WPT questions...?
Dan G.
regarding your machine versus the machine TGOM used for their review.
1. Is there a problem with getting the ball to stick in the left VUK? Steve
Ritchie had mentioned that they fixed this shot by using a one way gate...is
this the case?
2. Both the TGOM and the pinballnews reviews mention that the right orbit
rarely orbits...instead feeding into the pops or hitting a one way gate.
What is the deal with this right "orbit" shot?
3. Is there a way to remove the metal bar behind the 4 center drop targets
to get more bounce?
Seeing that the TGOM reviewed software version 1.04, I had a few questions
about the latest release 1.06
4. Have you noticed more balanced scoring with the newest software?
5. Have the modes improved?
6. Have the rules for the upper playfield hurry up improved? From the sound
of the TGOM review, it is pretty much worthless to ever go for the hurry
up...I really hope this isn't the case.
7. Are "stabby" and "stoppy" frustrating you? Do you think the game would
be better with these disabled?
8. Finally, how far away from LOTR's or TSPP's "depth of rules" is WPT?
(Does anyone know if there is the equivalent of a Valinor or SDMEWM wizard
mode in WPT?)
Thanks!
---Dan
Todd Lainhart
> 1. Is there a problem with getting the ball to stick in the left VUK? Steve
> Ritchie had mentioned that they fixed this shot by using a one way gate...is
> this the case?
I haven't had a problem. Once in the VUK, it can take 1-3 tries to
clear the ball onto the upper PF. I haven't heard of others with that
problem, so it might just be a setup problem with mine.
I will note that the "gate" at the top of the right ramp could have
been better machined. As it is, it's prone to sticking because it
extends past the backboard and can get hung up in the wires. Plus,
it's goofy designed - a piece of bent wire constrains the travel by
hitting the ramp. Could be that given the constraints that was the
only way to design it, but I see that as a weakness that could break
over time - I already see some wear on it.
>2. Both the TGOM and the pinballnews reviews mention that the right orbit
>rarely orbits...instead feeding into the pops or hitting a one way gate.
>What is the deal with this right "orbit" shot?
It's true that it rarely orbits. I can't say if that's a bug or
feature. Perhaps SR will chime in at some point and give some insight
as to what it's supposed to do. Doesn't bother me though, like the
left orbit shot on LOTR does.
> 3. Is there a way to remove the metal bar behind the 4 center drop targets
> to get more bounce?
Haven't checked. I don't see a problem with it at the moment. I do
see some holes for some star posts - don't know if there are t-nuts
backing those. If true, then you could support it there.
>4. Have you noticed more balanced scoring with the newest software?
Haven't noticed.
>5. Have the modes improved?
Don't know. Don't have a baseline to compare against. Game shipped
with 1.06. There's certainly a lot of modes though. That Keith - he's
so hot right now.
>6. Have the rules for the upper playfield hurry up improved? From the sound
>of the TGOM review, it is pretty much worthless to ever go for the hurry
>up...I really hope this isn't the case.
Again, don't know. Haven't paid attention to know what the
risk/rewards are. It is a hard shot to clear though.
It's a bit weird that a successful "Mystery" shot is defined by putting
the ball in that hole, and it just bounces out - I really want it to do
something more than that, but I don't know what/how. Plus, although
the shot says "Mystery", it really means "light the 'Cut The Cards'
feature", at which time a Mystery award is awarded. I looked all over
for a "Mystery" insert on the PF - I was a bit confused for a while.
I really like the mini-PF.
>7. Are "stabby" and "stoppy" frustrating you? Do you think the game would
>be better with these disabled?
I like stabby and stoppy. I'm more of a Lawlor guy, and this seems
more like a Lawlor pin like that. I like the idea that it stops to
game to get your bearings. I think that at this point (with only a
handful of games under my belt) I'd rather have them than not. "Flow"
is not a big deal for me, although I'll say that for flow machines, my
preferences are Shadow, AFM and STTNG. Shadow/Super Vengeance,
STTNG/Warp Nine - that's flow for you.
It's probably the coin references, but weirdly the game reminds me of a
little of SafeCracker - only in terms of superficialities I guess
(coins, voice-overs, etc.).
>8. Finally, how far away from LOTR's or TSPP's "depth of rules" is WPT?
>(Does anyone know if there is the equivalent of a Valinor or SDMEWM wizard
>mode in WPT?)
My intuition is that this is a thinking-man's game, as you start to
plumb the depths. Because it's all about points, you'll be
strategizing to maximize them. Like Josh said in a previous post,
you'll be making decisions whether to play or fold based on your hand.
It's not so directed as "Destroy the Ring", etc. But that's a good
thing - very open.
If tournament play takes off, strategizing for points will be a big
deal.
To answer your question re depth vs. TSPP and LOTR - another I don't
know. I've owned both those games, and this one is different. I have
a sense that there's a lot of depth there that I haven't (and won't)
get to for a while. There's a ton of things to do, and lots of
choices.
At some point Bowen is going to stop over and give it a spin to plumb
those depths, and I'm sure that he'll have more to say at that time.
-- Todd
PS - Contrary to what others have said, I find a big difference in the
flipper feel (in a positive way). I haven't played Nascar or Sopranos
for any real time, so I don't know if they've improved since then, but
they have a much more tactile feel than my previous Sterns or RBION.
Perhaps it's just the leaf switches - I want to check that out and see
if I can replace Elvis' mechanism with that. In short - the flips feel
great on this machine.
The artwork isn't as repellent as I thought it might be. I don't like
the artist's work, so I hope that Stern doesn't use him again, but it
doesn't bother me. You have to live with the fact that the theme isn't
timeless (I'm talking WPT itself, not poker), like LOTR or the Simpsons
- and the backglass art fits that. The PF art is certainly well-done.
If it really does bother some folks for the home, just a translight
replacement should make you happy. But if you own it, you'll be
playing it, not looking at it.
Dots and sound are top-notch. I'm sure that the good folks at Stern
did (and are doing) some serious hump-busting to get all of this to
come together. "Job well-done" to the entire team!
Mark_in_PA
I can't answer all of them but here are some observations:
1. A gate is installed on the left VUK and seems to work well.
2. I don't think you can make a right orbit. There is a gate.
4. I have ver 1.5. I haven't noticed anything unusual but I'm usually
preoccupied just keeping the ball in play.
6. Hurry up on the upper playfield seems OK (if I understand it
correctly)
7. Ahh, "stabby" and "stoppy"....really only annoys me when moving on
to the next city. Should be cancelable
8. No where near TSPP in depth of rules from what I've been told. Since
I think the LOTR rules are my all time favorite, that would be tough to
beat. The WPT is not there yet (unless I'm missing something)
Keep in mind I just got mine on Friday.
Mark
Mark_in_PA
I was having trouble with the VUK as well. Turns out some of the
harness under the playfield was tangled up in it. Clearing that up took
care of it.
Now I need to get 1.06 software. Mine has 1.05
Mark
Mark_in_PA
easily removed. I'm not not quite sure why it is there. The holes
(which are a little unsightly, are not t-nutted.
mcbla...@verizon.net
TSPP and LOTR
derek
kin...@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
Subject: Re: WPT questions...?
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:21:39 -0800
OK, *The Chime In*
This is a long book, but you ask questions, and I answer them:
1. There were a few funky VUK gates on the protos, the production VUKS
seem to be working fine.
2. The right orbit won't orbit unless you remove a gate wire form.
There is a gate wire form at the TOP upper LEFT orbit. The wire can be
removed, and the ball will orbit both directions. Try it. If you
don't like how it plays, put the gate wire back in. The gate adds Jet
action sometimes.
3. The bar behind the center bank prevents airballs, and the targets go
down better under extreme flipper hits while the flippers are new. As
the game wears in, it should be OK to take the bar off, but then: try
adding a second rubber to the posts.
For commercial use (when the game ages a bit) I would suggest maybe
putting the t-nuts and clear cylinder posts in all the holes along with
the 2 rubbers. Black rubbers last much longer than white, we went with
black so that more games would stay better and playable and able to
earn money and work when you play them.
Colored rubber does not contain as much lampblack (carbon) and
lampblack is coincidently, black. Colored rubber is weaker and will not
last as long. Black rubber has lots of carbon in it's composition.
It strengthens the rubber (as in tires).
You can change rubber color to anything you want, but colored flipper
rings wear very quickly, and are a lot more bouncy, some people find
that the ball is harder to control, an often heard opinion, but many
like the action of colored flipper rings. You can put any kind of
rubber you want on a WPT. In a home environment, it all works OK.
4. There are software mods coming that make many improvements.
5. There is nothing wrong with the modes, but you need to play the game
yourself.
Remember this: TGOM hates lots of games, and they get to. They hated
TSPP. TSPP has been very successful. I think TGOM is waaay off base
here, kinda like watching the Superbowl...a lot of bad calls.
<T3 to TGOM> YOU SCREWED IT UP!
One member worships Black Rose....I smell vomit........I won't be
making him happy with any of my designs any time soon.
*ChOke..BLEEEEEAHH!!* This indicates Total Negation of Input. Here
is a little bitter truth:
At Williams internally, (!) many of us called it BLACK HOSE!!
Sales were dismal in a an era when pinball was going BIG.
Yancy's got his opinions and they are all wrong!! :<))
<BK2K> BWAAA-HA-HA-HA!
Korn, well, he just can't help it!! There is a morbid fear of
gynocological hands, he may have been abused!! :<))
Of TGOM, Yancy, and to some extent Korn, can at least play pinball.
But there is still no accounting for taste.
<NF to Wolffy> PLAY BETTER! Please. For God's sake.
Please see the review at pinballnews.com, Martin actually played a
better software rev and spent a lot of time going through the rules,
far more thorough and seriously for what existed at the time, and
asking questions of Stern employees. Martin doesn't seem to be grumpy
and hasn't been pissed off by either Keith or I.
There are lots of fun things to do in this game, and Keith
and I would not let anyone down as far as depth goes. We were a bit
late, but the code is still growing every day.
6. See #5. You need to play the game and maybe read Bowen Kerin's WPT
post.
7. TGOM are *not the first* to mention the solenoids that stop the
balls on the ramps. It has been a major debate topic for months at
Stern. We have new software coming that will allow you to turn the
ramp solenoids "OFF" and it may be ready tomorrow.
The option to turn the solenoids off should have been included in the
first release, but
for commercial use, we chose SOLENOID POSTS "ON" This was the
primary modus operandi. Here's why:
WPT is a home entertainment device. WPT is also a commercial
revenue-earning device. (In terms of sales and the longevity of the
pinball industry, those statements should be reversed in order, but
this is RGP...we love you, dudes) It will be predominantly operated in
drinking establishments.
WPT allows players to compete for "The Best Texas
Hold 'Em Hand" (winner of said "Best T.H.E. Hand" is shown at the end
of the game), as well as the Highest Score.
After a couple drinks, things get blurry, attention spans may wander,
and maybe people are playing for drinks or *who knows what else*..it
happens in bars. Hmmm. "Random Number Generator".....reality
check.....isn't that how cards come off the deck, randomly? Cha-Ching?
The solenoid posts make the game a little more casual, to give the
player a little break, a little playtime for some smack talk, before
the storm of multiball and the normal pinball madness arrives.
In the spirit of trying to make pinball more accessible for the masses,
we try stuff. Your game doesn't have to stop the balls on the posts.
You night not find it bad at all.
When you complete a city, you have also completed a T.H.E. hand, you
get enough time to look at your cards, pick up your beer, take a swig,
put it back down, and grab the flipper buttons again. You will be able
to disable these solenoid posts as an option.
Also, Keith inadvertently took out the software that HOLDS BALLS
MOMENTARILY at various places during MULTIBALL. TGOM were right about
this missing on the proto they played. It needs to be in WPT and
compliments the playfield geometry.
8. The rules on WPT are deep. No spoilers here. It will take a lot of
play to see everything.
I know that you guys want serious answers and here they are. I am also
having a little fun. If TGOM can do it, I can do it.
I am just trying to make the best pinball machines that I can in hopes
of prolonging the life of pinball.
I am prepared for the flame-boys and the AZ Insanity Contingent to LASH
OUT. Flame Suit On.
-Steve
Dan G.
week and I just can't wait!
---Dan (who will definitely be removing the gate so the right orbit orbits
:) )
<kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1141087578.7...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
pinballjim
So what? What percentage of these games on location will actually get
updated?? I've *never* played a location game and come up to it later
and found that the ROM revision has been changed. *EVER*.
You guys can code until you're blue in the face. Fact remains you
shipped this thing with apparently severe annoyances and I have my
doubts that most players will ever see updated code.
PT
system. Upgrades are with a USB dongle.
John
azpinlawyer
of the hospital). I've just GOT to play this thing! Anyone want to
come help me set the thing up?
Donnie Barnes
Keep.
It.
Coming.
Yes, that's only three words. Say it twice, and the second time, WITH
FEELING. :-)
--Donnie
--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
TheKorn
@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
> Remember this: TGOM hates lots of games, and they get to. They hated
> TSPP. TSPP has been very successful. I think TGOM is waaay off base
> here, kinda like watching the Superbowl...a lot of bad calls.
>
> <T3 to TGOM> YOU SCREWED IT UP!
Have to admit I laughed when I read this. :)
> Yancy's got his opinions and they are all wrong!! :<))
Oh, come on now Steve... They can't ALL be wrong. YBX doesn't live in
Arizona. ;)
> Korn, well, he just can't help it!! There is a morbid fear of
> gynocological hands, he may have been abused!! :<))
I dunno, I think it makes sense that I'd be afraid of a hand that's
larger than my head. But maybe that's just *me*.
And my mommy still loves me. I think. :)
> 7. TGOM are *not the first* to mention the solenoids that stop the
> balls on the ramps. It has been a major debate topic for months at
> Stern. We have new software coming that will allow you to turn the
> ramp solenoids "OFF" and it may be ready tomorrow.
Thank goodness. This is really where WPT fell down the flight of stairs
for me. It's *exactly* the same reaction I had to the Blue Suede Shoes
magnet stopping the ball *every* *stinkin* *loop*. Except now, of
course, there are *two* of them.
IMHO, there are two things you just can't do under any circumstances.
The first 'cardinal sin', as it were, is to stop the ball excessively.
(Granted, "excessive" is a judgement call.) A compromise would be to
hold balls for hold 'em for the first hand, and then let them fly after
that. The player puts in money to operate the flippers, not to watch a
machine hold a ball motionless on a habitrail!
The second 'cardinal sin' is to not give the player a chance. Much as I
hate to say it, the SOL from AFM comes to mind when it fires a ball SDTM,
no ballsave. If the player *mis* plays a ball, it's on the player. But
if the player doesn't even have a chance, then it's on the game. [second
sin isn't relevant to WPT, but figured I'd mention it for completeness
sake.]
Again IMHO, if you do either of those then you've broken the basic
contract with the player.
> After a couple drinks, things get blurry, attention spans may wander,
> and maybe people are playing for drinks or *who knows what else*..it
> happens in bars. Hmmm. "Random Number Generator".....reality
> check.....isn't that how cards come off the deck, randomly? Cha-Ching?
> The solenoid posts make the game a little more casual, to give the
> player a little break, a little playtime for some smack talk, before
> the storm of multiball and the normal pinball madness arrives.
>
> In the spirit of trying to make pinball more accessible for the masses,
> we try stuff. Your game doesn't have to stop the balls on the posts.
> You night not find it bad at all.
>
> When you complete a city, you have also completed a T.H.E. hand, you
> get enough time to look at your cards, pick up your beer, take a swig,
> put it back down, and grab the flipper buttons again. You will be able
> to disable these solenoid posts as an option.
Glad to hear it! That's my absolute #1 biggest bitch about WPT as it
currently stands. Truth be told, I don't mind the *city* animations
holding the ball; they make nice chapter breaks. But when you have them
also as every stinkin' card in every hand comes up, well now you're back
in cardinal sin territory.
Think about it this way... After a while, I realized after playing that
I'd gotten poker hands, I'd gotten chip tricks, and what I had left to do
was get all the citities. So I started to shoot ONLY for hold'em hands;
I shot nothing else (deliberately, at any rate). And it took *forever*.
Let's see, six citites... first city takes 1 hold 'em hand, second city
takes 2, 3, 4, 5 and 5. OK, so that's 30 hands total. But each hand
takes 3 shots, so that's 90 ramp shots.
Now each ramp shot holds the ball for roughly 3 seconds. 270 seconds of
full on dead ball stop time?? C'MON STEVE! You *KNOW* that's not good
for ball in play time average!!
> Also, Keith inadvertently took out the software that HOLDS BALLS
> MOMENTARILY at various places during MULTIBALL. TGOM were right about
> this missing on the proto they played. It needs to be in WPT and
> compliments the playfield geometry.
D'oh! That's kind of funny, in hind sight.
> I know that you guys want serious answers and here they are. I am also
> having a little fun. If TGOM can do it, I can do it.
No. Verboten! No fun allowed here, ever! :)
TheKorn
news:Xns9777C8270...@207.115.17.102:
> Let's see, six citites... first city takes 1 hold 'em hand, second
> city takes 2, 3, 4, 5 and 5. OK, so that's 30 hands total. But each
> hand takes 3 shots, so that's 90 ramp shots.
>
> Now each ramp shot holds the ball for roughly 3 seconds. 270 seconds
> of full on dead ball stop time?? C'MON STEVE! You *KNOW* that's not
> good for ball in play time average!!
Yeah, let me fix that math...
"...OK, so that's 20 hands total. But each hand takes 3 shots, so that's
60 ramp shots."... etc. for a total of 180 seconds of full on dead ball
stop time.
pinballjim
How many of those ops have you met that know what "USB dongle" means?
PT
USB memory dongles... Not saying that all of the ops will catch on,
but it surely makes it a lot easier than burning and changing a
frappin' ROM chip!
John
metallik
> hold balls for hold 'em for the first hand, and then let them fly after
> that. The player puts in money to operate the flippers, not to watch a
> machine hold a ball motionless on a habitrail!
Hey, that was MY idea! Thief!! :)
Glad to hear it's being tweaked, though.
Donnie Barnes
> The second 'cardinal sin' is to not give the player a chance. Much as I
> hate to say it, the SOL from AFM comes to mind when it fires a ball SDTM,
> no ballsave. If the player *mis* plays a ball, it's on the player. But
> if the player doesn't even have a chance, then it's on the game. [second
> sin isn't relevant to WPT, but figured I'd mention it for completeness
> sake.]
On my game I get STDM fairly often on launches into the mini-playfield (to
the exit of the mini-playfield, not loss of ball), which *is* just about
the same thing. It's supposed to give me one flip, dammit!
I'm wondering if it'll break in or if I need to level it or if I'm just
being a whiner. But it's almost the same thing as what you're talking
about!
--Donnie
Todd Lainhart
LOL! That line trumps the TGOM review!
-- Todd
kin...@aol.com
-Steve
kin...@aol.com
the Upper Playfield. It has a huge adjustment range. I went to yor
website and you are a motorhead. You can do this. Loosen the screw
and move the tube, re-tighten (GENTLY) and see if you can't make the
ball drop so that it flows to the upper right flipper. Email me if you
have more trouble. Sorry you have to do this, but it's easy to change.
I assume your game is level and has a 6.5 degree playfield slope?
TheKorn
@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>>One member worships Black Rose....I smell vomit........
>
> LOL! That line trumps the TGOM review!
TGOM is more than one person, and more than one writer expressing more than
one point of view. Don't be so simplistic. I've gone off on BR *plenty*
in this NG. (And Dirty Harry, and IJ, and... TSPP. :) )
Rondogg
I can't wait to play WPT. I got so excited that my T2 feared ME
tonight. You would think that pinball hobbyists would simply than the
heavens that a new, improved machine was available rather than rip it
like it was the latest "wipe out".
Thanks for the extra words for Gary in AZ - he really is a turd. He
got rid of his CFTBL because the translite offended a family member!
(Insert joke here)
Ron
kin...@aol.com
w/f tube feeding the ball onto the upper playfield. There is a huge
range of adjustment up there, sorry you have to do it, but get the ol'
#2 Phillips out and move it around until you get it to drop the ball
where it should flow to the right flipper. I went to your website, and
you are a motorhead Donnie! You can do it. Email if you have trouble,
and it doesn't take a whole lot of torque!!
Sorry that you have to adjust it, but it's not hard.
-Steve
kin...@aol.com
>one point of view. Don't be so simplistic. I've gone off on BR *plenty*
>in this NG. (And Dirty Harry, and IJ, and... TSPP. :) )
There's half a brain in there somewhere!! It's a little hard to see
right now. TGOM's collective faces are BUTT MAGNETS!!
kin...@aol.com
should be beaten for it. Keith too. I kinda like the beatings, let me
put on my rubber suit first and that ball thing in my mouth!! Just tie
me up and let 'er rip!!
kin...@aol.com
what I posted really WAS posted. Almost ready to go back underground
as soon as I feel like all the WPT questions have been answered.
Steve
Lowlight
@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> The operators will love our downloadable revisions. It is easy, and
> quick.
>
> Are you an alien from NEGATIVE WORLD? If so, you need to pack your
> shit and evaporate!! Wait...I'll loan you my Colt 1911 .45 and you can
> self-eliminate!!!! Did you graduate from Curmudgeon University? You
> will be looking that up at dictionary.com (and you really did!!!!) I
> can't help but notice that you said FY to another pinball enthusiast
> who owns a good working BUTTHOLE DETECTOR. It detected
> correctly....YOU!!! You need to join up with TGOM.
>
> And you have played WPT how many times? How about NONE!!!!!! I can
> understand your attitude about pinball, a little fun, a little PSYCHO!
>
> What room number did you have at the Bates Motel? Put down that knife
> Norman, or I will have to break your neck like a chicken bone!!
>
>
Steve be going off.
metallik
Don't go TOO far underground, we need you around to keep gary in
line... :)
Still looking for a WPT in Cincy...
Donnie Barnes
> How many ops have you met that know how to use a toothbrush?
All of them. And I know a lot more ops than you do. Some are even family.
Why do you have to be such a tool?
> How many of those ops have you met that know what "USB dongle" means?
Most of them. The ones that didn't yet will learn. They update their
Megatouchs themselves, and this is easier.
No, every op won't update it. But for most places, the thing is pretty
good. Most serious players know their ops and can annoy them for updates
if they want, and many will.
This software isn't bad. I like it so far. I think it will be a lot
better for the very serious player, but not so much that early revs will
cause people to *not* drop quarters.