Poll: Offer of Patches for Angband, Variants
Leon Marrick
I'm taking a little break from Sangband coding to fulfill promises
I made to various people. One of them is to offer a selection of
patches to interested parties. None of these patches are yet ready;
community interest will decide those that get worked on, and the order
in which they appear.
Possible patches:
1. ToME savefile handling, either as modified in Sangband or in the
original, your choice. This is one of the most important UI
improvements in recent years, and makes running more than one character
so very much more fun. No serious variant can be without it.
2. Oangband quiver code. Makes small stacks and artifact ammo
genuinely worthwhile; recent enhancements by Bahman Rabii allow you to
store a variety of throwing weapons as well. Does to non-magical
missile combat what wand/rod/staff stacking did for magical devices.
3. Sangband pickup code. One round of tweaks after another have made
it a uniquely powerful tool for handling large quantities of objects and
treasure. Greatly reduces player frustration at dealing with "endless
piles of crap". If your users are howling, get this code and make 'em
happy.
4. Sangband basic spell code. My spell code seems to have bred like
bunnies; I see ancient and embarrassingly inferior versions all over the
place. If you want more cool spells, more varied projections, fairer
treatment of monsters and the character, and more accurate angular math
and projection paths, then request this patch.
5. Ancient Moria/Angband messages and text strings. Ben Harrison had a
wonderful ability to write clean code, but he also flushed away a few
things that should have stayed. If you want real Green Glutton ghost
attacks, more colorful stat-loss, blindness and haggling messages, and
artifact activations that sound like you're using something really
special, insist on the Moria/Angband patch. Additional lost Moria/early
Angband coolness available on request.
6. Sangband store code. There are two ways currently on offer to deal
with shopkeepers: 1) purge all the interesting bits like Angband has
over the last 10 years, or 2) bring back the Koeneke coolness. If you
like the sound of #2, get this patch. Also reduces messages when buying
and selling. Patch will not include the special "town monster" AI or
improving store stocks.
7. Eric Bock's treasure trove. If you don't know what Eric Bock gave
us, I feel sorry for you. In a series of variants, he unleashed monster
pain messages, spell colors, maze rooms, symmetrical pillared rooms,
run-length encoding of vaults, and a lot more. You may already have
some of these things; gotta gettem all.
8. Player ghosts. Would you believe that there are newbies out there
who have never experienced the coolness of player ghosts? This game is
going to the DOGS. So, which is it to be -- early Angband, slimmed-down
Oangband, or a variant of your choice?
9. A complete set of documentation and user manual for Angband. I
wrote it, I sent it to Robert Ruehlmann, and not a blessed thing ever
came of it. Well, if you think Oangband or Sangband docs are non-sucky,
Angband's docs can be non-sucky too.
10. Pick a patch, any patch. The source variant must either 1) be not
actively maintained or 2) Oangband, or 3) Sangband. The code or text
must be reasonably compact, and it must not form the "essence" of a
variant. So PsiAngband's psionic magic ain't on offer - you want it,
get it yourself.
--
S(all) W/X H+ D c+ f? PV++ s? d- C S !I? !So? RQ V+ F:<<too much data!>>
http://www.harris.ukgateway.net/angband/code.html
Andrew Doull
> I'm taking a little break from Sangband coding to fulfill promises
> I made to various people. One of them is to offer a selection of
> patches to interested parties. None of these patches are yet ready;
> community interest will decide those that get worked on, and the order
> in which they appear.
I'd like to take advantage of these for Unangband, but the code base is no way
near stable at the moment - last time I compiled, monsters were walking through
walls, and I'm working on quest code at the moment, so don't want to
particularly have to wrap my head around a different part of the code base.
My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
Thirdly, what other variants out there are in active development at the moment,
that could take advantage of this?
I'd like to be controversial, and suggest that you spend the additional time on
developing Sangband further - I'm hugely impressed in the direction you're
taking it, and I think attempting to try and push patches onto another variant
may not be the most effective use of your time. Your attention to detail is
particularly inspiring - Sangband hasn't left any part of the Angband code base
untouched.
The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
1. A wilderness (No one has done wilderness right, and plenty of people have
tried, but I'm sure you'd come up with an interesting and enjoyable solution).
2. The Hengband persistent level code
3. Friendly monsters / player summoned monsters
4. The Hengband persistent level code
5. Graphics
6. The Hengband persistent level code
7. Mouse interaction
8. The Hengband persistent level code
9. A _real_ fix for the problem of object drops. Sangband in some ways makes
the problem worse, by requiring that you invest valuable experience points to
make half the objects you find useful. Make every object useful to every
character. Allow the dangerous potions to coat weapons or arrows / bolts. Bring
back object fennelling. Make monster drops fixed, so that every monster drops
exactly the same objects, and only have four monster races appear on each
level. Make objects that you have not invested any relevent skills in convert
to money automatically when you pick them up.
10. The Hengband persistent level code
11. A version 1.0 release
Andrew
--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Jeff Greene
"Leon Marrick" <no...@invalid.org> wrote in message news:FDa2f.3744$5l....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> Possible patches:
>
> 1. ToME savefile handling, either as modified in Sangband or in the
> original, your choice. This is one of the most important UI
> improvements in recent years, and makes running more than one character
> so very much more fun. No serious variant can be without it.
I am not familiar with this. What is the change?
> 4. Sangband basic spell code. My spell code seems to have bred like
> bunnies; I see ancient and embarrassingly inferior versions all over the
> place. If you want more cool spells, more varied projections, fairer
> treatment of monsters and the character, and more accurate angular math
> and projection paths, then request this patch.
I had planed to completely re-do the NPP spell system for 050, to take advantage of all the new types of projections. I already have all the Sangband project codes, at least from Sangband beta 13, when I did 4gai. What else is there to this?
>
> 9. A complete set of documentation and user manual for Angband. I
> wrote it, I sent it to Robert Ruehlmann, and not a blessed thing ever
> came of it. Well, if you think Oangband or Sangband docs are non-sucky,
> Angband's docs can be non-sucky too.
That was a shame it didn't get added. Although it wasn't your inspiration for making the helpfiles, they did go into NPP. Robert did say he was going to put it in Angband, he just wanted to read it first. But, that was over a year and two releases ago.
>
> 10. Pick a patch, any patch. The source variant must either 1) be not
> actively maintained or 2) Oangband, or 3) Sangband. The code or text
> must be reasonably compact, and it must not form the "essence" of a
> variant. So PsiAngband's psionic magic ain't on offer - you want it,
> get it yourself.
>
Pretty much everything else we have already used in NPP, at least partially or fully (quiver code is already implemented for NPP.050).
The one thing I did in NPP with 4gai that makes a major difference is separate flow codes for monsters who can open or bash down doors as opposed to monsters who cannot. That really makes a difference in how the monsters find the player. If you are interested I will do a patch for you. Since the flow code for monsters who can't open doors tend to be updated either right before or after the player enters a command, it doesn't affect game speed to any noticeable degree.
-Jeff
Julian Lighton
Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
>The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
>Bring back object fennelling.
Fenneling is fundamentally broken - I don't think it is possible to
avoid it being stupidly powerful without making it useless.
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
/* You are not expected to understand this. */
Wil Hunt
> In article <dibiop$g0a$1...@news.vol.cz>,
> Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
>>The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
>
> [...]
>
>>Bring back object fennelling.
>
>
> Fenneling is fundamentally broken - I don't think it is possible to
> avoid it being stupidly powerful without making it useless.
>
>
What is fennelling/fenneling? I was unable to find anything on
dictionary.com.
--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.
Andrew Doull
> In article ,
> Andrew Doull wrote:
> >On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick wrote:
> >The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
> [...]
> >Bring back object fennelling.
>
> Fenneling is fundamentally broken - I don't think it is possible to
> avoid it being stupidly powerful without making it useless.
Of course it is. You might notice some tongue in cheekness in the list I was
proposing... however, I think despite all that Leon has done with Sangband, he
has perhaps not been radical enough in this area.
Nick
> 1. A wilderness (No one has done wilderness right, and plenty of people have
> tried, but I'm sure you'd come up with an interesting and enjoyable solution).
I'm currrently working on (well, not working on, but I think my meaning is clear
:) a variant of Oangband which will include a large and structured, but random,
wilderness. Also multiple towns and dungeons. It's a little (but only a
little) like Un. I'd be interested in anyone else's take on wilderness, too
(although I think I'm probably too far along to change mine now).
Nick.
Leon Marrick
> "Leon Marrick" <no...@invalid.org> wrote in message news:FDa2f.3744$5l....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>> Possible patches:
>>
>> 1. ToME savefile handling, either as modified in Sangband or in the
>> original, your choice. This is one of the most important UI
>> improvements in recent years, and makes running more than one character
>> so very much more fun. No serious variant can be without it.
>
> I am not familiar with this. What is the change?
The best way to answer that question is to play ToME (or Sangband,
doesn't matter), and save multiple characters (under different names).
You then get a menu to choose among them. If you want to import a
character, you move the file in and type the filename. This code has
been extended to allow interactive character loading in S, and lots of
other opportunities await.
Once a player gets used to ToME's savefile system, it's hard for
him to put up with the old system - so I've been told more than once.
Of all the patches on offer, this I'd especially like to draw to
people's attention.
>> 4. Sangband basic spell code. (snip)
>
> I had planed to completely re-do the NPP spell system for 050, to take advantage of all the new types of projections. I already have all the Sangband project codes, at least from Sangband beta 13, when I did 4gai. What else is there to this?
See, this is the problem. Ancient and inferior versions. Between
beta 13 and 19 all sorts of things have changed: the code is now more
powerful, efficient, and robust. However, you can be equally certain
that it will keep evolving, so any patch will have a limited shelf-life...
> The one thing I did in NPP with 4gai that makes a major difference is separate flow codes for monsters who can open or bash down doors as opposed to monsters who cannot. That really makes a difference in how the monsters find the player. If you are interested I will do a patch for you. Since the flow code for monsters who can't open doors tend to be updated either right before or after the player enters a command, it doesn't affect game speed to any noticeable degree.
I have looked over your important - indeed to some monsters
fundamental - changes very carefully. While I'm not yet prepared to
migrate either this or nearby targeting into Sangband, rest assured that
lots of other NPP improvements have already gotten nicked (see the
Sangband changes list). Thank you for making them available!
Leon Marrick
> What is fennelling/fenneling? I was unable to find anything on
> dictionary.com.
Ah, fennelling. Mmm, mmm, mmm sweet. Take my Ring of Combat (+10,
+10), and my Ring of Strength (+3). We have a Ring of Combat (+10, +10)
(+3 to strength).
"I'd like to add a little chaos resist to that order, please." <<fennel
ring of Chaos Resistance>>
We have a Ring of Combat (+10, +10) (+3 to strength) (resChaos).
And, while we're at it, you just can't have too many sustains." <<fennel
ring of Sustain Body>>
We have a Ring of Combat (+10, +20) (+3 to strength) (resChaos) (sust
STR, DEX, CON).
And so on. You get the idea ... at least you get the idea for the
old-style direct fennelling that long made Sangband a byword. Sangband
still has a very indirect and subtle form of fennelling, cunningly
enough disguised that most people seem not to know it by its true name.
Instead, they call it "object forging with essences".
magnate
> My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
> implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
Unless Leon volunteers to become the new maintainer, I don't think he
can give such guarantees.
> The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
>
> 1. A wilderness (No one has done wilderness right, and plenty of people have
> tried, but I'm sure you'd come up with an interesting and enjoyable solution).
This is interesting, especially as your #1 choice - to me the game of
Angband is about a single dungeon underneath a single town. The term
"wilderness" immediately starts me thinking about a different game
(Omega, maybe). I agree that any wildnerness of Leon's would be
interesting.
> 2. The Hengband persistent level code
I've always been curious about persistent levels, but it makes the game
terrifyingly finite. I can't really see much advantage except as a safe
place to dump stuff (and even then it might get scavenged by new
denizens and need to be recovered). Is there a real gameplay advantage
to this?
> 3. Friendly monsters / player summoned monsters
This needs very careful handling - most *bands are balanced on the
basis that the player is alone and everything else attacks him. If you
start allowing friendly summons, or friendly encountered monsters, the
balance needs re-working quite dramatically.
> 5. Graphics
Ugh. No. This, again, is a totally different game - even more so than
"wilderness". Angband just doesn't gave graphics (with apologies to
Messrs. Gervais and Bolt).
> 7. Mouse interaction
Again, no. Why is it necessary? You need to hover over the keyboard for
any one of the zillions of commands, so how will coding mouse support
(which is probably hideous and unportable) help players??
> 9. A _real_ fix for the problem of object drops. Sangband in some ways makes
> the problem worse, by requiring that you invest valuable experience points to
> make half the objects you find useful. Make every object useful to every
> character. Allow the dangerous potions to coat weapons or arrows / bolts. Bring
> back object fennelling. Make monster drops fixed, so that every monster drops
> exactly the same objects, and only have four monster races appear on each
> level. Make objects that you have not invested any relevent skills in convert
> to money automatically when you pick them up.
While I don't agree with most of this paragraph, we have at last found
a common wish. Inventory space in S is harder to manage than any other
variant I have played, precisely because of the number of useful
objects. I admire Leon's persistent opposition to the concept of
squelching, and enjoy his efforts at making things useful. I think
"make every object useful to every character" is truly flawed though,
because it would detract from the joy of the fact that these characters
are *different*.
My own list would be as follows (not in any particular order):
1. Allow forging in the dungeon - I can't see any reason to force you
to lug stuff back to town. If ironmen can do it, everyone can do it.
2. Expand forging to allow the sewing of cloaks, the manufacture of
light sources, and the creation of magic devices. Once expanded to
allow the player to create almost any object, you can then begin to
restrict what properties can be available to which types of objects.
For example, forging a lantern which reveals invisible creatures should
be relatively easy, but forging one which boosts its wielder's strength
should be extremely hard. Allow specific objects (esp. potions and
scrolls, maybe wands/staves/rods/rings) to contribute to a forging
effort to make obtainable a specific property - but without the
certainty of fennelling.
3. Separate fully the concepts of "armour" and "dodging". So AC is
purely about the amount of damage that can be *absorbed* (either
physically or magically) by what you're wearing, and rely on your
dodging ability to dodge attacks. Allow items which magically enhance
dodging (boots, obviously, but also others).
4. Separate hp into physical energy and bodily health. This means a
proper critical hit system where most hits will only drain a
character's energy (wearing him down), and only a few will actually
physically damage his body. But where energy recovers very quickly
(like mana, maybe even faster), bodily wounds are extremely slow to
recover without magical assistance. Warrior types would have only 2-3x
the bodily health of mage-types, but up to 10x the energy. The
interplay between this & 3 above is interesting - it would take a small
amount of energy to dodge the more powerful blows, but this would be a
small price to pay for avoiding bodily damage.
Sorry, this has degenerated into a wishlist and is no longer just about
making objects useful.
5. More development of traps. Allow proficient burglars to set traps
with fewer than 3 actions, and to fill traps with more than one type of
item (so that a canny monster might dodge one but not all). Allow
oath-burglars to set special uber-traps not available to amateurs - but
don't limit other classes to 30 burglary.
6. The ability to play with more than one magic realm. Obviously piety
and darkness remain mutually exclusive, but at high spellcasting skill
you should be able to choose a secondary realm and be able to cast a
selection of its spells, perhaps chosen by you. So a paladin could take
some buff spells from nature, a wizard or druid could dabble in
necromancy, etc.
Enough. I'm sure Leon has plenty to do without reading any more of
this. Not many ideas from me about improving inventory management
though. Sorry.
> 11. A version 1.0 release
Nah, I'm quite looking forward to Sangband-0.9.9beta99
CC
Andrew Doull
Did you see my post in rgrd about using Voronoi diagrams to generate a
structured wilderness?
My biggest criticism of wilderness code is that it is far too easy to run into
massively out of depth monsters in the wilderness. And most people treat it as
a feature, rather than a problem ("Then you take the potion of detonations to
the area where the hydra hang out...")
Andrew Doull
> Andrew Doull wrote:
> > My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
> > implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
>
> Unless Leon volunteers to become the new maintainer, I don't think he
> can give such guarantees.
>
> > The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
> >
> > 2. The Hengband persistent level code
>
> I've always been curious about persistent levels, but it makes the game
> terrifyingly finite. I can't really see much advantage except as a safe
> place to dump stuff (and even then it might get scavenged by new
> denizens and need to be recovered). Is there a real gameplay advantage
> to this?
There is one major gameplay advantage: No stair scumming ever again.
The Hengband solution clears all the persistent levels when you get back to
town, either via recall or stairs, so you still get infinite levels, and can't
keep going back to the shops for additional healing potions whilst you're
clearing that vault.
Its a very smart solution...
R. Dan Henry
wrote:
>In article <dibiop$g0a$1...@news.vol.cz>,
>Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
>>The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
>[...]
>>Bring back object fennelling.
>
>Fenneling is fundamentally broken - I don't think it is possible to
>avoid it being stupidly powerful without making it useless.
But fenneling was the coolest thing in the old Sangband and I won't
consider the new version *real* Sangband until fenneling is back.
--
R. Dan Henry
danh...@inreach.com
Dwarf Electrician
have never won... ;)
Leon Marrick wrote:
>
> I'm taking a little break from Sangband coding to fulfill promises
> I made to various people. One of them is to offer a selection of
> patches to interested parties. None of these patches are yet ready;
> community interest will decide those that get worked on, and the order
> in which they appear.
>
>
> Possible patches:
>
> 1. ToME savefile handling, either as modified in Sangband or in the
> original, your choice. This is one of the most important UI
> improvements in recent years, and makes running more than one character
> so very much more fun. No serious variant can be without it.
I have played ToME for most of the past 2 years and endorse the
multi-character UI.
>
> 2. Oangband quiver code. Makes small stacks and artifact ammo
> genuinely worthwhile; recent enhancements by Bahman Rabii allow you to
> store a variety of throwing weapons as well. Does to non-magical
> missile combat what wand/rod/staff stacking did for magical devices.
>
I was about to post a question to the newsgroup about this possibility.
The most important thing that I would like to see in ToME is a better
way to handle arrows, I just didn't know how to change it. Your
description for the quiver patch seems to be the answer.
As a non-coder, how would I best add this patch to a Windows ToME
implementation?
Thanks for listening
DE
pete mack
magnate wrote:
> Andrew Doull wrote:
> > My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
> > implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
>
>
> Again, no. Why is it necessary? You need to hover over the keyboard for
> any one of the zillions of commands, so how will coding mouse support
> (which is probably hideous and unportable) help players??
>
There aren't many places where the mouse would help, but I know a few:
* Targeting monsters with the mouse.
* Examining things on the extended map with the mouse.
* Selecting text to cut&paste into a newsgroup conversation.
* Menu navigation, in particular interactions with 'help' code.
Pia Kraft
>> 2. The Hengband persistent level code
>
> I've always been curious about persistent levels, but it makes the game
> terrifyingly finite.
Which isn't a bad thing at all. Fully persistent dungeons makes scumming for
item x at depth y pointless. It forces you to go on, which keeps the game
interesting. Is the 21th troll pit on 1900' really that exciting? If you
want variety just add different dungeons and/or side branches to the main
dungeon.
Of course I realize that such an approach won't be very popular in the
community and won't happen anytime soon.
> I can't really see much advantage except as a safe
> place to dump stuff (and even then it might get scavenged by new
> denizens and need to be recovered). Is there a real gameplay advantage
> to this?
Hengband implements semi-persistent dungeons which doesn't prevent scumming
at all. But there's one obvious advantage in the very early stage of the
game: you won't need a WoR that badly. Climbing up from 500' takes less
than a minute. Allows for diving deeper faster.
Netbrian
> 1. ToME savefile handling, either as modified in Sangband or in the
> original, your choice. This is one of the most important UI
> improvements in recent years, and makes running more than one character
> so very much more fun. No serious variant can be without it.
>
> 2. Oangband quiver code. Makes small stacks and artifact ammo
> genuinely worthwhile; recent enhancements by Bahman Rabii allow you to
> store a variety of throwing weapons as well. Does to non-magical
> missile combat what wand/rod/staff stacking did for magical devices.
>
> 3. Sangband pickup code. One round of tweaks after another have made
> it a uniquely powerful tool for handling large quantities of objects and
> treasure. Greatly reduces player frustration at dealing with "endless
> piles of crap". If your users are howling, get this code and make 'em
> happy.
Any of these would be absolutely wonderful, and make the game far more
enjoyable. While Angband is a fanastic game, I'm of the opinion that there is
far more room for improvement on the usability side, possibly things that might
have a higher priority than the gameplay side.
BTW, for #3, would it be possible to add a "squelch stack" option to the stack
menus?
> 9. A complete set of documentation and user manual for Angband. I
> wrote it, I sent it to Robert Ruehlmann, and not a blessed thing ever
> came of it. Well, if you think Oangband or Sangband docs are non-sucky,
> Angband's docs can be non-sucky too.
I like this too.
> 10. Pick a patch, any patch. The source variant must either 1) be not
> actively maintained or 2) Oangband, or 3) Sangband. The code or text
> must be reasonably compact, and it must not form the "essence" of a
> variant. So PsiAngband's psionic magic ain't on offer - you want it,
> get it yourself.
1. Hengband-style semi-persistant dungeons., as other people have mentioned.
2. Universal use command -- I think such a command would make Angband more
accessible to a larger number of players. At the moment, the current number of
commands is rather absurd.
3. Either store services, or a set of objects that can always be bought, like
Cure Critical Wounds, Food Rations, Oil, basic ammo, etc.
4. OAngband (I think)'s "shafts" that transport people down 100 feet at a time,
rather than the standard fifty.
Thank you very much for your time!
VALIS
Leon Marrick <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
> >> 4. Sangband basic spell code. (snip)
> >
> > I had planed to completely re-do the NPP spell system for 050, to take
> > advantage of all the new types of projections. I already have all the
> > Sangband project codes, at least from Sangband beta 13, when I did 4gai.
> > What else is there to this?
>
> See, this is the problem. Ancient and inferior versions. Between
> beta 13 and 19 all sorts of things have changed: the code is now more
> powerful, efficient, and robust. However, you can be equally certain
> that it will keep evolving, so any patch will have a limited shelf-life...
Both Jeff and I will need a copy of this.
-Campbell
Jeff Greene
"VALIS" <va...@oook.cz> wrote in message news:valis-525F39....@news.isp.giganews.com...
Leon posted the link in another thread. Here.
http://www.runegold.org/sangband/files/sang-src-099-r18.zip
-Jeff
camlost
magnate wrote:
>
> 2. Expand forging to allow the sewing of cloaks, the manufacture of
> light sources, and the creation of magic devices. Once expanded to
> allow the player to create almost any object, you can then begin to
> restrict what properties can be available to which types of objects.
> For example, forging a lantern which reveals invisible creatures should
> be relatively easy, but forging one which boosts its wielder's strength
> should be extremely hard. Allow specific objects (esp. potions and
> scrolls, maybe wands/staves/rods/rings) to contribute to a forging
> effort to make obtainable a specific property - but without the
> certainty of fennelling.
>
I may write something along these lines, at least tweaking existing
costs to include variable costs based on whether something is a weapon,
armor, helm, etc. Currently there are some types of each object which
will grant a set of attributes, but other than that, no overall
increased chance of RES_SOUND on helms (which decreasing the cost would
effect), and other similar things. If I do a good enough job, maybe
it'll be incorporated into beta 20.
I think there's a certain reluctance to allow for forging of any and all
kinds of objects, especially ones that occupy ring slots and light
source slots. They could quickly become broken. Fennelling allowed you
to *add* a property to a given item, which is significantly more
powerful than forging an item from scratch. Making it so you can forge
anything also detracts from the joy at finding your first artifact
cloak, or the phial (an excellent item, by the way).
I'm somewhat interested in being able to make more potent rings and
amulets (amulets could really use a boost in Sang, IMO), but again, they
can easily become out of hand.
> 6. The ability to play with more than one magic realm. Obviously piety
> and darkness remain mutually exclusive, but at high spellcasting skill
> you should be able to choose a secondary realm and be able to cast a
> selection of its spells, perhaps chosen by you. So a paladin could take
> some buff spells from nature, a wizard or druid could dabble in
> necromancy, etc.
>
Spellcasting is already really good. Most of the realms have a copious
selection of spells, but none of them have all the utility spells.
Inevitably, you would always choose those utility spells denied you in
your casting class. There might be some balance in letting you "dabble"
in two casting classes, but never truly master either.
VALIS
"Jeff Greene" <nppan...@spam.spam.spam.spam> wrote:
He's talking about writing a patch though, right? I may just be
confused, but wouldn't it be easier to diff from the patch (like
demoband)?
If I were going to use the source, wouldn't I just diff from r19? Again,
This is the first *band related stuff I've talked about in six weeks or
so, and I may be confused. :-)
> -Jeff
-Campbell
p.s. Nice to see you! *waves*
Joshua Rodman
Mouse comments:
When I played AngbandTK, I used the mouse while learning the commands
still, since they were in pulldown menus, demarked with the letter that
activates them.
Later, I found I pretty much only used the mouse to scroll the display
by clicking on the 'overhead view', and for mouse-overing monsters to
see their name and recall (in a subwindow). It was a win when looking
at items from a potion of enlightenment, or similar.
I pretty much never use the angband built-in help, I just use grep and
vi in the help directory, because I often don't know what item the
information is stored in. An index or similar would solve this, but
would be hard to compile.
-josh
--
Grim. Grom. Grümmer.
Andrew Doull
> On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick wrote:
>
> 2. Universal use command -- I think such a command would make Angband more
> accessible to a larger number of players. At the moment, the current number of
> commands is rather absurd.
I had a play with this and think I came up with a good solution for universal
use.
If you inscribe an object with %x where x is the command, then use the command
%, and pick an object, you will instead do x to that object.
e.g. Inscribe your potions with %q, scrolls with %r, wands with %a.
% and choose a potion to quaff it, % and choose a scroll to read it, % and
choose a wand to aim it.
However, if you haven't inscribed an object with %, either a) you can't choose
it, or b) it automatically assigns an action based on a tval - depending on a
user interface option. Default to b so that new users can 'get' it...
Its easy to code as well, as you just mess with the repeat function. This saves
you from having to write a second switch statement which essentially duplicates
the one already in dungeon.c.
Andrew Doull
<jro...@duckerDOTorg.fake.domain.example.com> wrote:
> On 2005-10-10, pete mack wrote:
> >
> > magnate wrote:
> >> Andrew Doull wrote:
> >> > My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
> >> > implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
> >>
> >> > 7. Mouse interaction
> >>
> >> Again, no. Why is it necessary? You need to hover over the keyboard for
> >> any one of the zillions of commands, so how will coding mouse support
> >> (which is probably hideous and unportable) help players??
> >>
> >
> > There aren't many places where the mouse would help, but I know a few:
> > * Targeting monsters with the mouse.
> > * Examining things on the extended map with the mouse.
> > * Selecting text to cut&paste into a newsgroup conversation.
> > * Menu navigation, in particular interactions with 'help' code.
>
> Mouse comments:
>
> When I played AngbandTK, I used the mouse while learning the commands
> still, since they were in pulldown menus, demarked with the letter that
> activates them.
>
> Later, I found I pretty much only used the mouse to scroll the display
> by clicking on the 'overhead view', and for mouse-overing monsters to
> see their name and recall (in a subwindow). It was a win when looking
> at items from a potion of enlightenment, or similar.
And thats one of my two basic arguments for using a mouse. Its a lot easier for
beginners to learn.
My other is that its faster for more experienced people playing, but that didn't
go down too well last time. (Don't start that thread again, search google
groups).
Andrew Doull
<jro...@duckerDOTorg.fake.domain.example.com> wrote:
> On 2005-10-10, pete mack wrote:
> >
> > magnate wrote:
> >> Andrew Doull wrote:
> >> > My next question is, do you have any guarantees that anything will get
> >> > implemented in Angband, if you do develop a patch?
> >>
> >> > 7. Mouse interaction
> >>
> >> Again, no. Why is it necessary? You need to hover over the keyboard for
> >> any one of the zillions of commands, so how will coding mouse support
> >> (which is probably hideous and unportable) help players??
> >>
> >
> > There aren't many places where the mouse would help, but I know a few:
> > * Targeting monsters with the mouse.
> > * Examining things on the extended map with the mouse.
> > * Selecting text to cut&paste into a newsgroup conversation.
> > * Menu navigation, in particular interactions with 'help' code.
>
> Mouse comments:
>
> When I played AngbandTK, I used the mouse while learning the commands
> still, since they were in pulldown menus, demarked with the letter that
> activates them.
>
> Later, I found I pretty much only used the mouse to scroll the display
> by clicking on the 'overhead view', and for mouse-overing monsters to
> see their name and recall (in a subwindow). It was a win when looking
> at items from a potion of enlightenment, or similar.
And thats one of my two basic arguments for using a mouse. Its a lot easier for
beginners to learn.
My other is that its faster for more experienced people playing, but that didn't
go down too well last time. (Don't start that thread again, search google
grops).
Mondkalb
Andrew Doull schrieb:
Same for me long ago in the late 80s, playing Moria on the Amiga. The
Menüs with the Command letters made it much easier to play the game
and start without learning the commands before.
Antony Sidwell
Andrew Doull <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2005-10-11 07:12:51, Joshua Rodman
> <jro...@duckerDOTorg.fake.domain.example.com> wrote:
>
> > Mouse comments:
> >
> > When I played AngbandTK, I used the mouse while learning the commands
> > still, since they were in pulldown menus, demarked with the letter that
> > activates them.
> >
> > Later, I found I pretty much only used the mouse to scroll the display
> > by clicking on the 'overhead view', and for mouse-overing monsters to
> > see their name and recall (in a subwindow). It was a win when looking
> > at items from a potion of enlightenment, or similar.
>
> And thats one of my two basic arguments for using a mouse. Its a lot
> easier for beginners to learn.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing extra mousy features for their
own sake (except with my porting hat on, of course, because they're
bound to make the platform-specific code more complicated). However I
don't think you need a mouse to make the game easier for beginners to
pick up - the movement system is pretty intuitive already, as is combat
and entering shops (obviously, as they use the movement interface).
I think the main obstacle when starting to play is finding the right
command to use when you don't know what you're looking for, as solved by
the pulldown menus mentioned in AngbandTK. This is addressed very well by
the in-game menu system in Steamband (I'm assuming it originated there,
I've not noticed it in other variants I've played, anyway). Then all you
need to get started is the movement keys and Enter, and you can pick up
the specific commands as you go along, after finding them in the menu.
Improved in-game help would probably help as well, so you could learn
about commands as you browsed through them, and throw in the "beginner's
guide" style of help from ToME (or sCth?) which helps you through those
difficult first steps, and I think you've made it decidedly easier
to start playing without making me code any mouse stuff for the RISC OS
ports. :)
--
Antony Sidwell.
VALIS
Antony Sidwell <aj...@despammed.com> wrote:
> I think the main obstacle when starting to play is finding the right
> command to use when you don't know what you're looking for, as solved by
> the pulldown menus mentioned in AngbandTK. This is addressed very well by
> the in-game menu system in Steamband (I'm assuming it originated there,
> I've not noticed it in other variants I've played, anyway). Then all you
> need to get started is the movement keys and Enter, and you can pick up
> the specific commands as you go along, after finding them in the menu.
I stole it from Hengband, natch.
-Campbell
Otto Martin
>>1. A wilderness (No one has done wilderness right, and plenty of
>>people have tried, but I'm sure you'd come up with an interesting and
>>enjoyable solution).
I like the Z wilderness in some ways, but I'll admit it too is lacking.
And I wouldn't mind seeing Leon's wilderness either. :-)
>> 2. The Hengband persistent level code
From what I've read, it seems like a good idea.
>>Make every object useful to every character.
>I think "make every object useful to every character" is truly flawed
>though, because it would detract from the joy of the fact that these
>characters are *different*.
Yeah. I think the goal should be "make every object useful to some
character in some situation". Potions and rings of Weakness etc. are an
example of something that isn't.
>1. Allow forging in the dungeon - I can't see any reason to force you
>to lug stuff back to town. If ironmen can do it, everyone can do it.
I think forging should only be allowed on a special "Anvil" tile or
something like that. There would be one in the town, and you could find
them in the dungeon sometimes. (With a greater chance if you're playing
ironman.)
>3. Separate fully the concepts of "armour" and "dodging".
I'd really like to see this as well, but it also requires major
balancing and adding a stat to all the monsters as well...
>>11. A version 1.0 release
>Nah, I'm quite looking forward to Sangband-0.9.9beta99
Heh. I wonder what Sangband 1.1 is supposed to have? :-)
Otto Martin - no playing angband during this school project, I'm afraid...
--
"God - who are you really? What's your name - Jehovah? Yahweh? Allah?
Are you Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Muslim? Hindu? What are you?"
http://sinfest.net/d/20050925.html "Labels..."
Draco18s
says...
> Wil Hunt wrote:
>
> > What is fennelling/fenneling? I was unable to find anything on
> > dictionary.com.
>
> Ah, fennelling. Mmm, mmm, mmm sweet.
<snip>
> And so on. You get the idea ... at least you get the idea for the
> old-style direct fennelling that long made Sangband a byword. Sangband
> still has a very indirect and subtle form of fennelling, cunningly
> enough disguised that most people seem not to know it by its true name.
> Instead, they call it "object forging with essences".
I suppose a way to make it so that it isn't über-powerful while at the same
time making it useless is that you limit the number of bonuses a single item
can have. Either the way D&D does it (max of +10 equivalent) or just by
saying that there can't be more than X effects. If X is three, then you
could only have a Ring of Combat (+10,+10) (+3 to strength) (resChaos) and
no more.
If it was a la D&D, then as most items can't get above a +20, then that
would be the limit (I.E. Ring of Accuracy (+10) (+3 to strength) (+7 AC); 10
+3+7 = 20). Sustains and resistances would need an equivalent plus, or
you'd end up endlessly stacking them.
*Shrugs*
--
Draco18s
DC2.Dw Gm L- W- T Phvwalt Sks Cag^ Bco|# A- Fr Nu M--- O H+ $ Fo R+++ Ac+ J+
S+ I-# V++ Q++ Tc+++[C++]/Tc--- E+
"Yum!" |> v-v-v-v |>
| , , .|. | n | .|.
'. |_/| | |'''''''''''| | \
(q p),-| | HERSHEY'S | |'-._ ))
/_(/ | | CHO|"|LIT | | ) '-.___//
---W"W----'-'----'-'----'-'----------'--------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Draco18s
> On 2005-10-10 02:05:48, Nick <nckmc...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> My biggest criticism of wilderness code is that it is far too easy to run into
> massively out of depth monsters in the wilderness. And most people treat it as
> a feature, rather than a problem ("Then you take the potion of detonations to
> the area where the hydra hang out...")
I recently had an idea (or two) on that problem.
Either:
1) make it so that you *can't* go the wrong way and run into ood monsters to
soon, or
2) town-level npc found near town entrance(s) who "gives directions." I.E.
"You don't look to strong, you might not want to head west. North is a
better option for you."
#1 is the fool-proof but strict way of keeping newbs alive, but frustrates
high-level (possibly have sections open up to prevent this problem) or
veteran players who WANT to risk death. #2 would have its own set of
problems (need to have friendly npcs and the ability to Chat or it pops up
upon leaving a town and gets annoying).
Draco18s
chr...@dbass.demon.co.uk says...
> 2. Expand forging to allow the sewing of cloaks, the manufacture of
> light sources, and the creation of magic devices. Once expanded to
> allow the player to create almost any object, you can then begin to
> restrict what properties can be available to which types of objects.
> For example, forging a lantern which reveals invisible creatures should
> be relatively easy, but forging one which boosts its wielder's strength
> should be extremely hard. Allow specific objects (esp. potions and
> scrolls, maybe wands/staves/rods/rings) to contribute to a forging
> effort to make obtainable a specific property - but without the
> certainty of fennelling.
I had been thinking about if something like this existed myself. Finding
scrolls that instead of enchanting an item's AC/to-hit/to-dmg bonus it would
instead enchant for a (possibly random) other effect. On a weapon to-AC
would be a possibility, as well as to-hit/to-dmg on other things, like armor
(unlikely) to gloves (more reasonable).
Draco18s
joshua.m...@sbcglobal.net says...
>
> magnate wrote:
>
> Making it so you can forge
> anything also detracts from the joy at finding your first artifact
> cloak, or the phial (an excellent item, by the way).
The phial is definitely a nice item. And (off topic) I recently started a
non-perverse game and managed to miss the phial. Without ever seeing the
"special" level message. And it must have been on dlv 1 or 2...
Is that normal?
Draco18s
> On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick <no...@invalid.org> wrote:
> > 10. Pick a patch, any patch. The source variant must either 1) be not
> > actively maintained or 2) Oangband, or 3) Sangband. The code or text
> > must be reasonably compact, and it must not form the "essence" of a
> > variant. So PsiAngband's psionic magic ain't on offer - you want it,
> > get it yourself.
>
> 1. Hengband-style semi-persistant dungeons., as other people have mentioned.
>
> 2. Universal use command -- I think such a command would make Angband more
> accessible to a larger number of players. At the moment, the current number of
> commands is rather absurd.
I agree here, even after playing for a while, I still mistype the command
for using a staff versus a rod or wand.
'u'se should apply to nearly any item. Potions, staves, wands, rods,
perhaps even food.
Also, IMO, since 'E'at is a more commonly used command, and 'e'quipment a
lesser-used one, that switching them would help.
> 3. Either store services, or a set of objects that can always be bought, like
> Cure Critical Wounds, Food Rations, Oil, basic ammo, etc.
WoR, ID, Remove Curse...restore <stat> potions too maybe?
> 4. OAngband (I think)'s "shafts" that transport people down 100 feet at a time,
> rather than the standard fifty.
D*mn! And to think I hated trap doors!
Andrew Doull
> magnate wrote:
> >>Make every object useful to every character.
> >I think "make every object useful to every character" is truly flawed
> >though, because it would detract from the joy of the fact that these
> >characters are *different*.
>
> Yeah. I think the goal should be "make every object useful to some
> character in some situation". Potions and rings of Weakness etc. are an
> example of something that isn't.
>
How about making potions of Weakness useful against uniques, either by throwing,
or dipping your arrows into them? And rings of Weakness can be turned into rings
of Strength by wearing them and using *Remove Curse*. It requires a bit of
creativity, that's all.
Now the real problem is finding rings of Strength (+2) when you have a ring of
Strength (+3).
Werner Bär
"Otto Martin" <otto....@tut.fi> schrieb...
> Yeah. I think the goal should be "make every object useful to some
> character in some situation". Potions and rings of Weakness etc. are an
> example of something that isn't.
I've used potions of weakness with a character with random artifacts
to check out which of his items had sustain strength, if any.
(had fought some dreads, and wasn't drained)
I've used potions of poison to make sure that i don't have wrong
information in artifact memory.
I've used a ring of teleportation as an escape item in a desperate
situation.
But i have no use for a ring of weakness.
(Maybe eat it and have a chance to get intrinsic sustain strength?)
Werner.
Pia Kraft
>
> My biggest criticism of wilderness code is that it is far too easy to run
> into massively out of depth monsters in the wilderness.
It's either plain deadly (the lvl11 mage surrounded by Bert, the Stone Troll
and his gang) or plain annoying (the lvl 50 warrior surrounded by a small
army of icky things). Or, if nothing happens, it's plain tedious, esp. if
the variant has multiple homes in different towns like Tome.
Maybe it's best to ditch the idea of ambushes and keep the player's interest
by implementing a small chance that 'something might happen'. Like random
mini-quests: an old lady asking you to retrieve a ring, a dragon asking you
to slaugther his treacherous brother, stuff like that. And/or the
generation of ad-hoc dungeons (you see the entrance to an abandoned
estate), scaled to the players level. But the player should decide, and if
the player decides, that he/she doesn't like overland travel, it should be
possible to travel between towns be other means (like heng).
-Pia-
magnate
> joshua.m...@sbcglobal.net says...
> > Someone else wrote:
> >
> > Making it so you can forge
> > anything also detracts from the joy at finding your first artifact
> > cloak, or the phial (an excellent item, by the way).
>
> The phial is definitely a nice item. And (off topic) I recently started a
> non-perverse game and managed to miss the phial. Without ever seeing the
> "special" level message. And it must have been on dlv 1 or 2...
> Is that normal?
Ok, at this point I'd like to point out that I have played many dozens
of games of S, since 0.9.9.beta6 or so, and I have NEVER EVER EVER
found the Phial. Ok so I've never won, but I've frequently passed 2000'
and occasionally passed 2500' and 9/10 times I pass 1500'. So perhaps
the Phial is a bit rare?
To expand, I've found precisely two ego lanterns in all those dozens of
games. Man they were great - but I don't think allowing me to forge
them would be too outrageously generous!
That's not to say that forging should be easy, even at high skill
levels. Hey, maybe you only get to forge lanterns, cloaks etc. at
higher skill levels (like rings & amulets).
CC
camlost
The Phial's base depth is dlevl 45. The star's is 50. The phial is a
potent offensive weapon if you get it early (though I think it's been
toned down in the early game). If you really want an ego lantern, try
investing in the general store. They'll stock them eventually. As for
crafting them, I think convincing Leon will be tough; there's already
plenty of stuff to craft, and those precious skill points are probably
well spent elsewhere.
Joshua
Draco18s
chr...@dbass.demon.co.uk says...
> Draco18s wrote:
> > joshua.m...@sbcglobal.net says...
> > > Someone else wrote:
> > >
> > > Making it so you can forge
> > > anything also detracts from the joy at finding your first artifact
> > > cloak, or the phial (an excellent item, by the way).
> >
> > The phial is definitely a nice item. And (off topic) I recently started a
> > non-perverse game and managed to miss the phial. Without ever seeing the
> > "special" level message. And it must have been on dlv 1 or 2...
> > Is that normal?
>
> Ok, at this point I'd like to point out that I have played many dozens
> of games of S, since 0.9.9.beta6 or so, and I have NEVER EVER EVER
> found the Phial. Ok so I've never won, but I've frequently passed 2000'
> and occasionally passed 2500' and 9/10 times I pass 1500'. So perhaps
> the Phial is a bit rare?
Not using S myself, but it does sound a bit extreme that you've never once
come across it (not even as a missed?).
> To expand, I've found precisely two ego lanterns in all those dozens of
> games. Man they were great - but I don't think allowing me to forge
> them would be too outrageously generous!
>
> That's not to say that forging should be easy, even at high skill
> levels. Hey, maybe you only get to forge lanterns, cloaks etc. at
> higher skill levels (like rings & amulets).
Gloves, boots, cloaks, and lanterns to me seem like lower-"level" forging
(with boosts that make sense, I.E. gloves of str or boots of dex, lantern of
see invisible). With armor, gauntlets, rings, perhaps even wands and staves
at higher levels.
Draco18s
joshua.m...@sbcglobal.net says...
>
> The Phial's base depth is dlevl 45. The star's is 50. The phial is a
> potent offensive weapon if you get it early (though I think it's been
> toned down in the early game). If you really want an ego lantern, try
> investing in the general store. They'll stock them eventually. As for
> crafting them, I think convincing Leon will be tough; there's already
> plenty of stuff to craft, and those precious skill points are probably
> well spent elsewhere.
dlvl 45? Odd, considering that of two characters (one who has the phial and
one who missed it) in DrAngband I haven't gotten that deep, and both of them
"encountered" it very very early. I think that the char with the phial
found it very quickly after acquiring his lamp (and before ever having to
refuel it!).
As for the general store and ego lanterns, I'm sure I'll see them
eventually, but not for a LONG time. The char with the phial
hasn't even hit dlvl 30 yet and has not see one ego lantern and a bare 2
*ID*'s.
camlost
Yes, the phial is quite deep in Sangband (for the phial).
Check out lib/edit/artifacts.txt to see it's info (including when it drops).
Joshua
Jeff Greene
"Draco18s" <draco18s_DOES_NOT@LIKE_SPAM_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1129151730.fa1abe34614f1487d42e579a468f2a8d@teranews...
> In article <I2c3f.2$oi...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,
> joshua.m...@sbcglobal.net says...
> >
> > The Phial's base depth is dlevl 45.
>
It's DL 5. That must be a typo.
-Jeff
camlost
No, phial is dlevel 45 in Sangband, and it's intended as such (as far as
I know). It activates for illumination, some curing, and some damage
(anywhere from 4d0 to 4d25 depending on level). It's also part of a set
of items entrusted to hobbits. Light radius 3 is nothing to scoff at.
Why bother coding ego lanterns if the phial shows up too early? I
suppose they might be better (and some are, at least in Sang).
Joshua
Hugo Kornelis
(snip)
>And (off topic) I recently started a
>non-perverse game
Hi Draco,
Good. If you're ever starting perverse games, please find a more
appropriate group - there are thousands out there!!
(Sorry, couldn't resist the temnptation)
>and managed to miss the phial. Without ever seeing the
>"special" level message. And it must have been on dlv 1 or 2...
>Is that normal?
Probably dropped by a monster, then. It's quite a lucky drop (well, not
if you miss it of course <g>), but not really rare. In most variants,
the Phial has native depth 5. I've seen drops that are more out of
depth.
Of course, in Sangband (where Phial is native to Dlvl 45 instead of 5),
this IS extremely rare!
Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!
(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
Arturus Magi
> > > 2. Oangband quiver code. Makes small stacks and artifact ammo
> >
> I was about to post a question to the newsgroup about this
> possibility. The most important thing that I would like to see in
> ToME is a better way to handle arrows, I just didn't know how to
> change it. Your description for the quiver patch seems to be the
> answer.
>
> As a non-coder, how would I best add this patch to a Windows ToME
> implementation?
>
Most likely, you don't. With ToME, it'd probably be better to do this
in LUA, wholly separated from the inventory code.
Regardless of the variant, it's too easy to horribly break things when
you start poking at the inventory, as I found out the hard way trying
to increase the size of the inventory a couple slots (only one or two
ports are still limited to 24 lines, which is the reason the Angband
inventory ended up 23 slots in size, so I tried to push it up to 25, at
which point we run out of letters (one reserved for the overflow slot,
which is 'x' in current variants, even though it shouldn't actually
need a letter). Long story short: SEGV as soon as you try to do
anything involving inventory management, and I'm not good enough coder
to track down the actual cause).
I've been looking at porting pieces of Heng over to ToME for a while,
and in most cases I've come to the conclusion that avoiding the C code
as often as possible would be best.
Draco18s
Ang...@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om says...
> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:37:40 -0400, Draco18s wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >And (off topic) I recently started a
> >non-perverse game
>
> Hi Draco,
>
> Good. If you're ever starting perverse games, please find a more
> appropriate group - there are thousands out there!!
Only my first game or two has been perverse. And the one where I actually
have the Phial is save-scummed (for the reason that I want to get all the
way through so I can see what there is instead of dying to it a hundred
times before learning).
> (Sorry, couldn't resist the temnptation)
No problem.
> >and managed to miss the phial. Without ever seeing the
> >"special" level message. And it must have been on dlv 1 or 2...
> >Is that normal?
>
> Probably dropped by a monster, then. It's quite a lucky drop (well, not
> if you miss it of course <g>), but not really rare. In most variants,
> the Phial has native depth 5. I've seen drops that are more out of
> depth.
*Nods* The non-pervese game I mention started with killing Farmer Maggot and
getting...forgot the name...Kelgar's Tome of Power? One of the really
*expensive* arcane books. I couldn't use it so I sold it for 12k. And then
bough 11 and a half K worth of stuff (about three items ;) ).
Unfortunately, I died the other day. :(
> Of course, in Sangband (where Phial is native to Dlvl 45 instead of 5),
> this IS extremely rare!
Indeed.
topazg
> In article ,
> Andrew Doull wrote:
> >On 2005-10-09 17:27:23, Leon Marrick wrote:
> >The top ten things I'd like to see in Sangband:
> [...]
> >Bring back object fennelling.
>
> Fenneling is fundamentally broken - I don't think it is possible to
> avoid it being stupidly powerful without making it useless.
>
>
How about coding the failure code that a failed fenneling attempt does HP
damage, and the more powerful the item is, the more damage it does (maybe
{power before fennel} + {power after fennel if successful} / 2) - This way the
damage for a failed fennel can be displayed when you try, with a chance to
cancel, and as soon as you get fairly powerful items you are looking at a fatal
failure hit. Warriors of course would get a pleasant advantage here, but one
that could be at least partially balanced by either a) adjusting damage for the
char's hit die, or b) just making the chance of failures for warriors higher..
--
Take Care,
Graham
Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)
Nick
> Did you see my post in rgrd about using Voronoi diagrams to generate a
> structured wilderness?
I have now :)
That is a really cool idea; I half wish I'd tried something like that. The
other half is telling me that I don't have the coding skills to do that and get
the variant playable before I die. I've gone with the wilderness you have if
you're not having a wilderness - wilderness levels are just like dungeon levels
except for different terrain, and possible different directions to leave the
level besides up and down. And I have a precoded graph of which levels can
reach which, with (as you also suggested) only single difficulty level changes
between adjacent levels.
> My biggest criticism of wilderness code is that it is far too easy to run into
> massively out of depth monsters in the wilderness. And most people treat it as
> a feature, rather than a problem ("Then you take the potion of detonations to
> the area where the hydra hang out...")
I've circumvented that, I hope; but then, I suspect a lot of people would not
call what I'm doing "real wilderness". I'm also wondering if it is going to
turn into one of those perverse games that are mentioned upthread :)
Nick.
Draco18s
says...
Thought of a suggestion/patch/whatever.
This came to me while watching a borg at work. They have a function to
eliminate junk, which is based on the value of items.
My suggestion is something that would display the estimated sell value for
items carried. Obviously unIDed {good} or better items would come up as the
sale value for an {average} item of the same make. UnIDed {special} items
can either be treated this way, or given a value of "priceless."
This would certainly cut down on paperwork of people who record the sell
value of items themselves (like I've got floating around somewhere).
This could either be part of the inventory, or a scroll (that could be
purchased in town).