Shouldn't there have been a Family Guy on a test location somewhere?
Brian Saunders
patrol guys so well that they couldn't find it?
Whaddaya know up there guys?
Lloyd Olson
location hidden for half a day until rgp finds out, doesn't do much. LTG :)
"Brian Saunders" <bsau...@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1168529874.6...@k58g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Brian Saunders
On Jan 11, 12:33 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> No real reason to any more. They have players in the company. One game on
> location hidden for half a day until rgp finds out, doesn't do much. LTG :)
>
> "Brian Saunders" <bsaund...@consolidated.net> wrote in messagenews:1168529874.6...@k58g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Or did Stern finally disguise or hide one from the Chicago area pin
> > patrol guys so well that they couldn't find it?
> > Whaddaya know up there guys?
Yeah, those RGP guys ARE good, aren't they? I can imagine the Stern
guys shaking their heads when they went and picked up that POTC proto
game from that bar in Chicago and saw all the high scores.
Even though they might have good players at Stern, I still think it
would be of some value to have a knowledgeable factory employee hang
around a location for a while and observe the unbiased general
population's attitude towards a prototype game just to see what kinds
of things they would say about the gameplay and the art. Those of us on
here know that *we* are not the target audience for any given pin that
comes out, it's Joe Schmoe who's got a couple of beers in him and
decides to take on his pal on a two player game. That kind of guy can
be brutally honest.
Cayle George
of the test machines for under $500. Then just record the players as
they play.
-cAyle
Lloyd Olson
changes, especially art, and I seriously doubt even little ones. Programming
errors their factory people can find. Same with if and when any software
updates after the fact.
The days of a wide spead test program is over. And while Williams had a
large one, it was a vehicle to sell games, not make changes. LTG :)
"Brian Saunders" <bsau...@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:1168546606.1...@p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
PINAHOLIC
Wolffy
(but not everything) that goes on inside Stern.
According to him, Stern will not put games on test anymore for these
reasons:
1. No matter where they put one, RGP will find it.
2. There are a number of people in RGP who don't understand what BETA
software means and will post negative comments on RGP.
3. Operators come to RGP and read all the "I hate it" posts and do not
buy cause they feel they can not sell into the home market.
So from here on out Stern's Marketing campaign is "SHHH!" even though
the above logic seems so incredible flawed to me.
My opinion and projection: pinball needs positive hype like it has been
getting. With the "zero hype" apporach Stern is taking don't expect to
see them making pins after 2008, no one will know if they should buy and
the drunks in the bar will have no clue there are games to dump quarters in.
-wolffy
dxt178
Wolffy wrote:
> I had a discussion last night about this with someone who knows a bit
> (but not everything) that goes on inside Stern.
>
> According to him, Stern will not put games on test anymore for these
> reasons:
>
> 1. No matter where they put one, RGP will find it.
>
> 2. There are a number of people in RGP who don't understand what BETA
> software means and will post negative comments on RGP.
>
> 3. Operators come to RGP and read all the "I hate it" posts and do not
> buy cause they feel they can not sell into the home market.
>
> So from here on out Stern's Marketing campaign is "SHHH!" even though
> the above logic seems so incredible flawed to me.
>
> My opinion and projection: pinball needs positive hype like it has been
> getting. With the "zero hype" apporach Stern is taking don't expect to
> see them making pins after 2008, no one will know if they should buy and
> the drunks in the bar will have no clue there are games to dump quarters in.
>
> -wolffy
Having been a play tester for console games for a few years, I can
honestly say that #2 and #3 are legit concerns. It happens all the time
in Alpha/Beta stage games even when no public is involved and only
"professionals" are testing the game. It used to drive me absolutley
insane and I can imagine the designers/producers even moreso.
People just don't get it, they get to emotionally involved and attached
to an upcoming product and all the hype and the imaginations run wild
and then anything less gets slammed for no reason. Emotion plays no
part anymore when it comes to any upcoming game for me, and it is a
smart way to approach it. You'll only be let down always, your
imagination and personal desires are never going to get met or fully
met and the natural progression is then disappointment and anger.
The other problem though is the whole "drunks in bars" angle. There are
and will be plenty of used and old pins for drunks in bars long after
Stern would go under, and they will be just as fat, dumb, and happy...
it is us who suffer. I keep saying it and always will, pinball needs to
get away from that stigma and put back into places where the clientele
is older, more mature, and appreciates pinball... even moreso has the
money to maybe buy one for themselves.
Teens, kids, and drunks are rough on pins and that leads to broken
machines and abused games, and they have zero ability to buy one
themselves... so you put them in more targeted areas and you get just
as much play and free advertising to buy one for yourself and the
machines get less abuse, run better, and might sell a few. Key places
like Dave and Busters, mall arcades (where near me not one even has a
single pinball), and staples like bars/clubs are fine... but some
thought needs to be placed on getting them into new and different areas
where an older more mature player would likely be. D&B is good all
around since they do host parties and corporate functions and in the
evenings become over 21 only, but there needs to be more.
Its a big hurdle, and putting all your eggs in one basket of a license
is a bad idea... it is in console games and is in pinballs. STTNG had a
hell of a lot more fans than Family Guy, but remains low priced due to
the theme. Sometimes I just want a general theme and not a direct
tie-in, leave stuff to the imagination, let me think, let me make my
own associations. That's the exact reason game characters are
purposefully made to be bland and non-detailed so that the player can
put more of their own imagination into it and create an attachment.
I'd play No Good Gofers, WCS94, MM, etc. etc. over even TSPP (which I
love the Simpsons) not because they are tied to a show I like or even a
sport I like, but because they are fun and I have my own fun with them.
Dominic
Todd Lainhart
Wolffy wrote:
> With the "zero hype" apporach Stern is taking don't expect to
> see them making pins after 2008,
hmmm - talk about "incredibly flawed logic"...
frenchy
> hell of a lot more fans than Family Guy, but remains low priced due to
> the theme. >>
Who's to say it would not be selling for the same, if not even less, if
it was called 'Space Trip"?? Every generic game is not highly valued,
especially if what's under the artwork stinks.
<<Sometimes I just want a general theme and not a direct
> tie-in, leave stuff to the imagination, let me think, let me make my
> own associations. That's the exact reason game characters are
> purposefully made to be bland and non-detailed so that the player can
> put more of their own imagination into it and create an attachment.>>
I suspect a Stern gets a lot more home buyers from people who do love
the license, as opposed to if it was generic. Even if it's generic,
it's going to have SOME kind of theme... space, baseball, war,
whatever, and every one of those is going to appeal to some and not
others.
As for casual players dropping in a couple of quarters, they just want
a little game of fun pinball for 5 minutes, they aren't putting the
money in there because they want to create their own fantasy world
giving made-up personalities and names to generic characters.
bdie...@aracamerch.com
does Stern really give a crap about RGP? This seems like THE group in
the world of pinball, but surely Stern has bigger fish to fry (besides
the small market of home buyers). I think we forget that Stern is
making these games for PUBLIC use. What is said on this chat group
surely does not affect Joe Shmoe putting his quarter in the machine. .
. or does it?
dxt178
frenchy wrote:
> Who's to say it would not be selling for the same, if not even less, if
> it was called 'Space Trip"?? Every generic game is not highly valued,
> especially if what's under the artwork stinks.
I would say that if STTNG was laid out exactly the same but with some
non-licensed theme it would be more popular. I can't tell you how many
times I have heard: "I've never played it, I hate Star Trek" or "I'd
own one but I don't like Start Trek" or "yeah its a good game... etc"
It polarizes the players and the thoughts on the game based on the
theme and *not* the gameplay. That's what I'm saying. Sure if the game
sucks it will suck no matter what the theme is, but that's not the case
with STTNG it is a well designed and fun pin.
> I suspect a Stern gets a lot more home buyers from people who do love
> the license, as opposed to if it was generic. Even if it's generic,
> it's going to have SOME kind of theme... space, baseball, war,
> whatever, and every one of those is going to appeal to some and not
> others.
> As for casual players dropping in a couple of quarters, they just want
> a little game of fun pinball for 5 minutes, they aren't putting the
> money in there because they want to create their own fantasy world
> giving made-up personalities and names to generic characters.
I disagree, and having worked in game design and play testing as well
as studied the area, I think I have some insight to the issue. No one
builds a rich/detailed fantasy when they play Pac-Man, but what it does
allow for is the player to individualize the experience because it is
basic. There have been hundreds of studies on this phenomenon, and one
recent one involved two FPS (first person shooter) games one with a
fully detailed (including defined face) character that had a specific
voice and one that had an almost blurred face and less character detail
(less story, less specific locations, etc.) and almost every person in
the study went for the less detailed one. The funny part was they knew
they picked the less detailed one but could not explain why... its
almost subconsious. Pinball is a form of escapism, as is most
entertainment, and it is much easier to "escape" into non-rigid
scenarios.
If I have a Football themed pinball and a Kansas City Chiefs pinball
with Kansas City specific themes and play elements, which one do you
think would appeal to more people? Sure they're both football... see
what I mean? Family Guy, Simpsons, South Park, etc. are all cartoons an
if all things remained equal the one that would sell the most would be
the one with the biggest following. Licensed videogames suffer the same
fate, they are discounted by general gamers and only sought after by a
few devoted fans and generally they are disappointed with it because
"X" wasn't in it or "Y" was done "wrong." It's a bad position to be
tied to a license, you lose the creativity of the designers and more
time is spent trying to fit all kinds of stuff in because you have to.
It is tough, and I've worked with licensed and non-licensed projects
and I can without a doubt say the non-licensed projects were 10 times
harder to get done and get published and funded but were always more
fun for everyone involved in the design and more rewarding... whereas
the licensed ones were drudgery even with fans/enthusiastic staff on
the job.
Just my opinion FWIW,
Dominic
Mike Schudel
Gary Stern said at the factory tour that about 25% of all of Stern sales are
to the home market. Granted, most of these people are not necessarily rgp
participants, but that percentage doesn't sound like a segment of the pie to
ignore. Or does it? :-)
--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI
Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/yxzavc
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/8ua2n
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Dave Pauk
> Gary Stern said at the factory tour that about 25% of all of Stern sales are
> to the home market. Granted, most of these people are not necessarily rgp
> participants, but that percentage doesn't sound like a segment of the pie to
> ignore. Or does it? :-)
>
> --
> Mike S.
> Kalamazoo, MI
The general rule in business is that 80% of your revenue will come from
20% of our client base.
I'm guessing that the 25% that the home buyer represents is not
included in that 20%.
Stern builds games for the ops and Joe Public. Anything else is gravy.
Lloyd Olson
in fact be the same number of units. If their total production drops, then
home sale percentage goes up, but isn't actually increasing in numbers.
So if it were me, I'd be ignoring the 25% and concentrating on getting total
production back up. And the way pins are disappearing off the street, that
would take all of a companies efforts and then some. LTG :)
"Mike Schudel" <schu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45a7d3a1$0$4872$8826...@free.teranews.com...
Wolffy
play when out and about are sparse. With that model how do you breed a
new generation of pinball playing consumers? Where is this flaw you
speak of?
-wolffy
Wolffy
bdie...@aracamerch.com wrote:
> making these games for PUBLIC use. What is said on this chat group
> surely does not affect Joe Shmoe putting his quarter in the machine. .
> . or does it?
>
I would argue it does. I dumped quarters into pinball machine for years
before I bought my first one. Most everyone here has a story that
starts the same way. Why did we do that? Well, we found a game we
liked, it drew us in, and we continued to want to play it. That's means
we have identified things in games that worked.
When the PUBLIC comes along and dumps the quarters in to play a game,
don't you want them to have an experience that makes them want to come
back for more? Repeat business means more coin in the coin box, which
means more money for the op, which means the op might think "hey I might
have something here" and put the game in an additional location or two.
Within RGP is a signal to noise ratio. There are poeple here that don't
like a game and will flat out say it sucks without explaination. RGP
members know who these people are and know how to filter their comments.
Stern doesn't. Every post here on RGP has 100% credibility. Why,
cause Stern likes to miss-use the to tool that RGP is.
When I read RGP I filter which posts I read. I have meet a lot of the
regulars who post here and I head for their posts first. Why? More
signal, less noise. Will Steve Ritchie, Dwight Sullivan, Keith Johnson
and them read this very post? All indications point to yes. Will they
take anything I say seriously? All indications point to no. People who
have experiences, history, and a geniun love of the game are
insignificant when it comes to building a quality pinball machine (in
Stern's eyes). On the flip side trolls that post here have the highest
opinion significance.
So yes, Stern should care what is said here on RGP, but until they learn
to use the tool properly, they should pretend that RGP doesn't exist.
-wolffy
Todd Lainhart
> no one will know if they should buy and
> the drunks in the bar will have no clue there are games to dump quarters in.
...which is your conclusion of the argument that because Stern doesn't
put games out on test for the RGP regulars to play and comment on (on
rec.games.pinball), that operators won't buy and drunks won't play.
The flawed logic is that silence on a game in rgp would stop operators
dead-in-their-tracks on placing a purchase order, and that barflys will
hold their quarters until the Grumpy Old Men had their say.
OTOH, I find it completely reasonable that operators, who are told that
Stern machines will hold their resale value to the home market after
the op decides to flip it, would read some bad news by the rpg
lunatic-fringe and decide to hold off for the next title. People are
attracted to sensationalism, or else Gary wouldn't have as many replies
to his trolls as he does.
You don't breed a new generation of players on rgp. The gene-pool here
is pretty much stagnant from all the in-breeding.
BTW - I do find locations in MA that carry new Sterns. Not like the
early 90's but they're there.
Cayle George
"That's the exact reason game characters are
purposefully made to be bland and non-detailed so that the player can
put more of their own imagination into it and create an attachment.
"
frenchy
dxt178 wrote:
> I would say that if STTNG was laid out exactly the same but with some
> non-licensed theme it would be more popular. I can't tell you how many
> times I have heard: "I've never played it, I hate Star Trek" or "I'd
> own one but I don't like Start Trek" or "yeah its a good game... etc"
> It polarizes the players and the thoughts on the game based on the
> theme and *not* the gameplay. That's what I'm saying. Sure if the game
> sucks it will suck no matter what the theme is, but that's not the case
> with STTNG it is a well designed and fun pin.>
Yeah and everybody you are talking to plays regularly or owns pinballs.
What about all the people you don't know who NEVER play pinball, but
are familiar with ST, or like ST, or are downright ST fanatics? Those
people would normally walk right past a pinball but when they see a
STTNG they might say "wow, I HAVE to try this one!" There are millions
of those people. How many people collect pinball machines but don't
like ST? A few hundred??
dxt178
Cayle George wrote:
> Lol what platform are you testing on, the gameboy? :D
>
> "That's the exact reason game characters are
> purposefully made to be bland and non-detailed so that the player can
> put more of their own imagination into it and create an attachment.
> "
I have worked for Nintendo (SNES), Sony (PS1 and PS2), and have worked
on numerous PC games and MMO titles. That statement you quoted of mine
above is actually the result of a milti-million dollar design study. It
may seem funny to you, but I can assure you it is 100% accurate. Once I
get home I will be happy to post some links to this design theory and
the resulting studies and findings. You may be surprised.
Game design and theory is a vast area and I tend to enjoy discussing
pinball with game designers and testers because they experience the
same phenomenon... but it happens at a glacial pace with pinballs and
the market has never caught up to current times and thinking. In a way
it is nice and refreshing, in another way it is frustrating and
annoying. I still love pinball and believe me anything I say is meant
with nothing but the most respect and hope for pinball in the future.
Dominic
Rare Hero
I agree w/ this theory 100% ...I find myself way more emotionally
involved in games like Loco Roco and Katamari than anything that's
rendered w/ uber-realism and tons of acted cut scenes. Even games like
ICO and Shadow of the Colossus...the only dialog on the game is a
made-up gibberish language....but I get so much more sucked into those
worlds than similar games w/ more realism.
Greg
Beemus
living?!?!
Adam Preble
> Lol what platform are you testing on, the gameboy? :D
>
> > That's the exact reason game characters are
> > purposefully made to be bland and non-detailed so that the player can
> > put more of their own imagination into it and create an attachment.
Consider Nintendo's Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, a very big hit
-- sold 1.1 million in December. Link, the main character, hardly
speaks at all, and you never hear his voice. Same with the others.
His physical appearance is borderline androgynous, and he expresses
himself through facial expressions and physical movement. I think this
vagueness gives players room to get into the game.
In general, I personally tend to find licensed themes to be a turn-off.
By way of an example, not being into the movies, I didn't much care
for LOTR until recently. The bizarre names I didn't
understand/recognize (Voldemort, etc.) made it more difficult to
mentally map out the game. Only after I forced myself to play it at
friends houses was I able to start enjoying the game and build my
understanding of it. The games I'm most fond of -- Whirlwind, White
Water -- are not licensed themes.
Adam
pinballjim
Adam Preble wrote:
> I think this
> vagueness gives players room to get into the game.
Everyone is all in love with the uncanny valley theory lately and I
think it's crept into video games.
Briefly, it's the idea that we like things to have human features, but
you hit a threshold where it suddenly becomes a huge turn off and looks
extremely fake.
Cayle George
Anywho, I just dont like to see stuff like this stated as fact. This is
why the game industry is stuck in a rut and will be for quite some
time. Stylized games have their market, and games that push realism
have their market. Each serves their own purpose. In fact, many blend
the two. "Bland and non detailed" is rarely the case, where stylized
and detailed is often seen.
-cAyle
Abby Normal
Rare Hero wrote:
> I agree w/ this theory 100% ...I find myself way more emotionally
> involved in games like Loco Roco and Katamari than anything that's
Both awesome games! And another nice thing, you can play for a little
while, then walk away and pick it up later. It's the same thing I enjoy
about Animal crossing.
I was playing Kingdom Hearts 2, but I got bored of the endless cut
scenes. I just want to play a game, not watch a movie!
I think Loco Roco is once of the best games out there right now, I wish
they had it for the Nintendo DS (I have the DS, Adam has a psp).
Ja...@pinballsales.com
I heard there are 3 FGY games out on test in the Chicago Area
dxt178
theory I was talking about is as progressive as one could ask for... it
is the exact opposite of being stuck in a rut. If by "multiplayer"
games you mean FPS's then you are perpetuating the "rut" more than any
licensed product could. Licensed products and advertising in games is
now the hot new thing, if you think that is good for gaming you are
nuts. What I stated *IS* fact and has been proven out numerous times in
studies and research. Stylized and licensed are two different things.
Katamari is stylized, yet every paperclip and bottle don't have brand
names on them and none of the levels takes place inside a McDonalds.
The game market is beyond being stuck in a rut, they are happy to ride
out genre's to death and then some and innovation always takes a
backseat to licenses and branded material because ofthe costs of
production. If you work in this field this is all old news to you and
I cannot see how you could even begin to make the statement you have
above.
I figured by the one response that you worked in game design of some
sort, but I would *love* to hear more of your background, credentials,
and portfolio. I'll be content to agree to disagree, but you may want
to think twice about where those ruts come from and what keeps them
from being filled.
Dominic
Fred Kemper
In view of the recent posts here based on the
_photographs_ of their most recent release, it
sounds like a prudent move.
Go out and "vote" with your coins just like everyone
else. :) Bash/praise a _completed_title when it's on
a real location. Works for me.
Just wish new titles made their way farther South.... :((
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Wolffy" <sendnospa...@gaspar.net> wrote
wadel...@hotmail.com
with Kansas City specific themes and play elements, which one do you
think would appeal to more people? Sure they're both football... see
I agree with this statement entirely. I think the specific licenses
cause more people to turn away from a game than attract their
attention. It sure affects me, my wife, and other people I know. But
what do I know? Maybe Stern has actually studied this with test games.
Wade
Keith P. Johnson
I didn't realize simply being in the industry negated 14+ years of
USENET (not just rgp) experience. Though I suppose I have been on rgp
longer in the industry longer than I've been on it out of the industry
at this point. Guess that dulls the senses, huh? Believe you me, I
filter everything I read.
I read all opinions about most every game, but especially about Stern
games. I can guarantee you no one else at Stern does, though perhaps
someone occasionally forwards something to someone else in the
company. I have little doubt that that skews peoples' attitudes, but
in general I can tell you very few people even see what goes on here
let alone take it seriously or not.
I've been around a LOOOONG time. Not the longest, but I'm certainly
up there. And there are certainly peoples' opinions I value more than
others. I participate now because I was a participant in the past. I
give my thoughts on occasion because when I was a n00b I wished
industry folk back then would've done more of it. But ultimately,
there is a much larger group of people I must cater to other than just
rgpers, as much as I wish that weren't the case. And it is my firm
belief that rgp as a whole is more indicative of the pinball playing
public as a whole than most people give it credit for. Hell, plenty
of people think I spend too much time catering to a crowd like this as
it is, but given how things have worked out so far, I have no regrets.
And, if it seems like I took this a bit too personally, well, you
called me out, so I felt obligated to respond. But thank you for
purporting to understand how I (and/or we) do things.
keith
--
At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
Maybe someday they'll return...
Cayle George
Btw, I never meant to imply that licensed products or advertising are
good for any type of gaming - video or pinball. They have their place
in certain free products and the like, but I still dislike them. In
fact I wish stern would go the original IP route because I enjoy that
more. I think you and I are somewaht on the same page, just I feel your
remarks about realism in console/computer games are a bit one sided for
an industry which has many facets.
Its also hard to hold a conversation like this in a newsgroup thread :)
Take care,
-cAyle
cody chunn
I will be the first to admit that I have been abrasive towards many industry
insiders, much to my regret.
I appreciate very much your activity on RGP, both as poster and as reader,
but especially as a contributor of information. Thank you very much for
staying in touch with us wackos and shedding what insight you do. The posts
from you and Steve Ritchie and the others gives RGP a *good* name.
I hope in some miniscule way I contribute something occasionally that helps
the industry. Now who do I need to talk to to get my Marvel Universe
playfield design rolling? ;)
--
-cody
CARGPB4
"Keith P. Johnson" <pin-w...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:c7aiq25gvvbqkbnms...@4ax.com...
dxt178
> Please feel free to check me out:
>
> http://www.caylegeorge.com/
>
> Btw, I never meant to imply that licensed products or advertising are
> good for any type of gaming - video or pinball. They have their place
> in certain free products and the like, but I still dislike them. In
> fact I wish stern would go the original IP route because I enjoy that
> more. I think you and I are somewaht on the same page, just I feel your
> remarks about realism in console/computer games are a bit one sided for
> an industry which has many facets.
>
> Its also hard to hold a conversation like this in a newsgroup thread :)
>
> Take care,
>
> -cAyle
I agree, it is just hard to tell sometimes when with the internet
anyone can claim anything... hell you could say you are an
astrophysicist and I really would never know without some serious
research into it. Many people like to play "armchair" videogame
(pinball) analyst as well with no real knowledge besides their personal
opinions and love of games... which actually means very little.
I'm sure if you really are a designer then we are on the same page, its
hard not to be if you really live it. Its the same for everyone and in
the years I spent it opened my eyes and I learned a ton, most of it
flies directly against common sense and logic. A lot of it revolves
around the human experience and subconsious effects and even more plays
on the fact that many of us are "geeks" or "nerds" or outcasts in some
way.. and a lot of it revolves around the almighty dollar. I just wish
more revolved around smart, talented, creative people who actually get
the chance to use their creativity instead of being forced to churn out
licensed and mandated junk. I bet any money that even with the extra
money Stern makes from licensing they would make it up in sales of a
truly creative pin with no license. Its the same with videogames, it is
a cushiony safety net and too many people rely on it these days... it
kills creativity and stifles progression.
ehh, its just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own...
Dominic
P.S. And I didn't know until now you do work on FPS's so I wasn't
taking any jabs at you personally. Also, it still appears you are quite
new to the business, I'm sure you do good work but you have some time
to really learn the industry and a lot that goes on behind it as well
as design... it takes time. I never claim to even be slightly skilled
after 10+ years, and learn new theories and insights every day. Take a
look at Project Offset to see some real innovation in FPS's that is
against the grain, or Spore.
80's GUY!
kicking around here on the SC coast. Yeah, maybe its not like the Big
"W" in the best of days, but I will still stick a whole slew of 25
cent coins into the slots, if, in fact, just to think In my own crazy
way, that it helps to keep them going. Beyond next year: Please, please
support Stern! Once they go, it will be all downhill from here.
Cayle George
dxt178
On Jan 14, 3:17 am, "Cayle George" <caylegeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> gmafb...
No GMAFB. You've done some map work since 1999, and basically have had
one major job, and a new position so that makes you an expert? Please.
I tried to be mature and civil, but I could care less... keep your
views and opinions and I'll enjoy checking back to your website and see
a new position listed each 6months-1year as you bounce around on that
resume. Best of luck.
Cayle George
-cAyle
Timbre
views and opinions on a subject. If you don't like them, tough shit. Go
read another group. Plain and simple.
dxt178
keeps his particular outlook and opinions he will bounce around from
job to job and most likely be out of gaming in short order. I have seen
it many times and too many "brilliant" designers are too pompous to
actually learn and research real game design theory and work. I have
studied everything from ancient board games like Go, to every form of
game and design even in seemingly unrelated areas like card games,
magic tricks, etc. and it only makes you better. Even things like
watching and learning from some of films best directors helps build
moods, shots, angles, and colors. If you put blinders on and never
learn or understand what really makes games great, then you are going
to stagnate and flounder.
Once again what I stated in my first post on this was not *opinion* but
fact, which is what Cayle disagreed with. I said I'd post some links
and I will and end it. people can be their own judge:
http://gnovis.georgetown.edu/articles/pr009_Realism&SubjectivityF.pdf
http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2005-10-27.html#n77
http://www.slate.com/id/2132591/
And there are thousands more that illustrate the point, as well as much
more research. Men of Valor was above average, but not exceptional and
while the environments were decent there were quite a few rough spots
and poor animations and unfinished areas. If you think that is supposed
to make me not challenge someone's opinions your nuts. One game under
his belt and I have to bow to him? I don't think so.
I'm seriously not interested in flame fests, and in fact I will stop
posting any and all posts regarding personal opinions or thoughts to
RGP. I'll post when I need help figuring something out, or want to
buy/sell/trade, or shit on Gary which will always earn me favor. Yes I
have strong opinions, yes I will defend someone ignoring FACT, yes I am
tired of this.
Dominic
Beemus
Sounds like what I posted moments ago on another thread:
"Branch employees are fun. I used to work in the 24 customer service
call center. We always had branch employees and managers calling us and
asking "What do I do?" or we spent time clearing up their mistakes.
Yeah, I'm sure they hated us too. ;-) "
No, we CAN'T all get along. HAHA!
Steve
Actually, I am the OTHER guy at Stern (just down the hall, but we don't
see much of each other since WPT, not that we don't want to, we are
both working on other projects now), who reads rgp pretty much daily,
but my searches and scans are probably
different than yours.
My thoughts are that there are equal amounts of useful information and
dis-information on rgp. I read a lot of posts, especially when there
are hot or interesting debates. I only have a few filters, so I have
paid attention to most everyone. Some people have a clue, and others
don't.
I don't like to see known bad information passed on, and will respond
correctively with facts whenever possible. I also reserve the right to
discard info that isn't valid for me. I am listening.to everyone,
although the posts of some people get automatically dropped into my
brain registers and assigned a lower priority and lower credibility
response based on history. I can't help this. I read the lower
priority posts anyway, and 9 times out of 10, the registers are still
correct for the particular poster.
I will agree that there aren't many other people at Stern who pay any
attention at all to what goes on, on rgp.
Steve Ritchie
On Jan 13, 2:20 pm, Keith P. Johnson <pin-wiz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Wow.