[Sang & others] Level Feelings
camlost
etc.). Other variants (Z, S, among others) implement "negative" level
feelings (you feel unlucky, etc.). However, neither set of level
feelings accurately describe levels. Some levels make you nervous when
Glamdring is on the floor, other levels make you feel lucky if there is
a pit of OOD monsters.
This is an obvious solution; have good items increase the "positive"
level feeling, OOD monsters the "negative", and pits both. Then
reference a matrix to give a level feeling. Below (at bottom) is a
possible matrix (each section corresponds to the same amount of loot,
and increasing within a category is increasing dangerous).
The obvious problem with this is the possibility for (stair) scumming.
Now, Sangband already has some exploitability built-in based on
precognition messages, so this may not be as big a concern.
So, one possible solution is to base how "accurate" the level feeling is
on either the "perception skill" or on the player's "perception" as
displayed in character screen. Error in the level feeling might be a
short random walk away from the actual level feeling, for instance.
High perception characters have shorter random walks than low perception
characters.
The other possibility is to *replace* precognition messages with this
new level feeling system and make low perception characters err toward
the feelings on the diagonal, where treasure is proportionate to danger,
and only let high perception characters get true/complete level feelings.
Are there any thoughts on any part of this system? Which is a better
"solution" to the exploitation?
This seems a quiet, peaceful place.
-> You feel uneasy
-> You have a bad feeling about this place.
-> This place feels terribly dangerous!
-> Premonitions of death appall you! This place is murderous!
You might find something of use here.
-> Not just any level.
-> You feel nervous.
-> This place feels dangerous…
-> Drums pound in the dark: Doom, Doom
You feel giddy.
-> You feel relaxed.
-> Perhaps you should go have a look around.
-> You feel trepidatious.
-> Your stomach sinks through the floor.
This level is adorned with silver.
-> You feel a tingle of anticipation.
-> A most interesting level.
-> Your heart races.
-> Danger and Reward await you.
This level is adorned with gold.
-> You smile uncontrollably.
-> You have a great feeling about this level.
-> Reward and Danger await you.
-> This level reminds you of why you became and adventurer!
Matthias Kurzke
issue is something that needs to be adressed there as well, possibly
more urgently, if somebody comes and maintains Vanilla anytime soon.
camlost wrote:
> Now, some variants implement "positive" level feelings (you feel lucky,
> etc.). Other variants (Z, S, among others) implement "negative" level
> feelings (you feel unlucky, etc.). However, neither set of level
> feelings accurately describe levels. Some levels make you nervous when
> Glamdring is on the floor, other levels make you feel lucky if there is
> a pit of OOD monsters.
>
> This is an obvious solution; have good items increase the "positive"
> level feeling, OOD monsters the "negative", and pits both. Then
> reference a matrix to give a level feeling. Below (at bottom) is a
> possible matrix (each section corresponds to the same amount of loot,
> and increasing within a category is increasing dangerous).
>
I don't think that it's really a problem that monsters ("bad things")
and objects ("good things") are given by the same scale (deep uniques
can also mean a chance of good loot). The problem in my opinion is that
the level feeling system is so terribly broken (at least in Vanilla):
- Many OOD monsters in pits (especially jelly pits) generate a too-high
feeling. Some variants solve this by giving a feeling value to the pit,
not to the individual monsters.
- Many weak ego items can give a great feeling, and it is not clear to
the player why they got that feeling if the player doesn't count how
many weapons of flame and armors or resist cold they ignored on that level.
- Artifacts give a rating boost of 10 or 20 depending on their price.
Most ego items give higher rating boosts (up to 30!), and so do Rings of
Speed and certain amulets (devotion, magi, trickery, weaponmastery) --
25 each.
Ugh. The rating boosts given are broken almost as bad as prices are (A
Ring of Speed (+1) should not be worth more than a Ring of Damage (+12),
for instance). Does Sangband adress these problems (haven't played in a
while)?
One other problem is that the messages need to be clearer. One problem
with the Vanilla level feelings is that there's too many of them that
sound similar. It is not obvious what is better:
"You feel strangely lucky...", "You feel your luck is turning...",
"You like the look of this place...", "This level can't be all bad...".
To a newbie, it isn't even clear that all of these are bad level
feelings, close to "boring".
Matthias
Scott Yost
> -> Drums pound in the dark: Doom, Doom
>
> You feel giddy.
> -> You feel relaxed.
> -> Perhaps you should go have a look around.
> -> You feel trepidatious.
> -> Your stomach sinks through the floor.
>
> This level is adorned with silver.
> -> You feel a tingle of anticipation.
> -> A most interesting level.
> -> Your heart races.
> -> Danger and Reward await you.
>
> This level is adorned with gold.
> -> You smile uncontrollably.
> -> You have a great feeling about this level.
> -> Reward and Danger await you.
> -> This level reminds you of why you became and adventurer!
The main problem I have with this idea is that it's almost hard enough
as is to tell the difference between the level feelings without having
a lookup chart. With those, you really would need a lookup table to
know what it meant.
One thing about this system is that, in general, danger-ness does turn
into rewards. In-depth pits are usually a decent source of
treasure/EXP, and uniques tend to have better. Player ghosts (in Sang
at least) tend to drop chests or large chunks of cash as well. So the
measure of danger seems reasonable. The one part that's actually
inconsistent is the feeling for artifacts - they have no danger
associated with them so they don't fit into the system. I think
Sangband has preserve on perpetually, so if we cut the feeling boost
from artifacts, I think the whole system would be consistent.
Scott
camlost
As currently in Sangband, there would presumably be some form of color
coding. Perhaps yellow, orange and red to indicate dangerous levels,
and green and blue to indicate loot-rich levels, and intermediate colors
to indicate intermediate level feelings.
It's true that in general, OOD monsters in Sang leads to goot loot, but
that's not always true (only true if they have drops, for instance, and
you can kill them). The hope with the two dimensional array of feelings
is so that they're actually easier to understand and interpret.
Admittedly, there are a lot of them (25), but in general, they should be
somewhat indicative of what's in store for the level. Do you have
suggestions for alternatives wordings? Is it just too many?
I thought Sang had preserve off perpetually. Perhaps I'm confused. Of
course, there have been a few artifacts I've missed that show up in the
"found artifacts" section. I had assumed that was a bug, not preserve mode.
If you cut the feeling boost from artifacts, what's to keep you from
losing artifacts, if indeed preserve is on?
Joshua
Leon Marrick
camlost wrote:
> This is an obvious solution; have good items increase the "positive"
> level feeling, OOD monsters the "negative", and pits both. Then
> reference a matrix to give a level feeling. Below (at bottom) is a
> possible matrix (each section corresponds to the same amount of loot,
> and increasing within a category is increasing dangerous).
>
> The obvious problem with this is the possibility for (stair) scumming.
> Now, Sangband already has some exploitability built-in based on
> precognition messages, so this may not be as big a concern.
>
> So, one possible solution is to base how "accurate" the level feeling is
> on either the "perception skill" or on the player's "perception" as
> displayed in character screen. Error in the level feeling might be a
> short random walk away from the actual level feeling, for instance. High
> perception characters have shorter random walks than low perception
> characters.
>
> The other possibility is to *replace* precognition messages with this
> new level feeling system and make low perception characters err toward
> the feelings on the diagonal, where treasure is proportionate to danger,
> and only let high perception characters get true/complete level feelings.
>
> Are there any thoughts on any part of this system? Which is a better
> "solution" to the exploitation?
I like the idea in principle. I think it belongs in some variant,
I'm just not sure if Sangband is the right one. So I'll watch this
thread and see what opinions people have on it.
----------------------
Matthias Kurzke wrote:
(argument that level feelings are broken in Angband)
> Does Sangband adress these problems (haven't played in a
> while)?
By your standards, I would say that S has fixed about 40% of the problem.
> One other problem is that the messages need to be clearer. One problem
> with the Vanilla level feelings is that there's too many of them that
> sound similar. It is not obvious what is better:
> "You feel strangely lucky...", "You feel your luck is turning...", "You
> like the look of this place...", "This level can't be all bad...".
>
> To a newbie, it isn't even clear that all of these are bad level
> feelings, close to "boring".
Agreed. I rewrote a few. More importantly, I added color.
--------------
Sangband and preserve mode:
In Sangband, artifacts (including random artifacts) are always
preserved. If you lose an artifact without seeing and identifying it,
then that is a bug.
I have reason to suspect that artifacts may still be being lost in
some rarely-triggered function. If you see this problem, let me know.
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