Tech: Gottlieb Sys1 - Genie weirdness

[Mark Coward]

I just finished putting a Genie back together. The boards and other parts were in boxes for years. I just plugged her in last night.

All the gi works. The displays show all zeros, and the attract tune plays every 5 minutes or so. But I can't get it to take credits (the display sez 12) or use the ones it has; the credit button does nothing.

If I hit the slam switch, it tilts and in that state, if I simulate a ball in the outhole the kicker fires and the ball count decrements, until i get to game over, but that's all I can get out of her.

Each time I turn it on it's a little different. Sometimes there are no credits, sometimes there are fifty.

There wasn't a battery in it, and I haven't soldered one in yet. I hear tell that can cause some weird issues, but might it do all that?

Can I use the battery holder I made for my old Meteor with 3AAs and a diode for this machine too?

thanks a lot.

mark

[Mike Gervasi]

It's a different machine but my Centaur will show all zeros if it doesn't see a ball in the trough (missing ball behavior).

[ivan1496]

The fact that you got it to boot is half the battle. You’ll need to
check and correct the interconnect cable between the driver and mpu
There are tons of issues there that cause plenty of problems. This
cable is susceptible to acid damage a generally needs to be repined. A
replacement would be best but is difficult to find.

Can you run the limited diagnostics? I can’t give better advice at
this time, your problem is a bit vague. Additional details would be
required.

Ivan

[ivan1496]

On May 20, 4:53 pm, Mark Coward <nuttysht...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wouldn’t worry about the battery at this time. Its for the high
scores and nothing more. You will see it boot up with random crap
because there is no battery but it would function. I don't recommend
3AA's. This system requires a nicad 3.2v. I have no idea what 3AA's
would do but I suspect problems. PBR has the correct batteries.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Sounds to me like your switch matrix is TRIPPIN! Hope it's not the
spider chip. Lets all pray it's not the spider chip. OH GOD DON'T LET
IT BE THE SPIDER CHIP!!!!


--
RLy...@carolina.rr.com
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Btw, the attract tune playing every 5 minutes just means your sound
board works. Even with no mpu in the game, it plays every 5 minutes if
it's getting correct voltage and is attached to the speaker.

[seymour.shabow]

ivan1496 wrote:
>
> I wouldn�t worry about the battery at this time. Its for the high

> scores and nothing more. You will see it boot up with random crap
> because there is no battery but it would function. I don't recommend
> 3AA's. This system requires a nicad 3.2v. I have no idea what 3AA's
> would do but I suspect problems. PBR has the correct batteries.

To a 5101? 4.5 volts will do nothing harmful.... make sure you put a
blocking diode in or the charging circuit WILL do something harmful!

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

seymour.shabow;2074951 Wrote:
> ivan1496 wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn’t worry about the battery at this time. Its for the high

Yup, I think the diode drops the voltage a bit anyways. I've used the
standard 3 battery setup on System 1's with no problems, but really like
said above you don't need a battery for these, it's pretty useless.

[seymour.shabow]

RLy...@carolina.rr.com wrote:
> seymour.shabow;2074951 Wrote:
>> ivan1496 wrote:

>>> I wouldn�t worry about the battery at this time. Its for the high

>>> scores and nothing more. You will see it boot up with random crap
>>> because there is no battery but it would function. I don't recommend
>>> 3AA's. This system requires a nicad 3.2v. I have no idea what 3AA's
>>> would do but I suspect problems. PBR has the correct batteries.
>> To a 5101? 4.5 volts will do nothing harmful.... make sure you put a
>> blocking diode in or the charging circuit WILL do something harmful!
>
> Yup, I think the diode drops the voltage a bit anyways. I've used the
> standard 3 battery setup on System 1's with no problems, but really like
> said above you don't need a battery for these, it's pretty useless.
>
>

Well, stock 5101 can run on 5 volts and does when the game is on, so 4.5
is fine too. I think the retention level is around 2 or 2.5 volts which
is probably why everyone uses 3.2 rechargables on them, makes the
charging circuit easy, too.

You got to save HSTD's, it's fun to try and beat them :)

[Tim Polzin]

Do you get the 000000 displays immediately or after about 5 seconds with
a click of the relays under the playfield? If you get the display
immediately, it could be your slam switch is open.

Tim
'www.polzin.ca' (http://www.polzin.ca)


--
Tim Polzin

[Greg]

Mark-

Go to Clay's site and download the System 1 Repair Guide.

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/

Greg

[Mark Coward]

I get the 000000 displays immediately. The slam switches are closed. I opened the coin door one like in Clay's video, and I got the rolling display thing sort of like the video.

All the connectors on the mpu board look repinned already and fit tightly.

Here's what happens now almost every time:
I turn it on and hear a click and the four score displays show zeros. The ball in play and match display shows nothing. The usually after about 3 or 4 minutes, it'll make a big kachunk, and the tilt light will come on and the ball in play will now show one. Now if I close the outhole switch the ball in play increments each time until I use up 5 balls then all the gi comes back on and the ball in play shows "bb" and the game over lamp lights. All the score displays show zeros still, and then nothing else happens except the sound card playing the attract tune every few minutes.

The very first time I turned it on after the rebuild it sorta played for about 15 seconds before kachunk tilt: the drop target banks reset, and pop bumpers worked, etc. It hasn't since.

All the boards already have the modified ground set up.

I am so close, yet so far.

[phishrace]

As mentioned above, use Clay's repair guide. I would start by checking
+5V and -12V on the CPU.

-phish

[Mark Coward]

Done read Clay baby start to finish. Got all the right voltages at the cpu.

[ivan1496]

If your displays are rolling and come on immediately says that all the
switches aren’t satisfied for the cpu to successfully boot. You’ll
need to confirm that the switches are electrically closed. What I mean
is that a meter says its closed. Physically looking at it isn’t good
enough. A shortcut is to jumper it out. You could deal with it later.
The next switch is the anti-cheat. That’s the system to the left
inside the cabinet with the little ball in it. You’ll need to confirm
that its switch is closed as well. I believe that’s all that’s
closed.

I’d cycle power and see if the rolling stops. If it continues than I’d
inspect J6 and confirm that its good and tight. Cleaning the edge
connector of the CPU is recommended if there is still a problem with
an eraser or something. Even minor oxidation can cause problems.

Your close! really close! To getting it to boot properly that is.
You'll know as there is a delay after power up before the displays
come on.

[Greg]

It's either the slam switch circuit on the coin door or the bottom of
the playfield not being closed when the machine is turned on and
booted up.

I've seen too many problems exactly like this on all my Gottlieb
machines and they were ALL slam switch related with the symptoms you
are experiencing.

Anything in the slam switch circuit (diode, switch, wiring, driver
board, CPU) you name it, it could be the culprit.

Good luck!

Greg

[John Robertson]

Lockout wire jammed into coin switch is another reasonable suspect.

https://www.flippers.com/gott_system_1.html#work

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[Greg]

Good one, John! Forgot about the lockout wire...................but I
don't remember if this Genie had one. I may have removed it and the
coil, don't remember.

Greg

[Mark Coward]

Hey Greg! I am still stoked even so... The displays come on with zeros, but they don't do the slow strobe thing. They only do that when I manually hold open the slam switch on the door or the one in the tilt ball trough. But now you say there's one that has to be closed under the playfield too? I saw a slam switch there but it looked like it was intentionally sprung open. You're saying that should be closed too? I think I tried that, but I will look again.

Do I need a ball in the outhole on boot?

I checked the lockout wire thing. It was ok. I did disconnect the lockout coil. Is that ok on these machines too?

The thing is, it worked for about 30 seconds the very first time I turned it on.

hrmmm

[phishrace]

On May 21, 11:05 pm, Mark Coward <nuttysht...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Greg! I am still stoked even so... The displays come on with zeros, but they don't do the slow strobe thing. They only do that when I manually hold open the slam switch on the door or the one in the tilt ball trough. But now you say there's one that has to be closed under the playfield too? I saw a slam switch there but it looked like it was intentionally sprung open. You're saying that should be closed too? I think I tried that, but I will look again.

"Gottlieb used two slam switches in their pinball games and BOTH must
be CLOSED or the game will not function."

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm#slam

-phish

[Greg]

Mark-

Yes. What phish said, or rather, quoted.

If that slam switch under the PF ain't closed and there's no ball in
the outhole, that can cause definite weirdness not only in System 1,
but System 80 as well.

Greg

[Mark Coward]

I thought the other slam switch was the one in the tilt ball trough. So that one doesn't count at startup?

[Gott Lieb?]

The switch under the PF is 1 of the 2 tilt switches - not a slam
tilt. It's not a slam tilt on a Sys80 either. Sys80s only have one
slam tilt on the coin door. The slam switches on a Sys1 are the
weighed switch on the coin door and the ball roll tilt.

At the OP, make sure that the wires on the ball roll tilt switch are
installed correctly. The one on the side goes to the frame of the
ball roll tilt, which in turn goes to the tilt pendulum wire. The
other two (one of them being ground) go to the ball roll tilt switch.
If the ground wire is installed on the side where the tilt pendulum
wire should be, the game may not start. If it does, you may see some
funky things happening.

Jim

[Mark Coward]

OK, no matter what it's called, does that switch under the playfield hafta be closed or open?

I will check the wires on the ball roll and pendulum when I get home from school.

So, it's slam switch on the coin door closed, ball roll switch closed, ball in outhole, tilt switch under playfield...?

I am getting hopeful.

[John Robertson]

On 05/21/2013 11:05 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> Hey Greg! I am still stoked even so... The displays come on with zeros, but they don't do the slow strobe thing. They only do that when I manually hold open the slam switch on the door or the one in the tilt ball trough. But now you say there's one that has to be closed under the playfield too? I saw a slam switch there but it looked like it was intentionally sprung open. You're saying that should be closed too? I think I tried that, but I will look again.
>

You now have proper SLAM switch operation.

> Do I need a ball in the outhole on boot?

No.

>
> I checked the lockout wire thing. It was ok. I did disconnect the lockout coil. Is that ok on these machines too?

Yes, the coil is not needed.

>
> The thing is, it worked for about 30 seconds the very first time I turned it on.
>
> hrmmm
>

How long does it take for the displays to light up? If they come on
immediately then there is a problem with wiring or switches grounded.
Perhaps the coin door wiring is damaged. I've found some games have
breaks in the door wiring inside the spiral sleeve where it flexes as
the door opens/closes - so sometimes it is worth while to unwrap and
check that the wires are all good (rare though).

[Mark Coward]

The displays come on immediately. There was a hanging wire on the coin door that comes from one of the coin slot switches. The equivalent wire (same colors) on the other coin switch goes to the test button. IS that where this one should go?

I did have some wire issues in that sleeve. That was why I disconnected the lockout coil; every time I moved that wire bundle that coil would fire. I unsleeved the bundle and separated the wires, but now I think I have to check for continuity too.

thanks

[Gott Lieb?]

If the displays come on immediately, one of the slam switches is open
or one of the coin door switches is being grounded (same thing happens
when a coin lockout trip wire touches a coin switch directly on the
metal). That stray wire you are referring to may be touching the door
frame, which is grounded. Likewise, a wire in the spiral conduit may
have a nick in it, and touching ground. This would explain why it
worked once, but not working now.

To answer your earlier question, tilt under PF should be open. Only
slam switches should be closed.

Does not need ball in outhole, as JRR already answered.

All 5 of the switches related to the coin door, except the slam
switches, share the same switch return line. You should see this same
line daisy-chained to the test button, both coin switches, credit
button, and tilt.

Jim

[Greg]

Mark-

Jim and John are correct. I'll stop posting nonsense now.

Greg

[Mark Coward]

OK...after another couple hours chasing wires and such...here's where I am:
I found a couple of wires in the bundle from the power supply board in the back box that were worn through the insulation and might have been shorting. It was the bundle that heads for the cabinet, the jack on the right side of the board. I checked the wiring on the ball roll switch. the wire on the outside goes straight to a connector that leads up to the backbox, it's not connected to the pendulum. The other two wires on the ball roll switch seem to be connected properly. I tried jumpering from the outside wire on the br switch to the pendulum but there was no change.

When I turn her on now: All 4 scoring displays show all zeros, the ball in play and match display is blank. The game over light is on and the match lamp is on. After about 45 seconds or so, all the scoring displays go blank except #1, which now shows 1 zero. And the small display shows bb on the left and 1 on the right. Now when I trigger the outhole switch the ball count goes up until I get to five and then all the scoring displays go back to all zeros, and on the small display, the left stays at bb and the number on the right goes away.

The coin door switches daisy chain looks solid. I replaced the four diodes in the cabinet that are connected to this.

I am running out of ideas...

[John Robertson]

On 05/22/2013 10:34 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> OK...after another couple hours chasing wires and such...here's where I am:
> I found a couple of wires in the bundle from the power supply board in the back box that were worn through the insulation and might have been shorting. It was the bundle that heads for the cabinet, the jack on the right side of the board. I checked the wiring on the ball roll switch. the wire on the outside goes straight to a connector that leads up to the backbox, it's not connected to the pendulum. The other two wires on the ball roll switch seem to be connected properly. I tried jumpering from the outside wire on the br switch to the pendulum but there was no change.
>
> When I turn her on now: All 4 scoring displays show all zeros, the ball in play and match display is blank. The game over light is on and the match lamp is on. After about 45 seconds or so, all the scoring displays go blank except #1, which now shows 1 zero. And the small display shows bb on the left and 1 on the right. Now when I trigger the outhole switch the ball count goes up until I get to five and then all the scoring displays go back to all zeros, and on the small display, the left stays at bb and the number on the right goes away.
>

In System 1 & 80 games there is supposed to be a delay between power on,
and displays. If the displays come on immediately then you have a switch
that is shorted to ground. You HAVE to find that switch, I know of no
test to help you short of using an ohm-meter on each strobe and return
line relaitve to ground/common in the game.

> The coin door switches daisy chain looks solid. I replaced the four diodes in the cabinet that are connected to this.
>
> I am running out of ideas...
>

[Mark Coward]

I figured as much. Ok. How's this logic? Can I assume that the wires for the two slam switches are correct and not shorted or cut because the displays do the strobe thing when I open the switches? That would narrow the number of wires I hafta trace and check.

And one more thing. I noticed (finally) that the other three boards have nice new ground wires, but the mpu board does not. I will go to Clay and remind myself how to wire it up, but could this, by any chance, be... possibly... causing my problem?


Thanks for all the help on this guys. So very close...

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Do you have a multimeter with diode check, or a logic probe? Keep in
mind that all those switches run to chips, and ultimately a spider chip.
If any of those chips are bad either from a short or just old age,
you'll get the same problem.

Since your symptoms change after it's bee on awhile, personally that
sounds to me like an mpu problem and not just a switch shorted in the
cabinet.

If you have a multimeter or logic probe you can check all this. You can
look on the schematics, track down where the switch wires go, and see if
a input or output is stuck low.


--
RLy...@carolina.rr.com

[Mark Coward]

dang... I was sorta afraid of that. I do have a multimeter with a diode check. Clay shows me how to hook up a logic probe, but then...?

Hey Greg, You wanna lend me that ni-wumph to see if that fixes it? If it do...I'd be happy to buy it for whatever you want

[John Robertson]

On 05/23/2013 8:04 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> I figured as much. Ok. How's this logic? Can I assume that the wires for the two slam switches are correct and not shorted or cut because the displays do the strobe thing when I open the switches? That would narrow the number of wires I hafta trace and check.
>

Yes, that seems like a safe assumption to me.

> And one more thing. I noticed (finally) that the other three boards have nice new ground wires, but the mpu board does not. I will go to Clay and remind myself how to wire it up, but could this, by any chance, be... possibly.... causing my problem?
>

https://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html

If your meter has Logic Probe capabilities you can check if you are
getting the correct STROBE signals (pulsing/flashing rapidly) on the
switch drivers, and then check (with all switches open except for SLAMs)
that all the RETURNS are High (steady).

https://www.flippers.com/gott_system_1.html#work (some tests and how to
bypass the slam switch at the MPU)

If you bypass the SLAM switch by adding the jumper wire on the MPU then
you can unplug the two switch plugs at the MPU (Bottom of MPU, left and
centre plugs) and then turn the game on and see if the displays come on
instantly (without the SLAM rolling). If they do then the problem is in
the MPU, if they do not - and you get the five or so second delay (blank
displays for five or so seconds) followed by the click-click from the
relays - then the problem is in the cabinet wiring, again I suspect a
switch return is shorted to ground.

>
> Thanks for all the help on this guys. So very close...
>

[Mark Coward]

Dang it. It looks like Ron made the call. I did like John said and bypassed the slam switches with the jumper, disconnected the switch connectors, and sure 'nuff the displays still came right on with no slam strobing. When I disconnected the jumper, the strobing started. Looks like mpu issues.

Time to start studying schematics.

How much for that nu-wumph board Greg? E-mail me.

[John Robertson]

We also sell the Ni-Wumpf MPU...

http://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/gottlieb%C2%AE-system-niwumph-p-30

Or search for 'wumpf' if the link doesn't work here:

http://www.flippers.com/catalog/

[Mark Coward]

I ran the logic probe on the j6 connections. I get the continous high from the return like I should, but the strobes for the slam switches, coin door and test switches all stay high instead of strobing hi/lo. All my other volatages test fine. I am NOT getting the 25v col voltage into the switch matrix; I tested that too.

Blown switch matrix spider chip?

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Now you're getting somewhere. The spider chip signals go through other
chips between it and the matrix, check out the schematics and see if you
have a common chip that all your problems run through. You can also
physically follow the traces on your board and see what they run through
before they make it back to the spider chip.

[Mark Coward]

Looks like things run thru z8. I looked on pinrepair.com and did the z8 test. It sez I should be getting pulsing on all legs of z8, but everything is stuck hi. So I can't tell if z8 is bad or u5. All the traces looks solid with no breaks or shorts or battery damage.

It's looking more and more like a ni-wumpf is in my future.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

If you don't have a soldering iron you're stuck, but if you do I'd
definately swap that Z8.

[Mark Coward]

I have an iron... Looks like i'm ordering some 7404 chips. Radio Shack sez no dice.

If that don't fix it... it's probly the u5 huh?

[John Robertson]

On 05/25/2013 1:17 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> I have an iron... Looks like i'm ordering some 7404 chips. Radio Shack sez no dice.
>
> If that don't fix it... it's probly the u5 huh?
>

Mark,

I wish you would keep the thread quoted...

Yes, you probably have a blown Z8, however you can check it with the
diode test on your meter - verify that the output gates are all at least
0.475V or higher relative to ground and Vcc. You do this putting the neg
lead to ground, then touch each output pin with the positive lead - if
no results exchange leads. Any that show a very low voltage drop (under
0.450) are suspect - and they should all be roughly the same value if
the device is good (+/- 0.1V). You may find open outputs when you check
relative to +5 so again exchange the leads to see if you get anything.

Note that OPEN COLLECTOR ICs will not show a voltage drop relative to 5V
unless there are external pullup resistors. Examples of Open Collector
TTL devices are 7406, 7407, 7416, and 7417 - there are others, but you
won't run into them on System 1 games.

[Mark Coward]

Sorry John, I was just cleaning up since it was getting so long. Thanks for the test for z8. Is it pins 1,3,5,9,13 ins, 7 ground and the rest outs?
Thanks again for all the help on this.

[Mark Coward]

I know this sounds dumb, but machine off or on?
With the machine on, and the black lead grounded, in the diode test mode, each pin I touched the red lead to briefly showed 1.198v and then quickly gios to zero and stays.

mark

[Gott Lieb?]

Machine off and red lead to ground.

Jim

[John Robertson]

Machine turned OFF! This is a static test...

John :-#)#

[Mark Coward]

Thanks guys.
OK. With the machine off, but plugged in, red lead to ground and poking the black on each pin on z8 in diode test I get:
pins 1,3,4,5,6,9,10,11 all read .841-.858
pins 2,8,12,13,14 all read about .320
pin 7 is ground and read 0
John, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by your numbers, so how do mine look?

[John Robertson]

Well, looks like the device is shorted to 5V, but first do an ohms check
between pins 2, 8, 12 & 13 against pin 14 (5VDC). Should be well over
200 ohms, but I think yours will be much lower. In which case the 7404
is hooped and may have damaged the spider chip.

The significant pins in the case are 12 & 13 - for both of them to be
shorted to 5V the overvoltage most likely came on that (pin 13) line.

Follow it back to the switches and look for shorts to metal frames, etc.
- somewhere where the 24VDC solenoid power can attack it.

John :-#)#

[Mark Coward]

Are you saying it's still shorted? So if I stick a new board in there, it'll most likely fry that chip too? Or that It was shorted at some point in the past and fried the chip. Is there a way to tell if I have still have an an overvoltage at pin 13?

When I first booted, it mostly worked for about 15-20 seconds. Is that a sign that there is an active short that fried the chip?

I did have several wires in the coim door bundle that were stuck together and might have been shorting. I had the same thing happening in one of the bundles from the powers supply board where it was pretty clear that two wires were shorting together before I separated them.

So i will look for shorts to the frame, but I think I have found all those.

If the spider chip is shot (I replace z8 and it still doesn't work), I need to know if I will blow the next board I put in.

Many, many thanks.

mark

[Mark Coward]

It looks like pin 2 and pin 8 on z8 might have been shorted together before. From the schematic it looks like pin 13 goes to u5 and through a few resistors to -12v.

[Mark Coward]

Oh and yeah.. there was no resistance measure at any of those pins relative to #14.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

You can tell if they're still shorted to solenoid voltage by measuring
the voltage on the lines. I believe you already did that earlier...
basically you shouldn't get over 5 volts on any of the switch lines or
strobes. I think the Solenoid voltage is 25 volts on these System 1's,
can't remember... but if it's shorted you'll have 25 volts on one of the
lines.

You said no resistance, if that means that the pins are shorted to the 5
volts on that chip, then yes the chip is bad.

Here's the thing with the solenoid voltage being shorted, sometimes it
happens with parts that move, for instance I had a Close Encounters last
year, the solenoid voltage was shorted when the rototarget spun around,
the switches would rotate and connect to the ground, which was shorted
to the solenoid.

So on Genie just look under the playfield at the drop target solenoids
and things like that, that move around a bit and might hit a wire as
they move.

It may have very well been your coin door wiring like you said, though.

[Mark Coward]

SO is there any way to tell if the spider chip is blown too? If I put in a new 7404 chip and it tests fine, but she still doesn't boot... is that the only way to know if the spider chip is bad?

I think I'm ordering a pascal board tomorrow...

Doesn't that one prevent chip blowing if I do still happen to have solenoid voltage where i don't want it? (I think i found the short, but...)

So if I somehow had that 25v to ground somewhere, that could blow my switch matrix chips?

You guys are great. Thanks.

[John Robertson]

On 05/25/2013 11:53 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> SO is there any way to tell if the spider chip is blown too? If I put in a new 7404 chip and it tests fine, but she still doesn't boot... is that the only way to know if the spider chip is bad?

Yes, you put a 'scope on the outputs to see if they are changing state.
Otherwise if you use a logic probe on the inputs to the 7404s and you
see pulsing then the spider is probably OK.

>
> I think I'm ordering a pascal board tomorrow...
>
> Doesn't that one prevent chip blowing if I do still happen to have solenoid voltage where i don't want it? (I think i found the short, but...)
>

I have no idea of the input protect on the Pascal board (I suspect it is
done properly), we sell the Ni-Wumpfs and we haven't had any of them die
due to switch input issues...

> So if I somehow had that 25v to ground somewhere, that could blow my switch matrix chips?

It's not shorting the 25V to ground that is the problem, it is shorting
25V to the switch matrix that causes damage...

John :-#)#

>
> You guys are great. Thanks.
>
>
> On Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:15:09 PM UTC-7, Ron Lyons wrote:
>> You can tell if they're still shorted to solenoid voltage by measuring
>>
>> the voltage on the lines. I believe you already did that earlier...
>>
>> basically you shouldn't get over 5 volts on any of the switch lines or
>>
>> strobes. I think the Solenoid voltage is 25 volts on these System 1's,
>>
>> can't remember... but if it's shorted you'll have 25 volts on one of the
>>
>> lines.
>>
>>
>>
>> You said no resistance, if that means that the pins are shorted to the 5
>>
>> volts on that chip, then yes the chip is bad.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's the thing with the solenoid voltage being shorted, sometimes it
>>
>> happens with parts that move, for instance I had a Close Encounters last
>>
>> year, the solenoid voltage was shorted when the rototarget spun around,
>>
>> the switches would rotate and connect to the ground, which was shorted
>>
>> to the solenoid.
>>
>>
>>
>> So on Genie just look under the playfield at the drop target solenoids
>>
>> and things like that, that move around a bit and might hit a wire as
>>
>> they move.
>>
>>
>>
>> It may have very well been your coin door wiring like you said, though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> RLy...@carolina.rr.com
>>
>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>

[Mark Coward]

OK Gentlemen,
I replaced the z8, z9, and z28 chips (Thanks Greg!), and now I get the 5 second delay...
Then it just cycles between all displays showing 0's and a random gibberishy high score. The credit button still doesn't work and the coin slot switches don't add credits.

Dang it... so close...

I don't know what to try/test next...

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Next you need to get out your meter again and see what the voltages are
on each of those switch lines like you did before.

[John Robertson]

On 06/01/2013 1:18 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> OK Gentlemen,
> I replaced the z8, z9, and z28 chips (Thanks Greg!), and now I get the 5 second delay...
> Then it just cycles between all displays showing 0's and a random gibberishy high score. The credit button still doesn't work and the coin slot switches don't add credits.
>
> Dang it... so close...
>
> I don't know what to try/test next...

This is where you consider investing in a Logic Probe. I like the old
Heathkit version and have four of them in our shop. They turn up from
time to time on eBay for a reasonable price.

There are others of course, it's just that I found the Heathkit to be a
nice size, gives reliable indications, and sturdy.

Many digital meters these days have Logic test built in, that will be
fine for this sort of thing (buzzes when lows occur).

Read up on using Logic Probes online, a little searching will do you good!

John :-#)#

[Mark Coward]

Ok John, I'll do my homework tonight ;)
And Ron, I am good on the switch lines.

BUT... I had the just playfield up changing bulbs and such and I replaced all the fuses too. And one of the 5amp ones was blown. SO... now I turn it on:
5 second delay -- The two relays under the playfield click and the lights blink off and on (Yay! that's new!)-- and the coil for the kickout hole at the top of the playfield (pay bonus when lit)fires once (also new behavior--only that coil, only once) -- all displays show zero and we cycle between that and a bogus high score.

Please don't tell me it's a driver board... (I asked you not to tell me that...)

Missed it by THAT much...

Many, many thanks.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

So in other words... the game is now working :)

Personally, I'd go grab some quarters....

[Mark Coward]

WHa? It still won't take credits or start a game. Please don't toy with me...I just spent a hot morning slaving over a stupid TOM trunk, that now finally works after 4 weeks of pain. ;)

I was hoping to press my luck here too...

[Mark Coward]

Oh yeah... I used to get music every few minutes from the sound card... now I don't any more.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

fireball2;2078453 Wrote:
> WHa? It still won't take credits or start a game. Please don't toy with
> me...I just spent a hot morning slaving over a stupid TOM trunk, that
> now finally works after 4 weeks of pain. ;)
>
> I was hoping to press my luck here too...
>
>
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:19:57 PM UTC-7, Ron Lyons wrote:
> > So in other words... the game is now working :)
> >
> >
> >
> > Personally, I'd go grab some quarters....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >

> > RLyons1 (AT) carolina.rr (DOT) com

> >
> > This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

Well you've got it to boot. If it's alternating between a fake high
score and all o's, that's booted sir!

If it won't credit up, you've still got switch issues, though. They're
not stuck, or it wouldn't boot, they're probably not making connection
somewhere. You could check continuity between whatever pin the wiring
goes to on the pcb, all the way back to the switch. You said your coin
door was screwy, if one of those wires is broke of course the mpu would
never see the switch close...

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

fireball2;2078454 Wrote:
> Oh yeah... I used to get music every few minutes from the sound card...
> now I don't any more.
>
>
>

There is a dipswitch on the sound card that will turn the music in
attract off. So did you mess with it or anything?

I left mine on, though, because that was the only time it made that cool
snake charmer music! In the game, it never used it. Very strange.

[John Robertson]

On 06/01/2013 3:25 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> WHa? It still won't take credits or start a game. Please don't toy with me...I just spent a hot morning slaving over a stupid TOM trunk, that now finally works after 4 weeks of pain. ;)
>
> I was hoping to press my luck here too...
>

You haven't got a friend with a System 1 game handy that you can put
your MPU into, do you? There is always a chance that the MPU now works,
but the cabinet wiring/connectors/diodes are causing you problems...

You do know that you can "cheat" the switch matrix by using a diode and
a jumper wire?

So lets say the Self Test switch doesn't work...looking at the
schematics shows it is wired across Stobe 0 and Return 0. Now to 'cheat'
with your diode and wire jumper all you need to do is find the pins on
the edge connector A1-J6 that match those lines, in other words Strobe 0
originates at Z8 pin 2 = A1J6-Pin8 - the non-banded end of the diode
goes here, and the banded end goes to Return 0 which comes back via
A1J6-Pin3 to IC9-Pin1.

If now you get Self Test functionality you have a problem with the
wiring as you have bypassed the game wiring. If you don't get Self Test
operation, check your connections - if you have jammed the wire into
J6's pins, perhaps they are corroded or bent or the solder pads on the
MPU board are corroded/coated/damaged...

To test the coin and start you are keeping Return 0, and you are next
going to Strobe 1 (Coin 1), Strobe 2 (Coin 2), and Strobe 3 (Start(.
These are all on A1J6: Pins 4, 5, and 6 respectively. Coming from IC8
pins 4, 6, and 8 respectively.

Hope this helps a bit...field troubleshooting from way back!

John :-#)#

>
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:19:57 PM UTC-7, Ron Lyons wrote:
>> So in other words... the game is now working :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I'd go grab some quarters....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> RLy...@carolina.rr.com
>>
>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Mark Coward]

While I was poking around for broken wires in the coin door bundle, she went kachunk and kicked a ball out. One pop bumper, one slingshot and just the bottom flippers worked.

I tested flipper power to the upper playfield (I couldn't resist), and then I shut her off. When I turned her back on, I was back to the instant on displays. I haven't tested to see if I again fried those three chips (Luckily Greg sent me more than one of each!) I am not getting any of the slam switch strobing...

doh!

I will try to get back to where I was with her and then try John's test...


I know I keep saying this, but thanks again.

dangdangdang

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

The top flippers get their power from the bottom flippers... and the pop
bumpers energize when the switch is hit, when I had mine and first got
it going, none of that worked either. Believe it or not, the switches
were so dirty the power wouldn't get through.

So when you get it going again, clean the switches for the upper
flippers, and clean and adjust the pops and they'll work fine.

[Mark Coward]

I did blow the chips again somehow. Put the spares in, and I was back to the boot but not starting a game or taking credits stage again.

I got out my diode and jumper wire, and I started doing like John said. First time through, I got no result/change no matter which switch wiring I bypassed.

On the second pass through, while I was jumper/dioded to bypass the test button, she kachunked, kicked out a ball and tilted, and I was back to the fried chips. I don't think they were related incident... I think whatever weirdness there is just happened again... but...?

I have traced every wire that goes to a1j6 from the coin door/cabinet; they are all good now.

Is there any chance a bad drver board could cause the nonstart?

I reallllly hope that pascal board I ordered fixes this or at least makes it easier to troubleshoot.

dagnabbit!

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

Here's the deal. The switches run off of 5 volts DC... if you're
shorting 5volts to it anywhere, it wont' hurt anything. Screwy signals
won't hurt anything.

Since you're getting fried chips, you have, whether you can find it or
not, AC voltage or high DC voltage entering the switch system somewhere.
You have to, there's no other way it would be doing that.

So somewhere you've got 25 volts or whatever for the coils, or the 12
volts for the cpu, or the 6 volts for the lights entering your switch
matrix. It's probably doing it intermittantly which is why you can't
find it easily.

If you put a pascal board in... you're probably going to fry it too by
doing the same thing!

I had a Close Encounters System 1 that was doing the same thing. I had
solenoid voltage shorting to the switches, but it was only doing it on
the rototarget, and only sometimes, and only through the ground, and
blah blah blah. Took me months! to figure out where it was. I put a
new pcb in it, and fried the switch section on it too.

One thing you can do is, put it in attract mode, and LEAVE it in attract
mode. Don't try to start it... and see if it'll stay in attract mode for
a couple hours. Maybe that will help narrow it down... I would also
unwrap that batch of wires on the coin door and go over each wire with a
fine tooth comb and a strong light, look for a nick anywhere.

Also pull the wires up that go through the head, look very closely and
see if anything's kinked anywhere. The switches and the solenoids come
up through seperate looms, so they shouldn't be touching but you've got
to look close, whatever you're looking for is very minor and will be
very hard to find.

I hope you put sockets in on those chips... my advice would be to keep
THAT board in there until you can play a game on it, it's much better to
keep screwing THAT board up than to screw up the pascal.

[Mark Coward]

Thanks Ron... a lot...
I did unwrap the bundle of wires from the coin door, and I did find some with nicks that were probly shorting together intermittently. I have them all separated all the way to the head now.

My question is, could all this be happening at the mpu level? Could my board be shorting things somewhere?

I did put sockets in, that was how I was able to run through two sets of chips so quick. I will get more and try to just leave it for a while when it "boots." But how does that make it any easier to tell what's wrong? Say it just stays in attract and doesn't blow the chips, but still won't start a game or take credits after several hours? Then what might be my issue? Or what if it blows chips (sounds like she's been at a TGIF frat party) after a long/short time in attract mode? Does that mean it's the mpu? Or what?

What if it's a coil wire touching something under the playfield? How could I check for that besides visually?

I thought the pascal had some sort of prevent for blowing the switch matrix chips.

Gawd, I was soooooo close. Now I am worried.

[weezer919 -=-=-=- weezer919]

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[John Robertson]

On 06/02/2013 1:33 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> I did blow the chips again somehow. Put the spares in, and I was back to the boot but not starting a game or taking credits stage again.
>
> I got out my diode and jumper wire, and I started doing like John said. First time through, I got no result/change no matter which switch wiring I bypassed.
>
> On the second pass through, while I was jumper/dioded to bypass the test button, she kachunked, kicked out a ball and tilted, and I was back to the fried chips. I don't think they were related incident... I think whatever weirdness there is just happened again... but...?
>

That was the sound of the circuit blowing your switch matrix. You STILL
HAVE A SHORT TO THE 24VDC line on the switch matrix wiring! I'd check
the outhole kicker wiring, perhaps a wire is pinched under the metal
frame and one tap of the solenoid is touching the frame?

You have probably destroyed the spider chip by now. I doubt it is any
good at this point.

> I have traced every wire that goes to a1j6 from the coin door/cabinet; they are all good now.
>
> Is there any chance a bad drver board could cause the nonstart?

No, this is a damaged MPU caused by a short to the switch matrix wiring
SOMEWHERE in your game.

>
> I reallllly hope that pascal board I ordered fixes this or at least makes it easier to troubleshoot.

No, you will only damage it. You MUST FIND THE SHORT! Use a voltmeter on
each switch matrix line in A1J6 & A1J7 (with both logic boards removed
from the game entirely to protect the MPU & driver!) relative to ground.
I expect one of them shows 24VDC assuming the solenoid fuse is now
reinstalled and the Game Over relay is jammed (as if energized) to power
up the playfield solenoids.

Find that short.

John :-#(#

>
> dagnabbit!
>
>
> On Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:00:39 PM UTC-7, Ron Lyons wrote:
>> The top flippers get their power from the bottom flippers... and the pop
>>
>> bumpers energize when the switch is hit, when I had mine and first got
>>
>> it going, none of that worked either. Believe it or not, the switches
>>
>> were so dirty the power wouldn't get through.
>>
>>
>>
>> So when you get it going again, clean the switches for the upper
>>
>> flippers, and clean and adjust the pops and they'll work fine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> RLy...@carolina.rr.com
>>
>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>

[Mark Coward]

Thanks guys for sticking with me on this... especially John and Ron. True pinball saints you are.

I took out the mpu board, pending new 7404 and 7405 chips (I hope John's wrong for once and that my spider chip still survives. I disconnected the driver board.

I used a piece of rubber hose like for pulling lamps to hold the game over relay closed for solenoid power.

I started checking voltages on each line of the two switch matrix connectors (a1j6 and j7). Zeros or close to it on every line.

I leave her on awhile. Have a snack. Then I test again. This time I fire one of the top pop bumpers while I test j7's lines. Each time the coil fires I get a voltage spike of up to 9 volts. If I hold the switch down and lock the bumper on, I get about two volts on almost every line on j7.

Then I notice again that my upper flippers and the other two pops aren't working. I shut her off and adjust switches and get all the pops, the flippers and the sling working. I test j6 and j7 again, firing all the various coils I can, and this time there are no voltage spikes on any line. I leave her on for an hour, I put a ball in and practice my shots with the flippers to test strength and such. Lower left flipper is a bit mushy, but everything seems strong.

I test voltages on the j6 and j7 lines again, and I get zeros all around. I wiggle wiggle and tug on all the coin door wires and the outhole kicker and switch and everything else I can that's related to the switch matrix. All zeros on the switch lines. I manually reset all the drop targets and I play some more. Test = zeros on all switch lines even while firing all the coils I can.

She's been on about 90 minutes now and I am still getting zeros. I open and close the coin door, I wiggle waggle on everything and I am still getting zeros.

Is this good news?

One more question before nigh nigh. Let's just assume that I find the short that fried the chips. I was sort of at that point awhile ago when the mpu seemed to boot but I couldn't start a game. If the short were fixed, could the non start be an mpu issue? Or do I have two wiring problems going on? The short frying my mpu chips and the open circuit preventing game start? Or could the non start be old mpu related and once I fix the switch matrix short to high voltage and put in my new board, I'll be gold?

Gawd let there be some good news out there for me.

Ron and John, I know you guys are far away from me, but if'n yer ever in California, you hafta call me up and let me take you out for beers. My town was called the happiest place in north america on Orca Windbag's show. Or at least let me make a paypal donation to you for all the help.

Thanks again.

[John Robertson]

On 06/03/2013 9:16 PM, Mark Coward wrote:
> Thanks guys for sticking with me on this... especially John and Ron. True pinball saints you are.
>
> I took out the mpu board, pending new 7404 and 7405 chips (I hope John's wrong for once and that my spider chip still survives. I disconnected the driver board.
>
> I used a piece of rubber hose like for pulling lamps to hold the game over relay closed for solenoid power.
>
> I started checking voltages on each line of the two switch matrix connectors (a1j6 and j7). Zeros or close to it on every line.
>
> I leave her on awhile. Have a snack. Then I test again. This time I fire one of the top pop bumpers while I test j7's lines. Each time the coil fires I get a voltage spike of up to 9 volts. If I hold the switch down and lock the bumper on, I get about two volts on almost every line on j7.
>
> Then I notice again that my upper flippers and the other two pops aren't working. I shut her off and adjust switches and get all the pops, the flippers and the sling working. I test j6 and j7 again, firing all the various coils I can, and this time there are no voltage spikes on any line. I leave her on for an hour, I put a ball in and practice my shots with the flippers to test strength and such. Lower left flipper is a bit mushy, but everything seems strong.
>
> I test voltages on the j6 and j7 lines again, and I get zeros all around. I wiggle wiggle and tug on all the coin door wires and the outhole kicker and switch and everything else I can that's related to the switch matrix. All zeros on the switch lines. I manually reset all the drop targets and I play some more. Test = zeros on all switch lines even while firing all the coils I can.
>
> She's been on about 90 minutes now and I am still getting zeros. I open and close the coin door, I wiggle waggle on everything and I am still getting zeros.
>
> Is this good news?
>
> One more question before nigh nigh. Let's just assume that I find the short that fried the chips. I was sort of at that point awhile ago when the mpu seemed to boot but I couldn't start a game. If the short were fixed, could the non start be an mpu issue? Or do I have two wiring problems going on? The short frying my mpu chips and the open circuit preventing game start? Or could the non start be old mpu related and once I fix the switch matrix short to high voltage and put in my new board, I'll be gold?
>
> Gawd let there be some good news out there for me.
>
> Ron and John, I know you guys are far away from me, but if'n yer ever in California, you hafta call me up and let me take you out for beers. My town was called the happiest place in north america on Orca Windbag's show. Or at least let me make a paypal donation to you for all the help.
>
> Thanks again.
>

All very well, but you also have to check A1-J6 pins...it appears that
something is taking out the coin door switches based on your past
descriptions..

Zeros are good!

John :-#)#

[Mark Coward]

The a1j6 pins have showed zeros all along. If I leave her on and test/wiggle/test every day until my new board and/or chips get here, and I am still getting zeros on everything on j6 and j7, do you think it's safe to put in the new board and try again?

Please say yes.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

I'd rather you put in the new chips (again) and see if you can get it to
not blow those chips. Even if you can't get it to start a game, if it
blows the chips again it'll screw up the pascal.

If the game won't start you've either got wiring problems still (an open
connection) or you've got a chip in the switch section on the mpu that
can't see a closed connection (shorted high? I suppose)

If you can get the game to sit and pur reliably (it looks like you're at
that place now) and the chips haven't been shorted, it's probably
alright to put the new board in.

BTW the new board doesn't have anything impossible to fix like the
spider chip, so if you DO blow it up you'll find all the chips are
available.

[Mark Coward]

O... M... G... SHE WORKS! I have a warped coil sleeve on a pop bumper, making it stick. A buncha switches (especially the rollovers) need adjustment (three or four don't register at all, even manually), the center drop target unit resets at the start of a ball, but doesn't when you knock all the targets down, a whole lot of controlled lamps need replacing, and you get points when you trigger the flippers (see switch adjustment), BUT...

Those ain't nothing but adjusting and tweaking (although the drop target thing is a bit weird)...

SHE WORKS.

I let her sit and fired pops and flippers and such over and over and kept testing the switch returns... 2.5v only when pops fire... did that for two days. Still good: no coil voltage in my switch returns.

Put in the pascal, hooked one connector up at a time (per Clay)... and tested each step...

Finally connected j6 and j7... AND SHE WORKED!

Thank you guys for sticking with me on this one. Today was my last day of work for the summer (i am a middle school teacher), and this was even bigger than the last day of school for me.

John and Ron: You guys are money. Thanks again.

[rly...@carolina.rr.com]

It's cool seeing one come back to life, eh? I think it must have been
those nicked wires on your coin door that you were talking about.

Good news is since you've been so.... 'intimate' with this thing (LOL)
you'll be able to fix it pretty easily in the future.

[thecompu]

On Saturday, June 8, 2013 12:47:47 AM UTC-5, Mark Coward wrote:
> O... M... G... SHE WORKS!

Congrats. I have been reading this thread from the beginning. Great read and lots of good information inside.

[Mark Coward]

I have been adjusting and soldering and playing and etc. and I am down to two issues.
One: None of my ten point switches are working. I replaced the diode, and checked for shorts, but... Since they're all daisy chained, does it take just one broken wire to ruin them all? I figured as much. Sigh.
Two: This is the weird one. The lower pop bumper wasn't scoring any points. Sure enough, the diode for that switch was broken. Replaced. Now it scores points and cycles the bonus multiplier light like it should, but it only scores 200 points, instead of 2000?! wtf?

Other than that, she's pretty beautiful.

Thanks again guys.

Peanut brittle, huh john? hmmm.

mark

[Mark Coward]

OK... Down to one issue. I fixed the 10s switches. Would having one of them closed at boot cause that line in the matrix to not work? Anyway, as I was tracing wires and looking for breaks and shorts, I saw that one of the switch leaves behind one of the drop target banks was bent and stuck closed. Readjusted and...then they all started working again. yesss!

But my lower pop is still awarding 200 instead of 2000?

[Gott Lieb?]

With any Gottlieb Sys1 (and Sys80s are the same), if one of the switches that are in parallel with the same switch on the switch matrix is closed, they are all considered closed. Just think about this for a moment. If you have 8 switches that are 10pt. switches, and they are all designated as sw. 55, the game cannot differentiate between the 1st parallel switch, the last switch or any of the others in between. It treats them all as the same switch, because they have the same switch designation.

In a 5-ball game, the pop bumper scores 200pts., 2000pts. with a 3-ball game.


Jim

[Mark Coward]

Just to close this one out and thank everybody (I've been camping for awhile and away--god forbid--from pinball for a bit.

The pascal board works great. I tackled down the 10pt issue. And Duh, I should have read the instructions about the lower pop.

I installed super flipper coils in the lowermost 2 flippers. Way better. I swapped out the weaker coil they put in the lower pop, and put in the same one as the top pops have. Also way better.

I think she plays better than when she came out of the factory.

Thank you to everyone who helped me out on this one, especially John and Ron!

I think I should now be able to contribute to any Genie thread that comes round. I pretty much know that gal inside and out, so to speak.