New roguelike written from scratch... Any suggestions?
Odysseus
Hi all,
I and some collegues of mine have recently begun writing a new
roguelike game from scratch....
And seeing as I have been playing moria/angband/zangband and reading
this group since before I was born, I thought I'd give you guys a
chance to offer any suggestions that might come to mind (offers of
help with coding would be appreciated, too.... theres lots to do :)
So, as some background, here are some current details (obviously open
to recommendations/suggestions/criticisms) :
1) Game will be based in the future, probably in grimy Syndicate/Deus
Ex or maybe Mad Max sort of setting.
2) Though you start neutral, you will be able to aim towards being a
goody or baddy, and this choice will determine the ultimate goal of
the game.
3) Game world will be like zangband wilderness, but even bigger, with
main goody and baddy towns at opposite end of map. These towns will
house entrances to the buildings (dungeons) that contain the big
baddy/goody.
4) There will only be NPCs in the game, no monsters (but some/many
NPCs may be mutants/aliens/etc). Any NPCs with similar alignment to
yours in your visable area may or may not join in any fight on your
side (like gandalf/fangorn/fundin, not like pets)... But as you get
closer to main enemy town, there will be less like-aligned NPCs
around....
5) There will be lots of ranged weapons as well as melee weapons, and
ranged weapon combat will probably be the most common. Ranged weapons
will range from standard pistols through to plasma rifle (ego item) to
antimatter cannon (another ego).
6) Instead of having a generic HP number, HPs will be kept on a
limb/torso/head basis, where any/some/all of these can take individual
damage. If the HPs on a limb reach zero, it is no longer useable. eg.
if you are firing a pistol with your left hand, and swinging a sword
with your right hand, and you HPs in you left arm reach zero, then you
will no longer be able to fire the pistol.
Note: if your HPs on your head or torso reach zero, then you die.
The above system also applies to other stats like str, dex, etc. In
the above example, the char may be using the sword in his right arm
because it is stronger, and the pistol in his left because it has
higher dex.
Also any suggestions/comments about continuing to use the old 3-18
based stat system would be appreciated.... Its kinda old and klunky,
but at least it is familiar....
Odysseus.
Ilya K. Shumov
> because it is stronger, and the pistol in his left because it has
> higher dex.
>
James WWW Wilson
>[Cool suggestions for future roguelike]
Wow - These sound very cool, I look forward to playing it....
I vote get rid of the 3-18 stuff, it's confusing for people who don't
know the D&D stuff, like me although I am used to it through Angband,
and it doesn't help that much really....
--
James
"Step into my shadow..." - Slayer & Atari Teenage Riot
Michiel de Boer
"Odysseus" <mjo...@vet.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:ac56at467qlt5mrim...@4ax.com...
[Cool future roguelike]
It would be cool if NPCs can join your party (like in rpgs).
Odysseus
How much control do you think you would want over them?
Like pets? (they are basically autonomous) or like normal
rpg NPCs? (they are drones)
Odysseus
Michiel de Boer
Like normal rpg NPCs :
- they can join/unjoin you
- they can be resurrected
- they can carry/wield stuff
- they have their own xp, which can be improved
(optional - they have their own quests (BG2))
- perhaps the corridors in the dungeon should be widened (to e.g. 2 squares) to
make party attacks more effective
Examples : Baldur's Gate 1,2, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Ultima VI.
William Tanksley
>I and some collegues of mine have recently begun writing a new
>roguelike game from scratch....
Whee!
>And seeing as I have been playing moria/angband/zangband and reading
>this group since before I was born, I thought I'd give you guys a
>chance to offer any suggestions that might come to mind (offers of
>help with coding would be appreciated, too.... theres lots to do :)
Sorry I can't help -- got enough work... :-)
But seeing as you're starting from scratch, why not be *really*
adventurous and use a hex grid? It would be especially valuable to you,
since you're using a lot of distance weapons, and distance attacks don't
work well in a system which allows diagonal movement.
In addition, there are a lot of really interesting effects that can be
added to an ASCII hexgrid, since each grid is displayed with two character
positions. For example, you could display traps and dangers in the second
cell (thereby making them always visible).
There's a demo of how to do ASCII hex roguelikes somewhere on the net.
I'd love to see a real game based on this.
>Odysseus.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Odysseus
>>And seeing as I have been playing moria/angband/zangband and reading
>>this group since before I was born, I thought I'd give you guys a
>>chance to offer any suggestions that might come to mind (offers of
>>help with coding would be appreciated, too.... theres lots to do :)
>
>adventurous and use a hex grid? It would be especially valuable to you,
>since you're using a lot of distance weapons, and distance attacks don't
>work well in a system which allows diagonal movement.
>
This is a great idea, and I have been toying with it for a while... The only
real problem I see would be things like the fact that it would be impossible
to
make a four sided room because an (on-screen) vertical "straight" wall would
look
ridiculous... ie:
############
## ##
## ##
## ##
## ##
## ##
############
The only option would be to have all rooms/corridors/etc with no vertical
straight lines.... bit of a bummer...
>In addition, there are a lot of really interesting effects that can be
>added to an ASCII hexgrid, since each grid is displayed with two character
>positions. For example, you could display traps and dangers in the second
>cell (thereby making them always visible).
>
That does sound very cool.... :)
>There's a demo of how to do ASCII hex roguelikes somewhere on the net.
>I'd love to see a real game based on this.
>
Me too... ;)
Gwidon S. Naskrent
> >There's a demo of how to do ASCII hex roguelikes somewhere on the net.
> >I'd love to see a real game based on this.
> >
>
> Me too... ;)
Me not. One has only to look at cconq (not developed anymore, I hear)
to see how revolting hex maps in ASCII are. And the two-chars-one-space
idea is just plain miscarried. It'd be like reading UCS-2 text in
an ASCII viewer.
GSN
Michiel de Boer
"Gwidon S. Naskrent" <nask...@hoth.amu.edu.pl> schreef in bericht
news:Pine.LNX.4.31.01031...@localhost.localdomain...
Why is ASCII supported anyway ? Don't the graphics look way cooler ?
Jonathan Ellis
Michiel de Boer wrote in message <98lidi$rcke$1...@reader03.wxs.nl>...
ASCII is supported because it *is* the default standard, and the graphics
are NOT cooler.
Also consider that it's much more easy to add new things, items and
especially monsters to the game in ASCII mode where you only have to worry
about letters: you can't design graphics in r_info.txt, which is why
graphics are currently not supported in several variants and at least two
major info.txt patches (mine, and the "Discband" one for ZAngband which is
also apparently just a textfile rewrite.) The moment you have to start
worrying about graphics you make the game that much more complicated, and
that much more stagnant - and that much less user-editable, which is one of
the main features of Angband.
Jonathan.
Michiel de Boer
"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:98lpgi$6fe$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> are NOT cooler.
I wonder why they added the graphics if everyone had this opinion ;-)
> Also consider that it's much more easy to add new things, items and
> especially monsters to the game in ASCII mode where you only have to worry
> about letters: you can't design graphics in r_info.txt, which is why
> graphics are currently not supported in several variants and at least two
> major info.txt patches (mine, and the "Discband" one for ZAngband which is
> also apparently just a textfile rewrite.) The moment you have to start
> worrying about graphics you make the game that much more complicated, and
> that much more stagnant - and that much less user-editable, which is one of
> the main features of Angband.
>
Of course, the simpler the graphics, the simpler the code :-)
But the 32x32 graphics seem a good compromise between "no graphics" and "modern
graphics", so why not go from there ?
Jonathan Ellis
Michiel de Boer wrote in message <98lr3k$remg$1...@reader03.wxs.nl>...
>
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in bericht
>news:98lpgi$6fe$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Michiel de Boer wrote in message <98lidi$rcke$1...@reader03.wxs.nl>...
>> >Why is ASCII supported anyway ? Don't the graphics look way cooler ?
>> ASCII is supported because it *is* the default standard, and the graphics
>> are NOT cooler.
>
>I wonder why they added the graphics if everyone had this opinion ;-)
>> Also consider that it's much more easy to add new things, items and
>> especially monsters to the game in ASCII mode where you only have to
worry
>> about letters: you can't design graphics in r_info.txt, which is why
>> graphics are currently not supported in several variants and at least two
>> major info.txt patches (mine, and the "Discband" one for ZAngband which
is
>> also apparently just a textfile rewrite.) The moment you have to start
>> worrying about graphics you make the game that much more complicated, and
>> that much more stagnant - and that much less user-editable, which is one
of
>> the main features of Angband.
>>
>Of course, the simpler the graphics, the simpler the code :-)
>But the 32x32 graphics seem a good compromise between "no graphics" and
"modern
>graphics", so why not go from there ?
Right. Your first task is to design a new set of 32x32 graphics for
something that doesn't yet support them - for instance, Psiband, which
doesn't yet have graphics for all the new monsters that were added into the
game, or for the new items. You can do up a new set of 16x16 graphics for
people who prefer them as well...
Find it easy? Can you do it? Would you want to do it yourself even if
you could? I can't, which is why I haven't. Any provision Matthias Kurzke
may have made for new graphics is as yet unknown to me as I play only with
ASCII, but I understand it's not complete anyway... If you can't or won't,
then don't keep on wondering why other people haven't done it.
Angband development is on an entirely voluntary basis. And if graphics
designers can't be found, why should the lack of graphic support hold back
game developement in other aspects? If a gameplay improvement is envisioned
that does not yet have graphic support, then what would you prefer - the
gameplay improvement without the graphics, or the fancy graphics without the
gameplay improvement? Angband is about gameplay, with graphics an optional
extra which is fully supported for some things, and for some variants, but
not others. If you make graphics integral, consider how much you take
away... such as anyone's ability to change a monster or item simply in a
plain text file: this may not have been part of the game in the beginning,
but it's here now, and I consider it a FAR more important part of Angband
than mere eye candy.
Jonathan.
Michiel de Boer
> Right. Your first task is to design a new set of 32x32 graphics for
> something that doesn't yet support them - for instance, Psiband, which
> doesn't yet have graphics for all the new monsters that were added into the
> game, or for the new items. You can do up a new set of 16x16 graphics for
> people who prefer them as well...
> Find it easy? Can you do it? Would you want to do it yourself even if
> you could? I can't, which is why I haven't. Any provision Matthias Kurzke
> may have made for new graphics is as yet unknown to me as I play only with
> ASCII, but I understand it's not complete anyway... If you can't or won't,
> then don't keep on wondering why other people haven't done it.
What I wanted to say was :
- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics _available_
(32x32) (in the beginning, you don't have to create all new ones, even e.g. in
Z they aren't complete yet, but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this
mode)
=> this mode must (eventually) be supported
=> so why not skip the other modes and start with this one ?
> Angband development is on an entirely voluntary basis. And if graphics
> designers can't be found, why should the lack of graphic support hold back
> game developement in other aspects? If a gameplay improvement is envisioned
> that does not yet have graphic support, then what would you prefer - the
> gameplay improvement without the graphics, or the fancy graphics without the
> gameplay improvement? Angband is about gameplay, with graphics an optional
> extra which is fully supported for some things, and for some variants, but
> not others. If you make graphics integral, consider how much you take
> away... such as anyone's ability to change a monster or item simply in a
> plain text file: this may not have been part of the game in the beginning,
> but it's here now, and I consider it a FAR more important part of Angband
> than mere eye candy.
>
Agreed - concentrating too much on the graphics can lead to less functionality,
that's why I talked about the 32x32 compromise.
(just depends on how much time you have)
Jonathan Ellis
Michiel de Boer wrote in message <98lt08$rpj8$1...@reader03.wxs.nl>...
>
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in bericht
>news:98ls42$sv1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Right. Your first task is to design a new set of 32x32 graphics for
>> something that doesn't yet support them - for instance, Psiband, which
>> doesn't yet have graphics for all the new monsters that were added into
the
>> game, or for the new items. You can do up a new set of 16x16 graphics for
>> people who prefer them as well...
>> Find it easy? Can you do it? Would you want to do it yourself even
if
>> you could? I can't, which is why I haven't. Any provision Matthias Kurzke
>> may have made for new graphics is as yet unknown to me as I play only
with
>> ASCII, but I understand it's not complete anyway... If you can't or
won't,
>> then don't keep on wondering why other people haven't done it.
>
>What I wanted to say was :
>- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics
_available_
>(32x32)
ASCII, even in those variants where up-to-date graphics are available. This
is by choice - their own, not that of the maintainers.
To say that "ASCII support should be withdrawn" means that you have to
design a graphic for everything anyway. To which there are two replies: (1)
Are you volunteering to do the graphics design? and (2) Are you volunteering
to explain it to those people who actually prefer ASCII? By all means write
your own game if you wish - and if you can.
Graphics and ASCII are not "interchangeable" modes: ASCII is clearly
the default, and graphics the add-on. Cast a spell of Genocide, and you will
be prompted for a *letter* to genocide all monsters of that letter: that's
how integral a part of the game ASCII is. If ASCII wasn't there, nobody
would know which monster belonged to which letter. To take away ASCII would
require massive changes - and this isn't the only one: consider how much
would be lost, in various realms all the way from user-editability (graphics
CANNOT be designed in Plain Text files, so if monsters and items are to be
user-editable to that degree then ASCII must be "supported", for things such
as one single change to one single monster) to the little questions such as
Genocide.
Jonathan.
Simian Vector
>> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Odysseus wrote:
>>
>> > >There's a demo of how to do ASCII hex roguelikes somewhere on the net.
>> > >I'd love to see a real game based on this.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Me too... ;)
>>
>> Me not. One has only to look at cconq (not developed anymore, I hear)
>> to see how revolting hex maps in ASCII are. And the two-chars-one-space
>> idea is just plain miscarried. It'd be like reading UCS-2 text in
>> an ASCII viewer.
>>
Seconded. As a veteran of Battletech MU*en (as well as the board
game), I can tell you that hexen are a nonsolution to a questionable
problem. Sure, you end up getting realistic diagonals, but at the
expense of half of your realistic orthogonals, and your characters jitter
all over the place trying to walk in a straight line. The secret is that
you're not going from 4 to 6, you're going from 8 to 6 (hexes make it
impossible to move across a corner), and that's just bad.
-joshua
Steve Lamb
> Seconded. As a veteran of Battletech MU*en (as well as the board
>game), I can tell you that hexen are a nonsolution to a questionable
>problem.
Hey now, the Battletech MU* were quite good. Man I miss those. Wish the
MMOG crowd could take a few lessons from the sims. Perfect time, IMHO. Not
too fast, not too slow, and handling one mech per person was perfect.
>Sure, you end up getting realistic diagonals, but at the expense of half of
>your realistic orthogonals, and your characters jitter all over the place
>trying to walk in a straight line. The secret is that you're not going from
>4 to 6, you're going from 8 to 6 (hexes make it impossible to move across a
>corner), and that's just bad.
Well, you can walk a straight line as long as you don't want to go left or
right. ;)
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
William Tanksley
>On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Odysseus wrote:
>> >There's a demo of how to do ASCII hex roguelikes somewhere on the net.
>> >I'd love to see a real game based on this.
>> Me too... ;)
>Me not. One has only to look at cconq (not developed anymore, I hear)
>to see how revolting hex maps in ASCII are.
I suspect that you've never seen a good implementation of ASCII hex maps.
Please take a look at
http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/bwross/roguelike.html, and download the
demo. It proves that hex maps can look good.
It also demonstrates some interesting techniques -- for example, it solves
the problem of how to draw an attractive rectangular room. I actually
consider this a less interesting problem than the problem of how to draw
an attractive circular room using square grids :-).
Unfortunately, it also demonstrates some problems -- hex grids don't have
four cardinal directions with four diagonals, so the keys we're used to
using don't always map as nicely as we expect (the number keypad doesn't
work as well). The good news is that our keyboards are hexagonal, so we
could possibly use something like:
p [
l ; '
. /
for movement (on my US keyboard, trivial modification for other
keyboards). Perhaps centering the movement circle on the home key would
be wiser, of course.
>And the two-chars-one-space idea is just plain miscarried. It'd be like
>reading UCS-2 text in an ASCII viewer.
Um -- no it wouldn't. That's silly. It wouldn't be like reading text at
all -- it's a map, not text. Maps give information about how things
directionally relate to each other. Hex grids are as good for that as
rectangular grids, and in addition are better for distance determination.
>GSN
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
R Dan Henry
S. Naskrent" <nask...@hoth.amu.edu.pl> transmitted thus:
Have you seen the proof-of-concept demo Gwidon? It looks decent. I
think it is more suitable to an outdoor or 'cavern' setting than the
usual 'huge constructed complex', and it would take some getting used
to because movement is different... but any new roguelike takes
getting used to because the command keys are always at least a little
different. I wouldn't want to convert an existing game to it, but it
is a legitimate option that solves the problem of diagonals.
--
R. Dan Henry
rdan...@earthlink.net
Trained Philosopher: Will Think For Food
William Tanksley
[hex grids]
>This is a great idea, and I have been toying with it for a while... The
>only real problem I see would be things like the fact that it would be
>impossible to make a four sided room because an (on-screen) vertical
>"straight" wall would look ridiculous... ie:
See the link I posted for GSN -- in the meantime, let me plagarise your
room a bit:
> ############
> ## ##
> #x x#
> ## ##
> #x x#
> ## ##
> ############
The 'x'es don't get displayed; they act like walls (which they are), but
look like floors. It's not perfect, but it looks very good and plays
well.
>The only option would be to have all rooms/corridors/etc with no vertical
>straight lines.... bit of a bummer...
When you think about it, though, it's less of a bummer than the current
situation -- we're supposed to be modelling caves, and we can't even draw
round rooms reliably. A hex system can draw all kinds of odd shapes.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Chris Kern
<auverlandG...@hotmail.com> posted the following:
>
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in bericht
>news:98ls42$sv1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Right. Your first task is to design a new set of 32x32 graphics for
>> something that doesn't yet support them - for instance, Psiband, which
>> doesn't yet have graphics for all the new monsters that were added into the
>> game, or for the new items. You can do up a new set of 16x16 graphics for
>> people who prefer them as well...
>> Find it easy? Can you do it? Would you want to do it yourself even if
>> you could? I can't, which is why I haven't. Any provision Matthias Kurzke
>> may have made for new graphics is as yet unknown to me as I play only with
>> ASCII, but I understand it's not complete anyway... If you can't or won't,
>> then don't keep on wondering why other people haven't done it.
>
>What I wanted to say was :
>- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics _available_
>(32x32) (in the beginning, you don't have to create all new ones, even e.g. in
>Z they aren't complete yet, but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this
>mode)
You know what they say about assuming. Repeated polls on this ng have
shown that, at least as far as the newsgroup's population is
indicative of a wider audience (which may not be true), most people
play ASCII.
-Chris
Steve Clark
<auverlandG...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in
> bericht news:98ls42$sv1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Right. Your first task is to design a new set of 32x32 graphics
> > for something that doesn't yet support them - for instance, Psiband,
> > which doesn't yet have graphics for all the new monsters that were
> > added into the game, or for the new items. You can do up a new set of
> > 16x16 graphics for people who prefer them as well... Find it easy? Can
> > you do it? Would you want to do it yourself even if you could? I
> > can't, which is why I haven't. Any provision Matthias Kurzke may have
> > made for new graphics is as yet unknown to me as I play only with
> > ASCII, but I understand it's not complete anyway... If you can't or
> > won't, then don't keep on wondering why other people haven't done it.
> What I wanted to say was : - Assuming most people nowadays play Angband
> with the best graphics _available_ (32x32) (in the beginning, you don't
> have to create all new ones, even e.g. in Z they aren't complete yet,
> but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this mode) => this mode
> must (eventually) be supported => so why not skip the other modes and
> start with this one ?
[Snip]
If I can butt in here. Not everbody uses Windoze - I suspect it will be a
non-trivial task to port a set of graphic tiles to a different OS and
still give readable icons. Perhaps you Mac users out there can say whether
you've got tiles.
--
Steve Clark
sjc...@argonet.co.uk using a 49Mb SA 4.02 RiscPC
William Tanksley
>"Jonathan Ellis" <jona...@franz-liszt.freeserve.co.uk> schreef in bericht
>What I wanted to say was :
>- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics _available_
>(32x32) (in the beginning, you don't have to create all new ones, even e.g. in
>Z they aren't complete yet, but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this
>mode)
>=> this mode must (eventually) be supported
>=> so why not skip the other modes and start with this one ?
Bad assumption -- even in versions with 32x32 support (such as AngbandTk),
I always play in ASCII. Some people who use graphics prefer being able to
see more items (and have a small monitor), so they use the smaller
bitmaps.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Eric Bock
A triangular grid may be nicer in some ways. It could be done with one
square per triangle, though movement becomes somewhat peculiar. The player
could always move horizontally both directions and vertically in one
direction (or vice versa, depending on the grid's orientation), and could
often move 'diagonally' across vertices. This would create the same
diagonal distance problem the square grid has, however. The advantage this
has over the hex grid is that there are 18 triangles adjacent to each hex.
_\/________\/_
/y k u\
/ \ / \
/ \h l/ \
/ \ / \
_\/________\/________\/_
/\ /\ /\
\ / \ /
\ /h l\ /
\ / \ /
_\b___j____n/_
/\ /\
This allows simple straight lines of six different slopes, though two would
be less obvious to the player.
The paths (drawn with '>', '^', and '<') following these directions are
somewhat complex though, and there can be subtle differences between two
lines with the same slope.
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
/ \ />\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \^/<\ / \ / \ / \ />\^/ \
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\ /#\^/<\ / \#/#\#/#\ / \#/ \^/<\ / \ / \ />\^/#\ /
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
/ \#/>\^/ \>/>\>/>\>/>\ / \#/ \^/<\ / \ />\^/#\ / \
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\ /#\^/<\ / \#/ \#/ \#/ \ / \#/ \^/<\ />\^/#\ / \ /
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
/ \#/>\^/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \#/ \ / \ /#\ / \ / \
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\ / \^/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
Here are the unobvious slopes:
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\#/#\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /#\#/
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
/ \</<\#/#\ / \ / \ / \ / \ /#\#/>\>/ \
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\ / \^/<\</<\#/#\ / \ /#\#/>\>/>\^/ \ /
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
/ \ / \ / \^/<\</<\#/>\>/>\^/ \ / \ / \
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
\ / \ / \ / \ / \^/ \^/ \ / \ / \ / \ /
x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x
It's easy to see the uncrossable vertices with the triangular grid drawn...
but transferred to the square grid, it looks like this:
##...............##
...##.........##...
......##...##......
.........#.........
Zero-width walls should be fairly rare, but these are also valid movement
directions if the player wants to move 'diagonally'.
--
/* Eric */main(s,i,j,k,c){char*p=malloc(s=1),*a=p+(*p=i=j=k=0)/* Bock */
;while(~(*a=getchar())&&(++a-p<s||(a=(p=realloc(p,s+s))+s)&&(s+=s))||(*a
=0));for(a=malloc(s=1),*a=0;(c=p[i])&&(c=='+'&&++a[j]||c=='-'&&--a[j]||c
=='>'&&(++j<s||(a=realloc(a,s+s))&&memset(a+s,0,s)&&(s+=s))||c=='<'&&j--
||c=='.'&&~putchar(a[j])||c==','&&~(a[j]=getchar()))|!strchr("><.,",c);i
++)while((c=='['&&!a[j]||c==']'&&a[j])&&(k+=(p[i]=='[')-(p[i]==']'))&&p[
i+=c/* Brainf*** */=='[']&&(/* worse than */i-=c==']'/* this sig! */));}
Julian Lighton
Michiel de Boer <auve...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What I wanted to say was :
>- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics _available_
>(32x32)
Not a safe assumption. For one thing, you need a lot of screen real
estate to get the same size of display. (66x22 * 32 = 2112x704. Yuo
can fit it vertically on a big monitor, but nowhere close
horizontally.) For another thing, quite a few people like ASCII.
> (in the beginning, you don't have to create all new ones, even e.g. in
>Z they aren't complete yet, but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this
>mode)
>=> this mode must (eventually) be supported
Must it?
>=> so why not skip the other modes and start with this one ?
ASCII is also a convenient default mode. It works everywhere, on any
hardware, and the underlying code uses it already, so why rewrite it?
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"Some will die in hot pursuit, in fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit, while sifting through my ashes"
-- Butthole Surfers
Peter Seebach
>(32x32) (in the beginning, you don't have to create all new ones, even e.g. in
>Z they aren't complete yet, but each monster is represented _somehow_ in this
>mode)
To be blunt, I don't even *know* whether there's a graphical version for
the Mac, I've never tried to use one. I picked the largest font I could
get on my 1024x768 powerbook, and now I'm done.
-s
--
Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/
Arcum Dagsson
<sjc...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
There are still tiles on the Mac. Which tile sets, and availability may vary,
though...
--
--Arcum Dagsson
"You say there's a horse in your bathroom, and all you can do is stand
there naming Beatles songs?"
R Dan Henry
de Boer" <auverlandG...@hotmail.com> transmitted thus:
>What I wanted to say was :
>- Assuming most people nowadays play Angband with the best graphics _available_
I do. ASCII. Still vastly superior to all alternatives. Someday,
however, it will be obsolete: when a larger character set becomes
adequately standard across most platforms to justify adopting it.
>Agreed - concentrating too much on the graphics can lead to less functionality,
>that's why I talked about the 32x32 compromise.
>(just depends on how much time you have)
So 32x32 tiles are no problem to just whip out? Cool. So, how soon are
you releasing 32x32 tile sets for Discband, the JLE patch and those
full variants that don't have them yet?
Rowan Beentje
> > non-trivial task to port a set of graphic tiles to a different OS and
> > still give readable icons. Perhaps you Mac users out there can say whether
> > you've got tiles.
>
> There are still tiles on the Mac. Which tile sets, and availability may vary,
> though...
AFAIK, there's patchy support across the mac ports for graphics, depending
on the porter. There's already code available for both 8*8 and 16*16
tiles, and they work fine in the variants that use them. The same code
could easily be adapted to cope with 32*32 tiles if such are
available... all this may become moot if ISO-*band is succesful, as it
looks to be from the mailing list.
the same goes for other platforms... as long as someone bothers to code
graphics support - which isn't too hard, although optimisation may well be
- porting sets of tiles are then a doddle, it's just a case of converting
them to the right resource type.
Anyway, back to my hole,
Cheers,
--Rowan
Michiel de Boer
"Chris Kern" <ke...@grinnell.edu> schreef in bericht
news:3aae9b7d...@enews.newsguy.com...
> Repeated polls on this ng have
> shown that, at least as far as the newsgroup's population is
> indicative of a wider audience (which may not be true), most people
> play ASCII.
>
Interesting...
Any estimates on percentages ?
Chris Kern
<auverlandG...@hotmail.com> posted the following:
>
No, sorry. However, it has been pointed out in the past that the
readership of this newsgroup is not necessarily representative of the
total Angband player base.
However, it's clear that enough people support ASCII and dislike
graphics that ASCII will continue to be the default.
-Chris
Matt Neumann
87.62 %
--
-Matt (mat...@hotmail.com)
Angband in action! Constant escalation to new depths to find angrier,
meaner letters and more punctuation!
David Thornley
Chris Kern <ke...@grinnell.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:22:04 +0100, "Michiel de Boer"
><auverlandG...@hotmail.com> posted the following:
>>"Chris Kern" <ke...@grinnell.edu> schreef in bericht
>>news:3aae9b7d...@enews.newsguy.com...
>>> Repeated polls on this ng have
>>> shown that, at least as far as the newsgroup's population is
>>> indicative of a wider audience (which may not be true), most people
>>> play ASCII.
>>
>>Interesting...
>>Any estimates on percentages ?
>
>No, sorry. However, it has been pointed out in the past that the
>readership of this newsgroup is not necessarily representative of the
>total Angband player base.
>
and that's also relevant here. (Heh heh heh.)
As the Cthangband maintainer, I will be a bit more supportive of
graphics when I see a set of Cthangband graphics I think look
appropriate. I'd accept a good graphic Azathoth as proof of
concept. :-)
>However, it's clear that enough people support ASCII and dislike
>graphics that ASCII will continue to be the default.
>
Yup.
--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
da...@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-
Julian Lighton
David Thornley <thor...@visi.com> wrote:
>As the Cthangband maintainer, I will be a bit more supportive of
>graphics when I see a set of Cthangband graphics I think look
>appropriate. I'd accept a good graphic Azathoth as proof of
>concept. :-)
It's not easy to do sanity-blasting cosmic horror in 32x32. (It'd
probably help if we had better color support. Modern video hardware
just isn't good enough.)
--
Julian Lighton jl...@fragment.com
"Oh, stop it. You can't commit seppuku with a pretzel stick."
-- _Buck Godot_
Graaagh the Mighty
<rdan...@earthlink.net> sat on a tribble, which squeaked:
>Someday, however, [ASCII] will be obsolete: when a larger character set becomes
>adequately standard across most platforms to justify adopting it.
It's called "Unicode".
--
Bill Gates: "No computer will ever need more than 640K of RAM." -- 1980
"There's nobody getting rich writing software that I know of." -- 1980
"This antitrust thing will blow over." -- 1998
Combine neo, an underscore, and one thousand sixty-one to make my hotmail addy.
William Tanksley
>The secret is that you're not going from 4 to 6, you're going from 8 to 6
>(hexes make it impossible to move across a corner), and that's just bad.
THIS is the problem: you're going from 6 equidistant locations to 8
differently-spaced locations. The result is that distance calculations
become very difficult.
Distance alone makes this worthwhile.
You claim that cornering is bad; however, I think corners are the worst
aspect of rectangular grids. This
##.
#.#
.##
###
is such a bad passageway that it's never used in Angband. In other words,
four out of your eight directions are impractical. All six hex directions
are practical and look good.
> -joshua
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
William Tanksley
>This has been a fascinating debate guys.... Currently it seems that
>despite the "really 8 directions vs. only 6 directions" argument it
>seems that a hex grid would be an interesting way to go... anybody
>have any further comment on this topic?
There's a page full of algorithms for hex systems on the web. Lemme know
if you want me to look them up.
>However, this leads into the more hotly debated issue... ascii vs.
>tiles. If you don't mind, would go guys care to give me some
>estimates on how many prefer ascii over tiles or vice versa? (we
>are currently at the dev stage where we could feasably choose either
>way (somebody already even offered to write an iso interface, but
>not draw the textures, unfortunatley)...
ASCII is overwhelmingly popular for several reasons:
- simpler to program
- compact presentation (you can fit a much larger field of view when you
can show monsters as letters)
- quick, unambiguous recognition (pictures have to have some visual
similarity to the thing pictured, but glyphs can instead be made to
look different from each other)
Graphics have a lot of advantages too. My personal favorite is to combine
the best of both worlds: take a look at the DOS game Ragnaroc, in which
the upper half of the screen is an 80x25 semi-text map (monsters are
letters, other things are simple glyphs) and the bottom of the screen
contains a magnified detail view.
>Also unfortunate is that it seems that it would be... time consuming..
>to attempt to add both ascii and tiles support from the start...
Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be to use ASCII tiles, as seen in
AngbandTk? Also allow different fonts to be used -- great Wyrms would be
a gothic D, not merely the bold D used by the ancient dragons.
This way, when someone gets the time to draw the graphics they can be
added without reprogramming.
>Odysseus
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Odysseus
wrote:
>
>
>Michiel de Boer wrote:
>>
>> "Chris Kern" <ke...@grinnell.edu> schreef in bericht
>> news:3aae9b7d...@enews.newsguy.com...
>> > Repeated polls on this ng have
>> > shown that, at least as far as the newsgroup's population is
>> > indicative of a wider audience (which may not be true), most people
>> > play ASCII.
>> >
>>
>> Interesting...
>> Any estimates on percentages ?
>
>87.62 %
This has been a fascinating debate guys.... Currently it seems that
despite the "really 8 directions vs. only 6 directions" argument it
seems that a hex grid would be an interesting way to go... anybody
have any further comment on this topic?
However, this leads into the more hotly debated issue... ascii vs.
tiles. If you don't mind, would go guys care to give me some
estimates on how many prefer ascii over tiles or vice versa? (we
are currently at the dev stage where we could feasably choose either
way (somebody already even offered to write an iso interface, but
not draw the textures, unfortunatley)...
Also unfortunate is that it seems that it would be... time consuming..
to attempt to add both ascii and tiles support from the start...
Personally, I have been play *band with tiles since moria on the
amiga, and so I kinda lean towards the tile idea, but hey, the game
isn't meant just for me...
Btw, would anybody be interested in drawing tiles (or know who might
be)?
Odysseus
Skylar Thompson
>This has been a fascinating debate guys.... Currently it seems that
>despite the "really 8 directions vs. only 6 directions" argument it
>seems that a hex grid would be an interesting way to go... anybody
>have any further comment on this topic?
I prefer eight directions, but I suppose that is because Angband
currently has eight directions, and I would have to get used to
another system.
>However, this leads into the more hotly debated issue... ascii vs.
>tiles. If you don't mind, would go guys care to give me some
>estimates on how many prefer ascii over tiles or vice versa? (we
>are currently at the dev stage where we could feasably choose either
>way (somebody already even offered to write an iso interface, but
>not draw the textures, unfortunatley)...
I am not sure how we would gather accurate estimates. I, for one,
prefer ASCII, because that it how I had to play Angband only three
years ago. I had a QX-16, and that had only CGA support. I remember
the days when I had no hard drive, and I had to play Angband off two
5 1/4" floppies. There would be no way to get tiles to have fit onto
that.
One must remember that not every one has a lot of memory or
disk space, and ASCII is the most memory- and space-efficient method.
Also remember that tiles as they are now offer no advantage over ASCII
even in the best of times, and tiles are not in the best of times. There are
not enough tiles for monsters, and that produces slow identification times.
If there were tiles for every monster, there might be a case for using
them, but certainly not as a default. The amount of disk-space that
would be taken up would increase the size of the game significantly
past the point at which it could be run off floppies.
And what could be said against ASCII, anyways? :)
--Skylar Thompson (sky...@attglobal.net)
`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.'
Odysseus
(William Tanksley) wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:57:23 +1100, Odysseus wrote:
>
>>This has been a fascinating debate guys.... Currently it seems that
>>despite the "really 8 directions vs. only 6 directions" argument it
>>seems that a hex grid would be an interesting way to go... anybody
>>have any further comment on this topic?
>
>There's a page full of algorithms for hex systems on the web. Lemme know
>if you want me to look them up.
>
That would be really useful. From the discussions I have had with the
others on the project, it seems as though we will go ahead with a
hex-grid... even though it may be couter-intuitive to some (most)
players at first, it has too many advantages to ignore...
>ASCII is overwhelmingly popular for several reasons:
>
> - simpler to program
> - compact presentation (you can fit a much larger field of view when you
> can show monsters as letters)
> - quick, unambiguous recognition (pictures have to have some visual
> similarity to the thing pictured, but glyphs can instead be made to
> look different from each other)
>
>Graphics have a lot of advantages too. My personal favorite is to combine
>the best of both worlds: take a look at the DOS game Ragnaroc, in which
>the upper half of the screen is an 80x25 semi-text map (monsters are
>letters, other things are simple glyphs) and the bottom of the screen
>contains a magnified detail view.
>
There is also an issue that if we go with tiles from day 1, then we
could very easily draw hexagonal tiles, and avoid all the "two
chars/one position" and clipped tiles in vertical walls issues...
However, then we cut out anybody who does not run a GUI (and probably
anybody not running windoze) which is kinda _very_ bad... :(
Anyway, it seems to be an issue we will have to decide amongst
ourselves very soon....
>>Also unfortunate is that it seems that it would be... time consuming..
>>to attempt to add both ascii and tiles support from the start...
>
>Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be to use ASCII tiles, as seen in
>AngbandTk? Also allow different fonts to be used -- great Wyrms would be
>a gothic D, not merely the bold D used by the ancient dragons.
>
But this has the same problems as using tiles; (very likly) windoze
only, lotsa work to do...
Matthias Kurzke
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:40:06 GMT, wtan...@dolphin.openprojects.net
> (William Tanksley) wrote:
>
>
>> On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:57:23 +1100, Odysseus wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This has been a fascinating debate guys.... Currently it seems that
>>> despite the "really 8 directions vs. only 6 directions" argument it
>>> seems that a hex grid would be an interesting way to go... anybody
>>> have any further comment on this topic?
>>
>> There's a page full of algorithms for hex systems on the web. Lemme know
>> if you want me to look them up.
>>
>
>
> That would be really useful. From the discussions I have had with the
> others on the project, it seems as though we will go ahead with a
> hex-grid... even though it may be couter-intuitive to some (most)
> players at first, it has too many advantages to ignore...
>
>
When I tried the 'hex grid demo roguelike' William Tanksley pointed to,
I found it not counter-intuitive at all. I was surprised how simple to
use it was. But then, I'm used to playing with roguelike keyset...
Matthias
William Tanksley
>(William Tanksley) wrote:
>>There's a page full of algorithms for hex systems on the web. Lemme know
>>if you want me to look them up.
>That would be really useful.
Probably the best place to start is
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/gameprog.html
It'll take you through everything, including to other useful sites.
>From the discussions I have had with the others on the project, it seems
>as though we will go ahead with a hex-grid...
Fun! Let me see the prototypes...
>even though it may be couter-intuitive to some (most)
>players at first, it has too many advantages to ignore...
Let's don't forget how unintuitive roguelikes seemed at first.
>>ASCII is overwhelmingly popular for several reasons:
>> - simpler to program
>> - compact presentation (you can fit a much larger field of view when you
>> can show monsters as letters)
>> - quick, unambiguous recognition (pictures have to have some visual
>> similarity to the thing pictured, but glyphs can instead be made to
>> look different from each other)
>>Graphics have a lot of advantages too. My personal favorite is to combine
>>the best of both worlds: take a look at the DOS game Ragnaroc, in which
>>the upper half of the screen is an 80x25 semi-text map (monsters are
>>letters, other things are simple glyphs) and the bottom of the screen
>>contains a magnified detail view.
>There is also an issue that if we go with tiles from day 1, then we
>could very easily draw hexagonal tiles, and avoid all the "two
>chars/one position" and clipped tiles in vertical walls issues...
This is true. Of course, those are not certainly disadvantages; they have
benefits too. I'd say the main advantage is that you start out looking a
LOT better.
>However, then we cut out anybody who does not run a GUI (and probably
>anybody not running windoze) which is kinda _very_ bad... :(
You need to set your own priorities, but perhaps it'll help to know that
there are plenty of graphical toolkits which don't require Windows. You'd
still be cutting out text-mode-only people, but I suspect that they're in
the minority (and yes, I never play Angband in graphical mode, but that's
only because there's no reason to).
>Anyway, it seems to be an issue we will have to decide amongst
>ourselves very soon....
Yup. Good luck :-).
>>>Also unfortunate is that it seems that it would be... time consuming..
>>>to attempt to add both ascii and tiles support from the start...
>>Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be to use ASCII tiles, as seen in
>>AngbandTk? Also allow different fonts to be used -- great Wyrms would be
>>a gothic D, not merely the bold D used by the ancient dragons.
>But this has the same problems as using tiles; (very likly) windoze
>only, lotsa work to do...
Much less work than using tiles -- you can generate the font-tiles a lot
quicker.
--
-William "Billy" Tanksley