Got to Play Iron Man Last Night...(Warning - Long)
Dale Smola
CPL (Chicago Pinball League) to come to the plant and be part of a
focus group and review the new IM game. Gary was there, along with the
game designers, and sales and marketing people. We were allowed to
play the games for a while. Then they fed us pizza and soft drinks.
This was followed by an open discussion/Q & A about the game and Stern
In general. Then we could go back and play some more. Total time was
about 2 1/2 hours. They were going to analyze the audits after we
left.
The Game - short version:
1) Games were running 0.7 software. Looked somewhat more finished than
the 0.5 on test games I saw.
2) For a game that appears simple and straightforward at first, it is
quite capable of handing you your head on a platter. The magnet in
front of Iron Monger is brutal. Since you have to hit him 6 times to
start the Iron Monger multiball, the magnet has 6 chances to send you
straight to the outlanes, or SDTM. The kickback in the upper left is
VERY fast. It feeds to the right flipper, but there is no hold of the
ball, and it comes back at what seems twice the speed of going in.
3) Games as shipped have white flippers and red flipper rubbers. John
said this was probably going to be standard from now on.
4) The ramps are steep. Sloppy shots don't make it up. I can see that
being an issue as flippers wear.
On the whole, I like it.
Other interesting bits of imformation:
1) At least one other focus group was done, the attendees there were
coin-op people. Different perspective, different needs.
2) Test games on location are earning well. BBH and IM test games both
earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this is
that they are moving in the right direction.
3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
the highly skilled player. The idea being that shorter ball times for
high skill players makes for faster turn around on location.I can
testify it works as a great equalizer. This is going to be an ongoing
design consideration, adding a degree of randomness.
4) We were asked how miuch we pay attention to the DMD graphics during
play. They are very time consuming to create. The answer was split.
The player himself is mostly "head down" and not watching except when
the ball is held, or at end of ball, to see how he is doing. On the
other hand, as was the case last night, anyone watching, the player is
very much interested in the graphics, as a means to learn how to play
the game, and figure out the rules.
5) Going back to the old skinny side rails was a cost cutting move.
Saves about $10 a game. But, Stern is or will be offereng a separate
flipper protector piece, that can be added on. Someone asked if it
would retrofit older games. Gary said he was 99% sure it would.
6) Some consideration to maintaining in the field was shown in
playfield design.The ramps are high up, with a lot of clearance under
them. You should be able to wipe down the playfield or adjust a switch
without having to remove the ramps.
7) We were asked if we thought a credit card swipe as an option istead
of a DBV was useful. Answer, no. Hassels and cost of processing too
much work. But, the discussion went around to paying for games by
texting. Text to a number, and the game gets a credit. Younger
audiences are familiar with paying for things that way. Gary said it
was something worth considering, but Stern has no inhouse expertese at
this point to figure out how to make that work right now. Future
consideration. Also being considered is how to improve the Tournament
system to have more locations take part in a single tournament. Like X-
Box on line gaming. Again, something a younger audience is familiar
with.
9) The idea was brought up of allowing us to have a league night at
Stern. (This might be because Lyman is in our league.) It's possible.
10) There was dicussion about the design "showing more to the player
up front". The casual player with 30 second ball times, never sees
most of the good stuff. There are trying to find a way to show more up
front, while maintaining interest to the skilled player, who wants
cool stuff further in. Not an easy thing.
The bottom line of all this that I think is important, is that Stern
is now making an effort to get audience opinion, and listen to its
customers. Your opinion now counts, or at the least can be heard. I
find that encouraging. I'm not aware that they have held these focus
groups in the past. They intend to have these gatherings before each
new game is released. I would imagine the invited groups to be
different each time, to get more variety of opinion.
Dale Smola
ldnayman
> 10) There was dicussion about the design "showing more to the player
> up front". The casual player with 30 second ball times, never sees
> most of the good stuff. There are trying to find a way to show more up
> front, while maintaining interest to the skilled player, who wants
> cool stuff further in. Not an easy thing.
It's not that tough. Williams pulled this off all the time.
Dr_Gonzo
Good info, thanks for posting.
Craig C
incentive to get better or play better next game to get to something
you haven't seen.
IMHO pins that have a lot of games within games have better longevity.
you can play it many different ways to get to something cool.
-c
mr tobias
Ok, so Gary Stern wants to save $10 per game by going back to the old
style side rails at the expense of allowing unsightly wear to occur
round the flipper buttons. He wants owners to fork out for protectors
as an extra instead. In my view this is not acceptable given the
historical high price of the games, and such penny pinching just
doesn't go down well with me for one.
How much will these protectors cost Stern? Maybe $3 or $2 a set,
especially if produced in bulk. The solution is to provide them with
machines in the accessories pack, free of charge, and owners can fit
them as they wish. Stern still saves a few $ per machine and doesn't
alienate those of us who regard this as a retrograde step.
Craig C
Joe S
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think it is great that Stern is still making pins and is serious
enough about appeasing seasoned players to have a focus group give
them feedback. It's good to hear the two new games are showing some
earning potential for ops too.
I don't have any problem with Stern taking costs out of the machines
that don't affect the overall game experience. Manufacturing costs
continue to rise but most customers aren't willing to pay the extra
price to offset these costs. So what if a collector has to spend 10
bucks on cab protectors.....in home use, they wouldn't likely be
needed anyway. 2 or 3 bucks in cost savings doesn't sound like much
but there are thousands of parts in a pinball machine. Stern has done
well releasing collector ediditions of their most popular games too
for folks that want to spend the extra money. Now they can add metal
aprons and cab protectors as part of the upgraded editions!
I look forward to playing Iron Man someday soon. I like the fact that
the magnets add to the randomness that is missing from many modern
Stern machines. I don't want every game in my line up to take 45
minutes to play personally.
Koz Pinlicious
> Yep, and if the game shows everything too easy then whats the
> incentive to get better or play better next game to get to something
> you haven't seen.
>
> IMHO pins that have a lot of games within games have better longevity.
> you can play it many different ways to get to something cool.
your changing words around...
no-one is showing *everything* and making it too easy, just that you
need great front end candy to hook new players who may only go a few
minutes a play.
Koz Pinlicious
then don't buy the game. wms stopped doing this in the early 90's and
people were fine with it ;-)
>
> How much will these protectors cost Stern? Maybe $3 or $2 a set,
> especially if produced in bulk. The solution is to provide them with
> machines in the accessories pack, free of charge, and owners can fit
> them as they wish. Stern still saves a few $ per machine and doesn't
> alienate those of us who regard this as a retrograde step.
your personal wants don't change any math in this situation. I want to
be able to *play* pinball, I don't care if it comes with less armor.
Brian
Williams also had 3x the people and 3x the time and 2x the budget.
They are also 100% out of business.
mnpinball
2) Test games on location are earning well. BBH and IM test games
both
earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this
is
that they are moving in the right direction.
LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
but shorter ball times DO affect the cash box. Hard to sell an op a
CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
>3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
the highly skilled player. The idea being that shorter ball times for
high skill players makes for faster turn around on location.I can
testify it works as a great equalizer. This is going to be an ongoing
design consideration, adding a degree of randomness.
I agree on this, plus magnets are cool and fun.
Nice write up Dale. Thanks ! ;-)
J
jimjim66
increase, but the more they cut, the closer they get to having a
reputation as selling cheap inferior stuff.
No DMD graphics, skinny side rails, and plastic aprons, are a step
backwards. Usually prices go up on items when there is innovation
that justifies it, with pinball machines the quality is going down,
but the prices are still climbing.
Maybe Stern and Distributors can start "customizing" pins for
consumers. Example: placing orders for collectors/home owners. Side
rails, shaker motors, metal aprons, extra playfield clear coat etc...
Obviously, I wish and think they should be standard on a machine, but
if not I would like the opportunity to order one with these options
coming from the factory. Just like buying a car, or many other items
in life we purchase.
I realize pins didn't have DMD graphics in the 80's and before, but
that was over 20 years ago. I can't imagine car companies not
offering cd/mp3/satellite music players in their cars to go for a more
retro feel. Not a good call.
c2
>
> 4) We were asked how miuch we pay attention to the DMD graphics during
> play. They are very time consuming to create. The answer was split.
> The player himself is mostly "head down" and not watching except when
> the ball is held, or at end of ball, to see how he is doing. On the
> other hand, as was the case last night, anyone watching, the player is
> very much interested in the graphics, as a means to learn how to play
> the game, and figure out the rules.
>
I think its fantastic that Stern is soliciting feedback. I find this
item pretty interesting. I recall listening to Gary talk a year or so
ago, and recall being left with the impression that he hates the DMD and
would like to remove it altogether. This question seems to be exploring
that further.
IMO, you can't go backwards in this area. My preference aside,
experience with non-pinball people in my own gameroom shows that the DMD
pins get tons more play than the non-DMD variety. So much so that I've
gotten rid of all my 80s pins.
The other cost saving directions are NBD compared to this one.
Dale Smola
> no-one is showing *everything* and making it too easy, just that you
> need great front end candy to hook new players who may only go a few
> minutes a play.
>
This is a better description of what was meant than my original post.
The meaning was not to show everything up front, but have more up
front, as well as the back, to handle both types of players.
Dale Smola.
RazerX
uses all that real estate or you could perhaps make the backbox
smaller and not have such a big monitor. The monitor should display
graphics based on gameplay (e.g. display the Monger getting hit when
player hits the pf toy with the ball). Combine that with a shaker
motor and that's quite a player experience.
Rob
Lloyd Olson
them on.
9) - League play at Stern won't encourage location play. I don't know how
many ops in the Chicago area buy pins, but if Stern moves into competition
with them, could back fire huge. LTG :)
"Dale Smola" <da...@dalespinballs.com> wrote in message
news:d195a624-dce3-42e3...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...
firepower
that was a gimme in two games and asked me to turn it off. Have the
same solution on IM and future Stern games, a way to see the toy early
(on 2nd or 3rd Ball) for a no-hoper. I agree this is needed "eye candy"
- and encourages a newbie to drop more coin.
Once a better player begins to qualify quickly for the "toy multiball"
the game figures that out and doesn't award that player a consolation.
A couple of registers and not too much programming. If you do that, the
operator probably won't ever turn it off completely. Still could put an
option in the game feature adjustments as they did on LOTR for home users.
I "play tested" WPT at Stern and found it was confusing, way too
complicated rules. And I knew how to play Texas Holdem! If the ruleset
had been better, the game could have been a winner. Never bought one.
They had a digital video cam above the playfield to film the playfield,
so getting customer feedback isn't new at Stern. Paying attention to it
might be.
-Richard
phishrace
> Ok, so Gary Stern wants to save $10 per game by going back to the old
> style side rails at the expense of allowing unsightly wear to occur
> round the flipper buttons. He wants owners to fork out for protectors
> as an extra instead. In my view this is not acceptable given the
> historical high price of the games, and such penny pinching just
> doesn't go down well with me for one.
Out of all that, you chose to get pissed about missing armor? Wow. Way
to focus on the really important stuff.
> How much will these protectors cost Stern? Maybe $3 or $2 a set,
> especially if produced in bulk. The solution is to provide them with
> machines in the accessories pack, free of charge, and owners can fit
> them as they wish. Stern still saves a few $ per machine and doesn't
> alienate those of us who regard this as a retrograde step.
If they were smart, they'd just add (.005) mylar protectors at the
factory. That's what I prefer. Armor covers up art and thick mylar
protects just fine.
Thanks for the update Dale. Not sure if I'd want to play league in
front of the folks that make the games. Did anyone shove a game?
(sorry Gary! d:^\)
-phish
wesley
Thank you Dale for posting such a detailed and interesting
description! I certainly hope Stern survives and thrives as I don't
want to imagine there being no major pinball manufacturers.
I do wish Stern would do some more family friendly themes as CSI, 24,
and many recent releases haven't been. My kids and I would love to
see a Harry Potter pinball, but I assume the license to do that would
cost too much.
The former local distributor quit selling Sterns because they weren't
selling for three reasons he believes: except for a few notable
exceptions, the games weren't seen by customers as that interesting
especially with Willams and Bally games right next to them almost
always for less $. Secondly, he sells to lots of families and many
of the recent themes haven't appealed to kids and families with kids.
The one notable exception is the Family Guy pin seen as adult oriented
and then converted to a kid/family friendly when changed to Shrek.
Similiar games with different themes, graphics and audio/visuals to
appeal to different audiences. I wonder if this is a reasonable
option--future release of pins with one being more for adults and an
indentical playfied rethemed for families/kids? The 3rd reason is
that people could come into his store , find a Stern they like, and
then go on-line and find a lower price, even though his price includes
warranties, delivery, and local service, many said they prefer the
absolute lowest price on a new machine. Probably the final straw was
when Stern announced they had struck a deal to sell machines through
Costco. Now he is only selling used pinballs and is doing quite
well. If I ever decide to purchase a new Stern, I can't do it through
a local distributor. I've heard this from other pinball fans.
I realize Stern is selling to a much diffferent market, economy, and
customer than they and the other manufacturers used to. I hope
Ironman and future releases sell well and that they make many great
pins.
Wesley
mr tobias
>
> - Show quoted text -
As someone pointed out, the Williams' ink didn't wear off as easily as
Stern's does, even though admittedly there were problems with peeling
decals on wpc machines. Wear around the flipper buttons does not help
residual values of machines, which is a factor for operators,
particularly if return on investment is marginal.
It's not about my personal 'wants' but more about the danger of
creating a perception of building cheaper looking/feeling products at
the same or higher cost to the buyer. I'm not suggesting cutting the
siderails in itself will be the pivot point on which a decision to buy
or not buy a game will rest, but it's a contributory factor if
accompanied by several other apparent cutbacks. I offered a
constructive solution to this, which would probably still give Stern
benefits without any damage.
If you want to *play* pinball, as most of us do, suggesting people
don't buy the game is the last thing Stern needs.
phishrace
> No DMD graphics, skinny side rails, and plastic aprons, are a step
> backwards.
None of those things affect gameplay.
Indy has spectacular graphics, a steel apron and is fully armored.
Horrible game. A plastic apron might even help.
-phish
Craig C
really enjoy playing BBH. If STERN keeps going that route i'll be
happy.
It would be cool to see a game like funhouse or bk2k that taunt the
player more.
The thing i miss most are games with subway ramps. It would enable
more varied layouts.
-c
c2
Agree. But conversely, take a great game like LOTR, remove the steel
apron and you still have a killer game. Remove the DMD and you've take
away a significant part of what makes the game so great.
Craig C
objectives can be clearly and cleverly communicated to the player?
The bad thing about a monitor is that instead of someone doing dot
matrix art you'll have to have someone do full motion video.
-c
jar155
There's something that they can do that would be VERY simple and I
think it would encourage more money to be dropped into the cash box.
Here me out on this...
There's an arcade game, X-Men: Children of the Atom. It's a fighting
game, like Street Fighter. When you lose, during the continue screen,
the game tells you how to do a special move for the character you've
been using. It will have the countdown going, and at the same time it
shows that if you do a certain button combination your character will
do a special attack. Now, if during the match sequence they had a
voice call say, "hey, you want to start multiball? Just hit the
(specify shot) 3 times!" while showing a image on the screen where the
shot is and having the inserts in the area flash. Something simple
like that might get someone to think about one more game, just to see
if they can do it. Maybe in that next game they hit it twice, so
they're compelled to try once more. After they start multiball, maybe
it lasts a few seconds and they drain, but they thrill of the
multiball encourages them to earn the mode again. The game should be
smart enough to then change the call and say, "You want to hit a
jackpot? Start multiball and then hit this shot for huge points!".
They could make it escalate 3-4 levels and pretty soon you've trained
your players on how to play the game and they'll figure out on the
more advanced stuff on their own and before you know it they've played
6-7 games rather than one.
Do it, Stern.
Adm56
>
> - Show quoted text -
One thing that may do this easily…Is Iron Monger ‘up’ when in attract
mode? On CV he’s up but then sinks down when the game starts…gives
people an incentive to get him to come out again. Now granted on
defaults it’s REALLY easy on CV (one WoW hit) but it still gives you a
nice glimpse of the toys.
David Gersic
> 3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
> design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
> the highly skilled player.
Excelent. The Ball Is Wild again.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| A PBS mind in an MTV world. |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
David Gersic
> Ok, so Gary Stern wants to save $10 per game by going back to the old
> style side rails at the expense of allowing unsightly wear to occur
> round the flipper buttons.
Good! That's $10 on the Bill Of Materials that can be spent on something
else.
> He wants owners to fork out for protectors
> as an extra instead.
Wants? Where did you read that? He's allowing for it, for the anal retentive
collector that has to have a perfect cabinet. Most people won't care.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| What if Kuwait's cheif export had been Brocolli? |
John
animations represent a fair amount of cost, but I have to admit I love
the animations. I wonder if the DMD cost is in the creativity or
the actual programming. I would have presumed most of it was in the
creativity side, but I've been wrong before and not afraid to admit
it. I wonder if changing the DMD to a full color display would allow
the use of better development tool kits and produce more compelling
video-game like complimentary play in faster cycles.
I do think an innovation to couple game play with graphics more
visible to the player would be an awesome add.
I have to admit as said before (and above in this thread) I'm looking
for a platform change that allows one cabinet as the platform to
support multiple pf's. I just imagine in the current state of the
business that kind of investment may be prohibitive. IMHO, I'd be
up for buying a new pf kit every 3-6 months.
All of my feedback has to do with the home market, as I don't have the
lifestyle that supports the time needed to play pins in the wild (at
least with the current location distances from my home).
Whatever the outcome, your email has helped my perception of Stern's
desire to please and balance both markets. Thanks!
machine.slave
With regards to point #10.. why not have a difficulty setting before
starting your game? Motordome (yes, Motordome..) had a great feature
that let you choose a easy, medium or hard difficulty setting at the
start of the game which totally changed the rules around. I thought
it was a very innovative idea. (Was this tried in other games?)
Anyway, thanks again.
Kyle Wren
mr tobias says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 7 Apr, 16:23, Dale Smola <d...@dalespinballs.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Thought I would share this with the group. Stern Invited a group from
>> > > CPL (Chicago Pinball League) to come to the plant and be part of a
>e
>> > > game designers, and sales and marketing people. We were allowed to
>> > > play the games for a while. Then they fed us pizza and soft drinks.
>n
>> > > In general. Then we could go back and play some more. Total time was
>> > > about 2 1/2 hours. They were going to analyze the audits after we
>> > > left.
>>
>> > > The Game - short version:
>n
>> > > the 0.5 on test games I saw.
>>
>> > > 2) For a game that appears simple and straightforward at first, it is
>> > > quite capable of handing you your head on a platter. The magnet in
>> > > front of Iron Monger is brutal. Since you have to hit him 6 times to
>> > > start the Iron Monger multiball, the magnet has 6 chances to send you
>> > > straight to the outlanes, or SDTM. The kickback in the upper left is
>> > > VERY fast. It feeds to the right flipper, but there is no hold of the
>> > > ball, and it comes back at what seems twice the speed of going in.
>>
>> > > 3) Games as shipped have white flippers and red flipper rubbers. John
>> > > said this was probably going to be standard from now on.
>>
>> > > 4) The ramps are steep. Sloppy shots don't make it up. I can see that
>> > > being an issue as flippers wear.
>>
>> > > On the whole, I like it.
>>
>> > > Other interesting bits of imformation:
>> > > 1) At least one other focus group was done, the attendees there were
>> > > coin-op people. Different perspective, different needs.
>>
>h
>> > > earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this i=
>s
>> > > that they are moving in the right direction.
>>
>> > > 3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
>> > > design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
>> > > the highly skilled player. The idea being that shorter ball times for
>> > > high skill players makes for faster turn around on location.I can
>> > > testify it works as a great equalizer. This is going to be an ongoing
>> > > design consideration, adding a degree of randomness.
>>
>g
>> > > play. They are very time consuming to create. The answer was split.
>> > > The player himself is mostly "head down" and not watching except when
>> > > the ball is held, or at end of ball, to see how he is doing. On the
>s
>> > > very much interested in the graphics, as a means to learn how to play
>> > > the game, and figure out the rules.
>>
>> > > 5) Going back to the old skinny side rails was a cost cutting move.
>> > > Saves about $10 a game. But, Stern is or will be offereng a separate
>> > > flipper protector piece, that can be added on. Someone asked if it
>> > > would retrofit older games. Gary said he was 99% sure it would.
>>
>> > > 6) Some consideration to maintaining in the field was shown in
>> > > playfield design.The ramps are high up, with a lot of clearance under
>h
>> > > without having to remove the ramps.
>>
>d
>> > > of a DBV was useful. Answer, no. Hassels and cost of processing too
>> > > much work. But, the discussion went around to paying for games by
>> > > texting. Text to a number, and the game gets a credit. Younger
>> > > audiences are familiar with paying for things that way. Gary said it
>t
>> > > this point to figure out how to make that work right now. Future
>> > > consideration. Also being considered is how to improve the Tournament
>X-
>> > > Box on line gaming. Again, something a younger audience is familiar
>> > > with.
>>
>> > > 9) The idea was brought up of allowing us to have a league night at
>le.
>>
>> > > 10) There was dicussion about the design "showing more to the player
>> > > up front". The casual player with 30 second ball times, never sees
>e quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>As someone pointed out, the Williams' ink didn't wear off as easily as
>Stern's does, even though admittedly there were problems with peeling
>decals on wpc machines. Wear around the flipper buttons does not help
>residual values of machines, which is a factor for operators,
>particularly if return on investment is marginal.
>
>It's not about my personal 'wants' but more about the danger of
>creating a perception of building cheaper looking/feeling products at
>the same or higher cost to the buyer. I'm not suggesting cutting the
>siderails in itself will be the pivot point on which a decision to buy
>or not buy a game will rest, but it's a contributory factor if
>accompanied by several other apparent cutbacks. I offered a
>constructive solution to this, which would probably still give Stern
>benefits without any damage.
>
>If you want to *play* pinball, as most of us do, suggesting people
>don't buy the game is the last thing Stern needs.
At the risk of siding with Koz on this issue, I have to agree the deletion of
the side armor isn't that big of a deal. $10 a game doesn't sound like much to
the average end user, but in manufacturing cost control that is a significant
cost savings. If they had a run of 3000 games that would be 30k saved which goes
a long way toward more important things (like salaries, parts, tooling, and yes,
profit). Offering them as aftermarket accessories offers the best of both worlds
as they will still cover-up existing wear on the routed games.
That said, I prefer the games with the side armor, but if they can't afford it
right now that is better than no new games.
--
Kyle Wren - CARGPB #27
Joe Grenuk
rest of us. Sounds to me as if Stern is doing the right
things....asking players and ops for input, working on getting costs
out of the games, consciously addressing maintenance issues, and so
forth.
I would encourage the group to lay off complaining about the "it's
only $10 a game" stuff, as on the rails. $10 a game isn't a lot to you
as a collector, but it is a ton to a company struggling to keep the
doors open. $10 here and $15 there and next thing you know, it's a
hundred. Or two. If it means anything to an op for residual value
purposes, there are lots of cost-effective ways for ops to deal with
flipper wear issues.
Guys on the group here amaze me sometimes about $$$$...like all the
whining about Marco's shipping... We are whining about $10 rails,
when, the first thing that many of you do here after you buy a game is
to whip out the credit card and spend hundreds "modding" it up,
including installing Hallmark Christmas ornaments, or new chrome or
powder-coated rails and legs and lockdowns on games made by
Stern....and by Williams/Bally.
Stern is doing what most companies are doing, and have to do on the
cost side. Doesn't make it right, as another poster said, but
consumers are often not willing to step up and pay what they used to
pay. One example from my recent experience. I rented a car. Parked it,
locked it from the driver's side. Came back, and being the gentleman
that I am, I tried to open the door for my wife. But wait! Where do I
stick the key??? There was no lock on the passenger side of the car;
only on the driver's side. And I thought...WTF! How much does a second
lock cost? Ten bucks? :)
Just my $.02...
Joe
jimjim66
Yes, you are right game play is first, I will never disagree on that,
but I think you missed my point.
DMD graphics does effect pinball. IMO, casual players prefer it. If
it was only about game play, why even have side art, or themes to
begin with? When I read reviews of BBH, people talk about the
animation, toys, and game play. Those things draw players in.
You are right about the apron and side rails, but if I am going to see
a reduction of items for cost saving, I would like to also see a
decrease in price. Why does it have to be one or the other?
My point is, why can't they concentrate on play, theme, and quality?
brokenvette
I wouldnt bitch about having the skinny siderails but they wouldnt be
needed If the cab art didnt rub off. That bothers me.
David Gersic
> as a collector, but it is a ton to a company struggling to keep the
> doors open. $10 here and $15 there and next thing you know, it's a
> hundred. Or two. If it means anything to an op for residual value
> purposes, there are lots of cost-effective ways for ops to deal with
> flipper wear issues.
Yeah, a gallon of brown latex is only like $25, and you can do several
cabinets with it. ;-)
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Real Newspaper Headline: Kids make Nutritious Snacks |
Pinball Wizard
pinball.com> wrote:
Thanks for the review! I agree that while $10 a game sounds pettym
multiply that by hundreds, plus any other little "things", and a
company trying to stay alive is doing the RIGHT thing. As far as
letting the casual player see things "up front", I really, really,
REALLY think they got it right with BBH cause the buck toy is the
perfect example. Unless you totally drain in 2 seconds, you'll get at
least 1 chance to hit the buck. Imagine a 5 year old kid flipping
away getting the satisfaction of that. The ramp and stuff would
hardly matter. Then, he wants more and if he's lucky enough to get
FIVE buck hits and gets multiball he's happy. One thing that casual
players are ALWAYS in awe of is multiball, if you notice.
T
Dale Smola
> front of the folks that make the games. Did anyone shove a game?
> (sorry Gary! d:^\)
>
> -phish
Yes. But I would prefer not to name names.
Dale Smola
phishrace
There's always one or two in every league. Can't take them anywhere.
Stress testing is an integral part of Quality Control.
d;^)
-phish
alive-cds
save money as well. Come to think of it, why not a simple playfield
with a spinner, few rollover lanes and say 8 targets? Oh and lets
raise the list price of the machine to $5695 to help with salaries (or
should I say severance packages) and profit. Sorry, I'll be looking
for a nice used WMS/Bally!
jar155
This type of reply is completely deflating to a good conversation.
ka9scf
> The DMD and the translite both need to be replaced with a monitor that
> uses all that real estate or you could perhaps make the backbox
> smaller and not have such a big monitor. The monitor should display
> graphics based on gameplay (e.g. display the Monger getting hit when
> player hits the pf toy with the ball). Combine that with a shaker
> motor and that's quite a player experience.
>
> Rob
>
Version .7 shows animations of the Monger hits. .5 did not.
Ax@EFnet IRC #pinball
ka9scf
> quite capable of handing you your head on a platter. The magnet in
> front of Iron Monger is brutal. Since you have to hit him 6 times to
> start the Iron Monger multiball, the magnet has 6 chances to send you
> straight to the outlanes, or SDTM. The kickback in the upper left is
> VERY fast. It feeds to the right flipper, but there is no hold of the
> ball, and it comes back at what seems twice the speed of going in.
Yep, I saw a good player get completely pwned by the Monger mag with
an SDTM.
I also like the pin on the right outlane drain. It slows the ball
down preventing the people that are compelled to move the game 6" to
save the ball.
Ax@EFnet IRC #pinball
Brian Munn
> Thought I would share this with the group. Stern Invited a group from
> CPL (Chicago Pinball League) to come to the plant and be part of a
> game designers, and sales and marketing people. We were allowed to
> play the games for a while. Then they fed us pizza and soft drinks.
> In general. Then we could go back and play some more. Total time was
> about 2 1/2 hours. They were going to analyze the audits after we
> left.
>
> The Game - short version:
> the 0.5 on test games I saw.
>
> quite capable of handing you your head on a platter. The magnet in
> front of Iron Monger is brutal. Since you have to hit him 6 times to
> start the Iron Monger multiball, the magnet has 6 chances to send you
> straight to the outlanes, or SDTM. The kickback in the upper left is
> VERY fast. It feeds to the right flipper, but there is no hold of the
> ball, and it comes back at what seems twice the speed of going in.
>
> said this was probably going to be standard from now on.
>
> 4) The ramps are steep. Sloppy shots don't make it up. I can see that
> being an issue as flippers wear.
>
> On the whole, I like it.
>
> Other interesting bits of imformation:
> 1) At least one other focus group was done, the attendees there were
> coin-op people. Different perspective, different needs.
>
> earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this is
> that they are moving in the right direction.
>
> 3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
> design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
> the highly skilled player. The idea being that shorter ball times for
> high skill players makes for faster turn around on location.I can
> testify it works as a great equalizer. This is going to be an ongoing
> design consideration, adding a degree of randomness.
>
> play. They are very time consuming to create. The answer was split.
> The player himself is mostly "head down" and not watching except when
> the ball is held, or at end of ball, to see how he is doing. On the
> very much interested in the graphics, as a means to learn how to play
> the game, and figure out the rules.
>
> 5) Going back to the old skinny side rails was a cost cutting move.
> Saves about $10 a game. But, Stern is or will be offereng a separate
> flipper protector piece, that can be added on. Someone asked if it
> would retrofit older games. Gary said he was 99% sure it would.
>
> 6) Some consideration to maintaining in the field was shown in
> playfield design.The ramps are high up, with a lot of clearance under
> without having to remove the ramps.
>
> of a DBV was useful. Answer, no. Hassels and cost of processing too
> much work. But, the discussion went around to paying for games by
> texting. Text to a number, and the game gets a credit. Younger
> audiences are familiar with paying for things that way. Gary said it
> this point to figure out how to make that work right now. Future
> consideration. Also being considered is how to improve the Tournament
> Box on line gaming. Again, something a younger audience is familiar
> with.
>
> 9) The idea was brought up of allowing us to have a league night at
>
> 10) There was dicussion about the design "showing more to the player
> up front". The casual player with 30 second ball times, never sees
> front, while maintaining interest to the skilled player, who wants
> cool stuff further in. Not an easy thing.
>
> The bottom line of all this that I think is important, is that Stern
> is now making an effort to get audience opinion, and listen to its
> customers. Your opinion now counts, or at the least can be heard. I
> find that encouraging. I'm not aware that they have held these focus
> groups in the past. They intend to have these gatherings before each
> new game is released. I would imagine the invited groups to be
> different each time, to get more variety of opinion.
>
> Dale Smola
Thanks for posting. That is a good start by Stern to bring in
collectors and players to evaluation their games.
That said and since there is currently no other pinball
manufacturer:
They should publish their marketing stategy and who they think is
there competition is when making a buying decision on a new stern
versus other options to the same set of folks. I think Stern misses
the point regarding purchasing decisions and there competition.
1) Ops: I have recently seen ops start placing old EM's that cost a
fraction of a new Stern on location. Which they claim much success.
OPS are more concerned about their bottom line not Sterns success or
failure.
2) Players/Collectors: When making a $4000+ decision on a new
machine we look at all the options (old Williams Ballys, Sterns,
Gottlieb, Capcom).
For me, I look for a game loaded with toys number 1, Number 2 -
Is it fun to play, Number 3 - Rules, Number 4 - Artwork. The whole
cost cutting strategy right now doesn't work for me since it is
affecting what I see and play (it is not hidden). Because if I am
going to buy something for $4000+ it better look and play like it is
worth it. BDK was the last Stern Pin that met that criteria for me.
It they are going to look cheap then the purchase cost needs to be
reduced to say $2500 to justify against the older machines since they
provide more satisfaction (of considered factors) for the larger price
tag.
3) Families (Not Collectors) I would wager a large percentage of
folks who buy a pin for there families would research on the web and
talk to friends who have pins for advice
4) Families buying without advice (I imagine this is very small)
I would like to see Stern succeed but I am not confidant they
understand the market for a $4000+ machine. They are competing
against the past as well as the here and now.
Brian
Detroit Pinball
Dale Smola
> 9) - League play at Stern won't encourage location play. I don't know how
> many ops in the Chicago area buy pins, but if Stern moves into competition
> with them, could back fire huge. LTG :)
>
I think the offer was a "being polite" sort of thing since Lyman is in
our league. I don't believe the intention was to make it a regular
thing, More of a one shot deal. Not intended as a competition to ops..
Gary prefers we all play on location and support the ops. That
question came up in the discussions.
Our league does not play on location. I believe it did at one time.
But with 32 members, the number of public venues that can accomodate
us is very limited. Members with space and machines sufficient to
accomodate the crowd take turns hosting. So the mix of games is
different every month.
Dale Smola
Scylla
Great write up, Dale. Thanks for taking the time to post. Did they
share with you what the feedback was from the other focus group?
Curious as to what they said and how it differed from your group.
Best, Steve
Rare Hero
> I would like to see Stern succeed but I am not confidant they
> understand the market for a $4000+ machine. They are competing
> against the past as well as the here and now.
That's true in my case....I don't usually seek out the more expensive
WMS games....and I was eagerly awaiting Iron Man...but after seeing
the "cheapening" in action on IM, it made me think "Hmmm...a $3k-ish
AFM or SS or IJ seems like a BARGAIN compared to Iron Man, based on
what those games offer ....not to mention all of the $1k or $2k games
w/ more to offer! Sure, IM might be fun and I'll play it on location
if anyone gets it ....but as a collector, I'm out (maybe I'd get one
used down the road).
Greg
MRG
I agree 100%
Brian Munn
The other factor that is not talked about is the dependency that OPS
have with Collectors. In a recent discussion in Detroit Pinball
League this point was raised. There was not a collectors market when
Williams/Bally existed. OPS would actually throw out machines. Now
OPS count on having collectors buy them off route to justify the
original investment. If collectors/players do not like the cheaped
games ops then have a reduced disposal costs.
Warning I am about to by sarcastic. Hey maybe this whole problems of
reduced people going to ops/locations is due to OPS no longer throwing
out the machines when they are done?
Brian
Detroit Pinball
homebrood
>
> LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
Hmmm... Last time I checked better games, and the right themes, was
the direction we've all been asking for...
I would have to call that moving in the right direction...
Tom
brokenvette
> That's true in my case....I don't usually seek out the more expensive
> WMS games....and I was eagerly awaiting Iron Man...but after seeing
> the "cheapening" in action on IM, it made me think "Hmmm...a $3k-ish
> AFM or SS or IJ seems like a BARGAIN compared to Iron Man, based on
> what those games offer ....not to mention all of the $1k or $2k games
> w/ more to offer! Sure, IM might be fun and I'll play it on location
> if anyone gets it ....but as a collector, I'm out (maybe I'd get one
> used down the road).
>
> Greg
That is exactly what I just did. I was disappointed in what I have
seen in IM and so I just pulled the trigger on a Scared Stiff. Its a
nice game and IPB is running the PFs soon and I ordered one for it. I
have 4 fan layout games already so I dont need another.
jar155
Cool! Did you get the one here in Utah?
appetite4pinball
Isn't SS a fan layout?
brokenvette
> reduced people going to ops/locations is due to OPS no longer throwing
> out the machines when they are done?
>
> Brian
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bite your tongue dude. Dont give them any ideas. But I have all the
pins I need anyway.
goatdan
> LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
> CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
> comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
So the NBA, which draws thousands of fans to each game and has a
worldwide appeal is a crappy theme?
I still don't understand *anyone* who claims this. Of the three major
sports leagues, the NBA is probably the most world-wide friendly
(hell, my hometown team the Bucks have players from four continents on
the team!), and there is absolutely no way that a player was going to
walk up to NBA and go, "Aw, hell. This looks like that Space Jam game
that came out about 15 years ago, I'm not playing that!"
CSI and 24 I can see the issue with broad appeal, but the NBA?
Seriously?
brokenvette
Question: I know what I think when I see a game like NBA or
BBH( before I played BBH) or some of the other losers which is no
ramps, no depth, bare playfield and all that BUT what does the average
pinhead think? Before I discovered pinball I saw a machine, put in a
quarter and batted the ball around to see what would happen when I hit
something while trying not to lose it. It took me having my own to
realize there was more to it than that. Is it tha same for other non
pinheads?
goatdan
> In article <bbb4e817-bafd-4686-ad38-b8f8d280a...@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
I agree, the side rails were something Stern did for collectors, and
the collector market, if on here is any indication, doesn't want to
buy his games anyway, so why waste $10 per machine on them? Not
having them on would mean the cabinets would show wear, which would
encourage well used games to get replaced by ops, as it would be
pretty obvious when it is worn. Since collectors have spoken by
refusing to buy new Stern games, this makes *total* sense. I liked
the new side rails, but never understood why they were done in the
first place as they were a 100% collectors market thing.
John In WI
players.....
jar155
> I'm not sure that the target demographic of the NBA are big pinball
> players.....
I have season tickets to an NBA team and pinball is my favorite hobby.
That's one of us! My dad has season tickets too, and he owns a couple
of pins and loves to play on location. That's two!
Surely there's some overlap.
appetite4pinball
The CSI series has the best Worldwide ratings of any television show
over the past decade including American Idol. Over 80 Million viewers
a week!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/tv--radio/csi-is-worlds-favourite-show/2008/06/16/1213468306913.html
mnpinball
>
> - Show quoted text -
choice. CSI is a BAD theme, I thought that when it was announced. I
still bought one and it's fun. I like the game and I like the show
but
75% of the population wouldn't apply to pinball for this theme. With
sales of about 500 units that tells the story. 80 million viewers on
CSI or 80+++ million ticket sales for Avatar. Bad choices at
Stern !!!!!!! I think Avatar should have been made and I think the
majority here would think the same.
mnpinball
NBA is a crappy theme because it's been done and brings nothing new to
the table. The games out there already are still in operators hands.
NBA Fastbreak, Space Jam, The Shaq Attack. etc... still earning
money. Uninspired theme. May be a fun game just saying it a loser
theme.
cody chunn
only make a 1% adjustment based on the results, that is improvement.
The side rails are a complete non-issue. A couple bucks worth of mylar and
the cabs are protected indefinitely.
Great to hear Stern making these first steps to improve their process.
Zero complaints here.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Dale Smola" <da...@dalespinballs.com> wrote in message
news:d195a624-dce3-42e3...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...
> Thought I would share this with the group. Stern Invited a group from
> CPL (Chicago Pinball League) to come to the plant and be part of a
> focus group and review the new IM game. Gary was there, along with the
> game designers, and sales and marketing people. We were allowed to
> play the games for a while. Then they fed us pizza and soft drinks.
> This was followed by an open discussion/Q & A about the game and Stern
> In general. Then we could go back and play some more. Total time was
> about 2 1/2 hours. They were going to analyze the audits after we
> left.
>
> The Game - short version:
> 1) Games were running 0.7 software. Looked somewhat more finished than
> the 0.5 on test games I saw.
>
> 2) For a game that appears simple and straightforward at first, it is
> quite capable of handing you your head on a platter. The magnet in
> front of Iron Monger is brutal. Since you have to hit him 6 times to
> start the Iron Monger multiball, the magnet has 6 chances to send you
> straight to the outlanes, or SDTM. The kickback in the upper left is
> VERY fast. It feeds to the right flipper, but there is no hold of the
> ball, and it comes back at what seems twice the speed of going in.
>
> 3) Games as shipped have white flippers and red flipper rubbers. John
> said this was probably going to be standard from now on.
>
> 4) The ramps are steep. Sloppy shots don't make it up. I can see that
> being an issue as flippers wear.
>
> On the whole, I like it.
>
> Other interesting bits of imformation:
> 1) At least one other focus group was done, the attendees there were
> coin-op people. Different perspective, different needs.
>
> 2) Test games on location are earning well. BBH and IM test games both
> earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this is
> that they are moving in the right direction.
>
> 3) The magnet (there are actually 2 of them) is part of a deliberate
> design decision to add more randomness to the game play to counteract
> the highly skilled player. The idea being that shorter ball times for
> high skill players makes for faster turn around on location.I can
> testify it works as a great equalizer. This is going to be an ongoing
> design consideration, adding a degree of randomness.
>
> 4) We were asked how miuch we pay attention to the DMD graphics during
> play. They are very time consuming to create. The answer was split.
> The player himself is mostly "head down" and not watching except when
> the ball is held, or at end of ball, to see how he is doing. On the
> other hand, as was the case last night, anyone watching, the player is
> very much interested in the graphics, as a means to learn how to play
> the game, and figure out the rules.
>
> 5) Going back to the old skinny side rails was a cost cutting move.
> Saves about $10 a game. But, Stern is or will be offereng a separate
> flipper protector piece, that can be added on. Someone asked if it
> would retrofit older games. Gary said he was 99% sure it would.
>
> 6) Some consideration to maintaining in the field was shown in
> playfield design.The ramps are high up, with a lot of clearance under
> them. You should be able to wipe down the playfield or adjust a switch
> without having to remove the ramps.
>
> 7) We were asked if we thought a credit card swipe as an option istead
> of a DBV was useful. Answer, no. Hassels and cost of processing too
> much work. But, the discussion went around to paying for games by
> texting. Text to a number, and the game gets a credit. Younger
> audiences are familiar with paying for things that way. Gary said it
> was something worth considering, but Stern has no inhouse expertese at
> this point to figure out how to make that work right now. Future
> consideration. Also being considered is how to improve the Tournament
> system to have more locations take part in a single tournament. Like X-
> Box on line gaming. Again, something a younger audience is familiar
> with.
>
> 9) The idea was brought up of allowing us to have a league night at
> Stern. (This might be because Lyman is in our league.) It's possible.
>
> 10) There was dicussion about the design "showing more to the player
> up front". The casual player with 30 second ball times, never sees
> most of the good stuff. There are trying to find a way to show more up
Rare Hero
> I have season tickets to an NBA team and pinball is my favorite hobby.
> That's one of us! My dad has season tickets too, and he owns a couple
> of pins and loves to play on location. That's two!
>
> Surely there's some overlap.
DId both of you buy an NBA pinball?
Greg
Brian Munn
> On Apr 7, 3:46 pm, appetite4pinball <mgsiev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 3:20 pm, goatdan <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 7, 11:19 am, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> > > > themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
> > > > but shorter ball times DO affect the cash box. Hard to sell an op a
> > > > CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
> > > > comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
>
> > > So the NBA, which draws thousands of fans to each game and has a
> > > worldwide appeal is a crappy theme?
>
> > > I still don't understand *anyone* who claims this. Of the three major
> > > sports leagues, the NBA is probably the most world-wide friendly
> > > (hell, my hometown team the Bucks have players from four continents on
> > > the team!), and there is absolutely no way that a player was going to
> > > walk up to NBA and go, "Aw, hell. This looks like that Space Jam game
> > > that came out about 15 years ago, I'm not playing that!"
>
> > > CSI and 24 I can see the issue with broad appeal, but the NBA?
> > > Seriously?
>
> > The CSI series has the best Worldwide ratings of any television show
> > over the past decade including American Idol. Over 80 Million viewers
> > a week!
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And according to the horseshit sales that transcends into a bad theme
> choice. CSI is a BAD theme, I thought that when it was announced. I
> still bought one and it's fun. I like the game and I like the show
> but
> 75% of the population wouldn't apply to pinball for this theme. With
> sales of about 500 units that tells the story. 80 million viewers on
> CSI or 80+++ million ticket sales for Avatar. Bad choices at
> Stern !!!!!!! I think Avatar should have been made and I think the
>
> - Show quoted text -
Theme is a factor but it also doesn't kill a machine if it has a bad
one. The key here is it needs a killer playfield. Stern had a brief
run of killer playfields (shots, toys, more toys) from POTC to BDK (I
am not counting Shrek and IJ). Then they started to cut costs and
started with the premier designers. It seems the days of killer
playfields from stern are over. I am sorry but I don't get excited
about a spinner or uppost or bash toy (unless it is interactive ala
MM's castle).
I worried that due to costs the day's of Killer Playfields is over....
and thus the day's of new killer pins is over as well! Or at least
one's I am will to shell out $4000 for.
Brian
Detroit Pinball
mnpinball
***The way you cut and splice my response makes it worded incorrectly.
***Here is the original post. With my slight changes to make it more
clear as to what I meant..
>On Apr 7, 10:23 am, Dale Smola <d...@dalespinballs.com> wrote:
2) Test games on location are earning well. BBH and IM test games
both
earned more than previous test games. Sterns interpretation of this
is
that they are moving in the right direction.
**LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the
right
themes and are better games ie(BBH and Iron Man). It's not nec. that
Stern was moving in the right direction, it's that 2 better games came
around after the shity themes of 24 and NBA !! So of course the
audits would show better.
But shorter ball times DO affect the cash box in effect that which we
have of BBH and IM which makes sense of the better audits. Hard to
sell an op a CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/
Fantasy,
comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
J
mnpinball
> On Apr 7, 6:02 pm, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 3:46 pm, appetite4pinball <mgsiev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 7, 3:20 pm, goatdan <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 7, 11:19 am, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> > > > > themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
> > > > > but shorter ball times DO affect the cash box. Hard to sell an op a
> > > > > CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
> > > > > comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
>
> > > > So the NBA, which draws thousands of fans to each game and has a
> > > > worldwide appeal is a crappy theme?
>
> > > > I still don't understand *anyone* who claims this. Of the three major
> > > > sports leagues, the NBA is probably the most world-wide friendly
> > > > (hell, my hometown team the Bucks have players from four continents on
> > > > the team!), and there is absolutely no way that a player was going to
> > > > walk up to NBA and go, "Aw, hell. This looks like that Space Jam game
> > > > that came out about 15 years ago, I'm not playing that!"
>
> > > > CSI and 24 I can see the issue with broad appeal, but the NBA?
> > > > Seriously?
>
> > > The CSI series has the best Worldwide ratings of any television show
> > > over the past decade including American Idol. Over 80 Million viewers
> > > a week!
>
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > And according to the horseshit sales that transcends into a bad theme
> > choice. CSI is a BAD theme, I thought that when it was announced. I
> > still bought one and it's fun. I like the game and I like the show
> > but
> > 75% of the population wouldn't apply to pinball for this theme. With
> > sales of about 500 units that tells the story. 80 million viewers on
> > CSI or 80+++ million ticket sales for Avatar. Bad choices at
> > Stern !!!!!!! I think Avatar should have been made and I think the
> > majority here would think the same.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Theme is a factor but it also doesn't kill a machine if it has a bad
> one. The key here is it needs a killer playfield. Stern had a brief
> run of killer playfields (shots, toys, more toys) from POTC to BDK (I
> am not counting Shrek and IJ). Then they started to cut costs and
> started with the premier designers. It seems the days of killer
> playfields from stern are over. I am sorry but I don't get excited
> about a spinner or uppost or bash toy (unless it is interactive ala
> MM's castle).
>
> I worried that due to costs the day's of Killer Playfields is over....
> and thus the day's of new killer pins is over as well! Or at least
> one's I am will to shell out $4000 for.
>
> Brian
>
> - Show quoted text -
Correct, buy up all the BDK's you can while in production it's under-
rated and a great pin. It's going to go up in price when they dry up
from vendors. :)
24 and CSI are great playing pins as well. SRP and PLD last
pins ! 24 actually I think will see a surge in price after a year
or so. The depth and gameplay are fantastic. About 1200+ produced
and never made a 2nd run if correct??
jar155
No, but I definitely put more than my fair share of quarters into it.
Brian Munn
> > 24 and CSI are great playing pins as well. SRP and PLD last
> pins ! 24 actually I think will see a surge in price after a year
> or so. The depth and gameplay are fantastic. About 1200+ produced
>
> - Show quoted text -
You mean 24 and CSI were had their designs started by SRP and PLD but
they were not finished by them so I would not call them the last
machines by SRP and PLD. That would be SM and FGY (They oversaw the
entire design process with these two). I am also not that high on 24
an CSI....
Brian
Detroit Pinball
mnpinball
Good point ;-)
Rare Hero
> 24 actually I think will see a surge in price after a year or so.
Lets place some bets and come back in a year. Ugly eyesore of a game
w/ annoying sound package based on a cancelled show that no one really
has much attachment to. I say, a year from now...it will be difficult
to sell a 24 for more than $2800. :)
Greg
azpinlawyer
I'm with you. I enjoyed it for a while, but the modes were lame and
pointless.
Brian Munn
Now here is a game that has been universally panned but I believe will
rise in price.
WOF
Brian
Detroit Pinball
Rare Hero
> Now here is a game that has been universally panned but I believe will
> rise in price.
>
> WOF
...only if the software gets a special "Home Version". We can argue
all day long that WOF is great and none of us will ever would see the
wizard stuff ....but it is what it is, and collectors won't pay big
bucks for it as long as it retains the stigma of "Stern's most
unfinished game".
Greg
cody chunn
*grunt*
*puff-puff*
:0)
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Rare Hero" <rareh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:78c964a9-787c-4363...@u34g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
appetite4pinball
> On Apr 7, 3:46 pm, appetite4pinball <mgsiev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 3:20 pm, goatdan <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 7, 11:19 am, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> > > > themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
> > > > but shorter ball times DO affect the cash box. Hard to sell an op a
> > > > CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
> > > > comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
>
> > > So the NBA, which draws thousands of fans to each game and has a
> > > worldwide appeal is a crappy theme?
>
> > > I still don't understand *anyone* who claims this. Of the three major
> > > sports leagues, the NBA is probably the most world-wide friendly
> > > (hell, my hometown team the Bucks have players from four continents on
> > > the team!), and there is absolutely no way that a player was going to
> > > walk up to NBA and go, "Aw, hell. This looks like that Space Jam game
> > > that came out about 15 years ago, I'm not playing that!"
>
> > > CSI and 24 I can see the issue with broad appeal, but the NBA?
> > > Seriously?
>
> > The CSI series has the best Worldwide ratings of any television show
> > over the past decade including American Idol. Over 80 Million viewers
> > a week!
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And according to the horseshit sales that transcends into a bad theme
> choice. CSI is a BAD theme, I thought that when it was announced. I
> still bought one and it's fun. I like the game and I like the show
> but
> 75% of the population wouldn't apply to pinball for this theme. With
> sales of about 500 units that tells the story. 80 million viewers on
> CSI or 80+++ million ticket sales for Avatar. Bad choices at
> Stern !!!!!!! I think Avatar should have been made and I think the
> majority here would think the same.
While it's not a great pinball theme, i really don't think it's as bad
as everyone makes it out to be. 80 million viewers each week for 10
years, plus two spin-off shows with great ratings. If you're looking
for a theme with great Worldwide exposure this is it! I think it was
just poorly executed. They should have ponied up the money to get a
few licensed songs from the Who, and incorporated the Miami and New
York shows as well. Have David Caruso do the voice acting instead of
Peterson. Have a special mode where Horatio musters quotes while
taking off his sunglasses, throw in some attractive girls/strippers
with some mild TnA, guns, drugs, sex, violence, and general
outrageousness, and you got yourself a game! They made the game lame
with the boring voice acting, bland playfield art and music, modeling
the playfield after the lab, and pointless mix-master. Make the game
a bit more edgy and adult oriented like the shows actually are, and it
might have actually been great!
-Mike
mnpinball
Iron Man has no modes and you ordered one ! ;-)
mnpinball
> On Apr 7, 5:02 pm, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 3:46 pm, appetite4pinball <mgsiev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 7, 3:20 pm, goatdan <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 7, 11:19 am, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > LOL...This right off the bat is WRONG. It's that they picked the right
> > > > > themes and are better games. Not nec. moving in the right direction
> > > > > but shorter ball times DO affect the cash box. Hard to sell an op a
> > > > > CSI, 24, or a rehashed NBA. I have always said Sci-Fi-/Fantasy,
> > > > > comics themes are timeless and a better choice overall for appeal.
>
> > > > So the NBA, which draws thousands of fans to each game and has a
> > > > worldwide appeal is a crappy theme?
>
> > > > I still don't understand *anyone* who claims this. Of the three major
> > > > sports leagues, the NBA is probably the most world-wide friendly
> > > > (hell, my hometown team the Bucks have players from four continents on
> > > > the team!), and there is absolutely no way that a player was going to
> > > > walk up to NBA and go, "Aw, hell. This looks like that Space Jam game
> > > > that came out about 15 years ago, I'm not playing that!"
>
> > > > CSI and 24 I can see the issue with broad appeal, but the NBA?
> > > > Seriously?
>
> > > The CSI series has the best Worldwide ratings of any television show
> > > over the past decade including American Idol. Over 80 Million viewers
> > > a week!
>
the show for voice acting and the music from the show added alot. I
won't sell mine.
Rare Hero
> Iron Man has no modes and you ordered one ! ;-)
Countdown to Greg's "FS: HUO IM" starts....NOW! ;)
Greg
goatdan
> I'm not sure that the target demographic of the NBA are big pinball
> players.....
People? Families? Kids? Adults? Men? Women?
I just went to an NBA game last week, and there was people of all
types there. If pinball isn't meant for a demographic that the NBA
caters to, pinball is in a LOT of trouble.
goatdan
Yes, but the same could be said for Baywatch and it didn't translate
into huge sales or earnings.
Rare Hero
> Yes, but the same could be said for Baywatch and it didn't translate
> into huge sales or earnings.
Baywatch sold more than NBA! Tits > Balls. :)
Greg
goatdan
> NBA is a crappy theme because it's been done and brings nothing new to
> the table. The games out there already are still in operators hands.
> NBA Fastbreak, Space Jam, The Shaq Attack. etc... still earning
> money. Uninspired theme. May be a fun game just saying it a loser
> theme.
All of those were over a decade ago. When is the last time that you
walked into a sports bar and saw any of those? I have seen NFL at a
couple locations around here. Seems that updating a timeless theme
like basketball or football every 10 or so years isn't the worst
idea. I am still surprised we haven't had a true MLB theme, those
themes remain strong.
goatdan
Heh, I think though the time that NBA and Baywatch came out, and how
many games were sold during each era had a lot to do with that.
NBA is a really awesome title. I'm really surprised it hasn't caught
on more with ops. The 'toys' on it are pretty awesome to watch, the
spinner adds some great randomness to the game, and the game has a lot
of really fun stuff with it. Of ALL of the Stern games released in
the last 5 years, NBA is the MOST surprising to me that it doesn't
seem to have done better.
Rare Hero
> NBA is a really awesome title. I'm really surprised it hasn't caught
> on more with ops. The 'toys' on it are pretty awesome to watch, the
> spinner adds some great randomness to the game, and the game has a lot
> of really fun stuff with it. Of ALL of the Stern games released in
> the last 5 years, NBA is the MOST surprising to me that it doesn't
> seem to have done better.
Yeah actually I think NBA is a really fun game....but it's probably a
combination of bad timing & operators having long memories (I don't
htink NBAFB didn't do so well for them).
Greg
chuck
Again greg, I rarely agree with you but I do on this one. The three
folders on the playfield are awful. I would rather listen to 12 hours
of barney than two minutes of chloe talking. And the show was only
good in it's first two seasons then just progressively got worse. I
just can't get into that pin.
Lloyd Olson
the split. LTG :)
> "goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
> news:3c0c2b95-a8ab-4580...@x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
shrinks the demo just a tad, I'd say.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:21a9daae-da21-4e83...@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Rare Hero
> Again greg, I rarely agree with you but I do on this one.
Well, I was going to tell everyone how handsome you are and how nice
you smell....but if I don't want to cause any major disagreements
around here!!!
Greg
appetite4pinball
Amen to that! Baywatch is one of my favorite Sega's. 3K production
in 1995 makes it a better seller than Batman Forever or Apollo 13
which were released the same year. It also sold better than some of
the WPC games of that year like Congo, Johnny M, Jackpot, Indy 5K, or
Who Dunnit.
The problem with CSI is that playing the game is nothing like watching
the show. It should have just been called "Forensic Lab" because all
of the good parts of CSI are missing such as the great music, witty
dialog, hot chicks, and the crazy and mysterious plot lines. The game
is just "boring" and "safe" the way it is. no imagination or fun like
the show!
goatdan
> Was there an NBA at the arena? What about a local bar or Hooters? That
> shrinks the demo just a tad, I'd say.
I assume you mean an NBA pinball at the arena, and no there wasn't
from what I saw. However, I really don't think that NBA fans only go
to arenas, local bars and Hooters, and last I checked local bars were
one of the best places to find pins still on route.
If your statement is that NBA didn't do better because it isn't in all
the local bars, well, duh. That's what I'm saying -- my question is
why *isn't* NBA in more locations? It seemed like a perfect theme for
many locations (sports bars) that haven't really had any pin cater to
them since NFL.
goatdan
> Perhaps the ops are done buying $4500 games that take in $25 a week before
> the split. LTG :)
I would be very surprised if it would take in $25 / week or less if it
was put in at sports bars. The nearest one on location that I know of
does very well from what I've heard. I know I've pumped at least $25
into it myself.
Ken
<snip>
>
> Iron Man has no modes and you ordered one ! ;-)
Eh? No modes? Perhaps I'm not getting the clear definition of what a
"mode" is, but I saw 5 distinct modes on IM: Iron Man, Monger,
Whiplash, Drones and War Machine.
In your defense, Monger seems too repetitive, the Iron Man mode seems
a bit weak by definition and War Machine is very difficult to collect
because it is a punishingly tight shot with a General Yagoff type
kickback, but there are definitely modes, or at least modes as I know
them from AFM, MM, Austin Powers, SM, TDK, Genesis, etc.
Anyway, please clarify this statement because I genuinely do not know
what you mean by it, unless your ";-)" was you being facetious and
just busting Greg's chops?
And by my definition, a mode is anything where you do something over
and over a set number of times to collect something else (or to "Start
a Mode" with a special set of rules and points). I suppose that could
mean a ball lock as well, but I take it to mean more like hitting the
toilet a set number of times to collect Fat Man Multiball which is
needed to collect all the Henchmen, or hitting the Damsel ramp over
and over to rescue the damsel and light the light for the multiballs
and eventually Royal Madness and beyond. Iron Man definitely has
modes if my definition is correct, but I've been wrong before...
In fact, there seems to be little else to do in Iron Man this early in
the software stage... Then again, with only about 10 games or so
under my belt, it's just possible that I sucked enough not to see
anything beyond the surface. It is a punishing game and seeing Lyman
and Josh get the same crappy scores as I did from time to time, means
it's a pretty good equalizer type game.
Very fun to play, but 10 games isn't enough for me to give a valid
opinion yet.
-Ken, CPL
www.Team-EM.com
Rare Hero
> Eh? No modes? Perhaps I'm not getting the clear definition of what a
> "mode" is, but I saw 5 distinct modes on IM: Iron Man, Monger,
> Whiplash, Drones and War Machine.
Do those indicated modes, or items to be collected?
For example - LOTR has clear modes: The Ring Modes. Each one starts
an "event", with goals to accomplish before the time runs out. On the
other hand, POTC's compass is mostly about collecting. Getting a
certain amount of bumper hits "collects" an insert, hitting all the
Pirate targets "collects" an insert, sinking the ship "collects" an
insert, getting the Jack The Monkey Hurry-Up "collects" an insert.
The game has a few modes, but not like TSPP, FGY, Spidey, which have
numerous events to play out. CV is also a collection-type game...you
try to do various things to light up the inserts to spell Cirqus.
Obviously w/ Iron Man we don't know for sure yet, since the game
hasn't been released w/ finished software, but based on the playfield,
Iron Man SEEMS to be more of a collection game than a mode game.
Greg
c2
I'd describe a mode as a mini game within the game. Has a distinct
start, a set of objectives or scoring opportunities, and a distinct end.
What you are describing is not a mode, but just advancing towards a
feature.
Take LOTR for example.
A mode would be "War of the Ents". You qualify it by collecting Elf
Rings and start it by shooting the Ring Ramp. The objective is to bash
away at the Tower. You complete it by either releasing the River (with
enough tower bashes) or by it timing out.
Collecting the Fellowship is not a mode... as you collect a member, you
advance toward multiball. The feature is available all the time for
advancement.
Having said all that, I guess *I* could be totally wrong as well!
-Craig
mnpinball
I was bustin' Greg's chops ;-) Hence the smiley.
azpinlawyer
>
> - Show quoted text -
It appears that IM is following the lead of BBH in terms not of modes
or the absence thereof, but in terms of the interrelationship (or lack
thereof) between modes and inserts. At first blush, BBH appears to
lack modes. Then, the player begins to notice a "bonus round" insert
blinking (in a pattern, as it turns out). The bonus rounds are the
"modes." On IM, we see no inserts which would lead the player to
believe there are modes--then, the player will notice the "start
feature" insert at the ramp entrances. Methinks that will be the
"mode" insert. Perhaps it will blink in a Morse-code type pattern a
la BBH. Further cost savings in terms of lamps, inserts,
programming? I'd say so. Sacrifice in terms of gameplay? Perhaps
not. BBH was a blast to play at TPF.
mnpinball
Here are what I call modes in BBH. I think this type of depth and
mode software will be lacking in IM.
It's what keeps things fresh and random for longetivity. This is what
people may complain about. These are the underlying "hidden" modes
you could say that are not on the playfield as inserts. Only showing
as a bonus round on one insert on BBH at the blue bottom left insert.
There are six bonus rounds in total - Boars Gone Wild, Frog Flippin'
Bonus, Gopher Garden Bonus, Mars Needs Cattle, Mug Shot Bonus and
Pappy's Moonshine Bonus.
If you are talking about the Monger, War Machine, and Whiplash needed
to hit or complete those featured multiballs as modes that yes it's a
mode. Hit an object x times, hit a ramp x times...etc.. I just hope
there are some underlying bonus rounds to keep thing a little random.
Either way it will be a fun game no doubt. The art, sounds, and toys
look fantastic !
Ken
Hmmm...Then, by those criteria (maybe), I'd say (in my opinion):
Iron Man: Collection
Monger: Mode
Drones: Collection
War Machine: Mode
Whiplash: Mode
"Collect" all to do something else - wizard mode perhaps or something
else to get to wizard mode? Too early to tell and I'm to crappy of a
player to find out as of this posting.
I guess it depends on whether you consider getting multiball to
collect a jackpot a mode or not. I agree with your POTC assessment,
but Heart Multiball is definitely a mode, IMO, especially since
getting the Heart Jackpot is so integral to getting the 4 Winds and
beyond and you get so punished if you don't collect the jackpot before
you drain. But IJ multiball (Wms) really makes that game suck and
pointless to play the actual modes, especially during competition.
Which is too bad because some of the modes are fun to play, but
doesn't really advance the game at all.
I guess I never considered a mode as something that HAS to have a
timed element to it, like LOTR's example you used. It could, but I
don't see how it has to. I guess I've always thought of TSPP and TZ
as games with modes, but on TZ a door panel, I guess would either be a
collection (Hitchhiker) or a mode (Sprial) but then it gets fuzzy as
to what is a mode and what is a hurry up (I understand the difference
score-wise, but is a hurry up a mode or not?). Fast Lock could be
considered all 3. A collection if you get it, a hurry up the earlier
you get it and a mode as to try to hit it as much as you can before
you drain. And completeing the Sprial isn't important at all with
getting to LITZ, as opposed to just collecting the door panel, so the
'modes' on TZ can be considered pointless as well, albeit, they tend
to pop up easily, are fun to play and can really advance your score if
you complete them or advance them, unlike IJ (as much).
I'll have to ponder this some more, as I guess it's not as clear to
me. Again, never considered the timed element to be a requirement.
Loosing all of your balls except one ends multiball so that's like
ending a mode, but I can see the other side of the argument as well,
so now I'm just thinking out loud and will do some searches on the
definition.
I also don't see how, if the game doesn't have true modes, then how
that would make the game diminish any (as with the original 24
comment).
I guess I was just thinking about David Gersic's (a guy I totally
respect) comments about Austin Powers found here:
http://www.ipdb.org/rulesheets/4504/austin-powers-rulesheet.html
"As with many recent games, Austin Powers is a mode based game.
Complete the major shots a number of times to start a mode related to
that shot." et al.
Anyway, to change the subject...
As of when we played it, you could not stack multiballs. They may
change this rule, but I can't decide if I would like to be able to
stack or not. Stacking might make the game too easy (or dang near
impossible to collect War Machine with Monger up), but I sure do love
being able to stack MB's on games like SM and BSD, so my jury's still
out on that rule as well.
Again, no matter what, it was a fun game to play and I enjoy that
theme, although theme doesn't usually play into whether I like a game
or not. Regardless, it sure was nice of Stern to invite us over as a
collective group to get our assessments.
Thanks for the things to ponder, Greg!
-Ken, CPL
www.Team-EM.com
Mickey Johnson
> that would make the game diminish any (as with the original 24
> comment).
>
mode play adds depth because it doubles what it takes to achieve the goal.
You have to earn
the right to gain the specific collection.
A good way to put it is, if you take TZ, found a way to turn on all the
modes at the same time,
that would be the same as game like BSD. They both are fun, but TZ has
more depth and personality
because you can customize the game a bit since each mode is started and
stopped on its own. Basically
each mode is a mini-game to customize the software to the table. BSD
doesn't have this, one big mode
that has multiple goals.
This is why I think stern isn't real big on modes, for the beginner player,
you need everything available to be
achieved (for example, williams IJ is a horrible beginners game because most
people don't know you need to shoot mode start to see alot of the game, they
just keep shooting the ramps forever).
But for the experienced player that wants to advance through the game like a
story, modes is the way to go by far. Its fun to see if you can achieve
each mini section of the game to get the big payoff in the end. I do know
that I have no desire to buy any newer style game without modes. The lack
of depth just makes it a mistake to buy for long term play. A game without
modes may be fun, but at that point, I would just dump 10 bucks into one at
location and probably never play it again.
thats my take anyway,
mickey