7DRL Challenge 2009: Date is Chosen!
Jeff Lait
A Seven Day Roguelike is a roguelike created in seven days. This means
the author stopped writing code one hundred and sixty eight hours
after they started writing code.
--------------
A Seven Day Roguelike (7DRL) can be written at any time. However, a
general agreement was reached that it would be fun to schedule a
specific week for a challenge. This allows the various authors to know
that others are also desperately tracking down a bad pointer reference
on the 167th hour.
The week has been chosen for the Fifth Annual 7DRL Challenge!
After an unscientific straw poll, the following scientific-looking
graph was generated:
Feb 21 - Mar 1: ###########
Feb 28 - Mar 8: #######
Mar 7 - Mar 15: ##################
A discursive analysis of this shows that the use of the # sign makes
for an aesthetically pleasing method for representing bar graphs.
The week for the Seven Day Roguelike Challenge has been chosen!
Within the week of March 7th to March 15th, you are hereby challenged
to write a roguelike in 168 hours!
To participate, follow these simple steps:
1) Any time on March 7th or March 8th (as measured in your time zone),
post to rec.games.roguelike.development that you have started work on
your Seven Day Roguelike.
2) Write a roguelike.
3) After 168 hours, if you have completed a playable roguelike, post
your success to rec.games.roguelike.announce! If not, post your lack
of results to rec.games.roguelike.development, where we will all
commiserate and agree that given a few scant more hours, it could have
been great.
Good Luck!
I will try to post a reminder message the Wednesday before the
challenge.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
pende...@gmail.com
Windows, or are submissions written for Macs also welcome?
I keep my sourcecode machine-independent, but I don't have a PC at
home so I can't compile PC binaries or use PC interface API's. My
brother and I hacked together our own roguelike front-end for getting
keystrokes and displaying colored characters.
Ido Yehieli
You can cross compile from mac to linux and maybe even linux. You can
use a VM or some sort of mac software whose name I don't remember to
run/emulate windows on your mac. Not to mention that macs these days
are basically PCs and you cam install windows/linux and dual/triple
boot them.
At any rate, releasing the source will be greatly appreciated :)
-Ido.
konijn_
> You can cross compile from mac to linux and maybe even linux. You can
> use a VM or some sort of mac software whose name I don't remember to
> run/emulate windows on your mac. Not to mention that macs these days
> are basically PCs and you cam install windows/linux and dual/triple
> boot them.
I cross compile Hellband from mac to windows. It is possible.
>
> At any rate, releasing the source will be greatly appreciated :)
Yes.
>
> -Ido.
pende...@gmail.com
> You can cross compile from mac to linux and maybe even linux. You can
> use a VM or some sort of mac software whose name I don't remember to
> run/emulate windows on your mac. Not to mention that macs these days
> are basically PCs and you cam install windows/linux and dual/triple
> boot them.
Maybe YOU can do these things, but I am not nearly proficient
enough :)
Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say "I am not willing to
gain the skills and procure the software necessary to compile PC
binaries or use PC interface API's." :)
> At any rate, releasing the source will be greatly appreciated :)
Always!
corremn
> Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say "I am not willing to
> gain the skills and procure the software necessary to compile PC
> binaries or use PC interface API's." :)
>
> > At any rate, releasing the source will be greatly appreciated :)
>
> Always!
Any platform is welcome, you just limit your playing group. Just
concentrate of getting a working game, I am sure there are plenty of
mac users out there. I played moria for 6 years on a mac. Release the
source to the world, ask for help and after the compo someone may help
you.
corremn
>
> Within the week of March 7th to March 15th, you are hereby challenged
> to write a roguelike in 168 hours!
Because I have a history of bending the rules, I will ask this
question.
Is level design, (e.g. using the new Ascii Paint program to create
text levels), a fair thing to do before starting date? Considering
that it is content I am guessing not? Or is it just coding that
should really be done.
And yes I know variations of this question are asked every year and I
read the answers every year.
Ido Yehieli
>
> Is level design, (e.g. using the new Ascii Paint program to create
> text levels), a fair thing to do before starting date? Considering
> that it is content I am guessing not? Or is it just coding that
> should really be done.
I wouldn't consider it cheating, since a lot of people also start with
their old code/frameworks or just rip code out of their old games to
create a new one.
Remember that the purpose is to produce a game. just tell us in
advance what you start with before the challenge, so it's all out in
the open.
And most importantly - have fun!
-Ido.
Slash
> What is a Seven Day Roguelike?
>
> A Seven Day Roguelike is a roguelike created in seven days. This means
> the author stopped writing code one hundred and sixty eight hours
> after they started writing code.
Great!!!
Also, some people from tigsource have posted ideas here:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=4412.0
> --
> Jeff Lait
> (POWDER:http://www.zincland.com/powder)
--
Slashie
Jeff Lait
> Excellent! Is it expected that source will compile natively in
> Windows, or are submissions written for Macs also welcome?
1) There is no requirement to submit source.
2) There is no official platform.
It is quite acceptable to submit a binary that works only on a C64 as
your challenge entry. Of course, that makes it less likely anyone
will be able to play it...
> I keep my sourcecode machine-independent, but I don't have a PC at
> home so I can't compile PC binaries or use PC interface API's. My
> brother and I hacked together our own roguelike front-end for getting
> keystrokes and displaying colored characters.
It is quite reasonable for your initial 7DRL release to only work on
your favorite platform and to add support for other platforms later.
If you release source, it is even possible that someone else will
provide the other platform support.
Jeff Lait
> On Jan 30, 2:34 am, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Within the week of March 7th to March 15th, you are hereby challenged
> > to write a roguelike in 168 hours!
>
> Because I have a history of bending the rules, I will ask this
> question.
>
> Is level design, (e.g. using the new Ascii Paint program to create
> text levels), a fair thing to do before starting date? Considering
> that it is content I am guessing not? Or is it just coding that
> should really be done.
I'd say level design, as in pen and paper sketching ideas, would
clearly be acceptable. When you start producing finalized levels
ahead of the challenge? I dunno...
Using levels from other projects would seem acceptable, much like
using code from other levels is acceptable. But consider Fatherhood.
Would it be acceptable for me to have built the maps ahead of time?
Well, practically I couldn't, because they had to match the game
mechanics I didn't fully know at the time. And, weakly, I did,
because I started the map by cutting and pasting the village map from
You Only Live Once.
The same question arises for artwork. Can one build a tileset for a
7DRL prior to the 7DRL? I would think not, but I'd have nothing to
object to using a tileset you happened to have built before in your
7DRL...
If you would make these maps even if you weren't writing the 7DRL,
then they are acceptable. Ie, if you are playing around with
AsciiPaint and create a bunch of maps, you can then say, Hey, I'll
swipe these for my 7DRL. But if you have a work-order of maps that
are needed for your 7DRL and you start cranking them out prior to the
challenge start, you are bending the rules.
keith
Slash
> On Jan 29, 6:04 pm, corremn <corr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 30, 2:34 am, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you would make these maps even if you weren't writing the 7DRL,
> then they are acceptable. Ie, if you are playing around with
> AsciiPaint and create a bunch of maps, you can then say, Hey, I'll
> swipe these for my 7DRL. But if you have a work-order of maps that
> are needed for your 7DRL and you start cranking them out prior to the
> challenge start, you are bending the rules.
I say, just release something before the end of the 7DRL deadline, all
the rest is honor or shame :)
> --
> Jeff Lait
> (POWDER:http://www.zincland.com/powder)
--
Slash
Slash
Ok, ok.
I feel the need take these words back, my reply was really misleading.
So, this is what I actually think in short words: The 7DRL challenge
has degenerated a bit, partly because too much freedom has been given.
The spirit of the challenge has changed, the development of the games
is starting weeks before.
I think part of this happening has been caused by the need of having
better products and filling them with worthy content, which has
transformed the allowed "planning" phase into a detailed "data entry"
or "tool making" phase in which everything goes; now, it is clear that
7DRL challenge is not about who codes faster, but rather who can start
and end a roguelike with a delimited scope in the faster and better
way (IMO).
So, what tops my head now?
1. Maybe we need a 1MRL challenge (1 Month Roguelike Challenge), where
projects with higher scope and quality (and quantity) of content could
be produced.
2. For the 7DRL challenge, the guideline for the planning phase
(previous to the challenge timeframe) would be something like "doing
whatever planning and dreaming, as long as you are not using computer
aided tools". I know it may sound rough and needlessly restrictive,
but what I want to disallow is the use of computer tools to compile a
real ammount of content, which you can then use for your game.
In the end, I think developing a game is not just about coding;
content makes up for great part of it.
(/me waits for a called wave of unpopularity :P)
>
> > --
> > Jeff Lait
> > (POWDER:http://www.zincland.com/powder)
>
--
Slash
coppro
> 2. For the 7DRL challenge, the guideline for the planning phase
> (previous to the challenge timeframe) would be something like "doing
> whatever planning and dreaming, as long as you are not using computer
> aided tools". I know it may sound rough and needlessly restrictive,
> but what I want to disallow is the use of computer tools to compile a
> real ammount of content, which you can then use for your game.
>
> In the end, I think developing a game is not just about coding;
> content makes up for great part of it.
I definitely think this would be a good idea. It would make me more
interested in actually writing a 7DRL.
coppro
Gamer_2k4
> I think part of this happening has been caused by the need of having
> better products and filling them with worthy content, which has
> transformed the allowed "planning" phase into a detailed "data entry"
> or "tool making" phase in which everything goes; now, it is clear that
> 7DRL challenge is not about who codes faster, but rather who can start
> and end a roguelike with a delimited scope in the faster and better
> way (IMO).
It never should have been about who can code faster in the first
place. Sure, some people plan before the actual week (I'm definitely
guilty, and you all will see why once my game is released), but maybe
it's because they simply won't have time to do design during the
competition week, or even that they have good ideas that they don't
want to lose. Another thing: what's wrong with a desire for worthy
content? Is that some sort of admission that 7DRLs are going to be
lousy? The point of the 7DRL challenge is to produce fun, playable,
complete games; as long as that's accomplished, what's wrong with a
few out-of-competition design documents?
> 1. Maybe we need a 1MRL challenge (1 Month Roguelike Challenge), where
> projects with higher scope and quality (and quantity) of content could
> be produced.
I don't like this idea. It's too easy to lose focus, too easy to have
too large a scope, and generally won't do what the 7DRL challenge is
intended to (that is, get developers to release playable games).
> 2. For the 7DRL challenge, the guideline for the planning phase
> (previous to the challenge timeframe) would be something like "doing
> whatever planning and dreaming, as long as you are not using computer
> aided tools". I know it may sound rough and needlessly restrictive,
> but what I want to disallow is the use of computer tools to compile a
> real ammount of content, which you can then use for your game.
That's a tough call for me. As soon as the challenge is announced
(and maybe before), people are going to be thinking about what their
game is going to be and what will be in it. If you force them to use
inefficient tools, you risk losing a lot of great ideas.
> In the end, I think developing a game is not just about coding;
> content makes up for great part of it.
True, but you need a good engine before you can develop good content.
Restricting the coding to a single week forces the developer to
complete that engine.
--
Gamer_2k4
Darren Grey
> So, this is what I actually think in short words: The 7DRL challenge
> has degenerated a bit, partly because too much freedom has been given.
> The spirit of the challenge has changed, the development of the games
> is starting weeks before.
>
> I think part of this happening has been caused by the need of having
> better products and filling them with worthy content, which has
> transformed the allowed "planning" phase into a detailed "data entry"
> or "tool making" phase in which everything goes; now, it is clear that
> 7DRL challenge is not about who codes faster, but rather who can start
> and end a roguelike with a delimited scope in the faster and better
> way (IMO).
I disagree personally. The "challenge" was invented, as I see it, to
encourage actual games to be released, and the RogueBasin article
places strong emphasis on this. It also restricts people's scope in
games - there are far too many behind-the-scenes projects that are
designing the moon and the stars. The 7drl projects force people to
put their feet back on the ground. And further to this it encourages
a little more creativity and originality through simple games that
stand out more for their theme and special features.
The actual challenge of coding quickly is irrelevant in my eyes, as
long as there are releases. "All the rest is honour and shame" as you
put it before - I agree with that sentiment completely. The
RogueBasin article makes it clear that using pre-existing code is
fine, as is using libraries, or even whole games if you think you can
seriously make something original from it. These games don't get
rated and many of them never get played again unless they're really
special. Much like the 1kbrls they're meant to be experimental and
fun. Too many rules would take away the fun.
> So, what tops my head now?
>
> 1. Maybe we need a 1MRL challenge (1 Month Roguelike Challenge), where
> projects with higher scope and quality (and quantity) of content could
> be produced.
Will lead to vapourware in my opinion. Give people too much room for
scope and quality and they'll return to their dreams of moons and
stars. Very few 1MRLs would actually be released, though many would
be started.
> 2. For the 7DRL challenge, the guideline for the planning phase
> (previous to the challenge timeframe) would be something like "doing
> whatever planning and dreaming, as long as you are not using computer
> aided tools". I know it may sound rough and needlessly restrictive,
> but what I want to disallow is the use of computer tools to compile a
> real ammount of content, which you can then use for your game.
And yet libraries and pre-existing FOV and map generation algorithms
would still be allowed? Seems contradictory. Exactly what are you
trying to prevent anyway? Unfairness? If that's the case then I
think you're taking it too seriously. It's a bit of fun, let's not
get all heavy about it.
This discussion stemmed from someone saying they wanted to play with
map designs in AsciiDraw beforehand. How's this different to doodling
map designs on paper? Or using pre-existing map generators? And like
Jeff said it's quite likely that any design beforehand gets altered
within the seven days to fit around the actual game mechanics (which
are much more important). Overall such work beforehand is unlikely to
save them more than a few minutes.
Personally I'm against restrictive rules, especially in a challenge
where winning is just a matter of completing the race. If people want
to bend the rules to make it more enjoyable for them, then so be it.
The only thing I'd say is that everyone should be honest about
everything pre-existing they've used.
--
Darren Grey - http://gruesomegames.com
"It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone..."
stu
>
> It never should have been about who can code faster in the first
> place. Sure, some people plan before the actual week (I'm definitely
> guilty, and you all will see why once my game is released), but maybe
> it's because they simply won't have time to do design during the
> competition week, or even that they have good ideas that they don't
> want to lose. Another thing: what's wrong with a desire for worthy
> content? Is that some sort of admission that 7DRLs are going to be
> lousy? The point of the 7DRL challenge is to produce fun, playable,
> complete games; as long as that's accomplished, what's wrong with a
> few out-of-competition design documents?
I'm kinda with slash on this side of the fence.
I think its one thing to plug in some existing code (libfov,tcod
whatever), but if you start making maps, well that IS your game
and that seems not to be in the spirit of the thing.
using maps that already existed, again is one thing, but
CREATING content before hand is like some backhanded slap.
> That's a tough call for me. As soon as the challenge is announced
> (and maybe before), people are going to be thinking about what their
> game is going to be and what will be in it. If you force them to use
> inefficient tools, you risk losing a lot of great ideas.
>
> > In the end, I think developing a game is not just about coding;
> > content makes up for great part of it.
>
> True, but you need a good engine before you can develop good content.
> Restricting the coding to a single week forces the developer to
> complete that engine.
a 7drl isn't about an engine, to me thats way out of scope of a 7drl.
if you want to write content for an engine, make your content the
entry
and write it for an existing engine or hworld or something.
Is there a line to be crossed? some people probably see a line,
some a blur and some no line. but I dont think we can turn around
and say all code must be new and force people to write their
own curses drivers or sdl drivers, no one can plan or do this
or do that.
I dont see a difference between the content and the game.
they are not separate entities.
-stu
Jotaf
creation in these contests (in games that have that), I agree that it
would be against the spirit of the contest to create them before. It's
hard to define a line that cannot be crossed, so IMHO the only way to
know what's ok and what's not is to look at previous contests and see
if what authors propose (ie, making levels beforehand) is too
different from previous 7DRL's (in this case, it is).
I wouldn't try to define rules like "no authoring tools allowed", but
rather discuss each case, like we're doing now.
And one of the most important things is that every contestant must
state *explicitly* what he/she is using! There's a difference between
saying "I came up with this on the 2nd day through" and "I had this
part done beforehand". Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it
should be stated.
Jotaf
Jotaf
After thinking about it more I changed my mind. I think it should be
allowed as long as the fact that the levels were (for the most part)
pre-designed is stated explicitly in the 7DRL's description. That
would be enough of an indication that the quality of the levels is due
to them being done without the time pressure, and so this 7DRL can be
compared fairly to others that didn't do the same thing. Too many
rules and it starts draining the fun, so IMO this would be the best
way.
Jotaf
Sherm Pendley
> I will try to post a reminder message the Wednesday before the
> challenge.
I've created an "event" for this on FaceBook:
<http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=50668408385>
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net