Captain Fantastic, Pinball Art, and Top-Heavy Women
David McCullough Dobson
A place near me recently started putting in some old pinball machines to
complement their generally up-to-date collection. They've got a Banzai
Run, a High Speed, a Speakeasy, and most recently a Captain Fantastic. Of
these, I played all but Capt. F. when they were first out, so it's been a
fun trip back to the 1980's.
Captain Fantastic is fun to play (and only $0.25 for 5 balls), but I have
to wonder about the artwork. Elton John in his outrageous getup I can
handle, but what about all those women in the audience? Now, I wasn't too
fashion conscious in the late '60s and early '70s (I was born in 1969),
but is this how anybody dressed or looked? Were all pinball machines of
this era that raunchy? The game that Elton is shown playing has a nearly
nude woman on it, and there are several pictures of women with
outrageously large, er, torsos holding signs replete with painful innuendo
like "Feel Them Bumpers" and "Ring Them Bells".
I realize scantily-clad women seem to be a recurring theme in pinball art,
for reasons I don't really understand, but was this how they all were back
then? Did anyone care? Even that outrageously silicone-enhanced referee
on World Cup Soccer looks downright matronly compared to these "Fantastic"
women.
I have to say that I much prefer the depiction of women on, say, Indiana
Jones, where they're just characters presented in a non-sexual way, or
Attack From Mars, where the woman is in an evening gown. Mars has the
added bonus of the art fitting in with the Martians' comical and
inexplicable desire to kidnap women. The artwork and lewd commentary on
Elvira and Scared Stiff is not out of line; her whole routine is based on
this kind of campy stuff. But Captain Fantastic's fans (and the referee
on World Cup) bug me -- why this gratuitous pulchritude? I can't imagine
it has any real effect on sales, and I feel a bit embarrassed playing
games with this kind of art.
Anybody have any thoughts on this? Especially people who remember more of
the early 1970's than I do?
--
----------------------------------------
Dave Dobson (d...@umich.edu)
WWW: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dob
Michael Somerlot
The typical player of pinball tends to be male(or maybe I should say
used to be) and that's why a lot of the older games have artwork like
this- it's for a target auidence. I'm not saying this to be sexist, but
look at the 'traditional' locations for pins-bars,pool joints, etc.
If you look at todays' artwork,you see much less of this as the growing
popularity of women players as well the locations at which to play
demands manufactuers to be more 'PC'
please ignore all spelling mistakes-it's late,I'm tired.
Michael Somerlot som...@gte.net
Matte Loennborg
In article <5qcf9q$k6c$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>, d...@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu says...
>
>A place near me recently started putting in some old pinball machines to
>complement their generally up-to-date collection. They've got a Banzai
>Run, a High Speed, a Speakeasy, and most recently a Captain Fantastic. Of
>these, I played all but Capt. F. when they were first out, so it's been a
>fun trip back to the 1980's.
>
>Captain Fantastic is fun to play (and only $0.25 for 5 balls), but I have
>to wonder about the artwork. Elton John in his outrageous getup I can
>handle, but what about all those women in the audience? Now, I wasn't too
>fashion conscious in the late '60s and early '70s (I was born in 1969),
>but is this how anybody dressed or looked? Were all pinball machines of
>this era that raunchy? The game that Elton is shown playing has a nearly
>nude woman on it, and there are several pictures of women with
>outrageously large, er, torsos holding signs replete with painful innuendo
>like "Feel Them Bumpers" and "Ring Them Bells".
Congrats, you've just been exposed to one of the greatest popculture
artist of all time ! Dave "Mad Dog" Christensen did this GREAT backglass
and playfield design. In fact he did most of the really excellent
artdesigns for Bally pins in the 70-80's. Until they kicked him... 8-)
/MATTE
|====================================================================|
| Matte Loennborg, email: | "So many pins, so little .SIG space" :-) |
| pin...@algonet.se | Pinball Fanatic & Collector |
| ma...@skom.se | Laserdisc Collector & Moviephile |
| mats.l...@ingram.se | Audiophile in hybernation ... |
|====================================================================|
| (-: "Play Flipper Skill Games For Fun and Recreation! " :-) |
|====================================================================|
Scott Piehler
jcoc...@gate.net (Jeff Cochran) wrote:
>d...@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) wrote:
>>I realize scantily-clad women seem to be a recurring theme in pinball art,
>>for reasons I don't really understand, but was this how they all were back
>>then? Did anyone care? Even that outrageously silicone-enhanced referee
>>on World Cup Soccer looks downright matronly compared to these "Fantastic"
>>women.
>>Anybody have any thoughts on this? Especially people who remember more of
>>the early 1970's than I do?
>
>It's something I miss from my mis-spent youth. I fell in love with
>the girls on the original Playboy, Eight Ball and Strikes and Spares.
>There was also Twin Win, the X-Rated Captain Fantastic and a
>conversion of Playboy that had a projector that provided increasingly
>less-dressed images of the girl as you scored higher. I wish I could
>remember the name of that one, it was something like Naughty Girls or
>the like. Funny, the only place I saw that one was in a topless
>bar... :)
>
It's called Sexy Girl. There's a picture of the backglass on page 48
of Pinball Art by Temple.
++++++++++begin quote++++++++++++++++++=
Sexy Girls was a 1980 conversion kit by the German ARKON company.
hitting the G.I.R.L.S. targets lit up the playfield screen with a
pin-up girl. The more skillful the player, the naughtier the picture
+++++++++++++++++=end quote+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As far as the overall sexiness of 70's pinball, as has been pointed
out, Dave Christensen was responsible for most of it. But, again, we
must remember the audience. Pinball is still OVERWHELMINGLY skewed
male, and nobody really thought much of it. Harmless fun for the most
part. Sensibilities have changed a bit in the modern era.
I should add one thing before I get trashed by the Political
Correctness brigade. People often talk about objectification of women
with things like busty backglass illustrations, billboards, pin-up
shots. Why is it no one ever complains about magazines like
Cosmopolitan, which typically show someone falling out of a dress that
*almost* fits them? (I suppose it *is* an improvement over the current
Kate_Moss_on_heroin look that's (dis)gracing the fashion pages these
days) I've always wondered about that. Anyhow, back to pinball.
Yes, one could take offense at some of the artwork over the years.
But, pinball has always had a *naughty* reputation. Take a look at the
backglass of a Silverball Mania! Believe me, for those of you who grew
up after the 70's- the concept of a *family Arcade* is a new one. The
old summer boardwalk arcades were as close as we got to respectability
for quite_some_time, and even that was questionable.
Scott
Scott Piehler (RSP)- Atlanta, GA
An archive of Pinball Rulesheets as well as
a list of newer pins in the Atlanta area can be found at
http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/pinball.htm
Eugene Gershtein
d...@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) wrote:
>Captain Fantastic is fun to play (and only $0.25 for 5 balls), but I have
>to wonder about the artwork. Elton John in his outrageous getup I can
>handle, but what about all those women in the audience? Now, I wasn't too
>fashion conscious in the late '60s and early '70s (I was born in 1969),
>but is this how anybody dressed or looked? Were all pinball machines of
>this era that raunchy? The game that Elton is shown playing has a nearly
>nude woman on it, and there are several pictures of women with
>outrageously large, er, torsos holding signs replete with painful innuendo
>like "Feel Them Bumpers" and "Ring Them Bells".
What exactly is "raunchy" about women with large breasts? I know some
women who would be very offended by your characterization of them as
raunchy merely because of some physical attributes.
>I realize scantily-clad women seem to be a recurring theme in pinball art,
>for reasons I don't really understand, but was this how they all were back
You really don't understand? Please...
>I have to say that I much prefer the depiction of women on, say, Indiana
>Jones, where they're just characters presented in a non-sexual way, or
Sure, everybody knows that women are nothing if not asexual.
>inexplicable desire to kidnap women. The artwork and lewd commentary on
>Elvira and Scared Stiff is not out of line; her whole routine is based on
>this kind of campy stuff. But Captain Fantastic's fans (and the referee
>on World Cup) bug me -- why this gratuitous pulchritude? I can't imagine
So let me get this straight: "Lewdness" is only ok if it's the entire
theme of the game. If it's used sparingly, it's offensive.
>it has any real effect on sales, and I feel a bit embarrassed playing
>games with this kind of art.
Well, the solution is obvious...
Eug
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Eugene Gershtein |
| e...@citenet.net |
| |
| http://www.citenet.net/users/eug (home of the Toronto Area Pinball List) |
| http://www.flight642.com (The World's Aviation Connection) |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Jeff Cochran
>Anybody have any thoughts on this? Especially people who remember more of
>the early 1970's than I do?
It's something I miss from my mis-spent youth. I fell in love with
the girls on the original Playboy, Eight Ball and Strikes and Spares.
There was also Twin Win, the X-Rated Captain Fantastic and a
conversion of Playboy that had a projector that provided increasingly
less-dressed images of the girl as you scored higher. I wish I could
remember the name of that one, it was something like Naughty Girls or
the like. Funny, the only place I saw that one was in a topless
bar... :)
Jeff
Kerry Hogan
You gotta be kidding - right?!
David McCullough Dobson
In article <5qdc2t$c...@news.inforamp.net>,
Eugene Gershtein <e...@citenet.net> wrote:
>What exactly is "raunchy" about women with large breasts? I know some
>women who would be very offended by your characterization of them as
>raunchy merely because of some physical attributes.
Have you actually seen this game? Apparently not. I didn't want to get
into the details, but you apparently don't understand what I'm talking
about. In the center of the playfield there are two essentially naked
female figures facing outward wearing see-through negligees. The only
reason you don't see pubic hair on them is that the artist didn't decide
to draw it in. There are several depictions of topless women wearing
garter belts. All of the women in the audience have humongous breasts,
and all of them have nipples visible through their skimpy clothes.
I'm not trying to pass judgement on this as art; I'm just pointing out
that to most observers, this would qualify as raunchy.
>>I have to say that I much prefer the depiction of women on, say, Indiana
>>Jones, where they're just characters presented in a non-sexual way, or
>
>Sure, everybody knows that women are nothing if not asexual.
Oh, come off it. There's no way you can construe what I said as "Women
are asexual" or even "Art that displays women in provocative poses is
bad." There is definitely a place for art that addresses sexuality; many
of the great masters painted tantalizing nudes that pull at both the mind
and the gonads. I just don't see pinball as the place to display this. If
a pinball game you saw was covered with pictures of hairy-chested men with
oiled ripplingly muscled skin wearing only thong Speedo bathing suits that
barely disguised their bulging manhoods, you probably wouldn't want to
play this game much (unless such men were your sexual preference). My
point is that I don't see pinball as a sexual activity, and I'd rather
that it didn't have art that sexualized it.
>>inexplicable desire to kidnap women. The artwork and lewd commentary on
>>Elvira and Scared Stiff is not out of line; her whole routine is based on
>>this kind of campy stuff. But Captain Fantastic's fans (and the referee
>>on World Cup) bug me -- why this gratuitous pulchritude? I can't imagine
>
>So let me get this straight: "Lewdness" is only ok if it's the entire
>theme of the game. If it's used sparingly, it's offensive.
Again, this is clearly not what I said or implied. You couldn't make any
product, pinball or not, that involved Elvira without including her
provocative clothing, considerable physical endowments, and off-color (but
funny) dialogue. That's what Elvira is. On the other hand, there is
nothing about the World Cup or soccer that relates to sex. Having a
bodacious babe as the referee on that game seems inappropriate to me, much
as using the Swedish Bikini Team to sell beer does.
I don't know why you decided to jump on my post. All I was saying was:
1) Captain Fantastic has some audaciously racy artwork.
2) I wasn't an active player when it came out, and I wanted to know
if other pinball art of that era was this way.
3) Personally, I'm glad there's been a shift away from this kind of stuff.
It makes me uncomfortable (but that's my problem). As far as the industry
is concerned, I think games that aren't covered with cheesecake images of
women will help pinball become less shady and more generally accepted.
Phobes
<snip half-nekkid-women-on-pins debate>
Yep, pinball's traditionally been a "guy" thing...as a woman, I don't care
for this kind of art, (ex. "Breakshot" --yech, IMHO) and I'm not
comfortable with games that have that kind of theming. Yeah, it may be a
good game, but, hey, the pinball art babes don't do anything for me -- in
most cases they're just an an easy way to attract guys to look at the
machine...feh...but hey, I'm not their market, right? :)
Lately, pinball's movin' out of the dark bars and bowling alleys -- it
seems to be following on the coattails of the whole 70's retro trend in
fashion and culture. We've been seeing a lot less of the "pinball babe"
kind of theme (look @ Space Jam, Indiana Jones, Twister, Lost World, etc
etc) and it seems more women and pin newbies are getting interested, which
in turn will (hopefully) bring about a greater variety of pin themes and
artwork...
sparky
(with a Black Knight 2000 and a Twilight Zone, neither of which have any
"pinball babes" on them)
http://www.phobe.com/pinfools
Michelle Bottorff
David McCullough Dobson <d...@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
> >What exactly is "raunchy" about women with large breasts?
<Snip>
> All of the women in the audience have humongous breasts,
> and all of them have nipples visible through their skimpy clothes.
>
> I'm not trying to pass judgement on this as art; I'm just pointing out
> that to most observers, this would qualify as raunchy.
The original question was the why you're basing this on size, not
presentation.
Jess Askey
David McCullough Dobson wrote:
> Oh, come off it. There's no way you can construe what I said as "Women
> are asexual" or even "Art that displays women in provocative poses is
> bad." There is definitely a place for art that addresses sexuality; many
> of the great masters painted tantalizing nudes that pull at both the mind
> and the gonads. I just don't see pinball as the place to display this. If
> a pinball game you saw was covered with pictures of hairy-chested men with
> oiled ripplingly muscled skin wearing only thong Speedo bathing suits that
> barely disguised their bulging manhoods, you probably wouldn't want to
> play this game much
Hardbody by Bally. Was an okay game I suppose with the controlable
drain lanes.
Lots of bulging men (but women too) as you said.
--
Jess M. Askey Unofficial Atari Game Page
ESLB/The Audio Analyst http://links.magenta.com/havoc
509 S. 2nd Street Unit B
Laramie WY 82070 Shop: (307)721-9001
Phobes
In article <slrn5sobia...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mab...@uiuc.edu wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:18:16 -0700, om...@phobe.com wrote:
>> (with a Black Knight 2000 and a Twilight Zone, neither of which have any
>> "pinball babes" on them)
>
> Actually, a friend and I were involved in this discussion once.
>There *IS* one (kinda) on TZ. Look on the upper-right of the playfield, near
>the clock and player piano.
(sounds of pattering feet running downstairs to look at the TZ playfield)
Hmm - there IS a chick there! Whaddya know. She's in the powerball lane up
by the gumball machine, inbetween it and the metal ramp. She's hidden way
up in the darkness under the ramp, so I never woulda noticed her if ya
hadn't told me! It's a blonde woman in a low-cut tank top kinda screaming
and throwing her hands in the air.
Eh, mostly harmless. :)
sincerely
sparky
http://www.phobe.com/pinfools
Majdi Abbas
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:18:16 -0700, om...@phobe.com wrote:
> (with a Black Knight 2000 and a Twilight Zone, neither of which have any
> "pinball babes" on them)
Actually, a friend and I were involved in this discussion once.
There *IS* one (kinda) on TZ. Look on the upper-right of the playfield, near
the clock and player piano.
Oh, and art like Breakshot has never really appealed to me. There's
a limit, beyond which it's just tacky. Good examples: Barb Wire, Gilligans
Island, etc.
--Majdi, "bust"ing illusions ;)
--
Majdi Abbas <mab...@uiuc.edu> I do not speak for my employer.
"Gentleman, you can't fight in here--this is the War Room!"
(Remove the waterbuffalo from my posting address to reply via email.)
David McCullough Dobson
In article <199707151...@tsc-p0.pconline.com>,
A fair question; a pinball game covered with, say, nuns that happened to
have large breasts wouldn't be the same. But breasts are commonly
eroticized body parts, and when they are emphasized both through, er,
titillating presentation and exaggerated size, I think it's obvious what
effect they were after. A picture of a tremendously well-hung attractive
guy would meet my definition of "raunchy" as well.
Again, I'm not some kind of prude; the art on Capt. Fantastic just seemed
to be even more sexually oriented than that on other pinball machines, and
I was wondering if it was representative of its era or was just a single
anomalous example.
LMihin
In article <5qe0ls$1oc$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
d...@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) writes:
>If
>a pinball game you saw was covered with pictures of hairy-chested men
with
>oiled ripplingly muscled skin wearing only thong Speedo bathing suits
that
>barely disguised their bulging manhoods, you probably wouldn't want to
>play this game much (unless such men were your sexual preference).
Sure but that's not the real reason that SEGA's WWF Royal Rumble wasn't
played a lot :)
Lonnie
Jeff Cochran
>Again, I'm not some kind of prude; the art on Capt. Fantastic just seemed
>to be even more sexually oriented than that on other pinball machines, and
>I was wondering if it was representative of its era or was just a single
>anomalous example.
Remember the era as well. Disco, tight spandex, short skirts, no
undergarments. Damn Eighties took away all the good stuff... :)
Jeff
David Gersic
In <slrn5sobia...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mab...@waterbuffalo.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) writes:
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:18:16 -0700, om...@phobe.com wrote:
>> (with a Black Knight 2000 and a Twilight Zone, neither of which have any
>> "pinball babes" on them)
>
> Actually, a friend and I were involved in this discussion once.
>There *IS* one (kinda) on TZ. Look on the upper-right of the playfield, near
>the clock and player piano.
Hmm. I'll have to look there tomorrow; I don't recall seeing anything in
that area.
> Oh, and art like Breakshot has never really appealed to me. There's
>a limit, beyond which it's just tacky.
The whole point of Breakshot's artwork, though, was to recall the days of
that style, and I think they pulled it off quite nicely. Yes, it borders on
tacky; it was supposed to.
>Good examples: Barb Wire, Gilligans Island, etc.
Haven't seen Barb Wire, but my understanding is that it's a feature game
for a particular person's movie, so the artwork probably comes more from
the movie / comic book character than anything else.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| Chrysler: Car Having Really Yucky Stupid Lazy Engine Runs |
| |
|I'm tired of receiving crap in my mailbox, so the E-mail address has been|
|munged to foil the junkmail bots. Humans will figure it out on their own.|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David Gersic
In <5qe0ls$1oc$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>, d...@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) writes:
>In article <5qdc2t$c...@news.inforamp.net>,
>Eugene Gershtein <e...@citenet.net> wrote:
>
>>What exactly is "raunchy" about women with large breasts? I know some
>>women who would be very offended by your characterization of them as
>>raunchy merely because of some physical attributes.
>
>Have you actually seen this game? Apparently not.
I have, but it was a long time ago. I don't recall much in the way of
details.
>I didn't want to get
>into the details, but you apparently don't understand what I'm talking
>about. In the center of the playfield there are two essentially naked
>female figures facing outward wearing see-through negligees. The only
>reason you don't see pubic hair on them is that the artist didn't decide
>to draw it in. There are several depictions of topless women wearing
>garter belts. All of the women in the audience have humongous breasts,
>and all of them have nipples visible through their skimpy clothes.
Hmm. Ok. I honestly don't remember it being quite that vivid. Fortunatly,
Mr. Pinball has pictures of the game and playfield in his Gallery, so I was
able to go have a look. I see the two negligee ones you're talking about,
but the resolution on the scans isn't good enough to pick out the others.
>I'm not trying to pass judgement on this as art; I'm just pointing out
>that to most observers, this would qualify as raunchy.
A bit, perhaps, but probably no more so than the machines that would have
been sitting on either side of it at the time.
>>>I have to say that I much prefer the depiction of women on, say, Indiana
>>>Jones, where they're just characters presented in a non-sexual way, or
>>
>>Sure, everybody knows that women are nothing if not asexual.
>
>Oh, come off it. There's no way you can construe what I said as "Women
>are asexual" or even "Art that displays women in provocative poses is
>bad." There is definitely a place for art that addresses sexuality; many
>of the great masters painted tantalizing nudes that pull at both the mind
>and the gonads. I just don't see pinball as the place to display this. If
I don't play, or not play, pinball games for the artwork. The artwork may
draw me over to look at the game (see Sega's 3D backbox, for example) if
it's particularly eye-catching, but for the most part I don't pay much
attention to it.
Considering the theme of the game (Elton John in the 70s), it doesn't seem
to be out of line to me.
>a pinball game you saw was covered with pictures of hairy-chested men with
>oiled ripplingly muscled skin wearing only thong Speedo bathing suits that
>barely disguised their bulging manhoods, you probably wouldn't want to
>play this game much (unless such men were your sexual preference). My
It wouldn't bother me if such a game existed, though it has nothing at all
to do with my preference. I'd play it if it were fun, and ignore it if it
were boring. Heck, maybe such a game would draw more women over to play
pinballs (can you say "Chippendale"...?).
>point is that I don't see pinball as a sexual activity, and I'd rather
>that it didn't have art that sexualized it.
There's quite a lot of games that have artwork that may annoy you, then.
Black Rose comes to mind, as does my own Farfalla, and many others.
Farfalla was actually changed for the US importer to make the artwork less
risque. The original European version shows much more cleavage. For some
reason, the importer had it modified so that the woman in the backglass is
wearing a scarf-like thing to hide more.
>funny) dialogue. That's what Elvira is. On the other hand, there is
>nothing about the World Cup or soccer that relates to sex. Having a
>bodacious babe as the referee on that game seems inappropriate to me, much
>as using the Swedish Bikini Team to sell beer does.
For one reason or another, sex sells.
>I don't know why you decided to jump on my post. All I was saying was:
>
>1) Captain Fantastic has some audaciously racy artwork.
I'd like to see one first hand to see if it's more obvious than the pics on
Mr. Pinball's page make it look.
>2) I wasn't an active player when it came out, and I wanted to know
>if other pinball art of that era was this way.
Much of it was, yes.
>3) Personally, I'm glad there's been a shift away from this kind of stuff.
Personally, I'm usually watching the ball, not looking at the artwork. ;-)
>It makes me uncomfortable (but that's my problem). As far as the industry
>is concerned, I think games that aren't covered with cheesecake images of
>women will help pinball become less shady and more generally accepted.
Possibly, but I'd much rather have cheesecake than the gore of the current
fighting games.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
|David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
|Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University |
| |
| REPEAT INC(WALK) UNTIL (WALK > PIER) |
Mark DeRoller
David McCullough Dobson wrote:
>
> A fair question; a pinball game covered with, say, nuns that happened to
> have large breasts wouldn't be the same. But breasts are commonly
> eroticized body parts, and when they are emphasized both through, er,
> titillating presentation and exaggerated size, I think it's obvious what
> effect they were after. A picture of a tremendously well-hung attractive
> guy would meet my definition of "raunchy" as well.
>
> to be even more sexually oriented than that on other pinball machines, and
> I was wondering if it was representative of its era or was just a single
> anomalous example.
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Dave Dobson (d...@umich.edu)
> WWW: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dob
Lazer War back glass shows live action models in tight spandex.
It doesn't look raunchy, just cheesy.
--
*************************************************************
The opinions expressed here are mine and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions of my company or organization.
Mark DeRoller
Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics, Rochester NY
Day: (716) 425-1869
Work: (716) 453-5482
WTB/WTT: Chase H.Q., Super Monaco GP, Star Trek '91 Data East
Pinball, Wells-Gardner Color XY Monitor Parts, FireFox or
Star Rider PCBs and LD players (Philips VP931 or Pioneer PR8210A)
*************************************************************
Clive Mitchell
In article <omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>, Phobes
<om...@phobe.com> writes
>It's a blonde woman in a low-cut tank top kinda screaming
>and throwing her hands in the air.
>
> Eh, mostly harmless. :)
Harmless?.. It's hardly harmless if she's screaming "Take me! Take me!
I'm all yours big boy!"
It's no wonder those filthy perverts at WMS brought out another Elvira
machine. They probably had their grubby hands all over her when she was
posing for the artwork. TCH!
:P
--
Clive Mitchell
Elvira:- "Do I really have to pose like this?"
WMS:- "Yes! Now shut up and get 'em out."
Steve King
Clive Mitchell <cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk> says...
> It's no wonder those filthy perverts at WMS brought out another Elvira
> machine. They probably had their grubby hands all over her when she was
> posing for the artwork. TCH!
I forget how it came up, but one day at Capcom a few people were chatting
about modesty. One of the more voluptuous ladies in the office said,
"Me? Overly modest? I don't think so! I posed nude for the backglass,
after all!" I just gawked at the artist and said, "Wow. You guys have
*all* the best lines!" I mean, what's a poor programmer to say? "Take
off your clothes, I need to code a hot subroutine?"
(And no comments about being treated like an object!)
--
--------------------------------< Steve King, st...@pshrink.chi.il.us >--
"What now, Brain?"
"We should flee in terror. Yes. That would be the wisest course."
Russel Willoughby
In article <5qe0ls$1oc$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
d...@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) wrote:
> My
> point is that I don't see pinball as a sexual activity, and I'd rather
> that it didn't have art that sexualized it.
I _do_ see pinball as a sexual activity, and I know I'm not alone here. I
don't mean that I literally get a sexual turn-on when I play, but it is a
sexual metaphor of sorts. Tension, build-up, release, intuitive movements
of the body--there are parallels.
I contend that if you really can't see any connection between pinball
playing and sex, then you'll never be a great pinball player. Period.
> On the other hand, there is
> nothing about the World Cup or soccer that relates to sex. Having a
> bodacious babe as the referee on that game seems inappropriate to me, much
> as using the Swedish Bikini Team to sell beer does.
Look, soccer is perhaps the _most_ sexual of all sports. The pacing in a
good match is analagous to that of good sex. Listen to the announcers!
They do a lot to emphasize the sexuality of it all.
(BTW, the football-sex connection was satired pretty effectively in the
movie Trainspotting, which everyone ought to see, despite the fact that
no-one plays pinball in it. :-) )
> I don't know why you decided to jump on my post. All I was saying was:
>
> 1) Captain Fantastic has some audaciously racy artwork.
>
> 2) I wasn't an active player when it came out, and I wanted to know
> if other pinball art of that era was this way.
As others have mentioned, the artwork on Capt. Fantastic was the work of
Dave Christensen, who designed a lot of other backglasses in the same
style. There were, of course, other artists who imitated/paid homage to
his style (Paul Faris's backglass for Eight Ball reminds me of a
Christensen), but his were the most outrageous. They were also the most
artful, and the most beautiful. Due to the social/political climate, they
couldn't happen today.
> 3) Personally, I'm glad there's been a shift away from this kind of stuff.
> It makes me uncomfortable (but that's my problem). As far as the industry
> is concerned, I think games that aren't covered with cheesecake images of
> women will help pinball become less shady and more generally accepted.
Yes, the industry realized this a long time ago. Nipples seemed to
suddenly vanish from the backglasses around 1980 or so, and within a few
years it was pretty hard to even find a mildly racy-looking game. Bally
persisted with the style to some extent into the early eighties, but
Williams never really used it much at all. And Williams' strategy paid
off, because Bally went belly-up in 1987 and was swallowed up by Williams.
There has been a slight resurgence of big breasts in the past few years,
but I honestly don't think it's caused much of a stir. Bally's Theatre of
Magic featured a well-endowed female magician on the backglass, and it
sold phenomenally well. Sega's Baywatch featured thong-bikini-clad women
on the side of the cabinet, as well as Pamela Anderson in a tasteful
one-piece on the backglass. I've noticed busty women in the detail artwork
on a number of other games too (Corvette, WCS, NBA Fastbreak, etc.)
Nipples, apparently, are still on sabbatical. :-(
--
Russel Willoughby
--------------------
NEW e-mail address:
rus...@bellsouth.net
Scott Piehler
rus...@bellsouth.net (Russel Willoughby) wrote:
>In article <5qe0ls$1oc$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>d...@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) wrote:
>
>> My
>> point is that I don't see pinball as a sexual activity, and I'd rather
>> that it didn't have art that sexualized it.
>
>I _do_ see pinball as a sexual activity, and I know I'm not alone here. I
>don't mean that I literally get a sexual turn-on when I play, but it is a
>sexual metaphor of sorts. Tension, build-up, release, intuitive movements
>of the body--there are parallels.
>
>I contend that if you really can't see any connection between pinball
>playing and sex, then you'll never be a great pinball player. Period.
I'll go along with this, and take it a step further. The position of
the player (slightly bent over) brings attention to, you guessed it,
their butt. I'm sure more than one person has, shall we say, browsed,
as others played.
Since pinball is so inherently tactile, it is far more sensual than
the average vid. Similar to the way musicians who know their
instruments are viewed as desirable.
>
>There has been a slight resurgence of big breasts in the past few years,
>but I honestly don't think it's caused much of a stir. Bally's Theatre of
>Magic featured a well-endowed female magician on the backglass,
Painted by a woman. Linda Deal.
>and it
>sold phenomenally well. Sega's Baywatch featured thong-bikini-clad women
>on the side of the cabinet, as well as Pamela Anderson in a tasteful
>one-piece on the backglass. I've noticed busty women in the detail artwork
>on a number of other games too (Corvette, WCS, NBA Fastbreak, etc.)
Well, ever since the Wonder-Bra, breasts have actually something of a
female power statement. Last months Playboy (Farrah cover) actually
had an article from a female feminist journalist talking about her
breast implants from a feminist angle (My body, my success, I've
*earned* these).
A strange topic, perhaps. I think it may best be summed up by the
statement: *Sexy is not sexist.* It would be quite another thing if
backglasses were filled with images of women being bound & gagged.
Dwight E. Andersen
David McCullough Dobson wrote:
>
> A place near me recently started putting in some old pinball machines to
> complement their generally up-to-date collection. They've got a Banzai
> Run, a High Speed, a Speakeasy, and most recently a Captain Fantastic. Of
> these, I played all but Capt. F. when they were first out, so it's been a
> fun trip back to the 1980's.
>
> to wonder about the artwork. Elton John in his outrageous getup I can
> handle, but what about all those women in the audience? Now, I wasn't too
> fashion conscious in the late '60s and early '70s (I was born in 1969),
> but is this how anybody dressed or looked? Were all pinball machines of
> this era that raunchy? The game that Elton is shown playing has a nearly
> nude woman on it, and there are several pictures of women with
> outrageously large, er, torsos holding signs replete with painful innuendo
> like "Feel Them Bumpers" and "Ring Them Bells".
>
> for reasons I don't really understand, but was this how they all were back
> on World Cup Soccer looks downright matronly compared to these "Fantastic"
> women.
>
> Jones, where they're just characters presented in a non-sexual way, or
> added bonus of the art fitting in with the Martians' comical and
> Elvira and Scared Stiff is not out of line; her whole routine is based on
> this kind of campy stuff. But Captain Fantastic's fans (and the referee
> on World Cup) bug me -- why this gratuitous pulchritude? I can't imagine
> games with this kind of art.
>
> the early 1970's than I do?
> ----------------------------------------
> Dave Dobson (d...@umich.edu)
> WWW: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dob
David:
I'd love to sit down for a couple of days and write about what went in
to the art and design of Captain Fantastic. That game holds a special
place in my heart. But I don't have the time right now to spend
drafting up some of the answers you're wanting. You can thank (and I
mean that sincerely) David (mad Dog) Christensen for the glorious art in
that game (and many others.)
However, remember that the scene for the art of Captain Fantastic came
from the pinball challenge in the movie Tommy, between the "Pinball
Champ" (EJ) and Tommy (Roger Daultry). In the movie, EJ played a custom
Buckaroo (no, it wasn't Cowpoke as some say). The backglass of the
pinball EJ is playing on Captain Fantastic is Wizard. Bally captured on
the frenzy of EJ's newly released Captain Fantastic and the Brown dirt
Cowboy album, the record setting Wizard pinball game, and the movie
Tommy. Ann Margret played Tommy's mom in the movie and is with Tommy on
the backglass of the "real" Wizard backglass.
There were three version of the Captain Fantastic backglass made: the
original "Over the Top" version, the "uncensored" or "no stars" version,
and the "starred" regular version. The latter two are interchangable,
the first is not and only works in an "Over the Top" game. The "Over
the Top" game physically differs in many ways from the other two games,
both mechanically and cosmetically.
You might be interested to know that Gene Cunningham is releasing a new
pinball book this September on Dave Christensen Bally pinballs. I just
spoke w/ Gene in Vegas Saturday and he gave me a flyer for the book.
Gene will be selling this book direct. If you need his address, let me
know.
--
__________________
DWIGHT E. ANDERSEN: capt.fa...@worldnet.att.net or DAnd...@aol.com
Private collector of Pinball/Arcade "stuff":
machines, books, flyers, promotional & other related items
Colorado Springs, Colorado USA
vquon
In article <53GvpEAD...@emanator.demon.co.uk>,
cl...@emanator.REMOVEdemon.co.uk says...
>
>In article <omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>, Phobes
><om...@phobe.com> writes
>>It's a blonde woman in a low-cut tank top kinda screaming
>>and throwing her hands in the air.
>>
>> Eh, mostly harmless. :)
>
>Harmless?.. It's hardly harmless if she's screaming "Take me! Take me!
>I'm all yours big boy!"
>
>machine. They probably had their grubby hands all over her when she was
>posing for the artwork. TCH!
>
>--
>Clive Mitchell
>
>
>
>Elvira:- "Do I really have to pose like this?"
>
>WMS:- "Yes! Now shut up and get 'em out."
>
Wasn't she posing like that during her movie intro's? Naw, doesn't fly.
Can't bash WMS here!
john
Hey guys it is bad enough most everyone in here bashes that other, ahem,
cough, cough, pinball maker better known for some Stupid little Blue
Rodent, but I have to draw the line when someone starts bashing WMS... hell
they are the only one from the EM days still around!!
So please refrain from bashing these guys.
thanks
vquon <vq...@ngcan.com> wrote in article
<5qvtqe$sfe$1...@loki.tor.hookup.net>...
Phobes
>Hey guys it is bad enough most everyone in here bashes that other, ahem,
>cough, cough, pinball maker better known for some Stupid little Blue
>Rodent, but I have to draw the line when someone starts bashing WMS... hell
>they are the only one from the EM days still around!!
>
>So please refrain from bashing these guys.
two points.
1) the postings regarding Williams lecherous Elvira modeling sessions and
TZ babe were obviously over the top jokes.
2) I consider williams to be the best pinball mfg around, past or present,
and have nothing but esteem for their designers and their history.
However, this does not elevate them to sainthood or excuse the fact that
they, like almost everyone else, do present sexist or offensive artwork on
a regular basis. Unfortunately, sex sells and it is part of the culture
of pinballs, for better or worse, and juvenile minds continue to welcome
it. Williams, for their part, have committed fewer and lesser crimes than
most of their competitors (present and past) but they are not innocent.
Understanding the culture & history of pinball, I can see where the sexist
art originates and it may never go away, but it doesn't mean I have to like
it or hope that pinball can mature out of that stage.
If Williams does something I feel they shouldn't, I will certainly voice
my opinion about it. Just because Williams makes the best pins around does
not mean I can't voice my opinions about how they should improve or that I
don't agree with something they've done. I fail to see how their design
skills somehow excuse them from deserved criticism. Nor do I see how their
longevity, persistence, or even experience in the industry elevates them
to infallibility. I have a lot of respect for Williams but that doesn't
mean I have to blindly accept everything they do as perfect. Anyone can
misjudge the market or suffer from bad design decisions. I also respect
Sega for bravely entering into a declining market, and while their machines
do not enjoy the years of design experience William's machines have, they
are doing some new things and learning as they go--but that doesn't mean
they are above criticism either. Pinball design is an iterative process,
where the designers experiment, adapt, and react to the gripes and
accolades of the consumers in a constantly changing marketplace. If we
don't express our displeasure, designers will be uninformed and continue to
do things we hate (by the same token, we should also applaud and reward
those that do things we like).
Larz
pin...@phobe.com
Phobes
>>I _do_ see pinball as a sexual activity, and I know I'm not alone here. I
>>don't mean that I literally get a sexual turn-on when I play, but it is a
>>sexual metaphor of sorts. Tension, build-up, release, intuitive movements
>>of the body--there are parallels.
>the average vid. Similar to the way musicians who know their
>instruments are viewed as desirable.
driving to heavy lifting to cooking. The physical kinematics, precise
timing and struggle/conflict inherent in almost any sport relates to the
player and how the game is played. I can make the same analogy with music,
juggling, or even falling down the stairs. But those are rarely depicted
on a pin. While some people may extrapolate that someone playing an
intensely physical game of pinball may somehow translate that intensity to
sex, most people I've seen playing pinball in an intensely physical way
tend to look downright idiotic and pretentious. I've yet to have someone
playing a pin strike me as sexy.
Just because pinball and sex both involve tension, timing and exertion
does not mean there is justified reason to put naked women in suggestive
poses on a backglass. The sole purpose of that is to attract attention of
males and makes no improvement in the game or how it is played.
>>There has been a slight resurgence of big breasts in the past few years,
>>but I honestly don't think it's caused much of a stir. Bally's Theatre of
>>Magic featured a well-endowed female magician on the backglass,
>
>Painted by a woman. Linda Deal.
your point being? I've heard many feminists claim women foster more
anti-feminism and sexism than men do. Nor is an artist necessarily free to
paint anything she wishes--she has to cater to the market forces, her
bosses' opinions, and historical context of pinball art.
>Well, ever since the Wonder-Bra, breasts have actually something of a
>female power statement. Last months Playboy (Farrah cover) actually
>had an article from a female feminist journalist talking about her
>breast implants from a feminist angle (My body, my success, I've
>*earned* these).
somehow I find any woman claiming to be a feminist writing for playboy
suspect in her definition of feminism. call me a cynic... Unfortunately we
live in a world where a woman with large breasts can get more out of a man
than a woman with a large brain. I would prefer not to further that or
call that "empowerment"
>A strange topic, perhaps. I think it may best be summed up by the
>statement: *Sexy is not sexist.*
Isn't that what Nigel Tufnel said?
The presentation and context makes a difference to me between sexy and
sexist. Is there a contextual reason for the female depicted to show huge
breasts and cleavage or skin? If the pinball machine is themed to be
_about_ sex, then I can maybe I can buy into a naked (or nearly so) woman,
but then shouldn't there be a nude man as well? Would it make as much
sense in the context of the scene for the woman magician on TOM to have
smaller breasts? Yes, but why doesn't she? In TOTAN, the woman is a harem
girl, who is supposed to be scantily clad and sexual in employment--but how
much does she really relate to the game? Why is she so prominently
featured while her relevance to the game is almost non-extistent? Because
sex sells. Her presented breasts are large and skin exposed to get your,
the male player's, attention. That is sexism, not sexy.
In Bally's WhoDunnit, the style is a classic detective story, which often
featured fictional, trampy woman from another era and I can understand the
context there and the women are represented in relation to their importance
to the game. Elvira has made a career out of selling her breasts, and
while I can't say she's done wonders for people respecting her
intelligence, showing her breasts on her pins makes sense since that's
exactly what she is. It is a sexist image, but Eliva is by definition
sexist and you couldn't rightly make the pin without her breats (and
therefore are making a sexist pin, by definition). There it makes a
certain amount of sense from context--maybe it's a context that we don't
like or have to support, but it has a context. But on other machines,
like TOTAN and TOM, it doesn't. Pinball does not have to be a vehicle for
the feminist bandwagon, but it doesn't need to remain stuck in the
pre-cambrian era either.
>It would be quite another thing if
>backglasses were filled with images of women being bound & gagged.
Not a different thing at all--it's only a matter of degree. The women who
are presented on the backglass provactively are there to sell the game and
they are not being shown in a way that shows any respect. A woman tied up
is presented as a victim. A woman showing herself to sell the machine is a
tramp/whore. They are both inviting casual sex, both there for no reason
other than to get your attention, and both present women in a
less-than-positive light.
While I would rather look at an attractive woman than an ugly one, being
attractive does not have to involve nipples, breasts and exposed skin. I
would prefer women to be shown in a way that makes sense according to the
context of the scene and game, rather than to insult my intelligence and
have her breasts beg for my quarter.
Larz
pin...@phobe.com
Scott Piehler
om...@phobe.com (Phobes) wrote:
Heading WAYYYYYYYYY off topic here.
(and trying to frame this strictly in the terms of an academic debate)
>>Well, ever since the Wonder-Bra, breasts have actually something of a
>>female power statement. Last months Playboy (Farrah cover) actually
>>had an article from a female feminist journalist talking about her
>>breast implants from a feminist angle (My body, my success, I've
>>*earned* these).
>somehow I find any woman claiming to be a feminist writing for playboy
>suspect in her definition of feminism. call me a cynic...
O.K., I will :) Probably so would Camille Paglia, Candida Royalle,
Helen Gurley Brown, and Joyce Carol Oates.
>Unfortunately we
>live in a world where a woman with large breasts can get more out of a man
>than a woman with a large brain. I would prefer not to further that or
>call that "empowerment"
As Paglia has often pointed out, who is in control? The man sitting in
the strip-club, ready to be tossed out the door the moment the bouncer
thinks he's being improper, or the dancer who has the attention of the
entire bar, and is actually making a fortune. (Certain clubs
excepted)-She is not touched, fondled, nor expected to *put-out*. And
she has men literally coming in their pants.
>
>>A strange topic, perhaps. I think it may best be summed up by the
>>statement: *Sexy is not sexist.*
>Isn't that what Nigel Tufnel said?
No, the quote from the movie is *What's wrong with being sexy?* To
which the woman replies something to the effect of *sex-IST, not sexy*
Nice reference though.
>The presentation and context makes a difference to me between sexy and
>sexist. Is there a contextual reason for the female depicted to show huge
>breasts and cleavage or skin?
Well, if it's Baywatch, yes...
>Pinball does not have to be a vehicle for
>the feminist bandwagon, but it doesn't need to remain stuck in the
>pre-cambrian era either.
<Section taken out of sequence next>
>Elvira has made a career out of selling her breasts, and
>while I can't say she's done wonders for people respecting her
>intelligence, showing her breasts on her pins makes sense since that's
>exactly what she is. It is a sexist image, but Eliva is by definition
>sexist
NO ONE is asking Cassandra Peterson to do what she does. She is a
mature, full-grown adult, who also happens to be a great business
mind. I'm sure she's be stunned to be called sexist. I suppose you
would view MAe West as sexist, even though she was one of the first
women in Hollywood to call her own shots. I ask you this(and i said it
earlier in this thread): Why is it when a pinball machine, or an ad
agency, or a *men's* magazine throws a busty woman on a
backglass/billboard/cover, everyone screams EXPLOITATION!!, but when
Cosmopolotian or any one of a number of *Women's* magazines does it,
no_one_flinches? Because-part of the triumph of feminism is this:
Women have earned the right to say *I enjoy being myself. Part of that
self is sexual. This is how I choose to display it.* To reduce every
low-top, high thigh dress to some form of sexist/chauvinist conspiracy
is to take away part of what's been won.
I own a Jessica Rabbit novelty necktie. It shows jessica from the
waist up, full cleavage. I get more compliments from women on that tie
than I do from men. Most women I know do not have a problem with their
sensual side.
>
>>It would be quite another thing if
>>backglasses were filled with images of women being bound & gagged.
>Not a different thing at all--it's only a matter of degree. The women who
>are presented on the backglass provactively are there to sell the game and
>they are not being shown in a way that shows any respect. A woman tied up
>is presented as a victim. A woman showing herself to sell the machine is a
>tramp/whore. They are both inviting casual sex, both there for no reason
>other than to get your attention, and both present women in a
>less-than-positive light.
This is where we agree to disagree. By saying any woman posing in a
provocative manner is a tramp/whore, you yourself degrade women. You
are, in effect, saying that *In order for a woman to be respectable,
she must therefore be asexual.*. That's the old Madonna/Whore complex
wrapped up in a new, politically-correct package. Yes, folks at the
office tends to think less of you is you're falling out of your dress,
but that's a specific environment-the workplace.
>
>While I would rather look at an attractive woman than an ugly one,
Thank you for admitting as much. And most women would rather look at
an attractive man. Does that make a male model *sexist* for developing
his abs & butt and appearing in underwear ads?
>being
>attractive does not have to involve nipples, breasts and exposed skin. I
>would prefer women to be shown in a way that makes sense according to the
>context of the scene and game, rather than to insult my intelligence and
>have her breasts beg for my quarter.
Backglasses never have influenced where my quarter goes. You do have a
point in that when it gets gratuitous, it's ridiculous. However, I
think you're being overtly sensitive.
Again, this is NOT a personal attack. Merely throwing in more than my
$0.50.
Phobes
>Heading WAYYYYYYYYY off topic here.
of pinball here... I think here and there pinball comes up in this
discussion. ;)
>(and trying to frame this strictly in the terms of an academic debate)
thank you for that. when posting this, I realized it was absolute flame bait.
>>somehow I find any woman claiming to be a feminist writing for playboy
>>suspect in her definition of feminism. call me a cynic...
>O.K., I will :) Probably so would Camille Paglia, Candida Royalle,
>Helen Gurley Brown, and Joyce Carol Oates.
I haven't read the article, so I can't really comment on the content.
However, playboy has a certain editorial voice and agenda to maintain, and
that voice has not always been known for it's respectful treatment of
women. There are exceptions, and there may be many reasons why a feminist
may want to write for playboy (into the lion's den?). However and article
written by a feminist claiming large breasts are empowerment sounds awfully
"convenient" to playboy's view of the world. Since I haven't read what was
said, I cannot say it's bunk or fair, but it does have my warning flags up.
>>Unfortunately we
>>live in a world where a woman with large breasts can get more out of a man
>>than a woman with a large brain. I would prefer not to further that or
>>call that "empowerment"
>As Paglia has often pointed out, who is in control? The man sitting in
>the strip-club, ready to be tossed out the door the moment the bouncer
>thinks he's being improper, or the dancer who has the attention of the
>entire bar, and is actually making a fortune. (Certain clubs
>excepted)-She is not touched, fondled, nor expected to *put-out*. And
>she has men literally coming in their pants.
if a woman has to resort to showing her body rather than her smarts to have
any sort of "power", it's a pretty sad state of affairs. What she is doing
in a strip club is showing herself as an object (not a whole person), and
making money by selling the (unfulfilled) promise of sex. She dances to
elicit a sexually driven response and that's what men are paying for. She
could be any woman, any warm female chunk of anatomy. Personally I don't
buy the argument that strippers are really in control of much at all.
Often they are told how to dance and what to remove by the club owners or
patrons' wallets. One can say they choose to be strippers, but then, how
many choices do women have to make that much money for that much effort
when men basically control the workplace. A man is free to get up and
leave the club if he doesn't like something, but I'm not sure most
strippers have that freedom if they want to keep their job. The man is the
one with the money, who will or will not give it to the stripper if she
dances a way he likes and therefore I say he has the power. The situation
is rather base for both the man and the woman. The man has brought himself
there by his own free will, but not all strippers can say the same--some
are strippers because they have no financial choice. I know some enjoy it,
and have a good time, don't mind being only a body (perhaps with some
dancing skill in rare cases), enjoy the money and that is their choice and
I don't begrudge them that (see below on choice vs external forces). I
don't think they are really helping other women who are fighting to be
recognized for something other than their bodies and fighting the harmful
stereotypes, but that's a personal choice for them.
Personally I would perfer to see women brought to equivalency in as many
aspects of social realms as possible, rather than give them a niche where
their (arguable) "power" is based solely on anatomy and a situation formed
by the sale of sex.
>No, the quote from the movie is *What's wrong with being sexy?* To
>which the woman replies something to the effect of *sex-IST, not sexy*
>Nice reference though.
yah, I know the exact quote, but the sentiment is the same. :)
>>The presentation and context makes a difference to me between sexy and
>>sexist. Is there a contextual reason for the female depicted to show huge
>>breasts and cleavage or skin?
>Well, if it's Baywatch, yes...
exactly. I don't have a problem with that. There are many contexts where
a woman with large breasts or nearly naked makes perfect sense to be
shown--Elivra, Baywatch, even Fastbreak, which is a reference to a more
crass era (although I question the wisdom of that--would we accept an Amos
n' Andy or Song of the South pin today? How about a modern pin with the
"shoot a jap" theme common in america during WW2? even as a historical
piece?)
Basically the criteria for me would be: Can the story be told the same way
without it? If yes, then it's gratitous. If not, then it belongs.
Fastbreak is an interesting contradiction--it is a reference to a more
gratitous, sexist era (something I can forgive given the culture and
mindset and audience of pinball of that era). The art is utterly crass,
but you couldn't use that theme without it. I still find it offensive, but
necessary for the theme desired.
>NO ONE is asking Cassandra Peterson to do what she does. She is a
>mature, full-grown adult, who also happens to be a great business
>mind. I'm sure she's be stunned to be called sexist. I suppose you
Of course she has a great business mind. My point was not that Elivra is
being taken advantage of or she's being victimized by anyone. She has
constructed her entire on-air personality by herself and been very
successful at it. However, I don't think that most people (men) who like
Elvira like her because of her mind, her business prowess, or even what she
says (as opposed to how she says it). She has made her career out of
selling her breasts and seductive vamp style. But what she is doing is
sexist to me because it does not do anything but promote the concept of
woman as sex object (damn, I said it. I was trying to avoid that
cliche...)
In the case of the Elivra pins, you couldn't have an Elivra pin without
her breasts, and I'm not at all offended by the skin and cleavage. It
belongs there. I have respect for what Elivra has been able to do for
herself from a business perspective, by leveraging the sex selling in an
original way, but it's still the same old snake oil. I wouldn't call what
she has done feminist since she has done nothing to level the playing field
between men and women in any way or promote respect for women (except those
who can see past her breasts and to what she has been able to acheive).
(one could make the same argument about her power as one does for the
stripper) But being a feminist is not what Elivra is about--she is about
making money for herself by ______ ___. I would prefer we had a world
where a self made woman could uses her brains openly rather than by
leveraging the unequal and lizard-brained reality we have now.
>would view MAe West as sexist, even though she was one of the first
>women in Hollywood to call her own shots. I ask you this(and i said it
Mae West understood very well that sex sells. Madonna knows this too.
Just because she is the one doing the selling doesn't make what she does
any less damaging. While a woman setting up her own shots was a
progressive idea for the time, I wonder how well that would have flown with
the men in charge if she wanted to show less skin and breast and wanted to
be known for something other than her seductiveness. She was allowed to do
it because she was willing to take it even farther than the men of the time
dared. Because she understood that sex sells and she wanted to sell it
well.
>earlier in this thread): Why is it when a pinball machine, or an ad
>agency, or a *men's* magazine throws a busty woman on a
>backglass/billboard/cover, everyone screams EXPLOITATION!!, but when
>Cosmopolotian or any one of a number of *Women's* magazines does it,
>no_one_flinches?
What is the purpose of the image of the woman? In your first situation, it
is to sell a product by associating it with the promise of sex. Not really
the case in the second (although Cosmo's agenda is to teach a woman how to
get what she wants in a man's world. realistic and pragmatic, but not
really ideal feminism. Cosmo basically presents women how it feels women
should present themselves to please men, catch men, etc.).
>Because-part of the triumph of feminism is this:
>Women have earned the right to say *I enjoy being myself. Part of that
>self is sexual. This is how I choose to display it.* To reduce every
A woman has a right to display her sexual identity as she sees fit for
herself. However, what I am talking about it women (fictional or real)
displaying themselves how men want them to for the purpose of selling sex
(directly or indirectly, fulfilled or not) or associating the woman's
sexuality with a product. In advertising, the model is the last one with
control over how he or she appears (unless she has a really big name).
This can go both ways, with chippendale men appearing next to a woman in a
certain pair of jeans, but it happens so rarely it is usually done for
shock value.
Unfortunately, since culture and finances can confuse the issue about how
a woman wants to display herself, it's a gray area. A woman who
understands that she'll go much farther and make more money if she shows
more skin might be inclined to say she wants to show herself naked because
she knows what it will get her. If that were not the case, if she were to
make LESS money or break even if she showed more skin, would she still make
the same decision? the economics, fashion, peer pressure, and social
climate in which a woman's "free" decision is made is hard, maybe
impossible, to isolate. Is the woman showing her sexual self for herself
or is she doing it because there are outside influences, or a mix? One of
the most important feminist wins is a woman's ablility to choose to do what
she wants. But what hasn't really happened it yet is the freedom to make
that choice free of external influences set up by men, or men's respecting
of that decision making. Certainly every woman has to have the right to
make her own decisions, but I wouldn't call a decision honest until the
sexist factors going into that decision have been removed. That doesn't
mean a woman can't dress up in a sexy outfit, if that's what she wants to
do, but I feel she should be doing that because that's really what she
wants, not what she feels she can benefit by doing, feels forced to do,
wants to do because that's the way her husband likes it, wants to do it
because she saw it on TV, etc.
>I own a Jessica Rabbit novelty necktie. It shows jessica from the
>waist up, full cleavage. I get more compliments from women on that tie
>than I do from men. Most women I know do not have a problem with their
>sensual side.
well, I find it hard to believe Jessica has made her own decisions on how
to appear. Jessica and artwork on pins is designed, planned and crafted
for specific purposes. Fictional women are created (just as models in ads
and actors in film are really fictional representations) to meet a certain
requirement. When that requirement is to use sex to sell or to sell sex, I
find it insulting to my decision making capacity and harmful to women and
men who wish to be valued for their mind and accomplishments (women are the
ones who have had a long battle with this however).
>This is where we agree to disagree. By saying any woman posing in a
>provocative manner is a tramp/whore, you yourself degrade women. You
>are, in effect, saying that *In order for a woman to be respectable,
>she must therefore be asexual.*. That's the old Madonna/Whore complex
no, not necessarily. Not every women posing in a provacative manner is a
whore. Those who pose that way in order to manipulate, sell something,
etc. are doing something different than a woman, a REAL woman, who CHOOSES
to present herself in a way that because she wants to and has a reason to
(preferably a reason that is not based on selling sex, blah blah). A woman
who is sexual can be respectable, as long as she is taken in her entirety,
not just her sexual aspects presented in isolation and as the sole purpose
of her being.
Any fictional woman is represented in a certain way for a reason, and that
reason could make sense by context, or it could have an agenda. That
reason for being the way she is will determine if I feel if she is being
represented in a sexist way or not.
>wrapped up in a new, politically-correct package. Yes, folks at the
>office tends to think less of you is you're falling out of your dress,
>but that's a specific environment-the workplace.
I don't think it's confined to the workplace, nor do I think it's isolated.
>>While I would rather look at an attractive woman than an ugly one,
>Thank you for admitting as much. And most women would rather look at
>an attractive man. Does that make a male model *sexist* for developing
>his abs & butt and appearing in underwear ads?
(we seem to be overloading the term sexist here. Sexism can mean several
things, from a prejudice one has based on another's sex to the use of sex
to sell to objectification of people.)
While men can be victims of sexist and exploitation, I don't think that's
where the majority of injustice is at. Men already have the benefit of
being able to succeed while being ugly, can get high pay for unskilled
work, control the workplace (and often the family), have the money, etc.
They aren't fighting the uphill battle. But by the definition I'm using,
if an image of a man is promoting a product through the promise or sale of
sex, it is sexually manipulative. Since being mostly naked is a pretty
much a requirement of selling underwear, I don't think really they are
selling sex so much as showing the product. And in that case, being fit
and attractive is not offensive to me. I'm seeing the skin because it's a
requirement of selling the product, the story could not be told without it.
While a less attractive model might be more representative of the actual
consumer and get a little further away from the "danger zone", I don't find
it gratituous. In the case of lingerie, the purpose of showing the
product is to show how the product will actually be used, which would be to
entice sex. So using sexy models in provactive poses there makes sense
given the product represented. But selling cigarettes, liquor, jeans,
cars, or pinballs by attaching sexy people in sexy ways to the product
bothers me. Being attractive is (or can be) different than being sexy.
>Backglasses never have influenced where my quarter goes. You do have a
well, no one admits to be influenced by advertising either, but it does
seem to have an effect when the balance book is closed. Certainly I would
choose game play over other criteria, but when it comes to making a choice
between several similar machines and all things look equal, I'll play a
twilight zone before I play a gilligan's island. We all vote with our
quarters.
>point in that when it gets gratuitous, it's ridiculous. However, I
Well, that was my basic point, is that often the art is gratitous and has
no reason for being there. Pinball being a physical activity does not fly
as a justification for me, and I think it's overdue to get away from the
historical legacy of big breasted women. But there are times when big
breasts and skin are not gratitous and then it's perfectly justified.
Perhaps I may not like the theme chosen, but there are themes that give a
valid context for sexy or even sexist artwork. But when there's really no
reason for it, it bothers me as a cheap manipulation and promoting damaging
stereotypes.
>think you're being overtly sensitive.
at times when the mass is far off from the desired position, it may become
necessary to swing farther than your desired position just to get the mass
moving in the correct direction. Far be it from me, a founding member of
the "ban dihydrogen-monoxide" movement to promote blind, knee jerk
political correctness. I'm far more pragmatic than that but right now not
everyone seems to be very aware. If I begin to see the over-sterilzation
of pinball, I'll be one of the first to cry out. But right now I think
the balance is still on the gratitous side.
>Again, this is NOT a personal attack. Merely throwing in more than my
>$0.50.
again, I thank you for that. It's nice to find someone who is capable of
disagreeing at an intellectual level and not resort to flames so common in
the digital forum. I welcome your opinions and an open, adult discussion
of the issue is likely to be far more productive. Patrick Henry said
something to the effect of "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll
fight to the death for your right to say it" (is that the national anthem
I hear in the background?)
Larz
pin...@phobe.com
Jef Lepine
john (salv...@charlotte.infi.net) wrote:
: Sounds like a FEMONAZI to me! Just kidding, but please tell me where the
: sexist pictures are in DINER, Whirlwind, High Speed... etc.... Hell look
: at Sega's Bay(Babe)watch if you really want to see something blatant.
Jeeze, I go away to PF97 and the shots at SEGA come from a different
angle! It seems you may have this one a bit wrong here; Baywatch was and
still is a licenced theme here, much like Scared Stiff. When making
anything based on a tv show, movie, cult hero; a company will try and take
it's selling point and exploit it any way they can. Seeing both Elvira and
Baywatch use their voluptuousness as their selling points, it's no
wondering their respective games use those same selling points to attract
people, ie MEN.
This isn't anymore SEGA's fault than WMS so please please please layoff
both company's on exploting women, especially on these licenses.
-=Jef Lepine=-
Maintainer of the MA/NH Area Pin-dex;
A list of pinball machines in this area.
http://www.tiac.net/users/jlepine/pin.htm
john
I could not agree with you more Jeff, my response was only really directed
at the person who went on a tirade about exploitation.
Jef Lepine <jle...@ops.tiac.net> wrote in article
<5r6uj4$i...@news-central.tiac.net>...
Scott Piehler
om...@phobe.com (Phobes) wrote:
>>Heading WAYYYYYYYYY off topic here.
>well, yes, we do run the risk of falling into a rathole way off the topic
>of pinball here... I think here and there pinball comes up in this
>discussion. ;)
Just a quick FYI to r.g.p.- In the interest of bandwidth and staying
on topic, I have moved this discussion to email 'tween me & Larz.
Anyone wants to join in, feel free.
Scott
Phobes
In article <01bc97d4$565e1ac0$75f964ce@salvador>, "john"
<salv...@charlotte.infi.net> wrote:
>Sounds like a FEMONAZI to me! Just kidding, but please tell me where the
>sexist pictures are in DINER, Whirlwind, High Speed... etc.... Hell look
>at Sega's Bay(Babe)watch if you really want to see something blatant.
Ahem...close, but that would be "FEMINAZI".
Which makes me a SPELLINAZI.
Sparky
(Who might just customize her Twilight Zone to picture Rod Serling in a
*very* tiny Speedo. So there.)
Wei-Hwa Huang
om...@phobe.com (Phobes) writes:
>exactly. I don't have a problem with that. There are many contexts where
>a woman with large breasts or nearly naked makes perfect sense to be
>shown--Elivra, Baywatch, even Fastbreak, which is a reference to a more
You mean Breakshot, right?
>between several similar machines and all things look equal, I'll play a
>twilight zone before I play a gilligan's island. We all vote with our
>quarters.
Gilligan's Island has more girls on the backglass, I think.
All TZ has is Talky Tina. Maybe the robot is female? It does have a
rather large breast ... :-)
>of the issue is likely to be far more productive. Patrick Henry said
>something to the effect of "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll
>fight to the death for your right to say it" (is that the national anthem
>I hear in the background?)
It's attributed to Voltaire, although research confirms that he didn't
say it, but rather a much less impressive paraphrase. Patrick Henry's
quote is "Give me Liberty or Give me Death!"
I must confess that I didn't even notice there was a woman on the TOM
backglass until my second game. Even then, TOM does break from
sexual sterotypes in that the MAGICIAN is female. Standard stereotype
is a male magician with his pretty female assistant.
While on this issue, why are most characters on pinball backglasses
white/Caucasian? The only exceptions I can think of from the top
of my head are Danny Glover on LW3 and Levar Burton on TNG. Perhaps
ToTAN don't "really" depict Caucasians, but it sure seems like it --
and I've NEVER seen an Oriental on a pinball machine that wasn't
depicted in a negative stereotype.
The only pin I've ever found slightly sexually repulsive was GNR, with
"Patience" and "Michelle" (very provocative) on the outlanes, and
that match sequence.
And, the only set of large breasts on backglasses that I've ever really
stared at was from Bally's "Mousin' Around". Boy, I must really
be perverted...
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
finger me for /etc/passwd
john
Sounds like a FEMONAZI to me! Just kidding, but please tell me where the
sexist pictures are in DINER, Whirlwind, High Speed... etc.... Hell look
at Sega's Bay(Babe)watch if you really want to see something blatant.
Thanks
Phobes <om...@phobe.com> wrote in article
<omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>...
Phobes
In defense of the tirade, you may have missed the point(s). Unfortunately,
the tirade is split between two threads, split between two different points
I was trying to make. The point of the demi-tirade in THIS thread was that
we should NOT stop expressing our displeasure when a company produces crap
because we respect and enjoy other aspects of their entity. Silence would
be more harmful than criticism.
If you read the other half tirade (which I wouldn't if I were you, it's
quite tedious. Look in alt.pinball.feminism or something...), you'll
hopefully find the half-buried point about sexist art without context (at
least if you're talking about MY tirade--there have been others :).
Summary: On pins like Elvira and Baywatch and certain others, the license
and theme dictates the art, and sexy, possibly sexist, images are necessary
to tell the story, stay true to the theme, etc. The tirade does NOT state
_all_ machines had sexist art, or that art of scantily clad large breasted
trampy women was always exploitive, out of bounds or gratitous.
Simply that SOME machines, old and new, have women depicted in a way that
serves absolutely no purpose other than gratitous titillation (sorry,
couldn't resist the pun). Pinball has a long history of it, and it comes
from a different (lack of?) sensibility of a different age, but today I
find it unnecessary, annoying, and retrograde--some find it offensive and
juvenile. Again, I'm only talking about the unjustified stuff--if someone
wants to make a pin called Hooters or T&A or Cheesecakes or Miss Nude
Universe, I wouldn't say that big breasts and/or skin don't belong or are
inappropriate (I might debate the wisdom of the decision to make such a
themed pin, but that's a separate battle). If the license, story, theme,
etc. calls for it, fine. But if it's gratitous and unnecessary (and it
still happens from time to time even on today's machines) I will voice my
opinion about it regardless of other (independent) points like how long
they company's longevity, playfield/rules design, etc. (Just like how I
really hate how Williams' defaces otherwise very fun 90's playfields with
garish 80's neon pink and green on the playfields. blech!) But for now
you're safe since, like most of you, I'm very tired of this thread.
I'm going to go design the playfield for a Leisure Suit Larry pin now...
Larz
pin...@phobe.com
Phobes
>people to worry about then women on pins. If you don't like machines
>with "Scantily clad women", then go play one of the several dozen
>violent fighting video games in which people get their heads ripped
>off, and blood pours out.........maybe a better alternative to
>"Scantily clad women?"
Oh, there are plenty of buxom bikini babes in fighting games now days.
Somehow they manage to keep the tube top on while doing a triple back flip
side kick into some bare chested He-Man's spleen. I guess having a
"secret move" allowing the top to fly off would be too intense for the
kiddies, so they stick with spinal cord removal and gall bladder chomping
secret moves....
Larz
pin...@phobe.com
Jeff Cochran
>Sparky
>(Who might just customize her Twilight Zone to picture Rod Serling in a
>*very* tiny Speedo. So there.)
Umm... Let's not go there please... :)
Jeff
(Besides, I *like* scantily clad women, on or off the pinball
artwork!)
john
Yes it was a typo, and yes you are NUTS!!!
Phobes <om...@phobe.com> wrote in article
<omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>...
> In article <01bc97d4$565e1ac0$75f964ce@salvador>, "john"
> <salv...@charlotte.infi.net> wrote:
>
> >Sounds like a FEMONAZI to me! Just kidding, but please tell me where
the
> >sexist pictures are in DINER, Whirlwind, High Speed... etc.... Hell
look
> >at Sega's Bay(Babe)watch if you really want to see something blatant.
>
> Ahem...close, but that would be "FEMINAZI".
>
> Which makes me a SPELLINAZI.
>
Tom Gaworski
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:38:26 GMT, ros...@mindspring.com (Scott
Piehler) wrote:
>jcoc...@gate.net (Jeff Cochran) wrote:
>
>>d...@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu (David McCullough Dobson) wrote:
>
>>>I realize scantily-clad women seem to be a recurring theme in pinball art,
>>>for reasons I don't really understand, but was this how they all were back
>>>then? Did anyone care? Even that outrageously silicone-enhanced referee
>>>on World Cup Soccer looks downright matronly compared to these "Fantastic"
>>>women.
>
>As far as the overall sexiness of 70's pinball, as has been pointed
>out, Dave Christensen was responsible for most of it. But, again, we
>must remember the audience. Pinball is still OVERWHELMINGLY skewed
>male, and nobody really thought much of it. Harmless fun for the most
>part. Sensibilities have changed a bit in the modern era.
>
>I should add one thing before I get trashed by the Political
>Correctness brigade. People often talk about objectification of women
>with things like busty backglass illustrations, billboards, pin-up
>shots. Why is it no one ever complains about magazines like
>Cosmopolitan, which typically show someone falling out of a dress that
>*almost* fits them? (I suppose it *is* an improvement over the current
>Kate_Moss_on_heroin look that's (dis)gracing the fashion pages these
>days) I've always wondered about that. Anyhow, back to pinball.
>
>Yes, one could take offense at some of the artwork over the years.
>But, pinball has always had a *naughty* reputation. Take a look at the
>backglass of a Silverball Mania! Believe me, for those of you who grew
>up after the 70's- the concept of a *family Arcade* is a new one. The
>old summer boardwalk arcades were as close as we got to respectability
>for quite_some_time, and even that was questionable.
>
>
>Scott
>Scott Piehler (RSP)- Atlanta, GA
>An archive of Pinball Rulesheets as well as
>a list of newer pins in the Atlanta area can be found at
>http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/pinball.htm
You hit the nail on the head Scott! I grew up playing 70's machines,
and still enjoy that era of artwork, There are many other things for
people to worry about then women on pins. If you don't like machines
with "Scantily clad women", then go play one of the several dozen
violent fighting video games in which people get their heads ripped
off, and blood pours out.........maybe a better alternative to
"Scantily clad women?"
Tom Gaworski
"Lover of the Jack in the Box!"
CDjukebox9
I'm interested in Gene's forthcoming book. If ya can, please forward his
address to me at CDjuk...@aol.com
Thomas
Thomas Teeter CDju...@aol.com
Absolutely Great Games
Repairs, parts, rentals, game sale
Kyle Miller
Just in case you do, you better talk to us first. I think we have right of
first refusal... : )
Phobes <om...@phobe.com> wrote in article
<omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>...
Wei-Hwa Huang
TheMad...@home.com (Tom Gaworski) writes:
>people to worry about then women on pins. If you don't like machines
>with "Scantily clad women", then go play one of the several dozen
>violent fighting video games in which people get their heads ripped
>off, and blood pours out.........maybe a better alternative to
>"Scantily clad women?"
I take you haven't noticed that most fighting video games have
scantily clad women getting their heads ripped off. And they're
usually the stronger characters, too.
Howard Rubin
In article <omni-ya02408000R...@snews.zippo.com>,
Let's face it, no message that can be answered with this form deserves
any other attention. If they have something to say, the _least_ they can
do is avoid the junk this form responds to.
Response form for replying to Feminist messages.
-----------------------------------------------
Your message is Feminist because:
[ ] You began your message by deliberately misstating the
previous poster's views.
[ ] Your misstatement parrots a line created by a
Feminist spin-doctor.
[ ] And there's no way a fair-minded person could
get that out of what the previous poster said.
[ ] You dishonestly tried to position your Feminist demands
as "equality".
[ ] You responded to a good argument by changing the subject
[ ] to attack men
[ ] to paint women as victims.
[ ] You treated your anti-male assumptions as fact.
[ ] Your arguments apply just as much against women as
against men.
[ ] Your arguments apply just as much for men as for women.
[ ] Instead of arguing issues, you
[ ] told a suspicious anecdote.
[ ] described your sexist image of a "typical case"
[ ] which is oddly similar to a made-for-TV
movie.
[ ] cast aspersions on the previous poster's
masculinity.
[ ] You blamed men for bad things done to men, an approach
you would call "blaming the victim" if done to a woman.
[ ] You called men war-makers.
[ ] You can't seem to distinguish between being sent
to war and liking war.
[ ] You implied that only national leaders are
representative examples of men.
[ ] You neglected to mention the many female
national leaders who have made war.
[ ] (Only if the Feminist poster is female) Since
you run no risk of being sent to war yourself,
it's easy for you to make grand pronouncements.
[ ] You claimed or implied that men or "white males" are
well treated by society. (False)
[ ] You invoked the Frontman Fallacy, which is looking at
what _sex_ influential people are instead of looking at
_what they actually do_.
[ ] You implied that because one or more social institutions
are not specifically dedicated to women, they are
therefore specifically dedicated to men.
[ ] You claimed or implied that domestic violence is
committed primarily by men against women. (False)
[ ] You don't seem to be aware of any research on
the issue, such as Straus & Gelles, Steinmetz,
Mcneely, etc.
[ ] You referred to Straus & Gelles, but in context
they don't say what you said they said, they say
the opposite.
[ ] You claimed or implied that when women commit domestic
violence, it's usually or always self-defense. (False)
[ ] You don't seem to be aware of any research on
the issue, such as Mann.
[ ] You repeated the myth that the single largest cause of
injury to a woman in the U.S. is domestic violence. (False)
[ ] You claimed or implied that women earn significantly
less than men for the same work. (False)
[ ] But you couldn't explain why any employer would
hire a man if they could get a woman cheaper.
[ ] And it didn't occur to you to try.
[ ] You claimed or implied that men control more money than
women. (False)
[ ] You ignored the relevant fact that women control more
money than men.
[ ] You claimed or implied that women's standard of living
falls after divorce while men's rises. (False)
[ ] You even cited Lenore Weitzman's "research",
which even she herself has had to admit was
nonsense.
[ ] But when someone offered to bet you real money
on the question, you ducked and changed the
subject.
[ ] You used "Feminist" and "woman" as interchangeable
terms.
[ ] You used "Feminist" and "man" as opposite terms.
[ ] (Only if the Feminist poster is male) You tried to use
the fact that you are male to backstab fairness to men.
[ ] You mischaracterized men as "trying to evade parental
responsibilities", responsibilities that women can
choose to avoid.
[ ] You didn't explain how a woman who aborts is
any different.
[ ] You didn't explain how a woman who unilaterally
puts a baby up for adoption is any different.
[ ] And you don't seem to realize that women
are allowed to do that alone and men
aren't, in general.
[ ] You didn't explain why sex should equal consent
to fatherhood but not consent to motherhood.
[ ] And you ignored cases where a man or boy
was raped and sued for child support,
such as Shane Seyer, raped at 13 by his
babysitter.
[ ] You didn't convincingly explain how an
artificial insemination sperm-donor is different
than a casual fling for purposes of getting
pregnant.
[ ] But you did imply that the difference is
that the man enjoyed sex and therefore
has to be made to pay.
[ ] You used crass phrases like "keep it holstered"
or "you play, you pay".
[ ] But it never occured to you to apply
those same phrases to the woman.
[ ] You implied that the existence of contraceptives
is sufficient protection.
[ ] You didn't explain why that's not
sufficient for women.
[ ] You ignored cases where the man used
contraception and it failed.
[ ] ...by sabotage from a woman who
later collected "child support"
[ ] You ignored cases where the woman
claimed to be using contraception, but
was lying.
[ ] You claimed or implied that people who oppose Feminists
are just threatened by strong women.
[ ] You claimed or implied that Feminism is pro-equality.
(False)
[ ] You used the phrase "Feminism is about people."
(False unless the people are female)
[ ] If you believe that, you should
[ ] Pull your nose out of Ms. Magazine
[ ] Start believing Feminism's actions
instead of Feminism's words
[ ] Read a newspaper.
[ ] Watch the news
[ ] Check into the nearest lunatic asylum.
[ ] And you didn't explain that "Femin-" in the
name.
[ ] And you have never taken issue with the people
who say Feminism needn't do anything to help
men.
[ ] And you have said it yourself.
[ ] You answered an observation about systematic unfairness
to men by asking why Feminism should do anything to help
men.
[ ] You didn't explain why Feminism, which itself
appeals to pity so often, should display such a
callous attitude toward men.
[ ] You yourself have made Feminist appeals to pity.
[ ] ...just now.
[ ] You have never taken issue with the people who
say Feminism is about equality
[ ] And you have said it yourself.
[ ] You claimed or implied that differences in the skills
and behaviour of men and women are all caused by
socialisation. (False)
[ ] You used a false dichotomy, painting cultural
determinism as the only alternative to
biological determinism.
[ ] You tried to block criticism of Feminism by demanding
that every statement about Feminism must apply to every
last Feminist.
[ ] You mentioned Christina Hoff Sommers as your
representative good Feminist
[ ] But you didn't mention the Feminist
attack-Christina hotline.
[ ] You also didn't mention successful Feminist
attempts to ban CHS from panel discussions on
TV.
[ ] You didn't mention any of the other Feminist
attacks on CHS either.
[ ] But you did condemn CHS for erroneously calling
the National Organization For Women the National
Organization Of Women.
[ ] And I had to reread the above to see
what the "glaring mistake" was.
[ ] And "For" instead of "Of" is silly
anyways.
[ ] And weren't you calling her an Antifeminist a
little while back?
[ ] You tried to block criticism of Feminism by describing
frequently-heard Feminist views as
Check all that apply:
[ ] Rare
[ ] Fringe
[ ] A few loonies
[ ] Non-existent
Check all that apply:
[ ] But you never actually criticize Feminists who
hold that view.
[ ] And you're ignoring a recent thread where those
views were defended.
[ ] And you have defended those views yourself
[ ] ...just now.
[ ] You tried to block criticism of Feminism by calling
someone a misogynist.
[ ] You claimed or implied that no man can know how awful
childbirth is.
[ ] And you said it to someone with a mother.
[ ] ... with a sister and nieces or nephews.
[ ] ... with a wife and kids.
[ ] ... who is female.
[ ] You equated Feminists' hatred for a birth-group (men)
with Antifeminists resistance to a hate-group
(Feminists).
[ ] You assumed without evidence that a given Antifeminist
is a traditionalist.
[ ] You used the spin-doctored phrase "want(s) to go
back to the past".
[ ] You imputed other political views to an
Antifeminist without evidence.
[ ] You equated Feminism with "progress".
[ ] You didn't mention Feminism's Victorian
attitudes toward sexuality.
[ ] You didn't mention Feminism's Medieval views on
castration.
[ ] You didn't mention Feminism's pre-historic
attitude toward science and objectivity.
[ ] You claimed there is no Feminist agenda.
[ ] You did so on a thread derived at some remove
from
[ ] An Affirmative Action thread.
[ ] An AB999 thread.
[ ] A Shane Seyer thread
[ ] A thread about the 6-year-old expelled
from school for sexual harrassment,
which meant kissing a fellow 6-year-old
on the cheek on request
[ ] A VMI or Citadel thread.
[ ] A Take Your Daughter To Work Day thread
[ ] A miscellaneous other thread in which
Feminists have defended the Feminist
agenda.
[ ] You didn't explain how it is that we've seen
literally thousands of Feminist posters
parroting the same party lines if there is no
agenda.
[ ] Despite the fact that the previous poster repeatedly
said they didn't hold this view, you continue to say
that they:
[ ] Wish women to be barefoot and pregnant in the
kitchen.
[ ] Wish no woman to hold a job
[ ] Oppose abortion on demand
[ ] Are a gun enthusiast.
[ ] Would like it if the poor starve
[ ] Hold other views they don't hold.
[ ] Your message includes gratuitous misandry.
[ ] You call men "males" and women "women".
[ ] You call men "patriarchal oppressors" and women
"wymmyn".
[ ] You use the spin-doctored term "patriarchy"
[ ] You display an unsympathetic attitude toward men
[ ] ... in regard to men's suffering
directly caused by Feminist activities.
[ ] Your .sig contradicts your post.
--
"Feminism is to female as racism is to race."
(Thanks to S.R.@C.I.C.O.)
HTH, HR.
Evan Wessel
The latest program revision from WMS/Midway for "Cruisin' World" video
driver adds scantily clad men to accompany the female cheerleaders.
Does this solve the problem, or is it irrelevant? Evan
--
pre '78 pinball tech tips at http://www.netaxs.com/~evan
Wei-Hwa Huang
vquon@*ngcan.com (vquon) writes:
>In article <5r7pp2$j...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu says...
>>I must confess that I didn't even notice there was a woman on the TOM
>>backglass until my second game. Even then, TOM does break from
>>sexual sterotypes in that the MAGICIAN is female. Standard stereotype
>>is a male magician with his pretty female assistant.
>>
>...I always thought it was the other way around, the female on the backboard
>is the assistant. Doesn't David Copperfield have his female assistants enter
>boxes, etc. and make them disappear only to reappear elsewhere? In the videos
>of TofM, the female does the same thing...actually, I err, she does look like
>the magician when she's escaping from the strait jacket, etc.
> Somebody straighten me out...especially when I have a TofM. Duh!?
David Copperfield uses a lot of different female assistants, and
it's pretty obvious that David himself gets much more showtime.
I'd say that the female in ToM is the magician.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
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