![FA, others?] ID and pseudo-ID
Nick
FAangband, and would like some holes shot in it (particularly from people whose
initials are consecutive letters of the alphabet...).
ID
--
This is the simple bit. *ID* is gone. ID remains as common as before, and
fully identifies every item.
Pseudo-ID
---------
This will be split into two parts - workmanship and magic. To see why, consider
the
Changes to +/- modifiers
------------------------
+ to skill, + to damage and + to AC are going to come in two varieties -
workmanship and magic. These will be coded separately, but appear added
together to the player. The workmanship values will be of the order of -3 to +7
(or bigger for artifacts), and will be unchangeable for the item (although I may
allow improvement as a service at the Weaponsmith/Armourer). The magic values
will be potentially bigger in both directions, and increasable by Enchant
scrolls; typically items with a nett negative magical bonus would be cursed
(although I will probably alter curses a bit). Maybe only ego items would get a
magical +. So now we can return to the
Pseudo-ID
---------
All pseudo-ID will be instant. Workmanship pseudo-ID will be strong for
warriors (and rogues, assassins, etc), giving five possibilities, labelled
something like terrible, bad, average, good, excellent. The weak version of
this will just give good or bad. Magic pseudo-ID will be strong for mages and
necromancers and weak for warriors, and I'm not sure for the other classes.
Strong will give cursed, nonmagical or enchanted; weak just magical or
nonmagical. I'm not sure yet what chance an item will have to get pseudo-ID.
So a Holy Avenger would get magical pseudo-ID of enchanted (strong) or magical
(weak); it's workmanship pseudo-ID would probably be good, but could conceivably
be average (strong) or even bad (strong or weak). So it might get an
inscription of {good, magical} from a warrior.
I might also have scrolls of Item Sensing (or something) which would be fairly
low-level but not stocked in shops, and which would pseudo-ID the player's
entire inventory - this would only make sense if the chance of an item pseudoing
were not 100%.
This is not very well-formed yet, but I'd like it criticised now before I go too
much further down a dead end.
Nick.
--
"You are judging by social rules, and finding crime. I am considering an
elemental struggle, and finding no crime, just grim, primeval danger." - The
Midwich Cuckoos, John Wyndham
Phil Carmody
I think it's a great idea. I've long thought that something
like that would be of worth in a variant.
Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
Eddie Grove
> Pseudo-ID
> ---------
>
> All pseudo-ID will be instant. Workmanship pseudo-ID will be strong for
> warriors (and rogues, assassins, etc), giving five possibilities, labelled
> something like terrible, bad, average, good, excellent. The weak version of
> this will just give good or bad. Magic pseudo-ID will be strong for mages and
> necromancers and weak for warriors, and I'm not sure for the other classes.
> Strong will give cursed, nonmagical or enchanted; weak just magical or
> nonmagical. I'm not sure yet what chance an item will have to get pseudo-ID.
That looks perfectly reasonable. But ...
What's the point? Just be sure that you are not going to do a lot of work on
something trying to jazz up a broken game mechanic.
Why even have pseudo in the first place? The first step is to answer that
fully. Only when you have those arguments specified does it make sense to
worry about implementation.
I wrote something I think is relevant back when Andrew was inquiring about id.
When does pseudo occur?
When you see it, when you move on it, when you pick it up, or when you wield it?
Are you going to maintain the lunacy that a player can wield a fire-branded
sword, burn his opponents to death, and remain oblivious that it is magical?
A +10 to-hit bonus can boost some chars' chance of hitting AC 40 from 5% to 50%.
If you swing your sword much more accurately, do you remain oblivious as well?
Here's another direction. Why is it a good game mechanic to be told that you
are fire resistant when you quaff !rFire, but not when you wield an item that
grants rFire? Why not force the player to use ?id on most flavors? You
aren't ready to move on to other issues until you formulate the reasoning
behind that one.
I'm in favor of mixed objects, such as a ring that reduces fire damage but
also increases cold damage. How would such a ring fit into your scheme?
I think it is a poor game mechanic that if you wield the wrong object you
probably lose the game. If you remove that, would your view of pseudo change?
Eddie
Nick
> What's the point? Just be sure that you are not going to do a lot of work on
> something trying to jazz up a broken game mechanic.
>
> Why even have pseudo in the first place? The first step is to answer that
> fully. Only when you have those arguments specified does it make sense to
> worry about implementation.
I'm thinking of it as mainly an early game phenomenon, with ID
becoming plentiful
later (Rods of Perception will become less rare, plus whatever else it
takes). So
it's intended to give low level characters a bit of a clue as to what
might be worth
using.
> I wrote something I think is relevant back when Andrew was inquiring about id.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_frm...
Yes, I read this at the time, and it has influenced my thinking.
> When does pseudo occur?
> When you see it, when you move on it, when you pick it up, or when you wield it?
My answer is as you pick it up. Particularly with weapons - pick it
up, swish it
around a bit, form an opinion. For this reason I'm planning to do
away with sticky
curses on weapons, and have more imaginative and not immediately
evident
drawbacks - like hurting the player occasionally, or poisoning them,
or draining a
stat.
> Are you going to maintain the lunacy that a player can wield a fire-branded
> sword, burn his opponents to death, and remain oblivious that it is magical?
> A +10 to-hit bonus can boost some chars' chance of hitting AC 40 from 5% to 50%.
> If you swing your sword much more accurately, do you remain oblivious as well?
No, and no. I'm planning a blows counter that gets reset when you
switch weapons;
after a number of blows dependent on the to-skill value, the player
would get pseudo
based on whether that value is positive or negative (zero should be
covered by the
instant {nonmagical}. + to deadliness, brands and slays will be
detectable by
getting a blow which is better than the theoretical maximum for a
plain weapon of
the same quality workmanship.
> Here's another direction. Why is it a good game mechanic to be told that you
> are fire resistant when you quaff !rFire, but not when you wield an item that
> grants rFire? Why not force the player to use ?id on most flavors? You
> aren't ready to move on to other issues until you formulate the reasoning
> behind that one.
Yes, this is a good question. I want to extend pseudo to potions,
rings, etc (at
least for casters), but haven't worked out exactly how yet. You could
argue that
a potion gives "internal" RFire, whereas the item gives "external",
but I'm not sure
if I want to.
> I'm in favor of mixed objects, such as a ring that reduces fire damage but
> also increases cold damage. How would such a ring fit into your scheme?
I'm aiming to have these, so I need to answer that question. The
types of
magical pseudo need work - currently I'm thinking of categories like
cursed,
perilous, enchanted, interesting, but I'm not sure how they will all
fit together.
My general approach to items (particularly egos) is that there should
be less
types but more variability between types, so that less things become
automatically junk.
> I think it is a poor game mechanic that if you wield the wrong object you
> probably lose the game. If you remove that, would your view of pseudo change?
I agree; I'm still planning to have sticky curses on armour, but I
hope in such a
way that wearing is usually not disastrous. I don't want to remove
negative
effect items completely, but have them require some effort to recover
from using
them.
Nick.
Eddie Grove
> On Apr 1, 4:43 am, Eddie Grove <eddiegr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What's the point? Just be sure that you are not going to do a lot of work on
> > something trying to jazz up a broken game mechanic.
> >
> > Why even have pseudo in the first place? The first step is to answer that
> > fully. Only when you have those arguments specified does it make sense to
> > worry about implementation.
>
> I'm thinking of it as mainly an early game phenomenon, with ID
> becoming plentiful
> later (Rods of Perception will become less rare, plus whatever else it
> takes). So
> it's intended to give low level characters a bit of a clue as to what
> might be worth
> using.
I don't see the point, but I'll try to restrain myself. I did my best to pose
leading questions rather than say what I want you to do, but it's hard. :)
> > I'm in favor of mixed objects, such as a ring that reduces fire damage but
> > also increases cold damage. How would such a ring fit into your scheme?
>
> I'm aiming to have these, so I need to answer that question. The
> types of
> magical pseudo need work - currently I'm thinking of categories like
> cursed,
> perilous, enchanted, interesting, but I'm not sure how they will all
> fit together.
One simple approach is multiple orthogonal types of pseudo. So one type
measures how good something is, and another measures how bad something is, and
they are separate. You do not combine them. You report them separately. You
could further differentiate offense from defense. The challenge is to keep it
simple, easily and compactly expressed, and still useful.
There is also the fantasy trope of the fighter who goes into a weapon shop,
and picks out 2 or 3 weapons to try. That implies you can make a good
approximation from a distance. I would love for this to turn out to be the
model, but it is probably much too much to ask. In conjunction with no
selling and a good squelch implementation, this allows dungeon humanoids to
drop the kinds of things humanoids ought to be carrying without generating so
many items to id that the game becomes unplayable.
I'll be very interested to see what you decide is the best overall system.
Eddie
Nick
> I don't see the point, but I'll try to restrain myself. I did my best to pose
> leading questions rather than say what I want you to do, but it's hard. :)
Don't hold back on my account.
The point is probably that I don't like making too big a change at
once. Chucking *ID* and changing the pseudo system a bit seems like
about enough for now; I'm sure this won't be the end of the story.
> One simple approach is multiple orthogonal types of pseudo. So one type
> measures how good something is, and another measures how bad something is, and
> they are separate. You do not combine them. You report them separately. You
> could further differentiate offense from defense.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm aiming at.
> The challenge is to keep it
> simple, easily and compactly expressed, and still useful.
...and making it play nicely with squelch.
> There is also the fantasy trope of the fighter who goes into a weapon shop,
> and picks out 2 or 3 weapons to try. That implies you can make a good
> approximation from a distance. I would love for this to turn out to be the
> model, but it is probably much too much to ask.
Yes, I like the sound of that too - maybe weaker pseudo once you get
within 5 grids, then better when you pick it up.
> In conjunction with no
> selling and a good squelch implementation, this allows dungeon humanoids to
> drop the kinds of things humanoids ought to be carrying without generating so
> many items to id that the game becomes unplayable.
I'm still kind of attached to selling - also, it's possible that the
wilderness makes getting rid of it less easy. But I might try making
it a birth option.
> I'll be very interested to see what you decide is the best overall system.
Yes, so will I :)
Nick.
Andrew Sidwell
> I am in the process of coming up with a general ID and pseudo-ID scheme for
> FAangband, and would like some holes shot in it (particularly from people whose
> initials are consecutive letters of the alphabet...).
I don't fit that criterion, but here goes...
>
> ID
> --
> This is the simple bit. *ID* is gone. ID remains as common as before, and
> fully identifies every item.
>
> Pseudo-ID
> ---------
>
> This will be split into two parts - workmanship and magic. To see why, consider
> the
>
> Changes to +/- modifiers
> ------------------------
>
> + to skill, + to damage and + to AC are going to come in two varieties -
> workmanship and magic. These will be coded separately, but appear added
> together to the player. The workmanship values will be of the order of -3 to +7
> (or bigger for artifacts), and will be
I've been thinking about this bit in particular for a little while now
(as I'm sure you can tell), and it seems to me that the
workmanship/magic difference is best expressed in terms of [base AC vs.
magical AC] and [damage dice vs. bonuses]. The only problem with that
is acid damage reducing magical bonuses.
I would suggest that acid damage actually hurt the weapon dice, reducing
them by one point of average damage (EyAngband should have code to do
that); and also having it reduce armour's base AC. Keep backups of
those original values, though, so a scroll of repairing/store service
can return it back to its former glory.
Just a thought. I do think having three different elements to AC/damage
(base, magic, workmanship) is over-the-top, though (even if the player
only sees two elements, the law of leaky abstractions [1] means that
they'll still have to be aware that there are three).
[1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html
--
Andrew Sidwell
http://rephial.org/
Nick
> I've been thinking about this bit in particular for a little while now
> (as I'm sure you can tell), and it seems to me that the
> workmanship/magic difference is best expressed in terms of [base AC vs.
> magical AC] and [damage dice vs. bonuses]. The only problem with that
> is acid damage reducing magical bonuses.
Yes.
> I would suggest that acid damage actually hurt the weapon dice, reducing
> them by one point of average damage (EyAngband should have code to do
> that); and also having it reduce armour's base AC. Keep backups of
> those original values, though, so a scroll of repairing/store service
> can return it back to its former glory.
Yes, yes, yes. This is brilliant.
> Just a thought. I do think having three different elements to AC/damage
> (base, magic, workmanship) is over-the-top, though (even if the player
> only sees two elements, the law of leaky abstractions [1] means that
> they'll still have to be aware that there are three).
>
> [1]http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html
And yes again. My only quibble is that as a mathematician, I would
call "abstraction" something like "approximation", or "idealisation".
Nick.