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Em pinball repair (Syracuse ny)
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Matt Fenn
Jun 1, 2012, 11:20:22 PM6/1/12
to
Alright I've had it with this damn em pin.SS pins I can deal with but
Ive still got this one annoying scoring prob on this em and after
hours and hours I've gotten nowhere. Anyone know a good em tech around
here I could pay to figure this out? Either that or this friggin
thing is gonna become firewood!!
Ive still got this one annoying scoring prob on this em and after
hours and hours I've gotten nowhere. Anyone know a good em tech around
here I could pay to figure this out? Either that or this friggin
thing is gonna become firewood!!
Gerry
Jun 1, 2012, 11:25:18 PM6/1/12
to
Steve and his father-in-law are the best EM guys anywhere....
and another guy is Mickey Treat in Rochester...although i dont have
his # i know Bruce Nightengale does...
Gerry
Jun 1, 2012, 11:28:49 PM6/1/12
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Frank Furhter
Jun 1, 2012, 11:48:08 PM6/1/12
to
you don't own one or buy one from the paper pimps. Either way, get your
help and move forward. EMs are easy, seriously.
Kerry Imming
Jun 2, 2012, 12:13:50 AM6/2/12
to
"Matt Fenn" <dropdea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f06013f3-8d5d-4e6b...@w19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
5/23 post?
If you take 8 or so slightly overlapping pictures of the schematic and
e-mail them to me, ke...@team-em.com
I should be able to tell you which switches to adjust.
There were a couple posts about repair help in your area. Another source is
the Mr. Pinball Registry,
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tpcr/search_tpcr.html
a search for area code 315 shows several people that may be able to help.
I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know how far away from you some of
the cities are.
Sorry to hear you're so frustrated. Hang in there.
- Kerry
http://www.Team-EM.com/
Gerry
Jun 2, 2012, 12:58:39 AM6/2/12
to
On Jun 2, 12:13 am, "Kerry Imming" <kcimm...@pobox.com> wrote:
> "Matt Fenn" <dropdeadhip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
the guys i gave him are the most local to us, and by far the best EM
guys i have met....
that is their forte......
between them and Matt it will be good as new....:)
> "Matt Fenn" <dropdeadhip...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f06013f3-8d5d-4e6b...@w19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Alright I've had it with this damn em pin.SS pins I can deal with but
> > Ive still got this one annoying scoring prob on this em and after
> > hours and hours I've gotten nowhere. Anyone know a good em tech around
> > here I could pay to figure this out? Either that or this friggin
> > thing is gonna become firewood!!
>
> Is this still the kickout scoring problem (1950 Gottlieb Knockout) from your
> 5/23 post?
>
> If you take 8 or so slightly overlapping pictures of the schematic and
> e-mail them to me, ke...@team-em.com
> I should be able to tell you which switches to adjust.
>
> There were a couple posts about repair help in your area. Another source is
> the Mr. Pinball Registry,http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tpcr/search_tpcr.html
> news:f06013f3-8d5d-4e6b...@w19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Alright I've had it with this damn em pin.SS pins I can deal with but
> > Ive still got this one annoying scoring prob on this em and after
> > hours and hours I've gotten nowhere. Anyone know a good em tech around
> > here I could pay to figure this out? Either that or this friggin
> > thing is gonna become firewood!!
>
> Is this still the kickout scoring problem (1950 Gottlieb Knockout) from your
> 5/23 post?
>
> If you take 8 or so slightly overlapping pictures of the schematic and
> e-mail them to me, ke...@team-em.com
> I should be able to tell you which switches to adjust.
>
> There were a couple posts about repair help in your area. Another source is
> a search for area code 315 shows several people that may be able to help.
> I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know how far away from you some of
> the cities are.
>
> Sorry to hear you're so frustrated. Hang in there.
>
> - Kerryhttp://www.Team-EM.com/
yea Matt is refering to the knock out.....
> I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know how far away from you some of
> the cities are.
>
> Sorry to hear you're so frustrated. Hang in there.
>
> - Kerryhttp://www.Team-EM.com/
the guys i gave him are the most local to us, and by far the best EM
guys i have met....
that is their forte......
between them and Matt it will be good as new....:)
Kerry Imming
Jun 2, 2012, 7:32:54 AM6/2/12
to
"Gerry" <hotkl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0067a00-15cf-4c82...@z19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> yea Matt is refering to the knock out.....
>
> the guys i gave him are the most local to us, and by far the best EM
> guys i have met....
>
> that is their forte......
>
> between them and Matt it will be good as new....:)
- Kerry
Matt Fenn
Jun 2, 2012, 10:59:26 AM6/2/12
to
Thanks for the info guys. Guess I'm going to give it one more shot before I turn it over to someone else. Good to know the options but I don't like admitting defeat so I'll give it one more go. (I'll PM you Kerry) but for those that asked it's the scoring prob I posted about a week ago. Basically 1950Gottlieb Knockout:
Game works and scores fine except for this problem.
Kickout saucer (actually 2 of them and they behave the same) right above the flippers. They are lit to award 50,000 at game start. Hit the saucers and ball kicks out as it should but no points are awarded. Hitting the left or right rollover switches (above the saucers) increases the lit award for the saucers to 200,000. Once again hit the saucer and ball kicks out but no points awarded. Now hit the rollover switch you havent hit yet (left or right) and the saucer award goes up to 500,000. Now hitting the saucer will award the 500,000 points correctly.
I just can't figure out why the 50,000 and 200,000 point awards aren't working for those saucers (the big 500,000 award does work). Each saucer has a switch has just one contact on it. All other game features and scoring appear to work fine.
Thanks again for the info and offers for help. If I wasn't already so financially underwater on this game (and stuborn) I'd probably just write a check!
Thanks Fellas!
Matt
Game works and scores fine except for this problem.
Kickout saucer (actually 2 of them and they behave the same) right above the flippers. They are lit to award 50,000 at game start. Hit the saucers and ball kicks out as it should but no points are awarded. Hitting the left or right rollover switches (above the saucers) increases the lit award for the saucers to 200,000. Once again hit the saucer and ball kicks out but no points awarded. Now hit the rollover switch you havent hit yet (left or right) and the saucer award goes up to 500,000. Now hitting the saucer will award the 500,000 points correctly.
I just can't figure out why the 50,000 and 200,000 point awards aren't working for those saucers (the big 500,000 award does work). Each saucer has a switch has just one contact on it. All other game features and scoring appear to work fine.
Thanks again for the info and offers for help. If I wasn't already so financially underwater on this game (and stuborn) I'd probably just write a check!
Thanks Fellas!
Matt
Gott Lieb?
Jun 2, 2012, 11:53:22 AM6/2/12
to
W/o knowing the game or having schems., I am going to assume that each
value of the kickout holes use a trip bank relay. It sounds like the
relay switch pair for the 500K value is making, but not the other two
switch pairs for the two values.
Either you have switch pairs which are gapped too far, dirty switch
pairs, or possibly cold solder joints on one of these switch pairs.
From my experience, early 50's GTBs are riddled with cold solder joints.
I would very gently and carefully tug on wires going to the switches on
the trip banks to see if any wires come off the solder lugs. In some
instances, I've seen where the wire looks soldered to the lug, but it is
no longer connected. Do this slowly, because within that rat's nest of
a harness for the trip bank, you have to figure out where the loose wire
goes back again. It can be like where's Waldo when locating the
complimentary solder lug for your wire.
Jim
Gott Lieb?
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
Joe Grenuk
Jun 2, 2012, 4:33:14 PM6/2/12
to
Matt, I spent about a half hour over your problem and over your
schematics, sent you a detailed email, and never heard boo, either
here or privately. What did you do that didn't fix the issue?
schematics, sent you a detailed email, and never heard boo, either
here or privately. What did you do that didn't fix the issue?
Kerry Imming
Jun 3, 2012, 8:45:57 AM6/3/12
to
"Gott Lieb?" <r...@papinball.com> wrote in message
news:Gott.Lie...@rrgparchive.com...
>
> Either you have switch pairs which are gapped too far, dirty switch
> pairs, or possibly cold solder joints on one of these switch pairs.
> From my experience, early 50's GTBs are riddled with cold solder joints.
> I would very gently and carefully tug on wires going to the switches on
> the trip banks to see if any wires come off the solder lugs. In some
> instances, I've seen where the wire looks soldered to the lug, but it is
> no longer connected. Do this slowly, because within that rat's nest of
> a harness for the trip bank, you have to figure out where the loose wire
> goes back again. It can be like where's Waldo when locating the
> complimentary solder lug for your wire.
>
Jim's description fits the problem very well. In "Knock Out" there are two
> Either you have switch pairs which are gapped too far, dirty switch
> pairs, or possibly cold solder joints on one of these switch pairs.
> From my experience, early 50's GTBs are riddled with cold solder joints.
> I would very gently and carefully tug on wires going to the switches on
> the trip banks to see if any wires come off the solder lugs. In some
> instances, I've seen where the wire looks soldered to the lug, but it is
> no longer connected. Do this slowly, because within that rat's nest of
> a harness for the trip bank, you have to figure out where the loose wire
> goes back again. It can be like where's Waldo when locating the
> complimentary solder lug for your wire.
>
bank relays, A and B, that trip when the left and right rollover lanes are
made. Combinations of these relays control 50, 200, and 500 thousand
scoring.
Either a few switches are dirty/out-of-adjustment or possibly a
daisy-chained wire has broke loose and dropped off a couple scoring
circuits. I have a lot more experience with schematics than with real
machines. Shorts and broken wires are difficult to analyze on schematics.
For anyone interested, here's a write-up on how the scoring works:
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/knockout_gottlieb_1950_kickout_scoring.pdf
- Kerry
http://www.Team-EM.com/
fastford02
Jun 3, 2012, 9:42:01 AM6/3/12
to
Kerry, that is an excellent summary. Thanks for posting that diagrahm.
I spent 8 hours on the machine last night with Matt. We did everything
your diagram mentions except trace out swith paths.
1. N is working fine and 10,000 points register with all other
switches.
2, The contacts on the score motor are clean and ringing out good. We
did find a couple cold solder joints and re-flowed them.
3. The switched on the A & B relay appear to be set correctly and we
rang out those switches to check for bad solder joints or broken
switch blades.
4. It is impossible to ring out the circuit becuase the wire
insulation is faded so bad that most wires look the same color.
5. Matt was going to take the playfield out today and systematically
figure out the wires and wire number them.
6. I did stumble across one thing before I left. Everywire on that
bank of relays has to go through 2 jones plugs on the playboard before
getting to relay X or the score motor. I removed these plugs and
noticed that they were tarnished so bad that you could not even ring
some of the pins out. So Matt was also going to sand each pin clean
and try that.
My assumption is that either the jones plugs will be the problem or
there is a wire/jumper missing or backwards on the A&B relays.
Chad
I spent 8 hours on the machine last night with Matt. We did everything
your diagram mentions except trace out swith paths.
1. N is working fine and 10,000 points register with all other
switches.
2, The contacts on the score motor are clean and ringing out good. We
did find a couple cold solder joints and re-flowed them.
3. The switched on the A & B relay appear to be set correctly and we
rang out those switches to check for bad solder joints or broken
switch blades.
4. It is impossible to ring out the circuit becuase the wire
insulation is faded so bad that most wires look the same color.
5. Matt was going to take the playfield out today and systematically
figure out the wires and wire number them.
6. I did stumble across one thing before I left. Everywire on that
bank of relays has to go through 2 jones plugs on the playboard before
getting to relay X or the score motor. I removed these plugs and
noticed that they were tarnished so bad that you could not even ring
some of the pins out. So Matt was also going to sand each pin clean
and try that.
My assumption is that either the jones plugs will be the problem or
there is a wire/jumper missing or backwards on the A&B relays.
Chad
Frank Furhter
Jun 3, 2012, 11:23:55 AM6/3/12
to
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 11:46:13 AM6/3/12
to
I really do appreciate the time you took trying to help me earlier.
I did check the things you suggested in your email and I did send you
an email back.
Maybe I got bounced into your spam folder??
Matt
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 12:06:25 PM6/3/12
to
Wow Kerry thanks for the detailed write up and all your time with this
- you are a very generous guy!!!
As you can see from the other post here, Chad came over last night and
was nice enough to spend all night working on it with me. We didn't
have your write up but eventually came to the same understanding you
summerized so well in your summary.
At this point I think chad and I both feel like either the AB switch
bank is wired wrong (miswired or missing a jumper) or it's a poor
connecting jones plug. I'm now 100% sure the switches themselves are
physically and electrically opening and closing the way they should.
The jones plugs I can clean and ring out today but honestly I'm not
overly optomistic on that being it. My gut says I'd need two bad
connections there to see the problem I'm seeing (possible I suppose).
I'm expecting it's an AB swqitch bank wiring problem and if so I think
I'm screwed. Like chad said the colors are totally faded and it's a
rats nest between the switch blade connections with jumpers
everywhere. I'd beg borrow and plead for anyone owing a 1950 knockout
to take some pics of the wiring under the AB switch banks but I think
my chances of getting that are slim to none. I've also come to the
conclusion paying someone to fix this would be insanely expensive (at
even a cheap hourly rate). God I hope it's in the jones plug
connections - Guess I'll know that shortly :) At least I've learned a
lot.
Chad - thanks for the hours of help man. Without your help last
night, plus the metal work, parts and tool assistance I'd have
probably given up by now.
Thanks again all!
Matt
- you are a very generous guy!!!
As you can see from the other post here, Chad came over last night and
was nice enough to spend all night working on it with me. We didn't
have your write up but eventually came to the same understanding you
summerized so well in your summary.
At this point I think chad and I both feel like either the AB switch
bank is wired wrong (miswired or missing a jumper) or it's a poor
connecting jones plug. I'm now 100% sure the switches themselves are
physically and electrically opening and closing the way they should.
The jones plugs I can clean and ring out today but honestly I'm not
overly optomistic on that being it. My gut says I'd need two bad
connections there to see the problem I'm seeing (possible I suppose).
I'm expecting it's an AB swqitch bank wiring problem and if so I think
I'm screwed. Like chad said the colors are totally faded and it's a
rats nest between the switch blade connections with jumpers
everywhere. I'd beg borrow and plead for anyone owing a 1950 knockout
to take some pics of the wiring under the AB switch banks but I think
my chances of getting that are slim to none. I've also come to the
conclusion paying someone to fix this would be insanely expensive (at
even a cheap hourly rate). God I hope it's in the jones plug
connections - Guess I'll know that shortly :) At least I've learned a
lot.
Chad - thanks for the hours of help man. Without your help last
night, plus the metal work, parts and tool assistance I'd have
probably given up by now.
Thanks again all!
Matt
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 12:14:16 PM6/3/12
to
btw - during our testing last night I think we had done each of the
continuity tests you mentioned Kerry but I'll makes sure to recheck
those again today.
continuity tests you mentioned Kerry but I'll makes sure to recheck
those again today.
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 1:06:27 PM6/3/12
to
Well cleaned and rang out each jones plug and as I feared - no luck.
I did manage to watch the beat to crap hold coil burn up
though.....grrr
I did manage to watch the beat to crap hold coil burn up
though.....grrr
Kerry Imming
Jun 3, 2012, 2:07:22 PM6/3/12
to
news:7f7ba60f-44b4-485e...@y21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
until you get a replacement.
I was hopeful that the jones plug clean up would help. I just recently saw
one that would even conduct power to the playfield even after been reseated.
We had to clean that one to get it to work. That said, unless the sequence
bank with A & B is under the playfield it looks like all the suspect
switches would be on the cabinet bottom panel.
My next recommendation would be to test with a jumper from red-white to:
1. Orange & Blue on the 10,000 PT (N) coil to make sure you have good jumper
power
2. N.C. switch on B with Orange & Blue wires
3. The other side of the N.C. switch on B. It will have a solid color wire
that goes to an A relay switch.
4. The Orange & White wire that is the center of the make-break switch on A
5. Orange & While wire on the N.O. switch on X
6. The other side of the N.O. switch on X, Black & Red wire
The goal is to start at the coil, make sure that's good, then work your way
to the right on the schematics until you find the point that the coil stops
firing.
I picked the 50,000 point path since that's the default and you don't have
to do any setup or worry about SCORE MOTOR switches.
I hope this was clear, but if you have questions I'd be happy to clear them
up.
- Kerry
> Well cleaned and rang out each jones plug and as I feared - no luck.
> I did manage to watch the beat to crap hold coil burn up
> though.....grrr
The HOLD coil is a pretty cheap fix, but you can wedge the HOLD coil on
> I did manage to watch the beat to crap hold coil burn up
> though.....grrr
until you get a replacement.
I was hopeful that the jones plug clean up would help. I just recently saw
one that would even conduct power to the playfield even after been reseated.
We had to clean that one to get it to work. That said, unless the sequence
bank with A & B is under the playfield it looks like all the suspect
switches would be on the cabinet bottom panel.
My next recommendation would be to test with a jumper from red-white to:
1. Orange & Blue on the 10,000 PT (N) coil to make sure you have good jumper
power
2. N.C. switch on B with Orange & Blue wires
3. The other side of the N.C. switch on B. It will have a solid color wire
that goes to an A relay switch.
4. The Orange & White wire that is the center of the make-break switch on A
5. Orange & While wire on the N.O. switch on X
6. The other side of the N.O. switch on X, Black & Red wire
The goal is to start at the coil, make sure that's good, then work your way
to the right on the schematics until you find the point that the coil stops
firing.
I picked the 50,000 point path since that's the default and you don't have
to do any setup or worry about SCORE MOTOR switches.
I hope this was clear, but if you have questions I'd be happy to clear them
up.
- Kerry
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 3:23:27 PM6/3/12
to
Kerry, I understand where you are going with this but honestly I'm
stuck. The color codes are basically totally useless. The colors
aren't visable and everything is jumpered to other switches jumpered
to others etc..It's almost impossible to decipher. For example, both
connections on the normally closed B switch are jumpered to various
other switches in the 5 relay switch bank and none of them appear to
go to a orange-blue wire. I should take a pic and post it because
looking at the schematic (and your advice) i now know what I want to
do but I can't make heads or tails of what connection is what on this
switch bank. It's a rats nest of jumpered unidentifiable wires (and
the jumpers are weaved through the switch blade connections). Frigging
nightmare...I'll keep at it though..thanks!
stuck. The color codes are basically totally useless. The colors
aren't visable and everything is jumpered to other switches jumpered
to others etc..It's almost impossible to decipher. For example, both
connections on the normally closed B switch are jumpered to various
other switches in the 5 relay switch bank and none of them appear to
go to a orange-blue wire. I should take a pic and post it because
looking at the schematic (and your advice) i now know what I want to
do but I can't make heads or tails of what connection is what on this
switch bank. It's a rats nest of jumpered unidentifiable wires (and
the jumpers are weaved through the switch blade connections). Frigging
nightmare...I'll keep at it though..thanks!
Frank Furhter
Jun 3, 2012, 4:20:30 PM6/3/12
to
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 5:46:28 PM6/3/12
to
> Starting to sound like a job for parts machine man!
Not so fast there footdog...
Fixed it!!!
The color codes were useless so I had just start looking at what was
connected where and trying to assign physical connection points to
schematic locations. Took forever but finally got to a point where I
could see the physical world and the drawing start to correlate.
Basically there was a jumper missing. The org/wh wire coming off the
x relay was going to the series NO A / NO B circuit as it should
(thats why the 500k scoring worked). . What was missing was that org/
wh wire connection to the 50K and 200 K series circuits. One jumper
and it works great now. Really odd thing is where the jumper was
needed looked like it was never touched. Other areas it was clear
where someone had done some soldering work in the past but the spot
for the missing jumper appeared totally unmolested - I see no evidence
there was ever a jumper there.
Well thanks again guys, I never would have got to this point without
the help of all the great people here. Chad and Kerry - I especially
want to thank you guys for your hours of help! RGP saves another
one....thanks everyone!
Matt
Kerry Imming
Jun 3, 2012, 6:53:07 PM6/3/12
to
news:427abbe7-096c-4e41...@y21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
You're welcome Matt.... Nice work.
That is certainly among the strangest problems I've run in to. I'm not 100%
sure there isn't a wire elsewhere in the machine that should connect those
two... it's really hard to picture. No matter though... as long as the new
wire is connecting wires of the same color it will be correct, but maybe a
redundant connections to a bad solder joint elsewhere.
I don't mean to sound like I doubt you, I'd question even myself on this
one. It's just very strange... possible, but strange.
I am certainly glad you got everything working. After this, the typical EM
problems will seem way too easy for you.
Enjoy your game.
- Kerry
That is certainly among the strangest problems I've run in to. I'm not 100%
sure there isn't a wire elsewhere in the machine that should connect those
two... it's really hard to picture. No matter though... as long as the new
wire is connecting wires of the same color it will be correct, but maybe a
redundant connections to a bad solder joint elsewhere.
I don't mean to sound like I doubt you, I'd question even myself on this
one. It's just very strange... possible, but strange.
I am certainly glad you got everything working. After this, the typical EM
problems will seem way too easy for you.
Enjoy your game.
- Kerry
Matt Fenn
Jun 3, 2012, 7:10:02 PM6/3/12
to
Yea I was questioning it myself - but the AB switch bank is under the
playfield and the x relay is on the bottom of the cab so the one wire
coming up from the x relay went to one side of a switch and just dead
ended. Based on the schematic it had to connect to the other switch
blades (which were connected together). All other wires coming into
the switch bank from the cab were accounted for so I determined it
couldn't be that more than one x wire was coming up. Therfore that
one x relay wire had to connect to more than that one switch blade.
Yea hopefully future troubleshooting will be a bit easier :)
playfield and the x relay is on the bottom of the cab so the one wire
coming up from the x relay went to one side of a switch and just dead
ended. Based on the schematic it had to connect to the other switch
blades (which were connected together). All other wires coming into
the switch bank from the cab were accounted for so I determined it
couldn't be that more than one x wire was coming up. Therfore that
one x relay wire had to connect to more than that one switch blade.
Yea hopefully future troubleshooting will be a bit easier :)
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