Stuck System 11 (Space Station) Coil, the usual steps aren't working.
Dave Santoro
got stuck lwhen I (very noobishly) tried to adjust the leaf switch one
time while the machine was on. I shorted something out and the rest
is history.
Following the Pinrepair guides I replaced the coil and Q78, Q79, U49,
U50 and U51 on the CPU board. I replaced the PIA and the 7408. I
also replaced C74 (just in case) and R108 (it didn't test out at the
right resistance.) The bumper still goes down as soon as the pin is
powered on.
I took the offending coil out of the circuit and the other two bumpers
work fine so I think I did a good job on the component replacements.
When I disconnected the coil return and the coil did not lock down. I
disconnected the coil switch from the CPU board and the circuit is
still grounding the coil. These steps tell me it's not a short in the
wiring or a bad switch I think.
Any other ideas? I am at the end of my rope here. thanks.
Drewscruis
i think that the popbumper is in the speical solenoid section, if so
look on the upper right hand side of the mpu and look for 6 zener
diodes, chances are 1 of them is shorted.
Borygard
the diode. That took out the drive transistor and diode on the coil.
You'll need to replace the diode and drive transistor again and ensure that
the wiring is properly connected to the coil. The power side (thicker wire
usually the one with two wires) goes to the cathode or banded side of the
diode. The drive (ground) side goes to the anode (non-banded side) of the
diode.
This is assuming all the work done on the ICs is good and you've not lost
any continuity or have any shorts around U49 or U50.
Why would your replace U51? It doesn't have anything to do with the Special
Solenoids. Also, what 7408 did you replace? No 7408 in the SS circuit.
Since the coil engages at power up, this is not a zener diode issue as
Drewscruis suggests. If the coil engaged at the start of a game or in test,
but not right at power up, Drewscruis' advice would be right on.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <dav...@santoro.com> wrote in message
news:f9998cf3-0cbc-4a60...@f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
> My guess is you put the coil in with the wires oriented wrong in relation to the diode. That took out the drive transistor and diode on the coil.
I was very careful about polarity and mimicked the orientation of the
working coils, so I don't think I did this.
> You'll need to replace the diode and drive transistor again and ensure that the wiring is properly connected to the coil. The power side (thicker wire usually the one with two wires) goes to the cathode or banded side of the diode. The drive (ground) side goes to the anode (non-banded side) of the diode.
On this machine the diodes are on the Aux power board so it's harder
to guage it this way.
> This is assuming all the work done on the ICs is good and you've not lost any continuity or have any shorts around U49 or U50.
I think I am good here, I am a fair solderer.
> Why would your replace U51? It doesn't have anything to do with the Special Solenoids.
I think I figured that was the PIA by reading the repair guide and
working backward on the schematic. If it isn' the right one this
could very well be my problem.
>Also, what 7408 did you replace? No 7408 in the SS circuit.
Sorry - was going from my flawed memory. It's the 7402.
Thanks for the advice guys. I will look to see if I replaced the
wrong IC. This would explain the issue for sure.
Borygard
However, please don't replace it without confirming it's bad. It's very
easy to test to see if the output of a PIA is stuck. Simply touch a logic
probe to pin 39 of U54 and see if it changes state when it should when the
pop-bumper should engage.
If the diodes are on the Aux power supply on SS, then the safest thing to do
is simply cut the diode off of the coil. Otherwise following the
orientation the way I described is still necessary.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:75086f56-2833-45e3...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
The switch for the lower popbumper never shows up. Then I
disconnected the playfield switches by removing J8 and J10. and tested
the same switch by jumping pins per the switch matrix, it worked
fine. From this I deduce that I might have a short on the playfield
that is confusing the matrix. This is supported by the fact I just
noticed that my slings have now started activating at inappropriate
times.
That U51 I unnecessarily changed, does it happen to impact the switch
matrix in any way? In any case I am going to hold off on any more
board work until I explore this more.
Thanks so much for your help.
On Jul 25, 10:20 pm, "Borygard" <Boryg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> U54 is the PIA that controls the lower jet bumper on Space Station.
> However, please don't replace it without confirming it's bad. It's very
> easy to test to see if the output of a PIA is stuck. Simply touch a logic
> probe to pin 39 of U54 and see if it changes state when it should when the
> pop-bumper should engage.
>
> If the diodes are on the Aux power supply on SS, then the safest thing to do
> is simply cut the diode off of the coil. Otherwise following the
> orientation the way I described is still necessary.
>
> --
> Rob Anthony
> Pinball Classicshttp://LockWhenLit.com
> Quality Board Work - In Home Service314-766-4587begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 314-766-4587 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>
> "Dave Santoro" <davesantor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Borygard
not a switch issue. That is as long as your flipper relay enable/special
solenoid circuitry is working properly. Do the flippers work in attract
mode, before you start a game or when you're not in test?
That's not to say there's not a problem with the switches as there probably
is since you say you shorted something under the playfield. It's not the
cause of the locked on coil though in this case.
U51 is pretty much for displays. I don't think it would be the cause of
either issue.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:791838ca-c538-4345...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
Yes, the flippers work fine in attract mode. I bought a logic probe
last year, I guess I need to get busy learning how to use it to figure
out what's going on as you suggested earlier.
> That's not to say there's not a problem with the switches as there probably
> is since you say you shorted something under the playfield. It's not the
> cause of the locked on coil though in this case.
I guess I will separate the two issues then and focus on the bumper
first.
> U51 is pretty much for displays. I don't think it would be the cause of
> either issue.
OK. The displays are working very well so that's a good sign,
thanks
Borygard
*that's* a problem and changes everything.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:50a69387-52df-4c79...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
Dave Santoro
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/fdd349352857f568/dc3bdf95b2a270a8?lnk=gst&q=%22have+a+battery+damaged+System%22#dc3bdf95b2a270a8
Unless you think there is more I need to know, I will start with that,
thanks!
Borygard
too in order to resolve the locked on coil. What Drewscruis brought up
earlier in this thread now applies since this is not technically a power
up/locked on coil issue.
Once the flipper enable/SS issue is resolved and the flippers no longer
function in attract mode, if the pop-bumper still engages at power up, then
it's still not a switch side issue. I suspect though that once flipper
enable/SS issue is resolved, the pop-bumper will no longer engage at power
up and that indicates a switch side issue and those zeners should be checked
as Drewscruis mentions. ZR7 will likely be the once shorted and it is a
1N5234 or a 6.2V zener.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bc9b9f25-07b1-4ec8...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
probably pick this back up then.
Thanks for your generous assistance.
Dave Santoro
got the exact symptoms as Shredso in the other thread I linked to. I
have no signal at all on U50 pin 11. Following your instructions I
confirmed there IS continuity from U50 pin 11 to U10 pin 19, so it
looks like I need to replace U10.
I replaced ZR7 already so if you and Drewscruise are correct (and I
think you will be) it should be working after replacing U10. I will
be doing this tomorrow.
Dave Santoro
Replaced U10. Turned on the machine, and everything seemed good.
Flippers did not work in attract mode, hooray! I forgot to check
whether the coil was locked on, instead I put a coin in and went to
game mode. I pressed the flippers a few times and they worked, but lo
and behold the slings are firing every 2-3 seconds in unison.
Turned the machine off, back on, and the flippers now operate in
attract mode again, and the coil is still locked on. Crap.
I checked it out using Rob's procedures and once again no signal on
U50 pin 11. It appears that something in game mode is frying U10.
I think my next step will be to disconnect all the playfield wiring,
replace U10 AGAIN and test all logic per Rob's procedure in the other
thread. If that checks out, I need to test the hell out of every wire
on the playfield before attaching it to the CPU board again.
Anything else I should do here?
Borygard
standard procedure when replacing an IC, especially a 40-pin PIA.
You've likely got a switch on either the pops or slings that is shorting to
the coil voltage. Inspect the switches, the insulator between them, and the
coil drive stack and the wiring to both sets. You'll likely find something
amiss there.
Unfortunately you've likely again taken out U50, U56 and U10 (possibly U45
too, depending on which SS switch stack has the short) If these weren't
socketed, well, hopefully lesson learned and you'll socket ICs in the
future.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d25012f8-7887-4d6a...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
*every* IC replaced so far, even the smaller ones. I read a LOT
before beginning these repairs. :-)
I'll post back when I find that short. I am learning a lot here, and
your
help has been invaluable, thnaks again.
Dave Santoro
shorts. So far everything is looking good, the only thing I notice
that seems odd is that with the machine off one side of each pop
bumper switch has continuity to ground. This is not the case with my
working Jokerz machine.
Is this normal? I think it is because tracing the white wire on that
side of the switches back to the CPU board, I see from the schematic
that it is attaching to a ground line anyway.
Borygard
this the switch side of the pops or the coil engage side?
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ea1a880-1e51-4f93...@p1g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
> Are all the pops exhibiting this?
Yes, as they are connected the white wire I referred to.
> Do they all lock on?
Strangely no.
> Is this the switch side of the pops or the coil engage side?
The coil engage side.
Borygard
then that's the switch matrix (scoring) side of the circuit.
Do all of the switches (not just the pops) register correctly in switch
test?
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea857bd9-8478-4fd2...@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
The white wires connect to the spoon switch on the left top bumper
right now. I thought that was the coil engage switch. If it is not,
then that means I put the wires on backward when I rebuilt the pop
bumper. I thought I was careful here though and it is consistent with
my Jokerz.
> Do all of the switches (not just the pops) register correctly in switch
I cannot go into test mode without pulling the sling fuse (they lock
on as soon as I enter test mode.) After pulling that fuse,
1) in switch levels only the following register:
- the 3 ball trough swithches in column 2, rows 3,4,5
- Space Station #2 in column 7 row 5
- the 3 3-bank drop targets in col 8 rows 1,2,3
2) in switch edges all switches register fine except the slings and
lower jet bumper which don't register.
The only thing I can imagine that would cause that weirdness is a
fried U38. Am I right?
On Aug 16, 9:56 pm, "Borygard" <Boryg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it's the white wire to the pop-bumper switch stack you're referring to,
> then that's the switch matrix (scoring) side of the circuit.
>
> test?
Borygard
each of the different pop-bumper assemblies?
If solid white, it's fine. If it has a different colored stripe on it, it's
the switch matrix wire and if wired like you say is likely the cause of your
issues.
If your current issue is with the left pop-bumper, that's U54, not U38. U38
is used for the right slingshot on Space Station.
Don't forget that all the SS go through U49 too though, after each of the
PIAs, then onto the 7402s and transistors. I'd test U49 before suspecting
U54. Do you have Leon's Test ROM to test the outputs of the PIA? That will
immediately tell you if the output for the pop-bumper is locked on.
This is getting tough to follow. A summery of what is not working currently
might be a good idea.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2c6529fb-78b7-4860...@f42g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>hmmmmmm
>
>The white wires connect to the spoon switch on the left top bumper
>right now. I thought that was the coil engage switch. If it is not,
>then that means I put the wires on backward when I rebuilt the pop
>bumper. I thought I was careful here though and it is consistent with
>my Jokerz.
>
>> Do all of the switches (not just the pops) register correctly in switch
>
>I cannot go into test mode without pulling the sling fuse (they lock
>on as soon as I enter test mode.) After pulling that fuse,
>
>1) in switch levels only the following register:
> - the 3 ball trough swithches in column 2, rows 3,4,5
> - Space Station #2 in column 7 row 5
> - the 3 3-bank drop targets in col 8 rows 1,2,3
>
>2) in switch edges all switches register fine except the slings and
>lower jet bumper which don't register.
>
>The only thing I can imagine that would cause that weirdness is a
>fried U38. Am I right?
>
>
>On Aug 16, 9:56 pm, "Borygard" <Boryg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If it's the white wire to the pop-bumper switch stack you're referring
>> to,
>> then that's the switch matrix (scoring) side of the circuit.
>>
>
>> test?
Dave Santoro
has continuity to ground.
Here is what isn't working:
-lower pop bumper stuck down upon power up
-both slings lock on in test and game modes.
-a whole boatload of switches don't show up in the switch levels test
as outlined above.
I had thought about getting Leon's test ROM before, I think you are
right, the time has come :) I will order that today. While I wait I
will check U49.
Thanks Rob.
On Aug 17, 1:03 am, "Borygard" <Boryg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is the white wire solid white or does it have a different colored stripe on
> each of the different pop-bumper assemblies?
>
> If solid white, it's fine. If it has a different colored stripe on it, it's
> the switch matrix wire and if wired like you say is likely the cause of your
> issues.
>
> If your current issue is with the left pop-bumper, that's U54, not U38. U38
> is used for the right slingshot on Space Station.
>
> Don't forget that all the SS go through U49 too though, after each of the
> PIAs, then onto the 7402s and transistors. I'd test U49 before suspecting
> U54. Do you have Leon's Test ROM to test the outputs of the PIA? That will
> immediately tell you if the output for the pop-bumper is locked on.
>
> This is getting tough to follow. A summery of what is not working currently
> might be a good idea.
>
> --
> Rob Anthony
> Pinball Classicshttp://LockWhenLit.com
> Quality Board Work - In Home Service314-766-4587begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 314-766-4587 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>
> "Dave Santoro" <davesantor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Borygard
on, you've got a playfield issue, wiring at the slings, switch stack
shorting, etc. If they continue to lock on, suspect U45, ZR5, ZR6, U49 and
less likely since they're separate PIAs, but certainly possible both are
bad, U54 and U41. Testing all of these components before replacement is
ideal, no need to replace a good part.
For your lower pop-bumper, compare readings on Q78 and Q79 to the working
transistors next to it. If they read significantly different, then they are
probably bad. With a logic probe, compare U50 pins 5 and 6 to U50 pins 2
and 3. They should behave exactly the same on power up. If they do, probe
U50 pin 1 and pin 4, they should behave the same. If they don't, U50 or Q78
could be the problem.
If U50 pin 5 is high all the time, suspect U49 first. Probe U49 pin 12 and
13, and compare to U49 pins 10 and 11. They should all behave the same on
power up. If U49 pins 12 and 13 are both the same, but different than pins
10 and 11, then U49 is likely OK, probe U54 pin 39 to see if it's stuck. If
U49 pin 13 is the same as pin 11, but pin 12 is different than pin 10, then
U49 is likely bad.
An open trace at U50 pins 4 and 5 can also cause this, so ensure you have
continuity from U50 to everywhere you should.
On your switches, they're fine. Switch Levels show all the switches that
are currently being made. Remove the balls from the trough, and reset the
drop targets and all those switches will no longer show. The Space Station
position will still show however.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587
"Dave Santoro" <davesa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:da9f418d-8373-49c6...@v41g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
Dave Santoro
backwards. This makes me feel better. :)
Dave Santoro
> An open trace at U50 pins 4 and 5 can also cause this, so ensure you have
> continuity from U50 to everywhere you should.
**ding ding ding**
Success! I had lost the tinning through the pin 5 hole of U50.
Threaded it and all is f i n a l l y well with the pop bumper.
Thanks!
Off to work on my sling issue.Thanks very much again.
Dave Santoro
needs this info later.
If you find that in game or test mode your slings are firing every
second or so in unison, be sure you did not mistakenly install a 7402
in U49. That is supposed to be a 7407 chip. I made this mistake a
few weeks ago. I just popped in a new 7407 and everything works
GREAT.
I learned a lot in this process of repairing my first pin. Mostly
that I need to go S L O W. All the problems I had can be attributed
to not paying close attention to details.
Thanks to everyone that offered advice, especially Rob for a lot of
thoughtful responses.