My Take: Classic Bally Linear Flippers
Terrapin Mark
and in very nice condition. Fine folks (knowing I am a classic stern
nut) like Bill Morrrison and Scott Charles said to get rid of the
linear flipper mechs.
Playing the game for a few weeks I thought the game played pretty
good. I still kept hearing (and reading on rgp) that the linear
flippers should be replaced. I order the parts from PBR and still
remained skeptical. The game plays great and .... if it aint broke!!
I decided to change them out this evening. Very simple and
straightforward and what a nice difference the non linear flippers
mechs make. Crisp and Fast.
There is a difference.
Mark Salas
CARGPB 30
p.s. if you order the parts from PBR, make sure you order the springs
and the codder pins with the links. You will need the left and right
pawl assembly, springs, and codder pins.
Pat
Can you explain a bit what games (years preferrably) used the linear,
and which games (years preferrably) used the non-linear?
Also, what exactly do you mean by linear and non-linear?
Inquiring minds want to know!!
-Pat
Chris Hibler
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Gott Lieb?
used linear flippers. I know Truck Stop used half and half, (half
were linear and the other half were WMS Sys11 style), but I'm not
certain if Rolling Stones was the first - http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2010&picno=32914&zoom=1.
I can't recall if Space Invaders used them, but I don't think so. All
Bally games prior to the 1980's used the "traditional" style of
flipper crank and plunger.
Linear flippers were a design where the flipper plunger did not use a
link. There was a notch in the flipper plunger, and a nylon tip from
the flipper pawl / crank rode in this notch. It's common for the
nylon tip on the pawl to wear more prematurely, which causes the
flippers to become sluggish or weak. I believe they were dubbed
linear, because the plunger does not have a pivot point, and moves
unlike an engine piston. They just move in and out. Traditional
style plungers and links wear, but not nearly at the accelerated rate
of a linear flipper.
Jim
seymour.shabow
Told ya. I wasn't convinced originally either. (It still didn't make
centaur any more fun to play....)
You'd have noticed the linears wearing quickly, and unevenly, in home
usage. All my remaining linear machines (mystic and black pyramid) the
flippers have worn unevenly, and the black pyramid is ridiculous how far
up the angle is that the flipper 'flips'.
I have to order the parts to do the swap I have the cranks coming
already; you don't really need to get the cotter pins, you can use
e-clips there (either the cotter pins or the eclips are available at
every hardware store)
Thank Duncan Brown for the original idea.
-scott CARGPB#29
frenchy
this is only supposed to be good for a short time, even in home use?
I just opened mine up and noticed that I hadn't rebuilt the top
flipper, and yeah that nylon piece in the notch has a TON of slop and
play. (I have a new crank, just forgot to replace that one.) But the
two lower flippers cranks are still tight as a drum there after
several months, I mean ZERO play in the cranks. If there isn't some
basic play difference in the two types of units, I'd rather just keep
an eye on these parts, and if needed I can replace the cranks again.
What is the cost of retrofitting in the other mechs, and what parts
are involved?
greatw...@hotmail.com
I think its all personal taste. Many pins of that era with serious
play I got working & sold. Never noticed any real difference between
my experiences playing when new (my youth) or 20 - 25 years later. I
do use Steve Young's rebuild kits when the old links (pre linear) have
serious wear. On the linear ones I recycle the old ones if not totally
beat & worn out.
seymour-shabow
You reuse the baseplate. You just need to get the cranks, plungers &
links, spring, and a hairpin (not cotter as Mark and I were posting).
The play comes in at the pivot point, you will eventually get a flat
spot on the nylon. The older style links wear better and last longer,
and the lighter mass of the parts means better flip performance. It
probably costs about the same to do it as it would to rebuild the
linears.
All I have to go by is the games I have that receive about the same
amount of play, the linear flipper ones have fared far worse than the
older style ones. The older style ones are still flipping strong, and
more importantly, do not have a much longer stroke (due to the
flattened nylon piece) which causes the flipper to cock up at a crazy
angle.
It's not possible to have zero play in the crank's nylon/plunger part
- has to be a little space there for it to rotate, and not impair the
nylon rotational movement within the plunger. When new, they are
fine. When worn, they suck really, really bad. The issue I have
(mainly) is that I wouldn't expect a full rebuild on a flipper needed
after 2000 or so games (this is a black pyramid we're talking about
here, and the total # of games might even be less) - I'd expect (and
have gotten) many more plays out of the earlier style parts.
-scott CARGPB#29
Dr. Dave
from PBR to do ALL of my Bally games that had linear flippers. Put
all of them back to the much better style of fiber link/crank
assemblies. The number one reason I did it is the "FEEL" is so much
better. The older style has less mass to move and thus creates a more
"crisper" flipper flip.
I just sold off all of my linear flipper stock I had. No need for
them anymore. Linear flippers were a bad idea then and even worse now
years later.
DR
PinMan
Centaur, to do this conversion? (I have Fathom, Xenon and Medusa I'd
probably do to... but Paragon was before this design right?)
> > -scott CARGPB#29- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Terrapin Mark
> Can anyone supply all the part numbers needed to order, for say a
> Centaur, to do this conversion? (I have Fathom, Xenon and Medusa I'd
> probably do to... but Paragon was before this design right?)
Classic Bally (to replace) Pinball Resource Parts List (thanks to
Scott Charles who gave me the parts numbers)
Left Pawls: A-3711-3
Right Pawls: A-3711-2
Springs: SP-200-212
Plungers & Link: A-3714-3
Links Alone: P-1973-408
Roll Pins Alone: P-1637-59
I believe these are accurate numbers. If you give the wrong number and
Steve yells at you I apologize :)
Mark Salas
CARGPB 30
Dr. Dave
Left Pawls: A-3711-3
Right Pawls: A-3711-2
Springs: SP-200-212
Plungers & Link: A-3714-3
Paragon doesn't have linear flips so your fine there.
DR
sk8ball
> flattened nylon piece) which causes the flipper to cock up at a crazy
> angle.
hence Skateball's bad rep for the inlane rape.
Brian Bannon
Mark, you won't regret the change over to the old style parts. I have
been changing over my Bally games to this style since 2005 after an
Expo conversation with Duncan Brown. No issues since.
If you read some of Roger Sharpes' old Play Meter reviews from 1981,
he talks about sluggish flipper play on certain Bally games. Also,
Frank Seminsky talks about them in his column as well in the same
magazine. He references that the springs were too weak, the nylon
part wears prematurely, and the coil stop screws shear off as well.
If you are having any trouble with your baseplate holes being blown
out, remember that they are reversible and all you have to do is
switch the left and right and you will have fresh holes. You will
have to remove all of the hardware to switch sides, but it is worth
it. Thanks to Steve Young for that suggestion, and for all of the
Play Meter info.
Brian Bannon
Brian Bannon
> Supposedly starting from Rollings Stones (1980) to Truck Stop (1988)
> used linear flippers. �I know Truck Stop used half and half, (half
> were linear and the other half were WMS Sys11 style), but I'm not
> I can't recall if Space Invaders used them, but I don't think so. �All
> Bally games prior to the 1980's used the "traditional" style of
> flipper crank and plunger.
Yes, Rolling Stones was the first, they even reference the new flipper
design on the flyer.
Brian Bannon
PinMan
Gott Lieb?
cranks available at $3 ea plus shipping. The drawback is that I have
only one side available, (not certain if it's left or right at the
moment).
Jim
Gott Lieb?
Although, I wouldn't call the new slingshots "fantastic". At least
they only touted the flippers as being "great". ;-) It still boggles
my mind why Bally redesigned the slings. The linear slings take up
more real estate under the PF, and they break their brackets, which
are very hard to find.
Jim
Saintos
the end
of the plunger goes thru. This bracket is different on the non-linear
plunger
and is used to stop the the link or the link hits against it and stops
it.
seymour.shabow
> Hmm, I didn't think to look at the flyer. Thanks for the heads up.
> Although, I wouldn't call the new slingshots "fantastic". At least
> they only touted the flippers as being "great". ;-) It still boggles
> my mind why Bally redesigned the slings. The linear slings take up
> more real estate under the PF, and they break their brackets, which
> are very hard to find.
>
I think Bally was on a quest to reduce the hang-down of all their
components.
Or possibly it was an assembly issue - the old design you needed the be
somewhat accurate on the placement - the new one, you could pre-assemble
them and just plop the whole thing in.
-scott CARGPB#29
seymour.shabow
You can use that bracket, the link will not go through the hole.
-scott CARGPB#29
Terrapin Mark
> So, it is ok to use the linear bracket that has the hole in it that
> the end
> of the plunger goes thru.
Yes, you can use the same bracket.
Here are some pictures of the mech before and after.
Before: (top right flipper on skateball)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/Bally-Skateball/DSCF4133
After: (bottom right flipper on skateball)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/Bally-Skateball/DSCF4127
After: (both bottom flippers on skateball)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/Bally-Skateball/DSCF4134
Jim "gott lieb". Maybe you can tell which pawl you have (left or
right) from the pictures.
Mark Salas
CARGPB 30
Gott Lieb?
just to lazy to go look at the moment. :-) Going by memory, I think
they're rights.
Jim
On Feb 13, 4:44 pm, Terrapin Mark <terrapinm...@salascorp.com> wrote:
<snip>
Saintos
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jim,
I got my pawls from you today. Thanks. Perfect. I can';t wait to
put them in my Centaur and Xenon.
David
Gott Lieb?
Jim
Gott Lieb?
Jim
Big12bus
Mark nice review. As for anyone thinking about this....replace the
linear flipper parts, you will be VERY happy. Cost of retrofit is
very reasonable and especially for the difference in play. There is
nothing like a BAD flipper and the Bally Linear flipper exemplify what
a flipper should NOT be. The worst of the worst, junk of all junk.
When they get hot over the course of a nights play, the flipper moves
like it is underwater, saves become non-existent on the flipper tip.
I fought with my linear flippers on my Centaur for Years and switched
them over and every problem went away. No matter what I did it was
never enough. Cabinet switches, all new flipper parts, EOS switches,
playfield bushings, relay, new connectors, dry solder, etc. Yes it
was an extreme example. It finally came back to the Bally Linear
Flipper.
Thanks for all of the help from Brian Bannon, Scott Charles and Duncan
Brown for calibrating my mind. I have now switched over my Centaur,
Fathom, Medusa, and Skateball.
Finally freedom from the junk yard.
Bill
dothedoo
> Mark nice review. As for anyone thinking about this....replace the
> linear flipper parts, you will be VERY happy. Cost of retrofit is
> very reasonable and especially for the difference in play. There is
> nothing like a BAD flipper and the Bally Linear flipper exemplify what
> a flipper should NOT be. The worst of the worst, junk of all junk.
>
> When they get hot over the course of a nights play, the flipper moves
> like it is underwater, saves become non-existent on the flipper tip.
>
> I fought with my linear flippers on my Centaur for Years and switched
> them over and every problem went away. No matter what I did it was
> never enough. Cabinet switches, all new flipper parts, EOS switches,
> playfield bushings, relay, new connectors, dry solder, etc. Yes it
> was an extreme example. It finally came back to the Bally Linear
> Flipper.
>
> Thanks for all of the help from Brian Bannon, Scott Charles and Duncan
> Brown for calibrating my mind. I have now switched over my Centaur,
> Fathom, Medusa, and Skateball.
>
> Finally freedom from the junk yard.
>
> Bill
Couldn't agree more. I always found the linear flippers prone to
binding. The least of which results in the sluggish play Bill spoke
about. The worst of which results in sticking flippers and major
frustration. A terrible design.
Bill Stahly