What were the best Gottliebs from the 50s ?

[Pin Del]

Getting ready to go look at a 1950s Gottlieb & I'm wondering the names
of the Ole Great one's worth buying ?

Would like to see everyone's short list since I can not find much info
on these .

TIA !

Pin-Del,

[John Robertson]

My favourite 50s pin (and I've restored a bunch of them) is still:

Dragonette.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[Frank Furhter]

EK started at GTB in 1965, not sure there was anything 'great' before he
invented the notion of hit after hit after hit.

--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[Wedgehead Killer]

Queen of Hearts would be the one I would vote for

[alexf]

I really like my Globe Trotter. If you go on Clay's pin repair site, under the Gottlieb Evolution section he gives a lot of the games an A, B or C rating. Like most ratings I'm sure it's fairly subjective but he knows his woodrails.
Alex

[Pin Del]

On Jun 19, 5:40 pm, Wedgehead Killer <petersonbr...@att.net> wrote:
> Queen of Hearts would be the one I would vote for

Both of those look really good, I'm waiting on a phone call right now
as the older lady who owns the game knows nothing about them & her Son
is going to call us to give me the name .

Just checking before I drive 2 hours to find out which one's were best
to look for .

Thanks Guy's & I need a few more names .

Pin-Del,

[Pin Del]

On Jun 19, 5:49 pm, alexf <pincalen...@frontier.com> wrote:
> I really like my Globe Trotter. If you go on Clay's pin repair site, under the Gottlieb Evolution section he gives a lot of the games an A, B or C rating. Like most ratings I'm sure it's fairly subjective but he knows his woodrails.
> Alex

Thanks Alex, I'll do that ! ( If I can find the link )

[DirtFlipper]

This is the link Alex is referring to:

http://www.pinrepair.com/gtb/

There are lots of interesting and 'good' woodrails from Gottlieb. They experimented with different themes and concepts in a short period of time, and some worked better than others. The single-player games will have more interest than the multi-players, but each game really needs to be considered on its own. There are several 'A' list titles (among, and relative to woodrails).

1954 and 1958 each have several standout titles in those years (for example).

[J. Shetler]

Any single player Gottlieb game from 1957 or 1958 (except Sunshine) will
not disappoint. There are more some valuable 50s titles, but these are
great players.


--
J. Shetler
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Pin Del]

Thanks for that Link !, I have a 1950 "Just21" backglass that is near
a 9.5 ( hate using #s )
& I'd love to find one of those , I see the game on that page also .

Clay still has a nice web-site too !

[AddictedToEMs]

Knock Out - Sittin' Pretty.

These are ones that I have had or have...

Scott

[Pin Del]

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1991 .

This is it ,,,,, Thoughts ??

TIA

[DirtFlipper]

Once you get past the round top games ('47-'49), you start to get into some more interesting territory (IMHO).

If the cosmetics are nice and the price is fair, it would be a decent pick up. Bear in mind though that the backglass has not been repro'd for this one, so cosmetics are key. The style of coin chute is hard to source, as can be some other parts, so having it be complete is helpful.

Hard to pass up a Gottlieb single-player woodrail if the condition/completeness is there though.

Good luck!

[Arcade Novelties]

+1

A friend of mine had collected several 50's games and Dragonette stood
out to me as a great playing game and overall package.

Dave
http://arcadenovelties.com

[Wedgehead Killer]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:59:32 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote:
> On Jun 19, 6:39 pm, AddictedToEMs <weirpinb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Knock Out - Sittin' Pretty. > > These are ones that I have had or have... > > Scott http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1991 . This is it ,,,,, Thoughts ?? TIA

I think Roy Parker was to Early Pinball what Rembrant was to Dutch Painting. :)

If the price is right, you will never lose money. The game is 63 years old. How many exist today? Woodrails will always be in demand, especially to the multifarious collectors.

[Pin Del]

On Jun 19, 9:02 pm, Wedgehead Killer <petersonbr...@att.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:59:32 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote:

> > On Jun 19, 6:39 pm, AddictedToEMs <weirpinb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Knock Out - Sittin' Pretty. > > These are ones that I have had or have... > > Scotthttp://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1991. This is it ,,,,, Thoughts ?? TIA

>
> I think Roy Parker was to Early Pinball what Rembrant was to Dutch Painting.  :)
>
> If the price is right, you will never lose money. The game is 63 years old. How many exist today? Woodrails will always be in demand, especially to the multifarious collectors.

Thanks everyone ! .
I have put my offer in & I have seen a few not so good pictures of the
game ( I thought I was bad ).
BG has a little flaking & there are a few wear spots on the PF & one
missing bumper cap.
No shots of the Cab either, But I made what I felt was a decent offer.
Will post back if I get a shot at the game ! .

Pin-Del,

[NM]

Many great single players to choose from in this period Derrill, chief
among them (IMO): Queen of Hearts.

My other favorites: Dragonette, Mystic Marvel, Daisy May, Frontiersman,
Hawaiian Beauty, Wishing Well.

Good luck in your search.

NM


--
NM

Current: ACDC PREM, AFM, CFTBL, CV, HUO FGY, MB, MM, NGG, HUO SM, SS,
STTNG, TAF, ToM, TOTAN, TRON LE, TSPP, TZ, WH2O, W?D, 1954 Gottlieb
Stage Coach.

[Gott Lieb?]

Globe Trotter is my pick. Great art, great rules, overall lots of fun!

Jim

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

Can't go wrong with most games
built before '57. Beyond that, you kind of
have to be a fan of the spin roto as it appears
on most of them. 2 that haven't been
mentioned but would be great acquisitions
are Grand Slam and Niagara.

[flippy]

Pin Del <delma...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b953f47b-f1fb-4e43-8133-
9571f4...@i1g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:

Artwork is only so-so.
Gameplay looks good.
No gobble holes.

[flippy]

"Ron, (Boatcat)" <Boat...@aol.com> wrote in news:e7047c2d-696f-46cc-ac06-
7b9bf4...@n5g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

Here is another vote for Grand Slam.
Several ways for Specials, comical
artwork, good playfield layout.

[c...@provide.net]

I generally agree with the comment that Gottlieb woodrails from
1950 to 1957 are the best (single player, pre-roto target.)
But there are some decent roto target models too, if you can
get around the real estate taken by that feature.

I generally don't like games with lots of trap holes. That would
include Dragonette (sorry John) and Happy Days. Amazing artwork,
but the game play doesn't fit my fancy. Kick out holes are way better.
Heck gobble holes are betters.

Gobble holes are OK with me as long as they are implemented well,
and not too invasive. Some games they are really good (Queen of Hearts
for example), others they just piss you off.

For these reasons there are some models that really stick out as
quite fun. Daisy May for example is a really cool game. Also
Diamond Lil. Knockout is good but a bit gimmicky. Marble Queen,
Minstrel Man, Hawaiian Beauty, Twin Bill, Sluggin Champ, Harbor Lites,
Niagara, Spot Bowler, Ace High, World Champ are all quite fun too.
There are plenty of others in the 1950 to 1957 era, but those
stand out for me. In fact there are more "hits" than "misses"
in this era. It would be easier to list the misses than the hits
frankly.

World Champ to me, is the last "real" woodrail. After that things
change. I mean there's still some good woodrails, but the whole
feel is different and more "processed." Still lots of amazing
games but just not the same as the 1950-1957 era of Gottlieb woodrails.
(For example, a number of woodies after 1957 don't have playfield
specials.)

Williams also made some great woodrails. Unfortunately the production
numbers are about 1/3 of Gottlieb. Also williams is more "miss" than
"hit". But in the 1953-1955 era they made some killer games. Nine Sisters
for example is quite fun (even though it has trap holes.) Thunderbird,
Spitfire, Colors, Army Navy, Big Ben, Daffy Derby and Skyway are really
fun games. (I've been looking for a Williams Skyway forever, anyone
have one for sale???) I modify the pop bumpers and flippers to be
Gottlieb style on these game. To me, it makes them a lot more fun.
Otherwise they just don't play right in my eye.
(Not everyone agrees with this though.)

There are some later Williams woodrails that are fun too (and that
are factory equipped with Gottlieb style pop bumpers and flippers.)
Like Gusher, 3-D, Jigsaw and Sea Wolf. These are great games too.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:19:45 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote:

[Gott Lieb?]

What makes Minstrel Man a good game in your opinion? I want someone to tell me the reasons that they think it's a good game, because I don't see it at all. We've had one available for at least 3 years now, and it has not been set up in that time, except one York show. Why? It's not set up because I find the game play to be just plain bad!

The single point scoring means nearly nothing in the home environment, which the completed dead bumper sequence is based on, IIRC. Plus, the drop targets can be total sucker shots. As soon as a lit one is hit, the "V" between the flips drops, and you drain. You have to graze a left or right drop target. The center drop is mainly off limits.

Enlighten me!

Jim

[c...@provide.net]

Well you see, this is a rather typical response. I understand
what many say, but many look at it from a narrow view.
the sequence shots are what makes it interesting. also the
single point value versus the 100k values is also interesting.
what it does is provide three different ways to win replays.
you have single point value, 100k point value, and playfield
specials. there are different strategies for each. so there are
different strategies to proceed when playing the game to achieve
the desired result.

this whole argument that people constantly say about "home environment"
is frankly just superficial nonsense. when i hear people say that,
to me, it means they don't really understand the history and play
value of a particular game. in other words, they just don't "get it."
i'm not saying this to be negative. but what i am saying is the
reason some people want a game that is different.

for example, a lot people want add-a-ball games for home, because
"winning replays means nothing in my house." Really?? if that's the
case than they are missing, at least in my eye, a whole realm of
why pinball is cool. their narrow focus is keeping them for enjoying
a lot of other games.

back to minstel man... the other thing i like about the game is its
historic importance. it's a race themed game. and the first game
to use drop targets. And use them in a fairly race negative manner.
it's a depiction of the time in history. also the V gate on this game
almost seems to have a mind of it's own. And YES you ARE penalized for
making the wrong shot! as it should be too. again another point that
novices miss... they want to be rewarded for good play. but gottlieb
went that extra mile to negative reward for bad shots too. something
truly unique at this point in time. but again many "don't get it"
and just bitch about the consequence of a bad shot.

[Pin Del]

Clay,
Thanks for your input & thoughts on these games, I have never owned a
woodrail, But I do reallt enjoy different kinds of games
As far as the one I'm looking at, It needs a BG & I do not even know
where to start looking for
one of those for this game .
I looked at my "Just21" Glass & thought maybe I could use it in this
game, BUT it would just not be the same.
Not sure if the Pop bumper cap can be found, But I'm still interested
in the game anyway .

Thanks everyone !

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> This whole argument that people constantly say about "home environment"

> is frankly just superficial nonsense. when i hear people say that,
> to me, it means they don't really understand the history and play
> value of a particular game.

> For example, a lot people want add-a-ball games for home, because

> "winning replays means nothing in my house." Really??

I'm glad I'm not the only 1 who
feels this way! Most games were originally
designed as replay versions, and some were
designed originally as add-a-balls. Sticking
strictly to add-a-ball games, "For the home
environment," more than likely restricts you
from the better version of several designs.

[J. Shetler]

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1991 .

This is it ,,,,, Thoughts ??

TIA

_______________
Hi Pin-Del,

I can confirm that one's a good player with a couple nice strategies for
winning replays. Also has 2 million "shot", but it's not easy to get.
Artwork is typical Roy Parker gals. A good game if set up / shopped
well. Sort an uncommon title. Good luck!


--
J. Shetler

[Scot...@att.net]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 12:19:42 PM UTC-5, Ron, (Boatcat) wrote:
> > This whole argument that people constantly say about "home environment" > is frankly just superficial nonsense. when i hear people say that, > to me, it means they don't really understand the history and play > value of a particular game. > For example, a lot people want add-a-ball games for home, because > "winning replays means nothing in my house." Really?? I'm glad I'm not the only 1 who feels this way! Most games were originally designed as replay versions, and some were designed originally as add-a-balls. Sticking strictly to add-a-ball games, "For the home environment," more than likely restricts you from the better version of several designs.

I grew up playing nothing but replay games. I never even saw an AAB game until I got back into the hobby, as I never played in areas that had them.

I've got two games, unfortunately not woodrails, that are convertible to AAB and I've tried them both as strictly an AAB game. I just, for some reason, never find it as fun as having them set on replay. Maybe it's what you grow up with, I don't know, but I just never liked it that well.

There were some games that were set up where you could have the special score as an AAB and high score as replay. I had mine set that way for awhile and I kind of enjoyed that, but I ended up setting it back to all replay.

It's all pinball and it's all good, but I too never quite understood the idea that replays are worthless in the home environment. Since you can play all you want, really, AAB are pretty much the same. Who cares how many balls you can rack up when you can just punch the button and keep on playing.

I owned one woodrail, a Williams Casino, and I enjoyed it. I sold it on and at times wish I had it back, but that's pretty much every game I've had and sold.

I'd love to get a Gottlieb woodrail and some day I will.

[KenLayton]

Sea Belles.


--
KenLayton

[J. Shetler]

Have to keep in mind add-a-ball games were only a consequence to getting
around gambling laws in certain areas. Not really what the game
designers originally intended. If you have a good long running game on
an AAB machine, it can sometimes seem to drone on and on......


--
J. Shetler

[c...@provide.net]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:38:53 PM UTC-4, J. Shetler wrote:
> Have to keep in mind add-a-ball games were only a consequence to getting
>
> around gambling laws in certain areas. Not really what the game
>
> designers originally intended. If you have a good long running game on
>
> an AAB machine, it can sometimes seem to drone on and on......

Man i agree with this! Like Dimension, i frankly can't play
that game. It just goes on and on. Have a similar problem
with Neptune. In both those cases i would rather have the
replay version.

Back to the woodrails... i didn't mean to come across as "cross".
just it's hard to grasp woodrails unless you have really sat down
and played them for a while, and get in tune with that 50s thinking.

To me the glory to woodrails is the many ways to win replays. on
a lot of 60s and later games, there's only one strategy, get a
high score. On woodies, often there are *lots* of ways to win
replays. Since point, 100k points, playfield specials, achievement
through goals... they really thought this out.

For example, there's nothing like winning 26 replays on Sweet-add-a-line.
That credit unit goes off like a machine gun! World Champ was the
last game to have high replay win strategy (10 replays on WC.) There
were other games that did the same thing, all pre-1957 though.

Also Williams 1953-1954 woodies that used the 3 digit credit unit.
I mean they don't make it easy to win, but you can win like 600
credits in a single game. unlikely (more like a slot machine), but
hey it can in theory happen.

Also there is just something about the look of woodies. The wood
legs and wood upper and lower ball arch. The 4 or even 5 color
cabinets. the wood rails. It's artistic i tell ya.

[Pin Del]

Clay,
I've enjoyed reading everything you have typed on this subject & I agree 100% about the Art of these old games & I only wish I knew more about EMs .

I have a EM Gottlieb on the truck right now I'm taking to a 88 year old man
tomorrow to be fixed, I'm sure he could tell you some really good stories & You'd enjoy talking to him .
I Love going to see this Man & he has been in business in the same building since 1947 & I get to listen to him the whole time, I've known him since I was 5 years old & remember seeing a lot of those Ole games and always wanted a woodrail .

Thanks !
Pin-Del,

[timne...@gmail.com]

Was it the Old Mans Business since he was 22 years old, or his Dad first
started it out? All the Old Venders that I got to know in the 90s have all
pretty much past, and they did have stories of much interest from hanging
with Dave Gottlieb, to the truck load of their Bingo Machines being
busted up (New York State). I have a few old EMs out on the side and for
sure, would have loved to be in that business back in the 50s and 60s...

[c...@provide.net]

I feel like a total new comer to the woodrail scene
in this respect. i have a pretty good collection of them
set up and restored. more than anyone else i know except
for just a few people. I would go to Richard Lawnhurst's
house to play his. He's the one that got me really interested
in these games. I always liked how his games played, and listened
to what he did, and tried to improve on it. I'm not afraid to
take a beater woodrail and touch up the playfield and clearcoat
it. I think it's a better representation of what the game was
like when new, with the playing surface smooth. But a lot of
woodrails guys would yell at me for doing this.

I've never seen or played steve young's collection, only heard
his stories. So Richard was my model for these games, as i could
touch and feel his games. Richard doesn't do the touch up stuff,
but his "raw" examples were always better than mine because he's
been doing this a lot longer than i. So from that respect i was
always behind the 8ball, trying to make my less-than-par games
respectable. in the process it made some people upset, because
they felt you shouldn't clear coat a wood rail playfield. Ok i guess
that's true, but if it's pretty worn, i really don't see a choice.

a perfect example was my world champ. i've never seen a nice
original except for Richard's. So i had no choice by to touch up
mine and clearcoat it. It looks great, and plays ever better!
maybe plays too good. My knockout is the same story too. I've
had 3 of those, and everyone has been pretty worn. but with some
good touch up and clearcoat, it makes all the difference, and
the game plays great and looks pretty good too.

[Pin Del]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:45:01 PM UTC-4, timne...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:05:47 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote: > Clay, > > I've enjoyed reading everything you have typed on this subject & I agree 100% about the Art of these old games & I only wish I knew more about EMs . > > > > I have a EM Gottlieb on the truck right now I'm taking to a 88 year old man > > tomorrow to be fixed, I'm sure he could tell you some really good stories & You'd enjoy talking to him . > > I Love going to see this Man & he has been in business in the same building since 1947 & I get to listen to him the whole time, I've known him since I was 5 years old & remember seeing a lot of those Ole games and always wanted a woodrail . > > > > Thanks ! > > Pin-Del, Was it the Old Mans Business since he was 22 years old, or his Dad first started it out? All the Old Venders that I got to know in the 90s have all pretty much past, and they did have stories of much interest from hanging with Dave Gottlieb, to the truck load of their Bingo Machines being busted up (New York State). I have a few old EMs out on the side and for sure, would have loved to be in that business back in the 50s and 60s...

His business since day one ( 1947 )& he is a walking history lesson :)

[Scot...@att.net]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:28:59 PM UTC-5, c...@provide.net wrote:
> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:45:01 PM UTC-4, timne...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:05:47 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote: > > > Clay, > > > > > > I've enjoyed reading everything you have typed on this subject & I agree 100% about the Art of these old games & I only wish I knew more about EMs . > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a EM Gottlieb on the truck right now I'm taking to a 88 year old man > > > > > > tomorrow to be fixed, I'm sure he could tell you some really good stories & You'd enjoy talking to him . > > > > > > I Love going to see this Man & he has been in business in the same building since 1947 & I get to listen to him the whole time, I've known him since I was 5 years old & remember seeing a lot of those Ole games and always wanted a woodrail . > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks ! > > > > > > Pin-Del, > > > > Was it the Old Mans Business since he was 22 years old, or his Dad first > > started it out? All the Old Venders that I got to know in the 90s have all > > pretty much past, and they did have stories of much interest from hanging > > with Dave Gottlieb, to the truck load of their Bingo Machines being > > busted up (New York State). I have a few old EMs out on the side and for > > sure, would have loved to be in that business back in the 50s and 60s... I feel like a total new comer to the woodrail scene in this respect. i have a pretty good collection of them set up and restored. more than anyone else i know except for just a few people. I would go to Richard Lawnhurst's house to play his. He's the one that got me really interested in these games. I always liked how his games played, and listened to what he did, and tried to improve on it. I'm not afraid to take a beater woodrail and touch up the playfield and clearcoat it. I think it's a better representation of what the game was like when new, with the playing surface smooth. But a lot of woodrails guys would yell at me for doing this. I've never seen or played steve young's collection, only heard his stories. So Richard was my model for these games, as i could touch and feel his games. Richard doesn't do the touch up stuff, but his "raw" examples were always better than mine because he's been doing this a lot longer than i. So from that respect i was always behind the 8ball, trying to make my less-than-par games respectable. in the process it made some people upset, because they felt you shouldn't clear coat a wood rail playfield. Ok i guess that's true, but if it's pretty worn, i really don't see a choice. a perfect example was my world champ. i've never seen a nice original except for Richard's. So i had no choice by to touch up mine and clearcoat it. It looks great, and plays ever better! maybe plays too good. My knockout is the same story too. I've had 3 of those, and everyone has been pretty worn. but with some good touch up and clearcoat, it makes all the difference, and the game plays great and looks pretty good too.

I've always felt that it's your game to do with what you want. Sometimes you just don't have any alternative than to do what is necessary to make it a player again.

Which is worse, a beat up game that plays horribly but is "original" or a restored game which is still basically true to the game as it was manufactured but plays great? I know where I land on this.

[Gott Lieb?]

Maybe that's the problem I have with Minstrel Man. I'm not a big fan of playing pinball to crack specials. I know that some guys are into this, because they played EMs where you were playing for specials. It just does nothing for me in a home environment. I prefer playing for high score on newer EMs (multiplayers primarily), and play to see how far I can get in a sequence (Globe-Trotter and others).

I can see where the different ways to win on MM would be cool, when the game was "in the wild", but it just doesn't do it for me.

Jim

PS I don't even want to start on AABs. I'll just say that they do nothing for me. Same thing with solid state / DMD games set for 5-ball.

[conservative outlane posts]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 4:19:45 PM UTC-5, Pin Del wrote:
> Getting ready to go look at a 1950s Gottlieb & I'm wondering the names of the Ole Great one's worth buying ? Would like to see everyone's short list since I can not find much info on these . TIA ! Pin-Del,

Roto Pool !!

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> On woodies, often there are *lots* of ways to win
> replays. Since point, 100k points, playfield specials,
> achievement through goals... they really thought this out.

Definitely! The earlier woodies
usually featured 2-3 different special
features along with a "Points" feature
and high score. Failure in shooting or
obtaining certain shots or targets never
mean't your game was over before it was
over!
My favorite woodrail feature was
the single shot-multiple replay award.
Many woodrails had such a feature, some
with an unusual amount of replays for a
single shot, (including World Champ).
I always felt the beauty of trap-hole
games was the fact that once they were
filled, it naturally made the last
ball(s) harder to drain, improving your
chance for a killer game.
The last games I can think of
where hitting 1 feature 1 time could
specifically win you more than 1 game
on specials is Sweethearts and Buckaroo.
Did I miss any?

[Pin Del]

This is what you guy's will look like when you're 88 years old & Still working on EMs

Meet Gene Trout .

http://www.flickr.com/photos/derrill_amick/9102237071/

[Don O Team EM!]

I agree with Jim and one of the others that posted ... I loved restoring AND playing GLOBETROTTER... I kinda miss it, and I usually don't miss games I've sold.

Don O in MD

[Frank Furhter]

Gene Gene the EM dancing machine. Fucking fantastic!

--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[Kerry Imming]

<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:67a12d96-614f-4727...@googlegroups.com...

>
> Back to the woodrails... i didn't mean to come across as "cross".
> just it's hard to grasp woodrails unless you have really sat down
> and played them for a while, and get in tune with that 50s thinking.
>
> To me the glory to woodrails is the many ways to win replays. on
> a lot of 60s and later games, there's only one strategy, get a
> high score. On woodies, often there are *lots* of ways to win
> replays. Since point, 100k points, playfield specials, achievement
> through goals... they really thought this out.
>

Great discussion; I've enjoyed reading it.

Does anyone know what people thought about gobble holes? They seem to have
been very common on the 50s games. Were they designed to score enough
points that people considered them worthwhile targets?

- Kerry

[c...@provide.net]

Gobble holes generally were used as a multi-special
reward system. Meaning once you set them up, putting
a ball into the gobble would give you multiple replays.
that's usually how games with gobbles were designed.
by 1963 (sweet hearts) gobbles were gone, and so were
the big reward replay systems too.

On jim's comment about only playing for high score...
i understand that everyone has a different reason for
playing and liking pinball. personally i like the
"rat-a-tat-tat" machine gun sound of winning multi replays.
as my buddy gary says, "there's no feeling like beating
the machine." He doesn't play competitively against other
people, he plays against "the machine." i think when you
look at it in that perspective, the whole world of pinball
changes quite dramatically...

[seymour.shabow]

c...@provide.net wrote:
>
> On jim's comment about only playing for high score...
> i understand that everyone has a different reason for
> playing and liking pinball. personally i like the
> "rat-a-tat-tat" machine gun sound of winning multi replays.
> as my buddy gary says, "there's no feeling like beating
> the machine." He doesn't play competitively against other
> people, he plays against "the machine." i think when you
> look at it in that perspective, the whole world of pinball
> changes quite dramatically...

Also, a lot of the layouts were designed to be SHORT playing games,
you're beating the machine in 2 or 3 minutes. None of this multi-hour
stuff like newer deep games..... you didn't do it in 5 balls and 2
minutes, hey, take another 2 minutes and go again.

I really dislike AAB's because it draws the game out a lot. I'll play
and get to the point where it's "enough, already.". I enjoy playing 20
games in an hour (of the game) vs. 3 or 4, which is strange since it's
the same game, but the "fresh start" aspect of it is new.

I don't care for gobble holes in general though, or really wide flipper
gaps.

[Pinaholic (NYC)]

This thread reminds me of when I went to Dude Ranches upstate when I was young. I'm 53 now and remember both places having glorious
game rooms. Lots of Gobble holes. Great stuff.

[c...@provide.net]

I agree to some point on AAB games. this is why, to me,
Dimension and Neptune are not good games - the games just
take too long. I much prefer 2001 to Dimension. Also pinball
has its root in replays not add a balls.

to that point, i would like to mention that most of the
features seen in today's games were invented in 1934 and 1935.
vertical upkickers, kick backs, ramps, buy-ins, extra balls, FLIPPERS,
all that stuff came about in 1934/35. if you would like to read
more about this stuff, check out
http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar
It will definitely open your eyes about pinball. About the only
"new" invention in pinball is the digital scoring and display...

[Frank Furhter]

Playing against the wishes and desires of the designer is the way
pinball should be considered as pure. The rest is a gimmick to get you
to play more and more instead of getting better and better.

[Kerry Imming]

<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:240fe843-f01f-4cb0...@googlegroups.com...

> to that point, i would like to mention that most of the
> features seen in today's games were invented in 1934 and 1935.
> vertical upkickers, kick backs, ramps, buy-ins, extra balls, FLIPPERS,
> all that stuff came about in 1934/35. if you would like to read
> more about this stuff, check out
> http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar
> It will definitely open your eyes about pinball. About the only
> "new" invention in pinball is the digital scoring and display...

Your "ramps" comment caught my attention and I had to go digging through
some IPDB pictures. I'm not sure how I'd classify the pre-flipper games
with ramps, but Black Night certainly brought a new function to the ramps
with the multi-level playfield.

Many features have evolved over the years. More powerful flippers changed
the game. Inlanes changed the game. Magnets have been used both for
randomizing effect (like pop bumpers) and for ball control (magna-save). I
don't know what game first had the "return to flipper" shot, but that
changed the game.

- Kerry

[c...@provide.net]

Daval Chicago Express, 1935. Verical upkickers and ramps.
http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/chicagoexpress.htm

CCM Buttons, 1938. The use of magnets to throw the ball (like Bly Shadow.)
http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/buttons.htm

Inlanes are not new at all. Flippers though thought to be invented
in 1947 really were invented in 1932. Hercules and Juggle.
http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/juggleball.htm

Rockalo army navy had an elevator upper playfield
(opposite of black knight, similar but not quite the same.)
http://www.pinrepair.com/baseball/armynavy.htm

Pop bumpers were invented in 1948.

[Terry Cumming]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:19:45 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote:
> Getting ready to go look at a 1950s Gottlieb & I'm wondering the names

> Would like to see everyone's short list since I can not find much info

Lots of fun games from the 50s. I will add my 2 cents based on games I've played or owned.

Southern Belle - fun with a nice bottom layout that sees the balls often whirl around in circles as you shoot for the 300K targets or specials.

Rose Bowl - strange layout and different scoring (touchdowns vs points). Tricky to beat, especially with a tough tilt. Great to play while the real Rose Bowl is on TV.

Spot Bowler - beautiful game, backglass light animation, challenging to get strikes. Great finesse needed.

Basketball - simple fun trying to get 1-10 and high scoring. Neat feature allows higher scoring until you get close to the replay score.

Lightning Ball - nice bank shots like traversing a baseball diamond.

And about 100 more - many of which I have yet to play or own. These games are beautiful to just sit and look at when lit up if nothing else but most are fun to play too.

Terry Cumming

[c...@provide.net]

I agree with most of the above too.
Rose bowl is cool, but yea, weird scoring. great game.
lightning ball is awesome, one of the best
late 50s woodrails. but doesn't have that killer
massive replay potential.
Spot bowler is a favorite of mine. should have mentioned
it in my original post!
basketball i have not played.
southern belle does nothing for me personally.

[Kerry Imming]

<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:ae918033-b5fa-424e...@googlegroups.com...

>
> Daval Chicago Express, 1935. Verical upkickers and ramps.
> http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/chicagoexpress.htm
>
> CCM Buttons, 1938. The use of magnets to throw the ball (like Bly Shadow.)
> http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/buttons.htm
>
> Inlanes are not new at all. Flippers though thought to be invented
> in 1947 really were invented in 1932. Hercules and Juggle.
> http://www.pinrepair.com/prewar/juggleball.htm
>
> Rockalo army navy had an elevator upper playfield
> (opposite of black knight, similar but not quite the same.)
> http://www.pinrepair.com/baseball/armynavy.htm
>
> Pop bumpers were invented in 1948.

Those are cool features, but I don't agree that the "moveable rail" on
Juggle Ball was a flipper. Likewise, having two levels of playfield is
quite different than a ramp you shoot up to get to another playfield.
Innovation was slower after the 50s, but there was still some significant
evolution in the game.

I believe the transition out of gambling had a big impact on the features
and changes. As a "Game of Skill" the later games had more features that
allowed ball control.

- Kerry

[OTTOgd]

I am far from an expert on woodrails and have only owned three.

Quintette - My first and owned for a couple years and was a pretty good game but the 5 gobble holes were a little frustrating. Plenty of goals to shoot for.

Made a gameplay video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4aOQTKffaA


Guys Dolls - This was just terrible, imho. The up-kicker posts instead of flippers were crap.


K.C. Jones - Yeah, it's a '49 but a lots of simple fun. Even has a ball-save feature! I only have room for one woodrail and I think this is my 'keeper'.

Good luck!

[c...@provide.net]

Personally i don't like Quintette or Guys Dolls. neither
seem very fun to me, for different reasons.
KC Jones i don't know, never played one
(it's pretty rare!)

[Gott Lieb?]

On a semi-related note, I was perusing IPDB for something else, and stumbled upon this interesting game - http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1921. Still miles apart from BK, but pretty interesting.

Jim

[c...@provide.net]

I love the 1935 CCM Rapid Transit. Been looking for one for years,
they just don't come up for sale. It's got a little of everything
with kickers and ramps/habitrails, mini playfield, it's pretty much
all the stuff (in a more raw form) you see on modern games. Well
except for the trap holes...

[Tuna Delight]

Although there are numerous others that I'd like to own yet, these are woodrails that I currently own and would give a thumbs up to:

Pin-Bowler
Spot Bowler
Grand Slam
Hawaiian Beauty
Derby Day
Classy Bowler
Ace High
World Champ
Criss Cross
Straight Shooter


- Tim

[Kerry Imming]

<c...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:80436047-9a6e-4706...@googlegroups.com...

Cool looking game, thanks for posting the link Jim.

- Kerry

[ZNET]

While not a Gottlieb, my vote is for Chicago Coin's 1951 THING. A future PinGame Journal issue is slated to publish an article I penned about the game. Below is an excerpt:


The thing about THING is that it's been overlooked by many pinball enthusiasts over the years. I suspect that this phenomenon derives from the fact that only 500 or so were manufactured and few survive today. Further, the identity of its creater, Chicago Coin, the red-headed stepchild of pinball manufacturers, has been eclipsed by its more successful rivals. The outlier of pinball manufacturers took a chance with a comedic theme. As it turns out, THING is someTHING else indeed. . .

The song was performed in 1950 by Charles Randolf Green. The Phil Harris version is the best known. You may enjoy listening to the Phil Harris version, which is available on YouTube. Many other vocalists have recorded the song, included Ray Charles in 1963. Wikipedia's blurb is below:

The lyrics take the form of a first-person narration, describing the discovery on a beach of a box. Whatever is in the box is never revealed, nor is it called "The Thing" in the lyrics. When the lyrics call for The Thing to be named, the vocals simply pause for three percussive knocks. For example, the first verse ends, "I discovered a [* **], right before my eyes!" (The knocks [* **] are unequally spaced, occurring on counts 1,3 and 4 of the song's 6/8 meter. The listener could substitute any three-syllable phrase his imagination might invent, such as "dog-gone thing".)

The audio associated with the THING point score is remarkable. There are two upper pop bumpers mimicking the boom, boom, boom punch line of the song. . . very clever. The ads for the game called them "boom bumpers." The words "boom-boom-boom" are screened onto the playfield at the upper pop bumpers. It seems that the designers intended to cause a three-beat percussive effect here by creating a quarter-note, followed by a sixteenth note couplet, creating a three hit audio effect. I know of no other electromechanical pinball machine which incorporates such an ingenious audio design. I have discussed this audio effect with renowned pinball designer, John Osborne (Haunted House, Hit the Deck among many others). John states that the score motor has one cam whose points will clearly operate its switch in the aforesaid rhythm. While inspecting a THING score motor, John declared: "I was surprised to see that when rebuilding the motor unit and knew at once that it had to be done to imitate the song." Moreover, the mystery box kicker hole arguably creates the triple boom audio effect as well, confirming the intention of the designer to incorporate the song, which inspired the game, into the player's audio experience.

Bruce Zamost

[llabrevlis]

1950 Gottlieb Bank A Ball - most plain looking game there is, but a great player, my favorite early woodrail.

Ace High - awesome game, great artwork

Nags - best horse racing pin ever, moving turntable is incredible for it's time.

[c...@provide.net]

Calling CCM the "redheaded stepchild of pinball" is a bit harsh.
since the early 1930s they have been a mainstay of pinball. they
were right there when it all started. after the war CCM never
gained the momentum of say Gottlieb in pinball, but frankly no one
had the momentum of Gottlieb pinball during the 1950s and 1960s.

Like United, CCM (and Williams for that matter) took a much different
approach to pinball game design. in the long run it wasn't as good
(clearly), but at the time, it provided a lot of operators with
something Gottlieb didn't provide. CCM was also very heavy into
EM arcade game design (bowlers, skill games, etc.) In fact they were
among the industry leaders in that area. Gottlieb was all about
pinball. CCM had a much wider scope, where pinball was just a small
aspect of their product line.

So frankly when people call CCM names, i think they don't understand
the role CCM played in coin op history. CCM was a player. Heck they
bought Genco in 1957 (again Genco was around from the early 1930s).
Obviously they had some power and momentum. CCM did fade in the late
1970s (bought by Stern), but their influence in coin op history since
the early 1930s is undeniable. For example some of the best EM arcade
games of all time were designed by CCM. So to call them names is,
in my opinion, unfair to their role in coin op history.

I find that pinball guys really have a hard time thinking outside
the gottlieb box. yes gottlieb was the pinball king, but they were
not the king of coin op during the 1950s to 1970s. gottlieb concentrated
on pinball, something no other manufacturer did (not even williams.)
they put all their eggs in one basket. it worked for them, but frankly
it was a rather risky business decision.

for example, pinball is extremely cyclical. harry williams knew this,
and that's why even into the 1990s, williams always had an arcade
game (non video) on the design table to "hold them over the lull.")
Gottlieb didn't have this plan, and frankly they were lucky to some
degree they didn't get swallowed during pinball down turns.

[ZNET]

I'm afraid that at least one forum member may have missed the point of my use of "red-headed stepchild of pinball manufacturers" in describing Chicago Coin. The description is designed to underscore precisely the point that the outlier is worthy of respect and is unfairly demeaned. Get it? You're suppose to love all of your children equally. Thus, far from a harsh description, it was meant to be praise for a manufacturer which rarely receives its props. THING is an excellent example of just how good Chicago Coin was in its day.

[Tuna Delight]

THING does look like a pretty cool game from the photos on IPDB (I've always liked the Phil Harris song too). Thanks for posting this info as I hadn't really been aware of it before!

The only CCM pinball that I have is my '49 Pin-Bowler and it's a winner as well. The backglass animation along with the Roy Parker artwork really makes it! Another positive thing to be said for Chicago Coin woodrails is that their plastics seem to hold up a lot better than the original Gottlieb and Williams plastics. Good thing too as repros aren't available as far as I'm aware.

- Tim

[timne...@gmail.com]

Not only cool. Thing has a good rating. I have many pinballs, but just
a few woodrails. I knew for years where there's a fairly local C.C. Think.
Now maybe I'll work on picking it up. C.C. built solid Arcade Machines, and
their 60's pins were built like tanks. Although not as durable, I'll
always have a Sound Stage. C.C. Midget Skee-Ball, Thumbs Up. (T)

[c...@provide.net]

Ok sorry missed the tone of that i guess.

[Wedgehead Killer]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:38:53 PM UTC-4, J. Shetler wrote:
> Have to keep in mind add-a-ball games were only a consequence to getting around gambling laws in certain areas. Not really what the game designers originally intended. If you have a good long running game on an AAB machine, it can sometimes seem to drone on and on...... -- J. Shetler This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

But if you grew up in CT, WI, or NY that's what we palyed in the 60's and 70's. And for home use, I want some insane scores. Heck I can take a break, make a sandwich, and then get back into the game, nobody standing behind me, nobody with their quarter on the machine. :) I can see where someone would say the game drones on, having played a marathon game of Dimension. :) I got it rolled over so many times I forgot what my final score was ! LOL

The reward is the game continues with AAB, winning a free game on a machine set on free play is sort of a WTF good is that to me. I can hit the credit button anytime I want, for as many times as I want. But pure pinball enthusiasts, and I can see thier point, is to beat the machine with only 3 or 5 balls.

[Gott Lieb?]

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 11:38:19 PM UTC-4, ZNET wrote:

Great backstory! I have a friend who picked one of these up, and it's still in his resto queue. I'm anxious to play it. And now, I want to check out the boom-boom-boom that you speak of.

Jim

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> But pure pinball enthusiasts, and I can see thier
> point, is to beat the machine with only 3 or 5 balls.

You missed the point! Most
enthusiasts would rather play the
better version of each model.
I don't get why people think
the only difference between a
replay game and it's add-a-ball
counterpart is that 1 wins games
and the other wins free balls.
There are usually several
differences, making the game play
quite different. I never thought
it was that hard to determine which
version was the manufacturer's
original design after getting a
chance to play both.

[Frank Furhter]

I would agree.

[Tuna Delight]

I agree that replay and AAB versions of the same game will play differently, but which version is better depends on each individual player's preference.

In Clay Harrell's TOPcast interview with Wayne Neyens, the following exchange occurs:

CH: When you were designing games, did you have a preference whether you liked to design single players or multi-players better?

WN: Well I tell you, I liked add-a-balls best of all.

CH: Why?

WN: I don't know. Just fun to play.


There you go. Well said Wayne!

- Tim

[Wedgehead Killer]

How is Drop a card and 2001 better games than Dimension and pop a card ? in that transition period, 1971-72 Gottlieb was converting over to 5 digit scoring, the 4 digit replay versions actually were dinosaurs once the fixed zero became the norm on all games. Plus even though the artwork on the POP games is almost identical, Dimension has much better artwork than 2001.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> I agree that replay and AAB versions of the same game
> will play differently, but which version is better
> depends on each individual player's preference.

Can't agree with this since
it's all too obvious that making
both versions of 1 playfield design
saved R&D overhead. 1 version or
the other had to be the
manufacturer's intention, and the
other, simply a conversion of it,
(some done worse than others).
"Player's Preference" in
this case, IMO is more often based
on sentiment, rather than
originality-superiority.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> If you have a good long running game on an AAB machine,
> it can sometimes seem to drone on and on......

The more I see like statements
on this subject, the less I understand
it.
Isn't the same thing happening
on newer games? Seems to me, I'm still
shooting for the same sequence over and
over, and also shooting for a ramp 5X
in a row, only to have to do it all
over again because I'm, "In another
mode." Talk about droning on and on...
Chalk it up to DC power, etc.
making any far corner on the playfield
of newer games reachable with ease, but
I'll take the 15-20 ball add-a-ball
game on a 2" flipper pin any day for
the mere fact the playfield real estate
feels bigger and tougher without DC and
3" flippers, giving me the feeling of
having more of a challenge. I usually
don't get bored quite as quickly.
Aside of a few real good games,
IMO, the main attraction of most newer
games is the sound and lite show.

[Tuna Delight]

I'm not following your supporting logic in disagreeing with my contention Boatcat:

1) "Can't agree with this since it's all too obvious that making both versions of 1 playfield design saved R&D overhead. 1 version or the other had to be the manufacturer's intention, and the other, simply a conversion of it,(some done worse than others)."

Okay. No argument here. And I will grant you that based on game release dates per IPDB, Gottlieb's AABs, for example, followed their replay counterparts most of the time. Does this necessarily make the original game the "better" game between the two though? I don't think so. And what constitutes being a "better" game anyway? Better flow? Shorter game time? More challenging? More fun? Unless defined by very specific criteria, this term is highly subjective, and therefore really a matter of personal opinion.


2)" "Player's Preference" in this case, IMO is more often based on sentiment, rather than originality-superiority."

Perhaps. Perhaps not. In my case, I grew up playing replay games in Illinois and never even realized AAB games existed until I started seriously collecting EM pinball games many years later. I now like AAB games just as much as, if not more than, replay games in general.

I don't expect that what I consider to be a superior game will necessarily be agreed upon by the next guy. But that's okay. To each his own.

- Tim

[kiki...@gmail.com]

I grew up playing AAB's so I have an inherent bias for them but having played both versions of a few of GTB's I found the AAB's to be more challenging because the objectives reset themselves after the ball drained. An example would be the 2001/Dimension pair. Once all the drop targets are knocked down on 2001, they stay down for the rest of the game and you have only the center stand-up targets to shoot for which gets old fast. With Dimension the targets reset and you have to do it all over again which to me makes the game a lot more challenging. Same thing for the Domino/Playmates duo although those two have different objectives. I"m not sure if this holds true for all of the GTB replay/AAB pairs but if it does, that in and of itself would make the AAB's superior playing games.

As far as the argument about AAB's games going on and on and on and ..., I must be one piss poor player 'cause I can't honestly say I've ever had that problem.
I'd like to meet the guy or gal that can turn over an AAB like Majorettes.

A true pinball aficionado can for the most part find pleasure in just about any type of pinball machine and I totally agree that to limit ones self to only AAB's or replays is to miss out on all the fun that every machine has to offer no matter how small.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

Tuna,

I agree with you the manuf.
original intention may not have been
the better player in a few cases,
however, I think it's predominantly
that way.
As far as what constitutes
a better game, when seasoned
collectors try and tell me it's more
challenging, more fun, better flow,
whatever reason, I've chosen to pick
what's consistent between all of
these, which seems to be sentiment.
Like yourself, I couldn't
have told you what an add-a-ball game
was until I started collecting. I
grew up in Southern NJ,(replay land).
Now, I have 2 amoung my collection of
8 wedgies, (Hearts and Spades,
Dimension), and can't part with
either. Like yourself, I've warmed
to AAB's and happen to enjoy the
play of these 2 more than their
replay counterparts and would agree
they're just as much fun.
My rant is that people think
an add-a-ball game is always the
better selection in a home setting
merely because winning replays are
meaningless. As you know, each
version plays altogether differently.

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> As far as the argument about AAB's games going

> on and on and on...

If the game is "Dialed In"
properly, this doesn't happen most
of the time.

[Frank Furhter]

You say AAB was by default compremised and defective?
Replay was more of a market, but AAB was the sin of the game and I
believe some versions of AAB are better. Over all replay was best by
default, but not the absolute.

[Frank Furhter]

Yes, but the new games have 'objectives' that can and should be met
along the way to a very long boring game. I agree that new games go on
and on and on, much too long. The love of the EM is the 2-3 min game,
where you quickly and effectively either get it or don't, and get out
and on to the next game (along side the one you are on, or another
replay if you didn't meet the current one). The level of commitment to
a new game for 75 or 1.00 and feel less than ripped off in the process
is outstanding and I hand it to the new generation for having the
patience and skill to learn to flip shit and pay for it. Classics at
least let you bail out or retry quicker without being/going mentally
b[o|r]ke.

[hunn...@gmail.com]

Ill jump into the fray. I didn't grow up playing pinball and so had no bias or knowledge of AAB vs. replay. I picked up my first EM which was an AAB and have owned both types in the past several years. I of course like them both but I'm firmly in the AAB camp. To me, it makes sense and I much prefer to try and keep an inherently short game going for as long as possible and get a high score. I guess I'm not a good enough player to complain about games getting boring. I have all the posts and other settings on the most conservative and its great. In regards to Dimension for example which I own, I love the fact that if particular banks of targets are dropped and WOWs are activated, those targets reset when the ball drains and the WOW chance is gone. It's frustrating and that's why its cool.It forces the player to make hay while the sun shines so to speak because the ball will be draining soon.

[freeman]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:19:45 PM UTC-4, Pin Del wrote:
> Getting ready to go look at a 1950s Gottlieb & I'm wondering the names of the Ole Great one's worth buying ? Would like to see everyone's short list since I can not find much info on these . TIA ! Pin-Del,


check out Straight Shooter.

4 flipper game,
objectives

[bpatton]

[bpatton]