EM TECH..Gottlieb Super Spin wont start.

[stanleystever]

Looking for some assistance on getting a Super Spin going.It lights up
as it should.Pressing the credit button does nothing.Yes there are
credits on the game.Manually touching the start relay resets everything
as it should (score reels to 0,ball 1.player 1 lit up)I touch the
outhole switch and the ball kicker fires.I touch the trough switch and I
hear it click and register.But the playfield is dead.No flippers or pops
or lane rollovers work.The ONLY thing I can get to work on the playfield
is the hole will kick out.In my tinkering I have noticed several
clues.Closing the coin door switches does not add credits.But I do hear
the little coin unit click as I close the coin door switches.Closing the
Y relay in the back of the head will add credits.The credit unit and
player units both step up and down without any stickyness.I have cleaned
all coin unit switches,coin door switches,start relay switches,etc.Im
running out of ideas here.Yes I have also checked all fuses.Thanx in
advance for any assistance.


--
stanleystever
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Garry]

There is a normally closed switch on the Game Over (Q) relay that
connects power to the playfield coils (except for the hole kicker). I
would start looking there. That probably won't cure your start button
issues though. When you manually trigger the S relay, does the credit
unit step down?


--
Garry

[stanleystever]

Hey Garry.I fiddled around with the n/c switches in the Q relay but
nothing changed.No credits come off the reel when starting a game with
the start relay.When I power the game on I notice 3 relays lock
on...Tilt Hold,Game over and first ball relays all engage.Manually
hitting the start relay disengages all 3 and engages the hold relay.Are
those 3 relays supposed to lock on upon giving the machine power?


--
stanleystever

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...

>
> Hey Garry.I fiddled around with the n/c switches in the Q relay but
> nothing changed.No credits come off the reel when starting a game with
> the start relay.When I power the game on I notice 3 relays lock
> on...Tilt Hold,Game over and first ball relays all engage.Manually
> hitting the start relay disengages all 3 and engages the hold relay.Are
> those 3 relays supposed to lock on upon giving the machine power?
>

Has this game been sitting for a long time? If so, there are likely many
switches in need of cleaning.
Does the PLAYER UNIT in the backbox step all the way around when you start a
game?

A good place to start is the AX relay, it controls a lot of the reset
function, including power to the playfield when it resets.

- Kerry

[otis]

Stanley,
It would probably help if you know what was suppose to happen and
when. There is a sequence that the game reset goes through. If
something does not reset then it won't go to the next step. So here
are the sequence of events. You might have cleaned some contacts but
that does not mean that there is continuity when they close. They may
look closed to the naked eye but there is not enough tension to make
contact and provide a closed circuit. They can be tricky.
1) Pressing the replay button with replays up will actuate "V" relay
(replay button relay). "V" relay locks in thru a motor 2B switch and
will actuate "S" relay.
2) Inserting a coin actuates "S" relay, also.
3) "S" relay will lock-in through its own switch and a motor 2B
switch.
4) "S" relay starts the motor running.
5) "AX" relay actuates through switches on "U" and "S" relays. "Q"
relay will de-energize when "AX" relay operates.
6) When "AX" relay is actuated the score units and player unit reset
sequence starts. The 1st player score units reset to zero through the
P3 switch stack on the player unit and motor switch 1A. When these
units reach zero the player unit steps once, the 2nd player score
units reset to zero through the P4 switch stack on the player unit
and motor switch 1A. When these units reach zero the player unit
steps until P5B opens. The score units and player unit are now reset.
7) When "P5A" on the player unit closes, "AX" and "BX" relays reset
through switches on motor 1A and motor 4C and switches on "U" and "R"
relays. The reset cycle is now complete.
8) Inserting additional coins or pushing the replay button will
actuate "CX" relay through switches on "U" and "S"
relays and a switch on motor 1D. The replay button circuit opens when
"CX" relay actuates.
9) Place the ball in the outhole. The ball return switch closes and
completes the circuit to "O" relay through the normally closed
switches of zero position "Bonus" unit, motor 1C, motor 2B, "Q" and
"AX" relays, "O" relay then locks in. Through switches on motor 4C,
motor 1A, "BX" and "O", the ball return coil actuates kicking the ball
onto the runway.
10) The remaining balls that enter the outhole are kicked across the
trough switch which pulls in "P" relay. "P" relay runs the motor.
Switches on "6B", "U", motor 2C, "P", "BX", and motor 1A advance the
"Player" unit the required number of steps determined by the "Player"
unit switches and "CX" relay.
11) The 3-5 Ball Adjustment changes the number of balls played per
game. The third or fifth ball leaving the playfield will trip the
"last ball" relay "BX" through switches on "6B", "U", rivets on the
player unit disc and "O" relay.

The end....JLC

[stanleystever]

Hey Kerry and JLC.Yes the game has been sitting quite a while.Yes the
player unit in the backbox does a complete circle upon startup.I did
read about that pesky AX relay and had already cleaned it but just
cleaned it again.Thanx for the startup sequence.I didnt know the credit
button actuated the V relay.I cleaned the V relay but it still doesnt
work.I will try a closer gap next.If I actuate the V relay it starts a
game abd takes a credit off the credit wheel.I closed the V relay
switches one by one and found it was the bottom one that starts the
game.Perhaps its not gapped close enough.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Hey Kerry and JLC.Yes the game has been sitting quite a while.Yes the
> player unit in the backbox does a complete circle upon startup.I did
> read about that pesky AX relay and had already cleaned it but just
> cleaned it again.Thanx for the startup sequence.I didnt know the credit
> button actuated the V relay.I cleaned the V relay but it still doesnt
> work.I will try a closer gap next.If I actuate the V relay it starts a
> game abd takes a credit off the credit wheel.I closed the V relay
> switches one by one and found it was the bottom one that starts the
> game.Perhaps its not gapped close enough.
>

For the replay button to work when credits are on the game, check:

1. N.C. switch on CX relay, orange-white & brown-white wires
2. Zero position switch on credit unit, brown-white & green-white wires
3. N.C. switch on W (2nd chute) relay, green-white & brown wires

The rest of the switches in the circuit are working because the S relay
holds in when you actuate it manually.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Wow Kerry.What fantastic directions.It was the n/c W relay green-white &
brown wires.It was open.So I bent it back to a closed position and the
game now starts with the start button.But it still only gets me to the
ball in the shooter lane with no playfield scoring.I can now watch and
see after pressing the credit button the V relay acuates (but does not
lock on) then I can see the start relay actuate and then the AX relay
actuates.So im getting closer it seems.

[stanleystever]

Here is something interesting.I can start a game with the credit button
now,but I cant push it twice to get a second player added.If I manually
actuate the CX relay it will add a second player but not deduct a
credit.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Here is something interesting.I can start a game with the credit button
> now,but I cant push it twice to get a second player added.If I manually
> actuate the CX relay it will add a second player but not deduct a
> credit.
>

After the PLAYER UNIT steps around (back to the home position), P5A switch
on the player unit, cam 5 closest to the cam, closes and resets the AX
relay.

Check:
1. P5A with yellow+black & slate+black wires
2. N.C. switch on FIRST BALL relay (U) with slate+black & yellow-blue-red
wires

The FIRST BALL relay should NOT be energized until a score is made on the
playfield.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Ok I was screwin around with the AX relay and I held the top switch on
the shortest stack together (red-yellow.red-yellow) and hit bumpers and
rollovers and flippers and all worked.I heard lots of chimes but no
points were scoring.I eventually blew the primary fuse with all this
testing.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Ok I was screwin around with the AX relay and I held the top switch on
> the shortest stack together (red-yellow.red-yellow) and hit bumpers and
> rollovers and flippers and all worked.I heard lots of chimes but no
> points were scoring.I eventually blew the primary fuse with all this
> testing.
>

Just manually reset the AX relay. It latches in both positions, just
latch/trip it into the other position.
... after you replace the fuse.

A coil must have locked on. Watch out for that. Check around for a hot
coil next time the fuse blows.

Advance the score reels off zero manually and make sure they all reset
correctly when you start a game.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Kerry.I checked both of those switches (p5A AND THE N/C ON THE FIRST
BALL RELAY SLATE-BL & YELLOW BLUE RED) I cleaned both switches and
madesure they were closed.All seems fine with both.

I think I blew the fuse because ive got all these relays out and I think
two were touching.I blew a second fuse while testing the AX relay.That
was my last 5A slo blo fuse so I put a 5A fast blow in and its working
fine.I moved the touching relays and its not blowing fuses now.So when I
start a game I see the AX relay engage then disengage.So I engage it and
it latches and releases and the score motor turns slightly.It wont stay
engaged.I did try advancing the score reels earlier tonight and they
reset.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

5A fast is safe, but won't last long running coils.

So... everything's resetting and then AX is resetting. Does it kick a ball
out into the shooter lane then?
You shouldn't have to re-engage AX, it's job is done once it resets.

I'm a little confused by "the score motor turns slightly." Once the SCORE
MOTOR starts it should keep running to the end of a cycle (1/3 turn) through
it's own switch 1C.

If you're still not getting power to the playfield, check TILT HOLD (H) N.O.
switch with red-white and red-black wires.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

I think it's gotta be in this AX relay.I was playing around with that
first switch (red-yellow & red-yellow) on the shortest switch stack on
the AX relay and if I touch them together the score motor turns and a
chime rings.I can operate flippers and pops etc while holding this
switch together.But the score motor keeps running too.No points are
being scored though.I confirmed that all score reels reset upon
startup.The first player reels reset followed by the second player reels
resetting.

[stanleystever]

The score motor turning slightly was just when I was re-engaging the AX
relay.As it released the score motor stopped.I will check that tilt hold
relay.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> I think it's gotta be in this AX relay.I was playing around with that
> first switch (red-yellow & red-yellow) on the shortest switch stack on
> the AX relay and if I touch them together the score motor turns and a
> chime rings.I can operate flippers and pops etc while holding this
> switch together.But the score motor keeps running too.No points are
> being scored though.I confirmed that all score reels reset upon
> startup.The first player reels reset followed by the second player reels
> resetting.
>

The AX relay controls a lot of things during reset and then it powers the
playfield through a switch on H and Q after reset completes. It's not
surprising that if you short some switch contacts out you can make things
happen.

Adjust AX the best you can. Start a game and see what happens, or doesn't
happen. Given that, a set of switches can be identified from the schematics
that control that function. My two cents worth.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Yes still no power to the playfield.I checked the tilt hold relay.I
picked it up and it felt somewhat energized.But the game was not on
tilt.If I actuate it then the tilt light comes on.So I checked that n/o
switch and I couldnt tell with my eyes if it was open or closed.So I
gently seperated the contacts with my finger and I felt it
de-energize.The coil was warm too so it was energized.But opening them
up did not restore power to the playfield.The only thing I have done so
far to restore power to the playfield was touching those switches on the
AX relay.

[stanleystever]

Kerry do you know the switch wire colors on the Q relay that give the
playfield power? I would like to give that a real good look.

[Garry]

I can't tell you the wire colors on the Q relay because my wiring is
dirty and faded. But here is how it is on my machine:

The Q relay has two NC switches. The middle switch at the front cuts the
power to the ball return relay, and the outside (furthest from the relay
coil) switch at the back cuts power to the playfield. One of the wires
appears to be red/white. Hope this helps.


--
Garry

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Kerry do you know the switch wire colors on the Q relay that give the
> playfield power? I would like to give that a real good look.
>

N.C. switch on Q, red-yellow (tracer) and red & white (mottled).

The rest of the power path is:
1. N.C. switch on AX (after it resets), red-black and red-yellow wires
2. N.O. switch on H, red-white and red-black wires

You haven't mentioned anything about tilt, so make sure the game isn't
tilted.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Kerry.Thanx for helping me isolate the exact switch in the AX relay that
supplies power to the playfield (as well as the other 2 switches you
listed) It ended up being that AX relay switch.It looked closed but
needed a little bending to give it a good connection.So it's almost
there.I can see the light at the end of the tunnel,I think.Haha.Ok,so
now I have power to the playfield.The flippers,bumpers,kickers etc all
work...BUT...it looks like I must have a stuck switch somewhere because
when I start a game the AA relay (Left roto target relay) keeps engaging
and disengaging and the score motor keeps running.At the beginning of
the cycling I hear a chime,then they both keep cycling and no more
chimes.So I think that is telling me there is a point scoring switch
stuck probably relating to the left roto target.It is very hard to get
at those switches as they are blocked with the roto unit.I can activate
flippers,pops,rollovers etc while all this cycling is going on.Does this
look like a left roto target switch is stuck to you? Are there any other
switches that could cause the AA relay to stay engaged?

[stanleystever]

I was able to see the switch behind the left roto target and it is not
even close to being closed.The playfield ''Hit'' (scores left roto
target value) is flashing as well.Im not sure what direction to look
now.

[Garry]

Stanley,

The left stand up target is wired in parallel to the left roto target
and scores the same value via the AA relay. Check that it isn't closed.


--
Garry

[Kerry Imming]

"Garry" <rov...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:Garry....@rrgparchive.com...

>
> Stanley,
>
> The left stand up target is wired in parallel to the left roto target
> and scores the same value via the AA relay. Check that it isn't closed.
>

As Garry points out, there are two switches that energize LEFT ROTO TARGET
relay (AA)
1. N.O. left roto target switch with maroon+white wire and ?* wires
2. Make-Make switch on left target with maroon+white and ?* wires
* ? There is an error on the schematics and this wire color isn't shown.

AA runs the score motor, so fixing the switch should fix that too.

You're getting close, hang in there.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Thanx Garry and Kerry.I quickly checked the left standup target switch
and it is well open and not the culpret.Shining light into the left roto
target area seems to show it is not closed either.Im off to work now and
will not be able to do further investigations until late tonight.


--
stanleystever

[stanleystever]

I was just thinking.Since both target switches seem ok,could it be
switches in the actual AA relay? Keep in mind that at the beginning
after starting a game there is one chime and no points are ever
scored.All flippers and solenoids work but again there are never any
points being scored.

[Kerry Imming]

"stanleystever" <juvent...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:stanleyste...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> I was just thinking.Since both target switches seem ok,could it be
> switches in the actual AA relay? Keep in mind that at the beginning
> after starting a game there is one chime and no points are ever
> scored.All flippers and solenoids work but again there are never any
> points being scored.
>

Possibly, if the AA switch for the lock-in circuit were stuck closed.
Check N.O. switch on AA with slate-black wire the switch. The other side of
the switch has the same unlabeled (on the schematic) wire.

Also, strips of business card are very helpful for insulating the switches
to make sure they're open. Slide the strip(s) between the contacts and keep
them there until you find the one that breaks the circuit.

- Kerry

[stanleystever]

Thanx Kerry for the business card trick.I applied it and was able to
figure out that it is not the AA relay.Something I noticed is that it is
the center chime that chimes once upon all this happening.So I guess
thats the 100 point chime.I think my next course of action will to be to
check EVERY playfield switch that scores 100 points.I also notice I am
not able to add credits from the coin door switches.I have to go to the
back of the head and manually trip the Y relay.Im not sure if that is
related to this startup problem.

[stanleystever]

Ok,so I went through all the playfield switches and all seem ok.I then
moved to the relays in the back of the head and found the M relay (100
point) is stuck on.I used the business card trick and found the switches
to be fine in that realy.I then went downstream and found the 100 point
chime coil was stuck on.I pulled one of the coil wires and it disengaged
the coil but didn't stop the AA or M relays from locking.Any ideas as to
where I should look next? Could it be a score motor switch?

[Brad]

I'd check the switches under the playfield..some are used for scoring.
You might have one that is stuck closed.


--
Brad

[stanleystever]

Thanx Brad.I think you got it.I just removed both playfield jones
connectors and nothing was running or clacking.So it MUST be a switch
under the playfield somewhere.The 100 point relay and 100 point chime
coils are not locked on now.I think they only lock on when I manually
score switches while all this cycling is going on.I tried another test
and that was,while the AA relay was clacking,or,engaging and
disengaging,I manually held it open after one of it's disengages and the
score motor stopped cycling and the flashing lights on the playfield (a
bumper light,the rollover lane lights at the top of the playfield and
the ''hit'' light on the left roto target) all stopped flashing.I
thought I checked all playfield switches,including the dampening
switches,but I must be missing something.I will go through them all
again and report back.


--
stanleystever

[Garry]

The only switches that activate the AA relay are the left roto target
switch and the left stand up target switch. Give both of these a good
going over. If there is a good gap, look at the solder tabs on the
bottom of each switch. They may be bent and touching. The only other
likely suspect is the lock in switch on the AA relay. It will be the
switch that has a short wire connected directly to the relay coil. Once
again, check both the switch gap and the solder tabs.


--
Garry

[stanleystever]

Thanx Gary.I never knew about checking the solder tabs at the bottom of
the switches.Both switches have a very good gap and I even checked the
dampening switches.In all my testing I noticed something else.While this
cycling is going on,I am able to manually score points from all
playfield switches except two.One is the switch for the clacking AA
relay (left roto target) and something verystrange is the fact I can
manually hit the middle roto target and see the center roto target relay
engage and it scores the points as it should.But when I hit the right
roto target,I see and hear the left roto target relay engage but it
doesnt go beyond that,meaning,no points are scored.Im not sure if that
is a clue to something.I will check the solder tabs on both switches
tomorrow as well as the lock in switch on the AA relay and report back
my findings.


--
stanleystever

[stanleystever]

Ok that issue is resolved.Thanx Gary for the solder tab trick.I had
mentioned that I had checked both switches,but don't have the experience
to know to look down at the solder tab area.So it was actually below the
actual solder tabs,the wires just below the solder tabs were slightly
touching.So I bent them apart and the AA relay and score motor are quiet
now.I played a couple games and noticed some scoring issues.Here is what
happens.I start a one player game.I can score anything in the 1000's and
it scores correctly.But no 10's or 100's are scoring.When I hit my first
10 point and 100 point playfield switch,I hear a chime.Any further hits
to a 10 or 100 point switch have no chime.Losing the ball scores the
bonus as it should (1000's) but after the ball is shot across the trough
switch into the shooter lane,I get the 10 and 100 points that chimed,on
player 2's score.So after playing the first ball and hitting one or more
10 or 100 point switches,player 2's score will be 110 after the second
ball is served into the shooter lane.Then after playing the second ball
and hitting at least one 10 and 100 point switch,player 2 will now have
220.So at the end of a 5 ball game,player 1's score will be in the
thousands with 000 at the end as those reels never move.And player 2
will have 550 providing at least one 10 and 100 point switch was hit
each ball.I also noticed I am not able to start a 2 player game.I start
a game and everything resets and the ball is served into the shooter
lane but further pushes to the credit button do nothing.Im not sure if
these issues are related.

[Frank Furhter]

Please folks, end your thread titles on help needed or broken and no
clue with FIXED.

[Garry]

Ok. First of all, have you confirmed that the 10s and 100s score reels
actually work? Manually advance them to a number other than zero and
start a game to see if they reset. If that is all good, then trigger a
few 10 and 100 point targets, go to the back of the machine and check
the M and N relays. I suspect you will find they are both locked on. It
sounds like the end-of-stroke switches on the 10 and 100 score reels are
not opening to release the M and N, and they are being released as the
player unit passes over the player 2 position. Looking at the score reel
from the underside, you should see two switches: one closed and one
open. Check that the closed switch opens as you engage the plunger. You
must work the score reel by pulling back on the nylon lug on the side of
the assembly. Do not try to rotate the score reel by grabbing and
turning. Oh, and check that the solder tabs aren't touching.


--
Garry

[Garry]

One other thing: Check that the switch contacts on the M and N are clean
and making good contact.

[stanleystever]

Thanx for the great info Gary.Ok,the score reels in question both reset
upon startup.I hit a 10 and 100 point switch and you are correct,both
the M and N relays were locked on.I took out the score reels and
manually advanced them each once and watched as the EOS switch opened.So
what's happening here is that the score reels aren't getting the pulse
to move.I watched the relays while I scored the appropriate point value
on the playfield,and the reels didn't even attempt to move.I confirmed
both score reel coils are fine with a dmm.So it looks like I need to
look upstream from the score reels as it looks like they are not getting
the pulse to advance.I checked for wires off and solder tabs connected
but all seem fine.Oh and I did check for sluggishness in the reels and
the 10's is quite sticky and will need to be cleaned,but the 100's had
no stickyness in it at all.So I don't see stickyness being the issue
here.


--
stanleystever

[stanleystever]

FIXED.Ok I went back out and fiddled with it.I manually tried closing
each switch on the M relay until I found the one that advanced the score
reel.It was the switch in the shortest stack (2 switches) closest to the
coil.So it looked like it was closing and making good contact,but
apparently not.I bent it a bit tighter and the score reels now score as
they should! One final issue is the fact that I can't start a 2 player
game.Any ideas on what switch controls that?

[stanleystever]

Ok I fiddled some more and am now able to hear a clicking sound when I
press the credit button a second time.But it still won't light up the
second player.I can manually trip the CX relay and it will add the
second player,but it doesn't take a credit off the reel.I am looking for
how to trip the CX relay by hitting the credit button.I guess in theory
I could open the front door and manually trip the CX relay every time I
want to play a 2 player game,but it would be a good learning experience
to know how this works.

[Garry]

It could be one of two switches: The make/break switch on the U relay
(most likely) or the outside switch at the score motor position 1D.


--
Garry

[Garry]

Before you go checking those switches I would check that the U relay is
not engaged after reset. It should not lock in until 10 or 100 points
are scored. This serves two purposes: if the first ball drains without
scoring, you get a second chance because the ball in play is blocked
from advancing by the relay switches. Secondly, it blocks you from
adding player 2 if player 1 already has points on the board.

As an aside, there is a design flaw with this game. Scoring 1000 points
does not activate the U relay. So, if the first ball fails to hit
anything, and rolls down the outlane, you get 3000 + 3 bonus AND you get
your first ball again! It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

[stanleystever]

Wow Gary! Mind boggling information.It was that exact make/break switch
on the U relay.It wasn't making good contact.I would have never thought
to look there.I was looking at the P relay (add player unit relay) and
the CX relay (second player relay).I did check the U relay after startup
and found it was not engaged.Also that is very informative and in depth
info about being able to score 1000's and still get the ball back after
draining.I have never heard of that before.I wish I knew that back when
I was a kid in the arcades.There is one last issue with this machine.And
again,this is more of a learning tool than anything else.I can't add
credits to the game with either coin door switch.I have been adding them
from the Y relay.I used to hear a click in the coin unit behind the
score motor when I pressed a coin door switch but that seems to be gone
now.I can,and will,bypass this by putting the game on free play,but I am
curious as to how this works.Thanx.Steve.


--
stanleystever

[Garry]

That clicking noise behind the score motor will be the DY (2 coins 3
plays) relay. It is an "AS" type relay and they are notorious for
sticking and are extremely fiddly to pull apart and clean. If you are
going to set the machine to free play then I would not bother with it.

The second coin chute is always set for 2 coins 3 plays, but the first
chute can be set the same, or alternatively 1 coin 1 play. There is a 2
position plug/socket on the bottom board near the fuses which changes
this. If you are lucky, the label will still be attached: 1ST CHUTE
ADJUSTMENT.


--
Garry

[stanleystever]

Thanx for explaining that for me Garry.I will take your advice and leave
be and put the game on free play.The only thing left is to clean and
re-rubber the playfield.Thanx Garry and Kerry for the awesome detailed
directions in bringing this Super Spin back from the dead!


--
stanleystever