Thoughts on Eddieband
Magnate
I'm using Eddie's patched version of 3.0.9b (called 3.0.9e or 3.0.9ef, I
don't think there is a difference). It doesn't change monsters, skills or
spells, and makes only a tiny number of changes to objects (adding an
obvious quality to each standard artifact which otherwise lacks one, for
ease of pseudo-ID). The changes focus on removing tedium, and "fixing" the
implementation of ID.
First, point-based generation is more generous. This tempts min-maxers like
me away from the autoroller, which previously could provide better starting
stats than point-based. Now it's the other way round: the maximum total
stats are about the same, with the added flexibility that point-based can
get to 18 base where the autoroller can reach only 17. This means my High
Elf Rogues can start with 18/30 STR instead of 18/20, which allows them to
get 3 swings with a 5lb weapon.
Second, you start with 500 gold after maxing out your point-based stats (and
another 100gp per point you don't use). This is instead of any equipment at
all - no weapons, armour, spellbooks or even lights or food. After a couple
of embarrassing starts where I forgot to buy food or light I got used to
this and would not now go back. It means I can always afford ?WoR, which is
essential for any kind of speed play (you cannot rely on finding one in the
dungeon, and it takes over 50k turns to climb up from 400' or so, which hits
your turncount hard). I usually buy a light weapon (for 2 or 3 swings) and
always a launcher and ammo. The only problem is that it has made me start
scumming for longbows - it's very tempting to restart if there isn't one
available. This probably constitutes evidence that the launcher damage
mechanic is overpowered, though I note Pete's amusing view of 3.1.0-svn
where it is nerfed: "If I wanted crap missile damage I'd play O".
So far, so good - far more convenience and flexibility when starting the
game. Once actually in the dungeon, I noticed that the changes to ID
actually impact the game a lot. ID is simply no longer a problem. Because
you can't sell to the stores for money (you can sell stuff for zero gold to
ID it), you don't fill up your inv with junk. You simply squelch anything
which turns out not to be useful, and almost everything can be ID'd or
partially ID'd (e.g. branded weapons have the brand revealed by pseudo but
not the plusses) without actually needing magical ID. Wands and staves
automatically reveal their charges once known (e.g. successfully used).
Jewelry pseudos to auto-ID if it has a pval. The only things I ended up
taking back to town to ID by selling were potions and scrolls (either
because I was too scared to try them, or because I had tried and they had
not been ID'd) and cursed jewelry (it is arguably a bug that you can still
sell something which has pseudo'd as cursed).
I'm not complaining - I like the fact that the game is about adventuring and
killing baddies instead of being about how can I scrounge up the money for
ID. But it does feel different - when I first returned to town I looked at
the _ID for sale and decided to buy more ?+dam for my longbow instead - it
just didn't seem necessary. Note that I am playing rogues who have strong
pseudo. I suspect the changes would be less helpful for classes with weak
pseudo.
Related to ID is the improvement to squelching. You're allowed to squelch
unaware items, so my pref files set all crapulent items (summoning,
haste/heal monsters, etc.) to be squelched. This means that as soon as I use
one, they're squelched from then on without me having to do anything. This
is excellent. The game also asks really intelligent questions, for example,
when I squelched a mace which had pseudo'd as {good} it asked me "squelch
all {good} blunt weapons?" (no, I said) and then "squelch all good blunt
weapons >=12lb with base damage <= 2d4?" and I thought, yes, thanks. The
upshot is that you don't have to tinker with squelch menus at all, you just
play the game and the questions adjust your settings as you want them. (You
can of course use them to correct things if you accidentally give the wrong
answer, or change your mind.)
These two (ID and squelch) are IMO huge improvements - the game feels much
more streamlined and enjoyable. I used to spend a *lot* of time faffing
about wondering what to take and what to drop (even looking up which of two
items would sell for more), and I'm glad that all that is over. It's also
made me make use of stuff I'd never normally waste pack space on - things
like -scare, -sleep and -confuse would be in my pack only to sell, and I'd
never bother to use them. (Incidentally they're still almost useless:
everything deeper than about 400' seems to save every time, so they're only
useful for a tiny tiny window of the game.)
Finally there's the change to gold drops because you can no longer sell
stuff. Before I tried Eddieband I was convinced that it would take longer to
amass gold (assuming 3x what was dropping in V) than it would to amass items
to sell, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I'm regularly scoring 3-4k on
my first trip, which is usually more than I would end up with after selling
stuff. Of course, this is partly due to the fact that trips are longer
because one's pack takes longer to fill up. This too makes the game more
enjoyable (assuming you enjoy being in the dungeon more than the shopping
part).
Overall it's a big improvement and I'm enjoying it so far. The only thing
I'm not yet used to is having numbers on the character screen instead of
"Good", "Superb" etc. I have no idea what any of the numbers mean, but I
guess I'll get used to it. It's probably in a spoiler somewhere.
Thanks to Eddie for the efforts.
CC
Eddie Grove
> Hi All,
>
> I'm using Eddie's patched version of 3.0.9b (called 3.0.9e or 3.0.9ef, I
> don't think there is a difference).
There is a big difference. 3.0.9e was a stable early release, and 3.0.9ef is
ongoing with lots more changes [especially improving squelch] and also bugs.
The intial gold, e.g., is a recent change, made after the "tales" I posted.
> Overall it's a big improvement and I'm enjoying it so far. The only thing
> I'm not yet used to is having numbers on the character screen instead of
> "Good", "Superb" etc. I have no idea what any of the numbers mean, but I
> guess I'll get used to it. It's probably in a spoiler somewhere.
Those are just raw numbers. Stealth of 4 means, well. 4 points more than
stealth of 0. Save of 75 means you save 75% of the time. Melee of 123 means
you roll a d123 when trying to hit. Etc.
Eddie
Eddie Grove
I guess I replied too soon to this message. Here are more points.
"Magnate" <n...@receiving.here> writes:
> partially ID'd (e.g. branded weapons have the brand revealed by pseudo but
> not the plusses) without actually needing magical ID. Wands and staves
> automatically reveal their charges once known (e.g. successfully used).
> Jewelry pseudos to auto-ID if it has a pval. The only things I ended up
Technically, I model so that brands and positive obvious pvals are revealed by
wielding, but a pseudo of a non-cursed item gives a "free wield" so you don't
have to bother wielding/unwielding. If a single flavor matches among possible
unaware flavors, awareness is given. If that ring is con+3 you will get the
pval [and awareness if unaware], but if it is con-3 it is cursed so you do not
get the info from a free wield.
> taking back to town to ID by selling were potions and scrolls (either
> because I was too scared to try them, or because I had tried and they had
> not been ID'd) and cursed jewelry (it is arguably a bug that you can still
> sell something which has pseudo'd as cursed).
[This selling for id is quite new.] I did that on purpose. Shopkeepers
should act based on what they know, not what you know. Either they should
accept cursed items or they should not, I don't care either way, but it should
be independent of what you know. Only I am right, and V and all the variants
have buggy behavior when shopkeepers pay different prices for id'ed stuff. :)
> pseudo. I suspect the changes would be less helpful for classes with weak
> pseudo.
It can be worthwhile for weak pseudoers to carry junky jewelry. E.g. a priest
might carry int rings until they pseudo, at which point all wielded avg stuff
is marked avg.
Eddie
Billy Bissette
news:878wvmy...@hotmail.com:
> "Magnate" <n...@receiving.here> writes:
>> taking back to town to ID by selling were potions and scrolls (either
>> because I was too scared to try them, or because I had tried and they
>> had not been ID'd) and cursed jewelry (it is arguably a bug that you
>> can still sell something which has pseudo'd as cursed).
>
> [This selling for id is quite new.] I did that on purpose.
> Shopkeepers should act based on what they know, not what you know.
> Either they should accept cursed items or they should not, I don't
> care either way, but it should be independent of what you know. Only
> I am right, and V and all the variants have buggy behavior when
> shopkeepers pay different prices for id'ed stuff. :)
Obviously a chance for some variant maker interested in role-playing
to get a bit of characterization into/from the game, at least for games
where you can still sell for gold.
Shop keepers would make appraisals independent of player knowledge.
Different shop keepers might have different specialties. All shop
keepers would have different chances of accurately identifying
different items, and perhaps in how accurate their judgement is.
These values might even change over play, as they get more
experience.
Haggling could be altered so that instead of just giving a new
value, the player can offer vague or exact praise or promises of
quality in order to justify a higher asking price. The player
could even make personal pleas (like need the money, or was almost
killed getting this, or the like). The same system could also be
used in buying objects from shops (trying to downplay their worth,
and even saying things like how common an item is or that other
shops stock it.)
Further, the shop keepers could track the player's accuracy in
these claims. If the player gives fairly accurate info, then the
shop keeper becomes trusting (and a player could try to take
advantage of this for a big payday on a claimed expensive item).
If the player is often wrong, then the shop keeper is less trusting.
If the player is making statements that seem obviously false (like
claiming to be poor while wearing an expensive kit or constantly
selling objects to that shop), then that would certainly cause
trouble.
Such haggling options could even be present in "auto-haggle"
form, where the player can choose to go with the default value
or try to sweeten a deal with claims. (For ease of play, pop up a
menu of general options for the player to choose from.)
If the player is constantly trying to cheat shops, then it could
even be reflected in his character info or in how townspeople
react.
Perhaps there might even be a "poker-face" stat, or another
use for Charisma, in your ability to get by with a lie, or how
much you can get by with.
And shop keepers themselves could have more individual
personalities in how they respond. Certain tactics might work
well on certain shop keepers, or work poorly. In addition,
some might be more willing to cheat the player than others.
Some might be more cautious than others in their estimations,
so that any errors on their part are more likely to favor them.
Perhaps an observant (or a con expert) character might be more
likely to notice when a shop keeper is bending the truth.
Though such a system would detract more from the whole dungeon
exploring part of the game by putting more focus on the whole
shop interaction part.
Jonker
> Hi All,
>
> I'm using Eddie's patched version of 3.0.9b (called 3.0.9e or 3.0.9ef, I
> don't think there is a difference).
How does one get one's hands on this 3.0.9ef?
--J
Magnate
Email Eddie and ask him for the source. Or, if he is happy for me to do
so, I can post a link to the patch and the .deb I made (the patch simply
makes it easier to apply his changes without needing the whole source
tree). If you're not a Linux user and cannot compile from source I think
it will be difficult though.
CC
Eddie Grove
The code isn't ready. There are bugs, some introduced on purpose. Some of
the code is, frankly, embarassing. It is alpha, intended to let me playtest
the ideas. I really fear to distribute it. I've let out buggy code before,
and people came back years later complaining or asking for fixes.
OTOH, it is so much more enjoyable than V309 I find V309 unplayable. So I
have been unable to say "no" to anyone who requests it. If you want to
distribute a .deb patch go ahead.
My plan for the next week is to download a C compiler for Windows and learn
how to produce a .exe.
Eddie "I don't yet do Windows"
andres zanzani
thanks
BHH
Magnate
[Eddie said]
>OTOH, it is so much more enjoyable than V309 I find V309 unplayable. So I
>have been unable to say "no" to anyone who requests it. If you want to
>distribute a .deb patch go ahead.
[you said]
> link to deb package would be wonderful!
http://www.terminalarrogance.com/angband_3.0.9ef-2_i386.deb
Please read the Debian changelog after install for details of Eddie's
changes and mine (mine are basically the -r switch and new randart code;
Eddie's are legion).
CC
andres zanzani
>> link to deb package would be wonderful!
>
> http://www.terminalarrogance.com/angband_3.0.9ef-2_i386.deb
>
> Please read the Debian changelog after install for details of Eddie's
> changes and mine (mine are basically the -r switch and new randart code;
> Eddie's are legion).
>
> CC
>
BHH
Eddie Grove
> "andres zanzani" <azan...@gmail.com> wrote
> > Magnate ha scritto:
> >> Jonker wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 28, 10:39 am, "Magnate" <n...@receiving.here> wrote:
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm using Eddie's patched version of 3.0.9b (called 3.0.9e or 3.0.9ef,
> >>>> I
> >>>> don't think there is a difference).
> >>>
> >>> How does one get one's hands on this 3.0.9ef?
> >>
> >> Email Eddie and ask him for the source. Or, if he is happy for me to do
> >> so, I can post a link to the patch and the .deb I made (the patch simply
> >> makes it easier to apply his changes without needing the whole source
> >> tree). If you're not a Linux user and cannot compile from source I think
> >> it will be difficult though.
>
> [Eddie said]
> >OTOH, it is so much more enjoyable than V309 I find V309 unplayable. So I
> >have been unable to say "no" to anyone who requests it. If you want to
> >distribute a .deb patch go ahead.
>
> [you said]
> > link to deb package would be wonderful!
>
> http://www.terminalarrogance.com/angband_3.0.9ef-2_i386.deb
Just to reiterate: THE CODE IS ALPHA.
I strongly recommend that you do not squelch any identified ego items.
Eddie
Magnate
You're too modest, Eddie - and you're thinking from a coder's perspective
rather than a player's. I've been playing it for tens of hours now, and the
only significant bug is the autopickup one which is inherited from 3.0.9b
There is only one minor buglet in the actual Eddieband changes, which is the
(G)eneralised squelch menu - you can't unsquelch items on this menu (though
you can override that by unsquelching the category on the (S) menu).
So yes, the warning about not squelching ego items is sound. I've not yet
got that far.
CC