My conversation with Gary Stern about Batman code etc. - Long.
ChrisH
I had a long phone conversation with Gary and Joe Blackwell
yesterday. I thought this deserved it's own topic so it didn't get
lost in the other thread. First of all, let me start by saying that I
respect both Gary and Joe and I thought it was incredible of them to
take an hour out of their schedule to seek me out and call me like
they did. I will not bash them here but I will be honest about the
conversation.
I would not have posted this on my own but Derek has kind of
opened the door. Nothing that we spoke about was said to be a secret,
nor do I consider myself any kind of insider deserving of knowing a
secret, so I assume the conversation was open for further discussion
among my friends and fellow pinball enthusiasts. You are all my
friends.
The conversation was about the state of current code on several
games, the pinball market of today, the direction that pinball sales
are headed, and the philosophy of pleasing the largest pinball
demographic. The most important thing on my mind was the code
situation. As a collector and player of games, I consider myself an
average or better player when compared to people who play pinball
seriously and a great player compared to people who play a game or two
in a bar now and then. So, I have a reasonable chance of seeing most
if not all of what a game has to offer and I like a deep, challenging
ruleset.
According to Gary, aside from the code for the shaker motor,
Batman is finished at 2.0. He said everything in the game works and
the designers love it as it is. He said that Gomez thinks it is his
best game design and Lyman is happy with the code as is. We quickly
talked about Lyman's ability as a player and I said I couldn't believe
that Lyman thought it was finished being the quality player that he
is. I mentioned the skill shot not working, the mystery being
nothing, and the other obvious issues we have all discussed here.
Gary said that the only change in code from this point would be bug
fixing and that no more resources would be spent on adding code.
Gary talked about the fact that their market is mostly Europe and
the casual player. POTC was a big seller because of the ship and that
they need to spend the money on a toy that has mechanical action and
not on deep code that only good players will enjoy. I threw out TSPP
and LOTR as examples of games that covered all bases and sold through
many runs but that was attributed to license splendor. We did discuss
Family Guy and all agreed that it was a great game and a perfect
example of a fully realized pinball experience, but that didn't change
the fact in managements eyes that the game needs to be made for the
occasional $.50 quarter dropper on location and not the hardcore
player.
Gary truly, and unfortunately blindly, believes that pinball's
existence is soley in the hands of operators. He told me that, though
it is great I own 6 Sterns I bought NIB, I should be playing on
location and supporting the ops. I told him I do seek out and play on
location whenever I can and that I make a point of telling bar and
resteraunt owners that I frequent there business for food and drinks
because they have pinball. I also told him that a local place has an
IJ4 but that the oversimple ruleset keeps me from playing the game and
that a deeper ruleset would put a player like myself at the game for
an evening instead of a simple ruleset getting someone to play a game
or 2 on a lark. I told him that the league Derek and I founded has
bought over 20 NIB games in the last 2 1/2 years and that has to be at
a level of a good operator, but somehow that seemed to not make a dent
in his thinking. He said that if we put quarters in on location we
might cause an op to buy 3 or 4 games next year to grow his business.
My league bought 4 Batmans now!
There was a lot of discussion about licenses and dealing
with them which I won't go into because we all get it and that is the
nature of the beast. I guess from my point of view, if you want to
make a product that is sold based on the work or image pre-created by
another so that you can ride on their coat tales, then you should have
a structure in place that allows you to deal with all of the ins and
outs of that kind of venture. Complaining about the problems you run
into when dealing with the various licensors and then creating an
inferior product because you didn't get the voice quotes or they
aren't releasing clips, approval delays etc. seems like bad front
office dealing. Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to know what is
involved and I realize that it is a complicated process but when your
business is completely wrapped up in licensing it seems that by now
you should have it down to a science.
Gary used POTC as the new model, where simple rules and a cool
toy are the future because sales were strong. Thus IJ4. He would not
consider that deep code or even semi-deep code could also be valid as
in the case of LOTR or TSPP. Those titles were considered over-
cooked, where money was spend on sound and effects that were rarely
seen. Actually it is the stuff I haven't seen on those games that
makes me come back for more because it is in there somewhere for me to
aspire to achieve. How many of us keep playing a game that gives up
its cherry on the first date.
There was a lot said but these are the main points. I do
understand where they are coming from with the rising cost of copper,
fuel, materials etc, but code seems to be the best thing they can
bring. The staff is getting paid, use them. Lyman and the boys
doubled the code in a weekend. Put them on for another week and make
a great game that satisfies more of your customer base instead of
alienating a large segment, is the way I look at it.
Gary said he doesn't read RGP. In many respects I think he looks
at us as complainers. It is a shame. How many businesses can say
they have a microcosm of their most informed customer base available
to them in real time to use as a gage, a forum, gather input, see
impact, etc. Instead of using this forum to improve product and
expand thinking it is disregarded as an abomination.
Unfortunately, it looks like Gary is determined to lead the
company into the abyss under a banner of keeping the company alive.
There was talk of redemtion games, which smacked to me of the WMS slot
division, but it was the strange view of what finished really is that
keeps ringing in my head - everything works...the crane swings, the
bridge tips, the Joker locks balls and spins = done. At one point
Gary expressed a view that when summed up in my mind was akin to
"since we are the only game in town you should learn to
I threw in a lot of personal views in here and I hope that it
didn't taint the viewpoint of the conversation I had. It was truly a
pleasure to speak to them both and, for me, was at least an attempt on
the part of Stern to address the issues we are all so upset about.
The sad part is, the views of the company are not necessarily the
views of the players and, I have to say it, isn't it all really about
the players. An expensive toy whether played in an arcade or your
basement, should be made with the player in mind. Stern has not only
forgotten that, they have made a conscious decision to look the
player in the eye and say this game is no longer made for you but for
the passerby who might drop in a few coins...maybe. At least that is
my take and it is getting more acidic all the time.
I told Gary and Joe I hope they find a way to keep making games
for years but I also hope they find a way to make the games playable.
As it stands, playability isn't their main concern. Their main
concern is does the crane swing, does the ark open, does the ship
sink. I hope the next ship they sink isn't pinball.
Chris
pinballzmylife
They are DONE!!! I give them no longer than a year from now, and they
will be SUNK!!! What are they thinking!!!
ldnayman
Will it have a cool transforming toy?
WHo is doing the software?
Are there any pics? When will I see some pics
GODDAMMIT WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE PICS?!
Those Chicago pinball mafia douchebags are asleep at the switch.
WHAT DID GARY SAY ABOUT TRANSFORMERS?!?!?!
On Aug 12, 2:09�pm, ChrisH <chaz...@ptdprolog.net> wrote:
> � � �I am the friend that Derek is talking about in the other thread.
LJ MacLean
Guess I owe azpinlawyer a dollar... :(
"ChrisH" <cha...@ptdprolog.net> wrote in message
news:5723e50f-b5e4-44d9...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
azpinlawyer
Hey, Gary: Liberace called. He wants his eyeglasses back.
ChrisH
as I stop and start other things. I didn't finish one sentence that
was basically about Gary's view being that because they are the only
game in town we should learn to accept that they carry the pinball
torch. I took that to mean that a large backlash over their current
practices would be bad for them and us but that would require
admitting that we matter while at the same time telling us we don't
make a dent. So I'm not sure where that was going. I actually
listened more than spoke and tried to understand things from their
point of view. It seemed the respectful thing to do.
Chris
Old School Al
that surprising given Gary has been saying this all along.
Did you happen to broach the subject of the code guys ability to
revisit/update the code on their own time if they wanted too? I can't
believe guys like Keith and Lyman would leave these games the way they
are unless their hands are tied.
ldnayman
I think ordering all of RGP to start harassing the tech people over at
1800kickers with obnoxious whines about the Batman code is the most
respectful thing to do.
If that doesn't win their respect, what will?
I'd also suggest they just give up on this clusterfuck and put all
their energy and resources into...TRANSFORMER! Which (altogether) will
be the GREATEST GAME EVER!!!
JKirby
consumer?? This isn't a blender we're talking about. Its an
entertainment device built for people who are enjoying a brew and a
snack in some tavern.
This isn't a vehicle or something else that could in some ways be
argued as necessary for everyday living, it is something for your
enjoyment.
If you don't enjoy it, you don't have to buy it.
I love how everyone complains despite the fact that Stern takes the
time to even take this call. If this has happened with WMS they would
have told you where you could put your phone, and I'll give you a
hint, its not your ear.
Stern's responsibility is to operators, plain and simple.
The amount of people here who actually have any real concept about the
coin-op industry is well below 1% of readers and posters.
Joe
goatdan
> Gary said he doesn't read RGP. In many respects I think he looks
> at us as complainers. It is a shame. How many businesses can say
> they have a microcosm of their most informed customer base available
> to them in real time to use as a gage, a forum, gather input, see
> impact, etc. Instead of using this forum to improve product and
> expand thinking it is disregarded as an abomination.
While I understand the rest of what you said and I agree with most of
it, I have to say that I sort of take Gary's side here. RGP isn't the
most informed customer base for pinball. A pinball machine's success
is determined by its coin box take. Period. I worked at an arcade
that had five games, and the game that was the best wasn't the one
that the owner felt was the best 'player', it was the one that had the
best coin box pull week over week. As long as pinball machines come
with coin acceptors in the doors, the operator will be the final
customer, and we will just be players. If Gary starts making models
without coin doors, I would expect him to open up more to this group's
opinions.
As for him seeing the group as a bunch of whiners, if we take a step
back and we look at it from his perspective, his company has games
that are released, and people on here who aren't operators complain
about them and say that they aren't good enough or whatever.
Operators are purchasing the same amount or more games because they
are earning really well for them. This group says that the games
break a lot more and are so much cheaper than B/W games. Operators
say that they work on location much better and need less service than
B/W games ever did.
Gary really isn't building games for us as collectors. He is building
games for operators, and operators think he's doing a great job. The
fact that people sit around here and complain like they do isn't doing
anything unless we pick up the phone and explain it to them from a
*business* standpoint. You can't argue that Batman isn't a good game
because you don't think the rules are deep enough if operators keep
buying them and reporting good earnings.
A person can (and probably should) argue that the reason that these
games need to have finished software in them is because it affects the
home buyer's market, which is important to operators for purchasing
new games. If BDK doesn't get the little issues fixed that some
people have pointed out, it will affect the resale value of this
machine. So, in a few years the operator has a choice of selling the
game for $1500 and purchasing a new game or selling the game for $3000
and purchasing a new game. The $3000 sale to the operator makes Stern
more money. The $1500 one doesn't. A big part of the sales of LOTR
and TSPP in my opinion came from the fact that operators could get
huge ROI on them before the run was even finished. With the current
set of games, that may or may not occur.
If people can convince Gary that unfinished code will hurt the
operators which will hurt him, then he'll listen. But if the
operators aren't reporting any problems with it, it isn't such a big
deal. If the operators like the games and they perform well, Gary may
lose out on 100 sales to home users, but he could gain 1000+ to
operators.
From the arguments running around on here, as much as some people may
hate it, he's right.
And I don't really want to argue against him, since I like the more
simple B/W style rules that the games are getting now anyway. I don't
mind if the game gives me everything in it on my first few plays, I
play to better my score, and games with the depth of LOTR and TSPP are
just too much to me. IJ4 and POTC even are much more up my alley...
mnpinball
Today is Black Tuesday.
Captain Neo
It's a shame. Gary does need to realize that the home market is where
is customer base is at. He thinks 10% of what's bought from
distributers is home collectors. In actuallity, it's more like
40-50%. Pinball has been dying on location, and getting less and less
all the time. Locations that used to have pins on locations a couple
of years ago, do not anymore. It shrinks more and more. Deep code is
what let games like LOTR get 4 or 5 runs. It's definately not the
toys. Playfield wise, it's bland as hell. POTC maybe sold well,
but staying power in collections, is what determines if there is
future runs to be sold or not. If the game has shallow rules, people
will sell it off quickly. Which in return, means the same game, goes
from collector to collector. Letting everyone get sick of it,
without having to buy another one. LOTR doesn't exchange hands as
often, as a result, more people had to buy from releases, or stuff
pulled off route.
Also, look at it from an ops perspective. If he knows he can route a
game for a couple of years, and it holds it's value. he can sell it
for $2500ish or more and recoup his investment. But if it lacks
software, it isn't desireable by collectors. Hence, that same op,
might be lucky to get $1500 or so for that title. If he can't resell
his routed games, for a decent amount, he might be hesitant to buy
anymore in the future.
ChrisH
Actually, that was touched on slightly in another way. When
discussing LOTR and TSPP as far as how complete the code was Joe
mentioned that back then the guys were gung ho and did a lot of things
on their own. It sounded like that isn't happening currently.
Chris
JKirby
You have absolutely nothing to back up that statement. It's just not
true.
Joe
goatdan
> Well that's all well and good, but what did he say about Transformers?
>
> Will it have a cool transforming toy?
>
> WHo is doing the software?
>
> Are there any pics? When will I see some pics
>
> GODDAMMIT WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE PICS?!
>
> Those Chicago pinball mafia douchebags are asleep at the switch.
>
> WHAT DID GARY SAY ABOUT TRANSFORMERS?!?!?!
Thank you for making my day :)
azpinlawyer
JKirby
wouldn't sell it to the majority of homes. The vast, vast majority of
home sales (which still is nowhere near 40-50%) loved the game because
they've been watching the Simpsons for probably over a decade or
they're huge fans of the LOTR movies and books.
Captain Neo
Talk to your distributer you buy games from and talk numbers with
him. I'd bet all the others have similar numbers to the ones i've
talked to.
OldTimer
"ChrisH" <cha...@ptdprolog.net> wrote in message
news:5723e50f-b5e4-44d9...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> I had a long phone conversation with Gary and Joe Blackwell
> yesterday. I thought this deserved it's own topic so it didn't get
> lost in the other thread. First of all, let me start by saying that I
> respect both Gary and Joe and I thought it was incredible of them to
> take an hour out of their schedule to seek me out and call me like
> they did. I will not bash them here but I will be honest about the
> conversation.
Interesting. Well if true it is certainly his ship to run and he should know
what aspects will help keep the doors open.
If most of you, like myself, have been playing and collecting since the
90's then maybe we were fortunate enough to there for it's "heyday"... at
least as far as complex rule goes.
I for one have always been amazed that they ever rose to such complexity...
considering the machine was originally just for giving a 10 minute thrill
for
a couple of quarters.
LOTR, TSPP have held their own nicely next to all my Wms games so I
will always be thankful to G Stern for at least that.
>
seymour-shabow
I still want to know where it's written that pinball has to be
deep...... shallow has its attractions too. in that aspect, most of
Stern's games are complete..... the stuff 'works'. I probably would not
have ever gotten into pinball if the thrill of just mindlessly bashing
stuff around wasn't there.
For instance, what if there was a mode where you had to make 3 shots in
X amount of time or the game was over? I wouldn't want to play it.
Deep is ok but it's not the only thing.
If the game isn't fun to shoot there's no point in having depth in it.
Pinball shouldn't be about telling/playing a "story".
It is about operators' preferences too - if the operators ever go away
it doesn't matter how many home users buy/are willing to buy pinballs,
because stern would not survive.
-scott CARGPB#29
Old School Al
OK, that confirms what I have been hearing that the code guys aren't
really into it. Knowing that those guys love pinball though I guess
that tells me all I need to know about where Stern is headed and what
is going on over there...sad.
the_ball...@hotmail.com
Thanx for your post.
If I could get Gary Stern to confirm in writing he will keep on
producing the crappy games he has done lately I might as well start my
own pinball company.
A few comments:
"Gary talked about the fact that their market is mostly Europe and the
casual player."
Then why do they pick themes nobody in Europe cares about? FG was
completely unknown in Europe, WoF, WPT, Sopranos, Elvis, Ripleys, T3,
RCT: all games no european operater got excited about. All the
licenses of US blockbuster movies don't make sense either as while
they do well in Europe, grown up Europeans consider those movies
nothing but a series of special FX with a thin storyline. So what
makes you think they might want to play a pinball of such theme? The
teenagers maybe? Who are you kidding?
If Gary rather sees you guys drop a few quarters on location than buy
a game: please do. Clearly the man can't calculate. Didn't he mention
earlier half of the sales in US go to home users? So let's asume that
is 20% of the total number of games (40% being the number of total US
games). Please play on location and let's see how many ops will buy an
extra game. I will tell you know Stern sales will drop massively.
Also, Gary clearly does not understand why people play games again. If
the game was fun the first time, or you did not achieve the ultimate
goal, you come back. Yet since the Sega times his games were boring,
repetitive and no fun at all. So why would people drop another quarter
in them?
"He would not consider that deep code or even semi-deep code could
also be valid as in the case of LOTR or TSPP. Those titles were
considered over-cooked, where money was spend on sound and effects
that were rarely
seen."
Well, I still haven't seen them. Both LOTR and TSPP sound like crap.
Nothing can change that due to the hardware they run on and the amount
of samples they put in the games which resulted in a low sample
frequency. So while trying to make the games better, they actually got
worse.
So it is crystal clear to me: Gary Stern is an old man with ancient
beliefs who lost reality out of sight. Too bad he heads the only
pinball company around. But this should open doors. There is a market
for pinballgames. Just not the games Stern is producing. So if there
is anyone outthere who thinks about getting in the business, let me
know and I'll jump on board. let's get some new real pinballgames out
there.
Joe
Joe
MattyK.
machines out and less Big Buck Hunter and Golden Tee. My days of
dropping $3 bucks in Golden Tee are over. Also, how about shopping
some of the machines you do put out there. Every now and then I will
luck out an find a machine in Phoenix and when I go to play it...it is
filthy and has major issues.
mr tobias
to have something tangible rather than speculation all the time.
It seems as though Gary Sternnow views pinball machines as little
more than novelty items. I understand to a degree where he is coming
from with operators being his priority, but this is not the ninety
eighties, or even nineties, and many ops have got out of pinball,
especially in Europe, and it'll be difficult to turn the clock back
with this approach. Far from welcoming collectors buying machines, I
get the impression Stern feel it is harming operators. It's no wonder
people buy their own machines as they often wouldn't find them
otherwise, and if they did they might well be badly maintained (or
running early code). Lack of machines out on site was a big driver
when I first started buying my own.
A large portion of today's kids are sophisticated and want something
deeper after the initial eye candy has worn off, yet it seems as
though Gary has abandoned any notion of attracting them to pinball
with his current thinking. Right now it looks as though we can pretty
much kiss the deeper rulesets goodbye, so many thanks to Keith and co.
for doing such a great job on TSPP, LOTR and more recently FGY.
There's much to ponder here, but I don't see pinball evolving with
this current thinking, and if something doesn't evolve, we all know
what that often leads to. I personally believe the approach taken with
LOTR etc. was the way forward: cater for the casual player and the
more sophisticated customer. The latter group may make up only 10% of
the player base, but in my experience they drop 50% of the coins in a
machine.
seymour-shabow
That ain't a new problem - trade mags in the 70s were saying the same
thing about that! Operators tend to be very short-sighted people in
that they would rather not clean the game/put $1 into it, to make $10
later. They're happy getting $2 out of it, dirty.
-scott CARGPB#29
mnpinball
Pinball doesn't have to be deep, I own IJ4 and love it for what it is.
Nothings not there that makes it not complete. Everything lights and
works and there is a final mode.
I also own Batman and if it's supposed to have what not in there, then
there is a problem. Simple.
Just a fact that Batman is a deeper game. But that's how the game was
designed to begin with !
skbrothers
Gary has his "New" business model and is determined to let it play out
in the free market.
Within a year he will see if the "Home Market" is as unimportant to
his (and his distributors ie: Jack) bottom line as he thinks it is.
He has tried to market to both the operator AND the collector and it's
apparently not working.
As a businessman if "Zig" isn't working you have to "Zag".
Gary has chosen to ZAG....
...I hope (for the perserverance of pinball) he is right.
I fear (in my gut) that he is not....(I hope to be proven wrong)
Sad news indeed.....
:-(
Steve
gpsdrew
>
> Deep is ok but it's not the only thing.
>
> If the game isn't fun to shoot there's no point in having depth in it.
>
I agree Scott,
For me and many other average palyers its about the fun of playing,
and also the fun of watching friends and family play who aren't
pinheads.
My favorite game of all time is BK, it's not deep, shoot the targets,
get magna-saves and play multiball. Its a Blast and I don't get tired
of it. Some pinheads may say it's boring but to me it's pure fun.
It's the same reason I would like to add POTC someday... alot of
people bash it, but I have played it and had a blast with it's toys,
and most of all I think others who frequent my game room would too...
azpinlawyer
I can't even root for Stern's survival. My ass hurts too much.
ChrisH
I definately agree Scott. I like SS, HSII, BSD and all are shallow
rulesets that are fun and challenging. But a mystery that is no
mystery, unbalanced mode scoring, skill shots that are lit for nothing
screams unfinished on a very basic level. The problem is Stern lifted
our expectations by producing deep, lasting games that seemed to be
the new direction in pinball and many of us went for it. Now, they've
changed direction in a way that even their own employees don't know
about because they are still designing layouts with inserts that hold
promises management doesn't intent to keep.
Chris
Steve
Thanks for posting this. Really gives a good insight into Stern.
Although a bit of a dissapointment in some areas, not a suprise.
Gary and company are in the business of making money. They
just happen to do this by making pinball machines. Traditionally
machines have been made to satisfy ops, and thats still their
view.
The final line in your post sums it up perfectly.
Steve
azpinlawyer
This is thievery. I paid for BDK after seeing a pf pic with inserts
that are not used.. I'm getting more angry as I sit here.
ChrisH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Al,
I didn't intend to portray that feeling exactly. I don't know why it
isn't happening. There could be many factors. Maybe they were
working extra hours and getting paid and now they aren't or any number
of things. Their hands might be tied. Joe just mentioned that it
wasn't like that now and I left it at that because there could be
personal things involved there. All I got was that the mad code
writing wasn't happening now. But hey, Keith came out with some nice
late code on WPT so who knows.
Chris
Lloyd Olson
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2cd79e29-9478-4f02...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> Today is Black Tuesday.
>
Sam
Those could be bugs that they may address. You probably won't see new
features that didn't exist before.
Sam
Old School Al
http://www.seattlegasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
You can see that gas prices spiked in the first half of '07. What game
was released then? SM now the prices corrected for awhile and SM got
99% done, ok. Then the prices started up again and what happened? Code
got shoddy and short shrifted. Obviously what's happening is the code
guys are running out of gas on their way into work due to the high
prices and thus can't get these games finished. Congress needs to step
and address this situation asap. A pinball manufacturing stimulus
check is in order post haste! Now get back from vacation and address
this you slackers in congress!
pinballzmylife
Stern should hire volunteer employees, to cut down on costs.. I am
sure they could run the place with volunteer work.. Heck, we have fire
departments here in florida that are all volunteer ran.. I know I
would do it!!
Lloyd Olson
"azpinlawyer" <greg...@mail2lawyer.com> wrote in message
news:69e3be4c-4e30-4351...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
Jonny_eh
game doesn't have the features on the features card, then no, it's not
complete.
This reminds me of movie directors of comic book movies who
drastically digress from the comic books. They almost never do well
(Hulk, Punisher). Then lo and behold, you get a director like Sam
Raimi or Christopher Nolan that have a respect for the hardcore fans,
and look what happens!
All I know is that here in Ottawa, a city of over 1 million people,
the only place that you can play new Sterns are in people's basements.
To ignore home buyers is business suicide. It wouldn't be hard to
appeal to both home buyers and operators.
Gott Lieb?
depth of your conversation with GS, it sounds like they are going "back
to basics" like when Stern Pinball, Inc. was first "founded". Look at
games such as Striker Extreme, Sharkey's Shootout, and High Roller
Casino. When SPI manufactured these games, they were the only game in
town then too. Did they sell these titles even though they weren't
overly deep? I don't know what the exact production numbers were, but
they stayed in business beyond producing these three games mentioned.
Maybe TSPP and LOTR were just overly done code-wise as the OP mentioned.
From the sounds of it, they were, and it probably won't happen again.
The only difference between SPI's business model in 2000-2001 and now
is that they are going after more recognizable licenses, and have a
bigger arsenal of game designers to choose from.
Jim
chuck
"Gary said that the only change in code from this point would be bug
fixing and that no more resources would be spent on adding code. "
So far the only complaints I have heard sound like bug fixes.
"I mentioned the skill shot not working, the mystery being
nothing"
Those are probably bugs.
BDK owners, what is *missing?* And wanting more sound calls or
animations arent necessarily "missing" items.
kirb
> fixing and that no more resources would be spent on adding code.
Thank you for taking the time to post a REAL conversation.
Kirb
kirb
> I would totally support the local operators if they put more pinball
> machines out and less Big Buck Hunter and Golden Tee. My days of
> dropping $3 bucks in Golden Tee are over.
You are the last guy I know that ever put $3 in a GT game in the last
2 years. They sit unplayed MUCH more than a pinball machine these
days.
> Every now and then I will
> luck out an find a machine in Phoenix and when I go to play it...it is
> filthy and has major issues.
I usually offer an op my free cleaning service....always declined.
Kirb
bf...@aol.com
be a business man in his non pin life.
We live in a free market and Gary is making money making pinball
machine.
If he is not doing it the best someone will be in the business doing
it better and more profitable.
There are at least 3 markets. 1) Collectors, 2) After Market and 3)
Operators.
Gary has chosen to forcus on Ops as his strategic direction and feels
that is where he can make the most growth and profit.
He is proably correct in his focus for his company.
Bill
kirb
> In the picture you saw, were the inserts lit ?
Do they work in attract or test mode?
Program done!
Kirb
skbrothers
>
> - Show quoted text -
shhh....what's that sound?
Oh, it's just the sound of my HUO LOTR going up in value!
;-)
Steve
marc_b
Scott- Stern's margins are so thin and fragile, that if EITHER the
operator goes away OR the collector stops buying- it could be their
end. It doesn't sound like Gary, the "brilliant" businessman
understands that.
Marc
Jonny_eh
There's too much of a barrier of entry for someone else to enter the
market. Stern really is our last hope, unless... someone buys him out
and respects the design choices of designers and programmers like
Gomez and Lyman and listens to the pinball community.
Move studios have started to recently bend over backwards to please
their fans, and it's paid back hugely in return. Stern should do the
same.
tktlwyr
it. IF!
If I liked the working game on location that I put quarters in, I'd
buy it.
I don't think a ruleset needs to be super deep to be fun, but if it's
on the playfield and has a switch, it should light up and it should
work. 500,000 points is not a mystery, it's 500,000 points and should
be labeled, "Award 500,000 points when lit!".
Stern seems to be concerned with the operators who basically ignore
their games' condition which is why we don't put quarters in, which is
why they ignore their machines. It's a death spiral, at least in the
U.S. (Stern claims 60% of his business is from Western Europe).
Stern should be listening to their distributors. That will tell them
who is buying NIB Stern games. If home collectors don't buy games and
operators buy less because the games don't produce, the next hit is to
the distributors before it impacts Stern directly.
I would have bought a NIB BDK but for this bullshit. I happily ended
up with an HUO Spider-Man instead. I'm still waiting to find a BDK on
location and I am looking forward to picking up a cheap HUO BDK in the
future.
Thanks, Gary!
hAbO
If this is true...Wow! I'm completely shocked by the companies
attitude and feel a little unapreciated as a consumer/collector. It's
not a good sign. Not to dis the Ops but I dont think it was "soley"
their hands that demanded several runs of LOTR and TSPP to be done.
The sound bytes music and FX are a large part of why I picked up FGY
and LOTR. I probably would have put down money on a Spiderman or SMB
but hearing there is missing code after a year kept me from doing so.
That was a determining factor for me. Oh, well... I guess they know
what they are doing.
Mike
www.HabosArcade.com
www.Myspace.com/Big_Bang_Bar
www.FunhouseAmusements.com
BBB #17
<snip>
Gary truly, and unfortunately blindly, believes that pinball's
existence is soley in the hands of operators.
Gary used POTC as the new model, where simple rules and a cool
toy are the future because sales were strong. Thus IJ4. He would not
consider that deep code or even semi-deep code could also be valid as
in the case of LOTR or TSPP. Those titles were considered over-
cooked, where money was spend on sound and effects that were rarely
seen. Actually it is the stuff I haven't seen on those games that
makes me come back for more because it is in there somewhere for me to
aspire to achieve. How many of us keep playing a game that gives up
its cherry on the first date.
<snip>
Steven
POTC. True: POTC sold well, but as far as I know, POTC is not that
deep, but it's fun to play and is complete. BDK isn't if not all
targets, inserts, mystery, etc. are being used. I hope, as someone
else said, that that will be part of the 'bug fixing'!
I like POTC, even if it's not that deep. But what I read here, BDK is
nowhere near as finished as POTC. Either that, or it's not as bad as I
think it is, reading all comments here.
And IJ4 is more repetitive then POTC,right? So comparing a well sold
pinball like POTC to BDK and IJ4 is a bit strange.
I hope they'll see the mistake (in my opinion) in time and change
course.....Maybe games don't need to be that deep, but they really
need to feel finished. I really like BSD. It's not that deep, but it
can be hard to play, and it really feels complete and has variation
i.e. in what way you score the different jackpots, multiple jackpots
in the different multiball-modes. If it wouldn't have that varriation
and hadn't been complete, then it wouldn't be a game for home-owners
and I'm affraid that's where Stern is heading when I read all these
posts here.
I can't believe sales won't be hurt by Gary's policy. Home sales will
decrease.... operator might not be as willing too, given the lower
resale-value. Unless a lot more players will be attracted by these new
machines, but I doubt it.
Red West
place to handle the difficult software tasks.
At this point, updating or changing specific features/rules of a game
should be simple.
These type changes should be the cheapest part of the entire machine.
milt
> Well that's all well and good, but what did he say about Transformers?
>
> Will it have a cool transforming toy?
>
> WHo is doing the software?
>
> Are there any pics? When will I see some pics
>
> GODDAMMIT WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE PICS?!
>
> Those Chicago pinball mafia douchebags are asleep at the switch.
>
> WHAT DID GARY SAY ABOUT TRANSFORMERS?!?!?!
>
Way to channel Derek there.
Now stop, you're scaring me.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
CornCob
> Sorry if some of this is all over the place. I am writing from work
> as I stop and start other things. I didn't finish one sentence that
> was basically about Gary's view being that because they are the only
> game in town we should learn to accept that they carry the pinball
> torch. I took that to mean that a large backlash over their current
> practices would be bad for them and us but that would require
> admitting that we matter while at the same time telling us we don't
> make a dent. So I'm not sure where that was going. I actually
> listened more than spoke and tried to understand things from their
> point of view. It seemed the respectful thing to do.
>
I have never accepted that overseas markets are larger than the USA -
you've only got to look at the number of distributors in the USA
compared to the rest of the world. Those French and German
distributors must be making serious $$ if one or two can sell more
then the USA combined.
Our products (euroland) are more expensive then the American versions
for a number of reasons but you have to ask yourself why make a
slightly cheaper version for the USA if they arn't going to sell as
many anyway, other companies simply get there 1 product UL approved
rather than reinvest time into a 2nd version of every product (title).
IJ4 might have sold well with simple rules but to just run off and say
in future all titles will be for the drunk dude at the bar who doesn't
care what he's flipping isn't a model thats been tested. I wager a
proportion of those sales were made on the basis that the game would
be on par with previous titles. If thats the case they'll not see
those sales continue...
In the past they have touted the resale value for home sales for there
games as a way to pay back the operator - well thats out the window
with this model.
Kind of understand why PLD might have really said bye, bye if thats
even true.
Ping
Lloyd Olson
There'd be some changes. A few people go bye bye. A few people I'd try and
get on board.
And my basic idea of regular pinball body, no translite, that would be a big
LCD. Sell advertising on it to help pay for things. On board cell phone so
it could update itself.
Once you get pinball back out there in mass, then we'd have some real money
to drag pinball kicking and screaming into the next century.
Be able to compete live at home and on location.
It's all there. It just needs to happen. LTG :)
"Jonny_eh" <bizar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa824e56-0c5e-4c5f...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
Pinballed
> toy are the future because sales were strong. Thus IJ4. He would not
> consider that deep code or even semi-deep code could also be valid as
> in the case of LOTR or TSPP. Those titles were considered over-
> cooked, where money was spend on sound and effects that were rarely
> seen. Actually it is the stuff I haven't seen on those games that
> makes me come back for more because it is in there somewhere for me to
> aspire to achieve. How many of us keep playing a game that gives up
> its cherry on the first date.
Well, business is business. And the head cheese better know where his
bread is buttered. mmmm, I must be getting hungry...nevertheless...I
live in Toronto with a population of somewhere around 3 million
people, but actually, with the surrounding cities of Mississauga and
Oakville, Whitby Oshawa etc...theres around 5 million plus here. How
many acrades do we have? Ha...One downtown...with like 3 pins in
there. There used to be FIVE that I can remember all along Yonge St.
Theres also a couple of Playdiums on the outskirts but thats more of a
mini 'fair' that you go to with your kids once in a blue moon.The only
other place I get at a pinball machine outside of the odd sadly
maintained machine at a bar is at the airport. Heck, the most machines
we have for the general public to get at are places that want to ship
you out of town! Oh, and that one last lonely arcade we have in the
city...well, it's closing. And guess what? This area is a huge pinball
area. There's games trading all over the place around here and its
not hard to find whatever title you want.Its mostly home users.
Operators...not so much.
Europe eh?...why does that seem hard to believe?
The problem is and yes its been stated many many times is that theres
only ONE company making these things. And I chuckle when reading those
posts when all people can come back with is...well why dont YOU start
your own pinball company? And then it all gets very silly and immature
from that point on.
Lets face it. For now, we're stuck with them. Like it or not.
AND...consider ourselves lucky that we even still have THAT. Maybe,
one day someone with enough desire and money to burn will start up
their own company and we can have some actual competition again
between pinball companies. Wow, wouldnt that rule? Then Gary just may
have to let go the reigns to someone younger with their finger on the
pulse. Hey, it happened to lots of very great and successful
businessmen. Ford and Howard Hughes come to mind...towards their later
years in the biz...they just lost touch with people.
There must be alot of secret operators out there doing very well.
Maybe they're 'down under' where the machines cost twice the price.
But they're certainly not around here.
Stan
w-mor...@ti.com
> is customer base is at. He thinks 10% of what's bought from
> distributers is home collectors. In actuallity, it's more like
> 40-50%. Pinball has been dying on location, and getting less and less
> all the time. Locations that used to have pins on locations a couple
> of years ago, do not anymore. It shrinks more and more. Deep code is
> what let games like LOTR get 4 or 5 runs. It's definately not the
> toys. Playfield wise, it's bland as hell. POTC maybe sold well,
> but staying power in collections, is what determines if there is
> future runs to be sold or not. If the game has shallow rules, people
> will sell it off quickly. Which in return, means the same game, goes
> from collector to collector. Letting everyone get sick of it,
> without having to buy another one. LOTR doesn't exchange hands as
> often, as a result, more people had to buy from releases, or stuff
> pulled off route.
> Also, look at it from an ops perspective. If he knows he can route a
> game for a couple of years, and it holds it's value. he can sell it
> for $2500ish or more and recoup his investment. But if it lacks
> software, it isn't desireable by collectors. Hence, that same op,
> might be lucky to get $1500 or so for that title. If he can't resell
> his routed games, for a decent amount, he might be hesitant to buy
> anymore in the future.
Neo, Where do you get these facts ? I am really surprised you are
putting numbers and opinions out like this.
Bill
John in WI
Spoken like someone that knows nothing about writing software....
miracleman
difference,
DON'T BUY ANYMORE STERNS !
If Stern goes out of business, then you're right!
If Stern keeps on cranking them out, you're wrong!
Put your money where your mouth is, OUT of Stern's pocket.
...the rest of those here that want to will keep buying them.
w-mor...@ti.com
> > Sorry if some of this is all over the place. I am writing from work
> > as I stop and start other things. I didn't finish one sentence that
> > was basically about Gary's view being that because they are the only
> > game in town we should learn to accept that they carry the pinball
> > torch. I took that to mean that a large backlash over their current
> > practices would be bad for them and us but that would require
> > admitting that we matter while at the same time telling us we don't
> > make a dent. So I'm not sure where that was going. I actually
> > listened more than spoke and tried to understand things from their
> > point of view. It seemed the respectful thing to do.
>
> deep...... shallow has its attractions too. in that aspect, most of
> Stern's games are complete..... the stuff 'works'. I probably would not
> have ever gotten into pinball if the thrill of just mindlessly bashing
> stuff around wasn't there.
>
> For instance, what if there was a mode where you had to make 3 shots in
> X amount of time or the game was over? I wouldn't want to play it.
>
> Deep is ok but it's not the only thing.
>
> If the game isn't fun to shoot there's no point in having depth in it.
>
> Pinball shouldn't be about telling/playing a "story".
>
> It is about operators' preferences too - if the operators ever go away
> it doesn't matter how many home users buy/are willing to buy pinballs,
> because stern would not survive.
>
> -scott CARGPB#29
You have to have a "SUPER DEEP FRICKIN" JACKPOT, SUPER AWESOME, WOW I
HIT THE JACKPOT, SUPER DUPER QUAD DUPER FRICKIN LARGE INSAVE JACKPOT,
JACKPOT JACKPOT< SUPER FRICKIN, INSANE RAMP SUPER RAMP HAIRRAISIN' A&&
KICKIN" SUPER DUPER ALI UOOPER JACKPOT. this has to be imbedded so
deep in the software that in 1 or 2 months I get to See it. IF I
DON:'T ;;;;;OH MY GOD....
NOW come one. Also you have to have lots of toys, SUPER TOYS, TOYS
THAT WIGGLE, TOYS that MOVE. Toys I can buy from my friends for
hundreds of dollars on ebay but they sell at the toy store for 5
bucks. But they must move and work and when they don't, I am going
to bash your head in with a bat because that does not work.
And then when I see a light on the playfield not working after I have
had the ball in play for 45 minutes. Then I am totally going to lose
it, get on RGP and complain for the rest of the month.
If the entertainment is not right on the game then I will consider
PINBALL DONE.
djcha...@hotmail.com
news shows on Stern (right when Indy was on the line) didn't Stern
claim that 60% of the games now went to the home market?
That number seemed high to me, but if it was correct, then this is the
equivalent to business suicide... Unless he plans on producing cheaper
games that operators love, he's done.
I'm sad to see and hear this... I love my Spiderman pin, but it will
be the last new game that comes home if this is all correct and true.
goatdan
> Great Thred and much to digest. I really liked Dan's post and he must
> be a business man in his non pin life.
Wow, that may be the nicest thing that has been said to me on RGP.
I'm something like a business man in real life, and I run a web store
and convention "for fun" so, um... yeah.
And I'll say it again, although I think most people don't want to
believe it -- the customer is and will always be the operators as long
as games are on location and they have a coin door. The home market
*can not* support the entire company of Stern by itself, or we would
see a model without a coin door for a little cheaper.
Operators are reporting good earnings. Pins around here at least are
showing up in more places, while there are less and less vids on
location (for all of you saying there are more, I don't know what they
are, as there are practically no new vids and most of the old ones
aren't earning). Stern's customers are happy.
Pinball players that got spoiled by games like TSPP and LOTR that were
incredibly deep are feeling that these new shallower games aren't
'good enough'. The rules on IJ4 and SM (of the games most cited as
'horrible') are extremely similar to B/W games in the way of depth.
So is POTC. And they are earning more.
Why aren't we happy with this?
Red West
Well, if Stern has not already implemented something high level to
easily handle rule additions or changes, no wonder they are having
trouble.
Joepa
games are cheap for them when paying in Euros. What happens when then
dollar strengthens (or the Euro weakens or both)? NIB games are going
to cost a lot more overseas. For example, it takes 2,700 Euros today
to buy U.S. $4,000, roughly the cost of a NIB game. 5 years ago, it
cost about 5,000 Euros to buy U.S. $4,000.
If you could buy a NIB game today for around half of what it cost 5
years ago, wouldn't you buy more games now? What happens when the
price goes (way) up again???
I can't believe that for the amount of money Stern invests in
producing a game, that they wouldn't spend the extra 1% (likely much,
much less) in development cost to 'finish' the code and add depth.
This is not a logical business move - alienating part of your customer
base (no matter how small) when it could be avoided for peanuts.
Home buyers play a role, IMO, in keeping pinball alive. How many
people do you 're-introduce' to pinball every month when they visit?
How many of them get the bug and start buying games and playing on
location? Quite a few from my perspective. Perhaps this is just a
knee-jerk reaction to growing pressure about code and Mr. Stern and
company will re-think this decision.
Coin-Op Cauldron (Clive)
> I didn't finish one sentence that
> was basically about Gary's view being that because they are the only
> game in town we should learn to accept that they carry the pinball
> torch. I took that to mean that a large backlash over their current
> practices would be bad for them and us but that would require
> admitting that we matter while at the same time telling us we don't
> make a dent. So I'm not sure where that was going. I actually
> listened more than spoke and tried to understand things from their
> point of view. It seemed the respectful thing to do.
>
Great post, Chris. Thanks.
My own take...
The sad thing is, this is nothing new from the Stern management. :(
I feel sorry for Stern designers, software and hardware engineers who
have a great deal of passion for their work, are extremely committed but
are limited by the framework they have to design games within: Short
development periods and licensing resistrictions. These guys are doing a
tremendous job with the limited tools they have, so please cut the
coders and designers some slack, people. :)
On the other hand, we have Mr. Stern himself who I still can't fathom:
- No marketing outside of distributers (this is not 1974).
- What is the pinball target demographic (I am still baffled on this one)?
- It would appear that the future direction for their business is "more
of the same".
- Why isn't youth or "new blood" being targeted for the future?
It's not rocket science. A simple advertisement in the current Batman
comic book for the Batman pinball machine could boost sales and
awareness of pinball in general -- why is this not done? Does Stern have
so many customers and be so replete with funds that is can afford to
target a certain market to the obvious exclusion of others? Why is there
no advertising outside of outdated distributer flyer lines? Why does
Stern still use photorealistic artwork when we have been complaining
that we don't like it for the last 12 years or more! ;)
Aside: I understand why these threads get so long and heated -- it's
because people here are passionate about pinball. This *is* a public
forum and people should have the right to express their opinions (as I
have mine), but please, let's keep it civil and constructive. :)
Clive
(Who is still awaiting a Ghostbusters pin! Mr. Lawlor, do you have you
ears on?) ;)
-- The Coin-Op Cauldron --
103 Armistead lane
Easley, SC 29642
(864)238-1707
www.coinopcauldron.com
Bryan Kelly
hours would it take him to improve the code?
Maybe we should take up donations. I'd kick in $100 to the "Lyman
Save the Code" fund.
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
John in WI
nothing. If they're spending more time on this title...the next falls
behind.
Bowen Kerins
Yes, yes, yes! Thank you Dan! This is a terrific comment. What on
earth makes these other games 'horrible'? Every so often, a dot
matrix animation is missing? How terrible!
These games are good, they're plenty deep, they're entertaining, and
they're making money on location. What's not to like?
goatdan
since they have a bunch of buttons, but then say that it is stupid
that the pinball machines are too simple. I talk with lots of people
at the Midwest Gaming Classic, and a lot have told me that they won't
even look at new video games because of how complex they are and how
little they understand them.
Why would those same players that play those complex video games feel
any different about walking up to a pinball machine and having *no*
idea what does what, what scores points, how to start multiball, or
anything else? Pinball is too complex for them.
Nintendo decided that video games were too complex, so they introduced
the Wii console that is easy enough for anyone to play. Lo and
behold, it's revolutionizing the industry and bringing video games
into places that would have never thought about having video games in
them ever before. Nursing home Wii bowling leagues are sprouting up,
my parents are interested in a system for the first time since the
Atari 2600. It's working.
A lot of hardcore gamers are now sitting around complaining about how
'lame' and 'simple' the Wii is, while the Wii outsells the consoles
these games say are the best by leaps and bounds. Nintendo has tapped
an entirely new market, and it has brought about a huge growth in the
industry, and it has been very good for them.
Interestingly enough, Stern Pinball has also decided that the way
forward may be to simplify games and make them straightforward again.
A lot of hardcore pinball players are now sitting around complaining
about how 'lame' and 'simple' these new games are, while these
machines out earn the machines a lot of people have said are the best
by leaps and bounds.
I'm not saying that Stern will get the same reaction and it will
completely revolutionize the industry, it just seems not to be a bad
strategy, and one that I find an interesting parallel in our own world
about...
Sam
Not to mention that all the game designers (while proven) are starting
to age. If Stern had any long term plans, maybe someone unknown and
fresh should be active to build up a reputation. Since the main market
are ops and the casual player, they may not care that the game designer
is some nobody.
Sam
TBK
> Maybe it's the dawn of a new day. LTG :)
>
Or it could be the sun setting on a nice run with a staggering finish!
~Ron R
TBK=The Biggest Kid
"Route-rat extraordinaire!"
PT
Thanks for the comments Chris. I don't doubt any portion of it. What
I do doubt is whether Gary knows his ass from a hole in the ground
when it comes to the true technical "rubber hits the road" side of his
business. He is a businessman from before the computer revolution.
As a player, I doubt he has ever made it to the wizard mode on any of
his machines.
Obviously this has led to poor decision making on Gary's part, but the
point I'm trying to make is this: when that software revision comes
out to add the shaker motor functionality to BDK, I'll bet there are
TONS of other fixes in there too. What Gary doesn't know won't hurt
him.
Lets not get too upset over this until things have played out.
Unfortunately it looks like the days of super deep rule sets are over
though :-(
John
mnpinball
There won't be a future title if the current ones aren't finished.
People won't buy a product if they know it will never be done.
No sales=no company.
I think Gary Stern has looked at WoF as an example of a hard game and
a deep rules game.
Sales were in the tube so why keep making deep games and spend many
man hours on code that many will never even come close to reaching.
Sad to think he thinks that way.
w-mor...@ti.com
I just had an old retail pinball customer who bought a Rocky and
Bullwinkle, T2, Addams Family and Twilight Zone say now they want an
IJ4 and a Batman. Why because they want the theme in there house and
to be quite honest nothing was said about game play. Sorry to say
when I owned a retail store I could not keep LW3's in the store over
many of the Williams non licensed titles. It was just the way it is.
Everyday customers want to play pinball that they can relate too. The
women would go nuts over Mel on the backglass. They never discussed
the rules. NEVER!!!
I will say one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in pinball is
when Don M. coached me through a ball on MM for a 45 minute stint and
something shy of 300 million. Talk about stupid. He then proceeded
to have a 40 minute ball himself. Complex rules yes...Pinball
NO!!!....Everyone at the party was questioning MM ALOT!!!....
Bill
Les Manley
Coincidently enough I think the Wii stinks. I just don't like the
idea of dumbing something down for the masses and never will. I don't
want to play online with an 8 year old or a 68 year old who have no
idea what they are doing. The Wii is only good if you are under 13,
over 40 or drunk IMHO. It is a novelty and novelties wear off, I want
a real game.
Pin_In_Calgary
I do understand that the issue at hand is the concern that people aren't
getting what they paid for, but unless it's written down what's in the
package, I've found it kind of difficult to hold a manufacture to what's
shown in a picture as how things are going to work. I see a lot of people
writting that they won't buy another machine, and we all know how well
things are going for operators, so if an alternative isn't found, then we
may as well write the obituary for Pinball and move on. But I'd like to
think that maybe there are some alternatives that would still help keep a
pinball manufacture going and making what they would feel as reasonable
profits while addressing the concern of games feeling or not being
completed.
I have to admit that I don't know much about new Stern pinball machines,
since I prefer EM and very early SS games, but coming from a
telecommunication/computing industry, I was just wondering why the pinball
community couldn't work with Stern to get them to adopt an opensource
programming model with the appropriate compiler/linker to make the machine
code available that could be downloaded to the f/w? If the pinball industry
is anything like telecommunications/computing, once the basic h/w build is
done, the biggest cost for the machine has got to be the perfecting of the
f/w and any ongoing maintenance of the fw, including keeping it around, i.e.
storage, and someone that understands it in case they have to make a
modification due to some nasty bug.
Going to an opensource programming model would allow Stern to get their
machines running on their own dime with what they feel is "good enough for
the operators" code, but any significant enhancements could then be
programmed by the HUO crowd to get the biggest bang for the HUO buck.
There are already people writing superb emulators to play pinball on
computer, and others that have made fantastic replacement h/w for early SS
games, so why not just use those skills to support the newer machines?
Yes, code could potentially be hacked and your pinball machine could get
infected, same exists for opensource code today and yet people have turned
out some pretty outstanding s/w, I personnaly like MythTV as a PVR. You just
need to ensure your are getting your code from a reputable source and there
are some awesome people on RGP that I'm sure have the skills and are very
trustworthy.
Heck, if Stern wanted to, they could even open a University of Stern(UofS)
and train people to write the code for them similar, without being on Sterns
payroll, to the model used to support the EM and SS games which had great
repair schools in the good old days of pinball. Stern could even then direct
"feature" requests to these UofS grads that could then do the programming
for the HUO world and work with Stern to get the code generally available.
There could be different pricing tiers for the new games depending on the fw
support,
Level 1 - Basic f/w that's available when the game is considered "finished"
+ emergency fixes.
- For those operators that really just want to make money and do as
little maintenance on the machines as possible.
- For the HUO person that wants a specific title but is not competent
enough to do the fw upgrades or ongoing maintenance other than change rubber
and maybe put down a layer of polish.
- For the HUO person that wants to "hack" their system to make all the
"fun stuff" work.
- Level 2 - Basic f/w that available when the game is considered "finished"
+ emergency fixes + quarterly maintenance code.
- Level 3 - Basic f/w that's available when the game is considred "finished"
+ emergency fixes + quarterly maintenance code + additional features which
may come from the opensource world but are "coded" to Stern levels by Stern
programmers and available as a special download.
All levels would allow for fw upgrades. Make Level 1 $500->$750 cheaper than
todays machines, Level 2 at todays prices and Level 3 could be $$$ more
expensive and come with 1/2 yearly updates.
I'd see most of the HUO people that would notice "incomplete" functions
going for Level 1 and then doing their own fw upgrades from opensource
modules received from trustworthy people on RGP.
Well, hope I didn't make to many people want to put posts from me in their
KillFiles since I do need help with my EM and early SS games,
Alfred aka Pin_In_Calgary
<<<<< Flame suit off
"ChrisH" <cha...@ptdprolog.net> wrote in message
news:5723e50f-b5e4-44d9...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> Gary truly, and unfortunately blindly, believes that pinball's
> Gary used POTC as the new model, where simple rules and a cool
> toy are the future because sales were strong. Thus IJ4. He would not
> consider that deep code or even semi-deep code could also be valid as
> in the case of LOTR or TSPP. Those titles were considered over-
> cooked, where money was spend on sound and effects that were rarely
> seen. Actually it is the stuff I haven't seen on those games that
> makes me come back for more because it is in there somewhere for me to
> aspire to achieve. How many of us keep playing a game that gives up
> its cherry on the first date.
Steven
> any different about walking up to a pinball machine and having *no*
> idea what does what, what scores points, how to start multiball, or
> anything else? Pinball is too complex for them.
Sure, new people need to get how to start multiball and get the toys
to work, but that doesn't mean there can't be more in the machine!
Just look at Dr.Who: all of my visitors soon get to understand how to
start multiball, and they'll easily play 5 times or more, just
shooting for just that! Having an 'easy to understand' main-feature
and maybe some 'side'-features, doesn't mean the complete package
can't be deeper! It can be combined!
Rare Hero
> I think Gary Stern has looked at WoF as an example of a hard game and
> a deep rules game.
> Sales were in the tube so why keep making deep games and spend many
> man hours on code that many will never even come close to reaching.
> Sad to think he thinks that way.
Shitty theme + great design = poor sales
Great theme + shitty design = good sales
Great theme + great design = great sales (longevity, word of mouth,
better resale down the road)
Greg
Steven
> Coincidently enough I think the Wii stinks. I just don't like the
> idea of dumbing something down for the masses and never will. I don't
> want to play online with an 8 year old or a 68 year old who have no
> idea what they are doing. The Wii is only good if you are under 13,
> over 40 or drunk IMHO. It is a novelty and novelties wear off, I want
> a real game.
Nahh... The Wii is an entertaining device to be used with friends. In
my experience, adolescents don't think it's cool, but the main
buyersgroup is 25 to 35 years old. I like mine a lot. Hardly play by
myself but really enjoy playing with others.
Do you really own one, or do you just think it is to kiddy?
llabrevlis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Very sad to hear this, even though I don't really give a damn about
deep rulesets! What I do care about is that a game make sense, and if
you have lights and switches not functioning, or a mystery award
giving the same thing every time, then that is just plain wrong.
It sounds like Stern needs to have a meeting of minds between
management and it's designers, if they aren't going to let the
programmers do deep rulesets, then the designers have to change what
they put onto the playfields, you can't miss what wasn't ever supposed
to be there!!
Bionic Bart on CC is the classic case of this, in the early stages of
development, BB was going to be in the game, then he was left on the
cutting room floor. Unfortunately, somehow, Bionic Bart made it onto
the instruction card, so when the game finally made it out, everyone
wanted to know where BB was. Aside from the no match sequence, it was
what made it obvious that the software wasn't finished, even though in
this case he wasn't really supposed to be there anyway.
Gary Stern should bite the bullet, spend whatever it takes to
satifactorily complete the code on SM, WOF, IJ4, and BDK, then if he
wants to change directions and produce games with simpler rulesets,
that is his perogative and may indeed be the way to go, but a truly
committed "Pinball" business man. which Gary claims to be, would
finish what he started on the last 4 titles.
Dale
Lloyd Olson
"Pin_In_Calgary" <alf...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:OLnok.6475$%b7.313@edtnps82...
Rare Hero
> Very sad to hear this, even though I don't really give a damn about
> deep rulesets! What I do care about is that a game make sense, and if
> you have lights and switches not functioning, or a mystery award
> giving the same thing every time, then that is just plain wrong.
Exactly - and that's the thing that needs to be made clear over and
over to those who dont "get" it. This isn't deep vs. simple. It's
finished vs. unfinished. Advertised vs. delivered. Consistent vs.
Inconsistent.
Greg
lin...@umich.edu
Here's my issue: For a while now Gary has been talking about
simplifying things etc etc. While I don't really like games like
say...BK which are VERY simple, there are a lot of great B/W games
that have moderately simple rulesets that I love playing. SS, MM, AFM
etc. My problem is that they aren't designing simple games, so the
rules can't be simple, and apparently also can't be finished. It
seems like Gary's definition of 'simple' is to set the stage for a
complex rule set, but then just have everything be repetitive.
If they wanted to make IJ4 a good, simple game, then why did they
start by filling the middle of the playfield with an indicator for 16
MODES!? A game with 16 modes, no matter how repetitive or useless
they each are, is not simple.
Here is my vision of what a simple IJ4 could have been: Hit the ark
for multiball (same as now), hit the ramp for increasing points (i.e.
10k, 20k, 50k, extra ball), one of the scoops is a mystery award, the
temple of doom scoop, when opened, starts a hurry up. This ruleset
would be just as successful for locations, and since they actually
approached 'simple' the right way, they could complete the code (!)
and have a polished effort. Would this sell to the home buyer? For
non-pinheads, definitely. To pinheads, maybe a little less than
before, but i know many would be happy to pay for something that was
finished.
I just don't get why they are designing games like they are if they
want to make them simple. They need to rethink all of that.
Also, I think we definitely need some new blood in terms of
designers. I am very happy with the layouts, but the designers are
(no offence intended) honestly just getting old. Since they aren't
really fulltime employees of Stern, it just feels like they are doing
their designs as a favor. It's like if, for example, I was a plumber-
and I worked full time with that. And then my neighbor had a plumbing
issue, so i stopped by after work to help them out. Obviously I could
get the job done, but I definitely wouldn't approach that job like my
real job. We need some new guys who can get really invested into the
Stern business and be doing this as their job and their passion.
Brad
dan.littlejohn
I think the sad thing is that this bad press is actually costing Stern
money. I was going to buy a Batman, but now I think not (LoTR was a
great buy BECAUSE of the software). And I am not sure who Stern think
plays those operator machines. Only the die hards are trying to get
people to play them. Seems like a dumb idea to abandon the people
that want you to succeed (and help you) and expect the people that
will drop you in a second for crane games to keep your business a
float. But what do I know.
Dan
american...@hotmail.com
> On Aug 12, 2:49 pm, "MattyK." <hrcmat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would totally support the local operators if they put more pinball
> > machines out and less Big Buck Hunter and Golden Tee. My days of
> > dropping $3 bucks in Golden Tee are over.
>
> You are the last guy I know that ever put $3 in a GT game in the last
> 2 years. They sit unplayed MUCH more than a pinball machine these
> days.
>
> > Every now and then I will
> > luck out an find a machine in Phoenix and when I go to play it...it is
> > filthy and has major issues.
>
> I usually offer an op my free cleaning service....always declined.
>
> Kirb
Most operators are very distrusting. It stems from how crooked they
are themselves.
hagis_u
comments from Stern today worry a lot of us and will change the way I
look at a NIB and the way I purchase one as well.
Lloyd Olson
<american...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:102c5b55-79e8-454c...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I usually offer an op my free cleaning service....always declined.
>
> Kirb
Most operators are very distrusting. It stems from how crooked they
are themselves.
To be fair here. When a person offers to clean pins for an op on location.
It isn't just the op. The location might think something is up when another
person is in the game, especially a person who isn't employed by the company
that placed the game there. Locations can be paranoid about thinking they
are being cheated. They will worry more about losing money, than making
more money with a clean machine.
metallik
> earth makes these other games 'horrible'? Every so often, a dot
> matrix animation is missing? How terrible!
Well, since you asked, IJ4 is horrible because it's boring. Nothing
to do with depth... HS2: Getaway has no depth, just two simple goals
(stoplight multiball, and gears/redline mania), but it is a blast to
play because it's fast, has great effects, and the goals can be
reached pretty quickly and aren't too repetitive. IJ4 was like work -
shoot this same shot over and over til a lamp lights, then shoot it
even more. Your rewards were grainy animations and an occasional
multiball with vague goals. No excitement, no strategy, just ... work.
marc_b
> > Chris
>
> Thanks for the comments Chris. I don't doubt any portion of it. What
> I do doubt is whether Gary knows his ass from a hole in the ground
> when it comes to the true technical "rubber hits the road" side of his
> business. He is a businessman from before the computer revolution.
> John
LOL- no, he was a fucking lawyer before he was a "businessman". Too
funny (no offense to Greg D)
Rick Swanson
> Stern should hire volunteer employees, to cut down on costs.. I am
> sure they could run the place with volunteer work..
I'm at a loss for words.
Rick Swanson
Ozricman
done with pinball forever? A similar wave of depression overcame me
at the reading of this post. Instead of it being the death of
pinball, its like finding out that pinball has an incurable cancer and
you know you will have to watch your best friend(pinball) slowly die
over the next couple of years. How utterly sad and disappointing.
taylor34
in the video game/arcade business--don't alienate the hardcore fans.
The second you start doing that is the second it shows that you've
totally lost focus of your core business. A classic example that
actually fits this case pretty well is Electronic Arts.
In the early 90's, they were a struggling company. Then came the EA
sports brand, and very high quality games that seemed to make great
advances every year, adding more depth and cool features, bringing in
more and more customers.
Fast forward to 2000/2001--with the advent of the ps2, suddenly things
start changing. Instead of features for the hardcore crowd, features
started disappearing, fluff and hype became more important than actual
gameplay. Hardcore sports gamers started to become frustrated with
the product, started leaving their game. Now in 2008, EA has gone
from the #1 name in sports and gaming quality in 2000 making money
hand over fist to the worst quality gaming company in existance today,
losing tons of money.
#1 rule--don't piss off the hardcore fans. Because when they leave,
your business will be in trouble eventually. Maybe not today,
tomorrow, or even next year, but it will catch up to you eventually.
Personally, I think that the game designers and software guys are
doing a great job with the time limitations and resources they have--I
only wish Gary Stern would give the teams more time for that extra
'polish' that LOTR and TSPP had. Next year, they're making a rock and
roll pin, possibly ac/dc. I'd buy that NIB, first one ever--but not
if the current issues don't resolve themselves. Honestly, if they
canned one of the upcoming games and left an empty slot, they could
really get the software finished plus boost long term sales (WOF and
BDK could be sellers for years if they contained the same killer
rulesets as LOTR and TSPP).
Just my opinion
Taylor34
mr tobias
> Interestingly enough, Stern Pinball has also decided that the way
> forward may be to simplify games and make them straightforward again.
> A lot of hardcore pinball players are now sitting around complaining
> about how 'lame' and 'simple' these new games are, while these
> machines out earn the machines a lot of people have said are the best
> by leaps and bounds.
>
> I'm not saying that Stern will get the same reaction and it will
> completely revolutionize the industry, it just seems not to be a bad
> strategy, and one that I find an interesting parallel in our own world
> about...
Hasn't this approach been tried before? Premier/Gottlieb tried it in
the early nineties with their "street level" games. Not exactly the
same I know, but the approach was abandoned after about six games.
ChrisH
I absolutely agree with this and tried to express this very thing more
than once. If you can please MOST of this crowd then you have
something special all the way around. That is why I think Stern
should use this forum as an incredible free gift of information.
There is a lot of nothing on here because we are here for fun too, but
there are incredible ideas and opinions that could be of use as a
market guideline to your hardcore audience. Please the diehards and
the rest will follow. Many company's spend a lot of money for this
kind of input. But, unfortunately, RGP is shrugged off as fodder and
nitpicking. Some of it is, but there are some very good, stong
opinions here as well.
Chris
badbilly27
Very well written post. I appreciate your sharing in the manner that
you did. I must say I am sincerely considering canceling my BDK order
and turning my attention back to the classics exclusively. I respect
their business approach but do not agree with it. Disheartening how
old schoolers will never open their minds to the new economy and
strive to innovate rather than replicate. I'm off to convince Steve
Jobs to enter the pinball market. ;-)
Captain Neo
> I think the sad thing is that this bad press is actually costing Stern
> money. I was going to buy a Batman, but now I think not (LoTR was a
> great buy BECAUSE of the software). And I am not sure who Stern think
> plays those operator machines. Only the die hards are trying to get
> people to play them. Seems like a dumb idea to abandon the people
> that want you to succeed (and help you) and expect the people that
> will drop you in a second for crane games to keep your business a
> float. But what do I know.
>
> Dan
Exactly. If Batman's software had the longevity of LOTR in a home
environment, i'd get one as well. It would be worth selling a couple
of games to get one. But if it's finished half ass, I won't even buy
one used for $2500.
DE and Sega never did this. They had updates for code, long after
the production run was long finished. Fixing bugs, adding little
things here and there. Why do the programmers have to go pro bono,
if we want a well thought out and deep game. That's why LOTR is so
genius. It has your short term objectives that anyone can grasp
right off the bat. Has mini endings that are fairly easy for the
average player to obtain. Yet has tons of side projects and hidden
secrets, with a super hard final objective, for the better players, or
people who stick a lot of money in. The story and ending is
everything for pinball. It's what converted a lot of us video gamer
type people. If they didn't have story and endings, I wouldn't give
a shit about pinball today. Software is everything. I wouldn't
care if the theme was strawberry shortcake eats smurf poo. If it had
a kick ass ruleset and gameplay, it would be worth keeping. And if
your not going to spend any time on software. Throw a bunch of
senseless T & A on the theme, to at least make you take a second
look. :P
bobbyd...@googlemail.com
response to the first one. . . Like it or not, Gary Stern is the last
man standing. His company hasn't gone belly-up yet. The day someone on
RGP starts up their own successful pinball company is the day I will
respect their opinion on how Gary Stern should run his. It doesn't
matter how deep a ruleset may be or whether a game has a nifty toy
that catches your eye- pinball is in its dying days on a public level.
Let's just enjoy it for what it is and however long it lasts.
Craig Tiano
wrote:
>On Aug 12, 2:29?pm, ChrisH <chaz...@ptdprolog.net> wrote:
>> Sorry if some of this is all over the place. ?I am writing from work
>> as I stop and start other things. ?I didn't finish one sentence that
>> was basically about Gary's view being that because they are the only
>> game in town we should learn to accept that they carry the pinball
>> torch. ?I took that to mean that a large backlash over their current
>> practices would be bad for them and us but that would require
>> admitting that we matter while at the same time telling us we don't
>> make a dent. ?So I'm not sure where that was going. ?I actually
>> listened more than spoke and tried to understand things from their
>> point of view. ?It seemed the respectful thing to do.
>>
>> Chris
>
>I think ordering all of RGP to start harassing the tech people over at
>1800kickers with obnoxious whines about the Batman code is the most
>respectful thing to do.
>
>If that doesn't win their respect, what will?
>
If you truly want to get his attention, organize a boycott of a
specific new title. Those 10-20% of new games being purchased by
collectors such as ourselves would surely make a statement.
Craig
twilightzonepinball
Clarify........
The PLAYERS ARE the customers.
The OPs ARE the problem since they don't maintain the machines.
PEOPLE love pinball.
DEEP is not necessarily fun.
Lyman should start simple and add complex if time allows. NEVER
release incomplete code.
Why do we have an advanced player writing the code? How about a game
designer picks rules that fit within working code?
Just change the letters to spell to fit the theme for example. The
newness can come from rearranging the "furniture" on the playfield.
2 cents, IMHO.
-Tom
Google tom wible and get the Pinball Basics DVD
Coin-Op Cauldron (Clive)
**Please don't do this** A boycott and similar nonsense will hurt
everyone at Stern -- designers, the people who put the games together,
the janitor along with the distributors and Op's in an already tough
climate. These people DO NOT deserve this kind of bevahiour!
If you want to show your disapproval, write Gary Stern a letter or start
a petition.
Clive
Professional circuit board repairs...
-- The Coin-Op Cauldron --
103 Armistead lane
Easley, SC 29642
(864)238-1707
www.coinopcauldron.com