New Flippers on Old Games
Ldnayman
(pre-firepower) is to drill out the metal part of the flipper bat to make it
lighter.
My Gorgar had Bally flippers on it, so I had to order some Wms bats. They don't
make the old style, so I got new-style plastic bats which are attatched to the
shaft.
The question here is...will this improve the flipper performance? Is the
all-plastic bat lighter than the old-style metal and plastic?
Dallas Overturf
"GOOD" coil.
Weakness is usually something mechanically binding or an old coil whose
windings have worn out or bad voltage.
Also thosee coils did not stand up well to several hours constant play.
(still don't today!).
Once they warm up to much they get sluggish till they cool off.
A flipper coil cooling system might be in order.
Dallas...
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"Ldnayman" <ldna...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040908114547...@mb-m26.aol.com...
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
I'm not sure if I'm really understanding this right, and certainly no
disrespect meant to our friend Dave, but from the way I read this, it sounds
pretty ridiculous to me. There really isn't that much weight difference
between an original style flipper and the newer molded bat/shaft type, and
if there were, it wouldn't really affect the overall strength of the flipper
in the "power stroke", but it might in the "return stroke" where the spring
is pushing it back to the rest position.
Sounds to me like the old "putting a band-aid on a band-aid" type of
solution. If the flippers are that weak, then rebuild them with some new
fresh tight parts, or scrap the old designs and install new 1-piece
baseplates with modern flipper hardware. We have some info on the modern
replacement that we did on a Stern Meteor- see: www.actionpinball.com in our
Technical Articles section for more info.
Don't forget that worn/pitted flipper button switches in the main cabinet
can cause loss of current flow and overall weaker flippers, too, so good
idea to replace these with new ones as part of your flipper rebuild or
upgrade- an often overlooked item. I talk to a lot of people with these 25+
year old games that have rebuilt the flippers and still have weak problems
and it's often due to worn flipper button switches that have never been
replaced.
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
someotherguy
set screws go into two small divots that are only present on the old style
flippers. I guess you could jam them in there but I don't see them holding for
very long.
Richard
Ldnayman
>The
>set screws go into two small divots that are only present on the old style
>flippers.
Well I'm not sure. I told steve young I needed flippers, so he sent me these.
Hope it works. If not I'll have to come up with something.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
shafts didn't come with divots already in them- but rather an indented
section at the lower end of the shaft that was used to help line up/center
the set screws that are in the crank. The set screws are what make the
divots in the flipper shaft in that area. They'll bite into a new style
shaft just as well as an old one- you just have to make sure to get
everything lined up okay- the angle of your flipper and the up/down play
through the bushing as well.
But it's better overall to upgrade everything if you have the means and
ability- much better for performance, maintenance, and parts
replacement/upkeep down the road.
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"someotherguy" <someotherguy@SPAM_SUCKSsomeotherplace.com> wrote in message
news:1nnuj0h580tang374...@4ax.com...
David Gersic
> One of Dave Gersic's tips to improve flipper performance on old Williams EMs
> (pre-firepower) is to drill out the metal part of the flipper bat to make it
> lighter.
Using the modern plastic flipper bats should work out about the same, for
the same reason. But, it's cheaper to drill the old ones out if you have
them. ;-)
The idea is to reduce the rotating mass. The less the bat weighs, and the
less weight is located out away from the centre of the shaft, the quicker
the solenoid should be able to accelerate the flipper bat. Quicker
acceleration gives you a snappier, better performing flipper. The
difference is not huge, but is noticable, especially if you have a game
that predates the all-in-one flipper baseplate design.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
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David Gersic
> I'm not sure if I'm really understanding this right, and certainly no
> disrespect meant to our friend Dave, but from the way I read this, it sounds
> pretty ridiculous to me.
No offense taken, Ray, but it works.
> There really isn't that much weight difference
> between an original style flipper and the newer molded bat/shaft type
Correct. It's not a big difference. But it's equivilent to putting
lightweight wheels on a car (stock "steel" vs. Halibrand mags, for
example) to improve acceleration very slightly. That's where I got the idea
in the first place, an article I was reading on sprung vs. unsprung weight
and the affects on acceleration and top speed in the quarter mile.
I'm not saying you'll turn an old Williams flipper mech in to a brand new
one by doing this, just like you won't make an 8 second car from a 16
second car by changing the wheels and tyres. The difference is nowhere near
that great. In a car, you might pick up a tenth of a second in the quarter,
depending on _lots_ of other variables.
> if there were, it wouldn't really affect the overall strength of the flipper
> in the "power stroke", but it might in the "return stroke" where the spring
> is pushing it back to the rest position.
Both directions deal with the same thing, acceleration of the bat from rest
to a maximum speed in a short period of time. My theory is that the time
limit (from rest to the time the plunger whacks on the coil stop) is
limiting the maximum speed the flipper bat can achieve, limiting the
perceived "power" of the flipper. By increasing the acceleration
(slightly), the bat can reach a higher speed in the time imposed by the
physical limit (coil stop), giving you a flipper that seems to have more
power and "snappiness".
> Sounds to me like the old "putting a band-aid on a band-aid" type of
> solution. If the flippers are that weak, then rebuild them with some new
> fresh tight parts
Oh, agreed. This is *after* a full rebuild of the flippers. Get rid of the
worn links, put in new sleeves, clean the gunk, dust, and crap off of
everything, ensure that the bushing isn't cracked, replace the EOS and
cabinet switches, etc. etc. etc.. All that has to be done or the flippers
will suck no matter what else you do.
I'm not advocating this as a replacement for a proper flipper rebuild. I'm
saying that even after I did all of this on my World Cup, I was still
unhappy with the feel of the flippers. They seemed to still be a bit too
clunky. Not as clunky as old Gottlieb EM flippers, but not as crisp as more
modern Williams or even my Zaccaria games. That bugged me.
Part of that clunkiness is that the flipper design sucks. Until they went
to the baseplate design (Firepower?), there are too many pieces to the
design and they're not tied together except by the wood of the playfield.
The other part is that it's accelerating too much weight, and too much of
that weight is located a good distance from the flipper shaft.
> or scrap the old designs and install new 1-piece
> baseplates with modern flipper hardware.
I considered doing that, but decided I'd see what I could do with the stock
parts first. Kinda like putting Ardun heads on a Ford flathead vs. dropping
in a modern Chevy crate engine. Sure, the Chevy is a more modern design,
easier to get parts for, and is arguably overall a "better" solution, but
there's something to be said for the Ardun/Ford setup too.
And, even if you're installing the new 1-piece baseplate flippers, if you
re-use the old bats and shafts, you're still missing a little bit of
potential performance in the setup if you don't drill out the bat. If you
put the modern plastic bats on at the same time, you're accomplishing
the same thing I'm advocating here, which will help the overall feel of the
flippers.
> Don't forget that worn/pitted flipper button switches in the main cabinet
> can cause loss of current flow and overall weaker flippers, too
Yep. I buy switch blades and contacts in bulk as part of my usual "shop a
game" parts stash. Every game gets new button switches and EOS switches.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| Only those who attempt the absurd can acheive the impossible. |
David Gersic
> The new style flippers will work in old style cranks. The old flipper
> shafts didn't come with divots already in them- but rather an indented
> section at the lower end of the shaft that was used to help line up/center
> the set screws that are in the crank. The set screws are what make the
> divots in the flipper shaft in that area.
With the new style, non-indented shafts, the divot made by the pointed
setscrew may make it impossible to remove the crank from the shaft ever
again. That's the other reason for the indented section, to give the divot
somewhere to go without permanently adhering to the crank.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. |
David Gersic
> (pre-firepower) is to drill out the metal part of the flipper bat to make it
> lighter.
One last post on this... I just spent an hour mowing the lawn and had
plenty of time to think. So, committing this to Google's electronic archive
forever, here we go.
My premise is that flipper "performance" as percieved by the player is
primarily one of speed of the ball, combined with some level of feedback
through the mechanical connection of flipper mech, playfield and cabinet
and felt by the player through their hands. There is some level of auditory
feedback as well, as you can hear the mech "thunk" at the end of travel.
Tackling these two items:
Speed of the ball is going to be directly related to the speed of the
flipper bat at the time that the ball leaves contact with the bat. That
makes intuitive sense, so I won't try to prove it.
The speed of the bat is going to be affected by a few things. First and
formost is the force (F) that the coil imparts on the plunger. This will be
reduced somewhat by parasitic loss, primarily friction due to the plunger
shaft rubbing on the coil sleeve, and the flipper shaft rubbing on the
playfield bushing. Additionally it will be modified by the crank as it is
changed from linear motion to angular (rotation) by the crank turning the
shaft, and back to more-or-less linear motion by the shaft moving the
flipper bat. The relative length of the lever arms (plunger/crank to shaft
vs. shaft to flipper bat) should increase the speed of the bat relative to
the speed of the plunger, but reduce the force applied. So, call the force
imparted to the ball F' (F prime), the overall result of the reduction in
force from parasitic and mechanical forces. I'm assuming that the force
applied is relatively constant from one flip to the next.
Now, acceleration is what we're interested in, since that produces speed.
Acceleration is a product of force F' and inertia.
Since we have a fixed range of travel of the mech, we have a more-or-less
fixed time period to accelerate to some maximum velocity (V). To produce a
higher velocity, we could increase the force (F), say be swapping to a
stronger coil. Or we could increase F' by reducing our parasitic friction
losses, for example by replacing a brass or aluminum coil sleeve with a new
Nylon sleeve. We could also mess with the ratio of the crank lever arm
lengths, but that produces other problems in our flipper mech like having
to move the coil over to one side or the other to reach the new location of
the mounting point for the plunger link.
Or, we can make the force we have do less work by reducing the inertia.
Since the time is fixed, the simplest way to gain a higher V is to
accelerate more rapidly. I'm assuming here that the maximum speed that the
flipper bat could achieve is somewhat below what it actually achieves in
the time given. If that's true, then accelerating more rapidly gets the bat
(and consequently the ball) to a higher velocity in the same time. The
simplest way to reduce the intertia is by reducing the mass of the parts
being accelerated, and the further out on the lever arm (flipper bat) the
mass is reduced, the greater the impact that reduction will have.
Actually, the time will be reduced, slightly, but that's unimportant if the
velocity is greater by the time the plunger hits the stop.
Now, it's been a long time since my last Physics class, but I'm pretty sure
that this holds up. Any closet physisists out there that want to prove me
wrong, please do, but I think you won't be able to.
Experientially, most people here have probably never played an old Williams
game, pre-Firepower, with the original parts in good condition, if at all.
But, lots of people here have played Twilight Zone. So think of the
Powerball. Why is it different? What makes it play different? The answer,
of course, is that it's lighter. That reduces the mass being accelerated
(flipper bat + ball), reducing the inertia, and the ball moves more rapidly
than a standard steel ball, even though there has been no change in the
flipper mechs or the force (F') they can impart to the ball. So, a similar
reduction in mass (lighter flipper bat) should have a similar effect for
the same reasons.
Now, I'm not saying that drilling the flipper bat is going to be like
putting a powerball in your pre-Firepower Williams game, I'm only saying
that there will be a change, and that I believe that this change is
percieveable by the player, despite the change being very small, just like
the change from a standard steel ball to a powerball is a very small change
but it's obvious that anybody reading this post can tell the difference in
play between steel and ceramic balls.
The second part is the "thunk" made by the mech as it reaches the end of
travel. I think this is a part of how we perceive flipper "feel". Since the
feel of various flipper mechs is an almost constant topic here, it seems
that this is important to players. By changing the mass of the flipper
mech, the momentum (another word for inertia) of the mech is going to
change. The speed increases (slightly) and the mass decreases slightly, so
there should be some slight difference in the force imparted to the mech
and transmitted through the playfield and cabinet to the players hands.
There should also be a slight pitch change in the sound produced. In
practice, this is probably not important to how the game plays, but does
seem to change how it "feels". Compare an old Gottlieb EM flipper to a
modern Williams one. The Gottlieb has a definite "clunk" to it, compared to
the Williams mech. Both accelerate the ball, but have a different "feel" to
them.
I don't think there will be any major change in the wear of the plunger or
stop due to the increased speed as it's (mostly?) canceled out by the
reduced mass. There may be a slight change in wear for the plunger link,
since it's yanking on a little bit less mass.
Note that in all of the above I'm ignoring the condition of the mechs. I'm
assuming that the condition is constant from one flip to the next. Yes,
over time, the parasitic losses due to friction due rise and eventually
need to be resolved with a flipper rebuild. Yes, crappy switch contacts can
impede electrical flow, changing the force (F) that the coil can impart on
the mechanism. A misadjusted mech can increase the parasitic loss and
decrease F' available to drive the ball. But there won't be much change in
these from one flip to the next. Ideally all have already been addressed by
a proper flipper rebuild. If not, they should be. I'm not advocating
anything here that will replace a proper mechanical and electrical rebuild.
I'm just saying that with a relatively cheap and simple hack[1], you can
increase the performance of the flipper system.
As far as I can tell, I am the first person to come up with this particular
hack. I believe it's based on solid physical attributes of the mech in
question and the physics of the system being hacked. There are good reasons
that it works, as shown above. And, while the theory is good, what's more
important is experimentation. I did this on my World Cup and can perceive a
difference from "before" to "after". No other changes were made at the same
time, so I'm sure that it wasn't a change in coil sleeves or EOS points or
anything like that.
The final proof is in the experiement. Sure, you can dump the old mechs,
pop in new WPC parts, and be done with it. Yes, that improves the overall
mech performance and percieved feel. For sake of argument, call that a 100%
improvement. Cost is around $50-60 by the time you're done with the
conversion. Cost for my hack is, effectively, $0. Maybe it only provides a
90% improvement, but that's still a pretty good bang-for-the-buck ratio. My
theory is that a good portion of the improvement realized by swapping to
WPC mechs is that you swap to the new style (plastic) bats, which are
lighter than the old style bats. If you have a bunch of old Williams
games, and are satisfied with a 90% improvement, you can fund purchasing a
couple more games, or replacing the flipper mechs in about 8-10 games.
I'm not selling anything here. You're welcome to try this, or not. It won't
cost you anything to try (assuming you have the drill press and drill bits
already). If you don't like it, you can always put WPC mechs in. If you do
like it, maybe you can save $50/game. It's up to you.
[1] "Hack" as used here is a positive attribute, a good thing. The term is
being used in it's original sense of modifying a system to work better
than it would normally be able to.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. |
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
additional info! :)
Maybe we should start "corking" our flipper bats.... ;)
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"David Gersic" <dgersic_@_niu.edu> wrote in message
news:cihilr$enr$1...@usenet.cso.niu.edu...
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> With the new style, non-indented shafts, the divot made by the pointed
> setscrew may make it impossible to remove the crank from the shaft ever
> again. That's the other reason for the indented section, to give the divot
> somewhere to go without permanently adhering to the crank.
That's true- good point. Without that indented area, you may get the shaft
stuck in the crank- good point!
David Gersic
> Hmm- interesting- yes, the physics do support the theory- thanks for the
> additional info! :)
No problem.
> Maybe we should start "corking" our flipper bats.... ;)
Just keep the pine tar away from the balls.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| Insert dynamite in drive b: and light fuse when ready... |