pinball, a question of ethics.
mgk
how can you, with a clear conscience, suggest to a friend that they
buy a new Stern for $4k+ when there are used machines available in
exceptionally clean condition for $2k or less?
SaBbRa CaDaBra
I know what ya mean, but it's not like buying a new Stern is a bad
thing. Your friend might enjoy spending the extra amount to support
the company.
Lloyd Olson
machine. Any warranty important to them ? They buy a used one you suggested
are you married to it for repairs ?
A lot more to think about here than clear conscience. LTG :)
"mgk" <overloo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Tom G
Some people don't like the games under 2k. That's why they are less
seymour.shabow
Where do ethics enter into this?
Now, if you're buying the used machine for 2k and selling it to your
friend for 4k, that's different.
You can just tell them you can get brand new games for $4k and used
games (different titles! obviously?) from anywhere from free to $10k
which a lot being around 1k-2k.
-scott CARGPB#29
Arizona Bruce
have to wax your own playfield and change your own lightbulbs... (me
too)
Many more have scads of cash and investments, don't work, don't have
too... Want all of the nicest machines, don't know which end of the
light bulb goes up... I've seen them, I know them... Some of them are
my friends... Most wouldn't know S**! One about what a good pin even
is... BUT, they have money and want a NEW ONE! I went to one persons
house just last month to service their pins... There they all were 7
BRAND NEW Stern titles, their favorite was "24"... (giggle). They
didn't know which one was better, they just had the money an wanted
new shiny things... and that's not an isolated instance, I can cite
many instances just like that...
They're not bad people... $4k+ may sound like a lot of money to you...
apparently you're not a member of that club! ;-)
Arizona Bruce
AZB
John Wart, jr
That's no different than buying a new car for 30k or buying a used car
for 15k.
Sure, they will both take you the same places, but the new one isn't
used, and some may be willing to pay a premium for that.. others may
prefer to have a cheaper option and be willing to accept used.
cody chunn
get a nice used one for two grand on down to six hundred."
Then they decide.
Conscience doesn't even enter into it.
--
-cody
--
"mgk" <overloo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8ebd111a-ed5a-4d53...@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
>
AVP Pinball Division
news:8ebd111a-ed5a-4d53...@l8g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
>
> buy a new Stern for $4k+ when there are used machines available in
> exceptionally clean condition for $2k or less?
If they demand a full-size, real, new game fresh out of the box, that's the
only answer.
--
Pistol Pete
Parkville, MD
JediTurtle
What a silly question. If your friend has their heart set on a
Spiderman, how can you in clear conscience suggest they buy a cheaper
game instead? Let you friend decide what they want to buy for
themselves. Sure, you can make sure they know their options, but to
purposely steer them away from something they may love just because
you think it's too expensive is silly.
Hogey
I've bought a lot of used games and a few NIB...call me stupid, but I
still love the thought of opening a NIB machine and being the first
one (other than the workers that made it) to use it. The best thrill
I had was driving to Chicago and picking up a NIB IM at Stern (and got
a free tour to boot)...got to chat with John Borg, Gary, Marketing
guys, etc. Well worth the 4 hour one way trip to me...
phishrace
That's weak bait, but I'll bite.
Extremely easily. As long as they want one I like.
I would never suggest a friend buy an IJ4. New, or otherwise. No
matter the price. Friends don't let friends buy IJ4. Everything else
is in play, but no Indy
-phish
steime
This is only an ethical situation if you are the one selling the new
stern.
wbradley
You make this sound as serious as euthanasia.
It boils down to what games he wants and affordability. You may not
necessarily be willing to buy NIB, but that doesn't mean others
aren't. NIB is the best choice for people who are not prepared to look
under the hood, so to speak. Speaking for myself, I have 10 games,
most of them worth 2-4K. So, if I didn't have a fascination for the
innards and learning how to fix them, I could easily have just bought
4 or 5 NIB machines over the same time period and still ended up
pretty happy.
PS- When people say buying NIB is a good thing as it supports Stern,
that's all good and well but that will not be the motivation to buy.
Its satisfaction of one's own wants/needs.
Mr. 68
It depends.
If I’m working on a sales commission, then my buddy gets the NIB.
If its hourly and I get to play it on occasions, my buddy gets the
NIB.
Kim - CARGPB #36 - Still struggling with the friendship concept.
www.WrongCrowdProductions.com
DMD Glare Guards
Arizona Bruce
> I've bought a lot of used games and a few NIB...call me stupid, but I
> still love the thought of opening a NIB machine and being the first
> one (other than the workers that made it) to use it. The best thrill
> I had was driving to Chicago and picking up a NIB IM at Stern (and got
> a free tour to boot)...got to chat with John Borg, Gary, Marketing
> guys, etc. Well worth the 4 hour one way trip to me...
Wow... That's Awsome... I have to give Gary credit... Not often a CEO
would take the time to meet customers! I've done alot of service work
for them... They DO take care of their customers... New parts sent out
immediatly... Even MPU's No questions, No send us the old one first...
I doubt they would even care if the old one got sent back (IMO I may
be wrong) Tech support even on 20 year old DE titles... More companies
could benefit from their example...
Arizona Bruce
AZB
ldnayman
Same way you can suggest your friends buy a new car or TV.
Everyone knows that if they buy something new it loses much of its
value "right off the lot."
I don't really see the ethical dilema here.
KenH
Have you bought a NIB machine? The answer may change how you feel
about buying a new vs. a used machine.
--Ken
Ken
Hey D,
I'm liking some of the responses, especially from the folks who don't
know you :-)
But they raise a valid question: Where is this coming from and where
is this leading to?
The argument of new car versus old car applies here, but I suspect a
deeper meaning behind the question. Especailly when a used Ferrari
might be (and usually is) considered better than a new Ford :-)
So what's up? I could give reasons like: support an American company,
support the only company still making pins, new smells nice, Avatar is
the best pin evar!, etc.
But I don't think that's what you are looking for. Am I right? Cause
knowing you and "your collection" I can see a whole lot of reason to
buy new and can see a whole lot of reason to buy used.
Ethics would imply that buying used is 'bad', buying new is 'good' (or
vice versa), but that doesn't hold water either. Too may variables
and too many opinions.
Perhaps, if I'm not reading too much into the question, you could list
the games and get opinions on those...
In my opinion: Avatar and/or IM are great. Better than, say Fish
Tales, but not better than, say Dr. Who. Or whatever you decide to
slap in there for a 2K pin... You could go around all day on that
one... I mean, if the guy loves Avatar and hates Dr. Who, you can't
even worry about saving $2K, right? Conversly, if the guy loves Poker
and that is his hobby, how do you even bring up Avatar or IM despite
the guys net worth? You wouldn't even discuss it if the pin is loved
or hated by the masses. WPT is WPT and who cares if the upper level
pin-wizards hate the backglass? I think the game is great all around,
but that's just my opinion and has nothing to do with what I can
afford or not afford. And I pretty much can't afford a 2K OR a 4K
pin, so I'm definetly in the minority around these here parts...
My other 'problem' is that I'm really starting to get into 1930's
games. That makes everything I buy 'used', so that also adds to the
mix of dilema as to how to answer your question...
Just wonderin' Probably wouldn't have even responded if I didn't
recognize your moniker and was severely curious :-)
-Ken, CPL
www.Team-EM.com
http://whizbangpinball.blogspot.com/
http://www.gallopingghostarcade.com/
mgk
i like asking [rhetorical] questions of myself and others. reading
everyone's opinions and reactions to a simple hypothetical is good fun
in my book.
so yeah, thanks for the replies. keep em coming.
KenH
Great thread, really. Makes you think. On one hand, it may seem
crazy to spend >$4000 on a new machine. ON THE OTHER hand, it may
seem crazy NOT to spend >$4000 on a new machine.
Say you love pinball (most of us do). How would you feel if you NEVER
bought a new machine, and someday (I hope this day never comes in my
lifetime) there is no place to buy a new machine from? Some will say
they won't care, but I don't think a person can reliably know how
they'll feel, until they are *really* in that situation. Lets face
it, $4000 comes and goes on car payments, house payments, groceries,
credit card payments, taxes, and a hundred other things we don't want
to spend it on, and its gone with nothing to show for it, but a new
machine is always sitting in your gameroom for you to admire, enjoy,
play, show off, take pride in, etc.
--Ken (c/o Stern Pinball inc.)
ovfdfireman
How is this a question of ethics again?
I was between a new spiderman and a like new TZ. I went for the new
spiderman. Hell a used on is $3800. I am glad I did, love it, and
the NIB experience is one I would recommend for anyone who has the $.
So is it unethical to price a MM at $7000, when the are Williams
Jubilee machines out there for $400? I am trying to follow the
logic. Spiderman will always be worth more than $2000 IMO.
AFM_TZ
Tell your friend you can buy NIB and have something shiny, or, get HUO
for a few hundred dollars less, make sure it wasnt abused, or go lower
price for Routed. Let them decide - just let them know the options
available and the expected cost at each level based on recent sales
records.
Ethics - let them figure out whats best for them. If you twist them up
to take NIB, then of course, you are forcing them to not make the
right decision for themselves.
Of course, i would suggest NIB for the right game, HUO for others.
Why? Having gone NIB, nothing beats it - it is worth the extra pop.
Knowing its new and clean is worth quite a bit to me personally. HUO
is just as well, and you save a few hundred if not more. But,
sometimes, supply isnt there (we tend to rush into things) so NIB gets
the default win.
Finally, routed - personally, i tried it, and it nags me that the game
needs work that i just ran out of time to tend to. But thats just me.
Jerry
How can you, with a clear conscience, suggest to a friend that they
buy a used game that shows wear and will need maintance for $2,000
when they have no ability or desire to work on games and want
something that looks new for their game room? A new game with
warranty, available parts, better reliability and better looks can be
had for 4K.
While collectors want specific titles and are willing to work on games
most people want something to just be set up and not have to worry
about it. They didn't buy a used big screen, used surround sound or
used furniture for their home. To get something that looks new you
have to wait for a HOU or get a high end restoration, those prices are
close to new or more.
I recommended a good condition used game for a friend, he bought it
and is happy with it. Since then he's bought 2 NIB and really prefers
those. No dorking around with them, they look great in his family
room, and have that NIB smell that everyone loves.
Jerry
MrBally
There is a price to pay for the fun of sliding a brand new game out of
the box, removing the packing materials, shipping lock down tape on
certain features etc. vs. gently used vs. project games. Adding to the
fun is the Xmas morning debut of a NIB pin. I've done it once and it
is quite the thrill/
Jus like a new car. Ex: A new German sport sedan for $80k or a two
year old one off of a lease that still has a warranty, was well
maintained for $40k. If money was no object, nothing beats brand new,
if money is a factor, the 40k savings can buy some new tires, the
inevitable trim items that could use replacing as well as severalNIB
and HUO pins!