Three Grumpy Old Men (TGOM) review... World Panty Tour! (WPT)
TheKorn
World Pantry Tour! Wild Pussy Teacher?
Wait, wait... World Poker Tour! Yeah!
<YBX> I have fishhooks. What do you have, Korn?
<Korn> I have ace-nine off suit. Flip ‘em over, Wolffy.
<Wolffy> I have BLACKJACK!!
<Korn> What? What’s the matter with you? We’re playing *POKER*!!
Disclaimer: Blah blah blah… The standard TGOM disclaimer applies.
We’re as bored of writing it as you probably are reading it.
<Korn> In summary, the STD (standard TGOM disclaimer) says that these
were test machines, early (version 0.0!) software, things will change
later in production, and that as a review group, we’ve progressed
mentally to the level of fourth graders.
<Wolffy> But fourth graders who know how to use the internet!
<YBX> Don’t most fourth graders these days know how to use the internet
these days?
<Wolffy> Oh yeah. Well, fourth graders who know how to use the internet
AND like to play pinball!
<Korn> Anyway, you’ve been forewarned. If you want to read a *full*
TGOM disclaimer, check out our NASCAR review, available here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/5854d1
fc85e735cf/ca01dd18fd0256a1?lnk=st&q=tgom+nascar&rnum=1
&hl=en#ca01dd18fd0256a1
<YBX> So are all the squares gone?
<Korn> Who cares… :)
<Yancy> The game is pretty good. THE END.
<Yancy> AHh, just kidding.
<Korn> Hey, well, to start off with, we have the new Stern system!
<Yancy> Well the only thing I noticed about the new stern system is that
the high score table code is broken!
<Wolffy> That’s what’s expected.
<Korn> What do you mean that’s what’s expected!?? This isn’t LOUIS’
system! It’s Lyman’s!
<Wolffy> Not the broken code, the not noticing anything about the
system.
<Korn> Oh come on, you can notice some things about the new system. The
new system is called “SAM”. Nobody knows what SAM stands for, other than
Simple Ass Multiplexer.
<Wolffy> So, sticking with the positives, the game stars Mike and
Vince...
<Korn> Can’t really heat on a game for starring the best two names in
the universe...
<Yancy> Hey!
<Korn> If only your name was Nancy… In any case, it doesn’t sound
glamorous, but I’m pretty astounded at the sheer *lack* of bugs we’ve
encountered. Considering this is a whole new system from the ground up,
rewriting literally everything from ground zero, I’d expect to find at
least one major bug and almost no minor bugs.
<Wolffy> And unlike NASCAR, the game just didn’t reboot in the middle of
testing it.
<Korn> That’s always a major plus to playing on location!
<Yancy> There’s a difference between unfinished code and buggy code.
While there is still some unfinished code in WPT (v. 1.04 for this
review), there weren’t many bugs.
<Korn> Instant info is in pretty dire need of… info. “II #1” and “II #
2” doesn’t mean much, especially since it’s the same no matter when you
look at it. :)
<Korn> But in general you can really play this game without fear of
hitting crazy bugs, like the T3 “all lights flash and game dies” bug, or
the LOTR “all lights die” bug, or the the NASCAR “always lit special”
bug, or the…
<Wolffy> Or the Sopranos that had ball save bugs galore.
<Yancy> We get it already!
<Wolffy> So putting all the cards on the table, we have playfield
layout, art, sound, and playability to talk about. Traditionally, we
start with the playfield layout.
<Korn> So you’re saying that’s a good reason *not* to? :)
<Wolffy> OK, let’s go over the layout. At the lower left we have the
light lock target.
<Korn> This target’s insert is hard wired into 110V AC, since it never
turns off.
<Yancy> I bet it turns off when all the locks are lit.
<Korn> Yeah, yeah…
<Wolffy> Above the lock target, the entire left side of the playfield is
eight drop targets.
<Korn> Eight SWEET drop targets. These aren’t your old Stern style drop
targets, which felt like you were bashing coke cans with bowling pins.
These feel silky smooth, and you can sweep these. They feel like old
style WMS or 1980-era Bally drop targets.
<Wolffy> No more riveting the artwork to the target, a la Sopranos.
Above the drops is the one and only orbit in the game, the left orbit.
Not to be confused with the short track.
<Yancy> Wrong sport!
<Wolffy> The next shot is the left ramp / scoop. It’s a wide scoop, but
I found it easier to hit it with the left flipper than the right flipper.
<Korn> Why?? I didn’t have any problems hitting it with either flipper.
<Yancy> Neither did I!
<Wolffy> There are two lane dividers between the orbit and the scoop.
To the left of the scoop is this perfect straight piece of metal, if the
ball doesn’t make it entirely up the scoop, this guides it straight down
the middle.
<Korn> That’s a bit setup dependent. If the game is leaning to the
left, then yeah that rejection is going SDTM.
<Wolffy> This scoop also troubles me because if you’re aiming at the
shot, and hit the left side of the scoop…
<Yancy> …then you MISSED! You expect a scoop to Hoover up shots??
<Wolffy> To me, it seems more like it should have more of a Medeval
Madness direct the ball SOMEWHERE, that isn’t the drain.
<Yancy> For the record, I never had a drain out of the scoop, but I’ll
take your word for it. Boag syndrome.
<Wolffy> The next shot is the pain in the ass to hit popper.
<Yancy> The pain in the ass to SEE popper. It’s hard to stick that
shot.
<Korn> Yeah, balls tend to hit that shot and bounce out, sometimes
frustratingly so. The theory is that since the popper is all the way at
the back of the playfield, that there isn’t any “slop” room for the ball
to hit a wall, then settle in the popper.
<Wolffy> Just to the right of the popper, we have four stand up targets
that act like virtual roll overs!
<Yancy> Complete with lane change! Just like Operation Blunder!
<Wolffy> In front of the stand ups we find three very dimly lit jets.
<Yancy> Well, it *is* just past Christmas, I’m sure there was a sale on
Christmas lights at FIM.
<Wolffy> In front of THERE, we have four more drop targets, which ummm,
drop.
<Yancy> These drop targets have the normal rubber ring behind them, but
frustratingly, also a big metal bar.
<Korn> It looks like the area was intended to have the traditional dual
metal standoff / star posts behind them, since the playfield was drilled
for them. Unfortunately, it appears as though these were costed out.
<Yancy> *thunk* *drain* This metal bar robs the player of all the
satisfying bounce you normally get by whacking drop targets that are
already down.
<Wolffy> To the right of the drops we find the Poker Corner (no I’m not
going to award you anything) kickout.
<Korn> It’s a scoop.
<Yancy> It’s a hole!
<Wolffy> It dumps balls into the jet bumpers. Because to the other side
of it is a ramp. The Right ramp to be exact.
<Yancy> It’s a long ramp that leads to the upper playfield. Yes that’s
right, upper playfield.
<Wolffy> To the right of that is the right “Don’t call me an orbit” shot.
Hitting this shot gives you a couple of feeds, first it can hit the one
way gate so hard it comes rolling back down the shot or it will just roll
around the jet bumpers for a while. Below this shot is the last bank of
four drop targets, which…. Well, uhmmmm…. Drop.
<Wolffy> This game does have an upper playfield.
<Yancy> Upper playfield? Yes an upper playfield.
<Wolffy> Well ok it is not so much an upper playfield as it is an upper
plexi-glass. And that’s a good thing because with it being clear you
have a great view of some light lacking jet bumpers.
<Korn> Didn’t we already say that?
<Yancy> It bears repeating.
<Wolffy> The top side of this playfield has from left to right: an opto
on the popper exit, 2 stand up targets, the bars for Ace In The Hole, one
more stand up target and then the hurry up exit back down into the jet
bumpers.
<Korn> And it has the exit from the right ramp.
<Yancy> Featuring “Stabby: The Wonder Post”!
<Korn> Stabby is this neat little feature that takes a playful stab at
the ball when you feed the ramp the wrong way, never actually succeeding
at catching the ball.
….
<Wolffy> After pushing start, your World Poker Tour experience begins
with the world’s most useless manual plunger part deux.
<Korn> I was considering taking the world’s most useless manual plunger
award away from NASCAR. I think Steve and Pat had a bet going on who
could design the world’s most useless manual plunger…
<Yancy> But Steve underestimated Pat’s ability to design useless things.
<Wolffy> DDYH!
<Korn> But the manual plunger “sort-of” serves a purpose. It selects
which skill shot you take, like LOTR.
<Yancy> Except in LOTR the strength of the plunge matters too, but here
it is just the timing. The auto-plunger would suffice.
<Wolffy> The plunger feeds a VUK which sends the ball…
<Korn> Sends ALL balls…
<Wolffy> …to the upper plexi-field. Before the VUK kicks the ball here
there are three choices on the skill shot:
<Korn> Win, place, or show?
<Wolffy> Advance Hold ‘Em, Mystery, and Skill Flip. The first two will
hold the ball in the VUK for a little DMD animation.
<Korn> Get used to seeing that!
<Yancy> At least you can hit both flippers to cancel the animation… oh,
wait… no you can’t.
<Wolffy> If you choose Skill Flip, the game lights the upper playfield
left VUK exit. Hit this to earn the skill shot.
<Korn> The upper PF plays really, really well. The lock shot also known
as the Ace in the Hole is actually left over hardware from Elvis. This
was going to be the jail house in Elvis.
<Yancy> Jail Multiball! (Thankfully that name was removed in later WPT
code.)
<Korn> But the action on the upper playfield is pretty fun. Even though
it looks like you could fit the state of Texas in-between the flippers,
due to the really bouncy rubber it is not nearly as bad as it looks.
<Yancy> Yeah they didn’t put metal behind that rubber! You can usually
let the ball bounce back and forth two or three times before taking your
perfect swing at the ball.
<Korn> And amazingly, even though the plexi-field is that far up the
field, slap saves work on it! You have to knock the game into the middle
of next week, but it does work.
<Yancy> So if I go back next week does that mean the fluorescent you
knocked out will be back on?
<Korn> NO! (After I slapped it like hell the fluorescent apparently
broke.)
<Wolffy> Before draining off the plexi-field you can hit the stand-ups to
start the WPT hurry up, usually starting at 1 million, but to collect it
you have to hit the escape tunnel to collect it. What fun is that? It’s
more fun to bang on the Ace in the Hole.
<Korn> And the only time I hit those stand up targets is because I can’t
get a shot on Ace in the Hole, and if I don’t shoot the ball is going to
drop off the field.
<Wolffy> On two machines I have noticed that the way the hurry up shot is
designed there is a risk that the ball won’t break the opto beam to
collect the reward.
<Korn> The game makes a nice descending power chord when you drain off
the plexi-field, reminiscent of Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure.
<Wolffy> Now that we are on the lower playfield one thing you will notice
is that all the shots are as far away from the flippers as they could
possibly be. This leaves vast amounts of space to hit the drop targets.
<Korn> It’s open in the same way that Attack From Mars is, in that there
is no real middle of the playfield. You JUST have shots around the
periphery.
<Wolffy> This feels like a bit of a fan design.
<Korn> You CANNOT call that a fan design; a two level playfield is
automatically not a fan design!
<Yancy> Sure it is! It’s a two layer fan cake! What disappoints me is
it that it plays like a fan without the flow. Too much ball stoppage.
<Korn> Amen to that! If you are expecting the king of flow on this game
you are going to be severely disappointed.
<Wolffy> The ramps obey the rule of three. To advance the tournament
cities in the game you need to hit the ramps to collect the flop, the
turn, and the river cards.
<Korn> These ramp shots are used to play the Texas Hold ‘Em game.
<Wolffy> Each time you hit the ramp the ball will be stopped to show a
DMD animation.
<Korn> This is really unfortunate, because if you really want to advance
cities quickly you need to do the left ramp, right ramp combo (a la T2).
But the problem is you can’t do the combo (a la T2) because the ball is
continuously stopped by Stabby...
<Yancy> … the WONDER POST!!
<Korn> Stabby’s sole purpose in life is to STOP THE BALL when you make a
right ramp shot. And unfortunately, Stabby’s parents didn’t practice
safe sex, because Stabby has a bastard sibling on the left ramp,
Stoppy...
<Yancy> ... the Flow Killer!
<Korn> So with a combination of Stabby and Stoppy you have the ball just
sitting motionless on the playfield for every single ramp shot for three
seconds. Since you’re going to be shooting the ramps a LOT, that means a
LOT of dead ball time.
<Yancy> When you put it that way it is extremely frustrating. Every non-
multiball ramp shot stops the ball.
<Korn> What’s really frustrating about that is that it is COMPLETELY
USELESS. The ball stops so the game shows you what cards you get in
Texas Hold ‘em. You can’t control or influence what cards you get in
Hold ‘em, so essentially the game is stopping the ball to show you the
results of a random number generator.
<Yancy> Imagine if MM stopped the ball everytime you hit the Peasant
Ramp just to play a sound bite.
<Peasants> They’ve taken our flow!
<Korn> Furthermore, the rules here are completely backwards. In
multiball, when you really wish you could dump a ball somewhere,
ANYWHERE, for a few seconds the game decides instead to raise all the
posts and let the balls flow freely. And when you have a single spot of
focus (i.e. non-multiball), the game stops the ball and you have dead
ball time.
<Yancy> The game doesn’t use the posts when they would be useful to give
you a breather. Speaking of multiball, the game has umteen of them.
<Korn> Let’s see... there is Ace in the Hole multiball, there is No Limit
multiball, Poker hands multiball, ...
<Yancy> All-in multiball, and the regular modes also known as I Can’t
Believe It’s Not Multiball.
<Wolffy> I don’t find this playfield layout to be very mulitball
friendly. The openness of the main playfield allows for more ball
collisions than normal. The lack of places to put a ball out of the way
doesn’t help. Finally, for some reason (more so on this game) when one
ball is draining the rest are following right behind.
<Yancy> I’ll agree there aren’t many places to stuff the balls in
multiball but the wide open playfield keeps the balls from crowding the
flippers all the time.
<Korn> It prevents the flipper traffic jam. I found the multiballs to
be fairly uninspired. Unlike LOTR where each multiball had a unique
concept behind it (left / right combos, keep hitting shots to increase
multipliers, etc.) all the multiballs on WPT are of the...
<Wolffy> Light locks, balls kicked on the playfield and every shot is lit
for something.
<Korn> The only multiball worth talking about is Ace in the Hole
multiball.
<Wolffy> Hit the bars on the upper playfield to open them, jam a ball in
there to lock it. Then hit on that ball a few times to release it. Once
the multiball begins this rule still applies so if you bang on the bars
you’ll add a third and even a fourth ball to the multiball.
<Yancy> As cool as that multiball is on its own, it’s even cooler when
stacked with one of the bland multiballs. Not only do you have more
jackpots lit but it opens up the strategy with tucking one ball away in
the bars and adding more balls.
<Korn> Speaking of unbalanced scoring…
<Yancy> Being a Keith Johnson game it is stack or go home. The six
regular modes are not very lucrative on their own but stack with a
multiball they sort of complete themselves and the points really add up.
<Korn> This is especially true of Ace in the Hole multiball which awards
a lousy 15 points per jackpot unless you stack it with something else.
<Wolffy> During multiball the jackpots are loooooow in value, usually
around 200K. Since that’s so much lower than even the hurry-up values,
it is better to go for Side-Pots instead. (After collecting ten or so
you can light the extra ball.)
<Wolffy> Since all Yancy and I heard was music at the bar…
<Yancy> It’s my life…. It’s now or never!
<Wolffy> Yeah I’m going to defer the sound part of our presentation to
Korn.
<Korn> Well, it’s a new system and short of just shoving an AM radio in
the back box it would be hard for Stern to do worse than their previous
system. Voice work is very clear on the new system…
<Yancy> That’s true cause one of the few things I could hear were the
voices in the game and I could actually understand them.
<Wolffy> Like when it said “Hey Mike” and “Hey Vince”
<Korn> The overall fidelity of the system is a giant step better than the
last system.
<Yancy> Just think in ten years Stern games will sound as good as WMS
games 20 years ago.
<Korn> It is hard to say the new system *doesn’t* sound as good as DCS
with the limited exposure we’ve had so far.
<Wolffy> That would be one.
<Korn> But what I heard coming out of the game was good. The Ace in the
Hole tune is a really nice groove. Good riddance to BaSeMenT 2000!
<Yancy> Let’s talk about Dots baby!
<Korn> The dots for Ace in the Hole made a really good groove that I
could dance to.
<Wolffy> Most of the animation in the game are well done. Thanks to SAM
we have 16 shades of orange instead of 3.
<Yancy> I was wondering why the dots looked good.
<Korn> Not that it is easy to tell all 16 shades of orange but you can
tell there are a whole lot more.
<Yancy> The hole card animations and city introductions were particularly
nice. Being a big fan of the TV show itself, I have to say the dots and
sound package overall really convey what the show is like. It
intergrates a poker theme as well as it could for a modern pin.
<Korn> Meaning what?
<Yancy> Meaning a simple goal like collecting a poker hand was a good fit
for an older machine but it isn’t enough for a modern pin.
<Wolffy> To break up the card play aspect there are six modes to play.
<Korn> Welcome to the WPT Poker Corner, tell us what to do you dumb
bitch.
<Yancy> More like Welcome to the WPT Poker Corner, that is if I feel like
awarding mode start instead of just kicking the ball into the bumpers.
Hopefully, HOPEFULLY that bug disappears in a later version. There are
four things that can be lit on this shot but there is one combination in
which the award is “No, Fuck You!”
<Wolffy> Another bug that needs to disappear is this great feature called
“Spot the Tell” in which you are instructed to watch the display to see
what shot to shoot for. The only problem is that the mode’s display is
pre-empted with every little thing that is going on in the game.
<Korn> Yeah it is never clear (when you think you know where the tell is)
that the shot corresponds to that guy.
<Wolffy> I’m thinking of not talking about the art.
<Korn> You don’t want to talk about the gynecological hand on the
backglass?
<Wolffy> No, I’m too freaked out by it.
<Yancy> I’m bothered that they went through the trouble to add 14
displays into the middle of the playfield and never use it to display
anything other than poker hand. They could put so much more on there.
<Korn> Booooobs!
<Yancy> Like the hurry up value, or have a scrolling card that you
collect when you hit a target instead of just random. That would be a
cool rule cause then you can bring the poker rules into the game.
<Arnold> Shoot now!
<Yancy> So like I said earlier that they integrated the television theme
into the game well but they didn’t integrate the poker play at all.
<Korn> Moving right along, in case anyone’s wondering the flippers feel
unchanged from other Stern games. For example, on one of the test
machines, I was holding a flipper in and I could actually feel it
pulsing. No dual-wound flipper coils here.
<Wolffy> So is it about time to wrap this up?
<Yancy> Yeah, it’s past my bedtime. Overall, the more I play the game the
more I like it. That’s a good sign. I believe it was Korn who pointed out
that the game suffers from “Everything’s a multiball,” a la Cirqus
Voltaite, but I don’t mind.
<Korn> It’s not true that EVERY thing is a multiball, but all the big
points in the game are punctuated by “[insert descriptor here]
Multiball!” Overall, I would say it’s a very solid outing for the new
system, and you really have to keep in mind that this game and the system
were developed at the same time. So if you’re expecting LOTR-type
finished gameplay or depth of rules, you’re not going to find it here
because there simply wasn’t enough development time.
<Yancy> Yeah, it does feel a bit rough around the edges.
<Korn> Keeping that in mind, I can enjoy the game a lot more. Judged
solely on its own merits, the game never really reaches critical mass for
me. Unfortunately, Stabby and Stoppy are a big cause of that.
<Yancy> Tru dat.
<Wolffy> I’ve had good games on WPT when I could enter my initials, and I
‘ve had games that kicked my ass, and in both cases it just left me flat.
And each time I play it the game doesn’t grow on me. It’s just “eh.” I
think the playfield layout is on the weak side. The every shot feeds the
jets thing is kind of old quickly.
<Korn> I don’t think I agree with that, because only three shots directly
feed those bumpers.
<Wolffy> The drop targets don’t feel as sweep-able as I’d hoped.
<Korn> Now you’re on crack! I’ve had a ball start at the top of the
target bank and knock down three or even four targets on the way down.
<Wolffy> I’ve only ever gotten two.
<Korn> Then you suck!
<Yancy> Easy, fellas! Poker’s a gentleman’s game. Let’s wrap this up
already.
<Korn> Well, I WOULD wrap this up, but the Stoppy still has one my balls
trapped on the habitrail, so I can’t walk away from the game.
<Yancy> We’re all in! ...and all out of things to say.
FINI.
John Wart, jr
--
http://www.myhomegameroom.com
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns9772F27C2...@207.115.17.102...
> Three Grumpy Old Men (TGOM) review Wild Panty Tussle (WPT)! Wait..
> World Pantry Tour! Wild Pussy Teacher?
>
> Wait, wait... World Poker Tour! Yeah!
>
>
>
> <YBX> I have fishhooks. What do you have, Korn?
> <Korn> I have ace-nine off suit. Flip 'em over, Wolffy.
> <Wolffy> I have BLACKJACK!!
> <Korn> What? What's the matter with you? We're playing *POKER*!!
>
>
> Disclaimer: Blah blah blah. The standard TGOM disclaimer applies.
> We're as bored of writing it as you probably are reading it.
>
> <Korn> In summary, the STD (standard TGOM disclaimer) says that these
> were test machines, early (version 0.0!) software, things will change
> later in production, and that as a review group, we've progressed
> mentally to the level of fourth graders.
>
> <Wolffy> But fourth graders who know how to use the internet!
>
> <YBX> Don't most fourth graders these days know how to use the internet
> these days?
>
> <Wolffy> Oh yeah. Well, fourth graders who know how to use the internet
> AND like to play pinball!
>
> <Korn> Anyway, you've been forewarned. If you want to read a *full*
> TGOM disclaimer, check out our NASCAR review, available here:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/5854d1
> fc85e735cf/ca01dd18fd0256a1?lnk=st&q=tgom+nascar&rnum=1
> &hl=en#ca01dd18fd0256a1
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> <YBX> So are all the squares gone?
> <Korn> Who cares. :)
> <Yancy> The game is pretty good. THE END.
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> <Yancy> AHh, just kidding.
>
> <Korn> Hey, well, to start off with, we have the new Stern system!
>
> <Yancy> Well the only thing I noticed about the new stern system is that
> the high score table code is broken!
>
> <Wolffy> That's what's expected.
>
> <Korn> What do you mean that's what's expected!?? This isn't LOUIS'
> system! It's Lyman's!
>
> <Wolffy> Not the broken code, the not noticing anything about the
> system.
>
> <Korn> Oh come on, you can notice some things about the new system. The
> new system is called "SAM". Nobody knows what SAM stands for, other than
> Simple Ass Multiplexer.
>
> <Wolffy> So, sticking with the positives, the game stars Mike and
> Vince...
>
> <Korn> Can't really heat on a game for starring the best two names in
> the universe...
>
> <Yancy> Hey!
>
> <Korn> If only your name was Nancy. In any case, it doesn't sound
> glamorous, but I'm pretty astounded at the sheer *lack* of bugs we've
> encountered. Considering this is a whole new system from the ground up,
> rewriting literally everything from ground zero, I'd expect to find at
> least one major bug and almost no minor bugs.
>
> <Wolffy> And unlike NASCAR, the game just didn't reboot in the middle of
> testing it.
>
> <Korn> That's always a major plus to playing on location!
>
> <Yancy> There's a difference between unfinished code and buggy code.
> While there is still some unfinished code in WPT (v. 1.04 for this
> review), there weren't many bugs.
>
> <Korn> Instant info is in pretty dire need of. info. "II #1" and "II #
> 2" doesn't mean much, especially since it's the same no matter when you
> look at it. :)
>
> <Korn> But in general you can really play this game without fear of
> hitting crazy bugs, like the T3 "all lights flash and game dies" bug, or
> the LOTR "all lights die" bug, or the the NASCAR "always lit special"
> bug, or the.
>
> <Wolffy> Or the Sopranos that had ball save bugs galore.
>
> <Yancy> We get it already!
>
> <Wolffy> So putting all the cards on the table, we have playfield
> layout, art, sound, and playability to talk about. Traditionally, we
> start with the playfield layout.
>
> <Korn> So you're saying that's a good reason *not* to? :)
>
>
>
> <Wolffy> OK, let's go over the layout. At the lower left we have the
> light lock target.
>
> <Korn> This target's insert is hard wired into 110V AC, since it never
> turns off.
>
> <Yancy> I bet it turns off when all the locks are lit.
>
> <Korn> Yeah, yeah.
>
> <Wolffy> Above the lock target, the entire left side of the playfield is
> eight drop targets.
>
> <Korn> Eight SWEET drop targets. These aren't your old Stern style drop
> targets, which felt like you were bashing coke cans with bowling pins.
> These feel silky smooth, and you can sweep these. They feel like old
> style WMS or 1980-era Bally drop targets.
>
> <Wolffy> No more riveting the artwork to the target, a la Sopranos.
> Above the drops is the one and only orbit in the game, the left orbit.
> Not to be confused with the short track.
>
> <Yancy> Wrong sport!
>
> <Wolffy> The next shot is the left ramp / scoop. It's a wide scoop, but
> I found it easier to hit it with the left flipper than the right flipper.
>
> <Korn> Why?? I didn't have any problems hitting it with either flipper.
>
> <Yancy> Neither did I!
>
> <Wolffy> There are two lane dividers between the orbit and the scoop.
> To the left of the scoop is this perfect straight piece of metal, if the
> ball doesn't make it entirely up the scoop, this guides it straight down
> the middle.
>
> <Korn> That's a bit setup dependent. If the game is leaning to the
> left, then yeah that rejection is going SDTM.
>
> <Wolffy> This scoop also troubles me because if you're aiming at the
> shot, and hit the left side of the scoop.
>
> <Yancy> .then you MISSED! You expect a scoop to Hoover up shots??
> four drop targets, which.. Well, uhmmmm.. Drop.
>
> <Wolffy> This game does have an upper playfield.
>
> <Yancy> Upper playfield? Yes an upper playfield.
>
> <Wolffy> Well ok it is not so much an upper playfield as it is an upper
> plexi-glass. And that's a good thing because with it being clear you
> have a great view of some light lacking jet bumpers.
>
> <Korn> Didn't we already say that?
>
> <Yancy> It bears repeating.
>
> <Wolffy> The top side of this playfield has from left to right: an opto
> on the popper exit, 2 stand up targets, the bars for Ace In The Hole, one
> more stand up target and then the hurry up exit back down into the jet
> bumpers.
>
> <Korn> And it has the exit from the right ramp.
>
> <Yancy> Featuring "Stabby: The Wonder Post"!
>
> <Korn> Stabby is this neat little feature that takes a playful stab at
> the ball when you feed the ramp the wrong way, never actually succeeding
> at catching the ball.
>
> ..
>
> <Wolffy> After pushing start, your World Poker Tour experience begins
> with the world's most useless manual plunger part deux.
>
> <Korn> I was considering taking the world's most useless manual plunger
> award away from NASCAR. I think Steve and Pat had a bet going on who
> could design the world's most useless manual plunger.
>
> <Yancy> But Steve underestimated Pat's ability to design useless things.
>
> <Wolffy> DDYH!
>
> <Korn> But the manual plunger "sort-of" serves a purpose. It selects
> which skill shot you take, like LOTR.
>
> <Yancy> Except in LOTR the strength of the plunge matters too, but here
> it is just the timing. The auto-plunger would suffice.
>
> <Wolffy> The plunger feeds a VUK which sends the ball.
>
> <Korn> Sends ALL balls.
>
> <Wolffy> .to the upper plexi-field. Before the VUK kicks the ball here
> there are three choices on the skill shot:
>
> <Korn> Win, place, or show?
>
> <Wolffy> Advance Hold 'Em, Mystery, and Skill Flip. The first two will
> hold the ball in the VUK for a little DMD animation.
>
> <Korn> Get used to seeing that!
>
> <Yancy> At least you can hit both flippers to cancel the animation. oh,
> wait. no you can't.
> <Yancy> . the WONDER POST!!
> <Korn> Speaking of unbalanced scoring.
>
> <Yancy> Being a Keith Johnson game it is stack or go home. The six
> regular modes are not very lucrative on their own but stack with a
> multiball they sort of complete themselves and the points really add up.
>
> <Korn> This is especially true of Ace in the Hole multiball which awards
> a lousy 15 points per jackpot unless you stack it with something else.
>
> <Wolffy> During multiball the jackpots are loooooow in value, usually
> around 200K. Since that's so much lower than even the hurry-up values,
> it is better to go for Side-Pots instead. (After collecting ten or so
> you can light the extra ball.)
>
> <Wolffy> Since all Yancy and I heard was music at the bar.
>
> <Yancy> It's my life.. It's now or never!
>
> <Wolffy> Yeah I'm going to defer the sound part of our presentation to
> Korn.
>
> <Korn> Well, it's a new system and short of just shoving an AM radio in
> the back box it would be hard for Stern to do worse than their previous
> system. Voice work is very clear on the new system.
JC
my own opinion but I'll be comparing gameplay to a couple of aspects
you mentioned. :-)
-JC-
TheKorn wrote:
> Three Grumpy Old Men (TGOM) review Wild Panty Tussle (WPT)! Wait..
> World Pantry Tour! Wild Pussy Teacher?
>
> Wait, wait... World Poker Tour! Yeah!
>
>
>
> <YBX> I have fishhooks. What do you have, Korn?
> <Korn> I have ace-nine off suit. Flip 'em over, Wolffy.
> <Wolffy> I have BLACKJACK!!
> <Korn> What? What's the matter with you? We're playing *POKER*!!
>
>
> Disclaimer: Blah blah blah... The standard TGOM disclaimer applies.
> We're as bored of writing it as you probably are reading it.
>
> <Korn> In summary, the STD (standard TGOM disclaimer) says that these
> were test machines, early (version 0.0!) software, things will change
> later in production, and that as a review group, we've progressed
> mentally to the level of fourth graders.
>
> <Wolffy> But fourth graders who know how to use the internet!
>
> <YBX> Don't most fourth graders these days know how to use the internet
> these days?
>
> <Wolffy> Oh yeah. Well, fourth graders who know how to use the internet
> AND like to play pinball!
>
> <Korn> Anyway, you've been forewarned. If you want to read a *full*
> TGOM disclaimer, check out our NASCAR review, available here:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/5854d1
> fc85e735cf/ca01dd18fd0256a1?lnk=st&q=tgom+nascar&rnum=1
> &hl=en#ca01dd18fd0256a1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <YBX> So are all the squares gone?
> <Korn> Who cares... :)
> <Yancy> The game is pretty good. THE END.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <Yancy> AHh, just kidding.
>
> <Korn> Hey, well, to start off with, we have the new Stern system!
>
> <Yancy> Well the only thing I noticed about the new stern system is that
> the high score table code is broken!
>
> <Wolffy> That's what's expected.
>
> <Korn> What do you mean that's what's expected!?? This isn't LOUIS'
> system! It's Lyman's!
>
> <Wolffy> Not the broken code, the not noticing anything about the
> system.
>
> <Korn> Oh come on, you can notice some things about the new system. The
> new system is called "SAM". Nobody knows what SAM stands for, other than
> Simple Ass Multiplexer.
>
> <Wolffy> So, sticking with the positives, the game stars Mike and
> Vince...
>
> <Korn> Can't really heat on a game for starring the best two names in
> the universe...
>
> <Yancy> Hey!
>
> <Korn> If only your name was Nancy... In any case, it doesn't sound
> glamorous, but I'm pretty astounded at the sheer *lack* of bugs we've
> encountered. Considering this is a whole new system from the ground up,
> rewriting literally everything from ground zero, I'd expect to find at
> least one major bug and almost no minor bugs.
>
> <Wolffy> And unlike NASCAR, the game just didn't reboot in the middle of
> testing it.
>
> <Korn> That's always a major plus to playing on location!
>
> <Yancy> There's a difference between unfinished code and buggy code.
> While there is still some unfinished code in WPT (v. 1.04 for this
> review), there weren't many bugs.
>
> <Korn> Instant info is in pretty dire need of... info. "II #1" and "II #
> 2" doesn't mean much, especially since it's the same no matter when you
> look at it. :)
>
> <Korn> But in general you can really play this game without fear of
> hitting crazy bugs, like the T3 "all lights flash and game dies" bug, or
> the LOTR "all lights die" bug, or the the NASCAR "always lit special"
> bug, or the...
>
> <Wolffy> Or the Sopranos that had ball save bugs galore.
>
> <Yancy> We get it already!
>
> <Wolffy> So putting all the cards on the table, we have playfield
> layout, art, sound, and playability to talk about. Traditionally, we
> start with the playfield layout.
>
> <Korn> So you're saying that's a good reason *not* to? :)
>
>
>
> <Wolffy> OK, let's go over the layout. At the lower left we have the
> light lock target.
>
> <Korn> This target's insert is hard wired into 110V AC, since it never
> turns off.
>
> <Yancy> I bet it turns off when all the locks are lit.
>
> <Korn> Yeah, yeah...
>
> <Wolffy> Above the lock target, the entire left side of the playfield is
> eight drop targets.
>
> <Korn> Eight SWEET drop targets. These aren't your old Stern style drop
> targets, which felt like you were bashing coke cans with bowling pins.
> These feel silky smooth, and you can sweep these. They feel like old
> style WMS or 1980-era Bally drop targets.
>
> <Wolffy> No more riveting the artwork to the target, a la Sopranos.
> Above the drops is the one and only orbit in the game, the left orbit.
> Not to be confused with the short track.
>
> <Yancy> Wrong sport!
>
> <Wolffy> The next shot is the left ramp / scoop. It's a wide scoop, but
> I found it easier to hit it with the left flipper than the right flipper.
>
> <Korn> Why?? I didn't have any problems hitting it with either flipper.
>
> <Yancy> Neither did I!
>
> <Wolffy> There are two lane dividers between the orbit and the scoop.
> To the left of the scoop is this perfect straight piece of metal, if the
> ball doesn't make it entirely up the scoop, this guides it straight down
> the middle.
>
> <Korn> That's a bit setup dependent. If the game is leaning to the
> left, then yeah that rejection is going SDTM.
>
> <Wolffy> This scoop also troubles me because if you're aiming at the
> shot, and hit the left side of the scoop...
>
> <Yancy> ...then you MISSED! You expect a scoop to Hoover up shots??
> four drop targets, which.... Well, uhmmmm.... Drop.
>
> <Wolffy> This game does have an upper playfield.
>
> <Yancy> Upper playfield? Yes an upper playfield.
>
> <Wolffy> Well ok it is not so much an upper playfield as it is an upper
> plexi-glass. And that's a good thing because with it being clear you
> have a great view of some light lacking jet bumpers.
>
> <Korn> Didn't we already say that?
>
> <Yancy> It bears repeating.
>
> <Wolffy> The top side of this playfield has from left to right: an opto
> on the popper exit, 2 stand up targets, the bars for Ace In The Hole, one
> more stand up target and then the hurry up exit back down into the jet
> bumpers.
>
> <Korn> And it has the exit from the right ramp.
>
> <Yancy> Featuring "Stabby: The Wonder Post"!
>
> <Korn> Stabby is this neat little feature that takes a playful stab at
> the ball when you feed the ramp the wrong way, never actually succeeding
> at catching the ball.
>
> ....
>
> <Wolffy> After pushing start, your World Poker Tour experience begins
> with the world's most useless manual plunger part deux.
>
> <Korn> I was considering taking the world's most useless manual plunger
> award away from NASCAR. I think Steve and Pat had a bet going on who
> could design the world's most useless manual plunger...
>
> <Yancy> But Steve underestimated Pat's ability to design useless things.
>
> <Wolffy> DDYH!
>
> <Korn> But the manual plunger "sort-of" serves a purpose. It selects
> which skill shot you take, like LOTR.
>
> <Yancy> Except in LOTR the strength of the plunge matters too, but here
> it is just the timing. The auto-plunger would suffice.
>
> <Wolffy> The plunger feeds a VUK which sends the ball...
>
> <Korn> Sends ALL balls...
>
> <Wolffy> ...to the upper plexi-field. Before the VUK kicks the ball here
> there are three choices on the skill shot:
>
> <Korn> Win, place, or show?
>
> <Wolffy> Advance Hold 'Em, Mystery, and Skill Flip. The first two will
> hold the ball in the VUK for a little DMD animation.
>
> <Korn> Get used to seeing that!
>
> <Yancy> At least you can hit both flippers to cancel the animation... oh,
> wait... no you can't.
> <Yancy> ... the WONDER POST!!
> <Korn> Speaking of unbalanced scoring...
>
> <Yancy> Being a Keith Johnson game it is stack or go home. The six
> regular modes are not very lucrative on their own but stack with a
> multiball they sort of complete themselves and the points really add up.
>
> <Korn> This is especially true of Ace in the Hole multiball which awards
> a lousy 15 points per jackpot unless you stack it with something else.
>
> <Wolffy> During multiball the jackpots are loooooow in value, usually
> around 200K. Since that's so much lower than even the hurry-up values,
> it is better to go for Side-Pots instead. (After collecting ten or so
> you can light the extra ball.)
>
> <Wolffy> Since all Yancy and I heard was music at the bar...
>
> <Yancy> It's my life.... It's now or never!
>
> <Wolffy> Yeah I'm going to defer the sound part of our presentation to
> Korn.
>
> <Korn> Well, it's a new system and short of just shoving an AM radio in
> the back box it would be hard for Stern to do worse than their previous
> system. Voice work is very clear on the new system...
pinballjim
10% Disclaimer
85% Description of the PF
5% Admitting you don't like the game much
TheKorn
news:1140710719.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> No offense, Korn, but this review reads as about:
>
> 10% Disclaimer
> 85% Description of the PF
> 5% Admitting you don't like the game much
Well Jim, what would you have us write about?
Wolffy
pinballjim wrote:
> No offense, Korn, but this review reads as about:
>
> 10% Disclaimer
Really? What's in the review is nothing. The full disclaimer is built
into the web templates and yes we have had people contact us years later
after the game had been modified in production a few times.
> 85% Description of the PF
There is a reason for that. The outtake/annotated version explains why.
> 5% Admitting you don't like the game much
Really, I could have sworn I said 100% I don't like the game much.
-wolffy
pinballjim
Wolffy wrote:
> Really, I could have sworn I said 100% I don't like the game much.
You did. I meant 5% of the content of the review was you guys saying
you don't like it.
gpc...@yahoo.com
I believe it says that the Poker/Pin integration is very weak
but the TV Show/Pin integration is strong
Meanwhile the game is all start and stop so that you have time to
concentrate on the poker aspect
very tough theme to work with
The artwork is the poorest on any game in recent or long term memory
Look at the apron artwork on a WMS and then look at the apron artwork
on a recent Stern and you will realize that good old Gary Stern is
clueless when it comes to making games look good. Is it really cheaper
to print pixelated garbage artwork than really nice smooth WMS style
artwork? Isn't printing, printing regardless of quality?
I'm doing my part to support Stern as I just purchased a NIB Nascar
from Jess at United (Pat Lawlor still has the magic), but WPT has all
the earmarks of a dog
take care everybody ...
Gary/Arizona
Superpin Al
pinballjim wrote:
> No offense, Korn, but this review reads as about:
>
> 10% Disclaimer
> 85% Description of the PF
> 5% Admitting you don't like the game much
>
OK...and what is wrong with that. Sounds quite appropriate for TGOM.
10%-disclaimer and general goofy bantering, fine
85%-describe game and gameplay, the largest piece of the pie as it
should be
5%-opinion, which by the way is what you have been whining about
getting from_someone_for awhile now
I see no problem.
Conclusion-pinballjim=troll in sheeps clothing.
For the record I am in Yancy's corner in that after three seperate
occasions of playing the game I like it more each time I play it. Long
term remains to be seen but I feel it is a solid game overall
especially considering the new system.
Al
sc...@farrar.com
this game fits in the list of Stern games - is it better than NASCAR,
SOPRANOS, AUSTIN POWERS, etc. Is it worse than LOTR, TSPP, T3, HRC,
etc?
How about ending each review with a ranking of Stern games with the new
game positioned in the ranking?
I wish MartinA would do the same thing as his reviews always seem to
have the latest game released as one of the best Stern games.
pinballjim
Oh, go fuck yourself.
I am nothing but supportive of Stern pinball and am currently doing
everything I can to be able to afford one. It doesn't mean I like
every decision they make or every designer they use, or even love every
game they make.
This one has me upset because the buzz is coming across very neutral.
I'm waiting to read a review that talks about how fun the game is, and
why. So far I haven't seen it. :(
pinballjim
I'm glad that someone else "gets it".
Folks, this is a Keith Johnson game. Not a day goes by that someone is
posting how much they love TSPP or LOTR. Lots of folks don't like one
or the other, but it seems almost everyone likes at least one.
All anyone cares about when Keith is involved is this: is it better
than, or as good as, LOTR or TSPP?
metallik
> occasions of playing the game I like it more each time I play it. Long
> term remains to be seen but I feel it is a solid game overall
> especially considering the new system.
I wonder if an adjustment (or flat out change of code) could be
implemented to disable stoppy and stabby after the first WPT hand has
been played... let the noobs see the animations the first time, but let
the players who can last more than 5 minutes get the flow they want
after the initial hand. I haven't seen the animations or whatnot, so
not sure how important they are.. but since the poker hand cannot be
controlled by the player and has no bearing on gameplay before it is
complete (and value determined), maybe let all but the first hand let
the balls fly by on the ramps, at least til the hand is done (and the
mode or whatever awarded).
Rick Swanson
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>.... then look at the apron artwork
>on a recent Stern and you will realize that good old Gary Stern is
>clueless when it comes to making games look good.
>
Gary, is it really necessary to personally insult Gary Stern just
because certain artwork on a Stern game doesn't meet your approval?
Couldn't you have simply said "in my opinion, the artwork on this game
doesn't look as nice as the Williams games"? If you had stated your
opinion in that manner I probably would have thought to myself "Gary is
right about that". But because you expressed your opinion if the form
of a personal insult all you did was piss me off. Now, of course, you
couldn't care less that you have pissed me off, but, I'm sure others
feel as I do on this subject and the cumulative effect of that you may
someday come to care about. Or at least, should care about. Stated
otherwise, if you want your opinions respected, then offer them in a
respectful manner.
Rick Swanson
gpc...@yahoo.com
I just shelled out good money for a NIB Nascar
I have an Elvis, RBION and T3 here in the gameroom
I am a customer of Gary Stern
I am going to tell you what most everyone else is thinking, the people
who are doing the art or approving the art or whatever at Stern are
totally clueless
Look at the apron decals on Elvis and then tell me I am wrong
Look at Sopranos and then tell me I am wrong
Look at any art on WPT and then tell me that I am wrong
The games tend to be ulgy and the pixelated artwork in 2006 is mind
boggling
my opinions as a customer
Gary/Arizona
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6256587389
gpc...@yahoo.com
I do think that the Stern games play great
The game designers are doing a very nice job overall
RBION had one of the top 10 playfield designs of all-time
Big Question: Has anyone ever considered putting the DMD right on the
playfield (WPT did this with the card reader) so that you can
concentrate on the game while you are looking at the DMD animations?
I have always found it difficult to look at the DMD while I am playing
the game
Put the DMD right on the playfield under a plastic (kind of like CTBL
has)
You could probably save money by using a smaller DMD since it would be
about 2 feet closer to you
and start putting some nice art on the games so they don't look like
Vacation America
just my two cents of course
Gary/Arizona
pinballjim
Well, it's kinda hard to show off high scores on that.
Atari did scores on the apron and I didn't like it.
Chicago Coin did ball count on the score card, and that stunk, too.
gpc...@yahoo.com
Gary/Arizona
Josh Sharpe
the size of the pot you are going to collect. I think taking those
extra 3 seconds to see what you get on the flop or turn, and then
decide how you want to go about raising the pot, versus simply
collecting it is a great part of the strategy of the game. If I'm at
Ace high after the flop, I usually just head towards the ramps to
finish that hand ASAP. If I have trip-queens or a possible flush or
straight draw, you better believe I'll start pumping those spinners to
raise the main pot.
I think the Critic's Corner review hit Play Meter in the February
issue, so feel free to pick that up for our opinions on the game.
-Josh Sharpe
JCZ
Rick Swanson wrote:
Gary, is it really necessary to personally insult Gary Stern.
Lighten up... Why do you consider clueless as an insult.
Save your "PC" spin for the soccer moms and the blue haired Republicans
at the country club. Oh yeah... "in my opinion".
Jeff
sc...@farrar.com
While not DMDs, these games used displays to convey info to the player:
BLY Mr & Mrs Pac-Man had a Score Display in the PF
BLY Medusa had a Score Display in the PF
GTB Caveman had a Monitor in the PF
GTB Black Hole had a Score Display in the PF
GTB Haunted House had a Score Display in the PF
WMS SW:EP1 had a Monitor reflect info/animations onto the PF glass
WMS RFM has a Monitor reflect info/animations onto the PF glass
Rick Swanson
said that I agree with you on that point. But you don't have to make
personal insults against Gary Stern, or the artists, in the process of
expressing your opinion. The fact that you have a whole house fully of
recent Stern games tells me that Gary Stern actually does have a clue.
When you can get your worst critic to buy a bunch of your product makes
you a genius in my book... certainly not clueless.
I strongly suspect that there are cost factors involved in producing the
artwork that goes on a Stern game which ultimately impacts the retail
price of the game. The better the quality of the final artwork the more
expensive the game. So a choice has to be made by the manufacturer. Do
they spend a million dollars on artwork production or $100,000. With a
million dollars maybe they get Williams class. With $100,000 they get
something less. Its probably even the same artists who produce the
artwork regardless of how much is spent. But, the "you get what you pay
for" factor kicks in just like it does on just about every other product
manufactured. If a world class sculptor is asked to reproduce
Michelangelo's statue of David and you limit the budget for him to do so
at $100 you are going to get something that doesn't look much like
David. However, if you commission that same world class sculptor to do
so for $300,000, you likely will end up with something that looks very
much like David. Don't call the sculptor "clueless" simply because a
$100 sculpture looks like a $100 sculpture.
Rick Swanson
metallik
> because certain artwork on a Stern game doesn't meet your approval?
You know, it was sooo nice here for a week while gary was away.. sad
to see he's back and as tactless as ever :p
> right about that". But because you expressed your opinion if the form
> of a personal insult all you did was piss me off. Now, of course, you
> couldn't care less that you have pissed me off, but, I'm sure others
gary care what others think?? BWAHAHAHAA HA HA HA ...
gpc...@yahoo.com
I am not insulting them as people
I am talking about the work
Stern games look like total garbage (WPT is the worst looking game in
modern day history and some of the others are right behind it)
Gary Stern needs to find someone that understands basic art on an
arcade machine
The games play great, but look like pixelated trash
Compare them to a WMS game ... good artwork shouldn't cost that much
more than the garbage they are doing now ... printing is printing ...
Is the price cheaper to print them up because of all the pixelated
colors?
Is that how he saves money?
Everyone says it behind the scenes
Everybody knows that it is true
my views
Gary/Arizona
Rick Swanson
JCZ wrote:
> Why do you consider clueless as an insult.
>
>
>
I guess it's because I've just never seen or heard the word "clueless"
used to complement someone.
Rick Swanson
metallik
the game.. haven't had a chance to play one myself yet. Still, would
looking at the LED displays be enough to determine your hand (in
between ramp shots) or is it really necessary to stop the ball to show
the player their hand? If the LEDs updated immediately with the next
cards upon closure of the 'ramp made' switch, it might be possible to
skip the stops.. sure, it'd be harder for the player to make those
snap decisions, but is it that much harder? Assuming the pot is
collected when the 'river' ramp shot is made, you could watch the LEDs
after the flop shot and turn, then make a snap decision to shoot that
last ramp and collect, or shoot for pot-building shots first...
Hope to get a chance to play one soon, then I can see for myself :)
Dan G.
code, but if not, I'm wondering if simply disabling the posts altogether
would improve the gameplay (what do you think TGOM?)
The most disappointing aspect of the review was to hear that the rules are
not in the same league as LOTR or TSPP. I really had hoped KJ was going to
top himself and make this his deepest ruleset ever. I even pre-ordered the
game based on that "hope". Actually, this quote from Steve Ritchie himself
is what made me pick up the phone to place my order:
"Are you guys kidding??? "Is that all there is???" It's Keith,
dudes!!! The game is loaded and the memory is literally twice a full
as Pinball News' game is!!! We are talking early code here. Relax.
Just wait a bit. You won't be disappointed, trust me."
From the sound of the TGOM review the rules appear to be pretty much the
same as the Pinball News review machine with not much added....certainly not
"twice" as much :(
Well, I'm still hoping that KJ is hard at work writing more code to
expand/refine the game's rules. I will really feel cheated if the code has
been rushed "because there simply wasn't enough development time."
---Dan
"metallik" <lsc...@dlptech.com> wrote in message
news:1140719184.9...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
gpc...@yahoo.com
my apologies
but put a Stern next to a re-decaled CH WMS game and you will
understand what I am talking about
and the question is, does it really cost that much more money to do a
nice design without all of the pixels showing ?
the printing cost should be equal or close
take care ...
Gary/Arizona
kirb
so much for "I'm never buying another Stern game as long as he won't
sell direct".....
Gary Stern can't be all that clueless if he can sell to his worst
critic. Seems that he is doing just fine.
> I am a customer of Gary Stern
I guess you had to buy another Stern brand coffee table to keep stating
the above.
Sad to see you are back. It was nice to not hear from you in 2 weeks.
Kirb
kirb
I see that you are putting a lot of weight on others opinions of a game
and how it rates with others (very subjective)
Now that the game is out you may be able to play one near you and make
up your own judgements to your satisfaction.
Kirb
Rick Swanson
Rick Swanson
metallik
> Larry - I don't want to be the catalyst for another round of general
> bashing here on this newsgroup. Please, everyone, let's not do that.
> Thanks.
Oh, not going to keep on him, he's not worth it, really.. But, know
that you're absolutely not the 'catalyst' here. We all know where the
problem lies.. don't beat yourself up for calling out rude behavior.
pinballjim
>and how it rates with others (very subjective)
Yep, but over the years I've come to respect a few of those opinions.
Not-so-secretly, I've been hoping for a new Stern hit to come out and
knock some of the resale value out of their older games. ;)
Josh Sharpe
I find all the red suits on the LED display a little harder to read. I
guess the extra time I get to sort of "evaluate" where I'm at in terms
of starting a Poker Corner mode, or starting a multiball, building up
the pot, collecting the hand, getting back to the upper playfield, etc.
etc. is something I don't mind having. Although I tend to not make many
snap decisions when playing, I could see where people just wanting to
get the ball and flip would just want the ball back as fast as
possible.
-Josh
gpc...@yahoo.com
They have had 2 hits (TSSP and LOTR)
and a lot of misses and a lot of bad artwork
and they have the market all to themselves
and they have all the great designers of the past all to themselves
hmmmmm ....
Gary/Arizona
gpc...@yahoo.com
If I am so wrong on this, can anyone out there say that they actually
like the general artwork that Stern does
That they like all those pixels?
anyone ???
Gary/Arizona
TheKorn
since I know the instant it goes out that eighteen things that I *meant*
to say in the review are going to immediately come flooding back to me.
It's inevitible; happens EVERY time no matter how long or how many times
I've proof read a review.
So with that in mind, here are some ideas that *should* have been in the
original review that simply didn't get in there:
* The game has some new visual effects for the lamps, including slow
strobing. (i.e. slowly taking a lamp from 0 to full brightness and back
again) This effect is used pretty well in the game, almost (dare I say
it) making the inserts look pretty with a shimmering effect.
* The game has a temperment, in almost a CFTBL way. One game you'll be
doing pretty well, and the next game it'll eat your lunch.
* Clarification: for the center drop targets, there is rubber behind
them, *then* the metal we referenced.
* Stabby and stoppy aren't only in play when you flip cards. They also
hold the ball (for quite a while) when you go to a new city. Stop, watch
DMD animation of a plane flying, then new city comes into view, release
ball.
Do I like the game? Yes, and no. Stabby and stoppy clearly drive me
absolutely *nuts*. But the layout, in general, I like. The drops feel
verrrry good (thank goodness, as there are 16!).
But in the same breath, there's just something almost missing that should
be there. I quantify it as an intangible called "magic", which is the
ability to suck people in again and again. The consensus was that we
were playing WPT a lot just to make sure we were thoroughly playing the
game, but it wasn't trying to GET us to play it. And that's kind of
unfortunate.
With that said, and since Scott and Jim just can't live without it, in
terms of sheer fun that I've had playing Stern (and only Stern) pins, I'd
*personally* have to rate them (from top to bottom) LOTR, Elvis / T3
(tie), NASCAR / WPT / LOTR 2.0 [Sopranos] (tie), and then everything else
(which is quite a bit, just being lazy).
kirb
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> but put a Stern next to a re-decaled CH WMS game and you will
> understand what I am talking about
I wondered how long it would take before you mentioned his name....
Kirb
TheKorn
news:v8oLf.164$3D...@tornado.socal.rr.com:
> I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully Keith will add this option
> to the code, but if not, I'm wondering if simply disabling the posts
> altogether would improve the gameplay (what do you think TGOM?)
Certainly, I think so. If >I< owned one, I'd flat out disconnect those
two solenoids. You'll have some 'funny' time where the game thinks it's
holding a ball (such as the start of a new city), but I think the net
effect would be positive.
> The most disappointing aspect of the review was to hear that the rules
> are not in the same league as LOTR or TSPP. I really had hoped KJ was
> going to top himself and make this his deepest ruleset ever. I even
> pre-ordered the game based on that "hope". Actually, this quote from
> Steve Ritchie himself is what made me pick up the phone to place my
> order:
>
> "Are you guys kidding??? "Is that all there is???" It's Keith,
> dudes!!! The game is loaded and the memory is literally twice a full
> as Pinball News' game is!!! We are talking early code here. Relax.
> Just wait a bit. You won't be disappointed, trust me."
>
> From the sound of the TGOM review the rules appear to be pretty much
> the same as the Pinball News review machine with not much
> added....certainly not "twice" as much :(
Well, it's kind of hard to really gauge the true depth of the rules while
playing on location. I mean, we're paying to play and all, and you can
only devote so much time to a machine before the establishment tells you
to order more drinks or get the hell out. :)
So you pretty much have to go with the guy reaction, which is "well,
along the way, how did it feel?" And that's pretty much what you have.
> Well, I'm still hoping that KJ is hard at work writing more code to
> expand/refine the game's rules. I will really feel cheated if the
> code has been rushed "because there simply wasn't enough development
> time."
Well, I know he is. Make you feel better? :)
sc...@farrar.com
TheKorn
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>> For the record I am in Yancy's corner in that after three seperate
>> occasions of playing the game I like it more each time I play it. Long
>> term remains to be seen but I feel it is a solid game overall
>> especially considering the new system.
>
> I wonder if an adjustment (or flat out change of code) could be
> implemented to disable stoppy and stabby after the first WPT hand has
> been played... let the noobs see the animations the first time, but let
> the players who can last more than 5 minutes get the flow they want
> after the initial hand.
That would be an *excellent* addition to the code. Let's face it,
newbies are going to be lucky to play an entire hand of hold 'em, and if
you can play decently then you get sick of having the ball just hang
around doing a whole lot of nothing.
> I haven't seen the animations or whatnot, so
> not sure how important they are..
I think that, for me at least, is what adds insult to injury. It's like
playing Junkyard all over again, seeing that damn dog run animation for
the 50 billionth time, when it has absolutely zero bearing on anything.
(sigh)
Even so, I could still see stopping the ball for the inter-city
animations. Can't have the ball going crazy ALL the time. Just most of
it. :)
john0...@aol.com
He said he thought Keith would be writing for months to come so
i'm sure more deeper rules are to come. Look at LOTR 10 rom
revisons.
kirb
The artwork has been mentioned many times way back before the worst
artwork- Austin Powers. Just because they are not jumping on your
bashwagon now does not mean this hasn't been talked about a lot in the
past.
You have to read RGP beyond what you post about to understand this. Not
a lot of people enjoy the quality of the artwork on Stern games.
Kirb
gpc...@yahoo.com
designing a good game
To steal a line out of T3 and No Fear
"Design Better"
=)
Gary/Arizona
Not surprised that I turned out to be right about WPT being a dog
kirb
gpct...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Steve Ritchie should have spent less time slamming me and more time
> designing a good game
Actually, the 5 minutes out of his day bitchslapping you was worth gold
to this group. That was some of the best "sit your ass down" I have
ever seen.
> Not surprised that I turned out to be right about WPT being a dog
You are not right if it is a hit. Time will only tell. Home sales seems
to be on par.
You forgot a different Stern hit- Harley- that pin outsold every other
Stern title that I know of and is not a big RGP fav.
Kirb
keeping it real....and BS free.
TheKorn
@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
> Good points.. Note that I'm going off the reviews and descriptions of
> the game.. haven't had a chance to play one myself yet. Still, would
> looking at the LED displays be enough to determine your hand (in
> between ramp shots) or is it really necessary to stop the ball to show
> the player their hand?
Well, that's almos the insult to injury in the case of stabby and stoppy.
They threw all this hardware at putting a big display in the middle of
the field, essentially creating a "heads up display" for your cards, so
you don't have to move your eyes off the main field.
...then what do they do? They *force* you to look up at the display!
"hello, left hand, this is the right hand calling."
After a few games you find yourself not even bothering to look up,
instead staring intently at the ball, focusing on it, trying to make it
move through sheer will power.
> If the LEDs updated immediately with the next
> cards upon closure of the 'ramp made' switch, it might be possible to
> skip the stops.. sure, it'd be harder for the player to make those
> snap decisions, but is it that much harder?
That's the thing... With the left ramp, you have roughly one second of
roll time after the ball makes the scoop to read your cards. With the
right ramp, you have even MORE time, since it traverses the UPF first.
> Hope to get a chance to play one soon, then I can see for myself :)
Amen to that! :)
pinballjim
Bah, Stern's biggest hit was designed by Sega. :)
Makes me wonder where South Park falls, too.
kirb
A hit is a hit. (besides the name seems to be almost transparent). No
numbers to back it up, but I would think SP is up there with TSPP and
LOTR.
Kirb
pinballjim
That's what sounds the most aggravating about this title... I'm sure
not reading a lot about the amazing effects on the PF display.
As for Keith updating this continously.... we gotta remember that LOTR
sold very well....
gpc...@yahoo.com
up with a big hit with nice artwork and a great theme and good
playfield design?
Would it really be that hard to do?
Sometimes Stern reminds me of an American car company trying to compete
with the Japanese, where year after year they just can't seem to match
the quality or design
The difference is that Stern has WMS people
What is the problem with making a decent game again?
The all-star team works for Gary Stern and yet we have WPT
It doesn't make any sense
=)
Gary/Arizona
kirb
There is so much wrong with that above post that it just needs to be
left alone without any comments whatsoever.
Kirb
Dan G.
this WILL be implemented! Please Keith :) I remember how bummed I was
having to sit through the animations on CV...but when the home rom came out
that allowed you to bypass them...WOW...it made for a MUCH, MUCH better
gameplay experience.
---Dan
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns977391C6F...@207.115.17.102...
TheKorn
news:Xns97739023F...@207.115.17.102:
> Whenever TGOM posts a review, it's always with a bit of trepidation,
> since I know the instant it goes out that eighteen things that I
> *meant* to say in the review are going to immediately come flooding
> back to me. It's inevitible; happens EVERY time no matter how long or
> how many times I've proof read a review.
>
>
> So with that in mind, here are some ideas that *should* have been in
> the original review that simply didn't get in there:
* When you hit drop targets (for the five card hands outside of
multiball), the game takes a second before it lights anything. It's
actually a computational delay, because the game is trying to figure out
what hands could be made using the drop targets you've already knocked
down.
It's actually kind of cool. Let's say, for example (not looking at
playfield shots while writing, so bear with...), that you've already
collected one and two pair. Now let's say you smack down a king of
spades and a ten of spades. The game is going to light the rest of the
tens and the other kings, because you could get a full house from them.
But it's ALSO going to light all the *other* spades, since you could get
a flush. It's ALSO going to light any jack, queen, ace, and nines, since
those could be hit for a straight.
So the game tries to help players out by noting which shots are going to
be good for something on the drops. (nice code, Keith!)
Or, alternatively, you can play the poker hands whack-a-mole style, which
is simply knock all 16 drops down ad infinitum until you've collected
every hand possible. While certainly not the quickest of strategies, it
DOES work.
gpc...@yahoo.com
You can't fix this thing ...
It's broken from top to bottom ...
Stop and go, stop and go, stop and go ...please ... I buy a SR game for
non-stop action, not to try and read print and directions and poker
cards on a DMD
It's really too bad that this is the best these super talented guys
seem to be able to do
And they are talented ...
Why not bring Brian Eddy back and let him design a game?
Gary/Arizona
TheKorn
@charter.net:
> JCZ wrote:
>
>> Why do you consider clueless as an insult.
>
> I guess it's because I've just never seen or heard the word "clueless"
> used to complement someone.
*rofl*
I think Rick is right; if you're *trying* to piss people off, then clueless
is a pretty good word to use. Otherwise, there are a ton of other words
("ill advised") that convey the same meaning, just in a less personal way.
Tony The Squid
gpct...@yahoo.com wrote:
> You can't fix this thing ...
>
> It's broken from top to bottom ...
>
It's been out now for one day!!! But I guess you're right, the same
has been said about you...
Rian
metallik
lonely and go away again.
TheKorn
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> If I was Keith I would just move onto the next game ...
>
> You can't fix this thing ...
>
> It's broken from top to bottom ...
(chuckle)
That's both hilarious and simultaneously absolutely preposterous. The
only things that you really *can't* change about the game at this stage
is the playfield layout. And luckily, that's *fairly* solid. (Maybe a
little twitchy depending on the setup, but I can live with that.)
And that's also the reason for the STD; things can, do, and in this case
hopefully WILL change in the future. Since the 'default' state (i.e.
power turned off) state for stabby and stoppy is to NOT stop the ball,
it'd be trivial to "reverse" the decision to use them so much.
Similarly, it wouldn't take much to say, "ok, let's do something
*interesting* with no-limit" rather than light all the big red arrows.
For all we know, it could be placeholder code in there right now.
And those two things along would make *major* changes to how the game
feels, plays, and interacts with the player. (For the better, I'd add!)
So no, I absolutely wouldn't call the game 'broken from top to bottom' by
*any* stretch. Its problems *can* be fixed, since they don't involve the
manufacturing line.
JCZ
TheKorn wrote:
I think Rick is right
*LOL* (many many times). He was not trying to complement anyone. He
was criticizing Stern for the artwork. That was it. Then the usual
cast of characters pile on.
Rick and you turned it into an insult. (And in your own words the
catalyst) Let me use it in a simple sentence.
**First time buyers are usually clueless when buying a pinball
machine**
(I know I was. Should I be insulted by this statement. NO).
Jeff
Rick Swanson
TheKorn wrote:
>
>
> whack-a-mole style,
>
>
>
That's pretty much my technique on ALL pinball machines. I just didn't
know the name for it until now.
In fact, I'm gonna check Tennessee's personalized license plates website
to see if "Whack-A-Mole" is available. Some rodent exterminator has
probably already got it though. I'll probably have to incorporate my
first name into it in order to come up with some variation that *is*
available. Do you suppose "Whack-A-Dick" is already taken? ;-)
Rick Swanson
gpc...@yahoo.com
You guys used to rip Stern to shreds and now suddenly they can do no
wrong
This game isn't going to be a hit
The reviews are lousy
The art is lousy
The game is all stop and go
If I hear that the software isn't finished one more time, I think I am
going to just give the hobby up once and for all
Let's hope for a better title and design next time ...
=)
Gary/Arizona
Rick Swanson
JCZ wrote:
>TheKorn wrote:
>
>I think Rick is right
>
>*LOL* (many many times). He was not trying to complement anyone. He
>was criticizing Stern for the artwork. That was it. Then the usual
>cast of characters pile on.
>Rick and you turned it into an insult. (And in your own words the
>catalyst) Let me use it in a simple sentence.
>
>**First time buyers are usually clueless when buying a pinball
>machine**
>
>(I know I was. Should I be insulted by this statement. NO).
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
Yes, but Jeff, that certainly wasn't the context in which Gary's
comments were made. The context was in the form of "the long time owner
of a business doesn't know how to operate his own business". I can't
image any businessman not taking that sort of comment as an insult.
Rick Swanson
kirb
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> You guys used to rip Stern to shreds and now suddenly they can do no
> wrong
Replace "you guys" with "Gary" and "Stern" with "WMS" and now we are
talking about you. Flip flopper.
> If I hear that the software isn't finished one more time, I think I am
> going to just give the hobby up once and for all
The software isn't finished
The software will fix everything
The software isn't finished
The software will be it's savior
The software isn't finished
The software is going to be great
The software isn't finished
Is that enough?
Kirb
kirb
Rick Swanson wrote:
> In fact, I'm gonna check Tennessee's personalized license plates website
> to see if "Whack-A-Mole" is available. Some rodent exterminator has
> probably already got it though. I'll probably have to incorporate my
> first name into it in order to come up with some variation that *is*
> available. Do you suppose "Whack-A-Dick" is already taken? ;-)
Stay away from "whack a ho" or "whack your mo" or "beats his wife"
Kirb
Superpin Al
kirb wrote:
> gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > If I hear that the software isn't finished one more time, I think I am
> > going to just give the hobby up once and for all
>
> The software isn't finished
> The software will fix everything
> The software isn't finished
> The software will be it's savior
> The software isn't finished
> The software is going to be great
> The software isn't finished
>
> Is that enough?
>
> Kirb
Don't you wish it was that easy, Kirb.
Bryan Kelly
your opinions, well, sometimes it is, but more so, the way you present
them that pisses people off.
With you, it seems to be all or nothing. He's either the GREATEST in
the world or he absolutely sucks.
There is a middle of the road at times. :-)
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the world renowned EXECUTIVE Pin Footie
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/album79
Make your pin feel like one of the family.
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Rick ...
>
> I just shelled out good money for a NIB Nascar
>
> I have an Elvis, RBION and T3 here in the gameroom
>
> I am a customer of Gary Stern
>
> I am going to tell you what most everyone else is thinking, the people
> who are doing the art or approving the art or whatever at Stern are
> totally clueless
>
> Look at the apron decals on Elvis and then tell me I am wrong
>
> Look at Sopranos and then tell me I am wrong
>
> Look at any art on WPT and then tell me that I am wrong
>
> The games tend to be ulgy and the pixelated artwork in 2006 is mind
> boggling
>
> my opinions as a customer
>
> Gary/Arizona
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6256587389
kirb
Superpin Al wrote:
> Don't you wish it was that easy, Kirb.
I clicked my heels a few times too...
Kirb
Ben
>"Big Question: Has anyone ever considered putting the DMD right on the
>playfield..."
>
>While not DMDs, these games used displays to convey info to the player:
>BLY Mr & Mrs Pac-Man had a Score Display in the PF
>BLY Medusa had a Score Display in the PF
>GTB Caveman had a Monitor in the PF
>GTB Black Hole had a Score Display in the PF
>GTB Haunted House had a Score Display in the PF
>WMS SW:EP1 had a Monitor reflect info/animations onto the PF glass
>WMS RFM has a Monitor reflect info/animations onto the PF glass
BLY Vector has one too :-)
Bowen Kerins
every month to let Steve Ritchie come on here and bitchslap Gary some
more, it was one of the best posts I've ever read on RGP (since
November 1992).
I don't know how you can say WPT is a dog from three local guys' review
of a pre-release software version -- and come on, they're clearly
marked as grumpy. Looks like an excellent playfield design for me, and
quite creative; not sure if you've looked around but most Steve Ritchie
designs don't have 16 drop targets or an upper playfield with 4 more
shots.
I've heard more local buzz about WPT than any other game in the last
two years -- as both a good theme and a good collaboration with Ritchie
& Keefer. I sincerely look forward to playing it, and I am almost
completely certain it won't be a "dog".
But nice job supporting the new production of games, Arizona Gary, and
nice job slamming them for 6 years of trying to keep pinball alive.
The alternative is no new games, so I'll take all the pixelated
graphics in the world before I take the alternative.
- Bowen
Mark_in_PA
missing at this point is your man Karl singing your praises
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think the review was very well done
>
> I believe it says that the Poker/Pin integration is very weak
>
> but the TV Show/Pin integration is strong
>
> Meanwhile the game is all start and stop so that you have time to
> concentrate on the poker aspect
>
> very tough theme to work with
>
> The artwork is the poorest on any game in recent or long term memory
>
> Look at the apron artwork on a WMS and then look at the apron artwork
> on a recent Stern and you will realize that good old Gary Stern is
> clueless when it comes to making games look good. Is it really cheaper
> to print pixelated garbage artwork than really nice smooth WMS style
> artwork? Isn't printing, printing regardless of quality?
>
> I'm doing my part to support Stern as I just purchased a NIB Nascar
> from Jess at United (Pat Lawlor still has the magic), but WPT has all
> the earmarks of a dog
>
> take care everybody ...
>
> Gary/Arizona
Magic Mike
artists....
I think that it's an insult to the consumer that Stern is raising the
prices of their pins and not improving on the art resolution.
I'm sorry but a $4K pinball should not have artwork that looks like the
Sunday comics!
Mike
Magic Mike
Well then, stop riding his dick if that's the case everytime he makes a
post. Ignore him like everybody else does.
Mike
Ron Strom
spiderNO...@msn.com says...
are the way of life. We have just look around us to ascertain that.
Do you realistically think that the average "consumer" who will drop
money into a pinball on location for a little short term entertainment
gives a "rats ass", so to speak, about the dots in the art on the cab or
pf? I think not.
I really don't believe that the operators who still buy and route these
pins are concerned about the art. They're looking at the bottom line;
will this machine pay for itself and make me some profit; no more, no
less.
IMNSHO, I find it "insulting" that folks dis on Stern for any little
perceived flaw when all he is trying to do is keep the Chicago tradition
alive and make a decent living in the current market conditions.
OK! Rant off :)
--
Ron -- CARGPB7 -- (Change the hot to ice to email)
DaCore
So you can say that they responded to you personally.
I guess that would be a big ego boost for you.
But if i were them i would ignore you.
You're just constantly repeating yourself,
you're yelling like a spoiled child who can't get what it asks,
really that's the impression you give,
do you really want to be like that.
I use pins for playing, that way i don't see the pixelated art,
i am concentrating on the ball instead. You should try it ;)
Just my opnion.
BTW have you played the game yet ?
kirb
Re-read the thread. Everyone else isn't
Kirb
John Bigbooty
point. You don't like the artwork and you don't like the theme. Most
people agree that the pixelated art is weak point of the Stern lineup.
It simply isn't necessary to interject this same message at least 6
times into this thread.
Your opinions are worthwhile, but your spewing them over and over
again is truly annoying.
Mark
Norcoss GA
On 23 Feb 2006 11:31:59 -0800, gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>Rick ...
>
>I am not insulting them as people
>
>I am talking about the work
>
>Stern games look like total garbage (WPT is the worst looking game in
>modern day history and some of the others are right behind it)
>
>Gary Stern needs to find someone that understands basic art on an
>arcade machine
>
>The games play great, but look like pixelated trash
>
>Compare them to a WMS game ... good artwork shouldn't cost that much
>more than the garbage they are doing now ... printing is printing ...
>Is the price cheaper to print them up because of all the pixelated
>colors?
>
>Is that how he saves money?
>
>Everyone says it behind the scenes
>
>Everybody knows that it is true
>
>my views
>
>Gary/Arizona
metallik
> again is truly annoying.
Ever since Steve ripped him a new one on here, he's been trying to bash
WPT as much as he can in some petty attempt at retribution. Just
ignore him.
Gman3
>November 1992
can someone post the link ( tried googling but the word gary floods my
archive search )
Bryan Kelly
Or just search for "new stern in mono"
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the world renowned EXECUTIVE Pin Footie
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/album79
Make your pin feel like one of the family.
Josh A.
> can someone post the link ( tried googling but the word gary floods my
> archive search )
Here's my favorite part:
"As always, it is hard to take your posts seriously, because you spew
misinformation frequently and infamously. This is a sad state of
affairs, and deserves my rebuttal at least this once. I truly believe
many rgp'ers are rejoicing that I call you on your repeated
spreading of disinformation. This kind of behavior detracts from
pinball, and is especially harmful to people new to the hobby who may
take your data at face value. Is this your intention? I was wondering
if I might ask you to stop posting disinformation. Will you please
stop, Gary?"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/msg/c26518002a77034b
Max Badazz
example. From a distance of no more than a few feet, it blends in.
Plus all it does is sit there. That artwork does not control the flow
of the game, that artwork does not play music or sounds, that artwork
does not save my high scores, and that artwork does not light up "shoot
again". I can't imagine anyone worth a rats ass who likes pinball to
see a Stern pin and not play because the sideart is not "Williams"
quality. Does everyone on RGP own a TV with HD? If you don't, do you
just read books by the candlelight because the resolution is not the
same as HDTV? Gimme a break with this sideart BS. Beating yet another
dead horse. I don't usually chime in on these things, but enough is
enough. Take a look at the old stencil sideart of such great 70's and
early 80's titles (Gorgar, Centaur, Flash, etc)and tell me its better
and crisper than "Williams". Two colors painted does not have the
quality of a MM or CV, but once again, who cares?? (stretching the
comparison there, but you get my point) Games play great and are in
many peoples collection. Now playfield art and backglasses are a
totally different subject. You are stuck looking at those while
playing.
Chris (in NH) - who is not a pinball racist. All pin sideart skins are
equal in my eyes :)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/maxbadazz
pinballjim
Max Badazz wrote:
> the sideart is not "Williams"
> quality.
Let's keep in mind that Williams "quality" involved gigantic black
lines to cover up registration errors.
gpc...@yahoo.com
important than the customers opinion?
You fawn over Steve Ritchie like school girls fawned over Donnie Osmond
in 1977
I pay the money
You pay the money ...
Trust me, without us, Stern would probably be bye-bye
just my two cents ...
If it wasn't so cutting, you guys would just ignore it
=)
Gary/Arizona
Mark Salas
>metallik wrote:
> Ever since Steve ripped him a new one on here,
Your joking right? Steve asked him to stop the disinformation
shenanigans. I would hardly call the quote, ripping someone a new
one!!!
metallik
gpc...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I don't get why you guys think that the designers opinion is more
> important than the customers opinion?
Steve Ritchie is one of the most successful designers in pinball
history, with 17 games to his credit selling well over 100,000 units.
Gary Stern is the owner of a profitable pinball manufacturing company,
not only successfully weathering a bad market, but even expanding over
the last six years.
You are an unemployed left-wing radio hack who likes to collect (but
apparently not play) pinball machines.
Nothing more need be said.
> If it wasn't so cutting, you guys would just ignore it
Cutting.. like a fart, oozing along the floor, making people sick to
their stomachs...
gpc...@yahoo.com
What was the disinformation?
I just said that I thought it would have been good if the new system
was in stereo
I couldn't give bad information, because I don't understand the first
thing about a CPU system that runs one of these machines
I am an audio buff, so I would have liked stereo
That's what started Steve and everyone else on the rampage
A rampage that means nothing, because I am the customer
Just like you are ...
=)
Gary/Arizona
metallik
> shenanigans. I would hardly call the quote, ripping someone a new
> one!!!
I'd say "grossly unfounded criticism" and "you spew misinformation
frequently and infamously" are polite ways of saying "you're a lying
shithead" and would fit my definition...
Mark Salas
because my definition requires a little more juice. Now if he actually
said "your're a lying shithead" then I am right with you!!! :)
gpc...@yahoo.com
been nice if it had stereo
It was a very legit comment from a paying customer
A concept some of you just don't understand
They produce good stuff, I buy ...
They produce bad stuff, I don't buy ...
I understand, you are supposed to only voice opinions on RGP that agree
wtih the overall view of the group
=)
Gary/Arizona
kirb
I thought you told me to ignore the troll? :)
FWIW- I think anyone's opinion is worth more than Gary's opinion. SR
hit the nail on the head- quit spreading wrong information.
Kirb
gpc...@yahoo.com
If I say that I wish the new system had stereo, how is that "wrong
information"?
It's "wrong" that I want it to have stereo?
It's just a simple opinion ...
Gary/Arizona
kirb
I am going to reply to this ONCE to clear up your lies. I am not going
to feed into your trolling behavior. You are a liar and here is why:
You said:
"The game should be in stereo "
"Stern needs the home market "
"A new system with better audio would make the game that much more
attractive "
SR listed WHY the game had better audio and WHY the game didn't need
stereo to be better. Higher sample rates will give better audio. There
isn't enough stereo seperation to justify DOUBLE the hardware and
memory to pull it off. Others tried it and failed. Stern learned from
others mistakes. MANY people here understand that trading stereo for
higher sample rates = better overall audio.
You spewed:
"What is the point of a "new system" if it doesn't do much of anything
better than the "old system" ... We've been hearing about this system
for years and what does it end up doing? "
SR then indicated all the nice little features that had yet to be
issued to the public. You don't have enough understanding to know WHY
these improvements were needed.
More bullshit deleted, then you said:
"I wouldn't buy another Stern "
You just stated you bought a NASCAR, so you don't even believe your own
shit. Another lie.
What you CONSTANLY fail to understand about SR's comments is that he
was responding to your OVERALL lack of information. Your CONSTANT false
statements about Stern flops, sales numbers, going out of business, etc
that you know nothing about... Not only just the new Stern system. You
constantly take things out of context and attempt to boil them down to
one thing to suit your agenda.
That is the last word on this. Everyone who has met you in person likes
you, most people on the group think you are a jerkoff. Drop the split
personality. Go ahead and try to spin this, Gary Cubeta.
Kirb
Dave Pauk
artwork....especially if all he's doing is LOOKING at the games.
Hey Gary, here's an idea. Try playing them for change. You might notice
there's a little metal silver ball that moves around in there, and it
might distract you from the pixelated artwork.
Better yet, if you want some "really" great artwork to look at, pick up
a few EMs for chrissakes. Those were true works of art, not some movie
poster stuck in a box with a flourescent light behind it.
Oh right, CH doesn't do EMs.....
Dave
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/dmp65
metallik
road.. sometimes you can't help but take a look (and react). It looks
like he's selling his furniture collection.. maybe he'll get rid of
them all and go back to trolling on the satellite newsgroups.
gpc...@yahoo.com
Post anything that the mob doesn't like and you will get flamed into
the ground
Nice group ...
Something as simple as thinking Stern should have included stereo in
their new system
You'll get flamed
Even the designer of the game will come on RGP just to make sure that
your opinion is trashed right into the ground
In this hobby the customer is always wrong
=)
Gary/Arizona
Pinwizlew
You know just maybe you are not Stern's only customer (thank god). Your
opinion on here is in the minority, which is quite obvious, and I would
venture to say that your opinion is in the minority of all of Stern's
customers. If you stated your opinion with some tact without dragging
everyone else into your customer category you could generate some positive
posts. You do bring up valid points from time to time but how can they be
looked at seriously when you bring along with them a lot of BS. Lose the BS
and bring in the valid points written in an intelligent way and contribute
to the newsgroup.
See RGP used to be a very positive place where people came together to
help each other and further the hobby along. Your constant bashing and
hoopity hoopla that you speak is annoying and does nothing to better the
hobby. It just clutters the newsgroup. You proved that you can generate a
lot of knee jerk reaction in the group. Congratulations. But if you don't
like RGP or what the members think why post here?
You keep posting about "Group think" but when someone disagrees with
"Gary think" you go ballistic. You state that we are all group thinkers
just because some are not inline with your own thoughts. You defend your
thoughts just like everyone else defends there's. Lose the insults and post
relative posts. If you hate RGP so much then why not just go on about your
own business. Why start the controversy? What possible good does this
accomplish, for what I assume, your own hobby that you love? I understand
that controversy for your former Radio show was good for ratings but lets
face it this isn't your job. This is your hobby. There is no personal
advertising agenda to further your hobby. Do you just do it to keep your
wits? I really honestly do not understand it. Enlighten me and everyone
else. WHY?
I am quite sure that you are a stand up guy when you are face to face
with someone. A few people have posted that you are. You seem to do a lot
of good for specific other collectors. Why not continue this in RGP? RGP
can be a great resource so why bite the hand that can possibly feed you?
Why not make amends with the group. I by no means am trying to say that you
shouldn't have your own opinions. I am not saying that you shouldn't voice
them on RGP. I just think if you brought them into the group as opinions
and not voice them as facts that it would be better for RGP and the hobby in
general. -Mike
<gpc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140826973.9...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
gpc...@yahoo.com
I have no idea what you are trying to say
I have my right to my opinions and you have the right to yours
I don't even think some of you read, what I print
You just start commenting on it ...
If you look at anything I post, it usually starts out with me saying
something like "Stern should have stereo in their new system" and then
the entire world jumping down my throat for daring to say something so
"controversial"
It's nutty ...
I don't understand why I have such an effect on some of you
You need to look in the mirror people ...
I didn't create Gary/Arizona, you did ...
=)
Gary/Arizona
kin...@aol.com
Karl
Mark_in_PA wrote:
> thanks for turning this into another 100+ Gary thread. The only thing
> missing at this point is your man Karl singing your praises
>
Hey Pal,
Gary's a straight up guy... A real straight shooter.. Maybe you should
have a beer with Gary someday... Maybe you'd be singing a different
tune too...
I've been taking a slight side track in the fish group because I
stumbled onto a deal on a 55 gal complete set up, Cheap but needed alot
of work... Clown loaches now reside there only two weeks later... That
group is also less "bickering".
"We had a lot of laughs, we had a lot of fun, well now you won't have
Karl R to kick around anymore." (Say like "the great" Richard Millhouse
Nixon) Ha ha. you won't get rid of me that easy!! Ha ha ha ha...
Peace out..
Specail K.
Cliffy
But there is always hope so I can't fault your effort :)
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com