Thoughts on Stern
Keith P. Johnson
that pinball machines do not earn enough money on location. Whatever
the reasons for that (and there are a LOT), that is the problem that
must be solved.
There are several prevailing opinions held by the only people that
matter:
1. Players must have 3 minute games to feel like they are getting
their money's worth.
2. Games must have at least 3 bumpers, "Italian bottom", plunger rod,
and a toy.
3. All the toys have to be seen by every player every game for them
to feel like they are getting their money's worth.
4. A couple bars in south Chicago are a microcosm of the entire
world.
Point 1 is certainly arguable. Frankly, though, I don't see how you
have any clue about how much fun people are having unless you're at
the location watching people play the game. Guess how often this
happens?
Point 2 is probably actually a pretty good forumla in general. It
would certainly be the one of the 4 I agree with the most. You'll
still never get me to agree that the WPT plunger wasn't a complete
waste of money though. But for all of these demands, it was never
demanded that playfields have fewer shots and more pinball activity
(or ball randomess). People play pinball to see the ball do stuff,
not to hit posts between an assload of shots all day long.
Point 3 is asinine. If people can see every cool thing the game does
every game, there's no carrot for them to want to try and see it
again. The biggest example people always talk about is Thing coming
out to grab the ball in TAF. Think that happened every game? I'd bet
closer to one in every 3 or 4. Multiball in the 90s was also
generally an average 33% achievement. IMNSHO, you have a far better
chance of drawing repeat money from someone trying to get something
than from someone who probably only would've played once anyway and
has no interest in seeing the cool thing again.
Point 4 is just conceit. And irrelevant anyway if you're not watching
them.
Anyway, those are my views on what's wrong. Now, what needs to be
done?
Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
reasons, ops just haven't taken to it. You'd be much better off with
a newish product dedicated strictly to tournament (or at least
primarily). People also complain that games last too long (this is
mostly a byproduct of point 1 above and the fact that the gap between
players of any skill (let alone good players) and casual players is
gigantic). The natural solution to both of these problems is
tournament bagatelle. I'm not even joking.
But I've suggested that, whined about shot-based games, whined about
3-minute games, and countless other things and was never listened to.
I was barely starting to make some ground on more random playfields,
but who knows what will happen now.
Ultimately, though, if you're going to pay people to work for you and
do a good job and have good ideas, but then disregard them for your
own prejudices, what's the point really?
I can't remember if I said it during my topcast or not, but in the end
it was really a relief to be let go. Plus, I had already started
looking. It took a long time, but ultimately it became obvious to me
that I was tired of trying to help and feeling like I was generally
ignored and no way was I going down on that ship.
When the ship is going down, you have 2 options: repair the hole, or
get a bigger bucket and bail faster. The problem with the latter is
that eventually the bucket gets to be so big and so unwieldy that it's
impossible to deal with anymore. And ultimately, that is where I
personally feel Stern is at.
keith
--
At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
Maybe someday they'll return...
Rare Hero
just 'eye candy'. Thing in TAF is cool, but really has nothing to do
with gameplay. Same thing w/ the ark in IJ4. It's cool, but it's
just a ball dumper. On the other hand you have Stewie Mini-Pinball
in FGY and the crane in BDK ...toys that are relatively easy to
activate, but are pure gameplay in their function. I think maybe
that's the best type of toy solution. Easy to start, yet absolutely
interactive. That type of toy doesn't lose it's "carrot factor", IMO.
Greg
Juan_Fingers
in I just think overall people just don't care about pinball. Mabee
pinball needs to take a break and who ever tries to build the next
game start with an LCD screen. Mabee cross pinball with the game
Dragon's Lair. All I know is I appretiate the work Stern has done to
deliver new games to us pinball fans. Thanks Keith for your work.
Lewis
vinito
interest toward pinball. When you consider that flocks of sheepy
people tune in to view a dysfunctional group of boring folks on
"reality" TV, and even the step up to watching Poker on TV which is
incredibly boring unless you're very into it, then the idea of having
a TV program that showcases pinball competition seems much more
exciting. Live Poker tournaments vs. Poker on TV kind of fed each
other to create the marketing giant it is, and it doesn't seem
unreasonable to think it possible for pinball to do that too. As
someone who is kind of into pinball but not a heavyweight like many
folks here, I would LOVE to watch good camera work following games of
tournament players because I'm sure just seeing how they play would
help my own skills a ton. But if local tournaments simply existed in
many cities, I would guess that there would be a ton more location
income. The past couple years I have fed pinball machines at the PHOF
a couple times. That's it. If there were a local tournament to get
into and a place to play, I would spend a little money every week to
practice, etc.
Regarding your bagatelle tournament idea, I guess you have a concept
in mind that I don't understand and would like to hear more details
about. But it does sound like you are pointing to a bit different game
type. And since pinball tournaments do already exist, I have to wonder
if the reason it hasn't "taken hold" is because of complex tournament
scoring rules or something that keeps folks from diving in. So maybe a
bit different type of tournament too? I'm just speculating.
If tournament pinball/bagatelle could get a foothold, a little media
hype might be all it takes to get it to really take off. Hell, they'll
hype 5 minutes of total junk content and pad it with 10 minutes of
emcee jabber and 15 minutes of sponsor ads and they call that
entertainment. Seems like a pinball tournament could easily be much
more exciting to watch, whether on TV or in person. Just need a lucky
day and the right contact I guess.
I feel your pain in relation to your learned input being disregarded,
and I'm sure we're in grand company there. Whether you're an unknown
engineer/craftsman like myself or a well-known and respected engineer
& designer like you I guess doesn't matter. It seems that ego and/or
politics shouldn't trump consideration of good ideas, especially when
things start heading downhill. But it sure does and it's seemingly
everywhere. Maybe it's always been like this, but it sure seems to
have become surprisingly commonplace these days. It's like a
management cancer. I agree that jumping ship is quite a relief when it
reaches that point.
As for me, I am now a contributing and respected member in a very
small, developing company (4 guys and a secretary), and it's difficult
to remember after all these years (yow!), but I don't think work has
ever been as gratifying. I hope and expect that you will find a place
every bit as much of a positive step for your future.
Best of luck to ya Keith.
PinGeorge
i read your posting and i think at least i understand 80% of all.....
In this way i write to you how i think about this all and i think that
many other people write in a same way as i do now; so sorry if i
repeat some thinkings and comments!
I think what happened in last time is very sad about all; what happens
to you and people which are working in the pinball scene. Also what
happens now with Stern pinball; but i think times are not changing
now; they changed before many years. This time changed at end of the
20th century when Williams stopped production with her pinballs like
the pin2000 system. They see it and that there is a changing in the
interest of people; and so if you look today what happens for example
with the young generation? I can speak about Germany or/and Europe;
and today you see that they are interested in a complete other way
like internet - handy etc and this world of young people is changing
in a fast way. If you ask young people for playing pinball they are
only laughing about this..... perhaps with playing pinball on a
computer that allows to change the game very fast from this game to
this game...... And also what is with people from my generation who
played this pinballs when they were young in the 1970´s to ´90´s?
Today this people don´t go so often to public places where you can
play; they stay at home and people live more and more alone. There is
no interest to go to public places to play this games; and also the
companies who take this pinballs to restaurants or pubs they have no
interest more - because this machines earning not enough money.
This is the reality and life sometimes change - and to make change is
very difficult - i know by myself!! There is change in life and i a
job and there is no one who is really interested if you can do this
change or not. But if you can´t change in life you´ll stop and after
long time you loose the reality.
Today i see the reality in this way: There are many people who like
this pinball machines as i do with my crazy work; but it´s only
private and hobby. It´s like to restore a old oldtimer car; but there
is nothing more. And so there are many people which restoring old
pinballs and this people are happy about this work and play this old
machines at home. It´s like a little place at home that remembers
about the past which is connected with many wonderful feelings from
this old times. Like the same with the old music boxes from Wurlitzer
with vinyl plates; they never will come back........
I hope you´ll find your way for future and i wish you all the best,
much greetings from
PinGeorge
Bryan Kelly
I saw this post and thought, DAMN, here we go again. Hasn't this been
beat to death already???
Then I saw it was from you, Keith. :-)
FWIW, I agree with most of what you say, however, personally, I don't
think any option is going to save pinball. Do what you will to ball
times, toys, type of play, theme, etc., there's simply too many other
options for people to spend their spare money and time on.
There simply isn't the interest in pinball like there used to be and
it's getting worse every day.
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
mattyb
Keith, thanks for your thoughts. Three words. Packaging, packaging,
packaging. That's a big problem for pinball. Stern is putting Ferrari
engines into Ford Taurus bodies. And we wonder why no one cares. The
cabinet needs a radical makeover. Make it sleek, modern, and
interesting and they will come. MattyB.
MattyK.
would be fun for a new player. The problem isnt Stern. Its the lack
of quality operators and the lack of places to play.
One reason the 90's was one of the glory days is because, at least in
Buffalo, NY.....there were machines at every pub, not to mention other
shops. The operators in those das used to keep the machines clean and
in working order.
Nowadays, any time I go to play a machine, they are either broken or
dirtier than an Alabama coed on prom night.
Steven
> packaging. That's a big problem for pinball. Stern is putting Ferrari
> engines into Ford Taurus bodies. And we wonder why no one cares. The
> cabinet needs a radical makeover. Make it sleek, modern, and
> interesting and they will come. MattyB.
That's your opinion, not a fact.
I think pinball can be saved by some brilliant plans, like a lot of
products can be sold with the right plans, marketing, hyping, etc. The
problem is it's not that easy to figure out what'll work. I would do
some things differently, but then.... I don't have any experience, so
what's my opinion worth? If you only read what a lot different
opinions here at rgp are written down, it's not that hard to imagine
it's hard to create a plan that'll work right.
I do think that because the operator market is still declining, a new
market has to be found. Make it either home users, or new places where
pinballs can be put to the public. I think the 2nd of that has been
tried by operators, if possible, so I'd say try to create a market for
home users, besides all the pinngeeks. There are a lot of whealthy
people out there who can easily afford a pinball. I just don't think
they ever get the idea to buy one, they probably don't even know they
are for sale somewhere. I'm not saying I know how to adress them.
Another thing is to hype pinball as some sort of fancy sport. That
would increase home sales and operator machine-plays both, but how to
do that? Like the suggested 'make it a tournament-machine' is probably
the first step, but again: how to do that (without millions
available).
Then there's the european market. I thought about 50% of the games go
to Europe, but I don't see Stern acting like Europe has any value,
when I look at some of the themes (WPT, Sopranos, WOF, CSI has got
viewers, but is not as popular as in the USA). Maybe ask some
marketeers in Europe what will sell here, before investing in a
license.
I still hope there's a future for Stern or another pinball company.
I'm just affraid that if Stern closes now (which I still hope not....
I'm not someone who believes it's over allready) that there's little
chance someone else will take the risk to stand up and buy the factory
(or, more expensive: build an own system and factory).
Under the given surcumstances, if Stern doesn't see the use of real
change of policy (wether smart or stupid, I can't really tell), I
would first drop the amount of newly designed pinballs from 4 to 2 a
year. it'll save cost, and if the operators really are the main
customer: it's confirmed often that most don't buy 4 different models
a year. Why not design less games, so you need less sales to break-
even.
The longer Stern excists, the more reruns can be done if wanted. You
can also still re-art (drawings, sound and DMD) some of the games, to
have another version coming out at less costs, so there are 1 or 2
really new games and 1 or 2 with a new theme. I don't think the ops,
or most of their costumers will care if it's a re-done-playfield (and
ops are still the main market, so Gary tells us).
Rich
(or hire some) I have never seen an ad or commercial that would motivate
anyone to go out and play. It shouldn't be a commercial stating Stern is
this or that per se, but more of a product placement in a hit TV series.
Think of all the product placement spots Cisco did with their security
products, teleconference, and IP phones in shows like 24, CSI, and The
Office. Who the hell knew who Cisco was (besides network people) before
their ads and product placement techniques? Show somebody cool playing
pinball at a bar or something. The quality/ toys/ game time/ is all
bullshit focus in the wrong area. Unless it has a girls head pop out of the
coin door that gives hummers, it's not going to matter. Ever since the
video game "evolution"; that's what people know, and that's what is cool in
the eyes of most. I am sure eveyone here can agree that they have turned
people on to pinball that normally would have walked right past. Paint the
picture that pinball is cool, as perception is reality...
Just my opinion... and we all know how opinions are... (like an asshole,
all stink, everyone has one... etc etc)
"Keith P. Johnson" <pin-w...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5r7kj45ibdg0r2ste...@4ax.com...
mattyb
> > Keith, thanks for your thoughts. Three words. Packaging, packaging,
> > packaging. That's a big problem for pinball. Stern is putting Ferrari
> > engines into Ford Taurus bodies. And we wonder why no one cares. The
> > cabinet needs a radical makeover. Make it sleek, modern, and
> > interesting and they will come. MattyB.
On Dec 6, 9:48 am, Steven <steven.vander.sta...@gmail.com> wrote:>
> That's your opinion, not a fact.
Fact: No one is going to pay 180K for a car that looks like a Ford
Taurus. Doesn't matter how fast it is or how well it handles. A great
product also needs great packaging. For pinball, that packaging hasn't
been updated in decades. MattyB.
Rich
"mattyb" <mdbr...@sentara.com> wrote in message
news:ef2c9be9-56aa-4215...@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
chuckn...@gmail.com
route money in video arcades in the early 80s on Joust, Asteroids,
Space Invaders, Tempest etc. I solely remember the Black Knight
pinball machine and the magnetic save feature but dismissed it (at
that young age) as not fun and a quarter drain. Why did I come to
love pinball after forsaking for over 20 years - - the tactile
mechanical feedback, the visual/audio joy of the artwork and good
sounds tracks and the varied rule sets that I never understood as a
young teenager. I bought a couple of the Bally/Williams
collectibles (IJ, FH) in the last few years because of these
qualities, personal earning power and the ability to 'connect' with my
video-game (Wii, PSP, PS2, etc) crazed 8 year old son. I agree with
the comments that pinball marketing/manufacture needs to be
reexamined. Is the pizza route/video arcade outlet/bar really going
to garner the attention of today's youth (and the operator's ROI) and/
or are you going to sell a lot of pinballs into a well-heeled nostagia/
collector mind-set? - - personally I don't think either is the correct
niche for the current pinball machine offerings. I like the
tournament mode suggestion/comment for the gambler in me - - why not
look at building gambler-specific machines that are more immersive
than the current boring 'one-arm bandits' in the various state casinos
scattered around the US? My son still loves RFM best of all given
the video game integration and I think that this type of out of box
thinking targetting the video game generation was/is key for long term
survivability. What about different 'form-factors' for the home
market? Zizzle tried this with the lower end home based models but
I think further iterations are needed - - do you really want to haul a
300 lb machine into your basement? Can't they integrate video and
the mechanical aspects in a lower cost (< $1000) and smaller form
factor for the home based market? It seems like they could reduce
the weight/size and hence lower the cost for a home-based audience
that won't have the bang and bustle of a commercial establishment.
I hope to see the hobby/industry strive but I too question the
viability unless there is focus on designing machines per a specific
customer target market (e.g., home-based, video-game obsessed youth,
bar location, etc)
My two cents,
Chuck
Del
> > reasons, ops just haven't taken to it. �You'd be much better off with
One Problem I see with this is that these Touraments are not legal in
every state, I do not know if the Police would enforce the law on this
or not .
One thing I see is that Stern turned out 3 - 4 good games to close
together & the OPs who are making less money these days have not
caught up to buying all of the new games, I know it cost a lot of
money to design a New game & I think re-mkes using these same new
games should cut 15 % off the top of building more games .
Look at SM, There are a lot of games that could be make on this
design, You have Ironman out there & also Hulk that could be built &
that would give 3 games right there on one platform.
Twilight the Movie could be built on either IJ4 or BDK & I think that
would work if you changed just a few Toy's. ( This could be a really
great game )
Stern could find a way to cut production cost by making re-makes &
that way each machine location could have different games rather than
buying 5 IJ4s, a OP could offer more games which would mean more games
Sold.
A Local OP here I'm friends with has 5 - 6 TSPP & it seem's buying 5
or 6 of the same games leaves less games the OP would have to Rotate
around .
There ARE ways Stern can keep doing Business & making games & re-makes
seem to make a lot of sence right now .
Just my thoughts Keith, But I'm just keeping a Open mind & I know
that's easy to say since I didn't lose my Job .
Best Wish's !
Pin-Del,
cargpb28
Scylla
Keith,
Did Stern ever discuss partnering with a few distributors to develop
the Asian market? And I mean, not just offering them for sale there
but what could be done with location owners to develop pinball as an
entertainment option there.
Any discussions at Stern about working with the remaining large
arcades in U.S. (here I am thinking about Gameworks and Dave and
Busters type places) about how they could partner together to draw
younger players to pinball. Did they ever discuss assisting or even
funding promotions at these place to draw attention to the machines?
It just seems that focusing on the product here has limited return on
effort and that focusing energy on developing and nurturing the market
(i.e. new players, new marketplaces) would give better long term
return. Without a market for the better product, well..........
Interested in your insights. Thanks.
BlueMalibu
"Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
reasons, ops just haven't taken to it."
Since I have been running both TOPS and Live tournaments at Marvin's I
throw out a couple thoughts for what it is worth.
First, I agree, tournaments help a lot. When TOPS tournaments are
running total plays (tournaments and non) go up. Many times it
doubles the plays.
However, the GAME still matters. Tournaments ALWAYS have done well on
FG. And OK on POTC. But they don't help IJ4 much at all.
You have to PROMOTE the tournaments. We post the Marvin's tournaments
here and on other Pinball lists. We promote them on Craigslist. A
local op here ran a TOPS on a spiderman in a bar. I knew about and
tired to promote it for them. I won it...all $12 dollars, 1st, 2nd
and 3rd places. Heck, the tournament ran for the first week and the
op forgot to connect the tournament button!
Live tournaments promote the location A LOT but they are A LOT of
work.
There is a diminishing return. The first tournament did the best.
The others are good but not AS good. You can't run them too close
together or play drops way off.
You need a way to deal with the "A" players. Regular patrons will
stop playing if an "A" player stops buy on the last day and BLOWS
their score away! Best way is to ask them nicely simply not to play.
This has worked out for Marvin's.
We also got WPPR points for the last TOPS tournament which I think
more people should embrace.
Another MUST for location pinball is a better ticket system. The
software MUST be improved to be MUCH more flexible. This probably
doesn't matter at Bars or some other locations but at the few arcades
and "family fun centers" remaining if this is not done the games will
NOT be played by kids.
I talked with Stern (Joe Blackwell) about this via phone and e-mail
and while I think he agreed the ideas were good - he had no way of
making it happen. It would be relatively low cost for a large
benefit, IMO. If you don't get the kids to play then the slow death
continues. If I had the ability to hack the software and fix it I
would. We offered to put a test game in Marvin's and track the plays
by kids. Funny, Marvin's now has a Williams Ticket Tack Toe and guess
what?? Yep, this flipper game out earns the pins and it is 25 cents a
play. It cost less than 1/4 the price of a new Stern and is much
easier to maintain.
The game has changed for the kids money. They are gambling now and
the pinballs just don't pay out. There is a ethical argument here but
that aside the pins need to pay out to succeed. If we could change
IJ4 to pay a ticket for every million AND for each HIT ON THE ARK I
would guarantee that game, as disliked by us as it is, would out earn
all the other pins by AT LEAST DOUBLE!
Keith, how much would it cost us to have you make this mod :)
enough rambling,
Parker
black...@skynet.be
thought about marketing the games ourself!
If for example you go to a bar every week along with some others and
you ask every week for the new Stern, if they don't have it you leave
with your company without consuming anything. After a while these guys
want to have a pin because they're missing income! And say they start
putting new pins on that location, you can keep doing the same thing
if there's a new Stern and begin to ask for that newt new game. This
keeps the games changed and more locations come available.
Why would a bar owner or another location even put a pinball machine
on his location when nobody asks for it, that's the starting point I
guess.
I think the survival of pinball and Stern is in the hands of the guys
that WANT to make a change is in this hobby.
Talking about what they should do or should have done is one thing,
ACTING is the other one and the most important.
Organise tournaments at your home, invite friends that don't know
pinball, make them interested. Events on school, put a pinball machine
there so the kids can get a chance to know it. If there's an event in
town, take a pin with you and give a price to the guy with the highest
score etc...
There are so many things WE CAN DO to promote the hobby besides only
talking about what Stern should have done (with all due respect to
Keith!)
There are some good ideas but there is also a role in this downturn
for the collectors, the guys that "breath" pinball!
We can make a change if we want too.
There are operators that tell locations that new pins aren't being
made, if you go out on location and prove to them there's still a
company around maybe they'll keep bugging the operator till he buys a
new game.
It's all connected to each other and if nobody tries anything I don't
see pinball survive the next 10 years.
Not saying that Stern is almost done because they had to cut costs IMO
to make the company healthy again. I do believe that Gary is the right
person to keep on making pins and guiding Stern into the future but
maybe not to "advance" pinball.
Just my big 2cents apparantly :))
mr tobias
I may be reading it wrong but when he talks about a bagatelle
approach, I think Keith is hinting that you may have to take out much
of the skill factor in order to close the gap between the skilled and
the novice player, thereby making tournaments more universally
appealing.
Tournaments are the way forward. In two locations I am associated with
we have just initiated tournaments to cover the Christmas and New Year
period. The Stern Bump and Win system is not quite perfect but it does
offer the operator decent options beyond standard play, provided the
op can be bothered in the first place. Trouble is bad ops are lazy and
don't want any extra work. Good ops clean and maintain machines, and
update software. They're the ones who will tweak the parameters and
make tournaments work on their sites. We need more of them, and we
need to support them where they exist.
mr tobias
> LMAO!!
>
> I saw this post and thought, DAMN, here we go again. Hasn't this been
> beat to death already???
>
> Then I saw it was from you, Keith. :-)
>
> FWIW, I agree with most of what you say, however, personally, I don't
> think any option is going to save pinball. Do what you will to ball
> times, toys, type of play, theme, etc., there's simply too many other
> options for people to spend their spare money and time on.
>
> There simply isn't the interest in pinball like there used to be and
> it's getting worse every day.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree it's hard to turn the tide, and personally I think Gary's
approach is just too restrictive as a formula for pinball of the
future. However, I don't agree that pinball is beyond all hope.
I have seen at first hand how properly operated machines can gradually
build up a customer base, and what's more they can attract people in
their teens and twenties who start to become quite competitve once
they work out what it's all about. It takes a while for them to give
it a go, but once they do it's surprising how many of them play
repeatedly.
There are many factors that have undermined pinball, but one of the
biggest is customer awareness, especially amongst the young, and I'm
talking about the playing public, not simply collectors or operators.
Stern's reliance on flyers, distributors and a licensed theme to get
the public talking and playing pinball is not enough. They need to
market their product more intensively.
David Gersic
> There are many problems with Stern. The biggest problem, by far, is
> that pinball machines do not earn enough money on location. Whatever
> the reasons for that (and there are a LOT), that is the problem that
> must be solved.
Agreed. Given the target market (operators), if the machine doesn't earn,
the game is dead. Changing the target market (home buyers, rich dumb guys,
etc.) doesn't seem a viable long term strategy. Even if you could get
some people to buy one game for their home, what you need is for them
to junk it a year later and buy another one. Unlike big screen TVs,
convincing people to do that just doesn't seem likely to work. At best,
maybe a goal for someday, but not an immediate possibility.
> There are several prevailing opinions held by the only people that
> matter:
That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it. My company, my product, my rules.
> 1. Players must have 3 minute games to feel like they are getting
> their money's worth.
I'd like to believe that this is based on extensive research. More
likely it's a number pulled out of thin air. As targets go, it's not
a bad one, I guess. You have to have some kind of target to shoot at,
though if games were pulling in coins, aiming for a shorter game time
without alienating the players would boost earnings somewhat. The game
has to have some local adjustment / tuning capability so that the
operator can tailor it to the local players and environment. As
delivered from the factory, an average location with average players,
should come in close to the target, whatever the target is.
> 2. Games must have at least 3 bumpers, "Italian bottom", plunger rod,
> and a toy.
This comes closest to the reality here in rgp, but I don't know about
the real world. Games with pop bumpers generally get better reviews here
than games without. I'd like to see some variation to the "Italian"
bottom, but there's only so much you can do with it, and most of it has
already been done. I don't see people clamoring for kickers instead of
slingshots (World Cup, Hot Wheels, for examples) or for games without
inlanes (Fireball). Plunger rod vs. auto plunger? Eh, who cares. As long
as the ball gets put in to play, I can't see any major changes here that
are going to pull in new players or generate any real excitement in
existing players.
Toys seem a fact of modern games. I don't think you can change that.
Even the die hard fans here seem to need them. I don't think you can
pull a Firepower or a Black Knight now. A simple toy like Space Shuttle
maybe.
> 3. All the toys have to be seen by every player every game for them
> to feel like they are getting their money's worth.
This one doesn't make sense to me. If you don't hold something back, then
what's the carrot for repeat plays (and coin drops)? Giving it all up on
the first coin drop might get the first coin drop, but it won't get the
second one.
> 4. A couple bars in south Chicago are a microcosm of the entire
> world.
Well, you have to test somewhere, and somewhere close to home has to be
a lot cheaper and easier than somewhere far away. Maybe with a Pin2K type
platform, where you could establish test locations in some major cities,
then ship a playfield and translite to them, you could get a more
representative test market. But given the form factor, I can't see a
widespread testing program. And to be really useful, as you comment,
somebody has to be at the test location observing and reporting on the
performance of the test game on a pretty regular basis. If that's not
being done, then the only thing you're testing for is ball hangups.
> Point 1 is certainly arguable. Frankly, though, I don't see how you
> have any clue about how much fun people are having unless you're at
> the location watching people play the game. Guess how often this
> happens?
Points 1 and 4 go together. If you're not testing somewhere representative
of your market, and not putting people there to see the test, then you're
wasting an opportunity.
> Point 2 is probably actually a pretty good forumla in general. It
> would certainly be the one of the 4 I agree with the most. You'll
> still never get me to agree that the WPT plunger wasn't a complete
> waste of money though.
Cost of materials, maybe the simple plunger rod wins out here. I can
think of other ways to get the ball in to play, but are any of them
cheaper, or more effective, than the simple plunger?
> Point 3 is asinine. If people can see every cool thing the game does
> every game, there's no carrot for them to want to try and see it
> again.
You have to give them a taste, to pull them in. Thing's a good example,
as even the crappiest player has a chance of seeing Thing pop out to
pick up the ball. Maybe not enough times to see Showtime, but enough
of a chance of it happening to believe that it can happen again.
> The biggest example people always talk about is Thing coming
> out to grab the ball in TAF. Think that happened every game? I'd bet
> closer to one in every 3 or 4. Multiball in the 90s was also
> generally an average 33% achievement. IMNSHO, you have a far better
> chance of drawing repeat money from someone trying to get something
> than from someone who probably only would've played once anyway and
> has no interest in seeing the cool thing again.
That's the problem with toys. Even if you manage to devise the coolest
toy ever, once somebody has seen it, the novelty wears off quickly. But
if they have no chance of seeing it, then there's no point to having it
in the game. Tough balancing act to that.
Game play based on toys is doomed, IMHO. And maybe that's the death knell
for modern pinball as we've known it.
> Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
> reasons, ops just haven't taken to it.
Chicken and egg? If tournaments were pulling in tons of coins, you'd
see every op in the country setting up tournaments. But if nobody sets
up a tournament, how will it ever pull in coins? The video game
revolution didn't happen because all of the old pinball ops wanted to
run video games. It happened because ops got wind of people like Tim
Arnold moving quarters from collections with wheel barrows. The coffee
shop revolution didn't happen because a few thousand people woke up
one morning with a burning desire to run a coffee shop. I happened
because they saw Starbucks selling $0.10 cups of coffee for $6.
> You'd be much better off with
> a newish product dedicated strictly to tournament (or at least
> primarily).
I'm no lawyer, but pay outs seem the only simple way to encourage
people in to trying something. They'll risk a small ammount of
money at the chance to get a large ammount back (slots, lottery, etc.).
It helps if the activity is heavily advertised as "fun" (lottery?),
or percieved as "fun" (slots, cassinos in general). But many states
seriously restrict gambling or anything that looks like gambling, so
getting in to that market without getting squashed seems difficult.
Or, does your target market become Atlantic City, Las Vegas, and Indian
reservantion cassinos? Would it be heresey to abandon the street
operator market entirely?
> People also complain that games last too long (this is
> mostly a byproduct of point 1 above and the fact that the gap between
> players of any skill (let alone good players) and casual players is
> gigantic). The natural solution to both of these problems is
> tournament bagatelle. I'm not even joking.
Flipperless pay out games? Or flipperless "tournament" only games?
Interesting idea. I'm having trouble imagining a bagatelle tournament
though. Without some kind of flipper on it, it sounds about as
exciting as a slot machine tournament. Mabybe going to a one-ball format
though, with no extra balls, or replays. No multi ball? Maybe. That
would bring down the game time, and could work better for competition,
so the player can't set something up on ball 1 and collect it on ball 2.
One ball, game's over. The higher skilled player is going to absolutely
kill the lower skilled player on most games, but there's always a chance
for the underdog, which could make for some more excitement in a tourny
situation.
> But I've suggested that, whined about shot-based games, whined about
> 3-minute games, and countless other things and was never listened to.
Time to move on, then. Maybe you should be talking to Larry DeMar.
He's already got the business model that could make something like
this happen.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Doc's??? Oh, you mean the stuff we wipe up coffee with? |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
mattyb
On Dec 6, 10:33 am, "Rich" <rich_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I paid it.
>
> "mattyb" <mdbri...@sentara.com> wrote in message
On Dec 6, 10:33 am, "Rich" <rich_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I paid it.
Just my luck... I use a car analogy when arguing with a NASCAR team
owner. :) MattyB.
Lloyd Olson
"Keith P. Johnson" <pin-w...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5r7kj45ibdg0r2ste...@4ax.com...
> There are many problems with Stern. The biggest problem, by far, is
> that pinball machines do not earn enough money on location. Whatever
> the reasons for that (and there are a LOT), that is the problem that
> must be solved.
>
> There are several prevailing opinions held by the only people that
> matter:
>
> 1. Players must have 3 minute games to feel like they are getting
> their money's worth.
>
Players ( customers ) must have value. Not necessarily time, but fun or
entertainment. They put a quarter in, they have to have at least a quarters
worth of fun.
>
> Point 1 is certainly arguable. Frankly, though, I don't see how you
> have any clue about how much fun people are having unless you're at
> the location watching people play the game. Guess how often this
> happens?
If I'm open, I'm there. I keep my eyes open, if I'm doing something right, I
want to keep doing that.
>
> Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
> reasons, ops just haven't taken to it.
That is because you cater to the worst customer, the one that puts money in
and can play all night without putting more in. And then you reward that
same customer with a trophy, prize, or money. In the mean time, your joe
average customer gets disgusted never having a chance and quits coming in.
The customer that used to pay most of your expenses. And often you only see
the tournament players if you are running a tournament.
Tournaments look good for short term growth, if you are trying to cook your
books and sell the business, look how much it's grown. A year or two later
you'll be empty. Pool, video games, or pinball, all short term help and long
term damage.
And TOPS as it is, is a good example of a good effort gone bad. Put in 50в,
win four games, play two tournament games, jackpot goes up $1, ( if set up
for 1 credit to plat, 2 credits to play tournament ) so far the op has 50в,
1/2 to location, and he's out $1 he has to add to pay of jackpot, and he's
made a quarter, or lost 75в. You can tweak TOPS for better results, but the
same players win all the time and others quit playing.
Tournaments or leagues often die a slow death, run good or not.
That has been my experience. LTG :)
Lloyd Olson
customers no matter what. Change is coming here. Air hockey was big, foos
ball had a few years, video games, pinball at best couldn't hold a candle to
them, and coming soon - redemption equipment. LTG :)
"mr tobias" <john_...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:16f87857-6a55-4bc5...@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
didn't matter, though it really did to me and effected me. Lloyd
"Keith P. Johnson" <pin-w...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5r7kj45ibdg0r2ste...@4ax.com...
>
> Ultimately, though, if you're going to pay people to work for you and
> do a good job and have good ideas, but then disregard them for your
> own prejudices, what's the point really?
>
movis...@comcast.net
Future II
Pinball as we know it is done. All of my peers wonder why I waste my
money and time on these games, then they try to get me to buy Golden
Tee, Virtual Bowling, some driving game, etc.
The death gasp of pinball is the sound it makes when somebody walks
away on ball 2.
Nobody cares anymore except for us. Other than what has already been
said, there is a fundamental problem here. A lot of people feel like a
loser playing a game by themselves. Go to a bar with a variety of
arcade and watch what gets played. People want to play with their
friends. If they're playing a pin, that other person is standing
around picking his butt.
barry c
> Ironic. I posted a gripe about Stern one time and you blew me off as it
> didn't matter, though it really did to me and effected me. Lloyd
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ultimately, though, if you're going to pay people to work for you and
> > do a good job and have good ideas, but then disregard them for your
> > own prejudices, what's the point really?
>
> > keith
> > --
> > At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think sometimes we think pinball has a following larger than it has,
because all of us on this site love pinball. Would marketing help,
yes. But the real problem is that the market for pinball machines is
not large enough. The customer base is disappearing as people and ops
have moved on. The volume is just not there.
cccgol...@sbcglobal.net
>
> Did Stern ever discuss partnering with a few distributors to develop
> the Asian market? And I mean, not just offering them for sale there
> but what could be done with location owners to develop pinball as an
> entertainment option there.
>
> It just seems that focusing on the product here has limited return on
> effort and that focusing energy on developing and nurturing the market
> (i.e. new players, new marketplaces) would give better long term
> return. Without a market for the better product, well..........
>
> Interested in your insights. Thanks.
There was a post earlier in the week on Stern where I asked basically
asked the same thing. I kind of figured that The Chinese and Japanese
have a habit of taking anything from the American Culture, and making
it hip in their own countries eventually. I thought that the Asians
could be next to carry the torch for the future of pinball. They have
the technology and cheap labor in China to pull it off. They make
everything else so why not ? Basically the consensus was by everyone
else that it was a bad idea, because Asia has no interest in pinball.
China still has some catching up to do in my opinion with the rest of
the world. So I think it could be done over time, but I'm not sure if
there is enough time left to make that happen any time soon. Just my
opinion.
metallik
> the pinballs just don't pay out. There is a ethical argument here but
> that aside the pins need to pay out to succeed. If we could change
This is a good point, however I'd say kids have always gambled on the
pins. One of the reasons I played more pinball as a kid was ability
to win free games. On a video, when your last man died, you were
done. On a pin, I always had the chance to pop it and get a freebie.
I don't think most people even know about free games anymore. Either
change the game to make the replay potential painfully obvious, or
ditch replays totally and spit tickets. The latter would be best for
family fun centers.
metallik
> That's the problem with toys. Even if you manage to devise the coolest
> toy ever, once somebody has seen it, the novelty wears off quickly. But
> if they have no chance of seeing it, then there's no point to having it
> in the game. Tough balancing act to that.
The trick is to design toys where the novelty does not wear off so
quickly. Family Guy's mini PF is a good example. even the worst
players have a good chance of starting it, but it remains challenging
for even skilled players. I see people play my FGY who have played it
dozens of times and they still get excited when stewie pinball
starts. Rudy is another good example - smacking him in the face never
gets old, and the "ooh ahh" factor of the technology lasted a long
time... hell, it's still neat today, 18 years later.
Stern's Playboy is a good example of toys that do get old.. too easy
to activate all of them in one game, and watching the same centerfold
unveil 3-4 times in one game gets dull. I guess it's fitting that
Playboy is a perfect example of a game that gives it all up on the
first play. Should have taken Lois's advice.. "..make him work for
it" :)
barry c
I think you have a point. I was just at a "Fun Center" and all the
games spit out tickets that the kids could exchange for cheap fun toys
at the counter. The pinball machine got no play from a mixed group of
adults, teens and little ones. The adults played the "shoot the hops"
and the sit down driving games.
Pinba...@gmail.com
Pinballs that fart consistantly earn great IE southpark or Family Guy.
the kids love it. Lets get a fart upgrade kit for Wheel of Fortune and
see what happens.
metallik
> win four games, play two tournament games, jackpot goes up $1, ( if set up
> 1/2 to location, and he's out $1 he has to add to pay of jackpot, and he's
> same players win all the time and others quit playing.
This can be fixed in software, if the ability isn't already in place:
- Free games (replays earned by score, GC or match) do not add to TOPS
pot
- TOPS games cannot be started from replays, only paid credits.
Safecracker kepts separate track of 'magic credits' - TOPS can do the
same between paid and won credits.
The last problem can be fixed by policy - limit the number of times a
certain player can win over a certain time period. Even easier for
you since you're there all the time and can watch who plays, but other
ops can simply track winners and disqualify repeats. Make sure this
policy is posted clearly on signs and on apron cards.
> Tournaments or leagues often die a slow death, run good or not.
> That has been my experience. LTG :)
Not ours. Over 4 years, Ohio League has grown from 12 people to 24
plus a sizable waiting list... we will likely have to create smaller
sub-leagues or divisions to meet demand, as 24 is about the max for
some homes. No, we don't play on location, because there are no known
suitable locations with enough clean, fully working games. If you
were in Columbus, Dayton or Cincinnati we'd absolutely use your
facility, probably several times. Do the Minnesota leagues play at
your location?
generalem...@hotmail.com
> We're always talking about marketing but apparantly nobody ever
> thought about marketing the games ourself!
> If for example you go to a bar every week along with some others and
> you ask every week for the new Stern, if they don't have it you leave
> with your company without consuming anything. After a while these guys
> want to have a pin because they're missing income! And say they start
> putting new pins on that location, you can keep doing the same thing
> if there's a new Stern and begin to ask for that newt new game. This
> keeps the games changed and more locations come available.
>
> Why would a bar owner or another location even put a pinball machine
> on his location when nobody asks for it, that's the starting point I
> guess.
> I think the survival of pinball and Stern is in the hands of the guys
> that WANT to make a change is in this hobby.
agreed! That is a good point. We RGP'rs and players are the ones
that want the games. We should demand them at our favorite hangouts,
instead of gripe incessantly to Stern about "toy this, toy that."
And, ask the manager, not the bartender or server, or ticket taker or
concession stand employee!
mr tobias
Interactive toys, for the most part, are far preferable to the passive
(novelty) type. I'd wager that the interactive stuff usually costs
more to engineer and implement though, as well as requiring a bit more
imagination.
Still think it's a shame they didn't turn that teeter-totter machanism
on BDK into a timed ball lock. It would still have been passive, but
SO much better used that way.
Mark Clayton
last pinball boom time: TAF. Complex playfield, lots
of toys and modes. The rules might not be super deep,
but the rules/tooling/art/sound/dots are all a major effort.
The bagatelle aspect is minimized in return for
predictable shots that reward the better players and
frustrate the novice.
So then setting up the game to give novices a 3-minute
game means that a decent player can tie up a game for
a half hour or more. I love my TZ, but I know that
a decent game will take 20 minutes plus, and some times
I don't feel like playing the game that long. On location,
the regulars know that when the local wizard is playing,
the game will be tied up for a long time, and when they
do get a chance, their score will be pathetic by comparison.
Guaranteed - since the chance element has been largely
designed out.
Look at the video for the old Stern Catacomb game that was
posted earlier. The two ball lock saucers are hidden and
there is no direct shot to hit them. Nice random element.
The rules for the game are complex, but not deep. No offense
meant to Keith, but I think it's generally a negative having huge
numbers of modes and rules that are so deep that most players
will never even know that they are there. Having SOME deep
games are fine, and I think Keith hit the nail on the head
differentiating between skill and bagatelle elements.
Modern (1992+) pinball machines simply rely too much on skill.
And the current games with shallow rule sets are simply
boring because of the emphasis on skill and removal of
too many random elements.
The proof is found in what is displacing pinball:
slot machines and redemption machines. It's still
fun to play a machine with random elements dictating
the results - even better if there is SOME skill
involved, and nothing is better suited to that than
a pinball machine. People will sit at a slot machine
and pull that handle all day, proving that skill
and complexity are not absolute requirements to keep people
entertained. It's the CHANCE of a big win, or RANDOM
events offering surprises that can keep players coming
back, not the same (albeit complex) game rules. Almost
winning big is hugely exciting, and it keeps players coming
back for more. A virtually unattainable "Rule the Universe"
mode turns off all but the hard core player.
The last pinball machine boom (i.e. TAF) came as a welcomed
surprise to the manufacturers, but that run is over.
Nobody can predict with any certainty if it is even
possible for there to be a follow-up surge, but that
surge will have to come by hitting on a new formula
to attract players - and simply rehashing the same 15 year
old formula will not keep the doors open at Stern.
Even if Stern closes its doors, pinball will almost certainly
pop up here and there in mutant form in the redemption world.
Those games may be vastly different than the current machines,
but that is almost certainly inevitable at this point. And
if they should hit upon a formula that attracts players, there
may be a pinball resurgence, but those games may be nearly
unrecognizable as pinball machines.
Game design is a highly creative process. Even with
all the analysis in the world, it comes down to either
an enabling technology (e.g. the Pin2000 experiment)
or just a great idea. But this is the rough formula
that I would apply:
1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout. Every game should
have objectives that can only be reached by random motion of
the ball. Being able to shoot at every objective is great for
tournament competition, but for the average player looking to
just have some fun, it's tedious and frustrating. In addition
to random ball action, there should be a random element to the
rules and objectives. Card games and casino games incorporate
that aspect naturally, but the basic scheme should incorporate
things that don't behave the same way every time. Use that
random element to tease and tantalize.
2) Modes suck. Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW.
Experienced players approach a new game and ask the same old
questions. How do I hit all the modes? How do I get the
multiball? How do I get the obligatory extra ball? How do I
get the wizard mode? Unfortunately, the number of people
wanting to play that kind of game is waning. Deep and
complex games are better played on game consoles nowadays.
But Pinball responded by adding MORE modes, MORE
multiballs, MORE rules, MORE wizard modes, etc. Better to
have a simpler objective: light up the grid, climb the ladder,
knock down all the clowns, etc. Make these goals as tricky
to accomplish as you like (and don't forget the random elements),
but break the now-old patterns of modes/extra balls/multiball/
wizard mode.
3) Ease pinball's entry into the redemption world:
A ticket dispenser is an easy addition, but don't base tickets
just on score.
Put some giveaway toys INSIDE the machine, to be dispensed
to the winners. SC gave away tokens - do the same with prize
capsules or some such.
4) Modernize the package. Dump the DMD, streamline the mechanical
layout and cut free from the fold-down backbox/detachable metal legs
package that brands the current product as "old fashioned". Make
pinball machines as easy to move and set up as a stand-up video game.
Integrate an LCD at the rear of the playfield like CV, but bigger.
No need any more for translites. Make either generic or changeable
sideart, so that new game playfield kits are practical.
5) Centralize and standardize high scores. Normalize scores
on all games so that personal high scores can be compared
across all machines. I have an idea of how this could be
easily incorporated into a centralized factory-sponsored
player "club", but frankly, the idea may be patentable
so I don't want to post the details here. But the idea
is that players could compete worldwide for high scores
(or other objectives) and the factory can sponsor prizes,
free games, whatever. It would build a huge fan base
of returning customers, loyal to the brand.
So that would be my advice to Stern. Since they are already
in the redemption machine business, the transition would be
fairly straightforward, although it may be too late for them
to attempt any kind of transformation, even if they wanted to.
The risk, of course, is that such a "Hail Mary" pass could still
fail - reminding us of Williams' Pinball 2000, which ended
pinball for the company. But Pinball 2000 didn't fail in the
marketplace as much as it was Williams' intention to kill
pinball in any case. Stern operates much more pragmatically.
-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com
MattyK. wrote:
> I think, all things being equal, Stern puts out nice machines that
> would be fun for a new player. The problem isnt Stern. Its the lack
> of quality operators and the lack of places to play.
>
> One reason the 90's was one of the glory days is because, at least in
> Buffalo, NY.....there were machines at every pub, not to mention other
> shops. The operators in those das used to keep the machines clean and
> in working order.
>
> Nowadays, any time I go to play a machine, they are either broken or
> dirtier than an Alabama coed on prom night.
>
pinbal...@aol.com
location are today. It makes some funny reading as well.
Pinball needs to make money for operators so it can regain respect -
and a chance at being bought;
1- Remove the coin slots from the front doors and replace with a bill
acceptor. No new pinball machine should be out there for 25 cent play
- and there are plenty.
2- Start/Finish ticket redemption program mode. One player, two ball
maximum - game spits out tickets based on score and easily achievable
goals - sink pirate ship etc - this will get the games back into
amusement arcades and get players familiar with pinball again.
3- Rebuild proven games - LOTR is a good start. Rebuild a game like
Space Jam with baseball theme, many other remake ideas that are viable
and cost effective.
4- Have a factory subsidized trade-in plan for operators. Trade back a
Stern Pin after 12 months (subject to condition) and pay $1299 and get
a brand new game.
5- Only release two new game models a year and one remake. Build small
reruns of proven games.
6- Eliminate distributors who do not stock and support the product.
There are many.
7- Factory subsidized lease program for operators. $599 down, $99 per
month for 12 months, trade back and start over again. That's like
$1500 before interest and that game gets sold to a home customer for
$2500 or so or leased again to another operator of $59 a month for
another year with $599 down.
Bottom line is still the cashbox or in this case, the bill acceptor.
The game ideally needs to make twice as much as it now makes and cost
half as much as it costs now........There is no one easy fix
especially in this economy.
With the Euro way down, don't look to sell more of anything into
Europe either.
I don't have all of the answers but these are definitely some of them.
Jack
si...@pair.com
> There was a post earlier in the week on Stern where I asked basically
> asked the same thing. I kind of figured that The Chinese and Japanese
> have a habit of taking anything from the American Culture, and making
> it hip in their own countries eventually. I thought that the Asians
> could be next to carry the torch for the future of pinball.
I don't know about China. But Stern used to be Data East, and their
parent company sold the pins in Japan - they did alright, considering
the high barriers, such as extremely limited space, expensive to get
parts, etc.
After DE divested the pinball operation, I only saw one pin the entire
time I was in Japan a couple of years later.
A lot of things require money - you have to spend money to make money
- like Cisco's global branding? That's super expensive.
Kevin
pinbal...@aol.com
>
>
>
> MattyK. wrote:
> > I think, all things being equal, Stern puts out nice machines that
> > would be fun for a new player. �The problem isnt Stern. �Its the lack
> > of quality operators and the lack of places to play.
>
> > One reason the 90's was one of the glory days is because, at least in
> > Buffalo, NY.....there were machines at every pub, not to mention other
> > shops. �The operators in those das used to keep the machines clean and
> > in working order.
>
> > Nowadays, any time I go to play a machine, they are either broken or
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW Mark - you have a lot of great ideas here too!! -
Jack
Mike
They have the familiar themes... why not market pinball as a quick
coin game with tickets? Get them into the landscape with Smokin
Tokens and Cyclones. A ball for a quarter, with a time limit, for
tickets based on scores or shot sequences. Opportunity to play
'traditional' style for a premium price. That gets them back into the
mainstream market, and gives the operator a different choice for the
FEC.
-Mike.
Flipper City Phoenix
At the pool hall I go to they have a row of dart machines that are
constantly busy while the pins just sit with nobody ever playing them.
I think if they made up pinball leagues The pins would be just as
busy. The ops make up the dart leagues(with winning cash backs) to
bring in the dough.
I use to have 5 pins in a rec hall where I lived, back when the NES
system was popular. I put 5 NES games in each machine, if you get the
high score you get choice of the 5 games(i know its not quite legal).
The pins were constantly being played.
If you put 5 pins in a pool hall or? & advertised a weekly tournament
(with cashback winnings just like the darts), You might do pretty
good. People would play thru the week to try to master the games.
Just a thought,
Carrol
Vilos Cohaagen
difference what so ever.
Pinball is done. It has been done, and Stern was just keeping it on
life support.
Think for a minute. Arcades are dying faster and faster every single
day. Over the past ten years I bet the number of acrades have
decreased by 75% or more around the USA. Every old arcade I can think
of except one is now long gone. The arcade is in archaic concept, and
pinball is a starving dinosaur within that archaic concept.
The only arcades really left are the big chain arcades like your Dave
and Busters and Gamestop. And guess what? These big boys for the
most part won't even carry pins anymore! To much maintenance and not
enough return.
Look, I love pinball and most of the folks here on RGP do. But
understand it is us, and a small percentage of the population like us
that actually give a shit about pinball. Nobody else does.
So let go of your "Stern should do XXXX" and "Pinball needs XXXX to
survive" ideas. Pinball made a great run. Let it go, and fade off
into nostalgia. Nobody here on RGP can save it. Hell, I am not even
sure Oprah could save it at this point.
Therefore pinball as a novelty/hobby amongst personal collectors like
us will live on. But pinball in the wild is over. Within 5 years it
will be nearly impossible to find any pins on location. Maybe pinball
will make a resurgence someday, but as Farley Claymore says "don't
hold your breath".
Vilos C
Sergio Johnson
> There are many problems with Stern. The biggest problem, by far, is
> that pinball machines do not earn enough money on location. Whatever
> the reasons for that (and there are a LOT), that is the problem that
> must be solved.
I think there's only one real solution to that and that's probably some
sort of cash/ticket payout. Look at the popularity of the fruit machines
in England, (every pub has one), and the popularity of the GT
tournaments here. The problem with the Tops style tournaments is that
everybody figures somebody is going to come in at the last second and
scoop. The payout needs to be based on your immediate performance. Free
games just don't cut it anymore as an effective reward. Have every 5
games contribute 50 cents towards a jackpot which maxes at say $5. Have
the game pay it out immediately. This would probably be very difficult
to make happen for all the obvious reasons, but I think it's the only
thing that could work and get pins back on the street. Who wouldn't
rather play some pin rather than pull a handle for a chance at some cash? :)
>
> There are several prevailing opinions held by the only people that
> matter:
>
(snip)
>
> Point 1 is certainly arguable. Frankly, though, I don't see how you
> have any clue about how much fun people are having unless you're at
> the location watching people play the game. Guess how often this
> happens?
Duh.
>
> Point 2 is probably actually a pretty good forumla in general. It
> would certainly be the one of the 4 I agree with the most. You'll
> still never get me to agree that the WPT plunger wasn't a complete
> waste of money though. But for all of these demands, it was never
> demanded that playfields have fewer shots and more pinball activity
> (or ball randomess). People play pinball to see the ball do stuff,
> not to hit posts between an assload of shots all day long.
Not sure if I agree or disagree here. I generally play to see if I can
make the ball do what I want it to and score well or accomplish a big
goal along the way. :) The game design sets some of the parameters on
how that can be best accomplished, but I'm not sure pops or manual
plungers are critical features. It's either fun or not, with or without
pops.:)
>
> Point 3 is asinine. If people can see every cool thing the game does
> every game, there's no carrot for them to want to try and see it
> again. The biggest example people always talk about is Thing coming
> out to grab the ball in TAF. Think that happened every game? I'd bet
> closer to one in every 3 or 4. Multiball in the 90s was also
> generally an average 33% achievement. IMNSHO, you have a far better
> chance of drawing repeat money from someone trying to get something
> than from someone who probably only would've played once anyway and
> has no interest in seeing the cool thing again.
Agreed, you have to have a carrot that lasts for a bit. OTOH, you can't
have a carrot that no one is ever going to get to either. TZ I think,
has a good balance of reachable carrots.
>
> Point 4 is just conceit. And irrelevant anyway if you're not watching
> them.
:)
>
> Anyway, those are my views on what's wrong. Now, what needs to be
> done?
>
> Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
> reasons, ops just haven't taken to it.
I think it's just too much work for most and the games don't earn enough
to make them want to put the extra work in.
You'd be much better off with
> a newish product dedicated strictly to tournament (or at least
> primarily). People also complain that games last too long (this is
> mostly a byproduct of point 1 above and the fact that the gap between
> players of any skill (let alone good players) and casual players is
> gigantic). The natural solution to both of these problems is
> tournament bagatelle. I'm not even joking.
That's a huge problem. We run into this at league on a constant basis.
Our solution has been to go the other way and make the games more
difficult rather than easier, more from time constraints than anything.
The casual players don't seem to notice the difference that much.
>
> Ultimately, though, if you're going to pay people to work for you and
> do a good job and have good ideas, but then disregard them for your
> own prejudices, what's the point really?
Yep.
>
> When the ship is going down, you have 2 options: repair the hole, or
> get a bigger bucket and bail faster. The problem with the latter is
> that eventually the bucket gets to be so big and so unwieldy that it's
> impossible to deal with anymore. And ultimately, that is where I
> personally feel Stern is at.
It's unfortunate, but I agree. I think that it's gone too far down this
path for any changes to be made that would create the sort of buzz or
radical turnaround that would be required for pinball to become viable
again. Maybe someone someday will have the throwaway cash required to
start up another company with a fresh approach, but I doubt it. After
Stern, I think the only outlet will be for somebody to approach a
company with a game out of their garage that gets produced a la Pat
Lawlor. The problem is that the institutional knowledge of what's
required and what works fades with every passing day....
Serg
heckheck
IDEA 1: As already pointed out, the kids play ANYTHING that spits
tickets. It's a mild form of gambling, and there's no harm in letting
them get a 10cent cupie doll for playing the pinball machine a few
times. Of course the best way to leverage this, is to have a mode
that severely limits game time if the game is being played for
tickets. Believe me, the kids won't care one bit. It's the tickets
they are after. At least at first it will be, and then they might
find that they like playing pinball. Skee-ball is really just a way
to turn quarters into a handful of tickets fast. Make pinball the
same thing (fast is an imperative), and do it with a few more nice
blinky lights and fun toys, and you'd have an instant winner.
IDEA 2: Casinos buy so much gambling equipment that's the direct
cousin of pinball, there's got to be some way to crack this nut and
find a place for pinball to fit in. Figure out some angle to leverage
the loyalty cards casinos use to comp guests. Casinos care about one
thing and one thing only, keeping people in their establishments for a
long time (that way they lose more). A well used tactic is the
loyalty card. This is a card that electronically tracks you as you
move through the casino and rewards you in ways to keep you there. If
you're losing too much, presto, a floor manager shows up at your slot
machine and comps you something. A meal, a show. Here's a bunch of
tokens, have some fun. If it worked, and kept people around (giving
them an adrenaline rush in the process), casinos would buy machines in
droves. Here again, I suggest a way to select a rock star mode where
the machine virtually explodes in the first 3 minutes, and you see
everything fast. No need for a long game. People want to be
entertained, this is pinball as entertainment.
IDEA 3: Make it easier for people to gamble amongst themselves with a
machine. Here we go with another mode selection at game start. Name
an objective and let people compete head to head to be the first to
achieve it, or to beat the other person's performance. Simple things
like consecutive ramp shots, most orbits, there are lots of ideas.
Highest 1 ball head to head score (on a single $0.50 play). This
should increase the appeal in bars where people will use the game to
do some friendly betting. Full games are too complex for this, but
modes would allow you to focus on one of many aspects for the purpose
of competition.
h_h
Mark Clayton
...
>
> BTW Mark - you have a lot of great ideas here too!! -
>
> Jack
Jack:
Thanks! That means a lot coming from one of the few guys
that's actually built his own game and put it out there.
Talk is cheap...
-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com
Keith P. Johnson
wrote:
>Ironic. I posted a gripe about Stern one time and you blew me off as it
>didn't matter, though it really did to me and effected me. Lloyd
Lloyd, I assume you are talking about tourament and the drunks in bars
discussion way back when. If that is not the case, then you'll have
to let me know.
It was probably the way I presented it, but my comments came about as
things were explained to me by higher-ups. I personally do not think
Stern's biggest customers were drunks in bars, but the people that
matter do, and that's what drives all the decisions.
I see you brought up the earned credits being tournamentable, which I
believe was the general topic back then. I was trying to explain that
Stern's position was that drunks in bars would never be able to figure
out paid credits vs earned credits, and since they are Stern's biggest
customers, they are the ones that have to be catered to. It is not
necessarily an opinion I share, and perhaps I did not make that clear
enough many years ago.
This prevailing attitude about drunks in bars no doubt relates to a
couple points I made in my OP, especially point 4. I think you'll
agree that your location does not resemble a Chicago southside bar
(though I could be wrong, it is an assumption on my part) either in
clientele or profile. You may even agree that your location does not
match Stern's majority of customers. Not saying that's a reason for
Stern to blow you off, but just trying to offer some insight as to why
that might've happened.
Anyway, I apologize if I offended you; like I said, my post back then
was attempting to offer insight, not blow you off. I thank you for
your kind words to me when I made the layoff announcement and wish you
good luck with your business in the future especially if you stick
with pinball.
I'm still in the coin-op business myself (as of Dec. 1), so I'm
sticking it out as well. I believe there are opportunities and
possibilities still available.
Steve
> When the ship is going down, you have 2 options: repair the hole, or
> get a bigger bucket and bail faster. The problem with the latter is
> that eventually the bucket gets to be so big and so unwieldy that it's
> impossible to deal with anymore. And ultimately, that is where I
> personally feel Stern is at.
>
> --
> At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
> Maybe someday they'll return...
Hey Keith,
Time to speak to you and everyone else that really cares about
pinball. I have known you to be a real "Pinball Man", and have told
you so to your face many times. There are few people that have been
so dedicated to pinball. I am not going to point to myself, but you
and the folks here know how I feel about pinball, and my dedication to
it. There is a lot more than you allude to as to what has happened to
pinball at Stern. We no longer have anything to lose, so why not be
honest about the hell it was working at Stern. It had its moments of
glory, but the truth is that it was hell to work there if you really
cared about making a quality game that could make customers happy.
See if you don't agree with me when I add the following points.
Point #1 is probably a good idea, except it should have been 2.5
minutes, not 3.
Point #2 is a string of ridiculous limitations enforced by Gary Stern,
except that I agree with the Italian bottom. It is a familiarity that
has been proven to be a good choice, since it is the only knowledge
that bozo players might be able to rely on to protect themselves from
the harsh physics of the effects of gravity. The inner lanes feed the
flippers, and the outer lanes drain the ball. To violate those rules
will inevitably alienate players on some level. I believe it is the
only thing that must remain from game to game, including the permanent
flipper locations and distance between the flippers. The science of
designing pinball and my own long history tell me that I am not
wrong. Yes, we joked many times about the usefulness of the WPT
plunger. We could have saved some money, but Gary wouldn't have it.
There was never a profusion of sanity raining down upon us when it
came to wisdom flowing from the "heavens." The "heavens" were filled
with a madman and a bladder full of piss, and that's what we had to
wade through every day while working at Stern. It was always a crazy
obsessed man that we had to deal with; he was making up the stupid
rules that we had to live with, and the end of pinball is what his
madness has wrought...
Point #3 is another ridiculous rule that we all had to follow while at
Stern. Gary is the one who insisted that every player got to see and
experience "everything" that the pinball machine could do, every
game. It was Gary's ignorant way of trying to make every player
happy, and he probably believes that he is right in enforcing us to
deliver his philosophy to the public. He will never realize the
damage he has done. He will blame everything else for the demise of
pinball.
Point #4 is another correct analysis of the distortion of reality that
was enforced as gospel at Stern . We could have had test locations in
other parts of Chicagoland, but the locations on the South side was
convenient to a person (who shall remain nameless) that was dedicated,
but did not understand the limitations of testing limited by
convenience, and was controlled by logistics instead of "the quest for
true empirical data." We had no choice but to live with the
situation. The truth is that this was the equivalent of no testing at
all. I guess you could say that we gained some insight as to
mechanical reliability, but that data is always contributed by any
test, anywhere.
Now let me "turn your headlights on" with some other observations that
you know to be true. Please, correct me if I am wrong or you
disagree:
My guess is that the experience of working at Stern today is much more
terrible than it was when things were going well, and that Gary's
acting worse than he's ever been. He can make 30 lives miserable
simultaneously in a heartbeat with just one of his "pep-talks", and I
am sure there are many a day.
There are a few of you who have gotten a personal glimpse into the
leader, like Greg Davis (azpinlawyer) and others that actually heard
the ridiculous lecture consisting of "Don't just buy every title we
make, go out on location and play them there, too.", and a lot of
other stupid arguments he makes. Gary and Stern Pinball would have
been so much better off if he had just kept his mouth shut.
He is totally responsible for what's happened to pinball in nearly
every way, and could have done better, maybe even survived the bad
economy if he:
Hadn't consistently ignored some of his best people's suggestions,
observations, and common sense.
Hadn't listened to cronies and lapdogs that suck up, help choose bad
licenses, and act like he's royalty.
Hadn't been so damned caught up in his own ego, the "need to always be
right", and his bad, really bad, and clueless micro-managing of
pinball design, which I was able to ignore nearly all the time, but at
no small cost.
Hadn't spoken to crowds of the pin-faithful and in so many words said
"We don't need you guys! We build pins for Operators!" (How business-
smart is this item? That is a PROFOUND piece of idiocy to fathom!
Think about that for just a second! Wouldn't the president of a
pinball company have to be SEVERELY insane to tell the fans of his
product that they don't matter? It just doesn’t compute with the
greed, either. Why not be the silver-tongued devil that he could be
at times?)
Hadn't picked and enforced the lamest, stinking licenses ever, and
ignored many great licenses.
Hadn't raised prices 3 times in the past year and in a bad economy.
This is true greed and very, very, stupid in a bad year.
Hadn't overworked everyone in the engineering department by shoving
through 4 pinball designs plus redemption games (well, now you know
the real reason for unfinished code, and "late" games) in a year's
time, through an undermanned infrastructure that could only support
about 2.5 completely finished pinball machines a year.
Hadn't greedily demanded that games get built on the production line
prematurely and knowingly unfinished.
Hadn't prevented the programmers (specifically Lyman and yourself)
from making updates for unfinished software: "That's stupid! We
aren't going to sell 1 more SM! Forget It!"
Hadn't ignored all information on the Internet, in fact, demanded that
all employees "Stop reading that RGP Sh*t!!! They're all crazy."
About this one, I had to laugh. He didn't think it was funny. He
really thought that he had the right to tell employees not to read bad
press about Stern on the Internet. He thought that operators and
distributors wouldn't look to rgp for reviews, answers, and problems!
(Here again, PROFOUND, unfathomable ignorance.)
Once, about a year ago, I told Gary in his office that we have a big
PR problem. I actually took the time to explain that RGP is like a
giant bulletin board. Anyone can walk along and read anything that is
there. I explained that right now there were about 3000 negative
posts about SM, and how people were getting VERY upset about the fact
that the code wasn’t finished. He immediately said, “How do we take
things down from the bulletin board?”, and I said “We don’t.” The
only thing he cared abouit was the removal of information! He said,
“Look, it’s not important. I want you to stop reading that stuff,
OK?” “Just forget about it.”
Hadn't over-released parts at some real critical times. For instance,
he knew that none of the designers wanted the FG license because it
was a dangerous non-family oriented entity. It had been sitting
around for years, until he finally made Pat use the license. Pat and
Lonnie made a good game out of it, don't get me wrong, but : THE
DEMOGRAPHICS WERE BAD AND NOT BROAD-BASED!
Families who didn’t want their kids to be playing games in their
basement with farting and puking spoke out by not buying FG. We sold
700. He ordered parts for 1200!! He listened to his cronies instead
of the knowledgeable people around him. His solution? Shrek, which
took forever, stole away resources from the rest of the queue of
games, and didn't break even.
Shrek was a nail in the coffin, maybe not the last one, but certainly
a nail. Why was it was a bad idea?: Distributors looked at it and
said, "Hey, what are you guys trying to pull here? This is a repainted
Family Guy!"
He over-bought again with WOF. There are other problems that I won't
go into now.
I am proud to have worked with you, even though we don't agree on
everything.
Steve
JBuffington
Another company ran into the ground because of arrogance at the top...
I really thought that Gary "cared" about pinball.
Python is "absoloootley" right..."The money men" just really don't
give a shit about an American icon.
Thankyou for the insight, and your dedication Steve. Your designs have
always been my favorites (Spidey is a masterpiece!).
Bryan Kelly
Thank you for that insight, Steve. And for all those who would post
here about how Gary Stern does what he does because of his "passion"
for pinball....well, here's the truth.
I like to think I'm a pretty good judge of people. Give me a 5 minute
conversation with someone and I'll tell you whether I care for them or
not. I've never met Gary Stern and had never even seen him until last
Expo at the banquet. It didn't take long, just watching him and his
arrogant ego parade around the hall like we were all there to worship
him, for me to decide what I thought of him.
You, on the other hand...I walk into Lloyds, while you sit at the
counter having lunch, and I ask Lloyd if the AH has shown up yet. I
forget now what your response was, but I immediately knew you were the
kind of guy I like. The rest of the day proved to be one I will not
soon forget.
Thank you for being you, Steve. :-)
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
gpsdrew
And of course for all your deciation and contributions to pinball over
the years. It is incredible listening to what you guys went through,
and how you stayed on and fought to keep pinball going as long as you
did.
I do not know Gary Stern, but It is obvious to anyone who's eyes are
open that he knows nothing about marketing, actually less than
nothing. If he nothing he would probably just keep his mouth shut,
which would be a 10 fold improvement.
Marketing 101 "EVERY" sale counts. Sales = cash flow and Cash Flow is
KING.
To have him tell you that finishing the software wouldn't sell one
more Spidey is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard.
I am just stunned...
All the best to you both.
Drew
David Marston
<black...@skynet.be> wrote:
>We're always talking about marketing but apparantly nobody ever
>thought about marketing the games ourself!
I think it *has* been talked about. Read on.
>If for example you go to a bar every week along with some others and
>you ask every week for the new Stern, if they don't have it you leave
>with your company without consuming anything. After a while these guys
>want to have a pin because they're missing income! And say they start
>putting new pins on that location, you can keep doing the same thing
>if there's a new Stern and begin to ask for that newt new game. This
>keeps the games changed and more locations come available.
This is an extension of what local groups like the Twin Cities Pinball
Enthusiasts (TCPE) already do. They go to likely locations to check up
on the presence of pinball in general. You're suggesting that they ask
specifically about the newest pinballs.
TCPE members also talk to operators. Some operators have to be written
off, but some become long-term allies.
>...
>I think the survival of pinball and Stern is in the hands of the guys
>that WANT to make a change is in this hobby.
On that point, I would cite the work of the IFPA/PAPA/WPPR cabal.
>Organise tournaments at your home, invite friends that don't know
>pinball, make them interested.
It doesn't have to be a tournament. Come-to-play events like Allentown,
California Extreme, and dozens of others get local TV and newspaper
coverage. A good next step would be for nearby *locations* to tie in
somehow: here's where you can play pinball next week, after the show
is gone until next year.
Maybe we also need to have events in countries like Japan, where the
potential is there. Any RGPers who've been to Asia want to start a
thread on that?
[Other good ideas snipped becuase I think some people are already doing
them. We just need them to happen more often.]
--
................David Marston at MV
american...@hotmail.com
Time for Stern to get Tom Nieman out his high paying gig at JCM-Global
to orchestrate a true marketing campaign/department at Stern. It could
very well save pinball.
cody chunn
lucid could actually take over Stern and make it work!
Unfortunately, on the other hand it makes me think there is no hope for
Stern in its current form.
Thanks Steve. You'll always have a halo as far as I'm concerned. :0)
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
"Steve" <kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5c771098-a5f3-444c...@w1g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
mattyb
It seems GS has little respect for pinball players. Apparently we're
either too drunk or too stupid to appreciate a quality product. MattyB.
gbi...@gmail.com
The gist I get out of this post is the best of pinball is still yet to
come. Has there ever been a game designed that was the designer's
vision? It doesn't appear to be the case. It seemes that upper
management and the allmighty dollar has always been part of the
equation.
There's enough resources out there for pinball to survive, even if it
isn't housed in a single manufacturing facility. I believe there'll
always be enough interest in pinball at the hobby level for it to
exist for many years into the future. These games are just too
awesome to slip away and be forgotten forever. There's no other coin-
op experience that packs the andrenaline punch that pinball has. If
there's even a glimmer of hope that pinball has a future beyond Stern,
we (as hobbyists) could only be so fortunate that you 2 guys would be
a part of it.
-Gregg B.
chuck
Damn...
That's one of the potential problems with a privately held company.
The owner has no one to answer to but himself. And certain
individuals can't handle that type of power and let it go to their
heads. I would like to think there is some hope for new pinball
machines. The glimmer of light I see is a company run by one of the
best video game programmers ever, Eugene Jarvis - Raw Thrills. The
arcade market for video games was considered all but dead just like
pinball. Eugene has found a way to still build new machines that are
a lot of fun and hopefully profitable. I talked to Cameron Silver
after our Nucore demonstration at expo and he told me a lot about Raw
Thrills. Maybe, when the economy recovers in a few years, someone who
is a real champion of pinball and actually has good business sense can
revive pinball in some form. There is definitely a market for
machines and someone could make a profit if they ran the company
properly. I can always hope ;-)
Eric Schmitt
will be reduced (if not eliminated) at next years pinball expo. We can
start be removing that banner above the tournament game.
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/Schmitt/Expo_06_032
--Eric
Rare Hero
> Hadn't prevented the programmers (specifically Lyman and yourself)
> from making updates for unfinished software: "That's stupid! We
> aren't going to sell 1 more SM! Forget It!"
That's amazing that he had this logic when it came to software....not
only would finished Spider-Man software sold "AT LEAST" one more
(lots of people were on the fence due to this) ....but they would have
sold more of OTHER GAMES, as people (including myself) remained on the
fence on other games due to the Spidey software thing.
> Once, about a year ago, I told Gary in his office that we have a big
> PR problem. I actually took the time to explain that RGP is like a
> giant bulletin board. Anyone can walk along and read anything that is
> there. I explained that right now there were about 3000 negative
> posts about SM, and how people were getting VERY upset about the fact
> that the code wasn’t finished. He immediately said, “How do we take
> things down from the bulletin board?”, and I said “We don’t.” The
> only thing he cared abouit was the removal of information! He said,
> “Look, it’s not important. I want you to stop reading that stuff,
> OK?” “Just forget about it.”
Wow.
> Hadn't over-released parts at some real critical times. For instance,
> he knew that none of the designers wanted the FG license because it
> was a dangerous non-family oriented entity. It had been sitting
> around for years, until he finally made Pat use the license. Pat and
> Lonnie made a good game out of it, don't get me wrong, but : THE
> DEMOGRAPHICS WERE BAD AND NOT BROAD-BASED!
> Families who didn’t want their kids to be playing games in their
> basement with farting and puking spoke out by not buying FG.
>We sold
> 700. He ordered parts for 1200!!
Now that numbers are being thrown around....I'm curious. How did
Playboy and Sopranos sell? Those are EXTREMELY less family friendly
than even Family Guy. Then again, I suppose those games came out at
"better times" Also, the operators dropped the ball on the FG
license...it is a super hot property w/ the teen-college crowd. There
should have been an FG in every college-town bar/bowling alley/movie
theater/arcade/etc.
> He listened to his cronies instead
> of the knowledgeable people around him. His solution? Shrek, which
> took forever, stole away resources from the rest of the queue of
> games, and didn't break even.
Wow, that's fascinating that Shrek was a function of leftover parts.
> Shrek was a nail in the coffin, maybe not the last one, but certainly
> a nail. Why was it was a bad idea?: Distributors looked at it and
> said, "Hey, what are you guys trying to pull here? This is a repainted
> Family Guy!"
Again, this shows the ignornace of the operators. They couldn't put a
FG in a Chuck E. Cheese or family location....now they could put a
Shrek there.
> He over-bought again with WOF. There are other problems that I won't
> go into now.
Well, where's that WOF re-theme!?! :)
So - now that we know that there are 700 Family Guy's out there, is
it's value gonna overshoot Cactus Canyon!? :) Now it's making me
wonder how many Spidey, WOF, IJ4, and BDK were sold...compared to FG.
Steve...you rock.
Greg
luther r
> Has there ever been a game designed that was the designer's
> vision? It doesn't appear to be the case. It seemes that upper
> management and the allmighty dollar has always been part of the
> equation.
Well, according to Gomez in the Tilt film, it sounds like during the
late 80s-early 90s heyday at WMS, that's exactly what was happening. He
says the CEO would come down and make suggestions, and the designers
would say "ok, we'll take that into consideration."
Don't know if it's ever happened at Stern though.
lr
mr tobias
It answers much as to why I've been growing increasingly concerned
about the direction Stern seemed to be going in over the last year or
so.
The blatantly unfinished code issue has always struck me as complete
madness. I wonder how many operators have suddenly decided to buy more
games because they now lack the wizard mode, despite having the
insert, and other bits of 'icing on the cake'. Somehow I doubt there's
been one extra sale as a result of that strategy, but I bet there's
been more than a few lost to enthusiasts, who don't seem to matter. I
hope the savings justify it.
If pinball is to progress, not just survive short-term, it seems we
need some new thinking at the top. In the meantime I hope 24 gets
built, and that it escapes the worst effects of design by commitee.
Even if, against the odds, it isn't Stern's last game, it may be the
last good one.
Lloyd Olson
When you have great talent available, I wish he'd have listened to them.
LTG :)
"Steve" <kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5c771098-a5f3-444c...@w1g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
meet Steve, please do. You'll remember it a long time. LTG :)
"Bryan Kelly" <bske...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1bbd99e5-5b65-4f7c...@v13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
pinbal...@aol.com
basement with farting and puking spoke out by not buying FG. We sold
700. He ordered parts for 1200!! He listened to his cronies instead
of the knowledgeable people around him. His solution? Shrek, which
took forever, stole away resources from the rest of the queue of
games, and didn't break even.
Shrek was a nail in the coffin, maybe not the last one, but certainly
a nail. Why was it was a bad idea?: Distributors looked at it and
said, "Hey, what are you guys trying to pull here? This is a
repainted
Family Guy!"
I don't know about that- we sold more than 250 Family Guys and 150
Shreks so far. We sold more Sopranos than anyone else and that's not a
family friendly title. The kids on the school bus or sitting watching
the news at the dinner table are exposed to worse than what's in FGY
Pinball.
The primary market is commercial locations. College type bars and
other younger demo locations. Stewie was featured in a Coke balloon ad
so FGY is the right theme and Coke does not waste too much marketing
money in the wrond direction. The problem with FGY was not the theme
and the game is excellent - problem is distribution does not
understand how to sell.....they only know how to write orders. That's
why we came up with a different title for a great layout of FGY and
that was Shrek.
Shrek is a great game on it's own. How many great Gottlieb games were
retitled just between 2 and 4 player models?
Real dogs were WoF and WPT - WoF is great for 65 year old granny's
pulling a slot machine handle. WPT had artwork done by a fourth grader
and the timing for the game was long past although Steve did a great
job. I think CSI is a very good game and I liked 24 when I played it
months ago.
None of this compels operators to buy and operate these games and we
return to the same points above. The economics are not there in the
present business model.
Jack
Brian Blonder
"gpsdrew" <dr...@thegpsstore.com> wrote in message
news:3f3da229-3b14-4f9b...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
(snip)
>
> To have him tell you that finishing the software wouldn't sell one
> more Spidey is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard.
> I am just stunned...
>
> All the best to you both.
> Drew
>
I've heard of the "short term" view that predominates corporate America, but
Gary's comment that "finishing the software wouldn't sell one more Spidey"
may possibly be the most extreme example of "short term view" of management
I've ever heard. Whether completing the Spiderman software would sell one
more game of Spiderman or completing the incomplete software in WOF would
sell one more game of WOF is not the important consideration. The important
consideration is what not completing the software to those games and this
fact being circulated was doing and does to sales of games manufactured
after those. To think that what you produce in Month 1 doesn't affect sales
of your next game in Month 4, and the game after that in Month 7, etc. is
about as short-term focused as one can get without moving backwards (or
maybe backwards was the direction Gary wanted to head - he sure seems to be
turning Stern Pinball into Sega Pinball with the same game manufactured over
and over again complete with boring rules and repetitive shots, through
moving a few ramps and toys around and changing the artwork and speech?
- Brian B.
Brian Blonder
I'm not sure how relevant your personal sales were of Shrek since you had a
biased desire to sell lots and lots of them (due to your involvement in the
idea of redoing FG as Shrek).
As to WOF, your claim that WOF is great for 65 year old grannies may be
correct as far as theme goes. However, as far as game play goes, WAY TOO
HARD for 65 year old grannies.:)
- Brian B.
<pinbal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f1c420e0-d70f-472e...@d23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
acarp...@madixinc.com
> Jack,
>
> I'm not sure how relevant your personal sales were of Shrek since you had a
> biased desire to sell lots and lots of them (due to your involvement in the
> idea of redoing FG as Shrek).
>
> As to WOF, your claim that WOF is great for 65 year old grannies may be
> correct as far as theme goes. However, as far as game play goes, WAY TOO
> HARD for 65 year old grannies.:)
>
> - Brian B.
>
As a purchaser of Stern games, there is no trust you have any chance
of getting a fiinished game since Family Guy, ruleset depth aside. I
got to believe this has not only impacted the insignificant collector
community but pontential operators doing basic research on whether to
purchase new Stern titles. I guess one can only hope that Keith and/
or Steve can hook up with the nucore guys to put out new games. Time
to find a new hobby..
pinbal...@aol.com
> Jack,
>
> I'm not sure how relevant your personal sales were of Shrek since you had a
> biased desire to sell lots and lots of them (due to your involvement in the
> idea of redoing FG as Shrek).
>
> As to WOF, your claim that WOF is great for 65 year old grannies may be
> correct as far as theme goes. �However, as far as game play goes, WAY TOO
> HARD for 65 year old grannies.:)
>
> - Brian B.
>
Hey Brian, my desire is to sell everything, not just a game that I had
a pinky finger in the thought process of.
It was the WoF theme that I made reference to and not game play or
rules.
Ultimately it always comes back to giving your customers what they
want and not what you want. You can only try to anticipate what they
would buy and what they would play and what translates into a fun
game.
Shrek just opened on Broadway and there is at least another movie or
two planned so that game could be rebuilt in small runs any number of
times into the future as well.
tomservo.mst3k
> Shrek just opened on Broadway and there is at least another movie or
> two planned so that game could be rebuilt in small runs any number of
> times into the future as well.
Hi Jack,
Why is this, isn't there an expiration date on the Shrek license? I'm
not 100% sure how this works, but I've heard that Stern can't remake
LOTR again due to an expired license. This isn't the case with Shrek?
Kelsey
Steve
> > HeyKeith,
Mike Stroll, Ken Fedesna, etc. ALWAYS cared about pinball. When
pinball was no longer able to support the 1500 employees at Williams,
it had to go for survival of the company, and made a reasonable effort
to make it work for 2 years longer than they probably should have from
a profit standpoint. Gary only cared about money, but talked a smooth
line sometimes when he had to.
Steve
> WOW, all I can simply say is, WOW!!!
>
> Thank you for that insight, Steve. And for all those who would post
> here about how Gary Stern does what he does because of his "passion"
> for pinball....well, here's the truth.
>
> I like to think I'm a pretty good judge of people. Give me a 5 minute
> conversation with someone and I'll tell you whether I care for them or
> not. I've never met Gary Stern and had never even seen him until last
> Expo at the banquet. It didn't take long, just watching him and his
> arrogant ego parade around the hall like we were all there to worship
> him, for me to decide what I thought of him.
>
> You, on the other hand...I walk into Lloyds, while you sit at the
> counter having lunch, and I ask Lloyd if the AH has shown up yet. I
> forget now what your response was, but I immediately knew you were the
> kind of guy I like. The rest of the day proved to be one I will not
> soon forget.
>
> Thank you for being you, Steve. :-)
>
> Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
Hey Bryan, it is good to know you, too. I had read your posts many
times before we met, so had a good idea about your level-headedness
and liked what you had to say. I knew from the moment we shook hands
that we were going to be friends. We had a good time that day at SS
Billiards, and I won't forget it ever. I learned that day that you
and Lloyd are definitely BASTARDS!
Steve
Steve
This comment comes from a man who is a KING of marketing and sales!
Drew, your web site is beautiful, your products and customer service
are superlative, and you have a way with business that Gary could
never perceive. It just seems like common sense to me. It is all
based on the golden rule: treat others as you would like to be
treated. Give full value for what you are selling. Go the extra mile
to make sure customers are happy. I have to say that there is a guy
who tried the hardest to get Gary and Stern to be good to customers,
and that is Joe Blackwell. If it hadn't been for Joe's 5-person team
putting out fires and giving customers what they wanted, Stern would
have been dead in the water long ago. Pat Powers and Chas are still
there, and they both bend over backwards to help the image of Stern
everyday. Joe had to fight tooth and nail to get Gary to listen to
him most of the time. Joe would also do what needed to be done
without Gary's approval, and sometimes Joe paid for that dearly.
Steve
Steve
Tom is a damned good marketeer, but what Stern really needs is no
Stern!
mnpinball
> > When the ship is going down, you have 2 options: repair the hole, or
> > get a bigger bucket and bail faster. The problem with the latter is
> > that eventually the bucket gets to be so big and so unwieldy that it's
> > impossible to deal with anymore. And ultimately, that is where I
> > personally feel Stern is at.
>
> > keith
> > --
> > At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
> > Maybe someday they'll return...
>
> Hey Keith,
>
> everything.
>
> Steve
Finally....
Steve
> lucid could actually take over Stern and make it work!
>
> Unfortunately, on the other hand it makes me think there is no hope for
> Stern in its current form.
>
> Thanks Steve. You'll always have a halo as far as I'm concerned. :0)
>
> --
> -cody
> --CARGPB4
>
Oh, there you go butting in again Cody! :<)) There isn't much hope
for Stern. I hope all my friends at Stern have better luck than I
have had finding a job. Things are very tight out there, especially
in the game business. We'll get through this.
Steve
Lloyd Olson
"Steve" <kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:65f0b044-2d1d-47ff...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1baa1856-389c-4c6a...@d23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Finally....
Lloyd Olson
hell. LTG :(
"Steve" <kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d3fa478e-2aac-4174...@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Steve
bills of material, but all my games have the important things still
intact, except at Stern, and even then, it worked out that we were
able to inject 90% of what we wanted to do with the games.
You are a dedicated wishful thinker, and what you believe is fine with
me, but you have no idea how people and how much money and time it
takes to make pinballs. It takes the robust sales of a game to cover
the costs involved, and Stern like most other companies, is struggling
with that. Pinball is a luxury item for the home market. Ask Jack
how his business has been doing for the last 6 months or so. I have
to be a realist. There just aren't enough new players to care about
pinball, nor are there enough new pinball buyers that can afford an
NIB pinball. It's good to be positive about it though.
Steve
Steve
a staff that I take out Doc Ock "out of respect for him" screamed 3
inches from my face. Everyone left the room.
Steve
Steve
YOU have done OK with Shrek and FG, but how about the other
distributors in the world Jack? FG and Shrek just don't mean much on
the world stage. Lots of home enthusiasts like Shrek and Family guy.
The only strength of FG and Shrek are what Pat, Lonnie, and Keith
brought to the table. How good is a total run of Shrek or WOF or WPT
compared to SM or POTC, or LOTR? Shrek, FG, and WPT are weak
licenses. Why would Gary buy weak licenses rather than strong ones?
He listened to the wrong people. He didn't listen to the best pinball
talent in the world telling him "We don't want these licenses. They
are dangerous." Gary cannot tell the difference between a good
license. I did a study once with Ray and calculated that 60% of the
games Stern built were bad licenses. It really is true. Imagine
having to build a good game around a license you hate, and know in
your experienced heart that it is a pos from the first day!
Steve
Lloyd Olson
Thank you for what you all had to go through to get Doc Ock in there. And
make a great game ! LTG :)
"Steve" <kin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:81b6c4f7-5041-48c9...@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
pinbal...@aol.com
> That must have been hell for you.
>
> Thank you for what you all had to go through to get Doc Ock in there. And
> make a great game ! �LTG :)
>
>
> news:81b6c4f7-5041-48c9...@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gary demanded stuff, never in the form of suggestion. �He demanded at
> a staff that I take out Doc Ock "out of respect for him" screamed 3
> inches from my face. �Everyone left the room.
Go back - back - Data East and Sega Pinball - who picked those titles?
A pile of crap most of them
phishrace
>
> Finally....
Enjoying the dirty laundry?
You forgot to tell Steve his game is done. HTH
-phish
Rare Hero
> Gary demanded stuff, never in the form of suggestion. He demanded at
> a staff that I take out Doc Ock "out of respect for him" screamed 3
> inches from my face. Everyone left the room.
Take out Doc Ock!? The best Spider-Man villain of all time!?!?!?
WTF!? I'm glad you won that battle. What were his reasons though?
The cost of the magnet and motor?
Greg
mnpinball
I don't enjoy anything negative or "dirty" about the decline or lack
of good things to say about pinball.
I am glad about the open forum and honesty of Steve's posts for all to
finally understand what he and others went through.
Gary V
make Golden Tee pinball.
american...@hotmail.com
> Tournament play is a good idea. Stern should get a license from IT to
> make Golden Tee pinball.
IT is going into the slot machine business. Richard Ditton was manning
their booth at the recent G2E (Global Gaming Expo) show. No Golden Tee
or Silver Strikes on display there. Just video slot and poker machines.
tomservo.mst3k
> Go back - back - Data East and Sega Pinball - who picked those titles?
> A pile of crap most of them
Really? I'm not sure, I've always kinda thought DE had a good mix
between "blockbuster" and "cult" titles. Granted, perhaps the
execution may have been hit or miss, but overall a pretty good mix of
themes...
"Blockbuster" themes (as in large production movies w/ lots of hype):
Star Wars
Jurassic Park
Robocop (heh, maybe cult...)
Back to the Future
Batman
Batman Forever
LW3
"Cult" (as in, a more limited appeal such as Stern's FGy, Sopranos,
South Park, etc)
Tales from the Crypt
Tommy
Guns 'n Roses
Rocky & Bullwinkle
Simpsons
TMNT
Certainly there are a number of licenses from the DE era that are very
questionable, and even some of the "good" themes may be lousy pins
overall, but I would never say that most of the DE titles were "piles
of crap" as you put it...
black...@skynet.be
Wow Steve, I'm surprised that things are going the way you've told at
Stern.
Ofcourse as an outsider I had a more 'idealistic' view I must admit
that.
Thanks for sharing all this information with us!
I'm glad Doc Ock is present in Spidey cause it "completes" the game.
What would Gary have wanted in the place of Dock Ock? Take away the
moving Doc Ock figurine or make it static? Seems not that respectfull
to you that he shouted "out of respect" to do something...
Was there a big difference in "design freedom" between let's say T3
and Spidey?
How do you feel about the design from 24, could it be an even better
game than Spidey?
In case I haven't said it, good luck with finding a new job! Let us
know what your next design job will be :))
TheKorn
news:VPydnaITnrDtTKfU...@skypoint.com:
> Tournaments or leagues often die a slow death, run good or not.
>
> That has been my experience. LTG :)
That may be your experience, but it runs counter to mine. CPM (
http://www.pinballmafia.net/ ) just finished its fifth year, and is so
popular we've had a waiting list to get in for two years running. We must
be doing something right. :)
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
Lloyd Olson
Pinball has been dying a slow death here for years.
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.Net> wrote in message
news:Xns9B6F7864A...@207.115.33.102...
Pinba...@gmail.com
> You have a bigger population base to draw from and more dedicated people.
> Pinball has been dying a slow death here for years.
>
>
> news:Xns9B6F7864A...@207.115.33.102...
>
>
>
> > "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in
> >news:VPydnaITnrDtTKfU...@skypoint.com:
>
> >> Tournaments or leagues often die a slow death, run good or not.
>
> >> That has been my experience. LTG :)
>
> > That may be your experience, but it runs counter to mine. CPM (
> > popular we've had a waiting list to get in for two years running. We must
> > be doing something right. :)
>
> > --
> > Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
> > web or on DVD?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steve, Thanks for your candidness and post. As an operator and
retailer I would always buy 4-6 new Stern titles for resale. I could
ALWAYS sell them to enthusiasts for a small profit when they were out
of production even if sales were slow at my retail store. It was a
guaranteed thing. Forward to games with unfinished code and you
undermine the players and or consumers confidence on a purchase. AS a
reseller/operator I cannot buy multiples of a Stern title ie Spiderman
with negativity on the NG about unfinished code. My Buyer buffer
dispappears. People research what they buy nd make comments about
reading things on the NG about code issues etc. I can directly attest
and disagree with Mr.Stern as a reseller and operator I have bought
at least 10 less Sterns NIBs due to the software issues with Sm and
WOF and this trend started for me with WPT and was magnified with Sm
and WOF. I see SM selling for several hundred dollars less on NG
while still available new from Stern doesnt instill me with
confidence. Spiderman rocks now Steve BTW Its just too late! JR
Old School Al
to test locations and why you wouldn't want to hang around them, hehe.
They used to test at Durbins on the south side and I went there to
play Elvis on test. This was my first time in this bar and while I am
playing a game I hear the sound of water falling to the ground behind
me. I figured someone must have spilled a drink and once I had a
moment to turn and see what was going on I was treated with quite a
sight. Some_extremely_drunken yahoo was too drunk to get up from the
pub table he was sitting at behind me and just whipped it out and was
pissing a fountain into the air down onto the floor! Mind you this is
about 5pm, not even dark yet! I had to evacuate the area as the river
of piss was making it's way towards me on the floor. I proceeded to
get the bartenders attention and the yahoo was promplty removed from
the establishment. As for playing pinball again I had to wait until
they had mopped and bleached the floor, sigh. Yea they choose some
primo locations for testing games.
Another location the bartender tried to rip me off (wrong change) and
most recently the latest location in Alsip was a very young blue-
collar type crowd where you could see brawl break out any minute
(thankfully I witnessed none). They would rather play that game where
you punch the boxing speed bag. Perfect choice of game for a location
where patrons are ready to punch each other out already. ;-)
So, there you have it, this is Stern's test market. Now you know the
rest of the story. :)
On Dec 6, 11:36 am, David Gersic <usenet_spam_t...@zaccaria-
pinball.com> wrote:
> > 4. A couple bars in south Chicago are a microcosm of the entire
> > world.
>
> Well, you have to test somewhere, and somewhere close to home has to be
> a lot cheaper and easier than somewhere far away. Maybe with a Pin2K type
> platform, where you could establish test locations in some major cities,
> then ship a playfield and translite to them, you could get a more
> representative test market. But given the form factor, I can't see a
> widespread testing program. And to be really useful, as you comment,
> somebody has to be at the test location observing and reporting on the
> performance of the test game on a pretty regular basis. If that's not
> being done, then the only thing you're testing for is ball hangups.
>
> > Point 1 is certainly arguable. Frankly, though, I don't see how you
> > have any clue about how much fun people are having unless you're at
> > the location watching people play the game. Guess how often this
> > happens?
>
> Points 1 and 4 go together. If you're not testing somewhere representative
> of your market, and not putting people there to see the test, then you're
> wasting an opportunity.
>
CraigC -CPM-
the extra mile.
Look at non themed games where the design team came up with the theme
and ran with it...Mostly amazing games.
Designers should pick the theme, or have a hand in securing a theme
that they would be interested in designing.
I would have loved to see a grand theft auto game back when that was
taking off.
that would have killed.
-c
cyBORG
> There are many problems with Stern. The biggest problem, by far, is
> that pinball machines do not earn enough money on location. Whatever
> the reasons for that (and there are a LOT), that is the problem that
> must be solved.
> Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
> reasons, ops just haven't taken to it. You'd be much better off with
> a newish product dedicated strictly to tournament (or at least
> primarily). People also complain that games last too long (this is
> mostly a byproduct of point 1 above and the fact that the gap between
> players of any skill (let alone good players) and casual players is
> gigantic). The natural solution to both of these problems is
> tournament bagatelle. I'm not even joking.
> keith
> --
> At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
> Maybe someday they'll return...
Agreed, but I don't enjoy bagatelle. Or that horrible video, you
monster.
-cyBORG
Pinball Life
wrote:
>
> Look at non themed games where the design team came up with the theme
> and ran with it...Mostly amazing games.
>
Terry.
As for the rest of this thread........
Ye-ow! This place is FUN again.
Terry.
Rare Hero
> Yeah, like Road Show!!! :-)
> Terry.
Gah, first Korn, now you!? Am I the only guy from Chicago that loves
Road Show!?! *grumble grumble grumble*
Greg
black...@skynet.be
What do you take to enjoy Roadshow??? :))
Josh Lehan - Krellan
> 1. Players must have 3 minute games to feel like they are getting
> their money's worth.
This is a good thing. An operator I know has ball savers set to the
maximum "freeze time" of 15 seconds... and the games earned well, even
at $1.00/play ($2.00/3)! At those prices, it's important for players
to avoid feeling like they've just been ripped off.
What pinball needs is a way to kill off the strong player without
completely ruining the game for the weak player.
As you know, pinball doesn't get any harder, the longer the game
progresses, unlike a video game. A video game can get harder and
eventually force the player to die. A pinball game can't. All a
pinball can do is make the objectives take longer to reach: more shots
required to light the same feature for the second time during the same
game. That just makes the strong player sit there longer, to grind
out the features, but the game doesn't get physically harder.
There needs to be some physical barrier in place. Maybe use gates on
the outlanes and a pop-up post in the middle to keep the ball in play
longer for weak players, then make it harder to reactivate those
features after they have been repeatedly used during a long game.
> 2. Games must have at least 3 bumpers, "Italian bottom", plunger rod,
> and a toy.
Nothing wrong with that, although I like seeing a different bottom
from time to time (although WOF's bottom was just too brutal, even
when peppered with tons of software ballsavers). And, a real plunger
rod is one of the "classic" pinball experiences that people have come
to expect. I never did like autolaunchers.
> 3. All the toys have to be seen by every player every game for them
> to feel like they are getting their money's worth.
I agree that it is too easy to bring out the toys in modern games, and
that they should be earned. But, remember how well Jurassic Park did,
when all the player needed was one shot into the saucer to activate
the dinosaur? That game was a huge seller, IIRC.
> 4. A couple bars in south Chicago are a microcosm of the entire
> world.
I wish Stern would test in more locations (mostly because I live
nowhere near south Chicago)....
> Your best shot at making games earn more is tournament. For whatever
I see pinball fading into the background, kept alive by tournaments.
This is similar to the Magic card game that was all the rage during
the late 1990's. It was mainstream for a while, then shriveled up to
a small, but dedicated, fan base, who keeps buying the new cards,
because there's money to be won at tournaments as a reward for
becoming a good player and keeping up with all the new cards.
> reasons, ops just haven't taken to it. You'd be much better off with
> a newish product dedicated strictly to tournament (or at least
> primarily). People also complain that games last too long (this is
> mostly a byproduct of point 1 above and the fact that the gap between
> players of any skill (let alone good players) and casual players is
> gigantic). The natural solution to both of these problems is
> tournament bagatelle. I'm not even joking.
I don't know about tournament bagatelle. I'd rather just play a slot
machine if I wanted something that was mostly random.
However, redemption bagatelle, now you're on to something. No
flippers, all bumpers (somewhat of a 1930's layout), loud sounds and
flashy lights everywhere to make it fun for kids, and have it spit out
tickets like crazy. Low table height, like Punchy The Clown and Bell
Ringer machines. One ball per game, one coin per game, about 15-30
seconds of game time per game. It would eat coins.
> But I've suggested that, whined about shot-based games, whined about
> 3-minute games, and countless other things and was never listened to.
> I was barely starting to make some ground on more random playfields,
> but who knows what will happen now.
Pinball needs to bring back the bounce! I never had so much fun
playing pinball as when I discovered Meteor, Pink Panther, and
Seawitch, at a late age, decades after these games had been retired
from arcades. Gottlieb's logo on their System 80 games was a bouncing
ball, around the game apron. That's what pinball is all about, in the
eyes of the public. Pinball needs to balance the risk/reward ratio
and have shots that send the ball out of control be worth more, not
less, than shots that keep the ball in control. On games like
Seawitch and Meteor, you can have the ball bounce all around, hitting
bumpers and drop targets, and it's a lot of fun. It's more fun than
just grinding out ramps and orbits that just return the ball
immediately to the flippers.
Josh
Josh Lehan - Krellan
> Stern has simply continued with the formula from the
> last pinball boom time: TAF. Complex playfield, lots
> of toys and modes. The rules might not be super deep,
> but the rules/tooling/art/sound/dots are all a major effort.
I like the deep rules. They keep a game interesting for a longer
time, which does well for the home player, and gives the game a high
resale value.
> The bagatelle aspect is minimized in return for
> predictable shots that reward the better players and
> frustrate the novice.
I heard that one of the reasons TAF was successful is that there were
shots that novices could make. Even if they couldn't aim, the ball
would eventually fall randomly into the chair and/or the swamp, and
game rewards would follow.
I do agree we need to return to the best of what made early 1980's
layouts so fun: a lot of fun bouncy shots that packed the playfield
full of features (spinners, drop targets, bumper gardens, etc.) that
randomized the ball enough to be unpredictable, and yet still be fair
enough to the player that they feel like they had a chance at having a
decent game.
> So then setting up the game to give novices a 3-minute
> game means that a decent player can tie up a game for
> a half hour or more. I love my TZ, but I know that
> a decent game will take 20 minutes plus, and some times
Pinball needs a way to have novices feel like they aren't being ripped
off, but have a way to kick good players off of the machine quicker.
With just software and setup tweaks, you can't fix one problem without
exacerbating the other problem. I think pinball needs to have some
kind of self-adjusting physical difficulty, perhaps having to do with
the flipper gap, outlane post position, table steepness (I'm dreaming
here, but a self-leveling table would go a long way towards solving
this problem, and simplify setup for the operator as well).
> meant to Keith, but I think it's generally a negative having huge
> numbers of modes and rules that are so deep that most players
> will never even know that they are there. Having SOME deep
I like TSPP, because I know that I'll probably never see all of the
game. Just the other day, I was watching somebody play on location,
and they got something I had never seen before. If I buy another game
for home use, it will probably be TSPP, simply because of the depth,
and the challenge of the game (it's a great game for practicing skills
at home).
> entertained. It's the CHANCE of a big win, or RANDOM
> events offering surprises that can keep players coming
> back, not the same (albeit complex) game rules. Almost
Have you seen British fruit machines?
There's a huge depth of rules in many of those games, with its own
specialized vocabulary for talking about things that happen in the
games. It reminded me of pinball, to see the subculture of players
who enjoy the machines, and all the specialized terms that are used
when discussing what to do for best odds of winning in those games.
But, a casual player can still hit the button and just spin all the
reels like an American slot machine, not caring about the depth of
play possibilities that are eventually reachable, and they will still
enjoy a (much smaller) chance of winning. British fruit machines have
successfully came up with a play design that appeals to both the
serious and casual player.
Also, British fruit machines PAY OUT. Pinball should bring this
back! If payout can't be completely legalized, do so in a backdoor
way (give out tickets for redemption, have more tournament high score
slots that give more people a chance to collect winnings, and so on).
> The last pinball machine boom (i.e. TAF) came as a welcomed
> surprise to the manufacturers, but that run is over.
The DMD, with full graphics display, was sufficiently different that
it made all previous games with text-only displays look obsolete.
That was the reason for the boom.
Pinball can't continue with the DMD today, though, which is ugly and
monochrome... like a 1990's cell phone, but bigger!
At a minimum, pinball needs a color LED display, stretched to fill the
entire black area of the backbox, where the speakers and DMD and wood
framing currently are. The resolution doesn't need to be increased by
a lot, and in fact, that would distract from the pinball and increase
artist costs too much. Just make it color and bigger, and that will
go a long way towards getting people to look at pinball machines
again.
> 1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout. Every game should
> have objectives that can only be reached by random motion of
> the ball. Being able to shoot at every objective is great for
Have you played Nine Ball? Fantastic game, and it is what you
described.
> 2) Modes suck. Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW.
I disagree about shallow rules. I like deep rules. I agree that the
game should begin with shallow rules, though, so new players don't
feel like they've accomplished nothing during the game. TSPP is one
of the worst for these: 99% of games end where nothing at all happens:
no features at all, "what the heck was that". It's the 1% that makes
it all worthwhile, though! Unfortunately, many players will be
discouraged and leave, long before they stick around long enough to
see that 1% game.
> A ticket dispenser is an easy addition, but don't base tickets
> just on score.
Ticket-spitting pinball would make more sense if the machine were set
to 1 ball per game. Convert extra balls and free games to ticket
awards. Give out tickets at multiples of scores (every 1M points
would be a good milestone), with a fixed maximum of tickets per play.
> Put some giveaway toys INSIDE the machine, to be dispensed
> to the winners. SC gave away tokens - do the same with prize
> capsules or some such.
I don't think there's physical room for this.
However, I loved the gumball dispensers that had a (pure mechanical)
pinball table in them. Your gumball was the pinball! If you shot the
gumball successfully into a certain gobble hole, you got more
additional gumballs dispensed to you.
> 4) Modernize the package. Dump the DMD, streamline the mechanical
> layout and cut free from the fold-down backbox/detachable metal legs
> package that brands the current product as "old fashioned". Make
> pinball machines as easy to move and set up as a stand-up video game.
I don't think I'd want to see a commercial pinball machine that's too
easy to move. I've heard of pinball machines being stolen outright
from some locations! Wouldn't want to make that easier.
> Integrate an LCD at the rear of the playfield like CV, but bigger.
> No need any more for translites. Make either generic or changeable
> sideart, so that new game playfield kits are practical.
Convertible playfield/translite/ROM kits are something that should be
sold. Williams tried this with Congo, but it wasn't successful. I'm
not sure of exact details why.
A convertible cabinet would allow more money to be spent on the
cabinet, if it were reusable for multiple game titles. I'd love to
see better coin slots that don't jam, better tilt sensors that don't
fall off, hinged playfield glass for easy service of stuck balls,
smart regulated power supply, up-armoring of the wood just underneath
the cashbox area, and all the other good ideas that have been proposed
but dismissed because they would increase cabinet cost.
> 5) Centralize and standardize high scores. Normalize scores
> on all games so that personal high scores can be compared
> across all machines. I have an idea of how this could be
BAD idea, sorry. A pinball machine is extremely variable: tilt
tightness, slope, level, flipper power, waxiness of playfield, line
voltage on location, and so on. High scores are not comparable across
pinball machines! Even tightly controlled ideal environments where
the games are under constant maintenance, such as the tournament area
at a Pinball Expo tournament, has trouble keeping multiple copies of
the same machine playing identically.
> is that players could compete worldwide for high scores
> (or other objectives) and the factory can sponsor prizes,
> free games, whatever. It would build a huge fan base
> of returning customers, loyal to the brand.
Until one of those fans decides to buy their own machine and submit
their next score with the glass removed....
Josh