I need end game advice!
lcc
What should I sell, and what should I gather more of? Also, is the
loss of 6 speed from 32 to 26 and aggravate monster worth
invulnerability to fire and harder hitting from Deathwreaker vs Orome?
I eagerly await advice before I go downstairs again...
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8974
[Angband 3.1.0 beta Character Dump]
Sex Male Age 48 STR! 18/100 +2 +3 +14 18/
***
Race Dwarf Height 44 INT! 18/100 -3 -3 +3
18/70
Class Paladin Weight 147 WIS! 18/100 +2 +1 +3
18/160
Title Paladin Lord Social Lordly DEX! 18/100 -2 +0 +6
18/140
HP 1014/1014 Maximize Y CON! 18/100 +2 +2 +9 18/
***
SP 294/329 CHR! 18/100 -3 +2 +0
18/90
Level 48 Armor [28,+137] Saving Throw
99%
Cur Exp 5954561 Fight (+42,+30) Stealth
Fair
Max Exp 5954561 Melee (+60,+48) Fighting
Legendary
Adv Exp 6200000 Shoot (+59,+19) Shooting
Heroic
MaxDepth 4750' (L95) Blows 5/turn Disarming
65%
Turns 2835861 Shots 1/turn Magic Device
Heroic
Gold 2990030 Infra 50 ft Perception 1 in
38
Burden 212.8 lbs Speed 26 Searching
19%
You are the only child of a Dwarven Warrior. You are a credit to the
family. You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a one foot
beard, and a dark complexion.
Acid:......+.++... Confu:......+......
Elec:........++... Sound:.............
Fire:*.......++... Shard:.............
Cold:........++... Nexus:.............
Pois:......++..... Nethr:.............
Fear:....+....+... Chaos:+............
Lite:............. Disen:+...+........
Dark:+............ S.Dig:.............
Blind:............+ Feath:.............
PLite:.........+... Aggrv:+............
Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
Telep:.........+... Sear.:.............
Invis:.....+...+... Infra:............+
FrAct:.+..+.....+.. Tunn.:+............
HLife:............. Speed:.+++.......+.
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
Fear:............. Might:.+...........
[Character Equipment]
a) The Mace of Disruption 'Deathwreaker' (7d8) (+18,+18) (+6)
+6 strength, tunneling.
Provides immunity to fire.
Provides resistance to fire, dark, chaos, disenchantment.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Aggravates creatures nearby.
With this weapon, you would currently get 5 blows per round.
Each
blow will do an average damage of 111 against animals, 111
against
evil creatures, 142.5 against dragons, 142.5 against
fire-vulnerable creatures, 205.5 against undead, and 79.5 against
normal creatures.
b) The Long Bow of Bard (x3) (+17,+19) (+2)
+2 dexterity, speed, shooting power.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Prevents paralysis.
c) a Diamond Ring of Speed (+8)
+8 speed.
d) a Diamond Ring of Speed (+8)
+8 speed.
e) a Silver Amulet of Weaponmastery (+4,+3) (+2)
+2 strength.
Provides resistance to fear, disenchantment.
Sustains strength, constitution.
Prevents paralysis.
f) The Star of Elendil
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.
When activated, it maps the area around you in a 30-radius
circle.
It takes 50 turns to recharge after use.
Radius 3 light.
g) The Augmented Chain Mail of Caspanion (-2) [16,+20] (+3)
+3 intelligence, wisdom, constitution.
Provides resistance to acid, poison, confusion.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
When activated, it destroys all traps and doors surrounding you.
It takes 10 turns to recharge after use.
h) an Ethereal Cloak of Aman [0,+39] (+3 stealth)
+3 stealth.
Provides resistance to poison.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
i) The Large Metal Shield of Anarion [5,+20]
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Sustains strength, intelligence, wisdom, dexterity,
constitution,
charisma.
j) The Iron Helm of Dor-Lomin [5,+20] (+4)
+4 strength, dexterity, constitution.
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, fear.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Grants telepathy.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.
Radius 1 light.
k) The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg' (+6,+7) [1,+14] (+2)
+2 strength, constitution.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Prevents paralysis.
l) a Pair of Leather Sandals of Speed [1,+10] (+10)
+10 speed.
[Character Inventory]
a) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom]
b) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Chants and Blessings]
c) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling]
d) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Ethereal Openings]
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
e) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Godly Insights]
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
f) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Purifications and Healing]
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
g) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Holy Infusions]
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
h) 2 Blue Potions of Restore Mana
i) 4 Chartreuse Potions of Restore Life Levels
j) 8 Platinum Rods of Lightning Balls
k) 5 Tin-Plated Rods of Curing
Cannot be harmed by electricity.
l) a Copper-Plated Rod of Healing
Cannot be harmed by electricity.
m) 6 Runed Rods of Teleport Other
n) 4 Nickel-Plated Rods of Disarming
o) 3 Molybdenum Rods of Identify
Cannot be harmed by electricity.
p) a Willow Staff of *Destruction* (3 charges)
q) a Bamboo Staff of Teleportation (8 charges)
r) a Mahogany Staff of Speed (3 charges)
s) a Maple Staff of the Magi (5 charges)
t) 11 Seeker Arrows of Slay Dragon (4d4) (+13,+10)
Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit
targets
up to 160 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 585 against
dragons, and 195 against normal creatures.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.
[Home Inventory]
a) 95 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom]
b) 99 Holy Books of Prayers [Chants and Blessings]
c) 16 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling]
d) 18 Smoky Potions of Healing
When ingested, it heals you a really large amount (35% of max
HP,
minimum 300HP), heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poisoning,
blindness, and confusion.
Provides nourishment for about 100 turns under normal conditions.
e) a Gloopy Green Potion of *Healing*
When ingested, it restores 1200 hit points, heals cut damage,
and
cures stunning, poisoning, blindness, and confusion.
It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
f) a Violet Potion of Life
When ingested, it restores 5000 hit points, restores experience
an
d stats, heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poison,
blindness,
and confusion.
It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
g) 38 Chartreuse Potions of Restore Life Levels
When ingested, it restores your experience.
h) 13 Blue Speckled Potions of Speed
When ingested, it hastens you for 2d10+20 turns.
i) 3 Scrolls titled "amo insupedo" of Banishment
When read, it removes all non-unique monsters represented by a
chosen symbol from the level, dealing you damage in the process.
j) a Scroll titled "oda dempor" of Mass Banishment
When read, it removes all non-unique monsters within 20 squares,
dealing you damage in the process.
k) 5 Scrolls titled "inc scomnita" of Rune of Protection
When read, it inscribes a glyph of warding beneath you, which
monsters cannot move onto.
l) 4 Scrolls titled "infectus" of *Destruction*
When read, it destroys an area around you in the shape of a
circle
radius 15, and blinds you for 1d10+10 turns.
m) 2 Willow Staffs of *Destruction* (6 charges)
When used, it destroys an area around you in the shape of a
circle
radius 15, and blinds you for 1d10+10 turns.
n) 16 Bamboo Staffs of Teleportation (121 charges)
When used, it teleports you randomly up to 100 squares away.
o) 5 Mahogany Staffs of Speed (23 charges)
When used, it hastens you for 2d10+20 turns.
p) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [26,+25] (+1)
+1 constitution.
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, confusion,
sound, nexus.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
q) The Mithril Plate Mail of Celeborn (-3) [35,+25] (+4)
+4 strength, charisma.
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, dark,
disenchantment.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
When activated, it removes all non-unique monsters represented
by
a chosen symbol from the level, dealing you damage in the
process.
It takes 500 turns to recharge after use.
r) The Spear of Orome (4d6) (+15,+15) (+4)
+4 intelligence, infravision, speed.
Provides resistance to fire, light.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Blessed by the gods.
Feather Falling.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.
When activated, it turns rock into mud.
It takes 5 turns to recharge after use.
Radius 1 light.
With this weapon, you would currently get 5 blows per round.
Each
blow will do an average damage of 73 against animals, 87 against
giants, 87 against fire-vulnerable creatures, and 59 against
normal creatures.
s) The Quarterstaff of Olorin (2d9) (+10,+13) (+4)
+4 intelligence, wisdom, charisma.
Provides resistance to fire, nether.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Stops experience drain.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.
When activated, it gives you information on the health and
abiliti
es of monsters you can see.
It takes 20 turns to recharge after use.
With this weapon, you would currently get 5 blows per round.
Each
blow will do an average damage of 63 against evil creatures, 73
against orcs, 73 against trolls, 73 against fire-vulnerable
creatures, 93 against demons, and 53 against normal creatures.
t) The Short Bow of Amras (x2) (+12,+15) (+1 speed)
+1 intelligence, wisdom, dexterity, speed, shooting speed,
shooting power.
Provides resistance to lightning, fire, cold.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Slows your metabolism.
u) The Short Bow of Amrod (x2) (+12,+15) (+2)
+2 strength, constitution, shooting power.
Provides resistance to lightning, fire, cold.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Speeds regeneration.
v) 27 Seeker Arrows of Flame (4d4) (+12,+11)
Cannot be harmed by fire.
Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit
targets
up to 160 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 600 against
dragons, 600 against fire-vulnerable creatures, and 200 against
normal creatures.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.
w) 24 Mithril Arrows of Acid (3d4) (+15,+15)
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit
targets
up to 160 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 622.5
against
dragons, 622.5 against acid-vulnerable creatures, and 207.5
against normal creatures.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.
x) 33 Mithril Arrows of Wounding (3d4) (+22,+13)
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit
targets
up to 160 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 592.5
against
dragons, and 197.5 against normal creatures.
35% chance of breaking upon contact.
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
> I have been saving stuff for the end game, but now my home is full.
> What should I sell
All potions of RLL are useless, also your extra books are useless as
long as you use Deathwreaker, and pretty useless even without. With
Deathwreaker also extra books in your inventory are just dead weight. I
think your speed without those extra books your speed would be 28, not
26. Energy difference between 28 and 30 is just one point (37 vs 38)
making double move even more unlikely. +28 and +29 are same speed as are
+26 and +27 too. Slower than that energy drops one point per speed.
> and what should I gather more of? Also, is the
> loss of 6 speed from 32 to 26 and aggravate monster worth
> invulnerability to fire and harder hitting from Deathwreaker vs Orome?
> I eagerly await advice before I go downstairs again...
You need very little at endgame resistance-vice, they are useful against
summons, but not against M. Also wands and staves are useless. You need
potions and scrolls. IMO you don't have enough potions of *healing* and
life. Also banishment scrolls and *destruction* scrolls would be useful.
Remember that *destruction* removes also uniques, so use it only after
teleporting M away, so that you can keep on fighting.
Deathwreaker is definitely better than Orome (more that twice as good
because of massive critical hits, which shortens the endgame a lot), but
M moves at speed +30 so you need to keep yourself hasted, or get over
+30 permanent speed from other sources. If you use haste, there is a
very brief window of unlikely double-move opportunity for M when your
haste ends. If he gets it and uses both of those to manastorm you you
die. That possibility is very slim one, and because short fight with
Deathwreaker there will not be many of those.
I would risk it, but if you want to be sure get +30 permanent speed first.
Aggravation doesn't matter at the endgame because everything you will be
fighting will be aware of your existence anyway.
Timo Pietil�
Eddie Grove
> You need very little at endgame resistance-vice, they are useful against
> summons, but not against M. Also wands and staves are useless.
They are worse than useless if you are not careful. M will regain hitpoints
when he hits to drain their charges. You can use them if you keep them empty.
E.g. phase, then recharge a staff of healing, and be sure to use all charges
before you melee again.
lcc
Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
>>> You need very little at endgame resistance-vice, they are useful against
>>> summons, but not against M. Also wands and staves are useless.
>> They are worse than useless if you are not careful. M will regain hitpoints
>> when he hits to drain their charges. You can use them if you keep them empty.
>> E.g. phase, then recharge a staff of healing, and be sure to use all charges
>> before you melee again.
>
> Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
> endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
> need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
You don't need to kill them all. In fact if you kill all of them you are
in worse position than having few low level ones alive, because you will
get Black Reavers instead. Kill uniques that have nasty escorts (like
Gothmog or Vecna) or are deadly by themselves (like Tarrasque). Leave
low level ones alive (like Tom, Bert and Bill or weak Ringwraiths) if
there are any left.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> lcc wrote:
> > Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
> > endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
> > need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
>
> You don't need to kill them all. In fact if you kill all of them you are
> in worse position than having few low level ones alive, because you will
> get Black Reavers instead. Kill uniques that have nasty escorts (like
> Gothmog or Vecna) or are deadly by themselves (like Tarrasque). Leave
> low level ones alive (like Tom, Bert and Bill or weak Ringwraiths) if
> there are any left.
>
Unique not yet killed:
Name Lev Rar Spd Hp Ac
Visual Info
---- --- --- --- -- --
-----------
[U] Tom the Stone Troll 33 7 +0 1100 70
L.Slate 'T'
[U] Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw 44 3 +10 2000 90
L.Dark 'W'
[U] Glaurung, Father of the Dragons 48 2 +10 2800
120 Red 'D'
[U] Muar, the Balrog 50 3 +10 3000 100
Orange 'U'
[U] Khamul the Easterling 53 3 +10 3500 100
L.Dark 'W'
[U] Thuringwethil 55 4 +20 4000 145
L.Dark 'V'
[U] Ancalagon the Black 58 3 +10 7500 125
L.Dark 'D'
[U] Gabriel, the Messenger 59 3 +20 7500 180
White 'A'
[U] Tiamat, Celestial Dragon of Evil 70 4 +20 10000 125
Violet 'D'
[U] Vecna, the Emperor Lich 72 2 +20 5000 85
L.Red 'L'
[U] Omarax the Eye Tyrant 73 4 +20 6500 80
Violet 'e'
[U] Qlzqqlzuup, the Lord of Flesh 78 3 +20 5000 1
Orange 'Q'
[U] The Emperor Quylthulg 78 3 +20 5000 1
White 'Q'
[U] The Mouth of Sauron 78 3 +20 7000 100
Violet 'p'
[U] Murazor, the Witch-King of Angmar 80 3 +20 6000 120
L.Dark 'W'
[U] Pazuzu, Lord of Air 82 2 +30 5500 125
White 'B'
[U] Cantoras, the Skeletal Lord 84 2 +30 7500 120
White 's'
[U] The Tarrasque 84 2 +20 8500 185
Violet 'R'
[U] Lungorthin, the Balrog of White Fire 85 2 +20 8000 125
White 'U'
[U] Feagwath the Undead Sorceror 90 3 +20 6000 100
L.Red 'L'
[U] Cerberus, Guardian of Hades 94 1 +20 10000
160 Red 'C'
[U] Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs 95 1 +20 8000 140
L.Red 'U'
[Q] Sauron, the Sorcerer 99 1 +20 10500 160
Violet 'p'
[Q] Morgoth, Lord of Darkness 100 1 +30 20000 150
L.Dark 'P'
also (not listed) Maeglin the traitor of Gondor.
So I must kill Gothmog, Vecna, and the Tarrasque. Who else?
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Ray
> Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
> endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
> need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
Don't kill them unless they're worse than black reavers, because
black reavers are what M will get if he can't summon uniques.
It's to your advantage in the endgame if as many weak uniques are
still alive as you can manage. Especially valuable are those who
appear with large numbers of weak escorts, like Boldor, Lugduf,
Grishnakh or the Queen Ant. (in fact, it's worth it to try, throughout
the game, to avoid killing any unique who has escorts with no ranged
attacks).
Morgoth wastes a turn summoning these popcorn uniques, who are no
danger to you, and their escorts choke the floor to prevent a lot
of nasties from being able to quickly get to you.
I know: nice of us to let you in on that now after you've killed
them all, right?
Bear
lcc
The Black reaver (L.Dark 'L')
=== Num:524 Lev:74 Rar:3 Spd:+10 Hp:4500 Ac:170 Exp:23000
A humanoid form, black as night, advancing steadily and unstoppably,
even
the very rock of the dungeon cannot prevent it reaching you.
This evil undead creature is normally found on dungeon level 74, and
moves
quickly. It is magical, casting spells intelligently which produce
nether
balls, invoke mana storms, drain mana, cause brain smashing, cause
critical wounds, cause mortal wounds, blind, confuse, paralyze,
teleport to
or summon an undead; 1 time in 3. It can open doors, bash down doors
and
bore through walls. It is cold blooded. It resists cold and poison.
It
cannot be confused or slept. It tends to overlook intruders, which it
may
notice from 200 feet. It may carry up to 6 good objects. It can hit
to
disenchant with damage 6d8, hit to disenchant with damage 6d8, hit to
reduce strength with damage 4d6, and hit to reduce strength with
damage 4d6.
I guess that I had better learn how to deal with these. I have seen
them at a distance and avoided them, but now I hit 555 average per
turn against evil, so maybe I can deal with them with Deathwreaker.
Wielding Orome I never felt like taking a risk on the disenchant.
Which reminds me : I have resist disenchant and saving throw 99%. Does
that mean that I am pretty safe against disenchantment?
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
> On Jun 28, 8:34 am, Timo Pietil� <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> lcc wrote:
>>> Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
>>> endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
>>> need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
>> You don't need to kill them all. In fact if you kill all of them you are
>> in worse position than having few low level ones alive, because you will
>> get Black Reavers instead. Kill uniques that have nasty escorts (like
>> Gothmog or Vecna) or are deadly by themselves (like Tarrasque). Leave
>> low level ones alive (like Tom, Bert and Bill or weak Ringwraiths) if
>> there are any left.
>>
>
> Unique not yet killed:
> [U] Tiamat, Celestial Dragon of Evil 70 4 +20 10000 125
> [U] Cerberus, Guardian of Hades 94 1 +20 10000
You need to update your info. Those two don't exist anymore, and quite a
few of the others have changed quite a bit.
Timo Pietil�
Timo Pietilä
> On Jun 28, 9:07 am, Ray <b...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> lcc wrote:
>>> Thank you both for the advice. I guess that I am not ready for the
>>> endgame yet. I need more speed. I need more potions and scrolls. I
>>> need to kill about 20 unique so that they cannot be summoned...
>> Don't kill them unless they're worse than black reavers, because
>> black reavers are what M will get if he can't summon uniques.
>>
>> It's to your advantage in the endgame if as many weak uniques are
>> still alive as you can manage. Especially valuable are those who
>> appear with large numbers of weak escorts, like Boldor, Lugduf,
>> Grishnakh or the Queen Ant. (in fact, it's worth it to try, throughout
>> the game, to avoid killing any unique who has escorts with no ranged
>> attacks).
>>
>> Morgoth wastes a turn summoning these popcorn uniques, who are no
>> danger to you, and their escorts choke the floor to prevent a lot
>> of nasties from being able to quickly get to you.
>>
>> I know: nice of us to let you in on that now after you've killed
>> them all, right?
>>
>> Bear
>
>
> The Black reaver (L.Dark 'L')
> quickly. It is magical, casting spells intelligently which produce
> nether
> balls, invoke mana storms, drain mana, cause brain smashing, cause
> critical wounds, cause mortal wounds, blind, confuse, paralyze,
> teleport to or summon an undead;
In this list there is one spell why Black Reavers are so nasty.
> I guess that I had better learn how to deal with these. I have seen
> them at a distance and avoided them, but now I hit 555 average per
> turn against evil,
Much more against undead. They are dealable alone, but not when combined
with M.
> so maybe I can deal with them with Deathwreaker.
> Wielding Orome I never felt like taking a risk on the disenchant.
> Which reminds me : I have resist disenchant and saving throw 99%. Does
> that mean that I am pretty safe against disenchantment?
Saving throw doesn't mean anything against disenchantment,
disenchantment resist protects all your equipment against it. Damage is
reduced somewhat from breaths and "touch" attacks, but not against "hit"
attacks (IIRC).
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> You need to update your info. Those two don't exist anymore, and quite a
> few of the others have changed quite a bit.
>
The information comes from 3.0.6 mon-uniq.spo at oook. Perhaps
somebody could update the spoiler?
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8974
I am now level 50! 2.5 million experience gained in one session. See
the character dump comments for more information. See
http://groups.google.com/group/lonnie-courtney-clay/files?hl=en
file LCC1 level 50 for the save game file of the level where the
battle took place. After a while I just did destroy on everything
which I picked up except boots and shields. I felt heartache at
leaving rings of speed +6 and +8 on the floor along with lots of magic
books, but I could only carry a little bit back with me. The destroyed
areas were already there when I arrived...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
> On Jun 28, 9:45 am, Timo Pietil� <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> You need to update your info. Those two don't exist anymore, and quite a
>> few of the others have changed quite a bit.
>>
>
> The information comes from 3.0.6 mon-uniq.spo at oook.
Strange, those changes are JLE changes, and that has been around since
3.0.0. Cerberus and Tiamat should definitely have been history by 3.0.6.
> Perhaps
> somebody could update the spoiler?
Hugo Kornelis has made very good spoilers
(http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm), but I prefer
edit-files in lib/edit -directory. If you know what different lines in
that file means that tells you always up to date information about what
to expect and what game has. If you want your can also change things there.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> >> You need to update your info. Those two don't exist anymore, and quite a
> >> few of the others have changed quite a bit.
>
>
> > The information comes from 3.0.6 mon-uniq.spo at oook.
>
> Strange, those changes are JLE changes, and that has been around since
> 3.0.0. Cerberus and Tiamat should definitely have been history by 3.0.6.
>
> > Perhaps
> > somebody could update the spoiler?
>
> Hugo Kornelis has made very good spoilers
> (http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm), but I prefer
> edit-files in lib/edit -directory. If you know what different lines in
> that file means that tells you always up to date information about what
> to expect and what game has. If you want your can also change things there.
>
Thanks! I read most of the spoilers and made up a wish list from
artifacts :
The Light Crossbow 'Cubragol' (x3) (+10,+14)
The Power Dragon Scale Mail 'Bladeturner' (-8) [50,+35]
The Cloak 'Colluin' [1,+15]
The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+10,+10) [5,+20]
The Pair of Hard Leather Boots of Feanor [3,+20]
The Arkenstone of Thrain
The Ring of Power 'Vilya' (+10,+10)
The Ring of Power 'The One Ring' (+15,+15)
I am catching up on my sleep after that all night battle...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
pete m
You don't need need any of those, and in fact the only ones you have a
very good chance of finding are the Arkenstone (almost guaranteed) and
Fingolfin. But don't expect (or plan for) the others. You are more
than strong enough to kill Sauron and Morgoth already. The longer you
loaf around trying for the "perfect kit", the higher chance you die of
boredom.
What matters is:
1 Having enough healing
2.Having a reliable mini-escape (either 0-fail Phase Door spell, or
lots of Phase Door scroll.)
3 Some way (tactics + equipment) to deal with summons. (Rod of
Teleport other is a must. But alone it's not enough.)
Timo Pietilä
>>>>> You need to update your info. Those two don't exist anymore, and quite a
>>>>> few of the others have changed quite a bit.
>>>> The information comes from 3.0.6 mon-uniq.spo at oook.
>>> Strange, those changes are JLE changes, and that has been around since
>>> 3.0.0. Cerberus and Tiamat should definitely have been history by 3.0.6.
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> somebody could update the spoiler?
>>> Hugo Kornelis has made very good spoilers
>>> (http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/index.htm), but I prefer
>>> edit-files in lib/edit -directory. If you know what different lines in
>>> that file means that tells you always up to date information about what
>>> to expect and what game has. If you want your can also change things there.
>> Thanks! I read most of the spoilers and made up a wish list from
>> artifacts :
>> The Light Crossbow 'Cubragol' (x3) (+10,+14)
>> The Power Dragon Scale Mail 'Bladeturner' (-8) [50,+35]
>> The Cloak 'Colluin' [1,+15]
>> The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+10,+10) [5,+20]
>> The Pair of Hard Leather Boots of Feanor [3,+20]
>> The Arkenstone of Thrain
>> The Ring of Power 'Vilya' (+10,+10)
>> The Ring of Power 'The One Ring' (+15,+15)
>> I am catching up on my sleep after that all night battle...
>>
>
> You don't need need any of those, and in fact the only ones you have a
> very good chance of finding are the Arkenstone (almost guaranteed) and
> Fingolfin. But don't expect (or plan for) the others. You are more
> than strong enough to kill Sauron and Morgoth already. The longer you
> loaf around trying for the "perfect kit", the higher chance you die of
> boredom.
>
> What matters is:
> 1 Having enough healing
> 2.Having a reliable mini-escape (either 0-fail Phase Door spell, or
> lots of Phase Door scroll.)
> 3 Some way (tactics + equipment) to deal with summons. (Rod of
> Teleport other is a must. But alone it's not enough.)
I also prefer killing uniques with nasty escorts like unique balrogs,
Ancalagon, Glaurung, Vecna and Feagwath before dealing with Morgoth. Not
necessary, but makes living easier in endgame.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> I also prefer killing uniques with nasty escorts like unique balrogs,
> Ancalagon, Glaurung, Vecna and Feagwath before dealing with Morgoth. Not
> necessary, but makes living easier in endgame.
>
I already killed Ancalagon. The other three are on my priority hit
list.
Lonnie Courtney Clay
lcc
> What matters is:
> 1 Having enough healing
> 2.Having a reliable mini-escape (either 0-fail Phase Door spell, or
> lots of Phase Door scroll.)
> 3 Some way (tactics + equipment) to deal with summons. (Rod of
> Teleport other is a must. But alone it's not enough.)
Thanks for the advice. I am not satisfied that I have enough healing
22, speed 13 and restore mana 4 potions. I can always buy phase door
scrollls. I have 4 rods teleport other, down from a high of 6 due to
lightning losses. I am always on the lookout for rods...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
pete m
hasted to actually fight M. The others are good enough. (Also, carry
Wands of Teleport other with 0 charges, and use a Scrollo of
Recharging if M summons a big group of D, U or undead.)
The Wanderer
> On Jun 30, 1:55 am, lcc <claylon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 29, 11:28 pm, pete m <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What matters is:
>>> 1 Having enough healing
>>> 2.Having a reliable mini-escape (either 0-fail Phase Door spell,
>>> or lots of Phase Door scroll.)
>>> 3 Some way (tactics + equipment) to deal with summons. (Rod of
>>> Teleport other is a must. But alone it's not enough.)
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. I am not satisfied that I have enough
>> healing 22, speed 13 and restore mana 4 potions. I can always buy
>> phase door scrollls. I have 4 rods teleport other, down from a high
>> of 6 due to lightning losses. I am always on the lookout for
>> rods...
>>
> Speed 13 is way too low. You want speed 20 unhasted, and speed 30
> hasted to actually fight M.
I interpreted him as meaning that he had 22 healing potions, 13 speed
potions and 4 restore mana potions, not that he had a total speed of 13.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Timo Pietilä
> On Jun 29, 11:28 pm, pete m <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What matters is:
>> 1 Having enough healing
>> 2.Having a reliable mini-escape (either 0-fail Phase Door spell, or
>> lots of Phase Door scroll.)
>> 3 Some way (tactics + equipment) to deal with summons. (Rod of
>> Teleport other is a must. But alone it's not enough.)
>
> Thanks for the advice. I am not satisfied that I have enough healing
> 22, speed 13 and restore mana 4 potions.
I don't recall now how low failure rate paladins have with Purifications
and Healings Heal-spell. That is 1000 point healing, which can be rather
good one.
You definitely have enough ordinary healing (35%), but not *healing* and
Life. IIRC in 3.1.0 CCW heals 25% which with your HP means over 250
points of HP. That means that CCW is almost as good as old Healing with
high HP char, and difference between healing and CCW is much smaller.
Use those to save healing-potions (that healing-change might be 3.1.1
dev, so I might remember wrong)
Timo Pietil�
lcc
Paladins do not get the Healing spell in P&H. I now have 19 ! Healing,
4 !*Healing*, 2 ! Life, 5 ! Restore Mana, 13 ! Speed, 3 ? Banishment,
1 ? Mass Banishment, 7 ? Rune of Protection, and 4 ? *Destruction*. I
have about 125 ammunition for my bow. So am I ready for Sauron?
Lonnie Courtney Clay
pete m
lcc
> You'll roll over Sauron like he's not there. Then go kill Morgoth.
Ok, loading up on potions and scrolls and going after Sauron!
Lonnie Courtney Clay
lcc
Sauron is dead! I found Cubragol! Now I need bolts for it, just had
arrows for Bard. See :
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8974
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
Only ammunition with slay evil work against Morgoth, and Cubragol is not
very effective as a weapon. Also M summoning prevents use of
missile-weapons quite effectively. Use melee. Deathwreaker is best
weapon you could find.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
Thanks! You saved me some time. I will go for Morgoth NOW, using bow
slot only for speed gain...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
lcc
I won but got trash crown and hammer, not what I was hoping for...
My next character will be a Dunedain priest.
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
> http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8974
>
> I won but got trash crown and hammer, not what I was hoping for...
Congratulations!
Those crown and hammer are somehow messed up. Here is what they are in
edit-files:
N:111:'Grond'
I:hafted:Mighty Hammer~:0
W:100:1:1000:500000
P:0:9d9:5:25:10
F:KILL_DRAGON | SLAY_ANIMAL | SLAY_EVIL | IMPACT | KILL_UNDEAD |
F:KILL_DEMON | SLAY_TROLL | SLAY_ORC |
F:SEE_INVIS | TELEPATHY | AGGRAVATE | SHOW_MODS | INSTA_ART
D:The mighty Hammer of the Underworld, blackened by doomspells of
shattering,
D:whose wielder holds the lives of all Morgoth's servants in his hand.
N:34:of Morgoth
I:crown:Massive Iron Crown~:125
W:100:1:400:10000000
P:0:1d1:0:0:0
F:STR | INT | WIS | DEX | CON | CHR | INFRA | HIDE_TYPE |
F:RES_ACID | RES_ELEC | RES_FIRE | RES_COLD | RES_POIS |
F:RES_LITE | RES_DARK | RES_CONFU | RES_NEXUS | RES_NETHR |
F:LITE | SEE_INVIS | TELEPATHY | RES_FEAR |
F:LIGHT_CURSE | HEAVY_CURSE | PERMA_CURSE |
F:INSTA_ART
D:Containing much of the power of he who once was mightiest among the
Ainur,
D:this plain iron crown has mounted upon it the two remaining Silmarils,
D:greatest treasures of Middle-Earth.
In other words, crown should have been [0,0] +125 PVAL increasing your
all stats to max and hammer should have had 9d9 dice and (+5,+25) to hit
and to dam.
Bug.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> In other words, crown should have been [0,0] +125 PVAL increasing your
> all stats to max and hammer should have had 9d9 dice and (+5,+25) to hit
> and to dam.
>
> Bug.
>
I thought it was a bug. I hope 3.1.0 beta is upgraded to 3.1.0 bug
free for download before my new character wins. I have high hopes for
this third LCC3. I will play 14k+ turns per level going down, or about
2 million turns to win, rather than the 3 million of LCC1...
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9049
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Timo Pietilä
> On Jul 1, 7:41 am, Timo Pietil� <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> In other words, crown should have been [0,0] +125 PVAL increasing your
>> all stats to max and hammer should have had 9d9 dice and (+5,+25) to hit
>> and to dam.
>>
>> Bug.
>>
>
> I thought it was a bug. I hope 3.1.0 beta is upgraded to 3.1.0 bug
> free for download before my new character wins. I have high hopes for
> this third LCC3. I will play 14k+ turns per level going down, or about
> 2 million turns to win, rather than the 3 million of LCC1...
> http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9049
I don't think there will ever be 3.1.0. Development is now at 3.1.1 and
those dev-versions are less buggy than 3.1.0 beta, so I think next
stable release will be 3.1.1 or 3.1.2 (not sure how they number their
versions).
Timo Pietil�
Stefan O'Rear
> http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8974
>
> I won but got trash crown and hammer, not what I was hoping for...
> My next character will be a Dunedain priest.
This bug is fixed in 3.1.1.
Timo Pietilä
But there are also bunch of new ones. And there will be continuous
stream of those unless someone decides that no new features are
introduced and stable release will be made with this or that set of
features.
Unless 3.1.1 is ready soon we should have bug-free version of 3.1.0 for
people to download. That 3.1.0 beta which is downloadable from
rephial.org and has been there for half a year now contains few much
worse bugs than that one, like heavy curse being permanent in reality
which makes Calris useless to the people that don't know how to fix it
and recompile.
Timo Pietil�
Andi Sidwell
I hope to get out a 3.1.1 beta relatively soon; I just need to merge in
some of Eddie's ID changes. After that it'll basically be bugfixes,
tweaks, and cleanup before 3.1.2, which will be a non-beta. I imagine
3.1.3 will come out a couple of months after that which will be a stable
bugfix version.
HTH,
Andi
Timo Pietilä
It helps.
What bugs me is that rephial has got a very buggy beta-version there for
months now as a primary download without any bugfixes. As a primary
download I would always prefer latest stable release even if it is an
old one, and as a dev-version latest beta which gets bugfixes as soon as
bug is found (and for brave-minded nightly builds).
Whenever any version is released to download it should get bugfixes,
even if there is newer version coming as a beta.
That 3.1.1 has been changed so much from this 3.1.0 beta that it should
be 3.2.0 and bugfixes to that should be x.x.1 x.x.2 and so on.
Timo Pietil�
pete m
> >> Stefan O'Rear wrote:
This is exactly right. (Most software projects don't have only a
trunk, but keep the various releases as branches...and patch the
stable release with any significant bug fixes.)
pete m
EDIT:
3.1.1 as it stands has a lot of weaknesses that need to be patched
before it goes into wide release. 3.1.0 remains better balanced than
3.1.1 in a lot of ways. Until this changes, 3.1.0 should be
supported.
Timo Pietilä
> I hope to get out a 3.1.1 beta relatively soon; I just need to merge in
> some of Eddie's ID changes. After that it'll basically be bugfixes,
> tweaks, and cleanup before 3.1.2, which will be a non-beta. I imagine
> 3.1.3 will come out a couple of months after that which will be a stable
> bugfix version.
How about that chaos resist giving immunity to confusion effect? That
has been in list for some time now, and change is relatively simple:
just change lines with
if (!p_ptr->state.resist_confu)
to
if (!p_ptr->state.resist_confu && !p_ptr->state.resist_chaos)
For confusion effect.
Code for those seem to have changed somewhat, my programming skills are
not adequate enough to understand how to break lines like
if (inc_timed(TMD_CONFUSED, damroll(4, 5) + 10, TRUE))
to damage and effect (I don't understand the new, more complex, syntax),
but I believe for programmer that is not a problem.
Timo Pietil�
Magnate
>3.1.1 as it stands has a lot of weaknesses that need to be patched
>before it goes into wide release. 3.1.0 remains better balanced than
>3.1.1 in a lot of ways. Until this changes, 3.1.0 should be
>supported.
I don't know how many people would agree with that. Care to summarise what
are, in your view, the extant major weaknesses of 3.1.1 that need patching
before release?
CC
Timo Pietilä
I'd say bugs, tweaks and cleanup at least. You are releasing beta to
replace beta. "beta" automatically means that it contains bugs and not
fine-tuned new features which needs fixing.
I'd say that 3.0.9 is what you should be comparing to, not unsupported
and non-fixed 3.1.0 beta.
Main problem this far in 3.1.1 (and in 3.1.0) is lack of consumables,
especially stat-potions. Second problem is that deeper monsters don't
drop any better items than shallower monsters as long as both are native
to current dungeon depth. I would suggest that this average of dungeon
level and monster level is re-introduced, maybe with emphasis on dungeon
level ((2*dlvl)+mlvl)/3). Some monsters should still have huge drops
(GWoMC, some uniques). Fast fix to stat-potion problem is to include
potion of augmentation to good drops and make it less rare. Maybe add
potions that increase multiple stats at once.
Timo Pietil�
lcc
> Magnate wrote:
> > "pete m" <pmac...@yahoo.com> wrote
The main complaint I had with 3.1.0 beta is that shopkeepers never
changed, and did not stock good consumables...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
pete m
I agree. My list, of the top of my head:
1. Stat potions are not balanced
2. stat gains are 1 point at a time, so it takes forever to get to
18/100.
2a. stat gains are now linear, but stat effects are not.
3. Other consumables (various scrolls of banishment and ordinary
Potion of Healing are too rare.)
4. Bard is insanely overpowered for a mid-level character.
5. Ditto for Cubragol.
pete m
Appendix:
6. (How could I forget?) Unique drops, even excellent unique drops,
aren't worth spit.
Timo Pietilä
>> Magnate wrote:
>>> I don't know how many people would agree with that. Care to summarise
>>> what are, in your view, the extant major weaknesses of 3.1.1 that need
>>> patching before release?
> I agree. My list, of the top of my head:
> 4. Bard is insanely overpowered for a mid-level character.
> 5. Ditto for Cubragol.
Agree with Bard (too powerful, not insanely so), but not with Cubragol.
Branding ammo has been Cubragol feature for ever, and in fact it was
extra might xbow in old versions. Now that branding does not need to be
done by hand. Only problem is that now this firebrand applies also to
bolts of wounding, which makes those ammunition extremely powerful
(which applies to Bard too). I would rather remove those ammunition than
change Cubragol.
Cubragol depth and rarity should maybe be a little bit bigger.
Bolt of wounding 1d5 (+15,+20) firebranded and shot from Cubragol:
(1d5 + 20 + 14) * 3 * 3 = 333
Same with Bard against dragon:
(1d4 + 20 + 19) * 5 * 3 = 622.5
And not dragon:
(1d4 + 20 + 19) * 5 = 207.5
Sling of Buckland (x2) (+10,+15) (+2) against anything with those shots:
(1d3 + 20 + 15) * 4 * 3 = 444
Make that branded +13 shot: 1080
High level shooters just are very powerful.
Timo Pietil�
Magnate
> Main problem this far in 3.1.1 (and in 3.1.0) is lack of consumables,
> especially stat-potions. Second problem is that deeper monsters don't
> drop any better items than shallower monsters as long as both are native
> to current dungeon depth. I would suggest that this average of dungeon
> level and monster level is re-introduced, maybe with emphasis on dungeon
> level ((2*dlvl)+mlvl)/3). Some monsters should still have huge drops
> (GWoMC, some uniques). Fast fix to stat-potion problem is to include
> potion of augmentation to good drops and make it less rare. Maybe add
> potions that increase multiple stats at once.
"pete m" <pma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6aa4acb9-37ed-4e6b...@12g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>1. Stat potions are not balanced
>2. stat gains are 1 point at a time, so it takes forever to get to 18/100.
>2a. stat gains are now linear, but stat effects are not.
AFAIK there are plans to address the stat-gain-related issues. I don't know
whether that means different potions, or more potions, or whatever, but I'm
pretty sure something will be done here.
>3. Other consumables (various scrolls of banishment and ordinary Potion of
>Healing are too rare.)
>6. (How could I forget?) Unique drops, even excellent unique drops, aren't
>worth spit
I think these are related by the DROP_GOOD code, and could be addressed as
Timo suggests above. I don't know if Takkaria thinks this needs fixing
before 3.1.1 is released though - I think these are part of a longer-term
change to object generation.
>4. Bard is insanely overpowered for a mid-level character.
>5. Ditto for Cubragol.
These are in the same ballpark as "Pain + RoAcid" and aren't particularly
game-breaking. I have not found either item (or randarts of equivalent
rarity) in my last 50 or so games.
So I'm with you both on the stat gain issue, not bothered about powerful
artifacts, and I'm ambivalent about the consumables thing. Yes they are a
bit thin on the ground in 3.1.1, but I'm not sure I'd hold up a release for
this if it were my decision. It's tied up with the whole store
buyout/restock issue as well ...
CC
pete m
> So I'm with you both on the stat gain issue, not bothered about powerful
> artifacts, and I'm ambivalent about the consumables thing. Yes they are a
> bit thin on the ground in 3.1.1, but I'm not sure I'd hold up a release for
> this if it were my decision. It's tied up with the whole store
> buyout/restock issue as well ...
>
> CC
I didn't say that 3.1.1 wouldn't be balanced when it's released, I
said it's not balanced now. 3.1.0 doesn't have the same problems, or
at least not so much. Instead it has plain old bugs. The result that
it's been a long time since a non-beta was made available.
Eddie Grove
> Main problem this far in 3.1.1 (and in 3.1.0) is lack of consumables,
I agree with this, but I think it is the inevitable result of trying to deal
with too much junk through reduced drops. You cannot give every race/class
what it needs without inundating others with those items. E.g. warriors need
a certain amount of !rFire and !rCold, but every other class gets a spell for
that. I'd rather see big drops with the assumption that people squelch what
they don't want and that's how they see smaller drops.
I find the most important consumables are ?MB3, ?MB4, ?PB3, and ?PB4. Those
are "consumables" because they burn. I view the requests for better stores to
be a desire to mask broken dungeon drops using the town. I wonder if that is
heading in the wrong direction even though I support it.
I agree only partially about stat potions. I find enough in ironman games for
the most part, so they aren't that badly out of whack. The problem is that
while I think they show up enough on average, that is not enough.
Given a certain number of stat potions that are separated into 5 flavors, what
is important is not the average number per flavor but rather the minimum
number in any flavor that happens to be important. I enjoy the gradual
increase in stats in my current game, but only found 3 !INT by CL43/DL80, so
if I was playing a mage rather than a priest I would have died long ago.
But, if you drop enough potions so that the minimum is most likely to be high
enough, you are dropping too many of the non-minimum. I don't see a solution
short of something equivalent to replacing all stat potions with a more common
version of augmentation. That does not appear to be an improvement. Perhaps
an additional potion where you get to choose the stat with the same rarity as
the rest of the stat potions?
> Some monsters should still have huge drops (GWoMC, some uniques).
I killed Saruman deep, got nothing unsquelched. Probably he just dropped some
useless dungeon spellbook. That sure felt wrong.
Eddie
Wally the Grey
> But, if you drop enough potions so that the minimum is most likely to be high
> enough, you are dropping too many of the non-minimum. I don't see a solution
> short of something equivalent to replacing all stat potions with a more common
> version of augmentation. That does not appear to be an improvement. Perhaps
> an additional potion where you get to choose the stat with the same rarity as
> the rest of the stat potions?
Or one that raises your weakest stat? (In the event of a tie, it may
pick randomly.) Relatively uninteresting at first, since an early
character probably has high relevant stats and low charisma. :) Later,
though, it would help round out and complete stat gain.
dsti...@gmail.com
> High level shooters just are very powerful.
balanced,
I don't think that it makes the game fit with the Tolkein feel much.
From
my memory nearly all of the great Tolkein heros favored swords (in
some cases axes) over ranged weapons.
--
Daniel C. Stillwaggon
<dsti...@gmail.com>
Timo Pietilä
> On Jul 3, 3:38 am, Timo Pietil� <timo.piet...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>> High level shooters just are very powerful.
> While this would probably make the game seem more "real-world"
> balanced,
> I don't think that it makes the game fit with the Tolkein feel much.
> From
> my memory nearly all of the great Tolkein heros favored swords (in
> some cases axes) over ranged weapons.
Most, but not all. Beleg Cuthalion comes first to mind (owner of the
Belthronding). Obviously none of them used bows in melee-distance for
real life reasons, which is valid option in Angband.
Mythbusters did show one reason why bow and arrow don't work in close
combat in episode with ninja catching arrows. There one of the busters
shot arrow to the ninja-guy at distance of 20meters (IIRC), and this cut
the arrow in half when it was into air and then charged to the shooter.
No second shot were ever shot. Ninja with the sword were always next to
buster before he could shot second one.
In fact extra shot ability is the unrealistic one. In game all shooters
are equally fast and some of them with extra shot too fast. Bow should
be fastest of them, and shooting speed should depend of the skill of the
character, not the weapon. Extra might is more realistic.
Timo Pietil�
Ray
> From
> my memory nearly all of the great Tolkein heros favored swords (in
> some cases axes) over ranged weapons.
I have one word for you: Legolas.
Bear
Ray
> Mythbusters did show one reason why bow and arrow don't work in close
> combat in episode with ninja catching arrows. There one of the busters
> shot arrow to the ninja-guy at distance of 20meters (IIRC), and this cut
> the arrow in half when it was into air and then charged to the shooter.
> No second shot were ever shot. Ninja with the sword were always next to
> buster before he could shot second one.
This points up something rather important, IMO. I've long felt that
roguelike games could benefit both in realism and tactical depth by
re-timing.
It would be an interesting experiment to change the code so that on
average;
movement = 1 turn/100 energy
melee = 2 turns/200 energy
shooter use/spells = 3 turns/300 energy
And then try to rebalance. I think that on average you'd have to
have a lot more benefit from good armor or protective spells,
because "shoot anything that gets too close" wouldn't be fast
enough to prevent everything from getting to melee range. Magicians
would need much better protective/evasive spells, and more mana to
use for casting them. Spell damage for higher-level spells would
need to be escalated to about the same levels shooter damage with
higher-level shooters has already reached.
Bear
eddie...@hotmail.com
wrote:
I think by the time raising the minimum would become relevant, you
would be in augmentation depth. More importantly, you would basically
just store it at home and not use it before you die to lack of your
important stat, or manage the endgame without it. In either case, I
just don't see raising the minimum as being fun.
The one useful thing is that such a potion would increase the clamor
to get rid of charisma entirely. The worst thing IMO is that it would
be one more way of weakening warriors in comparison to the other
classes, since warriors have one more unimportant stat than everyone
else, except spellcasters in challenge games who forgo melee.
Eddie