Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

after a long time ...

16 views
Skip to first unread message

Mario Donick

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 6:52:33 AM10/1/07
to
Well ...

As you might have noticed, neither "Roguelike. The magazine." nor my
RL "LambdaRogue" have made progress during the last half year. The
so-called "Real Life" was more important and more exciting than hanging out
in newsgroups, programming useless games or writing articles in bad
english.

However, some of the existing RTM articles could be still interesting, so if
anybody wants to copy them into RogueBasin or on some other website (of
course mentioning my name), he/she can do it (and should do it within the
next two weeks, because RTM will go off then, to not confuse anybody
anymore).

Concerning my RL: Within the next days I will play the latest version of
LambdaRogue and check if it is still fun to me, after having ignored it
over months. If I enjoy playing it, I will continue to develop it, when
autumn and winter have arrived ...

so long,
Mario


--
LambdaRogue: http://donick.net/lambdarogue.html


Krice

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 2:09:33 AM10/2/07
to
On 1 loka, 13:52, Mario Donick <mario.don...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> "Real Life" was more important and more exciting than hanging out
> in newsgroups, programming useless games

Guess it depends on what kind of "real life" you have.
My life is so sad that I have to escape to fantasy worlds.
Everything is important and yet nothing is important.

Jakub Debski

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 3:51:41 AM10/2/07
to
Krice formulated on wtorek :

> Guess it depends on what kind of "real life" you have.
> My life is so sad that I have to escape to fantasy worlds.
> Everything is important and yet nothing is important.

Stop grumbling and do something with your life.

regards,
Jakub


Krice

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 5:08:21 AM10/2/07
to
On 2 loka, 10:51, Jakub Debski <debski.ja...@wp.pl> wrote:
> Stop grumbling and do something with your life.

Someone has to be a loser. It seems that we all can't win.
For some people earth can be hell and for others it's heaven.
Heaven and hell are within us.

Gerry Quinn

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 9:44:12 AM10/2/07
to
In article <4700d141$0$16103$9b4e...@newsspool1.arcor-online.net>,
mario....@googlemail.com says...

> Well ...
>
> As you might have noticed, neither "Roguelike. The magazine." nor my
> RL "LambdaRogue" have made progress during the last half year. The
> so-called "Real Life" was more important and more exciting than hanging out
> in newsgroups, programming useless games or writing articles in bad
> english.
>
> However, some of the existing RTM articles could be still interesting, so if
> anybody wants to copy them into RogueBasin or on some other website (of
> course mentioning my name), he/she can do it (and should do it within the
> next two weeks, because RTM will go off then, to not confuse anybody
> anymore).

You could always leave it on, just changing the notice to say it is
closed down. After all, people may want to read the two issues that
were done.

It is the more roguelike approach :-)

- Gerry Quinn

oeb

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 9:52:33 AM10/2/07
to

It could be worse Krice, I don't even write rougelikes and I lurk here.
Who is really the biggest loser?

Gamer_2k4

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 12:36:57 PM10/2/07
to
On Oct 2, 4:08 am, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> Someone has to be a loser. It seems that we all can't win.
> For some people earth can be hell and for others it's heaven.
> Heaven and hell are within us.

Nonsense. The only thing that separates losers from the rest of us is
that they're too darn lazy to care. Anyone can change if they make
the effort.

--
Gamer_2k4

Alexm...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 4:38:07 PM10/2/07
to

I don't know about that, do you really think the elephant man could
have been not a loser if he not been to lazy to care? Could he have
ever been King of homecoming? Could he ever achieve his dream of being
a world renown plastic surgeon? Would you ever go hang at his house
after school to just chill and play some halo? Not that I'm saying
Kirce is the elephant man or anything, just that in some cases this
"pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps" mentality is wrong. Sometimes
it's not a matter of effort, sometimes things are the way they are.

Malorzean

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 6:43:09 PM10/2/07
to

Yay, Flame War!!!

Malorzean

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 7:55:43 PM10/2/07
to
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:52:33 +0100, oeb
<what.will.i....@gmail.com> wrote:

>Who is really the biggest loser?

I believe he called himself "Bateau".

--
R. Dan Henry = danh...@inreach.com
If you wish to put anything I post on your website,
please be polite enough to ask first.

Keith H Duggar

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 9:16:09 PM10/2/07
to

I confess I didn't read the entire Life RL thread, so if
somebody else has already suggested this I apologize. My
recommendation is that you join a gym, and start pumping
iron and also join a martial arts dojo (currently I tend
toward Aikido but pretty much any will do). I think this
combo will give you something to do, it will be fun, and
you will get in shape and you will meet people.

KHD

Slash

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 11:46:22 PM10/2/07
to
On Oct 2, 3:38 pm, Alexmor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 2, 9:36 am, Gamer_2k4 <gamer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 2, 4:08 am, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
>
> > > Someone has to be a loser. It seems that we all can't win.
> > > For some people earth can be hell and for others it's heaven.
> > > Heaven and hell are within us.
>
> > Nonsense. The only thing that separates losers from the rest of us is
> > that they're too darn lazy to care. Anyone can change if they make
> > the effort.
>
> > --
> > Gamer_2k4
>
SNIP

> Sometimes
> it's not a matter of effort, sometimes things are the way they are.

Yes.

This is not the case.

--
Slash


Slash

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 11:47:28 PM10/2/07
to
On Oct 2, 6:55 pm, R. Dan Henry <danhe...@inreach.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:52:33 +0100, oeb
>
> <what.will.i.do.with.a....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Who is really the biggest loser?
>
> I believe he called himself "Bateau".

He was called Twisted One. Mother.

;)

>
> --
> R. Dan Henry = danhe...@inreach.com


> If you wish to put anything I post on your website,
> please be polite enough to ask first.

--
Slash

oeb

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 4:03:03 AM10/3/07
to

Seconded.

Alternitivly pick up a non coding hobby, preferebly one that can get you
talking to other people. It's sleight of hand for me, a good magic
effect is a fantastic icebreaker.


perdu...@googlemail.com

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 4:39:52 AM10/3/07
to
On Oct 3, 9:03 am, oeb <what.will.i.do.with.a....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Keith H Duggar wrote:

<snip>


>
> Alternitivly pick up a non coding hobby, preferebly one that can get you
> talking to other people. It's sleight of hand for me, a good magic

> effect is a fantastic icebreaker.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The love of a good woman (or man) can be incredibly effective as well.

Cheesy, but very true.


oeb

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 5:57:26 AM10/3/07
to

Ya but I think it's women that are messing him up at the moment, so I
don't know how useful this advice is =D

perdu...@googlemail.com

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 6:38:57 AM10/3/07
to
On Oct 3, 10:57 am, oeb <what.will.i.do.with.a....@gmail.com> wrote:

Obviously then its the love of a *bad* woman that is the problem
*grins*.

Best,
Perdura

windywinter

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 8:05:52 AM10/3/07
to
Is this some kind of preparation for SoapOpeRL game development?
Or simply Krice and other participants mistyped group name - instead
of 'rec.tv'.

Regards,
v

oeb

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 8:40:20 AM10/3/07
to

Reminds me of a recent YASD - I was a HuWd (Web Developer) in Ireland:3

David Damerell

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 8:37:10 AM10/3/07
to

What he said. What is this, agony aunt hour? I recommend Krice sets
himself on fire and STFU.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Gorgonzoladay, September - a weekend.

perdu...@googlemail.com

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 10:37:39 AM10/3/07
to
On Oct 3, 1:37 pm, David Damerell <damer...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:

> Quoting windywinter <wojciech.gebc...@gmail.com>:
>
> >Is this some kind of preparation for SoapOpeRL game development?
> >Or simply Krice and other participants mistyped group name - instead
> >of 'rec.tv'.
>
> What he said. What is this, agony aunt hour? I recommend Krice sets
> himself on fire and STFU.
> --


I once played a Kult PnP RPG with a similar plot - Malkuth had hidden
the fragments of an ascended (or whatever the term is in Kult, I
forget) inside a Soap Opera - each fragment had a (clashing)
personality of his/her own and we had to work together to reveal the
truth.

Not sure how this is applicable to this NG or to RLs, but there you
go....

Best,
Perdura.

lochok

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 7:24:22 PM10/3/07
to

Ummm... in reverse!?

Lochok

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 7:30:38 PM10/3/07
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:47:28 -0000, Slash <java....@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Oct 2, 6:55 pm, R. Dan Henry <danhe...@inreach.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:52:33 +0100, oeb
>>
>> <what.will.i.do.with.a....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Who is really the biggest loser?
>>
>> I believe he called himself "Bateau".
>
>He was called Twisted One. Mother.

Oh, no. Much as he of the many nyms who has made a fool of himself many
times in the r.g.r.* groups might qualify as a loser, he is head and
shoulders above Bateau.

--
R. Dan Henry = danh...@inreach.com

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 7:30:39 PM10/3/07
to
On 03 Oct 2007 13:37:10 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>What he said. What is this, agony aunt hour? I recommend Krice sets
>himself on fire and STFU.

He can't. He's a loser and his wand of fire of stolen by a nymph, after
which she bruised his ego with cruel comments on his appearance. (Hmmm.
Now, there's a game idea. Low stat characters who get taunted by
appropriate monsters.)

Low Strength: "The Governor says, 'Get lost, girlie man!' -more-"
"The Governor kicks sand in your face."

Eh, make up your own examples.

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Oct 3, 2007, 7:30:38 PM10/3/07
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:38:57 -0700, "perdu...@googlemail.com"
<perdu...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Obviously then its the love of a *bad* woman that is the problem
>*grins*.

Oh, I could go for the love of a "bad woman" right now...
;-)

Krice

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 2:43:13 AM10/4/07
to
On 3 loka, 04:16, Keith H Duggar <dug...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> iron and also join a martial arts dojo (currently I tend
> toward Aikido but pretty much any will do). I think this
> combo will give you something to do, it will be fun, and
> you will get in shape and you will meet people.

I don't like.. people. In general. Some are ok.
I don't like this world, it's not very suitable for
my saint-like high spiritual level.

Ray Dillinger

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 3:58:55 AM10/4/07
to
Krice wrote:
> I don't like.. people. In general. Some are ok.
> I don't like this world, it's not very suitable for
> my saint-like high spiritual level.

Y'know, I think I'd renounce any view of religion where
it was possible to have a saint-like high spiritual level
and still be miserable all the time.

Bodhisatvas, on the whole, are happy people. If you're
capable of high spirituality and want to be happy, maybe
you should look into Buddhism.

I'm pretty sure the Catholics, with their idea that great
sufferings are visited upon the virtuous (and a lot of them
who believe, although the church doesn't teach it, that
suffering itself is virtuous) have it wrong.

Bear

Timofei Shatrov

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 6:15:31 AM10/4/07
to
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:30:38 -0700, R. Dan Henry <danh...@inreach.com> tried to
confuse everyone with this message:

>On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:47:28 -0000, Slash <java....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 2, 6:55 pm, R. Dan Henry <danhe...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:52:33 +0100, oeb
>>>
>>> <what.will.i.do.with.a....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >Who is really the biggest loser?
>>>
>>> I believe he called himself "Bateau".
>>
>>He was called Twisted One. Mother.
>
>Oh, no. Much as he of the many nyms who has made a fool of himself many
>times in the r.g.r.* groups might qualify as a loser, he is head and
>shoulders above Bateau.

But Bateau had the coolest attribution line ever!

____ On ..........
\__/___ ........ ran through the
LI-\o-' streets of ...........
| waving an axe and screaming:
/ \

--
|Don't believe this - you're not worthless ,gr---------.ru
|It's us against millions and we can't take them all... | ue il |
|But we can take them on! | @ma |
| (A Wilhelm Scream - The Rip) |______________|

Krice

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 6:29:39 AM10/4/07
to
On 4 loka, 10:58, Ray Dillinger <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Y'know, I think I'd renounce any view of religion where
> it was possible to have a saint-like high spiritual level
> and still be miserable all the time.

Isn't that only logical? Who could be happy in a place
like this if he is spiritual? Being spritual doesn't
mean you have to close your eyes from reality..

> capable of high spirituality and want to be happy, maybe
> you should look into Buddhism.

..which is important in buddhism. These guys escape from
reality and that's it. They don't need to be spiritual
at all, because they never have to face the reality and
spiritual troubles it always has.

> I'm pretty sure the Catholics, with their idea that great
> sufferings are visited upon the virtuous

Indeed!

Brog

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 7:18:32 AM10/4/07
to
On Oct 4, 6:43 pm, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
>
> I don't like.. people. In general. Some are ok.
> I don't like this world, it's not very suitable for
> my saint-like high spiritual level.

IMO saints earn the title by bringing good into the world. Retreating
into a cave to hide from the evils of the world makes you an anchorite
(religious hermit), not a saint.
The best definition of saint I can think of is one whose life
approximates that of Jesus [replace with your preferred incarnation of
a deity if you like] in some way. He liked people, and isn't recorded
as being much of a grump. What are your spiritual beliefs, btw?

On Sep 19, 8:26 pm, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> Did anyone thought already of LifeRL with realistic professions and
> goals? I failed again
> in secondary goal "get girl". It was doomed from the beginning,
> because she had a boyfriend

It appears our saintly Krice has been going after someone else's
woman...

edexter

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 7:46:38 AM10/4/07
to
On Oct 1, 5:52 am, Mario Donick <mario.don...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Well ...
>
> As you might have noticed, neither "Roguelike. The magazine." nor my
> RL "LambdaRogue" have made progress during the last half year. The
> so-called "Real Life" was more important and more exciting than hanging out
> in newsgroups, programming useless games or writing articles in bad
> english.
>
> However, some of the existing RTM articles could be still interesting, so if
> anybody wants to copy them into RogueBasin or on some other website (of
> course mentioning my name), he/she can do it (and should do it within the
> next two weeks, because RTM will go off then, to not confuse anybody
> anymore).
>
> Concerning my RL: Within the next days I will play the latest version of
> LambdaRogue and check if it is still fun to me, after having ignored it
> over months. If I enjoy playing it, I will continue to develop it, when
> autumn and winter have arrived ...
>
> so long,
> Mario
>
> --
> LambdaRogue:http://donick.net/lambdarogue.html

I could see taking over the magazine as being worth while if other
people were intrested in contributing to it... Otherwise I may do
some links to my material on rogue-basin...

Carlos Gómez Rodríguez (Al-Khwarizmi)

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 9:46:03 AM10/4/07
to
On Oct 4, 8:58 am, Ray Dillinger <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the Catholics, with their idea that great
> sufferings are visited upon the virtuous (and a lot of them
> who believe, although the church doesn't teach it, that
> suffering itself is virtuous) have it wrong.
>
> Bear

I am not religious, but I don't think the Catholic faith contains the
idea that virtue brings suffering. Of course the central point of all
Christianity is the sufferings of Christ in the cross, but the main
point is not the suffering in itself but why he did it. Catholics
admire martyrs because they suffered for a reason, but this doesn't
mean that one must go in search for suffering. It's just that one
should act by his/her principles (in this case, Christian principles)
and if this happens to bring suffering, one should accept it.

If we go back to the Gospels, Christ teaches detachment from material
things, which are one of the causes of suffering for many people. He
doesn't teach detachment from people, so I guess the important thing
in the original Christian faith is: suffer only for things that are
worth it. Not being religious, I find this a good idea.


Martin Read

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 2:43:56 PM10/4/07
to
Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
>..which is important in buddhism. These guys escape from
>reality and that's it. They don't need to be spiritual
>at all, because they never have to face the reality and
>spiritual troubles it always has.

Try saying that to a Burmese monk.
--
\_\/_/ you take a mortal man and put him in control
\ / and watch him become a god watch people's heads roll
\/ --- Megadeth, "Symphony of Destruction"

Ray Dillinger

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 3:31:28 PM10/4/07
to
Carlos Gómez Rodríguez (Al-Khwarizmi) wrote:

> I am not religious, but I don't think the Catholic faith contains the
> idea that virtue brings suffering.

Y'know, I've been in a catholic church or two, and aside from
the image of the guy being tortured by being nailed to a cross
(which hadda hurt), there were stained-glass windows celebrating
many other examples of the most horrible tortures anybody could
think of -- all these virtuous saint figures were being thrown
into fires, having their intestines wrapped around sticks, etc.
It's a very strong example. You can't have iconography like that
and claim you're not teaching that virtuous people must often
suffer.

And then there's this other recurring image of a guy actually
ripping his own chest open so you can see his heart. Dude, that's
messed up. It's bad enough when other people are torturing someone
to death and dream up a nightmare like that, but showing someone
doing it to himself? That's true horror, the self-mutilation
of someone truly insane.

And then you get to ritual. "This is my body and blood..."
ritualized cannibalism, anyone?

The iconography, on the whole, is horrifying. Forget your
B-movie set inspired by HP Lovecraft, *this* is what death
cults look like!

Perhaps they don't bother teaching it verbally, but it's very
clear that the building is set up for a death cult, and there
is no way someone who's not blind can fail to see it. Torture,
mutilation, maiming, cannibalism, etc, are just not themes
it's worthwhile to venerate. The fact that most of the people
can see all these things and still don't realize it's a death
cult is maybe even more disturbing than the iconography itself.

Plus, I've had a look through their bible. Lots of bloodthirsty
passages, divine curses on people who are completely innocent,
God acting in the most outrageous manner possible (demanding,
for example, that this one old guy, who had done nothing wrong,
kill his own son?!), the doctrine of original sin, the doctrine
of an afterlife, a "savior" who invented the concept of hell,
and many examples of a diety aiding, or his chosen people
committing, genocide. The diety that book describes is vile,
vindictive, and evil, his own assertions to the contrary. There's
a passage where an old man turns his own daughter out to be
raped by a crowd of strangers, in order to keep two complete
strangers (grown men able to defend themselves, I might add)
safe in his home. And this is supposed to be the good guy?!

Sorry, just can't get behind that. Can't get behind any value
system which justifies that. Can't trust anyone who thinks that
kind of act is "good," in any wise. Memetically speaking, it's
a setup for the most horrible abuses imaginable, and the more I
did read of it the more dangerous I realized christianity actually
is.


Bear

Gamer_2k4

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 5:38:45 PM10/4/07
to
I'm not Catholic, so I can't really respond to the first part.
However, I'll try to clear up some things concerning the Bible.

On Oct 4, 2:31 pm, Ray Dillinger <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
> God acting in the most outrageous manner possible (demanding,
> for example, that this one old guy, who had done nothing wrong,
> kill his own son?!)

Think about the outcomes:
1) Abraham says yes, God stops him, no one dies.
2) Abraham says no, no one dies.

This was a test of Abraham's faith in God. That's why the demand was
so outrageous; no one would do it unless they truly believed that it
was for the best.

> the doctrine of original sin, the doctrine
> of an afterlife, a "savior" who invented the concept of hell,
> and many examples of a diety aiding, or his chosen people
> committing, genocide. The diety that book describes is vile,
> vindictive, and evil, his own assertions to the contrary.

You think that Jesus invented hell? You must have skipped over a few
passages in the Old Testament.

As for the killing, it's perfectly fine for God to kill his own
creation. The reason that killing is wrong is because by doing so,
we're choosing how long someone gets to live, effectively acting as
God. Think about it this way. You've written a program, but it's not
working the way you wanted it to. So you delete it and start over.
You would have no problem with that, right? Now consider a similar
case. The program still doesn't work, but someone else decides to
delete it. You'd be mad at them, correct? No one has the right to
destroy someone else's creation, but the creator can do whatever he or
she wants with it.

Or, for another example, consider this. When you were a child, your
parents told you not to use the matches, right? But they used them all
of the time. Are your parents evil for choosing not to follow the
rules they set? Or, is it possible that different people have
different rules to follow, and God forbidding us to do something
doesn't mean that he must refrain from doing it himself?

One last note about all of this. You say that God is vile,
vindictive, and evil, I assume because of the aforementioned killing.
But who are you to define God's character? I'll use the parent-child
analogy again. If a child is told not to play in the street, he
doesn't understand it. To the child, it would seem like the parent is
unnecessarily limited his fun. However, The parent knows more than
the child, and although the child can't make sense of the parent's
actions, the child is by no means qualified to judge those actions.

> There's
> a passage where an old man turns his own daughter out to be
> raped by a crowd of strangers, in order to keep two complete
> strangers (grown men able to defend themselves, I might add)
> safe in his home. And this is supposed to be the good guy?!

Let's say that you were with a buddy of yours and a CROWD (note just
one or two people, but a crowd) wanted to sodomize the two of you.
How well are you going to be able to defend yourself against even five
people, or more? The old man (Lot I believe) was trying to go for the
lesser of two evils: heterosexual sex instead of homosexual sex.

--
Gamer_2k4

Ray Dillinger

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 9:31:22 PM10/4/07
to
Gamer_2k4 wrote:

<lots of dumb stuff snipped>

> Let's say that you were with a buddy of yours and a CROWD (note just
> one or two people, but a crowd) wanted to sodomize the two of you.
> How well are you going to be able to defend yourself against even five
> people, or more? The old man (Lot I believe) was trying to go for the
> lesser of two evils: heterosexual sex instead of homosexual sex.

And in what twisted universe is sex, of any kind, evil?

The pinnacle of humanity's creative power, the moment when we are
priveleged with the godlike power of creating life itself, the
moment when we experientially touch the joy of the divine, the
act that connects us most deeply with our partners and with past
and future generations.... is evil? Nope, sorry, not buying it.

*RAPE* is evil. You take something holy and you reduce it to the
level of coercion, that's horrible. *SEX* is a holy gift from God.

Bear

Gamer_2k4

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 11:14:41 PM10/4/07
to
On Oct 4, 8:31 pm, Ray Dillinger <b...@sonic.net> wrote:

> Gamer_2k4 wrote:
> > Let's say that you were with a buddy of yours and a CROWD (note just
> > one or two people, but a crowd) wanted to sodomize the two of you.
> > How well are you going to be able to defend yourself against even five
> > people, or more? The old man (Lot I believe) was trying to go for the
> > lesser of two evils: heterosexual sex instead of homosexual sex.
>
> And in what twisted universe is sex, of any kind, evil?

The one where a crowd of people come breaking down your door to do it
against your wishes. See below.

Ray Dillinger

unread,
Oct 4, 2007, 11:29:30 PM10/4/07
to
Gamer_2k4 wrote:

>>And in what twisted universe is sex, of any kind, evil?
>
>
> The one where a crowd of people come breaking down your door to do it
> against your wishes. See below.

Sorry. You missed my point. Denigrating sex (the fundamental
act of creating and continuing _life_), which is common in
mainstream christianity, is ONLY reasonable in a cosmology
that celebrates _death_.

But anyway: This is nothing to do with Roguelike development,
unless someone is interested in including death cults in their
game and needs to think through the ideas about what a death
cult looks like and how death-cultists behave.

For now, just put me down as having moral values that celebrate
love and life as good things, and finding them incompatible with
(nay, diametrically opposed to) christianity, and I will let
this discussion drop.

Bear


Gerry Quinn

unread,
Oct 5, 2007, 4:23:07 PM10/5/07
to
In article <47053e4a$0$79868$742e...@news.sonic.net>, be...@sonic.net
says...

> Carlos Gómez Rodríguez (Al-Khwarizmi) wrote:
>
> > I am not religious, but I don't think the Catholic faith contains the
> > idea that virtue brings suffering.
>
> Y'know, I've been in a catholic church or two, and aside from
> the image of the guy being tortured by being nailed to a cross
> (which hadda hurt), there were stained-glass windows celebrating
> many other examples of the most horrible tortures anybody could
> think of -- all these virtuous saint figures were being thrown
> into fires, having their intestines wrapped around sticks, etc.
> It's a very strong example. You can't have iconography like that
> and claim you're not teaching that virtuous people must often
> suffer.

Are you arguing that virtue *doesn't* often require suffering, even if
less is likely to be demanded of ordinary individuals than was demanded
of (or offered by) the iconic figures?

> And then there's this other recurring image of a guy actually
> ripping his own chest open so you can see his heart. Dude, that's
> messed up. It's bad enough when other people are torturing someone
> to death and dream up a nightmare like that, but showing someone
> doing it to himself? That's true horror, the self-mutilation
> of someone truly insane.

I think you're misinterpreting the popular devotion to the 'Sacred
Heart of Jesus'. There's no implication of manga-style tropes such as
guys ripping open their chests. Most of the images are highly
symbolic, and as I understand it the only fleshly element of it comes
from the story of Jesus's side being pierced by a lance while he hung
on the Cross, to prove he was dead, heart monitors not being readily
available in those times.

> And then you get to ritual. "This is my body and blood..."
> ritualized cannibalism, anyone?

Heh, take it to alt.atheism, and you'll probably raise a fine chorus of
'ayes'. But it is a strange argument coming from someone in a society
that regularly employs 'hi-tech' cannibalism such as blood transfusions
and organ transplants, and sometimes even forces individuals such as
Jehovah's Witnesses or their children to engage in these acts. Let's
not even mention processing human embryos to make cells that supposedly
can be used to make extend the lives or make temporarily ambulant the
bodies of moribund individuals who had the advantage of being born
first! If you are looking for instances of cannibalism in the modern
world, the Church is not the first place to investigate...

> The iconography, on the whole, is horrifying. Forget your
> B-movie set inspired by HP Lovecraft, *this* is what death
> cults look like!

I don't see it as particularly horrifying, though I suppose that could
come in part because I'm used to it. Still, I think far more grotesque
iconography is found in modern literary and graphical artforms. Even
roguelikes often involve a human character who is repeatedly sliced
with swords or has limbs cut off, but somehow struggles on; who raises
corpses from the dead or summons demons, who eats corpses, who kills
everything that crosses his path. Now *that's* a death cult. In
popular roguelikes he often chooses to worship a god of pure
destruction, too, whereas even according to your lights the Christian
godhead is not wholly devoted to it.



> Perhaps they don't bother teaching it verbally, but it's very
> clear that the building is set up for a death cult, and there
> is no way someone who's not blind can fail to see it. Torture,
> mutilation, maiming, cannibalism, etc, are just not themes
> it's worthwhile to venerate. The fact that most of the people
> can see all these things and still don't realize it's a death
> cult is maybe even more disturbing than the iconography itself.

Or maybe it just could be that what *you* see is not the be-all and
end-all of what should be seen?



> Plus, I've had a look through their bible. Lots of bloodthirsty
> passages, divine curses on people who are completely innocent,
> God acting in the most outrageous manner possible (demanding,
> for example, that this one old guy, who had done nothing wrong,
> kill his own son?!), the doctrine of original sin, the doctrine
> of an afterlife, a "savior" who invented the concept of hell,
> and many examples of a diety aiding, or his chosen people
> committing, genocide. The diety that book describes is vile,
> vindictive, and evil, his own assertions to the contrary. There's
> a passage where an old man turns his own daughter out to be
> raped by a crowd of strangers, in order to keep two complete
> strangers (grown men able to defend themselves, I might add)
> safe in his home. And this is supposed to be the good guy?!

You're mostly looking at the Old Testament, I think; the message in the
New Testament, which is the basis for Christianity, is considerably
mellowed. I'm not sure what objections you have to concepts like
original sin or the afterlife. Catholics are actually not especially
encouraged to study the Bible, perhaps because of the great possibility
for creative misinterpretation.

"6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I
pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your
eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the
shadow of my roof."

Maybe Lot knew that his daughters were in no danger from the men of
Sodom...

> Sorry, just can't get behind that. Can't get behind any value
> system which justifies that. Can't trust anyone who thinks that
> kind of act is "good," in any wise. Memetically speaking, it's
> a setup for the most horrible abuses imaginable, and the more I
> did read of it the more dangerous I realized christianity actually
> is.

Remember, this is a story told long after the alleged events, and the
characters are iconic; would you really consider the behaviour of a
white-hatted 'goodie' in a Western something to be emulated, or is it a
stylised depiction of certain virtues in shades of black and white.

- Gerry Quinn

Gerry Quinn

unread,
Oct 5, 2007, 4:23:27 PM10/5/07
to
In article <4705ae56$0$79880$742e...@news.sonic.net>, be...@sonic.net
says...

> Gamer_2k4 wrote:
>
> >>And in what twisted universe is sex, of any kind, evil?
> >
> >
> > The one where a crowd of people come breaking down your door to do it
> > against your wishes. See below.
>
> Sorry. You missed my point. Denigrating sex (the fundamental
> act of creating and continuing _life_), which is common in
> mainstream christianity, is ONLY reasonable in a cosmology
> that celebrates _death_.

There may be tendencies towards denigrating sex, but there is also a
sacrament celebrating it.

> But anyway: This is nothing to do with Roguelike development,
> unless someone is interested in including death cults in their
> game and needs to think through the ideas about what a death
> cult looks like and how death-cultists behave.

Asd I pointed out before, Vehumet hardly needs lessons in death-cultism
from the Christian god.

> For now, just put me down as having moral values that celebrate
> love and life as good things, and finding them incompatible with
> (nay, diametrically opposed to) christianity, and I will let
> this discussion drop.

Your view of Christianity is too glib; if you scrutinised other
movements with such a jaundiced eye you might well find much worse...

- Gerry Quinn

Derek Ray

unread,
Oct 6, 2007, 9:55:39 AM10/6/07
to
On 2007-10-05, Gerry Quinn <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote:
> In article <47053e4a$0$79868$742e...@news.sonic.net>, be...@sonic.net
>> And then you get to ritual. "This is my body and blood..."
>> ritualized cannibalism, anyone?
>
> Heh, take it to alt.atheism, and you'll probably raise a fine chorus of
> 'ayes'. But it is a strange argument coming from someone in a society
> that regularly employs 'hi-tech' cannibalism such as blood transfusions
> and organ transplants, and sometimes even forces individuals such as
> Jehovah's Witnesses or their children to engage in these acts. Let's
> not even mention processing human embryos to make cells that supposedly
> can be used to make extend the lives or make temporarily ambulant the
> bodies of moribund individuals who had the advantage of being born

At the risk of further perpetuating this hideous abomination of an
off-topic guaranteed-flamewar-generating topic:

There's a big difference between doing a thing and venerating it.

> Or maybe it just could be that what *you* see is not the be-all and
> end-all of what should be seen?

"What should be seen" is properly read as "what the advocates intend to
be seen." That said, rather than focusing on the details to make this
argument, perhaps one should focus on the overall theme:

"It's all flowers and eternal happiness _after_ you die."

...Meaning, of course, that the entire point of life is to die with the
most good deeds, and thus make it to the Grand Prize. An ideal life
(from the owner's perspective!) in some variants of Christianity is to be
born, be baptized, and be run over by a truck while still young, before
you really have figured out how to sin properly. Thus, you enter the
Kingdom of Heaven, having spent as little time as possible in the
intermediate stages where you can screw it up and go to Hell.

It is a fact that we will all die, but the point of life (at least,
of mine!) is not _solely_ to die, and this is possibly what the OP
finds disturbing.

--
Derek

Changelog: http://nethack.nineball.org
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.nineball.org
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack

Gerry Quinn

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:46:34 AM10/7/07
to
In article <slrnfgf4ur...@still.just.a.spamtrap.org>,
de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org says...

> On 2007-10-05, Gerry Quinn <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote:
> > In article <47053e4a$0$79868$742e...@news.sonic.net>, be...@sonic.net
> >> And then you get to ritual. "This is my body and blood..."
> >> ritualized cannibalism, anyone?
> >
> > Heh, take it to alt.atheism, and you'll probably raise a fine chorus of
> > 'ayes'. But it is a strange argument coming from someone in a society
> > that regularly employs 'hi-tech' cannibalism such as blood transfusions
> > and organ transplants, and sometimes even forces individuals such as
> > Jehovah's Witnesses or their children to engage in these acts. Let's
> > not even mention processing human embryos to make cells that supposedly
> > can be used to make extend the lives or make temporarily ambulant the
> > bodies of moribund individuals who had the advantage of being born
>
> At the risk of further perpetuating this hideous abomination of an
> off-topic guaranteed-flamewar-generating topic:
>
> There's a big difference between doing a thing and venerating it.

There's not such a big difference between doing a thing and *approving*
of it, and venerating it. Insofar as the sacrament of the Eucharist is
venerated, it is venerated for what it means to the participants, not
in the name of 'ritual cannibalism'; the very same is true of hi-tech
cannibalistic technologies.

And sometimes one reads arguments that verge on hagiography - though
the the tribulations of the stem-cell researcher who was portrayed to
similar to a victim of the Nazis because he had to cross the Atlantic
to get a bigger research grant didn't strike me as entirely comparable
to the woes of St. Sebastian et al.

> > Or maybe it just could be that what *you* see is not the be-all and
> > end-all of what should be seen?
>
> "What should be seen" is properly read as "what the advocates intend to
> be seen."

The point is, the OP's visits to a Catholic church, and scans through
the bloodier bits of the Bible, don't at all represent what Christians
in general think.

> That said, rather than focusing on the details to make this
> argument, perhaps one should focus on the overall theme:
>
> "It's all flowers and eternal happiness _after_ you die."
>
> ...Meaning, of course, that the entire point of life is to die with the
> most good deeds, and thus make it to the Grand Prize.

Actually, it varies considerably between denominations whether good
deeds or faith are more important. I will concede the point that
Christianity encourages individuals to see their lives as part of a
wider pattern, rather than a singular and meaningless journey to
extinction. Many other philosophies (religious or otherwise) do this
too, of course...

> An ideal life
> (from the owner's perspective!) in some variants of Christianity is to be
> born, be baptized, and be run over by a truck while still young, before
> you really have figured out how to sin properly. Thus, you enter the
> Kingdom of Heaven, having spent as little time as possible in the
> intermediate stages where you can screw it up and go to Hell.

But you don't see icons of babies hit by trucks in Catholic churches,
do you? The saints depicted were active participants in the events
portrayed.

> It is a fact that we will all die, but the point of life (at least,
> of mine!) is not _solely_ to die, and this is possibly what the OP
> finds disturbing.

But Christianity also does not assert that the point of life is to die.

- Gerry Quinn

Ray Dillinger

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 11:56:41 AM10/7/07
to

> But Christianity also does not assert that the point of life is to die.

Christianity makes no sense without Death. Death is an implicit
and necessary part of its doctrines.

Anyway: No more replies here, please, it's off-topic to this
group. I keep setting the followup-to appropriately, and people
keep ignoring it. Is it just broken newsreaders that don't honor
followup-to anymore, or has this been manually overridden each
time?


Bear

Martin Read

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 2:30:57 PM10/7/07
to
Ray Dillinger <be...@sonic.net> wrote:
>I keep setting the followup-to appropriately, and people
>keep ignoring it. Is it just broken newsreaders that don't honor
>followup-to anymore, or has this been manually overridden each
>time?

Perhaps people do not want to post to alt.flame.

I know I don't, for the simple reason that I don't *read* alt.flame and
generally do not wish to post to newsgroups I don't read.

Gerry Quinn

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 3:03:20 PM10/7/07
to
In article <47090080$0$79891$742e...@news.sonic.net>, be...@sonic.net
says...

>
> > But Christianity also does not assert that the point of life is to die.
>
> Christianity makes no sense without Death. Death is an implicit
> and necessary part of its doctrines.

Your point being? Since death exists, it is hardly strange that a
philosophical system will take it seriously.

> Anyway: No more replies here, please, it's off-topic to this
> group. I keep setting the followup-to appropriately, and people
> keep ignoring it. Is it just broken newsreaders that don't honor
> followup-to anymore, or has this been manually overridden each
> time?

I read the post in rec.games.roguelike.development, and therefore I
followed up there. If you felt the matter was more suited to
alt.flame, or perhaps even alt.dev.null, you should have posted there
in the first place...

- Gerry Quinn

Gamer_2k4

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 5:19:51 PM10/7/07
to
On Oct 7, 10:56 am, Ray Dillinger <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Anyway: No more replies here, please, it's off-topic to this
> group. I keep setting the followup-to appropriately, and people
> keep ignoring it. Is it just broken newsreaders that don't honor
> followup-to anymore, or has this been manually overridden each
> time?

Manually overridden, because I don't like the idea of someone saying,
"Here's my opinion. If you don't like it, go somewhere else."

--
Gamer_2k4

Simon Richard Clarkstone

unread,
Oct 19, 2007, 7:28:50 PM10/19/07
to
"Krice" <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote in message
news:1191480193....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> I don't like.. people. In general. Some are ok.
> I don't like this world, it's not very suitable for
> my saint-like high spiritual level.

You might be some kind of Otherkin.
{beat}
Troll-kin most likely. :-)

--
Simon Richard Clarkstone:
s?m?n_cl?rkst?n?@yahoo.co.uk/s?m?n.cl?rkst?n?@hotmail.com
"August 9 - I just made my signature file. Its only 6 pages long.
I will have to work on it some more." -- _Diary of an AOL User_


OSS

unread,
Oct 20, 2007, 4:28:28 AM10/20/07
to
On Oct 2, 12:08 pm, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:

> Someone has to be a loser. It seems that we all can't win.
> For some people earth can be hell and for others it's heaven.
> Heaven and hell are within us.

I had the same views about a year ago. Then I married a girl I love
and took up two jobs. And guess what - I like it now! ;)
In my country you have to struggle to get even as lousy a job as
a teacher's one, because the unemployment rate is horrific. And when
you've
got no money for food, it's difficult to focus on your misery :).
And one of my biggest dreams now (except of a private enterprise ;))
is a set of
Games Workshop miniatures that I can't buy for three reasons , the
first one being
that GW never heard of my country (Ukraine), the second - that it
costs twice
my monthly salary, and the third - that I have to make the life of my
better half
comfortable at least a bit.
Also, I'm a devoted Orthodox christian, and that makes my life easier,
too.

Stop complaining, Krice. I like my life (although I'd like to make
some
improvements, too ;)). You've got chances - the thing we lack here in
Ukraine.
But still we struggle - and so should you.I wish you the best of luck.

Krice

unread,
Oct 20, 2007, 7:17:32 AM10/20/07
to
On 20 loka, 11:28, OSS <fille...@inbox.ru> wrote:
> Then I married a girl I love
> and took up two jobs. And guess what - I like it now! ;)

Not shitting me?

> the first one being
> that GW never heard of my country (Ukraine)

What are they, morons? Everyone knows Ukraine.

> Also, I'm a devoted Orthodox christian, and that makes my life
> easier, too.

I fail to see how that makes life easier. Well.. maybe
orthodox girls are so desperate to get sex that they
marry anyone available... that's the only good thing
about religion. The bad thing is that they don't marry
us pagans.

> You've got chances - the thing we lack here in Ukraine.

Unemployment is a problem in Finland, too.
I'm having difficulties to find a job (well, actually
I have a job but it sucks), but real problem is finding
a woman. Finnish women are picky and most of them are ugly.
It's like living in a dwarf kingdom where it's hard to
tell who is male and who is female. But ukrainian women..
I'd like to have one! They are so beautiful!

OSS

unread,
Oct 20, 2007, 8:16:31 AM10/20/07
to
On Oct 20, 2:17 pm, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:

> > Also, I'm a devoted Orthodox christian, and that makes my life
> > easier, too.
> I fail to see how that makes life easier. Well.. maybe
> orthodox girls are so desperate to get sex that they
> marry anyone available... that's the only good thing
> about religion. The bad thing is that they don't marry
> us pagans.

They actually do.

You seem to have a somehow distorted perception of orthodoxy.
We actually never consider the religion when we decide to
marry or smth (have sex ;)).

> Finnish women are picky and most of them are ugly.
> It's like living in a dwarf kingdom where it's hard to
> tell who is male and who is female. But ukrainian women..
> I'd like to have one! They are so beautiful!

Well, why not come to Kiev for a couple of weeks and try
to get acquainted with a girl. I can tell you that they fall
for foreigners quite easily.That would also help to brighten up
your mood, as Kiev is actually quite a place to see. Not like
Prague or Budapest, but quite nice still.

Gamer_2k4

unread,
Oct 20, 2007, 6:54:51 PM10/20/07
to

Ooh, Krice is getting hooked up! I have a feeling the group will be
much more peaceful in the near future. ;)

--
Gamer_2k4

R. Dan Henry

unread,
Oct 20, 2007, 9:33:57 PM10/20/07
to
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 04:17:32 -0700, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fi> wrote:

>I fail to see how that makes life easier. Well.. maybe
>orthodox girls are so desperate to get sex that they
>marry anyone available... that's the only good thing
>about religion. The bad thing is that they don't marry
>us pagans.

Paganism is a religion, too. So what are you really, non-religious or
pagan?

Also, are you a saintly uber-programmer with a genius for game design or
a useless loser? Your mood swings can get a bit confusing. At least Neo
maintains a nice constant delusion of grandeur.

>Finnish women are picky and most of them are ugly.

Gee, your attitude might be part of your problem. Seems it isn't just
the women being picky.

--
R. Dan Henry = danh...@inreach.com
If you wish to put anything I post on your website,
please be polite enough to ask first.

Krice

unread,
Oct 21, 2007, 3:49:20 AM10/21/07
to
On 21 loka, 04:33, R. Dan Henry <danhe...@inreach.com> wrote:
> Paganism is a religion, too.

Who is their god?

> Also, are you a saintly uber-programmer with a genius for
> game design or a useless loser?

Isn't that the same thing?

> >Finnish women are picky and most of them are ugly.
> Gee, your attitude might be part of your problem.

I wish it was an attitude...

0 new messages