Minor annoyance - display unused rest time
Hiedran
used because of disturb?
For example, I rest 100 turns so I avoid the "Looks like any other
level" message because the closest down stairs are 5 spaces away from
where I entered the level. While I'm resting, a single orc shaman
comes into LoS. Now I don't know how long I've rested because I'm
still full and I've got permanent light.
So I rest 100 again, and this time I get notified that I feel the
gauntlets I'm carrying are cursed and I drop them. Again, used less
than the 100 turns AFAICT.
Rest 100 again, and a green centipede comes in. Repeat ad nauseum
until nothing disturbs, because each time I might have rested only 5
turns.
Only a minor annoyance.
pete m
> Is there any way to display the amount of rest time that didn't get
> used because of disturb?
>
> For example, I rest 100 turns so I avoid the "Looks like any other
> level" message because the closest down stairs are 5 spaces away from
> where I entered the level. While I'm resting, a single orc shaman
> comes into LoS. Now I don't know how long I've rested because I'm
> still full and I've got permanent light.
>
> until nothing disturbs, because each time I might have rested only 5
> turns.
>
> Only a minor annoyance.
I think you are missing a point here--those 100 turns are intended to
make stair-scumming annoying. What you are asking is to make resting
a fixed number of turns easier just to ... make stair scumming easier.
Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> Is there any way to display the amount of rest time that didn't get
> used because of disturb?
Indirectly: explicitly note the time-tick count (available from current score
or, in V3.0.9, the main character status panel) before resting, then check again
after resting.
Normal speed turns may be calculated directly from the time-tick count: divide
by 10.
Note that an uninterrupted rest uses one more player turn than the number of
turns rested. Also note that going up/down stairs uses one player turn,
although this may not be of much use when trying to vivify the largely useless
level feelings.
> For example, I rest 100 turns so I avoid the "Looks like any other
> level" message because the closest down stairs are 5 spaces away from
> where I entered the level. While I'm resting, a single orc shaman
> comes into LoS. Now I don't know how long I've rested because I'm
> still full and I've got permanent light.
>
> So I rest 100 again, and this time I get notified that I feel the
> gauntlets I'm carrying are cursed and I drop them. Again, used less
> than the 100 turns AFAICT.
>
> Rest 100 again, and a green centipede comes in. Repeat ad nauseum
> until nothing disturbs, because each time I might have rested only 5
> turns.
>
> Only a minor annoyance.
Intentional minor annoyance, yes.
Matthew Collett
<59c0c69a-c33b-4d1e...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
pete m <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The OP's complaint is that those 100 turns don't just make scumming
annoying, but also interfere with fast diving ("the closest down
stairs").
What irritates me even more is when I recall to town, do an efficient
unload of loot and restock of consumables, and then recall down to be
greeted by the dreaded "Looks like any other level", just because I
didn't spend enough time _in_the_town_ :(. IIRC, at least one variant
(O?) has fixed this so that it is the time spent on the previous dungeon
level that counts instead.
Best wishes,
Matthew
Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> In article
> ,
> pete m wrote:
>
> > On Mar 27, 7:41 am, Hiedran wrote:
> > > Is there any way to display the amount of rest time that didn't get
> > > used because of disturb?
> > >
> > > For example, I rest 100 turns so I avoid the "Looks like any other
> > > level" message because the closest down stairs are 5 spaces away from
> > > where I entered the level. While I'm resting, a single orc shaman
> > > comes into LoS. Now I don't know how long I've rested because I'm
> > > still full and I've got permanent light.
> > >
> > > Rest 100 again, and a green centipede comes in. Repeat ad nauseum
> > > until nothing disturbs, because each time I might have rested only 5
> > > turns.
> > >
> > > Only a minor annoyance.
> >
> > I think you are missing a point here--those 100 turns are intended to
> > make stair-scumming annoying. What you are asking is to make resting
> > a fixed number of turns easier just to ... make stair scumming easier.
>
> The OP's complaint is that those 100 turns don't just make scumming
> annoying, but also interfere with fast diving ("the closest down
> stairs").
The OP has intentionally decided not to dive as fast as possible, as the level
feeling is actually useful to him.
If I could configure the level feeling to react to items on the floor that are
useful but in depth, and further more react to *my* notion of how useful the
items are, I'd actually consider using the feeling. Being able to configure
hazardous monsters would also be a bonus, although perhaps that should be
another axis of level feeling. Thinking about it...the fixed object-based level
feeling should be configurable from the squelch interface.
As it is, both the level feeling and autoscum are next-to-useless in V3.0.9-.
Hiedran
> In article
> <59c0c69a-c33b-4d1e-9cbf-0832c7cd6...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> pete m <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 7:41 am, Hiedran <hiedran.the.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Is there any way to display the amount of rest time that didn't get
> > > used because of disturb?
>
> > > For example, I rest 100 turns so I avoid the "Looks like any other
> > > level" message because the closest down stairs are 5 spaces away from
> > > where I entered the level. While I'm resting, a single orc shaman
> > > comes into LoS. Now I don't know how long I've rested because I'm
> > > still full and I've got permanent light.
>
> > > Rest 100 again, and a green centipede comes in. Repeat ad nauseum
> > > until nothing disturbs, because each time I might have rested only 5
> > > turns.
>
> > > Only a minor annoyance.
>
> > I think you are missing a point here--those 100 turns are intended to
> > make stair-scumming annoying. What you are asking is to make resting
> > a fixed number of turns easier just to ... make stair scumming easier.
>
> The OP's complaint is that those 100 turns don't just make scumming
> annoying, but also interfere with fast diving ("the closest down
> stairs").
>
I'm not trying to scum. Only times I scum are start (but I don't care
about level feeling at that point), 1000' (FA), and 2000' (RPois).
The rest of the time I'm moving through uninteresting levels quickly
(for me).
It's really annoying when I'm resting and a wolfpack is banging down
doors.
I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the distance.
You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns before hearing
something in the distance.-
Hiedran
wrote:
I think level feeling shouldn't reflect in-depth items or monsters.
To the character, they're par for the course, so nothing special. (An
argument could be made about the character loving certain types of
items or despising types of monsters, though.)
I think customizing level feeling isn't vanilla.
Btw, the reason level feelings are important are if there's an
artifact (or ego, sufficiently early) laying on the floor. Or Godly
Insights at 50', curse that crash!
Eddie Grove
> I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the distance.
> You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns before hearing
> something in the distance.-
Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then?
If not, your problem will be solved as a side effect.
Eddie
Hiedran
Put that way, no I won't care. But I will care that level feelings
are gone. Mostly because I don't want to miss an unique on the
floor. But I'm also sure that I'll adapt, since I care more about
level feeling in early game.
The Wanderer
> On Mar 27, 12:53 pm, Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd <zaim...@zaimoni.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-03-27 19:01:09, Matthew Collett <m.coll...@auckland.ac.nz>
>> wrote:
>>> The OP's complaint is that those 100 turns don't just make
>>> scumming annoying, but also interfere with fast diving ("the
>>> closest down stairs").
>>
>> The OP has intentionally decided not to dive as fast as possible,
>> as the level feeling is actually useful to him.
>>
>> If I could configure the level feeling to react to items on the
>> floor that are useful but in depth, and further more react to *my*
>> notion of how useful the items are, I'd actually consider using the
>> feeling. Being able to configure hazardous monsters would also be
>> a bonus, although perhaps that should be another axis of level
>> feeling. Thinking about it...the fixed object-based level feeling
>> should be configurable from the squelch interface.
>>
>> As it is, both the level feeling and autoscum are next-to-useless
>> in V3.0.9-.
>
> I think level feeling shouldn't reflect in-depth items or monsters.
> To the character, they're par for the course, so nothing special.
Oh, really?
A character who is way out of his or her ordinary depth might well be
very interested in an item which is in its depth - *Healing*, or stat
potions, or Acquirement, for instance. Just because they're in-depth
doesn't mean they aren't special, either on account of being rare at any
depth or on account of the character not having obtained enough of them
for said character's own personal tastes.
> I think customizing level feeling isn't vanilla.
As long as it's optional, I don't see why not. Then again, there are
some things being proposed (and some, I seem to recall, actually
implemented) which I don't think fit in Vanilla and which others seem to
like, so I'm not necessarily one to talk.
> Btw, the reason level feelings are important are if there's an
> artifact (or ego, sufficiently early) laying on the floor. Or Godly
> Insights at 50', curse that crash!
And if that ego item (or artifact, if playing in preserve mode) is in
depth but still enough better than what you have to be valuable? Not
terribly unlikely if you're diving quickly, I'd imagine.
Personally, I tend to use level feelings not so much as a gauge of how
good the loot from a level is likely to be but as a gauge of how
dangerous the level is likely to be. I still explore, sometimes more
thoroughly then I would otherwise, but far more cautiously on a "superb"
level than an "ordinary" one. It wouldn't really fit well in Vanilla,
but the change made by some variants to having level feelings be of
increasing danger instead of increasing "wow!" is one which makes quite
a bit of sense to me.
--
The Wanderer
My usual .sig is on vacation while I adjust to my new computer
The Wanderer
Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
development repository, or some such thing?
Andrew Sidwell
> Eddie Grove wrote:
>
>> Hiedran <hiedran....@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the
>>> distance. You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns
>>> before hearing something in the distance.-
>>
>> Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then? If not,
>> your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
> remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
> development repository, or some such thing?
They might not be gone in 3.1.0 but I think they will be gone by 3.2.0.
It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering a
level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that feelings are
unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be honest.)
--
Andrew Sidwell
http://rephial.org/
Eddie Grove
> Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> > Hiedran <hiedran....@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the
> >> distance. You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns
> >> before hearing something in the distance.-
> > Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then? If not,
> > your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
> remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
> development repository, or some such thing?
I don't remember where I read it, but I know I read it somewhere that seemed
reliable at the time. I don't see it as much of a change, but I never play
with preserve off.
Eddie
The Wanderer
Neither do I, but I like level feelings; they're a distinctive part of
the Angband experience for me. Not to mention that I do make use of them
to some extent, as a gauge for when I should be especially cautious
while exploring a new level vs. when it isn't so important (at least at
first, while new monsters won't have spawned yet), and occasionally as a
reason to stick around a bit longer because "I haven't found any
out-of-depth items, especially dangerous monsters, or unusual level
features yet, but there has to have been *some* reason this level gave
such a good feeling"...
Suffice to say, I would not be particularly happy to see them go,
especially not if there is not some reason why keeping them would be
problematic. I would be interested in the possibility of improving them,
whether in general or by allowing customization or by some other means,
but I'm not especially displeased with them as they stand.
Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> > Hiedran writes:
> >
> >> I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the
> >> distance. You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns
> >> before hearing something in the distance.-
> >
> > Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then? If not,
> > your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
> remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
> development repository, or some such thing?
I knew about it only because I intentionally read the Trac repository to decide
what changes should or should not be ported to my variant. It is scheduled to
be no later than V1.2.0.
I believe it has been mentioned elsewhere (both Oook forum and RGRA), but very
infrequently.
Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> Hiedran wrote:
>
> > On Mar 27, 12:53 pm, Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 2008-03-27 19:01:09, Matthew Collett
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> The OP's complaint is that those 100 turns don't just make
> >>> scumming annoying, but also interfere with fast diving ("the
> >>> closest down stairs").
> >>
> >> The OP has intentionally decided not to dive as fast as possible,
> >> as the level feeling is actually useful to him.
> >>
> >> If I could configure the level feeling to react to items on the
> >> floor that are useful but in depth, and further more react to *my*
> >> notion of how useful the items are, I'd actually consider using the
> >> feeling. Being able to configure hazardous monsters would also be
> >> a bonus, although perhaps that should be another axis of level
> >> feeling. Thinking about it...the fixed object-based level feeling
> >> should be configurable from the squelch interface.
> >>
> >> As it is, both the level feeling and autoscum are next-to-useless
> >> in V3.0.9-.
> >
> > I think level feeling shouldn't reflect in-depth items or monsters.
> > To the character, they're par for the course, so nothing special.
>
> Oh, really?
>
> A character who is way out of his or her ordinary depth might well be
> very interested in an item which is in its depth - *Healing*, or stat
> potions, or Acquirement, for instance. Just because they're in-depth
> doesn't mean they aren't special, either on account of being rare at any
> depth or on account of the character not having obtained enough of them
> for said character's own personal tastes.
In my case, I'm interested in several things:
* useful objects that have suddenly gone in depth (when I'm building a stack of
attack rods, for instance)
* the dungeon spellbooks are underrated under the current system
* monsters of unusual lethality.
I honestly couldn't care less about ego armors that only provide single resists
most of the time: they're not even useful as cashflow (dominated by ego
weapons). Ego armors have have higher ratings than either useful objects or
dangerous monsters, so from my point of view the rating system is actively
misleading.
I do agree that allowing player configurablility is *very* abusable, but I just
don't see how "one-size fits all" is going to work without thoroughly
rebalancing both monsters and item pricing.
Timo Pietilä
> The Wanderer wrote:
>> Eddie Grove wrote:
>>> Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then? If not,
>>> your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>>
>> Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
>> remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
>> development repository, or some such thing?
>
> They might not be gone in 3.1.0 but I think they will be gone by 3.2.0.
I was going to ask what are you going to do with preserve mode, but only
way to make that work is to remove that too.
> It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering a
> level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that feelings are
> unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be honest.)
I find them quite useful. Superb level early is almost always pit or
vault. If I get superb and there is no vault or pit in level then it
must be several egos/artifacts or bad case of OoD monsters. Deep in
dungeon they get less and less useful.
Make it like it is solved in several variants: give feeling after you
have spent some time in level.
Timo Pietilä
Billy Bissette
8fb4-be2...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Hiedran <hiedran.the.fi...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the distance.
>> > You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns before hearing
>> > something in the distance.-
>>
>> Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then?
>> If not, your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> Put that way, no I won't care. But I will care that level feelings
> are gone. Mostly because I don't want to miss an unique on the
> floor. But I'm also sure that I'll adapt, since I care more about
> level feeling in early game.
Level feelings haven't really mattered since the option to preserve
artifacts became the standard.
pete m
> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> > The Wanderer wrote:
> >> Eddie Grove wrote:
> >>> Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then? If not,
> >>> your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> >> Okay, THAT's a fairly big change. When was this announced? I don't
> >> remember hearing about it... or did you pick it up from watching the
> >> development repository, or some such thing?
>
> > They might not be gone in 3.1.0 but I think they will be gone by 3.2.0.
>
> I was going to ask what are you going to do with preserve mode, but only
> way to make that work is to remove that too.
>
> > It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering a
> > level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that feelings are
> > unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be honest.)
>
> I find them quite useful. Superb level early is almost always pit or
> vault. If I get superb and there is no vault or pit in level then it
> must be several egos/artifacts or bad case of OoD monsters.
Or an out of depth speed ring. With autoscum off, this has about the
same frequency as a greater vault. (GV's only tend to appear at 4500'
and below.)
I agree--most of the really weak feelings give very little
information, but 'good' often means something and 'very good' or
'superb' very frequently does.
a
"Eddie Grove" <eddie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87lk44e...@hotmail.com...
Level feelings are fun for most people, I daresay. Why are they being
removed?
pete m
> "Eddie Grove" <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:87lk44e...@hotmail.com...
>
> > Hiedran <hiedran.the.fi...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> I think it would be nice to see -You hear something in the distance.
> >> You rested for 45 turns.- or -You rested for 45 turns before hearing
> >> something in the distance.-
>
> > Level feelings are going away in 3.1.0. Will you care then?
> > If not, your problem will be solved as a side effect.
>
> Level feelings are fun for most people, I daresay. Why are they being
> removed?
Can you please change your name to something that isn't an unclosed
html tag? Surely you can find a different satisfactory name than
<a>
Otherwise, I agree with you completely.
FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet
"pete m" <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ff6db04-7b5a-4e38...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
No problem!
> Otherwise, I agree with you completely.
So, does anybody know why they're being removed?
Timo Pietilä
This is from Andrews message:
"It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering a
level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that feelings are
unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be honest.) "
So reason seems to be that they are pretty useless and unnecessary. No
other reason AFAIK.
Timo Pietilä
FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet
"Timo Pietilä" <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:65lp2dF...@mid.individual.net...
> This is from Andrews message:
>
> "It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering a
> level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that feelings are
> unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be honest.) "
>
> So reason seems to be that they are pretty useless and unnecessary. No
> other reason AFAIK.
>
> Timo Pietilä
I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
And, if they're fun, they're not useless.
The Wanderer
> "Timo Pietil�" <timo.p...@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:65lp2dF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> This is from Andrews message:
>>
>> "It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering
>> a level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that
>> feelings are unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be
>> honest.) "
>>
>> So reason seems to be that they are pretty useless and unnecessary.
>> No other reason AFAIK.
>>
>> Timo Pietil�
>
> I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
> compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
>
> And, if they're fun, they're not useless.
Exactly.
They're flavor, they're atmosphere, they're part of the overall feel
which is "Angband".
Removing them seems like a loss, to me.
Martin Bazley
Hiedran filtered slowly through the cosmos...
> Is there any way to display the amount of rest time that didn't get
> used because of disturb?
>
Yes. Play Kamband.
--
__<^>__ I thought DFS was a brand of sofa until I discovered the Beeb.
/ _، ،_ \ Posted by Martin Bazley from British technology.
( ( |_| ) )
\_> <_/ ...Dictionopolis rules, leads, dominates, dictates,
governs, all right, OK, adequately, satisfactorily, well enough
FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet
"The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:INKdnQR2u4j0kWva...@comcast.com...
> FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet wrote:
>
>> I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
>> compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
>>
>> And, if they're fun, they're not useless.
>
> Exactly.
>
> They're flavor, they're atmosphere, they're part of the overall feel
> which is "Angband".
>
> Removing them seems like a loss, to me.
I'm getting the feeling that the next maintainer might be re-booting V from
3.09.
Andrew Sidwell
> I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
> compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
I'm pretty sure they were, but meh.
(another message)
> I'm getting the feeling that the next maintainer might be re-booting V from
> 3.09.
That would be a waste. It would be much easier to undo the gameplay
changes then to start clean from 3.0.9.
Regardless, I have no plans to remove level feelings anymore. Reshape
them, yes, but not remove. Also, probably not for 3.1.0; they're
current in working order in the dev branch.
The original version of Angband does seem to only print level feelings
occasionally. I far prefer that approach. And the reason I say
feelings are currently useless is just because the level rating code is
pretty crude. (I also don't like some of the code cruft associated with
ratings, but that would be a bad reason to remove a feature.)
HTH,
Andrew Sidwell
> Eddie Grove wrote:
>> seemed reliable at the time. I don't see it as much of a change, but
>> I never play with preserve off.
>
> Neither do I, but I like level feelings; they're a distinctive part of
> the Angband experience for me. Not to mention that I do make use of them
> to some extent, as a gauge for when I should be especially cautious
> while exploring a new level vs. when it isn't so important (at least at
> first, while new monsters won't have spawned yet), and occasionally as a
> reason to stick around a bit longer because "I haven't found any
> out-of-depth items, especially dangerous monsters, or unusual level
> features yet, but there has to have been *some* reason this level gave
> such a good feeling"...
This is the kind of information it is useful to have -- how people make
use of the feelings. Danger gauging is different to level scumming,
something I want to discourage. It might be possible to design a kind
of level feeling that gives the benefits but removes the scummability.
(Probably not likely, but maybe possible. :)
> Suffice to say, I would not be particularly happy to see them go,
> especially not if there is not some reason why keeping them would be
> problematic. I would be interested in the possibility of improving them,
> whether in general or by allowing customization or by some other means,
> but I'm not especially displeased with them as they stand.
I would not allow customisation of level feelings-- the thought makes me
cringe. :)
Thank you for your feedback,
Timo Pietilä
> FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet wrote:
>> I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
>> compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
>
> I'm pretty sure they were, but meh.
Level feelings are there for showing up "special" levels (original
angaband doesn't have preserve mode) and giving player information that
this or that level might be unusual. Unusual levels are not weakness in
dungeon generation, it is its strong point. If every level is the same
it gets boring very fast.
> The original version of Angband does seem to only print level feelings
> occasionally. I far prefer that approach.
Why not go for what several variants have done, IE. give level feeling
only after some time has passed _in level_.
> And the reason I say
> feelings are currently useless is just because the level rating code is
> pretty crude.
That part I agree. Pits give superb level feeling too easily, very OoD
dangerous monster not easily enough. in-level artifact usually doesn't
boost level rating almost at all unless you play preserve off. Rating
levels could be quite difficult task to do well.
BTW. for pits, could you remove Troll Priests from them? They are not
included in pits originally. Or take out FORCE_MAXHP flag from them? (I
count them very annoying monsters).
Timo Pietilä
Eddie Grove
> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> > FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet wrote:
> >> I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
> >> compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
> > I'm pretty sure they were, but meh.
>
> Level feelings are there for showing up "special" levels (original angaband
> doesn't have preserve mode) and giving player information that this or that
> level might be unusual. Unusual levels are not weakness in dungeon generation,
> it is its strong point. If every level is the same it gets boring very fast.
>
> > The original version of Angband does seem to only print level feelings
> > occasionally. I far prefer that approach.
>
> Why not go for what several variants have done, IE. give level feeling only
> after some time has passed _in level_.
Level feelings seem to me to be about the equivalent of a cLevel 25 spell
which should cost 20 mana. That ranger who takes thousands of game turns to
notice his sword is on fire, or an artifact in his pack, can quickly "feel"
something out of depth on the other side of the dungeon. I don't care one way
or the other, but it makes so little sense you might as well do whatever seems
most fun. Why not just give instant level feelings on all levels? If you are
opposed to scumming for artifacts on the ground, count only monsters towards
the level feelings.
Eddie
Eddie Grove
> BTW. for pits, could you remove Troll Priests from them? They are not
> included in pits originally. Or take out FORCE_MAXHP flag from them? (I
> count them very annoying monsters).
Or at least move them to dLevel 35. I'd rather have troll priests
in the interior with cave trolls around the edge than vice versa.
Eddie
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>This is the kind of information it is useful to have -- how people make
>use of the feelings. Danger gauging is different to level scumming,
>something I want to discourage. It might be possible to design a kind
>of level feeling that gives the benefits but removes the scummability.
>(Probably not likely, but maybe possible. :)
One of the better level feelings means it is worth checking out a level
instead of taking the first stairs down. (Of course, there are other
possible reasons, like being sufficiently deep already.)
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Holy Avenger should be a Paladin title,
not an ego item.
Antoine
> FirstLetterOfTheAlphabet wrote:
> > "Timo Pietil�" <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> >news:65lp2dF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> This is from Andrews message:
>
> >> "It might be appropriate to sometimes print something when entering
> >> a level, but the dungeon generator should be good enough that
> >> feelings are unnecessary. (They're already pretty useless, to be
> >> honest.) "
>
> >> So reason seems to be that they are pretty useless and unnecessary.
> >> No other reason AFAIK.
>
> >> Timo Pietil�
>
> > I do not understand that reason. Level feelings were not added to
> > compensate for weaknesses in dungeon generation.
>
> > And, if they're fun, they're not useless.
>
> Exactly.
>
> They're flavor, they're atmosphere, they're part of the overall feel
> which is "Angband".
Mind you, I'd rather have some more informative feelings.
'You see troll spoor scattered about'
'The walls are slimy and covered in mould'
'Some great, scaly beast has passed this way'
'You sense that a valuable treasure is nearby'
A.
Rich Walker
> Why not go for what several variants have done, IE. give level feeling
> only after some time has passed _in level_.
And after you've spent long enough on the previous level as
well. Makes bouncing up and down stairs pleasantly hazardous.
--
rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | r...@shadow.org.uk
technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow
need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487
http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/
Martin Bazley
> Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> > The original version of Angband does seem to only print level feelings
> > occasionally. I far prefer that approach.
>
> Why not go for what several variants have done, IE. give level feeling
> only after some time has passed _in level_.
>
I'm sorry, I can't let yet another person advocate this hideously
exploitable system once more. All you have to do is rest on top of the
stairs until you get a level feeling.
Now, I seem to remember reading that some old variant (either FAngband
or BAngband) implemented a completely different system - only give a
feeling when a set portion of the level has been actually explored.
This would eliminate stair-scumming altogether.
--
__<^>__ I thought DFS was a brand of sofa until I discovered the Beeb.
/ _Ź Ź_ \ Posted by Martin Bazley from British technology.
( ( |_| ) )
\_> <_/ ...Spool chequers rile, ON
Eddie Grove
> In a distant and second-hand set of dimensions, the words of
> Timo Pietilä filtered slowly through the cosmos...
>
> > Andrew Sidwell wrote:
> > > The original version of Angband does seem to only print level feelings
> > > occasionally. I far prefer that approach.
> >
> > Why not go for what several variants have done, IE. give level feeling
> > only after some time has passed _in level_.
> >
> I'm sorry, I can't let yet another person advocate this hideously
> exploitable system once more. All you have to do is rest on top of the
> stairs until you get a level feeling.
If you have to explore the level to see what's on the level, that basically
defeats the purpose of a level feeling in the first place.
I'd propose to make it instant, but depend only on the power of the monsters.
\sum (avg_damage * speed * hp) as an initial approximation, undervalues summoners.
But would that still be fun? That's the main question.
Eddie
Eddie Grove
> I'm sorry, I can't let yet another person advocate this hideously
> exploitable system once more. All you have to do is rest on top of the
> stairs until you get a level feeling.
If the only worry is to avoid exploitation, why not turn off level feelings
if you leave the level from the same square you entered it?
AFAIAC, when you make the conscious decision to play with connected stairs,
you are explicitly deciding to allow stairscumming, so I don't understand why
you would then complain about things that peripherally help with scumming.
Eddie
pete m
Yeah, I agree with this. The way to avoid stair-scumming is: don't do
it. I admit to using the stairs up occasionally, but only if I'm
faced with some ghastly mess on entering the level. (A roomful of
Gravity Hounds, etc.)
Eddie Grove
> I admit to using the stairs up occasionally, but only if I'm
> faced with some ghastly mess on entering the level. (A roomful of
> Gravity Hounds, etc.)
But then you lose the adrenaline rush when not knowing whether your 6% failure
rate with your staff will end your game. :) A few close calls sweeten the win.
Eddie
pete m
I kind of felt like that until I came down adjacent to a magic
mushroom patch and a bunch of sleeping stone trolls, and not far away
from a fire vortex. I died immediately after, confused, slowed and
seeing things.
I get sufficient other close calls from a handful of calculated
risks.
In any case, my original arguments stands: if you don't like stair
scumming, don't do it. It's like golf: in the end, you are playing
against the course and against yourself, not other players.
The Wanderer
When I make the conscious decision to play with connected stairs, it is
A: because not having a staircase I could have arrived on the level by
doesn't make sense to me, and B: because that way I have a known avenue
of retreat if I need one. If I decide a level is too dangerous, and
retreat from it by the stairs I arrived on, I don't see why that should
deny me the ability to gain an impression of the new level I arrive at
in the same way as I gain impressions of most levels.
For the record and what it's worth: aside from occasional things at DL1
to wait for shops to restock, I've never done level-related scumming,
and I neither intend nor expect that to change.
Andrew Sidwell
> BTW. for pits, could you remove Troll Priests from them? They are not
> included in pits originally. Or take out FORCE_MAXHP flag from them? (I
> count them very annoying monsters).
Only uniques have their HP forced to be the maximum now, you'll be
pleased to hear. (This was a while ago, when I moved monster HP from
being specified in terms of hit dice to an average rating.)