THE ENTIRE BATMAN SOFTWARE STORY
derek
had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
NIB game. He also said that 2.0 is it. Which is complete crap for
the following reasons:
1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
4. AS OF RIGHT NOW THE INSTRUCTION CARDS TO THE GAME SAY THERE ARE
TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
THE SAME THING
6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
DEREK
ldnayman
SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? WHILE YOU NEVER SAID ITS THE BEST GAME
EVER, YOU DID INSIST IT WILL NEVER LEAVE YOUR COLLECTION. ARE YOU
GOING TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY OR IS IT REALLY THAT BAREBONES?
Harry Williamson
"ldnayman" <ldna...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5ae21df7-4df7-4c88...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Steve McDevitt
"derek" <mcbla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3fb4a8df-17f3-4f29...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
dcerny
> > rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> > NIB game.
This seems to corroborate a very similar story I recently told in a
different thread. Started quite a bit of mudslinging, but seems to
have been not so outrageous after all.
hmmmm
dan c
just plain rob
While I'm not as concerned as you over Derek's future happiness, or rub his
nose in a previous comment, he does raise a great and valid point. All that
early Stern horseshit about "it's all about pinball" and the aura of being
devoted to the cause comes back into focus--when did Bally/Williams ever
release titles that were incomplete like this? (Excepting CC here)
This situation is a disgrace.
Lloyd Olson
"Steve McDevitt" <mak...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u4ednQGB8Zu6ZT3V...@comcast.com...
honda350r
How much less could Gary Stern really care? It really doesn't matter
to me because I COULDN'T care less !!
Kenbo
As a software guy for 24 years I can tell you this - the code is
finished when the manufacturer says it's finished. Unless you want to
take up a collection and pay the programmers to add more features
yourself (assuming they have Stern's permission to work on the code
after hours and assuming they even *have* after hours time).
ldnayman
>
> While I'm not as concerned as you over Derek's future happiness, or rub his
> nose in a previous comment, he does raise a great and valid point. All that
> early Stern horseshit about "it's all about pinball" and the aura of being
> devoted to the cause comes back into focus--when did Bally/Williams ever
> release titles that were incomplete like this? (Excepting CC here)
>
> This situation is a disgrace.
I disagree Rob. Stern's "it's all about pinball!" mantra has always
been about dumbing down the games, not the opposite. "Mechanical
action pinball." You hit a drop target, and it falls down. Whoopie! It
was always supposed to be about making simple games for a public that
was too stupid to enjoy deep machines.
We got spoiled by some deep software on LOTR and TSPP...God knows how
that happened. I'm guessing alot of that work was done as a labor of
love (ie for free).
But Stern's never promised anything except "pinball!" and last I
checked they've never shipped a game without pinballs in them.
Stern never hypes any of their games as the "gretaest thing ever!!!",
it's just a few assorted lunatics here that get wrapped up in every
other title before seeing a playfield picture. None of this is Stern's
fault, if their customers, the distributors, aren't complaining, they
are obviously delivering the desired product.
Paul
is no competition for him so why care. Like Gary said if he actually
did(only rumor till I hear it from Gary) He is not worried about the
home market. Maybe the Aussie, or snow mountain will pull through and
make a decent machine. I bet they will get their act together then.
Once they get some comp. I bet they will get their act together.
Please don't flame me about the Aussie cause I could care less
about that one also.
honda350r
Please tell us how much less you could care..Thanks
brokenvette
Then no one buy the next Stern game or the next or the next and see if
that makes a difference or maybe everyone should get on the horn and
call Stern. It seems like BS to me that they make promises they dont
keep but you guys keep on buying them.
Don
about his programming. He sure seemed to care in that article about
the quality of programming or was it just about himself? Making that
perfectly programmed machine that everyone would love... Hmmmm...
was it all a bunch of BS?? Is it really about the quality or keeping
the quantity coming out and keeping a job?? Look at some of the
recent Sterns such as WOF or WPT or heck, even IJ4. Those once "hot"
titles seem awfully cool these days. SM with still unfinished
software and Derek spreading rumors that "that's it" for BDK? It's
only my opinion, but it's got to get a bit better before I'm going to
shuck out the change for a NIB Stern. I know Stern has to keep the
market fresh, sell machines to stay in business, etc., but the
bitching is starting to get loud. Again just my opinion, but my guess
is there will be a bit more hesitation in the scramble for the next
release. Or maybe not...
- Don
marc_b
> is there will be a bit more hesitation in the scramble for the next
> release. Or maybe not...
>
CSI ? Oh yea, there will be a lot less scramble for that one-
regardless of software. Hopefully, when Gary is finished, he will
turn out the lights.
Twp...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Anybody who blames PLAYERS or DISTRIBUTORS is a complete idiot.
Derek said BM would ship near complete. So, how much can we believe
that THIS conversation happened?
If it's true, the fucking VULTURES are circling over the Stern
factory, believe that.
T
Bobbernickle
> Makes me reflect on that recent article in PGJ interviewing Lyman
> about his programming. He sure seemed to care in that article about
> the quality of programming or was it just about himself? Making that
> perfectly programmed machine that everyone would love... Hmmmm...
> was it all a bunch of BS?? Is it really about the quality or keeping
Most good software guys care a great deal about their code. At the
same time, nobody works for free. I don't know Lyman, but I'd be
willing to bet money that neither he nor anyone else is going invest
time to create great code for free. I'm not saying the code he has
already put into the game isn't great -- I'm talking about finishing
everything to his satisfaction. No money - no finished code. Ya
gotta eat.
IMHO the team was given so much time and so much money for the project
and they got done what they could get done within those two
constraints.
But what do I know? I'm just one of those idiot collectors.
ivan...@rcn.com
Has anyone considered asking if the public release of the source code
is an option? If Stern is so busy that they can’t finish it than
perhaps a few here may like to give it a shot. I got to believe that a
few here, based on some of the input of read over the years, have the
ability. I’d bet that some of you would jump at the chance provided
you can write code. Perhaps someone knows someone who would at least
look at it. Think of the end result, you could make it do what ever
you want within reason. You could share/sell to your friends or
whatever. Could this be the beginning of a new market? Would Stern
reject such a request? It is however for personal use.
Just a thought, that’s what I’d do if I really cared. I’m the happy
owner of Spider Man with ver. 1.9 and couldn’t be happier.
Ivan
Allentown,Pa
ssunite...@gmail.com
FritzThePin
mystery is 500k everytime.
call it the 500k shot.. done . then i wont wonder what "firey death"
might mean in a finished game.
until then. i shake my fist at thee, Stern pinball
shake my fist and put more quarters into your lame games..
f&I(ckin stern
ZandoZan
Bravo! Really living up to expectations.
Looks like that picture I posted of TDK was right on the money.
LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLO
ssunite...@gmail.com
I can tell you that Stern would not even remotely entertain public
release of their software... It is proprietary, for one... The other
reason is you could have anyone make some code up for a game that
causes it to self destruct at some point due to miss programming or
oversight.
The box says Stern on it, why would they want the liability...
Or the possibility of their name being tarnished.
If you want to write software for Stern that becomes a sanctioned
release, you will need to work for them in some way....
Andrew
Mike
> Has anyone considered asking if the public release of the source code
> is an option? If Stern is so busy that they can’t finish it than
> perhaps a few here may like to give it a shot.
I think that is a bad idea. Ultimately, some computer hack would
create an image of Batman giving Robin a dirty sanchez, the code would
leak out and end up on ebay, the comic book company would sue the crap
out of Stern, and pinball would be done. A vicious cycle.
Seriously, stuff would get out that Stern wouldn't want to get out
there, kind of like the profanity ROMs for T-2. ONly difference here
is that Stern is still around to both give a shit as well as suffer
the consequences from their license. While they own the rights to
produce a Batman pinball, they also have the responsibility to protray
said license in a certain light.
As far as finished/unfinished code debate, I agree with Ivan. Let's
give Spidey a rest. The only people complaining are the pinball
people. Nobody is walking up to me at a location and saying "hey
douchehead, give me back my 75 cents because the animations in Doc Ock
mode aren't finished". I mean, come on... is it really that bad?
There was soooooooooooo much stuff from Williams that ended
unfinished, bugged, well beyond where Stern leaves stuff. Heck, all
of the WPC-95 games have that annoying random buzz noise that was
never corrected that gives you a heart attack whenever it happens.
Not to mention Cactus Canyon (unfinished), Indy 500 (very buggy),
ToTan (EB blackout when certain switches dont work). Hell, they could
have thrown in a naked pic of Carrie Fisher in SWE1 somewhere to make
it at least a little interesting.
-Mike
Urstillaway
If Stern doesn't care about the HUO buyer then he has a problem
becasue I would say a fair number of their machines are just that now.
I don't see pinball machines all over my town in arcades. I see far
more video games than pins. I can certainly do without NIB HUO pins if
he can do without me. I am not going to pay 4G's for something the
manufacturer doesn;t appreciate me buying! If my BDK shows up and
isn't what I feel is worth my 4G's, I'll sell it and not buy another
one. And this will be my fourth NIB Sterns. So Mr. Sterns might be
careful what is says.
For 4G's I can get a lot of entertainment for me and my family besides
pinball!
J. Weaver Jr.
of the interns a couple bucks to edit the instruction card so that it
doesn't promise modes they're not going to deliver.
I've already sold one Stern machine (Mono) because it wasn't finished. I
decided not to buy a couple of other Stern machines because the code was
too rugged. I took a chance on FGY, which turned out OK, but it was
looking a little rocky there at first.
Yeah, I'm just one guy. But, their "ship it, then finish it" policy has
cost 'em almost $10K in sales from me alone. And now, with it getting
harder and harder to find a _finished_ machine on location to "try
before I buy", not only is another outright sale less likely, but me
putting quarters in location machines to make the ops money is less
likely as well.
It's not a strategy any company can maintain for the long haul, in _any_
industry. -JW
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Kevin L'Heureux
Looks to me like they were done with the game before they even started!
I'll be going back to buying all WMS games again myself. Lots of great
older gems out there to play.
milt
>
> As a software guy for 24 years I can tell you this - the code is
> finished when the manufacturer says it's finished. Unless you want to
> take up a collection and pay the programmers to add more features
> yourself (assuming they have Stern's permission to work on the code
> after hours and assuming they even *have* after hours time).
Finally, someone making sense! Just because a game doesn't have "X,Y,Z"
feature does NOT make it unfinished because perhaps that games was never
going to have that to begin with!
milt
>
> Anybody who blames PLAYERS or DISTRIBUTORS is a complete idiot.
> Derek said BM would ship near complete. So, how much can we believe
> that THIS conversation happened?
> If it's true, the fucking VULTURES are circling over the Stern
> factory, believe that.
>
> T
So what does that make anyone that believes Derek?
black...@skynet.be
> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
> batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> NIB game. He also said that 2.0 is it. Which is complete crap for
> the following reasons:
> 1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
> 2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
> 3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
> 4. AS OF RIGHT NOW THE INSTRUCTION CARDS TO THE GAME SAY THERE ARE
> TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
> 5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
> THE SAME THING
> 6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
> DEREK
I don't want to bash at anyone but it's the same story actually where
conflicts happen...
A friend of mine said... I maybe could believe it if you've talked to
Gary yourself Derek.
I really don't believe Gary couldn't care less about the Home Users.
Gary is an adapt business man adn no way he would say such a thing.
Gary has a hart for pinball and I believe he loves to see some of his
games going straight to homes and are loved by collectors.
On the other hand I can see the fact why he COULD say such a thing.
Imagine daily phonecalls from collectors nagging about the software
from SM and WoF. Some are yanking about IJ that they've nearly played
on location but hey I've heard it on RGP that it sucks because it
isn't a deep ruleset??? Now BDK is nearly one month old, lots of
updates have followed since then and yet you're calling him to ask for
software? Come on guys, I think if you called Microsoft with their
first version of Vista they also couldn't care less cause you've
bought it already(and that's way worse).
If everybody stopped bitching at Stern and maybe could give them a
REST and have a little PATIENCE, the games could be finished at their
own pace. And they will be finished no matter what. But only time will
tell when.
I know there's an update coming for IJ and I'll wait for it till it's
on their website. I really enjoy the game the way it is now and
looking forward to what changes the sofware can bring to this good
game! :))
I'm sick of these thread everyday actually, don't panic, more will
follow! FGy had tons of updates, TSPP had even an update after 4years
or so. Be patient...
The casual player wouldn't even notice some of the things so again
it's good enough for on location but the Home buyer wants to see
more(as always). But do understand that it needs some time.
The next pin is scheduled for January so a lot of time for a lot of
updates.
Or maybe the pin for january will be completely finished? We'll see!
Franck from France
Sorry to say this but I do think it !!!
The bdk film was out in theatres, BDK pinball was ready (but with an
early software) Operators buy the pin and put in in location
especially cinema and theatres. It is as simple it' s buisness.
I met gary a few times, he really love pinball and is a good buisness
man.
Now we have some home pin buyer' s complaining about the fact that the
code isn' t finished and wonder if Lyman is working a lot ?
Why does home pin buyers want the 2.0 or 2.5 code before the
operators ??
As we can see, pin software tends to improve with the time and bugs
fixed..... I can also understand the frustration of an home pin buyer
to have a product finished in the hardware but not in the soft, the
word is patience that s true, just wait the things to be done and not
blame on stern for that.
just plain rob
> I disagree Rob. Stern's "it's all about pinball!" mantra has always
> been about dumbing down the games, not the opposite. "Mechanical
> action pinball." You hit a drop target, and it falls down. Whoopie! It
> was always supposed to be about making simple games for a public that
> was too stupid to enjoy deep machines.
>
> We got spoiled by some deep software on LOTR and TSPP...God knows how
> that happened. I'm guessing alot of that work was done as a labor of
> love (ie for free).
>
> But Stern's never promised anything except "pinball!" and last I
> checked they've never shipped a game without pinballs in them.
>
> Stern never hypes any of their games as the "gretaest thing ever!!!",
> it's just a few assorted lunatics here that get wrapped up in every
> other title before seeing a playfield picture. None of this is Stern's
> fault, if their customers, the distributors, aren't complaining, they
> are obviously delivering the desired product.
OK, but I don't think they're lunatics if they expect the whole experience of
old. I'll disagree at this "juncture": the game can be physically simpler
(which I think is better overall, personally), but the software can't be
unfinished as a reason or excuse to keep it simple. We didn't get spoiled if
they themselves decided to raise the bar. If they want to dumb-down the
experience now, it's critical how they do it.
Stern has the capability and hired talent of completing software and as they
have anted up in the multi-media game production of 90s pinballs, they
should fully deliver--or be called out for it, which Derek did, as a cash-
in-hand customer. You can't have ink on the playfield and then no software
to support the concept--there's no excuse for this.
And now to comment on 3rd-hand info: if it is true GS couldn't care less what
pinheads here think, add my cheeks to azpins' kissing booth.
llabrevlis
>
> - Show quoted text -
All we've heard about over the past 5 years or so, is how tough and
marginal the pinball manufacturing business is, do you really think
that the head guy is going to tell ANYONE, that he doesn't care about
a substantial portion of his market!!!!! How substantial, only the
distributors really know for sure, maybe those that have influence
with them can find out,
but even if home sales only count for 10%, that can be the difference
between profit and loss on a title!
This code business is simply getting out of hand though now, and it is
completely understandable that some of the you NIB buyers are pissed
off!! However, the pattern now seems established, get a certain # of
games out within a certain amount of time, ship them with as complete
a software as possible by a certain date, finish the software
whenever? I really don't have a big problem with this approach, as
long as the code DOES eventually get finished. By finished, I mean
all lights, switches and apparatus function as they indicate they
should, and the narrative (if there is one) makes sense. The only
unfinished game out there should be CC!! (crossing fingers, not
forever)
Stern appears committed to turning out new titles, it looks like 24,
CSI, and Transformers are set, I just hope they are equally committed
to finishing what they started.
Dale
CornCob
> >> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> >> had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
> >> batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> >> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> >> NIB game. He also said that 2.0 is it. Which is complete crap for
> >> the following reasons:
> >> 1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
> >> 2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
> >> 3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
> >> 4. AS OF RIGHT NOW THE INSTRUCTION CARDS TO THE GAME SAY THERE ARE
> >> TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
> >> 5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
> >> THE SAME THING
> >> 6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
> >> DEREK
>
> > EVER, YOU DID INSIST IT WILL NEVER LEAVE YOUR COLLECTION. ARE YOU
> > GOING TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY OR IS IT REALLY THAT BAREBONES?
>
> While I'm not as concerned as you over Derek's future happiness, or rub his
> nose in a previous comment, he does raise a great and valid point. All that
> early Stern horseshit about "it's all about pinball" and the aura of being
> devoted to the cause comes back into focus--when did Bally/Williams ever
> release titles that were incomplete like this? (Excepting CC here)
>
> This situation is a disgrace.
Of course CC was there last original platform game - not that this is
any kind of analogy to Sterns business ;)
Kind of disappointing that Gary would openly say that to a purchaser
of one of his games. Perhaps the credit crunch is harder on
manufacturing like pinball machines forcing them to move on to other
titles?
Ping
derek
> On 12 Aug, 03:43, just plain rob <pinba...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ldnayman wrote:
> > > On Aug 11, 10:17 pm, derek <mcblack...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> > >> batman. Basically Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
>
> - Show quoted text -
Guys,
I would not put out this info unless i had a solid source. My buddy
that talked to gary is my best friend. gary called him last week, but
he did not get a chance to talk to him until yesterday. i wish we
could put him on the pin the radio or something so you could all hear
what gary had to say to him. Let's put it this way it is not good for
us the home collector. I have been supporting stern ever since RCT.
Buying almost every game that comes out, but what they have done with
the past four titles is an outrage. Gary should be ashamed of
himself. I have not posted that much on the game until now and I wish
I could tell you it was bogus, but I can not.
derek
skbrothers
Well said Levi!
Simply put, it seems like Sterns "Hay Day", as far as us hardcore
pinball enthusiasts go was right around the time of TSPP and LOTR.
Those two titles alone converted many Williams/Bally purists and had
many thinking Stern was heading the right direction in an erroding
marketplace.
Flash forward to todays most recent Stern releases and we now have the
feeling that a corner is being turned....and not for the better
either. :-(
Although I don't like hearing that Gary Stern could give two craps
about me as a pinball collector, I think that statement (If true)
could have been taken out of context.
Home Collectors are an expanding base of business for Stern, but my
guess is that Operators still represent the bulk of his livelyhood.
If the economy continues to tank, the first segment of the marketplace
that will quit buying new pinball machines will be the home market.
The operators would slow their new machine purchases but would likely
not dip as drastically as the home market.
All this being true, it doesn't take an idiot to understand Gary's
position on creating ultradeep rulesets for the home market.
The only thing important to Gary's primary customer "The Operator" is
the cash box!!!
WHAT FILLS THE CASH BOX?
Ultra deep rulesets?
or
The Latest Greatest Theme on the backglass?
Can you blame Gary for making a tough business decision in a tough
economy?
Steve
Ozricman
about stern was the bad flipper switches on Sopranos and Elvis or the
florescent light bulb in the back glass instead of a complex light
show.
azpinlawyer
How about using all the inserts on the playfield?
lightguy
> They couldn't even bother to finish the Batman webpage on their site.
> Looks to me like they were done with the game before they even started!
>
> I'll be going back to buying all WMS games again myself. Lots of great
> older gems out there to play.
Agree fully.
I have 2 Sterns FG and TSPP. Both good games but not B/Williams feel.
I did my bit now back to finding that SC.
Kyle Wren
says...
>
>While I'm not as concerned as you over Derek's future happiness, or rub his
>nose in a previous comment, he does raise a great and valid point. All that
>early Stern horseshit about "it's all about pinball" and the aura of being
>devoted to the cause comes back into focus--when did Bally/Williams ever
>release titles that were incomplete like this? (Excepting CC here)
Not to get in the middle of this (as tempting as it may be as I have certainly
picked on Derek in the past), but dragging CC 1.0 into this (as compared to TDK
0.5) is not even a close comparison. Missing audio on the match sequence and a
missing "Bionic Bart" do not come close to equating to a game that shipped with
feature lights on the playfield that didn't even light up(?!).
I am a huge fan of Stern as I want to see continued new pinball machines made,
and I understand it may be cost prohibitive for them to coddle each and every
NIB buyer out there (just imagine what they spend in wasted time talking on the
phone to Derek and others about what the next release will be, etc). But even
the location players deserve better than TDK 0.5. The fact that it is easy to
update will never matter to the hundreds of location machines that will never
see the business end of a USB flash drive. Location players that care beyond 1
or 2 quarters will always wonder why they can never get the bottom half of the
playfield to light up... :-(
--
Kyle Wren - CARGPB #27
"Worst... Ball... EVER!!"
Jonny_eh
> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> NIB game. He also said that 2.0 is it. Which is complete crap for
> the following reasons:
> 1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
> 2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
> 3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
> 4. AS OF RIGHT NOW THE INSTRUCTION CARDS TO THE GAME SAY THERE ARE
> TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
> 5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
> THE SAME THING
> 6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
> DEREK
Why do I get the feeling that Derek is making this up in order to bait
someone from Stern to give us some info? He's obviously impatient and
rash enough to pull something like that off.
If you're gonna make big claims like this, provide some evidence, not
"a friend spoke to Stern". What's your friend's name? Why was he
speaking to Stern? Why would Stern say something to him? Can you tell
us anything that can be verified by someone else?
John in WI
seymour-shabow
>
> Why do I get the feeling that Derek is making this up in order to bait
> someone from Stern to give us some info? He's obviously impatient and
> rash enough to pull something like that off.
>
> If you're gonna make big claims like this, provide some evidence, not
> "a friend spoke to Stern". What's your friend's name? Why was he
> speaking to Stern? Why would Stern say something to him? Can you tell
> us anything that can be verified by someone else?
A friend of his did speak to Stern. If he wants to speak up he will.
If I were he I wouldn't though because frankly it's not anyone here's
business.
-scott CARGPB#29
LJ MacLean
"John in WI" <jhe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:147e6$48a19e2c$30...@news.teranews.com...
Steven
a 'my best friend was called by Gary and was told it's finished'! Not
when the same source told us that BDK would ship with almost complete
software (was that a buddy too, who told you that?). It might be true,
but I DON'T BELIEVE ALL THESE CAPITAL WRITTEN LINES. Come on... told
you before... nobody will take me seriously when I shout all the time.
And 'a friend of mine told me....' is not the best source either.
I just hope it's not true. I can hardly imagine it is, as Gary Stern
said that 50% of the sales went to home buyers... what you tell us,
just doesn't make any sense!
Old School Al
mnpinball
Just heard Pat Lawlor walked out on them and said it's done.
Many bad things it sounds like going on over there.
If they think BDK is complete as it sits they won't be around another
year.
Not just my opinion but MANY peoples opinion that may not want to post
here.
If you want to stand around and see how it pans out, don't as it may
be to late.
Your opinion counts and should be heard, call or email joe.blackwell @
sternpinball.com and gary.stern @ sternpinball.com
The collector/home share holds probably a 50% market share.
Jack has not sold a Batman in 10 days, the code issue is a huge
problem. The game is not finished.
If lights don't light, modes don't work, final battle mode doesn't
start, scorecards say something that doesn't happen it's not done !!
This will effect current and all future sales.
Old School Al
> I don't want to bash at anyone but it's the same story actually where
> conflicts happen...
> A friend of mine said... I maybe could believe it if you've talked to
> Gary yourself Derek.
> I really don't believe Gary couldn't care less about the Home Users.
> Gary is an adapt business man adn no way he would say such a thing.
> Gary has a hart for pinball and I believe he loves to see some of his
> games going straight to homes and are loved by collectors.
If you were in attendance at the EXPO banquet a couple years Gary
spoke that night. He made one very telling statement that supports his
attitude about home buyers. he said "Go out and play pinball on
location" and made an emphasis on this point. He loves pinball but the
home market doesn't add up to much, at least in his estimation. It
makes sense as the bulk of his games are sold to distributors but it
is also shot-sighted IMO. In that once these games come off route if
the operator can''t sell them for a decent price or at all(due to lack
of interest in incomplete coding on games) then what is his incentive
to continue to buy pins that he will be stuck with?
Jonny_eh
So Pat's gonna just retire? What a shame.
What do you want people to tell Stern? If he is having money problems
(as an example), how is bitching at him gonna fix it? If he gave a
crap about pinball fans, he'd be reading RGP anyways.
mnpinball
Well let's all hope expo will not repeat itself as in Oct. 1999.
Gomez is the speaker at this years banquet.
If someone has the balls (Greg Davis) maybe we should all ask at the
banquet what the code issue is.
Might be standing room only for it.
azpinlawyer
That's the problem, those folks are hiding from us. They won't say
squat. If we're so unimportant, why don't they man-up and tell us to
go take a hike? They can't have it both ways. What they're doing is
cowardly. It's bullshit. And I'm finished with them.
milt
>
> Of course CC was there last original platform game - not that this is
> any kind of analogy to Sterns business ;)
>
> Kind of disappointing that Gary would openly say that to a purchaser
> of one of his games. Perhaps the credit crunch is harder on
> manufacturing like pinball machines forcing them to move on to other
> titles?
>
> Ping
How do we know he actually said that?
PinballGeek
game did in fact ship with the software near complete. If it only
took a week to go from 0.6 to 2.0, imagine what he could do with two
more weeks?
I just don't see how they can have so much time between games, release
software that is so limited, and within a week make such huge strides
and a final release. What was Lyman doing between WoF and BDK? He
certainly wasn't updating the SM code or the WoF code.
Robert Harris
On Aug 11, 10:55 pm, Twp1...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 11, 11:42 pm, Don <dlhen...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Makes me reflect on that recent article in PGJ interviewing Lyman
> > about his programming. He sure seemed to care in that article about
> > the quality of programming or was it just about himself? Making that
> > perfectly programmed machine that everyone would love... Hmmmm...
> > was it all a bunch of BS?? Is it really about the quality or keeping
> > the quantity coming out and keeping a job?? Look at some of the
> > recent Sterns such as WOF or WPT or heck, even IJ4. Those once "hot"
> > titles seem awfully cool these days. SM with still unfinished
> > software and Derek spreading rumors that "that's it" for BDK? It's
> > only my opinion, but it's got to get a bit better before I'm going to
> > shuck out the change for a NIB Stern. I know Stern has to keep the
> > market fresh, sell machines to stay in business, etc., but the
> > bitching is starting to get loud. Again just my opinion, but my guess
> > is there will be a bit more hesitation in the scramble for the next
> > release. Or maybe not...
>
> > - Don
>
> > On Aug 11, 11:05 pm, brokenvette <zr11...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > Then no one buy the next Stern game or the next or the next and see if
> > > that makes a difference or maybe everyone should get on the horn and
> > > call Stern. It seems like BS to me that they make promises they dont
> > > keep but you guys keep on buying them.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
seymour-shabow
> To be fair, since it took Lyman about 1 more week to make 2.0, the
> game did in fact ship with the software near complete. If it only
> took a week to go from 0.6 to 2.0, imagine what he could do with two
> more weeks?
>
> I just don't see how they can have so much time between games, release
> software that is so limited, and within a week make such huge strides
> and a final release. What was Lyman doing between WoF and BDK? He
> certainly wasn't updating the SM code or the WoF code.
>
Maybe he was adding things to the entirely new operating system he wrote
for the new platform, so that future software development could go faster?
I'd bet that Lyman does not have a lot of downtime at Stern......
-scott CARGPB#29
cpiel
> How do we know he actually said that?
Exact words can get lost in translation of course, but the general
message is accurate. I know the source and it's credible.
Bryan Kelly
I will say, after preordering Batman and seeing all the code issues
now coming up, it's the last time.
Thankfully, I'm not a serious player and some of these code issues
don't bother me. POTC is fine for me and so is SM. They're still fun
to play.
However, if obvious code issues with Batman are not addressed, I will
never buy another Stern until I'm able to play the pin and am able to
see the code is finished enough to make the game enjoyable.
In my case, I buy a different pin to keep things fresh in the
gameroom. Up until now, those new pins have been Sterns. From now
on, I may have to go back to the Williams/Bally titles.
I'm not overly particular where my pinball money goes, but if Gary
Stern doesn't want it, that's fine.
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
cpiel
The real question is "Did he mean it?" or did he say it to get people
to just back off. If the latter, it would have been easier and
smarter to just say, "Look, we're doing the best we can given our
operating constraints but the code will continue to be updated as our
scheudle and resources allow". To state that "it is finished" in such
a primitive state does nothing but cause backlash from the customers
and I'd imagine from the code writers as well.
davep...@aol.com
If i was Gary i'd tell all you collectors that if you can do a better
job and have the $$ to open a factory then do it more power to
you..It's his buiness and it will be run and done his way period..The
real money is on location not in some collectors home set on free
play..TDK is Done..Finished..No more..Time to move on to the next title
Bryan Kelly
BULLSHIT!!!!
I'm not sure how much pull Jack at Pinball Sales has at Stern, but
unless things change, I'll be spending my pin money elsewhere.
Bryan (CARGPB 14)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/bspins
Home of the EXECUTIVE Pin Footie http://www.pinfooties.com
cpiel
> If i was Gary i'd tell all you collectors that if you can do a better
> job and have the $$ to open a factory then do it more power to
> you..It's his buiness and it will be run and done his way period..The
> real money is on location not in some collectors home set on free
> play..TDK is Done..Finished..No more..Time to move on to the next title.
Of course it's his business, but shrewd business men like Gary do not
intentially drive their revenue down by knowingly alienating a
significant portion of their market. If it turns out that he truely
"doesn't care", then he knows something we don't.
MRG
Don't forget Stern has some redemption games in the works. I'am sure
those games take designers and programers.
CornCob
I don't know what to believe any more - look Batmans not even up on
Sterns site yet so of course it can't be done?
Ping
marc_b
> On Aug 11, 9:42 pm, Don <dlhen...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Most good software guys care a great deal about their code. At the
> same time, nobody works for free. I don't know Lyman, but I'd be
> willing to bet money that neither he nor anyone else is going invest
> time to create great code for free. I'm not saying the code he has
> already put into the game isn't great -- I'm talking about finishing
> everything to his satisfaction. No money - no finished code. Ya
> gotta eat.
>
I don't know. I'm willing to bet my LOTR that Keith offered up that
latest update on TSPP, and perhaps the final one on LOTR, as a result
of his efforts on his OWN time. He's seems to have a lot of passion
for his programming and games and I think they all do much of this on
their own nickel. Gary S doesn't sound like he cares much, and is not
going to pay for it.
My hat is off to KJ. LOTR and TSPP are truly Stern's best work EVER
(early '80's notwithstanding)
marc_b
davep...@aol.com
Time for SEGA to buy back what they sold to Stern..And then have
Mr.Toy Playfeild Pouplator "ritchie" and Mr. Widebody "lawlor" along
with artist "Youssi"..To open up a WWMS factory and get it right again
kirb
> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
> batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> NIB game. He also said that 2.0 is it. Which is complete crap for
> the following reasons:
> 1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
> 2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
> 3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
> 4. AS OF RIGHT NOW THE INSTRUCTION CARDS TO THE GAME SAY THERE ARE
> TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
> 5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
> THE SAME THING
> 6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
> DEREK
Sorry Derek, but you boiling down your conversation with Gary Stern to
say: "Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
NIB game." is not giving the man credit and is really a low blow move,
IMHO.
Your bias is showing. You ~cannot~ ....let me repeat that....~cannot~
be objective with your discussion. You called to bitch about a rumor
you heard and you are hearing what you want from him. Don't trash Gary
Stern here with your opinions. You shot your rep in the foot the day
you started with your wash-rinse-repeat bullshit.
Let's rewind a little- didn't someone ask Joe B if SM was code was
complete? Didn't he say "no more updates"? Didn't they release another
code update after that conversation? I can't remember, but you have
such a inside on Stern you should be able to shed some light.
Having you represent the hobbiest to Stern is like Sharpton
representing the entire African/American race. Everyone looking at
each other wondering when this guy will STFU.
Kirb
Rick Swanson
> NIB game...
I've always scratched my head a little wondering why folks pre-order
games, or, for that matter, buy NIB games without first playing the
title. Some titles a person is going to like... some titles they are
not. Good theme and good artwork is not always going to be an
accurate indicator of the sophistication / fun of gameplay. Maybe
that is really what Gary was trying to convey to your buddy? Sort of
a... "Put a few quarters in one at your local arcade and give it a
test drive before you buy one".
The way I see it, just because the buyer is disappointed with a game
doesn't mean the manufacturer is obligated to enhance the game to the
point where that buyer is no longer disappointed.
Rick Swanson
Lloyd Olson
Inaccurate.
"derek" <mcbla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:af45ebf4-ad43-49a2...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Guys,
I would not put out this info unless i had a solid source. My buddy
that talked to gary is my best friend. gary called him last week, but
he did not get a chance to talk to him until yesterday. i wish we
could put him on the pin the radio or something so you could all hear
what gary had to say to him. Let's put it this way it is not good for
us the home collector. I have been supporting stern ever since RCT.
Buying almost every game that comes out, but what they have done with
the past four titles is an outrage. Gary should be ashamed of
himself. I have not posted that much on the game until now and I wish
I could tell you it was bogus, but I can not.
derek
Lloyd Olson
figures on the IPDB. LTG :)
<davep...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:84e5ed0d-5581-496b...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
jesse...@comcast.net
pays off and it was all worth it, sometimes you get burned 500.00
bucks and sell the game.. I admit I have fun with the gamble.. Common
sense would certainly have someone test drive a machine before
purchase.. However on your other note., I don't feel anyone is looking
for simple enhancements, they're looking for a finished product, if
you bought a car and it came without tires, you'd be pissed, tires
aren't 'enhancements'...they complete the product. I will say I'm
done with preordering at this point... I'm also a Stern fan and will
continue to buy thier products but will wait now till they're
complete..
Jonny_eh
> I would not put out this info unless i had a solid source. My buddy
> that talked to gary is my best friend. gary called him last week, but
> he did not get a chance to talk to him until yesterday. i wish we
> could put him on the pin the radio or something so you could all hear
> what gary had to say to him. Let's put it this way it is not good for
> us the home collector. I have been supporting stern ever since RCT.
> Buying almost every game that comes out, but what they have done with
> the past four titles is an outrage. Gary should be ashamed of
> himself. I have not posted that much on the game until now and I wish
> I could tell you it was bogus, but I can not.
> derek
I trust Derek's word as far as I can through a widebody pin. I've
never seen him accurate on anything. He's like the National Enquirer
of pinball.
Old School Al
<snip>
> Sorry Derek, but you boiling down your conversation with Gary Stern to
> say: "Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> NIB game." is not giving the man credit and is really a low blow move,
> IMHO.
>
> Kirb
Refer to my post a bit ealier. Gary Stern did indeed say he wants you
playing/supporting location games. That is where the survival of
pinball is, not the home market, was basically his gist at EXPO a
couple years ago. No speculation, he said it for all to hear that
night. It's not that Gary doesn't like collectors, IMO, he is just in
business and that's that.
Lloyd Olson
a pool at Stern. Buck a head, see who can guess how long it takes for derek
to run to RGP, post what ever he heard, and also a side pool on how many
posts get added to the thread until we go out of our frikken minds ?
If I was at Stern, I'd have a hard time not having fun with this. LTG :)
"derek" <mcbla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3fb4a8df-17f3-4f29...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
> batman. Basiclly Gary could care less of us the collectors and would
> rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
ChrisWoodruff
>
> But Stern's never promised anything except "pinball!" and last I
> checked they've never shipped a game without pinballs in them.
>
LOL - That's exactly right IMHO.
"Hey, it's only pinball!"
Chris
Old School Al
News link to EXPO 2006. Scroll down about 3/4 way and start reading
just below the pic of Joe giving Gary the picture. That will tell you
all you need to know about how Gary views pinball and those who play
and buy them.
Kenbo
wrote:
[...]
> I don't feel anyone is looking
>for simple enhancements, they're looking for a finished product, if
>you bought a car and it came without tires, you'd be pissed, tires
>aren't 'enhancements'...they complete the product.
Maybe the auto industry model would work.
A lot of new vehicles have blank plates where options would go if the
cheap buyer would pay for them.
Stern could have a "blank plate" where the software should go, and
charge extra for options. When a non-existent mode starts they could
flash "This mode intentionally left blank" on the DMD.
kirb
Location play is where it's at. I do agree 100%. You need operators
buying pinball and trying to develop a player base to stay in biz. I
get that. I do play on location when there is a pinball to play on
location. Right now, the only stern on location is at the airport. I
only get to play on outbound flights (and I do- last time I put about
an hour into a FGY before leaving for Mexico).
Saying that Stern could care less of collectors is misleading if not
outright lies. That is why Derek can't be objective. He twisted the
conversation to suit his agenda and we all know it's bunk.
Kirb
kirb
> Sitting here contemplating this. Part of me does wonder if they are running
> a pool at Stern. Buck a head, see who can guess how long it takes for derek
> to run to RGP, post what ever he heard, and also a side pool on how many
> posts get added to the thread until we go out of our frikken minds ?
>
> If I was at Stern, I'd have a hard time not having fun with this. LTG :)
Korn proved the sweet spot was around 15-20 minutes....
Kirb
Rick Swanson
> ....if you bought a car and it came without tires, you'd be pissed, tires
> aren't 'enhancements'...they complete the product.
I suspect that 99.9% of the operators around the world who bought TBK
to put on route believe they received a complete product. If it
showed up without legs, well, that would be a different matter.
Rick Swanson
OldTimer
"Rick Swanson" <rns...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:6d61c146-6d9f-4fbf...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 11, 10:17 pm, derek <mcblack...@verizon.net> wrote:
> ... <Gary> would rather have us putting quarters in a game on location
> then buying a
> NIB game...
I've always scratched my head a little wondering why folks pre-order
games, or, for that matter, buy NIB games without first playing the
title. Some titles a person is going to like... some titles they are
not. Good theme and good artwork is not always going to be an
accurate indicator of the sophistication / fun of gameplay. Maybe
that is really what Gary was trying to convey to your buddy? Sort of
a... "Put a few quarters in one at your local arcade and give it a
test drive before you buy one".
-I live near Wash DC and you simply can't find pinballs to play anymore.
At all. There's a bar in Fairfax that has a nice set of Wms titles but no
new Sterns I believe.
So to many people that don't have a friendly distributor near them they may
have no alternative.
I agree though - maybe at least hold out untill some "reviews" roll down the
pike ;-)
I also think some just like the be "the first" here on rgp and report on the
game with pics, etc... don't know if that is worth 4K but to each his own.
The way I see it, just because the buyer is disappointed with a game
doesn't mean the manufacturer is obligated to enhance the game to the
point where that buyer is no longer disappointed.
- Sure but I suppose you would have to balance that with claims of "800
voice calls" in the ads for SM and ending up with maybe eighty ;-)
Rick Swanson
Lloyd Olson
here about playfields and even whole cabinets replaced.
No other coin op manufacturer has ever stood behind their product like Stern
does. And for the collector/hobby too. I've never seen support like that to
ops from any manufacturer. LTG :)
"kirb" <kirb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fc18a522-33af-4151...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Saying that Stern could care less of collectors is misleading if not
outright lies.
Kirb
azpinlawyer
Dollars to donuts he doesn't show up at Expo 2008. He'll be playing
golf with Neil Nicastro.
mnpinball
> Stern has bent over backwards here with tech support and help. We've read
> here about playfields and even whole cabinets replaced.
>
> No other coin op manufacturer has ever stood behind their product like Stern
> does. And for the collector/hobby too. I've never seen support like that to
> ops from any manufacturer. LTG :)
>
>
> news:fc18a522-33af-4151...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Saying that Stern could care less of collectors is misleading if not
> outright lies.
>
> Kirb
So all the software development money went to the warranty dept !?!
So the home collectors ARE hurting Stern.
Lloyd Olson
could be a problem.
And there may be no easy answer.
And I've always felt a strong industry, helps the hobby. Cheap source of
games and parts.
Take away the industry, and prices soar. Very limited production games won't
be cheap, very limited production parts won't be cheap, and no good source
of used games. A collector buys a new pinball machine for $8K, uses it for a
year and then wants to sell it and buy a different one, the collector will
want to get the $8K or close to it. They won't absorb the commercial loss of
50% to 75%.
And a company only has so much capital to work with. If resources are
directed in one area, then there might be resources taken from others.
And any help to the hobby can actually be costing play on location as
hobbyists play at home.
So the hobby may very well be hurting ops and location play, in more ways
than one.
You think I haven't thought over that even my helping someone here, hasn't
hurt an op somewhere ?
No easy answers. LTG
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9d0985c6-de83-4d16...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Kyle Wren
azpinlawyer says...
He's invited us into his "home" for the last 7 Expos in a row, and let hundreds
of pingeeks disrupt his production for a whole day while doing it. Gary is no
whimp, he will be seen at Expo plenty and answering questions. That we may not
like the answers could be the case, but I've never seen him avoiding questions
asked of him.
Don't confuse Gary with Wayne who has never had the motivation to show up at
Expo, for whatever reason... :-)
--
Kyle Wren - CARGPB #27
"Worst... Ball... EVER!!"
Bowen Kerins
> Makes me reflect on that recent article in PGJ interviewing Lyman
> about his programming. He sure seemed to care in that article about
> the quality of programming or was it just about himself? Making that
> perfectly programmed machine that everyone would love... Hmmmm...
> was it all a bunch of BS?? Is it really about the quality or keeping
> the quantity coming out and keeping a job?? Look at some of the
> recent Sterns such asWOFor WPT or heck, even IJ4. Those once "hot"
> titles seem awfully cool these days. SM with still unfinished
> software and Derek spreading rumors that "that's it" for BDK? It's
> only my opinion, but it's got to get a bit better before I'm going to
> shuck out the change for a NIB Stern. I know Stern has to keep the
> market fresh, sell machines to stay in business, etc., but the
> bitching is starting to get loud. Again just my opinion, but my guess
> is there will be a bit more hesitation in the scramble for the next
> release. Or maybe not...
These "unfinished" Stern games still have about as much time and
energy and code and detail as many "finished" Wms games. To say that
Spider-man has some level of unfinished software is really nitpicking
-- what is it, some animation? All the rules are there now. The
earlier Spidey versions didn't have Super Hero programmed yet, and now
it's there.
What do you guys want?? Do you want ambitious projects? Do you want
more games rolling off the line like Shrek? Because that game
probably still sold alright, even though it's a carbon copy of Family
Guy. If there is any outcome to this bitching, it won't be Stern
giving its programmers more time to work on these projects so that 1.0
is a complete, wonderful game. It will be Stern cutting back on the
programming goals for a game so that 1.0 is a complete, cookie-cutter-
rules game.
I'd say enjoy what you're getting from these interesting "unfinished"
games, unless you want to start seeing software that really can be
programmed start-to-finish in six weeks.
- Bowen
davep...@aol.com
No shit man..I second that...
Old School Al
hardware platform came out this seems to have become an issue and
what's funny is that it is far easier to do the updates using USB than
the old system of ROMs yet they appear not want to do all the updates
needed. Makes no sense.
Agreed that SM is fine btw, what it lacks is inconsequential and the
game is very enjoyable.
metallik
> squat. If we're so unimportant, why don't they man-up and tell us to
> go take a hike? They can't have it both ways. What they're doing is
> cowardly. It's bullshit. And I'm finished with them.
Of course they're hiding from you. They're a manufacturer, not a
retail establishment. They have distributors to handle complainers
like you. You know, the people you willingly gave thousands of
dollars to in exchange for a game? If the machine is unsatisfactory,
bitch to THEM. You have no business relationship with Stern. If you
don't like Stern's products, stop buying them. It's that simple.
Sell the TDK, or demand a refund, but for God's sake, leave Stern
alone already. I'm really starting to think Gary's attitude towards
RGP is heavily influenced by the amount of whining he's had to deal
with this year. Ops buy games in bulk, know how to maintain them
(more or less) and are easy customers. "Collectors" buy single
machines, bitch when there are minor cosmetic blemishes on the games,
demand PF or cab swaps for said blemishes, tie up support lines with
basic questions, and nowadays tie up support lines complaining about
code issues. Gee, who would YOU want to sell to?
cody chunn
RABBLE/RABBLE/RABBLE!!!!
--
-cody
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:61672c11-9a48-4382...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Pascal - FlipperFarm.be
> 3. MIDDLE BATTLE IS NOT EVEN IN IT
you mean, there is no wizard mode?
the_ball...@hotmail.com
> On 12 aug, 04:17, derek <mcblack...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > To make a long story short; my best bud who collects pins just like me
> > had a long converstaion with gary stern on the phone todya bout
> > rather have us putting quarters in a game on location then buying a
> > the following reasons:
> > 1. SKILL SHOT IS NOT DONE
> > 2. MYSTERY IS NOT DONE
> > TUMBVLER AWARDS AND AS OF RIGHT NOW THERE ARE NONE.
> > 5. THE MODES CAN NOT SCORE MORE THEN A MILLION POINTS AND THEY ALL DO
> > THE SAME THING
> > 6 I AM SURE THERE IS MORE BUT THIS IS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
> > DEREK
>
> conflicts happen...
> A friend of mine said... I maybe could believe it if you've talked to
> Gary yourself Derek.
> I really don't believe Gary couldn't care less about the Home Users.
> Gary is an adapt business man adn no way he would say such a thing.
> Gary has a hart for pinball and I believe he loves to see some of his
> games going straight to homes and are loved by collectors.
> On the other hand I can see the fact why he COULD say such a thing.
> Imagine daily phonecalls from collectors nagging about the software
> from SM and WoF. Some are yanking about IJ that they've nearly played
> on location but hey I've heard it on RGP that it sucks because it
> isn't a deep ruleset??? Now BDK is nearly one month old, lots of
> updates have followed since then and yet you're calling him to ask for
> software? Come on guys, I think if you called Microsoft with their
> first version of Vista they also couldn't care less cause you've
> bought it already(and that's way worse).
>
> If everybody stopped bitching at Stern and maybe could give them a
> REST and have a little PATIENCE, the games could be finished at their
> own pace. And they will be finished no matter what. But only time will
> tell when.
> I know there's an update coming for IJ and I'll wait for it till it's
> on their website. I really enjoy the game the way it is now and
> looking forward to what changes the sofware can bring to this good
> game! :))
>
> I'm sick of these thread everyday actually, don't panic, more will
> follow! FGy had tons of updates, TSPP had even an update after 4years
> or so. Be patient...
> The casual player wouldn't even notice some of the things so again
> it's good enough for on location but the Home buyer wants to see
> more(as always). But do understand that it needs some time.
> The next pin is scheduled for January so a lot of time for a lot of
> updates.
> Or maybe the pin for january will be completely finished? We'll see!
You probably have a plate in front of your head as big as GS does. GS
sticks to his old beliefs from when there were no collectors. Get
real! Both of you :)
Joe
black...@skynet.be
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
You're the right person to say that, a Stern-basher...
Collectors could be bad for the hobby cause a lot don't seem to get
the manufcturing process from a pinball machine too.
Maybe it hurts sales more than we think actually...
Example1:
-Collector: "My NIB has a little nick on the backbox(looking with an
eagle eye to see imperfections), I'm not happy with this and I want a
new game, Stern has quality control?"
-operator: "It works and it's new, let's hope it makes some good
money(he probably doesn't even see that little nick)"
Example2:
-Collector: "The game is half a month old and the software isn't even
finished, man I'm pissed, let's make a scene on RGP and start whining"
-Operator: "You can play a game on it, it's a good theme, it will make
good money"
Example3:
-Collector: "Gary you make cheap pinballs with low quality and wms was
way better in it's heyday in every way"
-Operator: "I'm getting rid off all my wms cause Stern is way more low
maintenance and makes more money"
Example4:
-Collector: "You promised things on the flyer that aren't in the game
or the game doesn't feel finished for ME(like some complain about IJ)"
-Operator: "The game looks interesting on the flyer, let's hope it
makes money(probably didn't even know about the speech calls)
These are just really STUPID examples on top of my head but what I
want to prove is that maybe a collector isn't always a safe bet...
Like everybody is telling IJ is far from finished(while it's not, I
have one), Spiderman too (lots of people didn't buy it while it isn't
all that noticeable)... Yeah, we could say the collector is real good
for business...
I do understand Gary Stern but that doesn't say maybe SM but certainly
WoF, IJ4 and BDK won't get anymore updates.
Do understand that those daily complaints about how bad of a leader he
is(he keeps this company ALIVE!), how bad the quality is, the software
takes too long etc... Williams never had to deal with thos complaints
for one simple reason: Nobody cared and collectors were small...
I'll hope the future brings us more cool games and finished software
for all but I for one will be patient and look out ;-)
TBK
have never bought one and I AM a route player who drops coins AT LEAST
5 days a week - yes Gary hardcore "casual" players still exist!
However, if GS wants me to play location games then OPS need to keep
the games playable (clean, properly adjusted, level, update the
software when there is an update, etc.). I have 2-3 ops in San Diego
County that actually do most if not all of these things and I consider
myself quite fortunate. Most players are not this lucky. From their
viewpoint and in many cases mine as well I have some issues with the
following "statements"
> Example3:
> -Collector: "Gary you make cheap pinballs with low quality and wms was
> way better in it's heyday in every way"
> -Operator: "I'm getting rid off all my wms cause Stern is way more low
> maintenance and makes more money"
Low maintenance = I rarely wipe the glass down when I empty the coin
box, forget taking the glass off to clean the playfield, or playing it
to make sure its fully functional. <--- I would venture to say 80%+ of
route games are treated like this and it is unfathomable to imagine
having regular/repeat customers with machines that are dirty and/or in
need of repair.
Mr. Stern, you produce entertainment devices, I don't find the Ops
keeping them up in playable condition enough to warrant dropping more
coins in a machine that works 75% and software that is only 60%
complete. However, you were kind enough to raise the price of a game
to 75 cents. Yes, this was overdue, but if it had been done when LOTR
or TSPP was released, it would have made much more sense because we
were getting so much "more game" than we had ever seen before. If your
concern really is the pocket of the Op, this would have been the
precise time to raise the price, helping the Ops bottom line, AND
provide an incredibly fun & deep product (at the same time even!) to
the players.
> Example4:
> -Collector: "You promised things on the flyer that aren't in the game
> or the game doesn't feel finished for ME(like some complain about IJ)"
> -Operator: "The game looks interesting on the flyer, let's hope it
> makes money(probably didn't even know about the speech calls)
Route player: What flyer? I've personally never seen a flyer. I do
know that half of the stuff on WoF doesn't do anything and I always
get zero points for vacation mb's. I know that in some places a game
doesn't do anything when it seems like it should because every other
time I do "X" there is a DMD animation (SM). I also know the inserts
should light up but they don't - why? There isn't a person within a
mile of me while I stand here at the machine with money to spend in
hand that has the answer to any of these questions. However, it now
costs me an extra quarter to play a brand new machine that causes me
to ask these questions. This makes it very difficult for me to WANT to
support my Ops.
>> Like everybody is telling IJ is far from finished(while it's not, I
> have one), Spiderman too (lots of people didn't buy it while it isn't
> all that noticeable)...
So the fact that the CS ramp is virtually useless on IJS isn't
noticeable? If you have one and can't tell it's not finished then you
probably still wear a helmet on the playground!
As for SM, it is well documented here on RGP about what isn't there
and what was expected to be there because Stern said you'll get "X, Y,
& Z". Thank you for X & Y! Where the hell is my Z? Btw, I personally
LOVE SM, but I was anxiously awaiting completed code to get the full
effect I am sure was intended during the design process. If it isn't
"all that noticeable" - wait until you get better at the game - you'll
surely notice it then!
Mr. Stern, I am a route player. I do drop coins on location, almost
daily! I AM your target audience! The Ops are letting YOU down by
letting your titles stay dirty and unplayable and by not updating them
when you provide updates. Exactly what are you expecting me to pay
for?
You can't over-promise AND under-deliver if you expect to stay in
business regardless of the business you're in!
Sincerely,
~Ron R
TBK=The Biggest Kid
"Route-rat extraordinaire!"
Kyle Wren
I'll third what Larry said. For the past couple of years Stern has earned an
excellent customer service reputation for dealing with legitimate product
issues. The point where they begin spending their business time talking on the
phone to Derek and other fanatical collectors about unfinished code and upcoming
title speculation is the point where valuable time and money are being wasted.
Oh yea, before someone that I upset throws a "but Stern has made $25,000 dollars
off of me in the past 5 years..." comment consider this fact. You would need to
have personally bought 50 or more pinball machines for Stern to have seen that
kind of profit from you, not 5. Most of the cash you send them goes directly to
paying employees, suppliers, insurance, facility, utilities, etc. So while it's
fair that $25,000 of your dollars may have passed through their hands they
certainly haven't pocketed all that...
mill...@frontiernet.net
You are exactly right. Whoever thinks that the operators are ordering
Stern pinballs in bulk doesn't know a whole lot about the current
amusement industry. And if you think that the people that are putting
the quarters in the games don't care about game depth, you're wrong in
that department too. Just grab an issue of Play Meter magazine and
see what pins make the top 10. Alot of Williams games that are 10
years old or more are still on that list. They aren't still on that
list because their mystery award is always 500,000. No, they are
still there because they keep the player coming back. Operators don't
like this update stuff anymore than the players. They buy a couple of
games and put them on the street and the code is not complete. Now
they have the players calling every 5 minutes complaining that the
game in their local watering hole isn't the same version as what
Sterns website says. Now the operator has to listen to the constant
bitching or send a tech that they are paying hourly (and gas) to the
location to update the thing. And in Batmans case, this happened
every day for a week. And if the operator doesn't update the code,
the player turns around and bitches to the location owner (usually a
great location if they have a new Stern) and then the owner calls the
operator. So, all Stern should say is, "the game is done or the game
is still a work in progress."
Lloyd Olson
compared to their large accounts, you buying one, you'd most likely told to
beat it and don't come back. LTG :)
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