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EM TECH: GOTTLIEB HOT SHOT - GAME STARTS BEFORE PLAYER 1 SCORE REELS ARE ZEROED... HELP!!
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croonerguy
Jul 28, 2012, 4:26:19 PM7/28/12
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Hey Gang,
I've spent months now trying to figure this out, and so I am reaching out yet again to see if anyone can help figure this out...
The Gottlieb Hot Shot I'm working on starts playing without all of the Player 1 score reels zeroing first. The Player 2 reels all reset fine, and the Player 1 10K reel zeroes, but the Player 1 10, 100 and 1000 reels only advance by digit and then the game starts anyway (ball kicks out, flippers work, scoring works, etc.)
I have cleaned, checked, adjusted, and re-checked everything I can think of. All of the Player 1 score reels switches are clean and adjusted exactly the same as the Player 2 reels, which are all resetting correctly.
So, what wiring or switch problem is it that could allow the game to start without the Player 1 reels all resetting to zero?
It's driving me nuts. HELP!! I'd really appreciate it!
I've spent months now trying to figure this out, and so I am reaching out yet again to see if anyone can help figure this out...
The Gottlieb Hot Shot I'm working on starts playing without all of the Player 1 score reels zeroing first. The Player 2 reels all reset fine, and the Player 1 10K reel zeroes, but the Player 1 10, 100 and 1000 reels only advance by digit and then the game starts anyway (ball kicks out, flippers work, scoring works, etc.)
I have cleaned, checked, adjusted, and re-checked everything I can think of. All of the Player 1 score reels switches are clean and adjusted exactly the same as the Player 2 reels, which are all resetting correctly.
So, what wiring or switch problem is it that could allow the game to start without the Player 1 reels all resetting to zero?
It's driving me nuts. HELP!! I'd really appreciate it!
Garry
Jul 28, 2012, 9:27:40 PM7/28/12
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Check the switches at P1 on the player unit. Does player 1 score
correctly during game play?
--
Garry
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croonerguy
Jul 29, 2012, 11:01:46 AM7/29/12
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Hi Garry,
All the player unit switches are clean and seem to be adjusted correctly...
Player 1 does score correctly during gameplay. Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Trevor
All the player unit switches are clean and seem to be adjusted correctly...
Player 1 does score correctly during gameplay. Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Trevor
croonerguy
Jul 29, 2012, 2:07:10 PM7/29/12
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Hey Garry,
Just to be sure, which switch stack on the player unit is P1 - closest to the playfield (toward the front) or closest to the back?
Cheers,
Trevor
Just to be sure, which switch stack on the player unit is P1 - closest to the playfield (toward the front) or closest to the back?
Cheers,
Trevor
Garry
Jul 29, 2012, 5:53:06 PM7/29/12
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P1 is closest to the back. Seeing as player 1 scores correctly the P1
switch stack would appear to be ok. Isn't Hot Shot a 4 player? I noticed
you don't mention the player 3 and 4 reels.
croonerguy
Jul 29, 2012, 6:49:06 PM7/29/12
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Yeah, sorry about that. I meant "Big Shot" - it's the 2-player version of "Hot Shot". I always get the name mixed up.
Is it possible that something is shorting out the entire continuity circuit that checks for the Player 1 zeroes switch? If so, at what point could that happen?
Is it possible that something is shorting out the entire continuity circuit that checks for the Player 1 zeroes switch? If so, at what point could that happen?
Garry
Jul 30, 2012, 5:27:01 AM7/30/12
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Gottlieb 2 players of this vintage will reset the player 1 score reels
via the P3 switch stack. Take a long hard look at this. Not just the
switch blades, but also the solder tabs. As always, tighten the switch
stack screws before adjusting anything. Having said that, the fact that
one reel resets correctly points to score reel switch issues. The score
reel middle switch should be closed at every position except zero, and
the outside switch should be open at every position except zero. I know
you said that you checked and checked again, but go back and have
another look. Good luck.
croonerguy
Jul 30, 2012, 10:51:17 AM7/30/12
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Thanks a lot Garry! I'll take a look tonight and let you know how it goes!
Cheers,
Trevor
Cheers,
Trevor
croonerguy
Jul 31, 2012, 7:13:05 PM7/31/12
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Hey Garry,
It looks like I won't have time to look at it until this weekend... I'd appreciate you keeping an eye on this thread and I'll let you know what happens.
I really appreciate your help.
Cheers,
Trevor
It looks like I won't have time to look at it until this weekend... I'd appreciate you keeping an eye on this thread and I'll let you know what happens.
I really appreciate your help.
Cheers,
Trevor
Garry
Jul 31, 2012, 8:44:14 PM7/31/12
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No worries, I'll stay tuned. I'm keen to see a good result. The more I
think about this, the more inclined I am to suspect that the problem is
at P3 on the player unit. I don't have a schematic for your game, but
here's how it works on other 2 players from the 70s:
Player 1 10s reel is reset via P3A
Player 1 100s reel is reset via P3B
Player 1 1000s reel is reset via P3C
Player 1 10000s reel is reset via P3D
"A" is closest to the cam wheel.
There is also a switch at motor 1A in the circuit, but it's the same
switch that resets player 2, so it should be fine.
croonerguy
Aug 5, 2012, 4:57:14 PM8/5/12
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Hey Garry,
I took a close look at P3 (all switches) and they're all clean and only closing (bending their sister switch leaves slightly)when they're at the cam tooth position(except for P3E, which is open). I also checked all of the Player 1 score reels, and they're all clean and functioning in the manner you described... middle switch closed at all times except at 0 and outside switch (closest to the metal housing)open except at 0, and they're all adjusted properly.
I'm wondering if you might let me have your email address? There's an attachment I'd like to send you that may help you in helping me with this.
Perhaps I should also have mentioned that the guy I'm trying to fix this machine for said it was working fine until some other repair person was doing some work in the main cabinet... perhaps an accidental short or mis-adjustment of one of the player relays, or an other switch in the reset bank? Anyway, more information to consider.
Again, I really appreciate your help in trying to figure this out!
Cheers,
Trevor
I took a close look at P3 (all switches) and they're all clean and only closing (bending their sister switch leaves slightly)when they're at the cam tooth position(except for P3E, which is open). I also checked all of the Player 1 score reels, and they're all clean and functioning in the manner you described... middle switch closed at all times except at 0 and outside switch (closest to the metal housing)open except at 0, and they're all adjusted properly.
I'm wondering if you might let me have your email address? There's an attachment I'd like to send you that may help you in helping me with this.
Perhaps I should also have mentioned that the guy I'm trying to fix this machine for said it was working fine until some other repair person was doing some work in the main cabinet... perhaps an accidental short or mis-adjustment of one of the player relays, or an other switch in the reset bank? Anyway, more information to consider.
Again, I really appreciate your help in trying to figure this out!
Cheers,
Trevor
croonerguy
Aug 5, 2012, 5:06:54 PM8/5/12
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Hey Garry,
A new problem has also cropped up... the machine has started suddenly and inexplicably started switching to "Player 2" in the middle of Player 1's ball, sometimes even when playing a 1-player-only game. Yikes! Any thoughts? Think they could be related problems?
Cheers,
Trevor
A new problem has also cropped up... the machine has started suddenly and inexplicably started switching to "Player 2" in the middle of Player 1's ball, sometimes even when playing a 1-player-only game. Yikes! Any thoughts? Think they could be related problems?
Cheers,
Trevor
Garry
Aug 5, 2012, 6:18:48 PM8/5/12
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Hey Trevor,
Your two issues could be related. In both cases the player unit seems to
be advancing to player two prematurely. I'm thinking 2nd player relay
but without a schematic I'm getting into uncharted territory. Hopefully
this is the attachment you want to send me.
Cheers
Garry
rover68(at)optusnet(dot)com(dot)au
Garry
Aug 6, 2012, 6:20:17 AM8/6/12
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Ok. Firstly, I need to correct what I said earlier. Score reels are
reset via motor 1A AND motor 4A. 1A resets the 1000s and 10000s, and 4A
resets the 10s and 100s. Worth a look.
When you press the start button, S relay starts the motor, and because
P3E is closed, the player unit steps to the player 1 reset position.
Then the P3A/B/C/D close and P3E opens. Theoretically, the player unit
cannot advance to the player 2 reset position (one more step) until all
player 1 score reels zero, or P3E closes. Manually advance the player
unit until P3 is riding on the cam. There should a fair sized gap at
P3E. If the gap is too small, or the solder tabs are bent and almost
touching, there could be an arc which steps the player unit prematurely.
Check that the strips of insulating paper between the switches are
intact.
Still no joy? Have a look at the switches at motor 1A. The inside switch
resets the score reels and the second switch advances the player unit.
If these two are shorted the player unit could step up before reset is
complete. Same deal with the solder tabs and the insulating paper.
Coincidentally, this could be the cause of your second problem, causing
the player unit to advance when the score motor runs.
As always, tighten the switch stack screws before touching anything
else.
croonerguy
Aug 6, 2012, 11:29:08 AM8/6/12
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Hey Garry,
Awesome information, thank you! Now I have something that I can make sense of to go on. I'll let you know how it goes asap.
By the looks of your email address, I'm guessing your an Aussie... G'day! I'm a Canuck, so we've got a good 14 hour or so time difference between us.
Thanks again Garry, I'll keep you posted.
Cheers,
Trevor
Awesome information, thank you! Now I have something that I can make sense of to go on. I'll let you know how it goes asap.
By the looks of your email address, I'm guessing your an Aussie... G'day! I'm a Canuck, so we've got a good 14 hour or so time difference between us.
Thanks again Garry, I'll keep you posted.
Cheers,
Trevor
croonerguy
Aug 6, 2012, 3:41:35 PM8/6/12
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Hey Garry,
No joy I'm afraid... I tried everything you suggested, and now not even the Player 1 10K reel is resetting now (it was the only P1 reel resetting before).
I'm going to send you couple of videos I just took of the reset sequence, maybe they can tell you something if you can see what it's actually doing. And the twitchy Player 1 switching to Player 2 thing is still going on.
I hope I don't break your brain!
Cheers Mate,
Trevor
No joy I'm afraid... I tried everything you suggested, and now not even the Player 1 10K reel is resetting now (it was the only P1 reel resetting before).
I'm going to send you couple of videos I just took of the reset sequence, maybe they can tell you something if you can see what it's actually doing. And the twitchy Player 1 switching to Player 2 thing is still going on.
I hope I don't break your brain!
Cheers Mate,
Trevor
croonerguy
Aug 6, 2012, 4:56:21 PM8/6/12
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Hey Garry,
Those vids are on their way to you via Dropbox.
I thought I should document exactly what I did in response to your tips...
Tightened and checked 1A and 4A switches, clean and opening and closing properly with good gaps. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
Tightened P3 switch stack. P3E is closed with good contact in reset position, open with good gap when not standing on the cam. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
Tightened P3A/B/C/D. All are all open in reset position with good gaps, closing with good connection when on the cam. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
(now that P1 10K reel isn't resetting now)...
Tightened 100K switch stack. Cleaned contacts. Fish paper is good. Both switches fully open with good gap. One switch only closes on "9", the other only closes on "0). Wire was detached from "0" lug, re-soldered. Also noticed that there is no wire attached to the "1" lug, even though the schematic seems to indicate a wire should be connected (if I'm reading it properly). Possible contributing factor? However, I believe that the 0-9 lugs are just for the match feature. Anyway, it still doesn't reset after re-soldering the wire.
SHOULD there be another wire attached to the 1 lug, by the way?
Anyway, that's the detailed description of work. As always, I thank you for your your help and advice (and moral support!).
Cheers,
Trevor
Those vids are on their way to you via Dropbox.
I thought I should document exactly what I did in response to your tips...
Tightened and checked 1A and 4A switches, clean and opening and closing properly with good gaps. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
Tightened P3 switch stack. P3E is closed with good contact in reset position, open with good gap when not standing on the cam. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
Tightened P3A/B/C/D. All are all open in reset position with good gaps, closing with good connection when on the cam. No apparent shorted lugs or wires. Fish paper is good.
(now that P1 10K reel isn't resetting now)...
Tightened 100K switch stack. Cleaned contacts. Fish paper is good. Both switches fully open with good gap. One switch only closes on "9", the other only closes on "0). Wire was detached from "0" lug, re-soldered. Also noticed that there is no wire attached to the "1" lug, even though the schematic seems to indicate a wire should be connected (if I'm reading it properly). Possible contributing factor? However, I believe that the 0-9 lugs are just for the match feature. Anyway, it still doesn't reset after re-soldering the wire.
SHOULD there be another wire attached to the 1 lug, by the way?
Anyway, that's the detailed description of work. As always, I thank you for your your help and advice (and moral support!).
Cheers,
Trevor
Garry
Aug 7, 2012, 10:52:06 PM8/7/12
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Hey Trevor,
I got the videos. Thanks. I think we should proceed one step at a time
to avoid multiple variables.
What I see is the player 1 10k reel rotating continuously throughout the
reset sequence. Let's talk about the wire you resoldered to the "0" lug.
I'm assuming that you mean the lug on the circuit board on the side of
the reel. If you look at the schematic at column E, row 7,you will see
the player 1 ten thousands unit. Note that there are no connections to
the 0 and 1 positions. I don't know where that wire goes, but I'm
confident that it doesn't go where you put it. There should be a wire
attached to the "C" lug, or it could belong to one of the two switches
at the top rear of the unit. Send me a photo if you are not sure.
Cheers
Garry
p.s. No you haven't broken my brain, but it is starting to throb a
little.
croonerguy
Aug 7, 2012, 11:16:41 PM8/7/12
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Hey Garry,
I'm afraid that I won't have any tinkering time until Saturday because of my personal schedule. I sing in a Jazz quintet and we're rehearsing for a gig on Thursday... but I'll be back at it as soon as that's all over if you can hang in there. The good news is that your brain can rest for a day or two.
A thousand thanks for your ongoing expertise and friendship.
Cheers,
Trevor
I'm afraid that I won't have any tinkering time until Saturday because of my personal schedule. I sing in a Jazz quintet and we're rehearsing for a gig on Thursday... but I'll be back at it as soon as that's all over if you can hang in there. The good news is that your brain can rest for a day or two.
A thousand thanks for your ongoing expertise and friendship.
Cheers,
Trevor
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