Proposal New Level Feelings System
LucFrench
forget how to spell his name) asked about a reworking of level feelings and
artifacts. Here goes:
1. Artifacts. Artifacts are like any other object, with the single exception
that there can only be one example of a given artifact at any time. If an
artifact has a definite location, it will not be generated; but if it has been
lost, it can be regenerated. Artifacts are somewhat rarer in exchange for this.
This makes my suggested level feeling tinkering easier.
2. Level feelings. There are three axis that we should think about: danger
level, item value, and the 'power level'.
Danger is incremented slightly for *every* monster (less for monsters deeper
then they should be, more for OoD monsters), a significant increase player
ghosts, and a moderate increase for a pit or vault (according to what kind of
pit it is; however, the monster count is more important).
Item value is incremented slightly for every item in the map. However, a larger
increase is given for OoD items, Ego items, and Artifacts, regardless of their
actual value.
Power level is increased for everything 'interesting' in a level, whether that
be a player ghost, an OoD item, an artifact, a pit, or a vault.
In addition, some features (in particular player ghosts, pits, and vaults) have
special messages ("You hear the pounding of Orcish drums") and values
associated with them.
Each class is more likely to notice certain things. Warriors (along with O's
Assassins and Necromancers) are more likely to notice the danger level; Rogues
(and in O, Mages) have a leaning towards items; Priests, Paladins and non-O
Mages tend to notice the overall power level; and Rangers (and O druids) are
more likely to take note of special features. Each has an additional weakness
in level feelings; Warriors aren't very good at sensing items, Rogues have very
little idea of the overall power level; Priests are have little concept of
features; and Rangers lack a strong danger sense.
All this is accomplished fairly simply; here it is in pseudocode:
*char level_feeling (*char feature_string, int feature_value)
{
int danger, itemvalue, power;
/* All three of the below can also be done at level generation time, and
handed off to our function */
danger = calc_danger();
itemvalue = calc_itemvalue();
power = calc_power();
danger *= p_ptr->danger_sense
itemvalue *= p_ptr->item_sense
power *= p_ptr->power_sense
feature_value *= p_ptr->feature_sense
/* Note that in order to avoid deadlock, we use >=, rather then just >.
This means that the order is important in case of a tie. */
if (power >= danger && power >= itemvalue && power >= feature_value)
return powerfeeling[(power/p_ptr->power_sense)];
if (danger >= itemvalue && danger >= feature_value)
return dangerfeeling[(danger/p_ptr->danger_sense)];
if (feature_value >= itemvalue)
return *feature_string; /*I forget if this is correct, but I'm too tired to
check.*/
return itemfeeling[(itemvalue/p_ptr->item_sense)];
}
Ah well. Feel free to poke holes in this.
Thanks
Luc "Bad Idea, Bad Bad Idea, no diner for you!" French
Angband Addict
lucf...@aol.com (LucFrench) wrote:
> 1. Artifacts. Artifacts are like any other object, with the single
exception
> that there can only be one example of a given artifact at any time.
If an
> artifact has a definite location, it will not be generated; but if it
has been
> lost, it can be regenerated. Artifacts are somewhat rarer in exchange
for this.
> This makes my suggested level feeling tinkering easier.
Sound very much like 'Preserve Mode' to me...
> 2. Level feelings. There are three axis that we should think about:
danger
> level, item value, and the 'power level'.
[Snip detailed explaination]
> Ah well. Feel free to poke holes in this.
Prod... Poke... Seems reasonably fine to me. The way feelings work at
the moment is that a running total is kept during level generation.
Presumably a more efficient way of implementing your idea would be to
keep three running totals, rather than having specialised routines that
examine the level after creation has finished.
One thing that has always grated with me about Vanilla (and most
variants in fact) is the way that you only get the level feeling if you
stayed on the previous level for long enough. It seems a very hackish
way to stop stair scumming.
I much prefer the system (easily implemented) of not giving the feeling
until you have been on the current level for a period of time. The code
is almost the same (I implemented it in Cthangband) but is seems a lot
more realistic - rather than having a flash of inspiration as soon as
you enter, you don't get a feeling for the level unless you have spent
a while looking round.
What would be the odds of this change making its way into Vanilla (even
as an option?)
Dean
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LucFrench
>I much prefer the system (easily implemented) of not giving the feeling
>until you have been on the current level for a period of time. The code
>is almost the same (I implemented it in Cthangband) but is seems a lot
>more realistic - rather than having a flash of inspiration as soon as
>you enter, you don't get a feeling for the level unless you have spent
>a while looking round.
Ah, I knew I forgot something. All right, here's a small addition to the
proposal:
3. Timing of level feelings. You get a feeling about a level after XdY turns. X
is governed by level (both dungeon and player), Y is governed by class. Pure
spellcasters have a higher Y, while warriors have a lower Y, but the variance
in Y should be lower then for X.
Ah well.
Thanks
Luc "Feelings, nothing less then feelings" French
LucFrench
>In article <20001009084638...@ng-cl1.aol.com>,
> lucf...@aol.com (LucFrench) wrote:
>> 1. Artifacts. Artifacts are like any other object, with the single
>exception
>> that there can only be one example of a given artifact at any time.
>If an
>> artifact has a definite location, it will not be generated; but if it
>has been
>> lost, it can be regenerated. Artifacts are somewhat rarer in exchange
>for this.
>> This makes my suggested level feeling tinkering easier.
>
>Sound very much like 'Preserve Mode' to me...
[Sorry, I didn't notice this when composing my previous reply]
Yes and no. Yes, it's like Preserve mode, but the key difference is: as long as
the artifact wasn't destroyed, it'll turn up again, regardless of whether it
was stolen, dropped, what have you. Even if it was identified. Even if it was
*Identified*. The only difference is, the next time you find it, it'll be
reset.
Ah well.
Thanks
Luc "Missed" French
Stig E. Sandø
> All right, here's more proof that I'm nuts. The new maintainer of OAngband (I
> forget how to spell his name) asked about a reworking of level feelings and
> artifacts. Here goes:
>
> 1. Artifacts. Artifacts are like any other object, with the single exception
> that there can only be one example of a given artifact at any time. If an
> artifact has a definite location, it will not be generated; but if it has been
> lost, it can be regenerated. Artifacts are somewhat rarer in exchange for this.
> This makes my suggested level feeling tinkering easier.
I think preserve mode "solves" this already.
> 2. Level feelings. There are three axis that we should think about: danger
> level, item value, and the 'power level'.
>
> Danger is incremented slightly for *every* monster (less for monsters deeper
> then they should be, more for OoD monsters), a significant increase player
> ghosts, and a moderate increase for a pit or vault (according to what kind of
> pit it is; however, the monster count is more important).
Should a pit or a vault contribute more to the danger-level than the
monsters inside it? Does not the "value" of vaults, pits, etc fall
into your "feature"-feeling below?
> Item value is incremented slightly for every item in the map. However, a larger
> increase is given for OoD items, Ego items, and Artifacts, regardless of their
> actual value.
In variants with quests to find specific items, this feeling should of
course be increased.
> Power level is increased for everything 'interesting' in a level, whether that
> be a player ghost, an OoD item, an artifact, a pit, or a vault.
This includes the amount and difficulty of traps I presume.
> In addition, some features (in particular player ghosts, pits, and vaults) have
> special messages ("You hear the pounding of Orcish drums") and values
> associated with them.
Should these messages be separate from feelings? I think so at
least.
> Each class is more likely to notice certain things. Warriors (along
> with O's Assassins and Necromancers) are more likely to notice the
> danger level; Rogues (and in O, Mages) have a leaning towards items;
> Priests, Paladins and non-O Mages tend to notice the overall power
> level; and Rangers (and O druids) are more likely to take note of
> special features. Each has an additional weakness in level feelings;
> Warriors aren't very good at sensing items, Rogues have very little
> idea of the overall power level; Priests are have little concept of
> features; and Rangers lack a strong danger sense.
Though I disagree slightly on who detects what, I think it's a good
idea to make feelings dependant on the character's race, class and
level. It's likely that the dwarven warriour can sniff an orc from a
mile away, while the half-troll probably won't notice much. :-)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe st...@ii.uib.no http://www.ii.uib.no/~stig/
LucFrench
>(LucFrench) writes:
>
>> All right, here's more proof that I'm nuts. The new maintainer of OAngband
>(I
>> forget how to spell his name) asked about a reworking of level feelings and
>> artifacts. Here goes:
>>
>> 1. Artifacts. Artifacts are like any other object, with the single
>exception
>> that there can only be one example of a given artifact at any time. If an
>> artifact has a definite location, it will not be generated; but if it has
>been
>> lost, it can be regenerated. Artifacts are somewhat rarer in exchange for
>this.
>> This makes my suggested level feeling tinkering easier.
>
>I think preserve mode "solves" this already.
Yes and no; preserve mode permanently on is needed for my 'feeling' system to
work.
>> 2. Level feelings. There are three axis that we should think about: danger
>> level, item value, and the 'power level'.
>>
>> Danger is incremented slightly for *every* monster (less for monsters
>deeper
>> then they should be, more for OoD monsters), a significant increase player
>> ghosts, and a moderate increase for a pit or vault (according to what kind
>of
>> pit it is; however, the monster count is more important).
>
>Should a pit or a vault contribute more to the danger-level than the
>monsters inside it? Does not the "value" of vaults, pits, etc fall
>into your "feature"-feeling below?
No, most decidedly not. As I said, "The monster count is more important", i.e.,
the fact of a pit increases the danger less then the monsters inside the pit.
And yes, there is some duplication between the feeling types; that's
intentional.
>> Power level is increased for everything 'interesting' in a level, whether
>that
>> be a player ghost, an OoD item, an artifact, a pit, or a vault.
>
>This includes the amount and difficulty of traps I presume.
No; traps are part of the 'Danger' level. (Although a large number of traps
would cause an increase in the power level.)
>> In addition, some features (in particular player ghosts, pits, and vaults)
>have
>> special messages ("You hear the pounding of Orcish drums") and values
>> associated with them.
>
>Should these messages be separate from feelings? I think so at
>least.
Maybe. Still, knowing there's an orc pit in the vicinity will tend to distract
you from the fact that the overall power level is somewhat low.
>> Each class is more likely to notice certain things. Warriors (along
>> with O's Assassins and Necromancers) are more likely to notice the
>> danger level; Rogues (and in O, Mages) have a leaning towards items;
>> Priests, Paladins and non-O Mages tend to notice the overall power
>> level; and Rangers (and O druids) are more likely to take note of
>> special features. Each has an additional weakness in level feelings;
>> Warriors aren't very good at sensing items, Rogues have very little
>> idea of the overall power level; Priests are have little concept of
>> features; and Rangers lack a strong danger sense.
>
>Though I disagree slightly on who detects what, I think it's a good
>idea to make feelings dependant on the character's race, class and
>level. It's likely that the dwarven warriour can sniff an orc from a
>mile away, while the half-troll probably won't notice much. :-)
That's why in the pseudocode I made the exact scaling come from p_ptr. Easier
to tinker around with. (If it's part of the same mechanic, I'd prefer not to
have pit/vault detection require that much 'interesting' math.)
As a side note, vaults should have their own individual value and Feeling
strings defined in v_info.
Thanks
Luc "Pole Vault" French