risky to cross rooms (or not, depending).
If the monster/player has a float/flight intrensic, make it temporary,
as things which don't touch the ground aren't succeptable to the floor
hazard.
Also, faster things apply more weight to the floor, having a higher
chance to break the floor (this applied to jumping, running, being
thrown, falling from other floors, etc). On top of that, add tripping.
Tripping would put the player in a temporary run state (making the
player faster) in the direction for one cell s/he last went. If a
player trips into a wall, the player will be injured slightly, if the
player trips into nothing and into the floor, the floor might break if
there was enough weight applied. Consider the following situation: a
floor where there are Orc Warriors and Bottles of Alchohol and/or Rare
Potions (+20 HP/MP permanant, +5 all stats, and others with similar
value, everything's 100-proof) everywhere. The player could rush in to
get the potions, and risk getting a lot of whuppass on the way through
because of lots of thirsty Orcs, or the player can wait it out, losing
out on the Rare Potions, and let Orcs do what Orcs do best (or every
other living being in fantasy worlds for that matter) and let them
party! With lots of drunken, heavily equiped orcs, stumbling, tripping
into walls, and falling through floors or into holes. Of course, if
the player decided to get drunk or happens to cheerfully provide
alchohol to the less-than-friendly dungeon denizens (all unIDed items
are considered landmines in roguelikes nowadays, so why not focus on
the fact semi-seriously with getting PCs/NPCs drunk with 100-proof
potions? now we have CONSENTUAL landmines >D), we could get alot of
YASDs and YASVs.
One advantage to this is that what the player wears and carries is
more important. Do I slippers that make me walk quietly, the running
shoes that make me run faster, or go for the standard armoured boots?
Do I wear a shirt, or full-plate? Am I carrying too much? Would I
break the floor if I dropped too many items here? Do I drink this
potion that will benefit me, but make me drunk or should I just litter
the level with potions I don't need?
Pfhoenix
What you're effectively talking about is calculating tensor fields
(spring joined bodies in grid formations) for floor strengths and
breaking points. Very expensive if you want to do it properly. Much
simpler, if you're going to go this route at all, to simply have
individual floor strengths and not tie them to their neighbors.
To address another point - when cave-ins happen, whether in a house or
an actual cave, it's not so much that walls are pushed upwards as
ceiling material and detritus falls downwards in such heaps that you
are effectively blocked by the heaps. Remember - we're talking about
caves of stone and rock, not a timber shack with a tin roof.
- Pfhoenix
http://adeo.pfhoenix.com
I Own The Letter O
Perhaps you only tie them into their neighbours when an event occurs
that might affect them. You could only check them if a neighbour
collapses or is struck by a heavy weight.
You are correct to point out that it wouldn't generate new walls
rather debris (~ or what ever you use for rubble etc). There would
also be a lot of noise, especially in a confined space (sonic
resistance?) and lots of dust that would obscure vision, cause
coughing, ruin any tracks that have been made. Of course this extra
layer of dust would also coat and reveal invisible monsters, possibly
reveal drafts created by hidden doors and create a perfect layer on
the floor (if a different colour) for enemies or the player to leave
tracks in.
This leads to even more tactical opportunities.
Inuga...@gmail.com
complicated something is, the more ways the players could creatively
abuse it.
So I rethought the original, and I think I figured out a way it could
be improved. Use the minesweeper approach.
You could give individual tiles strength: 0, 1-9, W.
0 tiles are broken and act like W tiles in looking at weaknesses.
W tiles are tiles that will have a set percent chance of breaking if
the player is above a certain weight. They will break if a tile next
to them that is a W breaks.
1-9 determines the strength of the tile, or the number of W tiles
around it. 9 tiles are pretty sturdy and hold alot of weight, but
aren't found next to W tiles or 0 tiles.
So determining tile strength:
T = Tile being evaluated
N = count of W tiles and 0s around evaluated tile (min 0, max 8)
S = Strength (lower is worse)
S=9-N
Now we just litter rooms, or entire levels (hallways and all) with W
tiles and 0s and you're set.
--------
Another aspect that should be discussed with collapsable levels in
mind is how you'd generate multi-floor dungeons that would allow and
emphasize this gameplay aspect. This came up when I thought about the
huge and empty levels (see the troll paragraph). I could think of one
major flaw: it's would only work if the floor below was the same, wall-
less and huge. Otherwise, the walls of the lower level would hold up
the current floor or you wouldn't fall to the bottom floor, just a
midway floor. So, levels below and above had a significant impact on
how the current level could be played.
My only three solutions to this were: 1) Handcrafted sets of levels
(it's already done), 2) Generate the next floor in accordance to the
current floor (or mutate it in a way that the floor is similar in some
ways to the current), 3) Incorperate a Z axis into the dungeon
generator.
This also brings up something interesting: Multiple ladders
(staircases to some), dead ends, and vaults only easily accessable
through other levels. Or a player might use a magic map (one that maps
an entire level, not a nerfed one that maps only the accessable areas)
and find out there's a vault (should be filled with lots of nice
things) thats pretty much tough to get to through digging, so the
player could go to some room above and make a hole to the vault below
(how the player gets up depends on the game), but then the player
would have to dig his/her way out. Another result is that you could
generate levels with little to no horizontal connectivity and have
multiple ladders per level for vertical connectivity. Also, new item:
portable ladder, for those adventurous few who like making holes in
floors and want to safely go up/down them with ease.
Pfhoenix
cavernous level *every time the adventurer uses stairs*, you would
think that floors/ceilings would not just be well supported, but thick
enough that simply walking, regardless of how weakened, wouldn't cause
a cave in. Earthquakes, sure. Destroying vital supports, not likely -
though that would make a cave-in easier in lieu of other, major
effects (like earthquakes). How do you explain a water level directly
above or below a lava one? Or is such consistency not a concern?
- Pfhoenix
http://adeo.pfhoenix.com
David Damerell
>Ignoring entirely the pure effort required to carve out a new
>cavernous level *every time the adventurer uses stairs*, you would
>think that floors/ceilings would not just be well supported, but thick
>enough that simply walking, regardless of how weakened, wouldn't cause
>a cave in.
In populated areas, that would obviously be true, but a chunk of dungeon
might be abandoned for a reason, or undergoing a seismic turmoil. Perhaps
there's a bit of game in exploring inherently dangerous terrain - while
fending off malignant intangible monsters, like ghosts?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Gorgonzoladay, June - a weekend.
Inuga...@gmail.com
Dungeon personality =D
It should be related to story, dependant on the location (where
dungeon is located), purpose (what it's used for and when was it
used), and design (who made it, how, and when was it made) of the
dungeon. If the dungeon is natural, man-made, or both. Natural
dungeons aren't as consistant. Man-made dungeons should have more
reliable floors/ceilings. Lava should appear on mid-to-lower levels of
the dungeon, and water being more prominant in the early-to-mid
levels. Of course that's saying that we're just having a normal
dungeon (stereotypical average that tries to be sensible).
Ocean-side dungeons on an island with an active volcano might have
lava appear on earlier levels and water appear on later levels.
Dungeons in non-volcanic regions would have lava appear in later
regions. Dungeons in dry conditions might have little water. If the
dungeon is in an earthquake area, the entire dungeon may be weaker
than another dungeon somewhere else. Orcs might build their dungeons
in a shoddier, more or less incomplete fashion (rooms that aren't very
well braced or are irregular) generally safe (in the stay-away-from-
the-only-pillar-so-you-don't-accidentally-bump-into-it-and-
accidentally-bring-down-half-of-the-ceiling-of-the-room sense).
Dwarves may be safety freaks and place pillars at regular intervals in
rooms, and more of them (and you could just strut through earthquakes
without fear). Humans might combine both dwarves and orc designs, but
the "unnatural" rectangular rooms will gradually disappear at the end
of the middle levels (you're pretty safe throughout the dungeon,
earthquakes might hurt, but they aren't that bad). Natural dungeons
may be twisting labrynths or cavernous, and would be fairly
inconsistant (you'd have a pillar of rock here and there, maybe even a
lake), being safe in some areas while being completely unstable in
others (mines of cultivated races would be a tad more consistant in
integrety than natural caves) and may have more expansive levels but
less levels overall.
Consistancy shouldn't matter if you're going to make it an obstacle/
feature. It should matter somewhat if you wish to gradually change how
you want the player to play later on. It should matter if you wish to
fix illogical things.