Has George Gomez lost his touch?

[Cobra99]

Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco and was looking at his
latest machines.

I think TF was a flop. With the decals applied quickly with the huge
cutouts and overlapping corners. Promises broken and the drop target
mishap. The last software release hyped but didn't do much. The Mutiball
issue that can leave you hanging….

BDK was also a flop. Software update helped. The crane is cool but
that cannot save this game. Bad voice actors, the useless POTD2 MPF,
and the playground teeter-totter

The Sopranos. I only played this a few times but this isn't high on the
most lists. Didn’t make me want to buy the machine.

The only saving grace is LOTR but that was way back in 2003.

So out of his last four games only one was really good and the rest
were warm at best.

I would consider a Borg machine before I bought a Gomez machine sight
unseen again.

Thoughts?


--
Cobra99
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Max Pinball]

I think you are clueless. TF I cannot comment, but regarding the rest
of your post, you are absolutely off the mark.

His games are great on location.

[Lloyd Olson]

I think some of the things you are unhappy with were more with the company
than with George.

And a couple of your "flops" sold well. Maybe not like LOTR, but very good
in this market.

So you getting the next Borg game ? Should be out soon.

LTG :)

"Cobra99" <lancets...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Cobra99...@rrgparchive.com...

>
> Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco and was looking at his
> latest machines.
>
> I think TF was a flop. With the decals applied quickly with the huge
> cutouts and overlapping corners. Promises broken and the drop target
> mishap. The last software release hyped but didn't do much. The Mutiball

> issue that can leave you hanging..

[calvin12]

I don't think Gomez is responsible for crappy decals and such


--
calvin12

[Detroitboy]

All of those clusters happened after Stern hired a "comptroller" to
run the finances of the company. The beancounters took over and there
is no way Gomez had much to say about the final product. Example: do
you really think Gomez would have designed a game with those crummy
pegs to hold up the playfield for service, and with plastic aprons?
And with TF they rushed it to production in an attempt to beat JJP to
the market with his WOZ. They sure screwed themselves on that by not
letting him work on it until he was happy with it.

[chuck]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:44:50 PM UTC-4, Cobra99 wrote:
> Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco

I got a kick out of this sentence. Many of the vocal people on RGP don't represent pinball as a whole. You hear them yelling here and think the whole world feels that way. I'm buying a TF Pro in two weeks because I think it's a really fun pin. I respect a few people's opinions here that don't like it but there's more noise than useful reviews. Many people love BDK. Lots of people Love Sopranos.

I don't think any designer can satisfy everyone every time. And some people hate Stern for sport so what are you going to do ;-)

[yetterben]

I like to think i am one of these people as we talk off rgp. I still
respect Gomez allot. Out of all the designers i think he is very under
appreciated. I dont think TF was a flop. I think TF has been a PR
nightmare for Stern. The process was rushed i think. When i saw rushed i
mean BIG title Biggest in a long time. Hell its
Transmuthafrickingformers. They tried to do to much on one title. Decals
qr codes Full fledged LE. They lost sight of the big picture and shit
got botched. However the base game is good its just not uber awesome
end all of end all titles. Its not lord its not MB. Its still good
though.

I am very outspoken about my Tf experience but i still appreciate the
men who do this. Games are being rushed out the door faster than ever.
Thats ashame. I dont think anybody would care if they cut down to TWO
really solid games a year.

But no i dont think he has lost his touch..He walked into a turd of a
company so to speak gonna take some time before they can pull up there
pants and run again. I think it can be done.....if they dont rush shit.


--
yetterben

[Tom G WI]

TF is still a good game despite some issues with decals. Not Gomez fault.

[Jeff Palmer]

On Apr 10, 4:44 pm, Cobra99 <lancetschrit...@gmail.com> wrote:

Depends who you ask.

My son who is 13 loves LOTR, BDK and TFLE which are all Gomez Games.
In fact he told me he likes all of those games (and Iron Man which of
course is Borg) over TRON LE (which has its own special fan club.)

What I see is that there are a few vocal people who look for every
opportunity to explain why they hate TFLE so much and what is "wrong
with TFLE". I think many see those posts more than posts from those
who enjoy the game.

I maintain that people had this grand hope of what TFLE would/should/
could be-partially from what Stern advertised and partially based on
what the RGP crowd dreamed the game would be, that the game did not
meet those expectations and that is why it gets many bad reviews. The
game is not a be all end all game, but it is not a "flop."

Of note, the much adored LOTR received some serious flak at the
beginning. Many gripes about rejected ring shots, magnet issues, weak
flipper coils, rejected direct shots into Gimli etc. If we look back,
KEF changed a key rule/feature in the code to allow for 1 ball DTR
over 2 ball DTR because there were so many problems with that magnet
setup. A similar argument could be made for the virtual lock
adjustment for Megatron in TFLE which has been a recent complaint.

I think it is fair to say there are a lot of positive aspects to the
Gomez games you mentioned: TFLE, BDK and LOTR, but they also had
problems-all games from all designers do to some extent.

[seymour.shabow]

Sopranos is fun. Give it another try. TF pro is better than LE to play
IMO.

As for losing his touch, I can't say I find his designs mind blowing.
Monster Bash is pretty good (but look at the programmer..... there's
going to be a common thread here about the programmers involved with
Gomez games.....). His earlier stuff don't care for. The best thing
he's ever been involved with is the Tron Video game in 1982, that's just
awesome, followed closely by Spy Hunter.

I'd actually rate his top games as in order as Tron (videogame), LOTR
(Keith software), MB (Lyman software). Software really makes or breaks
a game.....

[skippy church]

seymour.shabow;1920537 Wrote:
> Cobra99 wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I'd actually rate his top games as in order as Tron (videogame),.

Okay, stop. Everyone knows that Gomez stole that game from Kevin Flynn.


--
skippy church

[seymour.shabow]

skippy church wrote:
> seymour.shabow;1920537 Wrote:
>> Cobra99 wrote:[color=blue]
>>
>> I'd actually rate his top games as in order as Tron (videogame),.
>
> Okay, stop. Everyone knows that Gomez stole that game from Kevin Flynn.
>
>

But Kevin Flynn is missing ;)

[SaBbRa CaDaBra]

yeah I wonder about that too. I think the the difference has
something to do with the team effort of the games being built. Most
of those classics have acknowledgements and thank you credits all over
the place! - dmds have thank yous, specials thanks, etc and even in
the outlane artwork there are mentions of contributors. There were
some people at my placee recently who mentioned a name in the outlane
of Congo that turned out to be a pseudo name that represented two
designers who call themselves that when they work together. I think
it was Eddy and I don't know the other person. They were also putting
people's faces and likenesses in the backglass artwork, etc and it
seemed like they were thanking everyone from the management to the
janitors! I think there was a lot of input and team effort back in
the day.
I think it can be accredited to the sum of the contributors over the
individual. The result can be seen in the final product. Even the B
and C titals are fascinating creations as a whole.

[chuck]

On Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:49:08 PM UTC-4, yetterben wrote:

> I like to think i am one of these people

You stated in a reasonable manner what you didn't like and you had a good point. It's the people who say all sterns suck with no valid reasoning why they didn't like a pin. Hell, maybe they didn't even unbox it...

=)

[Asael]

I have traded my LotR with a BDK and didn't thought I would like it
as much as my SM. I thought I could trade it again when it grew old
for me. I have only room for 3 pins. Now I have a AC/DCLE on order and
can't wait till it arives. The plan was that SM and AC/DC would stay
and that I would trade the BDK, but now after 4 month I must say that
the BDK is a very good game. It's goes perfect with the SM. One more
software update and it would be perfect. At the moment I think I stop
trading and all three will stay. Perhaps I now have to make room in my
house for more pins, if I want to add a new one.

I would like to thank STERN for making so good games. I would like to
thank great designers like SR or Gomez for bringing so much fun in my
house. They do a good job there! They could be cheaper and the
software could be better. But I don't understand all this here, the
games are way better then you make them.

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 10, 2:25 pm, chuck <ch...@clhess.com> wrote:
> I got a kick out of this sentence. Many of the vocal people on RGP don't represent pinball as a whole. You hear them yelling here and think the >whole world feels that way. I'm buying a TF Pro in two weeks because I think it's a really fun pin. I respect a few people's opinions here that don't >like it but there's more noise than useful reviews. Many people love BDK. Lots of people Love Sopranos.

You also have people who are disappointed but haven't been vocal
because we were at least hoping for the best and putting the positive
traits of the game over the negative, and hoping the final code polish
would be really sweet. For me - when the code didn't address
fundamental things - well - that was the end of the honeymoon for me.
After all the broken promises, missed opportunities, bad QC....I was
still trying to be positive about the game because they DID do a lot
of things right. I had ~1000 plays and was getting super frustrated
with the gameplay roadblocks due to the lack of multiball progression
save. The lackluster 'final' code update didn't address this, I just
didn't have it in me to play the game anymore....especially since I
now have a MB which is essentially the same layout but way more fun
IMO. So - since I wasn't really enjoying the game anymore - all I
could think about were the broken promises, lack of innovative toys
and features, and the awful QC which caused me to spend SO MUCH TIME
dialing in and fixing my game to get it into perfect playing
condition.

I know someone's gonna say "stop whining about the multiball
progression, play better!" ...that's not the issue. I've never been
to Valinor on LOTR, but it doesn't bother me as there's always lots of
interesting and challenging stuff happening. There's never a
bottleneck where there's literally only ONE thing to do - one thing
which you often fail over and over at.

I mean, I don't want to shit on George - cuz honestly he's the nicest
guy and respect him as an artist....and, I truly appreciate how
excited he was for this project, and I think he was well intentioned.
However, lots of the things he said about the game turned out to be
false...the upper playfield would transform, the custom narrative
would seamlessly match with the original voice actors, there were
going to be time/date sensitive easter eggs, there'd be a hidden
"robot dance party", DMD would have QR codes....and then the stuff
that was in the features list when the LE specs came out - 2nd
spinner, spinning All-Spark cube, animating Megatron with glowing
eyes.... There was SO much stuff that didn't happen. Had I not
heard any of these things and just saw the game as it was, perhaps I
wouldn't have had to suppress all this negativity....but after the new-
game-excitement wore off, all those feelings bubbled to the surface.

And for me - this experience has further ramifications than TF. This
really tested me and how I feel about NIB purchases. I'm fucking
burnt out. I was all ready to get AC/DC as it was another dream
theme...but I just couldn't pull the trigger while feeling this way
about my TF experience. I don't know if I'll pull the trigger on a
NIB Stern for a while. I'll definitely want to hear that people are
getting their games with promises met and QC taken seriously before
diving in again. Honestly, HUO might be the better route if there's a
game I'm intersted in. I can tell you this - the guy who now owns my
TFLE has a better-than-NIB game with the amount of work I did to
perfect that machine. If anything, that makes me happy...he really
enjoys it and appreciates the work I did.

Greg

[Frank Furhter]

GoMeko is management now, question begging to be asked is was he ever good?

[Frank Furhter]

You have come to your senses, slowly, and are not alone. The market for
GaryCo games is shrinking, and the company can't continue making crap
for product without going out of business *eventually*. Lets hope for
the gamer, the enthusiast, the boutique buyer that are all standing
chanting now for something wonderful that a miracle happens this Xmas.

[Mr. 68]

Sorry for your disappointment, Greg but I appreciate your candor and
well written thoughts.

Kim
http://www.WrongCrowdProductions.com/
CARGPB #36

[Scott Frazier]

I disagree. I love TFLE but I wasn't drooling over it beforehand either. I had no decal or other QC problems on mine. I think the truth is that Stern will do as much QC as the market requires. If JJP start stealing market share because of build quality, Stern will respond. I personally don't understand why they aren't licensing classic Williams and Bally titles and reissuing them. Market for used pins is off the charts. I saw a mint TOTAN for 15K today. That's insane.

[Cobra99]

Rare Hero;1920601 Wrote:

This isn't a personal attack on George. I own three machines designed
by him. I am talking about the end product. There might be 100 of
reasons why things worked out the way they did. You don't think he had
a part with the decals? or how about the drop target? what about IH
PF? TRON had the same restraints and didn't have as many issues. Guess
I am asking the hard questions and take all emotions out of it. I'm
glad people enjoy their BDK and Sopranos etc but I am talking about the
overall perception of these games. I just think it's odd that the pro
seems to be better than the LE that costs so much more.

It just soured me and I will be cautious on his next games.

[yetterben]

The game was designed as a pro first....


--
yetterben

[Pinball Life]

Sopranos is a great game. I've owned mine for a year now and I almost
always force to myself to make a "stand back and give your honest
opinion about it" statement at that watermark. If I'm not playing the
game after a year, away it goes.
Sopranos stays. LOTR stays as well.

TBK - never bought it and never even considered it. Love the crane,
but wish that cool toy was on a better game (like as Goblin on SM).
The last code update helped TBK a lot, but I'm still not a convert
(not a hater either though).

I have found TFLE to be very fun, but I don't own it and have only
played it at other peoples' houses. Even though I have put over 50
games on the machine I still can't say I've been far enough into the
game to be able to rate if fairly. Yes, it's a fan layout but I have
no problem with that. GG makes fan layouts, that shouldn't be a
surprise to anyone at this stage of the game. Is it a game I want to
own? I'm on the fence about that one. Rare Hero probably makes the
most articulate argument for "against" and I respect his opinion. For
right now the games are sitting right where I want them to be sitting,
at my friends' houses!

Terry.

[goatdan]

On Apr 10, 3:44 pm, Cobra99 <lancetschrit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BDK was also a flop.  Software update helped.  The crane is cool but
> that cannot save this game.  Bad voice actors, the useless POTD2 MPF,
> and the playground teeter-totter

While I can't speak to the entire topic, I don't know exactly what
George himself would have to do with the bad voice actors.

As for the game itself, I think the crane is the best toy in all of
pinball. Yes, seriously. The BEST toy in ALL of pinball. And for
that alone, I can say no -- George hasn't lost it.

I don't love BDK though -- I liked it more *before* the final code
update, believe it or not. It's a cool game though.

[Aeneas - www.flippers.be]

Op dinsdag 10 april 2012 23:21:23 UTC+2 schreef calvin12 het volgende:

> I don't think Gomez is responsible for crappy decals and such

Also my opinion - not much of the things you say is something he has control off.
And how are you going to think of AC/DC and Steve ??

I still take Gomez' games over Borgs.. even like his work at Stern more than what Lawlor did at Stern (not a fair comparison, I know).

Aeneas.
-- http://www.flippers.be

[frenchy]

You called the thread 'Has Gomez lost his touch', so in -your-
opinion, from when to when do you think he DID have 'the touch'? Just
asking because he is listed as 'Designed by' on IPDB only about 10
times. Not ragging on him for only doing 10 or on any particular
titles, just saying that's how many there were. Would make more sense
to me pointing this lost touch question at a designer with many more
games and in quick succession - SR, Wayne Neyens, Ed Krynski, Lawlor
etc. - where they were assigned as designer for many more titles.
Neyens would be many many many more. : )

[AVP Pinball Division]

"Cobra99" <lancets...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Cobra99...@rrgparchive.com...
>

> Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco and was looking at his
> latest machines.

Well, as a cost-cutting measure, Gary made George build all of the machines
by himself. One at a time. He hand-turned coils. He took each and every
electronic part and soldered it to a board one by one. He made the
harnesses himself. He cut the wood for the cabinets. He printed the
cabinet decals himself. The only adhesive he could afford was a bulk pack
of glue sticks from the local Costco. He printed the translite on a color
laser printer. The glass? He poured sheets of glass himself and tempered
them in an oven in his garage. He used the same oven to melt scrap metal
that he later poured into molds for the legs.

And after all of this Gary made him program the game too. :(

--
Pistol Pete

[hugh]

I couldn't have said it better myself Greg, this is exactly how I feel.
I think personally I am just really disappointed that so much was
promised and so much was not delivered. I feel misled and cheated.
This was my first NIB purchase and most likely my last, it was too big
of a gamble for me.

Hugh


--
hugh

[Frank Furhter]

Pinball Life wrote:
> Sopranos is a great game. I've owned mine for a year now and I almost
> always force to myself to make a "stand back and give your honest
> opinion about it" statement at that watermark. If I'm not playing the
> game after a year, away it goes.
> Sopranos stays. LOTR stays as well.

LOTR is an interesting and fun game to play, but hardly great. Sopranos
is not a great game.

[skippy church]

Frank Furhter.;1921187 Wrote:
>
> LOTR is an interesting and fun game to play, but hardly great.
>

What the fuck are you (whoever you are) talking about?


--
skippy church

[snowdale]

Cobra99;1920462 Wrote:
> Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco and was looking at his
> latest machines.
>

> I think TF was a flop. With the decals applied quickly with the huge
> cutouts and overlapping corners. Promises broken and the drop target
> mishap. The last software release hyped but didn't do much. The Mutiball
> issue that can leave you hanging….
>

> BDK was also a flop. Software update helped. The crane is cool but
> that cannot save this game. Bad voice actors, the useless POTD2 MPF,
> and the playground teeter-totter
>

> The Sopranos. I only played this a few times but this isn't high on the
> most lists. Didn’t make me want to buy the machine.
>
> The only saving grace is LOTR but that was way back in 2003.
>
> So out of his last four games only one was really good and the rest
> were warm at best.
>
> I would consider a Borg machine before I bought a Gomez machine sight
> unseen again.
>
> Thoughts?

"So out of his last four games only one was really good and the rest
were warm at best."

Sais Who.... You???


--
snowdale

[snowdale]

"but it doesn't bother me as there's always lots of
interesting and challenging stuff happening. There's never a
bottleneck where there's literally only ONE thing to do - one thing
which you often fail over and over at."

Explain this interesting and challenging stuff, you mean like repeat
everything you've already done. Try playing TF differently. Instead of
progressing through the game lighting your Modes, try MB only. Get your
super and then modes. I guarantee you'll have the same trouble finishing
your modes as you have with your super jackpots. My point... Its a tough
fucking game.... play better. : )

[yenningComity]

Personally I found Sopranos to be a very lazy design. Is it a good game?
Yeah, but the shot layout is LOTR. Sure the safe was a new toy, but all
in all its very much just lotr.

I have owned both and sopranos is gone because while it is good, the
theme and rules were better on lotr.


--
yenningComity

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 11, 3:58 pm, snowdale <snowd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Explain this interesting and challenging stuff, you mean like repeat
> everything you've already done.

Are you fucking serious? I need to explain why LOTR is so much more
organic and constantly interesting than TF? Have you played LOTR?
You can play the game in a million different ways and there's never a
situation in which you can only do one thing over and over. You're
collecting fellowship, you're collecting souls, playing modes,
destroying the ring, playing 3 main multiballs (which HAVE progression
save!!!!), each shot has different rings to collect - and ring combos,
there are elf gifts, spelling KEEP, Gollum Multiball, Ring Frenzy,
Ring Multiball, There and Back Again, etc etc etc...these things are
always in play so even if you fail at certain objectives, you're never
going to feel frustrated at the "presentation flow".

>Try playing TF  differently. Instead of
> progressing through the game lighting your Modes, try MB only. Get your
> super and then modes.

That's bullshit. I have to play the game in a specific linear fashion
in order to circumvent an easily corrected flaw in the code? For the
record, I have tried that...and it still results in me finishing the
modes and getting stuck on Prime.

>I guarantee you'll have the same trouble finishing
> your modes as you have with your super jackpots.

Nope, I can finish the modes due to progression save.

> My point... Its a tough
> fucking game.... play better. : )

Unfair doesn't always equate to tough, and tough isn't always equal to
fun. The challenge in the game is the physical nature of the
table...keeping the ball in play and not draining. While the ball is
in play, the progression of the modes/events/story should feel organic
and fun. Had the game allowed Multiball progression save, it would be
more fun, hands down. It would still be challenging because it's
still a physical game of pinball...it would still be challenging
because not everyone has the endurance to finish all the modes to get
to the midway point (Sentinel)...it would still be challenging due to
STILL having to finish all the Decepticons AND THEN Cybertron! As it
stands, it ceases being a challenge and just becomes an asshole!
That's how I see it from my skilll level. Perhaps it's a game best
suited for novices or uber-experts. Novices won't ever know the
frustration of the Prime roadblock, since they'll never finish more
than a couple modes anyway....and uber-experts will be able to
complete the absurdly difficult Prime Multiball occasionally. I
consider myself a better-than-average player, and I did complete Prime
a few times...but never once Prime & all the modes to get to
Sentinel....and that's playing over 1000 games. At that point I felt,
"eh what's the point". On the other hand, I've played LOTR 1000's of
times - but still consider it to be a magical experience, regardless
of never getting to Valinor.

Now, on a somewhat different tangent....I probably would have forgiven
this difficulty if lots of other things in the game had been different
(Cullen custom voices, better narrative, more character personality,
animating/transforming toys & features)...but my frustration focused
my concentration on the negative points due to putting me in a
negative mood.

Anyway, just one man's opinion...glad it's still fun for you. :)

BTW - Gomez said it would make sense why you bash Prime as an
Autobot...it still doesn't make sense...lol. "Autobots, this will be
a very dangerous mission" ...OK, so why do I have to hit him in the
nuts if we're buddies? He said Optimus would be training you...so -
why wasn't the dialog written to reflect that? He should say shit
like "Alright, young warrior - show me what you've got!" ...but you've
got random clips from Josh Douche-amel and fake-Prime that don't
really have anything to do with why you're bashing Prime as an
Autobot. I think it would have made more sense for Prime to be the
lock toy and Megatron to be the bash toy...you could explain bashing
Megatron as a Deception as a Starscream mutiny!

Greg

[Frank Furhter]

skippy church wrote:
> Frank Furhter.;1921187 Wrote:
>>
>> LOTR is an interesting and fun game to play, but hardly great.
>>
>
> What the fuck are you (whoever you are) talking about?

Lord of the Rings is a fun game, yet hardly great. Its a pinball game,
and its in discussion for those hard of learning. Now back to the topic
that should be discussed and entertained... Did Gomez ever really have
talent which could be lost?

[John]

Right On Greg, that's why JJP has my money in the bank now. It's
saying something when someone who's a pinhead and played guitar for 20
some years won't touch AC/DC and orders a WOZ. Sorry Stern, empty
promises. If the attitude is you don't owe me anything, no problem
because I don't owe you my support. Can't wait to order JJP games 2
and 3. Stern is done in my gameroom. Don't fix the MB
progression, no problem no more of my cash to you. May as well just
lay it on the line.

I still enjoy TFLE, but I'm not playing it with as much enthusiasm
anymore because the OP MB is silly and lazily implemented.....one
lousy feature ruining what cost me 6k LOL.

May as well release the source and let one of us fix it for crying out
loud.

[yetterben]

Starting to wonder if i should publish the emails i was asked not to
publish......:o


--
yetterben

[yetterben]

I know lonnie is reading this thread. I sold mine to lonnie......all
because of the MB progression.

[snowdale]

Rare Hero;1921262 Wrote:

> On Apr 11, 3:58*pm, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
> > Explain this interesting and challenging stuff, you mean like repeat
> > everything you've already done.
>
> Are you fucking serious? I need to explain why LOTR is so much more
> organic and constantly interesting than TF? Have you played LOTR?
> You can play the game in a million different ways and there's never a
> situation in which you can only do one thing over and over. You're
> collecting fellowship, you're collecting souls, playing modes,
> destroying the ring, playing 3 main multiballs (which HAVE progression
> save!!!!), each shot has different rings to collect - and ring combos,
> there are elf gifts, spelling KEEP, Gollum Multiball, Ring Frenzy,
> Ring Multiball, There and Back Again, etc etc etc...these things are
> always in play so even if you fail at certain objectives, you're never
> going to feel frustrated at the "presentation flow".
>

> >Try playing TF *differently. Instead of

OK. I'm just saying, I get super jackpots all the time. I get super
jackpots more often then I finish all the modes. To pin the problem on
an option to save MB progress is stupid. The problem is poor play.

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 11, 6:45 pm, snowdale <snowd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK. I'm just saying, I get super jackpots all the time. I get super
> jackpots more often then I finish all the modes.

Are you playing Autobot or Decepticon? I guess I should specify that
it's the Autobot Prime Multiball that causes the roadblock...the bugs
in the LE version for Autobot Megatron mode don't help either. I
have no prob finishing both Multiballs in Decepticon mode. I've can't
finish the Decepticon side due to the difficulty of Devastator - but,
that doesn't bother me since it SAVES progression and I know it's
within my reach.

> To pin the problem on
> an option to save MB progress is stupid.

OK, I've put forth a bunch of other things that bugged me.
So....there....you're stupid. :)

>The problem is poor play.

(In my best Chucky voice) - Fuuuuuuck yoooouuu... ;)

Greg

[Chris Bucci]

>
> I still enjoy TFLE, but I'm not playing it with as much enthusiasm
> anymore because the OP MB is silly and lazily implemented.....one
> lousy feature ruining what cost me 6k LOL.

I just wanted to toss my hat into the ring on this issue in case someone
of importance is reading. I also believe lack of MB progression is the
major rule killer on this game. It is mostly a problem in the Optimus
multi-ball which severely hinders progression and throws off the balance
of everything. This roadblock is way too early in the machine's
gameplay to be happening.

I don't need to explain further (Greg and others have said it perfectly)
but I feel the same way. With the vast majority of the people
reviewing, collecting or talking about this game having the SAME
issue...it surprises me nothing was really addressed.

Thanks,
Chris Bucci


-------------


http://www.buccisarcade.com

[RTIV]

Chris,

Well said!
I too figured, with as many people that have voiced their concerns that the game needs MB progression (Specific to OP MB) they would have made that one change.

For me I like the game, (It was your video review as well as this guys videos with his IH mod ( http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tfle-v15-videos-wih-mod ) that pushed me to purchase a NIB (Comes next Thursday)

I also came late to the game, as I purchased based on a few plays (friends machine) and videos, however I knew nothing of Gomez's promises with all that was left out. Work got busy and I was not keeping up on the latest and greatest.....

With that said I have no regrets, and really like the game (From what I have played)as I love the theme, sound, lights and gameplay, however I still wish they would have added that one ruleset to the rom!!!

I am still crossing my fingers and hoping to the pinball gods that it eventually gets in regardless of if the rom is full;) May be they can remove one or two things to add something that could be a game changer.....



S

[alveolus]

I can't speak towards TF or TDK, but I still have great respect for
Gomez. The only possible knock on his designs are repetitious layouts.
Maybe. I love his artful design, fantastic toys, and great fun-factor.
I would love to see what he would do with no restraints ala SR with AC/
DC.

[Glen Peters]

What touch?


--
Glen Peters

[Joey]

Do it. Fuck Stern. Expose their true colors. They made empty promises
and lied to us, so give them a taste of their own medicine. I am done
with them and this is my last stern. So glad jjp is in the mix now.

[Lloyd Olson]

Don't. Call it a day.

LTG :)

[Eskaybee]

You will not be disappointed. TF is awesomeness!!!!! I have a hard time
not getting in at least one game a day and I've owned mine since
release.

As for mb progression, I think it's needed for OP but not megatron. And
it's such a minor change, there's no reason a full rom should hinder
this change, that's a poor excuse. A good programmer can find room.


--
Eskaybee

[Eskaybee]

Rare Hero;1921262 Wrote:
> On Apr 11, 3:58*pm, snowdale <snowd... (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

> wrote:[color=blue]

>
> BTW - Gomez said it would make sense why you bash Prime as an
> Autobot...it still doesn't make sense...lol. "Autobots, this will be
> a very dangerous mission" ...OK, so why do I have to hit him in the
> nuts if we're buddies? He said Optimus would be training you...so -
> why wasn't the dialog written to reflect that? He should say shit
> like "Alright, young warrior - show me what you've got!" ...but you've
> got random clips from Josh Douche-amel and fake-Prime that don't
> really have anything to do with why you're bashing Prime as an
> Autobot. I think it would have made more sense for Prime to be the
> lock toy and Megatron to be the bash toy...you could explain bashing
> Megatron as a Deception as a Starscream mutiny!
>
> Greg

Dude! If they got rid of the bash OP sequence for autobots to start mb,
that could solve a lot of issues. I would also add a 5 second timer to
restart multiball if you make the OP orbit once mb has finished.


--
Eskaybee

[DukeCityPinball]

My experience with Gomez pins is that I always think I'll hate them, then I find myself falling in love instantly. I figured I would hate Corvette, Batman, LOTR, Sopranos and Transformers. They looked to simple and obvious and none of the themes really did much for me. Imagine my surprise at the Rocky Mountain show a few years ago... playing Corvette just to 'check it off my list', and then going back to it again and again. Batman and its big 'coffee can' is now on my shortlist of 'must own' games!

Transformers looked like another cookie cutter pin, but I tried it at the Texas show a few weeks ago and got a big kick out of it! I waited in line three times just to play it a bit more. Gomez is a master of making shots WORK. His use of design just makes the shots FEEL great more than any other designer I can think of. All designers have their own touches (J Pop games feel very organic and lifelike, Steve Ritchie and his flow, etc), and Gomez is no different. He has proven over and over that you can't judge a pin just by looking at it. You've got to play the game to appreciate their hard work!

[snowdale]

Rare Hero;1921399 Wrote:

Ha, Devistator gives you trouble? Things are much clearer now. Prime
super Jackpot is the best super in any Stern IMO. I hope they implement
MB memory so you can experience it.

Lighten up its pinball. The day pinball gets me as upset as some of you
people are I'll quit.

[RTIV]

Werd!

[wbradley]

To the OP: I disagree.

George's sense of smell might not be as sharp as when he was younger,
though. :rolleyes:


--
wbradley

[RotaryRex]

On Apr 12, 6:18 am, DukeCityPinball <callmest...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My experience with Gomez pins is that I always think I'll hate them, then I find myself falling in love instantly.  I figured I would hate Corvette, Batman, LOTR, Sopranos and Transformers.  They looked to simple and obvious and none of the themes really did much for me.  Imagine my surprise at the Rocky Mountain show a few years ago... playing Corvette just to 'check it off my list', and then going back to it again and again.  Batman and its big 'coffee can' is now on my shortlist of 'must own' games!
>
> Transformers looked like another cookie cutter pin, but I tried it at the Texas show a few weeks ago and got a big kick out of it!  I waited in line three times just to play it a bit more.  Gomez is a master of making shots WORK.  His use of design just makes the shots FEEL great more than any other designer I can think of.  All designers have their own touches (J Pop games feel very organic and lifelike, Steve Ritchie and his flow, etc), and Gomez is no different.  He has proven over and over that you can't judge a pin just by looking at it.  You've got to play the game to appreciate their hard work!

I take your point, GG games do have good feeling shots but I'd go out
on a limb and say im pretty sure anyone who has been around pinball
for a good portion of their life could make a fan layout feel good
especially if that was the only layout design they ever made, your
gonna get it to feel right - practice makes perfect.
I'm interested to see if Borgs next pin is in fact him being unleashed
without bean counters, IMO he's made better games than Gomez under
extremely tight and restrictive conditions, IM is one of my favourite
pins and I also enjoy Avatar and then there is TRON need I say more?
TFLE is possibly sterns biggest disappointment and I know it's made
alot of people including myself look else where for future pins, I
won't buy a NIB stern again and I know others who now won't. As for
the reasons why TFLE is such a lacklustre disappointment I don't think
it can be said better than how Greg put it. One thing Greg didn't
mention though is Gomez made TF after being brought back as "VP of
game design" if TFLE Is the standard of quality and best your "VP of
game design" can do it looks worrying for sterns future release.

[skippy church]

I think Borg just got lucky. I mean, look at Ironman. There is no reason
for that game to be as awesome as it is. The playfield sucks. But, for
whatever reason, the game is white knuckle awesomeness.

One game that people aren't bringing up of George's that they should is
JM. That game goes beyond a terrible theme and buggy software and rises
above it all. Most awesome ball lock/jackpot strategy of all time.


--
skippy church

[RTIV]

Love me some jm!

[Frank Furhter]

Promises promises, seems both sides of the fence gave and one reneged?
Fall one, come another.

[yetterben]

I love JM. I honestly and i am sure i will get hammered, like it more
than MB. Game pulls the whole sci-fi thing together. I am honestly
surprised nobody has ever re-themed it for THE MATRIX.


--
yetterben

[Frank Furhter]

RotaryRex wrote:
> On Apr 12, 6:18 am, DukeCityPinball<callmest...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My experience with Gomez pins is that I always think I'll hate them, then I find myself falling in love instantly. I figured I would hate Corvette, Batman, LOTR, Sopranos and Transformers. They looked to simple and obvious and none of the themes really did much for me. Imagine my surprise at the Rocky Mountain show a few years ago... playing Corvette just to 'check it off my list', and then going back to it again and again. Batman and its big 'coffee can' is now on my shortlist of 'must own' games!
>>
>> Transformers looked like another cookie cutter pin, but I tried it at the Texas show a few weeks ago and got a big kick out of it! I waited in line three times just to play it a bit more. Gomez is a master of making shots WORK. His use of design just makes the shots FEEL great more than any other designer I can think of. All designers have their own touches (J Pop games feel very organic and lifelike, Steve Ritchie and his flow, etc), and Gomez is no different. He has proven over and over that you can't judge a pin just by looking at it. You've got to play the game to appreciate their hard work!
>
> I take your point, GG games do have good feeling shots but I'd go out
> on a limb and say im pretty sure anyone who has been around pinball
> for a good portion of their life could make a fan layout feel good
> especially if that was the only layout design they ever made, your
> gonna get it to feel right - practice makes perfect.

One *may* get lucky on occasion, yet practice make permanent, not
perfect. Cookie cutter fan layout is perfect for a repeated theme game
simpleton licensed player market.

[Steven]

On Apr 12, 5:35 pm, yetterben <yetter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I love JM. I honestly and i am sure i will get hammered, like it more
> than MB. Game pulls the whole sci-fi thing together. I am honestly
> surprised nobody has ever re-themed it for THE MATRIX.

Wait and watch! :)

[Frank Furhter]

wbradley wrote:
> To the OP: I disagree.
>
> George's sense of smell might not be as sharp as when he was younger,
> though. :rolleyes:

Implying he's developed brownosis while at GaryCo on this Nth go-a-round?

[yetterben]

One thing that drove me nuts was the right orbit on TF. More often than
not the ball rattled its way up the orbit. Drove me nuts. Ball made it
around the orbit fine but upon entrance to the orbit itself it was a
ping pong fest. My ball guides actually had impact marks from this. Not
trail marks impact marks lol.

The ball traps drove me insane as well. I dont honestly think Tf could
be put somewhere that's "UN"attended. Even on the pro balls go flying
all over under ramps etc. Stern cant use the level your game excuse.
How many huo people you think spend 5 grand on a machine and dont have
it leveled....:confused:

I know Lonnie and George both are keeping tabs on this thread. For Gods
sake just slow down...tell Gary to shove his 4 games a year up his ass
and do 2-3.

People will pay the asking price IF the game is polished more. Little
things at 3.5k are Big problems at 5k+ we all know what dealer cost is.
Anyone blasting 7k is nuts. How many of us regulars pay msrp...i know i
did not. :rolleyes:


It boils down for me and others as well. Shut up about what you want to
put in the game and only tell us what IS going in the game. I have
watched the speeches. Great you are motivated have great ideas. But if
its not gonna be in the game dont make it public. If you dont have QR
codes on lockdown from Hasbro do bring it up. I dont think anybody
really cared about that but still its not good PR. When you tell the
public you bringing A B C D to the party and only bring A B people are
gonna be upset.

Stern is trying hard to get Good P.R out there. They wanna be mainstream
and brought to the front of the market. They need to bring a polished
product or well....be left behind like they where in the 90's. Stern was
spoiled for the better part of 10 years. Now its time to take your place
as the best or be left in the dust to other companies.

Unfortunately i think Sterns approach is...well we had a good run.


--
yetterben

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 12, 5:33 am, snowdale <snowd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ha, Devistator gives you trouble? Things are much clearer now.

OK, now your'e getting into the "Haha, I'm better than you...and if
you only played the game for a few more years, you'll be as good as me
and then you'll enjoy it" snobbery. I don't know how many times I
have to repeat myself. No other game PUNISHES the player by
roadblocking the entire game. For instance - Family Guy - you don't
HAVE To complete the modes to progress to the Mini-Wiz...however, you
do get punished in terms of points. Same with LOTR - you don't have
to finish the modes to continue on to Destroy the Ring and There &
Back Again...you get punished by not getting an Elf gift. There's a
balance to the physical challenge of the machine & the game story/
narrative that can make it work for players of all skill levels. I
get it. You like it the way it is. Clearly I'm not the only one who
doesn't like how it is. An option would have made more people happy.
Isn't that the ultimate goal? More people happy w/ a game = better
word of mouth = more sales. Batman sold more when the code update
improved things. Spidey became an A game when code improved things.

>Prime
> super Jackpot is the best super in any Stern IMO. I hope they implement
> MB memory so you can experience it.

Too little, too late.

> Lighten up its pinball. The day pinball gets me as upset as some of you
> people are I'll quit.

I'm not upset. If I was upset I'd be cursing Stern like some often
do...I've been as absolutely objective as possible and empathetic to
both sides (company/consumer). I merely ceased to enjoy a particular
game, and traded it for a different one. I have an opinion and an
experience to share. Take it or leave it.

Greg

[Eddie]

GG is still great! RFM requires you to beat the modes in order to
progress to Mars.

I like the challenge of having to beat Modes to get to the Wizard
Mode not just obtaining them.

That is what keeps me coming back to a game the fact that I want to
beat it ( I know you never really beat a pin) not just go for High
scores which is a different form of play.

Beating all of the modes in a game and then beating the wizard mode
does not mean you will be the Grand Champion or even get the #1 High
Score but there is satisfaction knowing that you have accomplished all
of the goals in a certain game.

Not wanting to have to beat modes to get to a Wizard mode is like
using cheat codes on Video games ugh how lame.

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 12, 9:50 am, Eddie <streetandtr...@email.com> wrote:
> Not wanting to have to beat modes to get to a Wizard mode is like
> using cheat codes on Video games ugh how lame.

You're missing the point and I'm guessing you haven't played TF
extensively.

Greg

[Eskaybee]

yetterben;1921641 Wrote:
> One thing that drove me nuts was the right orbit on TF. More often than
> not the ball rattled its way up the orbit. Drove me nuts. Ball made it
> around the orbit fine but upon entrance to the orbit itself it was a
> ping pong fest. My ball guides actually had impact marks from this. Not
> trail marks impact marks lol.

> .

I'm curious. Did you resolve this issue? I never had a problem with the
entrance of the right orbit but I did with the exit of the right orbit.
I found that the wire for EB/special was just barely hanging into the
orbit guide. I have had 0 problems since adjusting this wire. I could
easily see this being the same issue you were experiencing.


--
Eskaybee

[yetterben]

Eskaybee;1921709 Wrote:
> I'm curious. Did you resolve this issue? I never had a problem with the
> entrance of the right orbit but I did with the exit of the right orbit.
> I found that the wire for EB/special was just barely hanging into the
> orbit guide. I have had 0 problems since adjusting this wire. I could
> easily see this being the same issue you were experiencing.

NO i never did its not a switch issue. Its almost like the guides are to
close together. I bet if i tweaked the ball guide a 1/16th it would
stop.


--
yetterben

[Eskaybee]

People who fight rare hero on the issue of having to beat a mode to
progress are going to lose the debate when it comes to TF. I have hit
this roadblock in the game, rare hero is absolutely correct. I have hit
SP halfway point mini wizard mode twice since owning it and I have
experienced the bottleneck roadblock effect twice. So theoretically
speaking, I hit this roadblock 50% of the time.

And it does become extremely dumb when it happens; the game gets quiet.
There's no modes to shoot for, SS and IH are pretty pointless to play at
this point because their progression is at the highest setting at this
point. So what do you do?

It would make perfect sense for the code to be written that you must
complete the standard modes and only reach the mb mode to reach the mini
wizard mode of sentinel prime. Then, they could make it where you must
finish mb to get to the final wizard mode of battle for cybertron.
However, you would be creating another bottleneck in the game.

So the ultimate answer which a majority of the owners have been
requesting is adding a mb memory progression just like the standard
modes have. Simple easy fix. Why is it not implemented is the almighty
big question?

[yetterben]

*sigh* because they rate it like RTU and Valinor...there i spilled the
beans...right from there mouths. Come kill me Stern employees.

NO I AM NOT KIDDING.


--
yetterben

[Eskaybee]

yetterben;1921711 Wrote:
> NO i never did its not a switch issue. Its almost like the guides are to
> close together. I bet if i tweaked the ball guide a 1/16th it would
> stop.

You misunderstood. It's not a switch issue. I thought mine was a poorly
designed ball guide also. One day I got fed up with it and was about to
try and force fix it, then I noticed the WIRE for the EB/special light
was just a ants pubic hair into the ball guide. I just had to press on
it and it fixed everything 100%. The ball was barely hitting that wire
causing it to F up. It's hard to see and believe, but have a look at
that wire position and you'll see what I mean.


--
Eskaybee

[MR.G]

yetterben;1921719 Wrote:
> *sigh* because they rate it like RTU and Valinor...there i spilled the
> beans...right from there mouths. Come kill me Stern employees.
>
> NO I AM NOT KIDDING.

What is RTU?


--
MR.G

[Eddie]

TFLE not TF but I suppose they are similar enough.

[Eskaybee]

MR.G;1921726 Wrote:
> What is RTU?

Ya care to elaborate? Are you saying stern feels TF wizard should be as
difficult as valinor?

I understand adding mb progression would make getting to mini wiz mode
and wizard mode easier. But look at SM; battle royal and super hero are
easy to get to. No, you don't get there every game, but it's easily
attainable and that game rocks! Plus it's hard to complete those modes
once they're accessed.

I don't feel SP and BFC should be hard as nails to achieve. It's one of
those games like SM where it should be attainable 1 in 30 games for mini
wiz and 1 in 50 for wizard.


--
Eskaybee

[yetterben]

Nothing more to say. It was explained to me that it was to be as hard or
to be thought of as hard as reaching Valinor and RTU. Right from a dev.
I am not gonna go into nitty details as i said i would not but that's
the jist of it right there. If you cant trust a dev who can you trust
right.

HEy i am with Greg and you on this. My 2 hour phone convo did nothing to
sway anything other than...well thats a secret but it ha nothing to do
with le guys.


--
yetterben

[RTIV]

Rule the Universe from AFM....

[John Jundt]

I would imagine it is Rule The Universe on Attack From Mars.

[Lloyd Olson]

I'll miss you Ben. LTG :(

"yetterben" <yett...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yetterbe...@rrgparchive.com...

[yetterben]

Hey if i smell a bad tan and see a bunch of white haired old fogies i
will get the geritol out. They will leave.

[John]

OK, but RTU is so easy on 5 ball while OP MB is just more torture.
Yetterben can you privately share the note you received from Stern
employess regarding this isse with a fellow owner?

You have to remember, Optimus MB gets you access to a mini wiz, not
''THE" wizard mode.

They could have solved the hole stupid issue very simply as I
suggested before.....put a menu option in place that allow Optimus MB
not to end until all balls drained. That way it still has to be
completed, but for those of us struggling it would be easier to manage
with a single ball in play......

Another thing, if the damn

Someone tell me they didn't have enough room on their 1960's style
memory approach for the option.

Now I"m really upset. Tried to stand behind these guys for too
long.......

[yetterben]

PM sent


--
yetterben

[Eskaybee]

Twilight Zone;1921768 Wrote:
> .
>
> They could have solved the hole stupid issue very simply as I
> suggested before.....put a menu option in place that allow Optimus MB
> not to end until all balls drained. That way it still has to be
> completed, but for those of us struggling it would be easier to manage
> with a single ball in play......

> .

This is a great idea. And only apply it to OP mb, not Megatron. I think
I like this better than mb memory progression.


--
Eskaybee

[frenchy]

<< They need to bring a polished
> product or well....be left behind like they where in the 90's. Stern was
> spoiled for the better part of 10 years. >>

Not a very pertinent comparison is it? Getting left behind a
steamrolling Wms/Bally during the last boom, plus Capcom coming in
from scratch selling high quality AND lower price options along with
Gottlieb still hanging on for a while longer thanks to the boom...
VS. one or two upstart companies who haven't yet got any games to
speak of on location or in owner's homes? It's still essentially
Stern out there alone on the field stumbling along by themselves with
a new few runners on the sidelines and everybody waiting to see how
they are going to do once they get on the track. And we can all hear
the bulldozers approaching to finally tear the whole damn decrepit
stadium to the ground.

[Jeff Palmer]

I'd feel Cybertron will take at least as much work as Valinor, maybe
more.

It is a grind to reach Valinor-you cannot brute force your way to it
even with multiball progression. Once you have everything ready to go
and are on the DTR before Valinor, if you fail, then back to square
one, play all the multiballs etc. However, there are A LOT more extra
balls available in LOTR on factory settings.

I feel Cybertron and Valinor are way harder than RTU. Here are some
of my stats on my personal pins: I checked my audits, so not every
single game is mine.

TFLE In about 700 games, I have never seen Cybertron. I have only
played Sentinel Prime (SP) 4 times, and won it ONCE. Nobody has
reached SP or Cybertron on my TFLE game.

LOTR: In about 900 games I have reached Valinor 4-5 times. Nobody has
reached Valinor on my LOTR game but me.

AFM: In about 1800 games there are 36 RTU. I have 28 re-elections, so
at least that many are mine :) A lot has to do with game setup, tilt
etc. (I prefer factory settings or harder and tight tilts.)

Anyway, I think most people with experience on LOTR and AFM would
easily say RTU is much easier. Those games have been around for
years, so many have probably played them. Anybody that has time on
TFLE vs AFM would probably agree Cybertron is a harder goal.

For me-the jury is still out on Cybertron vs. Valinor, but my gut
instinct based on play is Cybertron is harder to reach. Progression
aside there are only 2 extra balls available on factory.

But as I have mentioned, there are not many people posting about
Sentinel Prime and Cybertron. They are HARD TO REACH.

[Chaz]

He is no Steve Kordek..
Chaz.

[Sean Casey]

Companies have checks and balances during the development cycle that
include both development and finance(and hopefully manufacturing and
service). Isn't Gomez the VP of Game Development at Stern? If so, he
has plenty of say, unless he sells out to the bean counters. By the
way, I am a bean counter by education and trade and have been involved
in these discussion for lots of years.

Now I am not saying he has lost his touch, but I would question how this
product was released with the flaws it had while he was not only the
driver of the bus, but the owner of it too. Kudos to Stern(and others)
for making this playable and enjoyable, but you only have one chance to
make a first impression. The ability to update game code via USB is
both a positive and a negative. If companies use this tool as a way to
release product early and beta test product to get feedback without any
negative consequences, they have another thing coming.

Sean

On 4/10/2012 2:29 PM, Detroitboy wrote:
> On Apr 10, 4:44 pm, Cobra99<lancetschrit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Was thinking about this since the TF fiasco and was looking at his
>> latest machines.
>>
>> I think TF was a flop. With the decals applied quickly with the huge
>> cutouts and overlapping corners. Promises broken and the drop target
>> mishap. The last software release hyped but didn't do much. The Mutiball
>> issue that can leave you hanging….
>>
>> BDK was also a flop. Software update helped. The crane is cool but
>> that cannot save this game. Bad voice actors, the useless POTD2 MPF,
>> and the playground teeter-totter
>>
>> The Sopranos. I only played this a few times but this isn't high on the
>> most lists. Didn’t make me want to buy the machine.
>>
>> The only saving grace is LOTR but that was way back in 2003.
>>
>> So out of his last four games only one was really good and the rest
>> were warm at best.
>>
>> I would consider a Borg machine before I bought a Gomez machine sight
>> unseen again.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> Cobra99

>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>

> All of those clusters happened after Stern hired a "comptroller" to
> run the finances of the company. The beancounters took over and there
> is no way Gomez had much to say about the final product. Example: do
> you really think Gomez would have designed a game with those crummy
> pegs to hold up the playfield for service, and with plastic aprons?
> And with TF they rushed it to production in an attempt to beat JJP to
> the market with his WOZ. They sure screwed themselves on that by not
> letting him work on it until he was happy with it.

--
Sean Casey
Easily Amused Pinball
www.eapinball.com
408/888-0805

[llabrevlis]

FWIW, I played the TFLE at The PHOF on Wednesday, and left a credit on
it after one game, just couldn't bring myself to play a second game on
it!! Simply not a fun game to play, end of story, and that's about
the worst thing you can say about a pinball IMO.

Dale

[Ray Ayala]

llabrevlis;1922055 Wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, I played the TFLE at The PHOF on Wednesday, and left a credit on
> it after one game, just couldn't bring myself to play a second game on
> it!! Simply not a fun game to play, end of story, and that's about
> the worst thing you can say about a pinball IMO.
>
> Dale

Did you move over and play MM? :p


--
Ray Ayala

[RotaryRex]

On Apr 12, 5:20 pm, yetterben <yetter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The ball traps drove me insane as well. I dont honestly think Tf could
> be put somewhere that's "UN"attended. Even on the pro balls go flying
> all over under ramps etc.  Stern cant use the level your game excuse.
> How many huo people you think spend 5 grand on a machine and dont have
> it leveled....:confused:
>
> I know Lonnie and George both are keeping tabs on this thread. For Gods
> sake just slow down...tell Gary to shove his 4 games a year up his ass
> and do 2-3.

I'm surprised George hasn't posted here and said guys you know what I
wanted to do this and this I really did but this got in the way of
this and this is the reason for the IH playfield being so poor, was
always the impression I got of George was if he had gone for something
and it didn't plan out he's a stand up guy and would have said I tried
but it just didn't plan out. Instead we got a ton of promises and
pretty much none delivered on leaving TF extremely underwhelming and
sterns biggest disappointment IMO. Poorly designed playfield mechs
and software that's about as fun as IJ4.

> People will pay the asking price IF the game is polished more. Little
> things at 3.5k are Big problems at 5k+ we all know what dealer cost is.
> Anyone blasting 7k is nuts. How many of us regulars pay msrp...i know i
> did not.  :rolleyes:

I know myself and alot of others won't buy NIB sterns again without
seeing and playing the final product first, when a game made by a
company's "VP of game design" and it turns out as poorly as TF there
is definatley reason to be cautious in the future.

> Stern is trying hard to get Good P.R out there. They wanna be mainstream
> and brought to the front of the market. They need to bring a polished

> product or well....be left behind like they where in the 90's. Stern was

> spoiled for the better part of 10 years. Now its time to take your place
> as the best or be left in the dust to other companies.
>
> Unfortunately i think Sterns approach is...well we had a good run.
>
> --
> yetterben

> This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com

Simple solution get rid of the idiot running Facebook and supposedly
marketing/PR guys clueless, if they put someone in post that really
communicated with the pinball community it would improve there
marketing and PR 10 fold, it's worked wonders for JJP and newer guys
like Skit-B who communicate regularly with the community - target
market. All we get from stern is stupid and pointless crap up on
Facebook, there is more interesting info from stern leaked by
insiders than there is supplied by stern. Clueless.

[Keith P. Johnson]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:30:39 -0400, yetterben <yett...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>*sigh* because they rate it like RTU and Valinor...there i spilled the
>beans...right from there mouths. Come kill me Stern employees.

That's "Not Understanding Game Design 101" right there.

Neither AFM nor LOTR dry up at any point on your way to their wizard
modes. Well, other than saucers on AFM, but there's other stuff to
do.

LOTR's multiballs are hard on purpose, but that's why progress was
built into them.

keith
--
Further fora you can reach me:
twitter: @pinballkeefer
EFNet: #pinball (keefer)
Google+: https://plus.google.com/115726305093739202394

[yetterben]

Keith P. Johnson;1922190 Wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:30:39 -0400, yetterben <yetterben (AT) yahoo
> (DOT) com>

Your old boss does not see it that way. Thank god you have a NEW boss ;)

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 13, 5:13 am, RotaryRex <jon.mar...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>Poorly designed playfield mechs
> and software that's about as fun as IJ4.

OK, I gotta stop ya there...it's so much more fun than IJ4. Even with
all that went down....I put about 1000 games on TF(LE) ...last time I
played IJ4 at the arcade (a few months ago) I was so bored I didn't
even want to finish. My GIRLFRIEND was bored...and she appreciates an
easier game....

> Simple solution get rid of the idiot running Facebook and supposedly
> marketing/PR guys clueless, if they put someone in post that really
> communicated with the pinball community it would improve there
> marketing and PR 10 fold, it's worked wonders for JJP and newer guys
> like Skit-B who communicate regularly with the community - target
> market.  All we get from stern is stupid and pointless crap up on
> Facebook, there is more interesting info from stern leaked by
> insiders  than there is supplied by stern. Clueless.

Yeah, I really don't know why they're afraid of open communication &
transparency. There's a difference between communicating in a helpful
way & violating NDAs and trade secrets....sure there are some crazies
in this hobby - but most of our critiques are CONSTRUCTIVE. Stern,
don't feel like you always have to be on the defense. We bitch
because we care. We care about pinball, we care about fun games, we
care about the licenses and that their potential is maximized not only
for the pinball fans, but the NON-pinball fans who might buy a machine
due to license and then BECOME pinball fans.

Greg

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 13, 8:03 am, Keith P. Johnson <pin-wiz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> That's "Not Understanding Game Design 101" right there.

Validated. :)

> Neither AFM nor LOTR dry up at any point on your way to their wizard
> modes.  Well, other than saucers on AFM, but there's other stuff to
> do.

"Dry up" ...that's the perfect term for the issue here. I can't think
of any game that I've ever experienced that on...anyone?

> LOTR's multiballs are hard on purpose, but that's why progress was
> built into them.

Keith, let me ask...when you're planning the rules for a game like
LOTR - do you have a sense of what's organic while you're plotting it
out - or is it the result of trial and error? For instance, did you
know right away you wanted progression in the multiballs - or did you
play a few games, say "that's way too hard...oh - what if you start
again and continue where you left off!" Had any game done that
before LOTR? I can't think of any...not only was it a genius move in
terms of making the game "feel" good, but it even contextually felt
"right" - an opportunity to continue quests within the game.

Gaddamn I'm looking forward to WOZ.

Greg

[Rompen]

I've heard both Gomez and Ritchie imply in one way or another that
they are under constraints at Stern which have impeded their ability
to put out the game they'd like. Gary Stern appears to be a universal
scapegoat for why games aren't as beloved as their designers hoped.
Have any designers ever come out and said, "I could have done better.
It was my fault." or "Screw you people, that's a great design and
you're crazy." ??

I think it's all too easy to blame Stern's cost-cutting for a lesser-
quality game. I still would like to believe that with the right
design and software, even a cheap game can be lots of fun to play and
have depth.

One thing that has always popped up in my mind when I think about the
pinball industry and its potential is that, basically, it's been a
private club. The people who ended up designing games rose from a
tight hierarchy, and in many cases it's not like pinball was "in their
blood" or that's what they always wanted to do. They were just in the
right place at the right time and found a job. Sometimes they did
pinball, other times video games or gaming and redemption devices...
whatever needed to be done. So I don't know if our industry has ever
really had a designer who was "all that and a bag of chips" when it
came passion, innovation and squeezing the most potential out of a
table or theme.

Ironically though, I think P2K came the closest to being an amazing
platform with the most potential. I also think Keith's work on games
like TSPP set high standards that 10 years later most manufacturers
still don't recognize. I still think there are pinball games that
could be made that truly could turn the industry around and make it
popular again, but I don't see any of the current designers or
manufacturers on that track. I don't see people designing with the
kind of innovation exhibited in the 50s-80s. I see people doing
"retro pinball" and trying to get a piece of the market of old
enthusiasts' disposable income.

I look at the next year, maybe two, as another "make it or break it"
point in pinball. It's like the end times at Williams all over
again. The players need to fight for their lives, even JJP, if they
want to do anything more than play a few good gigs on their last world
tour.

[Greg Davis]

Here's my take: I am now finished with Stern Pinball. I love my TRON LE, but even it needs code work. What Greg described as a "bottleneck" in the TFLE code is dead-nuts accurate. It's a fun game, it's a great-LOOKING game, and it's going to be a hit with kids and guests. But a keeper for an enthusiast it is NOT. And for the money they extracted from me, the second LE I will have to sell at a huge loss, they should not have broken all the promises they broke. George Gomez is responsible for many of those broken promises. Greg listed them nicely.

BDK was a turd from the get-go--but a good-looking one. The code update actually imbalanced the scoring, IMO. LoTR was brilliant. His only good game. So yes, George has lost his touch. And my trust.

[Rare Hero]

On Apr 13, 8:34 am, Rompen <rompe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've heard both Gomez and Ritchie imply in one way or another that
> they are under constraints at Stern which have impeded their ability
> to put out the game they'd like.  Gary Stern appears to be a universal
> scapegoat for why games aren't as beloved as their designers hoped.

Yet - their best games (Spidey, LOTR) managed to get produced during
the "Gary's Oppression" years....along with other desirable games like
TSPP, FGY, POTC, etc. I could be wrong, but it seems like Gary's kind
of in the background now.

Greg

[Keith P. Johnson]

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:33:33 -0700 (PDT), Rare Hero
<rareh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Dry up" ...that's the perfect term for the issue here. I can't think
>of any game that I've ever experienced that on...anyone?

Austin Powers does for modes you win, but again at least progress is
generally saved.

>Keith, let me ask...when you're planning the rules for a game like
>LOTR - do you have a sense of what's organic while you're plotting it
>out - or is it the result of trial and error? For instance, did you
>know right away you wanted progression in the multiballs - or did you
>play a few games, say "that's way too hard...oh - what if you start
>again and continue where you left off!" Had any game done that
>before LOTR? I can't think of any...not only was it a genius move in
>terms of making the game "feel" good, but it even contextually felt
>"right" - an opportunity to continue quests within the game.

WCS and Jackbot do this and were large influences in my design choices
there. I knew I wanted an epic feel, but knew that I only had 6
months to get the game done, so it was a deliberate choice to make it
harder and continue from the beginning. My only regret is that ROTK
might be slightly too hard, but there's also a point where it gets
easier to start it when you've built up the drop-in soul bonus.

When you've played a lot of pinball as I have (and is one of the
reasons I love coming to shows like MPE and playing games I rarely get
to see/play), you just get a knack of how things will play out in your
head before you write one line of code. I'm relatively certain that
every game I was lead on, I had the rules done just from the playfield
drawing, before any whitewood was built. There's only one rule that
I've ever written that got changed significantly from its start, and
that was Chicken Fight. But, it can also be argued that's not
pinball, so that's my excuse. ;)

>Gaddamn I'm looking forward to WOZ.

Thanks!

[Frank Furhter]

He is most definitely in the background, heading to retirement, and
effectively a talking head for Stern and the VC folks brought in to keep
the company and money flowing (to the man himself, and the cash cows
that saved it.)

[Frank Furhter]

RotaryRex wrote:
> On Apr 12, 5:20 pm, yetterben<yetter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The ball traps drove me insane as well. I dont honestly think Tf could
>> be put somewhere that's "UN"attended. Even on the pro balls go flying
>> all over under ramps etc. Stern cant use the level your game excuse.
>> How many huo people you think spend 5 grand on a machine and dont have
>> it leveled....:confused:
>>
>> I know Lonnie and George both are keeping tabs on this thread. For Gods
>> sake just slow down...tell Gary to shove his 4 games a year up his ass
>> and do 2-3.

Its not up to Gary, understand he's a talking head at Stern now.

> I'm surprised George hasn't posted here and said guys you know what I
> wanted to do this and this I really did but this got in the way of
> this and this is the reason for the IH playfield being so poor, was
> always the impression I got of George was if he had gone for something
> and it didn't plan out he's a stand up guy and would have said I tried
> but it just didn't plan out. Instead we got a ton of promises and
> pretty much none delivered on leaving TF extremely underwhelming and
> sterns biggest disappointment IMO. Poorly designed playfield mechs
> and software that's about as fun as IJ4.
>
>> People will pay the asking price IF the game is polished more. Little
>> things at 3.5k are Big problems at 5k+ we all know what dealer cost is.
>> Anyone blasting 7k is nuts. How many of us regulars pay msrp...i know i
>> did not. :rolleyes:

No they won't, and watch the sales numbers plummet as a result.
This pricing uptick is a last ditch effort to grab what is left in
the market that is vanishing and pocket it for investor returns on
initial VC brought a while back. Typical small investor desperation
play. The company, staff and product is there's to do what they see
fit, what are the alternatives for the staff/GS? Buy it back when it
crashes maybe, otherwise they don't own/control it and job prospects in
pinball are slim to none. They are tools of the masters in power.

> I know myself and alot of others won't buy NIB sterns again without
> seeing and playing the final product first, when a game made by a
> company's "VP of game design" and it turns out as poorly as TF there
> is definatley reason to be cautious in the future.
>
>> Stern is trying hard to get Good P.R out there. They wanna be mainstream
>> and brought to the front of the market. They need to bring a polished
>> product or well....be left behind like they where in the 90's. Stern was
>> spoiled for the better part of 10 years. Now its time to take your place
>> as the best or be left in the dust to other companies.
>>
>> Unfortunately i think Sterns approach is...well we had a good run.
>>
>> --
>> yetterben
>> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>
> Simple solution get rid of the idiot running Facebook and supposedly
> marketing/PR guys clueless, if they put someone in post that really
> communicated with the pinball community it would improve there
> marketing and PR 10 fold, it's worked wonders for JJP and newer guys
> like Skit-B who communicate regularly with the community - target
> market. All we get from stern is stupid and pointless crap up on
> Facebook, there is more interesting info from stern leaked by
> insiders than there is supplied by stern. Clueless.

Get rid of the guys with the purse strings, and you close the company
before another model rolls off the assembly line.

[Frank Furhter]

Rare Hero wrote:
> On Apr 13, 5:13 am, RotaryRex<jon.mar...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>> Poorly designed playfield mechs
>> and software that's about as fun as IJ4.
>
> OK, I gotta stop ya there...it's so much more fun than IJ4. Even with
> all that went down....I put about 1000 games on TF(LE) ...last time I
> played IJ4 at the arcade (a few months ago) I was so bored I didn't
> even want to finish. My GIRLFRIEND was bored...and she appreciates an
> easier game....

TF LE is a boring game.

>> Simple solution get rid of the idiot running Facebook and supposedly
>> marketing/PR guys clueless, if they put someone in post that really
>> communicated with the pinball community it would improve there
>> marketing and PR 10 fold, it's worked wonders for JJP and newer guys
>> like Skit-B who communicate regularly with the community - target
>> market. All we get from stern is stupid and pointless crap up on
>> Facebook, there is more interesting info from stern leaked by
>> insiders than there is supplied by stern. Clueless.
>
> Yeah, I really don't know why they're afraid of open communication&
> transparency. There's a difference between communicating in a helpful

> way& violating NDAs and trade secrets....sure there are some crazies

> in this hobby - but most of our critiques are CONSTRUCTIVE. Stern,
> don't feel like you always have to be on the defense. We bitch
> because we care. We care about pinball, we care about fun games, we
> care about the licenses and that their potential is maximized not only
> for the pinball fans, but the NON-pinball fans who might buy a machine
> due to license and then BECOME pinball fans.

They are not going to develop a game for *maybe one day* pinball
markets, they are going to sell what they can to the schleps that keep
lining up and putting down deposits and full payments on machines proven
to sell to these same schleps. ROI at this point is not a return on
speculation, but proven markets (which are dwindling at increasing
prices, much lower quality [if any], and marketing/trips/shows which
seem to do a bit to keep the interest levels from the sumps.)

>
> Greg
>

[Mike Gervasi]

On Apr 13, 11:34 am, Rompen <rompe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have any designers ever come out and said, "I could have done better.
> It was my fault." or "Screw you people, that's a great design and
> you're crazy."  ??

Yes. JPop has for Ep1