WhoDunnit?: The Curse

[PinballPoor]

Ok..I have had this W?D for close to a yr now.
Still can't enjoy it due to the WPC Driver Board Fuse F16 blowing every
20 minutes.
I have posted here and tried everything recommended to fix the (3) reel
motors. I have disassembled them, cleaned them, checked the reel optos.
All runs fine in self test, inc. the optos. I have even replaced the
LM339 chip (socketed) on the right reel stepper board but haven't done
the other two yet.
But as long as I keep the three reel motors plugged into the Stepper
Motor driver boards, that F16 fuse is going to get flaming hot and blow
(or melt). This can't be a good thing to keep doing and I really don't
anymore.
I can't find any reel motors online anywhere...not sure if it's actually
the stepper boards or motors but the fuse stays cool when all three
reel motors are unplugged.
When all 3 are plugged in, the fuse gets dangerously hot in a matter of
2 minutes or less.
When I try one or two at a time, still gets hot but takes a minute longer.
So it seems like all three motor connections are causing the issue, not
just one or two.
Thanks for any insight...I love the game..just wanna play it!

[seymour.shabow]

It sounds like there's always voltage on the motors, enough to draw a
lot of current but not to start the motors going.

Is this an original WPC driver board or some aftermarket?

[PinballPoor]

It is a original WPC driver board, totally reworked by CoinOp Caluldron.
I also have swapped out the WPC driver board with the one in my WCS94,
also completely reworked by CoinOp Cauldron.
Both WPC driver boards exhibit the same F116 fuse overheating problem
when mounted in W2D?.

I do notice when I connect all three reel motors and turn on the power,
they "stiffen" up so they are really hard to turn by hand. But they are
loose when the game is turned off. All three motors spin fine during the
game but sometimes the left reel doesn't match what is in the display.
The opto test passes on all three reels too.

Any other ideas?
Thanks!

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:kp8451$53c$1...@dont-email.me...

> It is a original WPC driver board, totally reworked by CoinOp Caluldron.
> I also have swapped out the WPC driver board with the one in my WCS94,
> also completely reworked by CoinOp Cauldron.
> Both WPC driver boards exhibit the same F116 fuse overheating problem when
> mounted in W2D?.
>
> I do notice when I connect all three reel motors and turn on the power,
> they "stiffen" up so they are really hard to turn by hand. But they are
> loose when the game is turned off. All three motors spin fine during the
> game but sometimes the left reel doesn't match what is in the display.
> The opto test passes on all three reels too.

Are these the three stepper motor boards under the playfield? (page 3-24 in
the manual)
Are they the original boards with original drive transistors?

I can't find Note 4 in the online copy of the manual, but I'd guess it's
important and says something about drive transistors being matched pairs.
If the wrong transistor is installed you could have a direct short from
power to ground. This is a case where you really need to keep the original
part number installed. Are any of the transistors getting especially hot?
That power has to be going somewhere. Oh, and if you find note 4, please
post it here.

I assume you're confident that all the boards are plugged correctly.

If all else fails I'd be interested to know the voltage at the outputs of
the LM339, pins 1,2,13,14.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Thanks for the reply!
Your response really got my gray matter synapses charged!
I printed out the pgs 3-23 and 3-24 in the online manual that showed
what wires went where on J1 and J2 on each stepper motor board and went
to the pin to verify.

I had J1 connector reversed between The Center and Right Stepper Motor
board. DOH!
So I swapped them, verified all the pinouts on pg 3-23 back to the WPC
driver board and those connector pinouts. All now correct per the manual.

But now crazier things happening in reel test mode.
The left reel in the test is spinning the right reel and no optos pass.
Then stops on its own.
The center reel test works correctly. Optos pass.
The right reel test spins the left wheel, then stops on it's own...no
optos pass.

I mean I am looking at the wires from j2 on the left stepper motor board
GOING directly to the left motor and the right motor is spinning in test.

What the heck????

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51B7CDF9...@verizon.net...

Use page 2-9 to make sure the connectors are plugged correctly on the driver
board according to the pin numbering shown on that diagram. Pins are
numbered right-to-left.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Yes. I checked them earlier and just went back to verify. The wire
colors match the connector and pin numbers as per the page 3-23 and 2-9.
I wish I could find something wrong...

FYI, I looked at all the transistors on the 3 stepper motor boards and
they all still look original, same markings on all.

None of them felt warm or hot after leaving game on for a while.

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51B7EFF5...@verizon.net...

> Yes. I checked them earlier and just went back to verify. The wire colors
> match the connector and pin numbers as per the page 3-23 and 2-9.
> I wish I could find something wrong...
>
> FYI, I looked at all the transistors on the 3 stepper motor boards and
> they all still look original, same markings on all.
>
> None of them felt warm or hot after leaving game on for a while.
>
>

>> I mean I am looking at the wires from j2 on the left stepper motor board
>> GOING directly to the left motor and the right motor is spinning in test.

Does your REEL ASSEMBLY look like the one on page 2-4 when viewed with the
playfield up?
There should be TWO boards on the left and the TOP LEFT on should drive the
left reel.

In an earlier post you said F16 (you meant F116, correct?) is getting red
hot. I assume you've checked that this is the correct 3A slo-blow fuse. If
the fuse is getting hot I would expect something on one of those three
boards or motors to get hot also. (You've already isolated the problem
since the fuse only blows when the three boards are plugged in.)

You should also check the resistance across the fuse holder (power off and
fuse in place). You should be very close to zero ohms, maybe 0.1 ohms or
so.

- Kerry

[kbliznick]

Sounds like it's time to replace the motors. they are drawing too
much current and blowing the 12V fuse. Try measuring the current
through each motor and see if it's one particular one or all 3 that
are pulling too much. These motors are available almost everywhere,
but after looking it appears they are all out of stock again.

I have seen this motor sell as cheap as $50 (Mad Amusements) up to
$100 each. Someone at some point found out generic replacements for
$15 each but was in the UK.

[PinballPoor]

It actually only blows the F116 fuse (you are correct, F116) when the
(3) motors are plugged into the stepper motor boards.
So the stepper motor boards are powered up with the single LED light and
all stays cool on those boards except when i re-introduce the motors
though the J2 connectors.
Yes, my layout of the three stepper boards are just as shown in the manual.
Someone even sharpied them L, C, R as positioned.

Fuse F116 is a SloBlo 3A 250V.

Did not notice anything heating up other than the fuse but the motors
are large and may take a while to emit heat.

The resistance value you asked to check reads: 0.3 ohms

When I unhook all 3 stepper boards (J1) , I get 0.1 ohms

[PinballPoor]

It looks like all three are pulling too much, all about equal.
I can test each motor separately with a digital voltmeter.
Can you assist me on how to test each motor?
With power on or off?
Thanks!

[freeman]

> When all 3 are plugged in, the fuse gets dangerously hot in a matter of
> 2 minutes or less.

you should consider cleaning your motors first

tag: part number 14-8024

[John Wart, jr]

Something which may be a wild goose chase...

Who Dunnit was the only WPC game to use the -4 driver board - P/N A-12697-4

-1 is the board with the relay and pre-fliptronics components stuffed on
the board

-3 is the board where the relay etc were no longer factory populated.

Did something change on that -4 board, when compared to a -3? If so,
what and why?

Could there have been a design change for WD, albeit something minor?

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51B8AC15...@verizon.net...

>>
>> You should also check the resistance across the fuse holder (power off
>> and
>> fuse in place). You should be very close to zero ohms, maybe 0.1 ohms or
>> so.
>>
>

> The resistance value you asked to check reads: 0.3 ohms
>
> When I unhook all 3 stepper boards (J1) , I get 0.1 ohms
>

Something's wrong here. The resistance should not go DOWN when you
disconnect the steppers. Make sure you dig the points of the DMM probes in
to avoid measurement problems due to oxidation. 0.3 ohms for the fuse is
high, but I don't think it's high enough to cause your problem.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

You bring up a very good point.
I had swapped the WPC Driver Board with -3 Revision into the WhoDunnit
from my WCS94 sometime ago doing testing.

My WCS94 has the driver board with the -4 revision originally from
WhoDunnit and is working just fine in WCS94. I was testing boards at one
point and just left the -3 board in WhoDunnit and the -4 board in WCS94.

I really don't know what the difference is between the -3 and -4 rev WPC
driver boards.

Anyone have any info on this?

I will probably swap boards between them this weekend to get them back
as they should be.
I am always skeptical to do this as I always like to leave well enough
alone.
Well at least WCS94 is well enough!

[PinballPoor]

I have done this already. Spent a good 3 hrs doing this on all 3 motors.
Thanks for the input.

[PinballPoor]

John Wart brought up a good point below.
I will swap WPC driver boards between my W?D and WCS94 as they were
originally, then re-check the voltages.

[kbliznick]

> It looks like all three are pulling too much, all about equal.

and you checked this with an ammeter? You are looking for current
draw, not voltage. You have to disconnect a wire and put the meter in
series with the circuit not parallel.

Easiest way to do this is to set your meter on Amps (you usually
also have to move the red lead to the other spot, usually listed with
10 amps max on it). Then pull fuse F116. Now put the fuse back in
with just one end in the holder and the other ending sticking up in
the air. Use alligator clips and clip one end to the floating fuse
and the other end to one lead of your meter. Take a second set of
alligator clips and clip one end to the empty side of the fuse holder
and the other end to the other lead on your meter.
When in attract mode with no motors running you should see a current
draw of 0.6 to 1.1 amps. Most likely on the lower end. Now put each
motor in test one at a time and you can see how much each circuit is
drawing. Then run all 4 motors and again see where you are at with
the current on the circuit. (the 4th is the 3 target bank wall that
blocks the ramp entrance).

Most games only use the 12V from Fuse F116 for the optos and for the
sound board. however games with motors have them on this circuit.
Most games use 1 motor, STTNG has 2 motors, Whodunnit has 4! (

I did some testing on this circuit when a mod came out that used 1/2
amp on this circuit. Turns out a lot of the mods also use this
circuit (LED toppers, LED toys, light up aprons, color DMD's). Most
of the mods added .5 amps. The motors from star trek used about .25
to .5 amps each, The circuit was only designed to take 2.4 amps of
load (you only want to run 80% of your max which is the 3 amp fuse.)

Try cleaning the motors again. There should be a large groove in
between the teeth (on the edge/circumference of the disc). You might
need to use a file or a pick to get the metal shavings out as they
like to fill in the groove and form what appears to be a solid chunk
of metal. First time I cleaned one I just used a toothbrush and
didn't realize how much crap was still in there. I used compressed air
and a pick to really get it out. Also don't forget the spring washers
in each one.

[kbliznick]

>
> Did something change on that -4 board, when compared to a -3? If so,
> what and why?
>
> Could there have been a design change for WD, albeit something minor?

From another post

"A-12697-4: One of the solenoid fuses change from 3 amp to 5 amp,
removed the "line level circuitry" (around U6, which is still
present). WPC Schematic Manual 16-9834.2 details these changes on page
1 of the power driver board schematics. The specific components are
R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R195, R200,R201, W1, W2, LED2, and LED3. Can
be used on Addams Family to WhoDunnit (interchangable with the -3
revision). Only used on a one game (just WhoDunnit so it seems). "

looks like it was just a very minor cost cutting step.
http://www.ballinplay.se/manualer/pinball/schematics/williams/Williams_WPC-S_Schematic_Manual_(16-9834.2).pdf

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51B94EDE...@verizon.net...

> John Wart brought up a good point below.
> I will swap WPC driver boards between my W?D and WCS94 as they were
> originally, then re-check the voltages.
>

Did anything else change on the game? Did you add any loads to the +12V
supply? Is there anything else plugged into J116, J117, or J118 on the
Power Driver board?

We've been focused on the motors, but just because unplugging them fixes the
over-current problem doesn't mean there isn't something elsewhere drawing
too much current. A good measurement would be to unplug the motors and
check CURRENT through the fuse by removing the fuse and putting your meter
across the fuse socket. Make sure your meter can handle up to 10 amps and
that you have the leads plugged correctly before attempting.

- Kerry

[Kerry Imming]

"kbliznick" <kbli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1c872b16-2384-431a...@2g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...

>
>> It looks like all three are pulling too much, all about equal.
>
>
> and you checked this with an ammeter? You are looking for current
> draw, not voltage. You have to disconnect a wire and put the meter in
> series with the circuit not parallel.
>

I didn't see this branch of the thread until after I posted the similar
test. Good idea leaving the fuse in the circuit during the test.

Interesting about the -4 version having a 5A fuse for F116. The Who Dunnit
manual definitely says 3A, but that may be wrong. Are there any other Who
Dunnit owners out there that can check their installed value for F116.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Yes, the F116 fuse currently in my WhoDunnit is a 3A SloBlo, just like
the Fuse Chart list says it should be that is stapled to the back of
the cabinet. I could put a 5A in there but for safety reasons, I am
leaving in the 3A for now.

The wheels are coming of the bus here as I try to get the pin to even
perform the reel test correctly. The DMD left reel choice spins the
right reel for a few seconds and stops. The DMD right reel choice spins
the left reel for a few seconds and stops. No opto's sensed on either.
The center reel test works as advertised inc. opto's ARE sensed.

Isn't the right reel stepper board supposed to be connected to the right
reel motor? Same thing for the left. Left stepper board connected to
left reel motor? Well it is. Then why the heck is the left reel spinning
when i run the right reel test and vise versa
?

I am going backwards here. 8-(

[kbliznick]

On Jun 13, 10:54 am, PinballPoor <super....@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 6/13/2013 12:35 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "kbliznick" <kblizn...@aol.com> wrote in message

Ulitmately the 3 controller boards are exactly the same, there is no
left center and right, only which ones that you have the left output
and center output and right output connected. Simply swap the motor
cables for the left and right motors (or the inputs going to the
controller boards) and this will fix the wrong motor moving issue.
Also during this test the game is only looking at the opto for the
motor it thinks is moving so if you are on the left test and the right
motor is moving the game is watching the left opto only, not the
right one.

The -4 revision of the board did NOT change the F116 fuse, it changed
one of the solenoid fuses (F101-F105).

The 12V circuit runs really F'ing hot when it is at 3 amps, so upping
the fuse to 4 or 5 is not the solution here, not without adding heat
sinks or other cooling options.

[Kerry Imming]

"kbliznick" <kbli...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:8c7ca7c7-efc4-49f3...@c3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

>
>The 12V circuit runs really F'ing hot when it is at 3 amps, so upping
>the fuse to 4 or 5 is not the solution here, not without adding heat
>sinks or other cooling options.
>

This is the unregulated 12V supply, i.e. no regulator. What gets hot?


- Kerry

[kbliznick]

The bridge gets HOT!

[PinballPoor]

On 6/13/2013 6:50 PM, kbliznick wrote:
> The bridge gets HOT!
>
Surprising that BR5 while it does get warm, it's is nowhere near as
blazing hot as F116 gets..

[PinballPoor]

I went and swapped the inputs on the Left and right stepper boards
coming from the WPC driver board and that fixed the reel test issue.
Now all three reels turn as they should and all the optos test ok as well.
Still have the issue with the left reel never landing on what the DMD is
displaying.

I don't understand why the reels did what they did when I followed the
schematic in the manual to the letter with the color coded wires and
which stepper motor board they are to go to.

Should I re-clean the left reel motor or maybe I will have to replace it
since I have cleaned it once.

[kbliznick]

Check the current. Please do that first , this will tell you which
motor(s) are causing the problem.

The one not landing on the correct picture is likely a loose wheel/
broken hub on the slot reel.

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51BA50E6...@verizon.net...

I was looking to find what current BR5 was rated for... didn't find it.
BUT, I found several old RGP threads about BR5 getting hot and/or burning
out on Who Dunnits? Hmmm...

I agree with the suggestion to compare currents with the different motors
plugged in. Perhaps one is drawing more than it's share of current.

There are also suggestions to check/replace C30. I should have thought of
that, but if that gets old it will start to draw current and not keep the
voltage as stable.

- Kerry

[kbliznick]

On Jun 13, 6:33 pm, "Kerry Imming" <kcimm...@pobox.com> wrote:
> "PinballPoor" <super....@verizon.net> wrote in message

The bridge is probably rated for anywhere from 15-30 amps, but will
unsolder itself from the board well before it gets there because of
the lack of cooling.

[PinballPoor]

Sounds good. Will check the current readings on the motors tomorrow and
let you know the findings.

I will investigate for a loose wheel or broken hub on the right reel as
well.

Thanks!

[PinballPoor]

Bump! I meant I will check the left reel, not the right.

[PinballPoor]

Well, I have a cheep Harbor Freight Digital Multimeter.
The reading I got was 0.0 and 0.01 in the reel test and 3 bank test so I
don't think this $4 meter is any good.
Will try to get a decent meter today.

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51BB22FE...@verizon.net...

I don't think this is a meter problem... unless you blew the fuse in the
meter.
Are you sure you have it set to 10A range and the leads plugged in the 10A
and common jacks?

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Sorry for the delay. I read the manual on the Harbor Freight cheepie SKU
98025 DVM that I have and it says if the reading is less than .2 amps,
to switch the red lead to the VnmA (Center) jack and set the range
selector switch to the 200mA setting.(The "n" is "ohm symbol in my text
cause don't know how to send a OHM symbol.)

Well, the reading was less than .2 so I did as it suggested and then the
meter started to smoke so I pulled it. 8-(

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51C22713...@verizon.net...

>
> Sorry for the delay. I read the manual on the Harbor Freight cheepie SKU
> 98025 DVM that I have and it says if the reading is less than .2 amps, to
> switch the red lead to the VnmA (Center) jack and set the range selector
> switch to the 200mA setting.(The "n" is "ohm symbol in my text cause don't
> know how to send a OHM symbol.)
>
> Well, the reading was less than .2 so I did as it suggested and then the
> meter started to smoke so I pulled it. 8-(
>

Well... if it wasn't bad before, it is now.

Sounds like you should add a heat sink to BR5, something like this:
http://electronics.mcmelectronics.com/search?cataf=&view=list&w=bridge+rectifier+heat+sink


- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Yeah, I need to get a decent DVM.. Can you recommend one in the 25-50
dollar range?

Wow, that would make me feel better to have that dissipating the heat on
BR5.
Thing is, the fuse , esp. the glass, get super hot more than BR5 does.

I will order that to cool things down..I will post once I get a DVM that
works!
Thanks!

[wayout440]

You already knew this circuit was drawing more than 200mA otherwise the
fuse would never blow and not even get close to hot. There is one
setting on that meter for high current marked 10A that is used in
conjunction with the 10ADC and COM lead jacks. Almost any other meter
will be similar. It may be an inexpensive meter but it will work just
fine. You are measuring pinball machines not some super high tech stuff
that needs the specs of a fancy expensive meter.


--
wayout440
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[wayout440]

kcimming;2083523 Wrote:
> "PinballPoor" <super.pcc (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message
> news:51C22713.1020101 (AT) verizon (DOT) net...

> >
> > Sorry for the delay. I read the manual on the Harbor Freight cheepie
> SKU
> > 98025 DVM that I have and it says if the reading is less than .2 amps,
> to
> > switch the red lead to the VnmA (Center) jack and set the range
> selector
> > switch to the 200mA setting.(The "n" is "ohm symbol in my text cause
> don't
> > know how to send a OHM symbol.)
> >
> > Well, the reading was less than .2 so I did as it suggested and then
> the
> > meter started to smoke so I pulled it. 8-(
> >
>
> Well... if it wasn't bad before, it is now.
>
> Sounds like you should add a heat sink to BR5, something like this:

> http://tinyurl.com/kple2gu
>
>
> - Kerry

A heat sink is well and good to keep the bridge cool and prolong the
lifespan of the part but still will do nothing to fix the problem. That
3A fuse getting hot, eventually popping is designed to protect the
wiring and components from burning up. If this amount of current is
permitted in the circuit by overfusing or otherwise this can cause
severe damage to the game - or even a fire.

[wayout440]

PinballPoor;2083677 Wrote:
> On 6/19/2013 11:56 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:

> > "PinballPoor" <super.pcc (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message
> > news:51C22713.1020101 (AT) verizon (DOT) net...
> >>

> >> Sorry for the delay. I read the manual on the Harbor Freight cheepie
> SKU
> >> 98025 DVM that I have and it says if the reading is less than .2
> amps, to
> >> switch the red lead to the VnmA (Center) jack and set the range
> selector
> >> switch to the 200mA setting.(The "n" is "ohm symbol in my text cause
> don't
> >> know how to send a OHM symbol.)
> >>
> >> Well, the reading was less than .2 so I did as it suggested and then
> the
> >> meter started to smoke so I pulled it. 8-(
> >>
> >
> > Well... if it wasn't bad before, it is now.
> >
> > Sounds like you should add a heat sink to BR5, something like this:

> > http://tinyurl.com/kple2gu

> >
> >
> > - Kerry
> >
> >
> Yeah, I need to get a decent DVM.. Can you recommend one in the 25-50
> dollar range?
>
> Wow, that would make me feel better to have that dissipating the heat on
>
> BR5.
> Thing is, the fuse , esp. the glass, get super hot more than BR5 does.
>
> I will order that to cool things down..I will post once I get a DVM that
>
> works!
> Thanks!

A Fluke 75 you can get into for just a little more - $65 on Ebay right
now. It's a commercial quality meter and more than enough for pinball
troubleshooting. I've used one here in our shop for years.
http://tinyurl.com/kztwe5a

Don't worry about "supercooling" the bridge with a giant heat sink,
you're wasting your money. You won't need it once you fix what is
driving your current way up.

[flyman]

Did you or are you going to replace the BRs`. I`ve had them test good & be bad also. Wouldn`t hurt to try that also.

[Kerry Imming]

"wayout440" <wayo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:wayout44...@rrgparchive.com...

>
> Don't worry about "supercooling" the bridge with a giant heat sink,
> you're wasting your money. You won't need it once you fix what is
> driving your current way up.
>

I'm all for learning what the current draw of those motors are, but based on
reports others about that BR5 bridge overheating and/or failing, I think the
designers have overloaded that circuit. Adding a heat sink is a reasonable
precaution that doesn't hurt anything.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

On 6/20/2013 5:30 PM, flyman wrote:
> Did you or are you going to replace the BRs`. I`ve had them test good & be bad also. Wouldn`t hurt to try that also.
>

They have all been replaced by CoinOp Cauldron as needed.The board has
been gone over thoroughly and given his clean bill of health.

[PinballPoor]

And I am still puzzled why when I connect just one of the stepper motors
to any of the three boards, the overheating occurs.
I can't have three "shorted" motors, can I?

When I leave all 3 stepper motors disconnected, BR5 and F116 gets
lukewarm only.

[Kerry Imming]

"PinballPoor" <supe...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:51C49D81...@verizon.net...

> And I am still puzzled why when I connect just one of the stepper motors
> to any of the three boards, the overheating occurs.
> I can't have three "shorted" motors, can I?
>
> When I leave all 3 stepper motors disconnected, BR5 and F116 gets lukewarm
> only.
>

Unlikely that 3 motors went bad all at once. Until you get an actual
current measurement with one of the motors plugged in, I'm not sure what
else to do.

- Kerry

[PinballPoor]

Will do. I will try and buy a new DVM this weekend that handles 10Amp
load.Thanks for your patience and support on this.

[kbliznick]

>
> Will do. I will try and buy a new DVM this weekend that handles 10Amp
>
> load.Thanks for your patience and support on this.

The cheapo meter did have a 10A current setting. Did you have it hooked up correctly through the fuse holder to measure the current? Can you post a picture of how you had it wired up?

[PinballPoor]

Yes, I know. The directions stated if I could not get a reading over .2
AMPS, to switch the leads and set range selection switch to the 200mA
setting.Then the smoke came.
I reading I got was below .2 Amps when it was set for 10Amps.
I think I have another elCheapo meter I will hook up as indicated and
take a pic of it for you.
I will try to capture the reading in the DVM.

[PinballPoor]

On 6/22/2013 12:06 PM, kbliznick wrote:
>
>>

Sent you 3 pics today. Did you receive them ok?

[kbliznick]

>
> Sent you 3 pics today. Did you receive them ok?

yes, and unless you had the dial turned 180 degrees it looks like you have the set-up correct. The 10 amp circuit in the meter will usually have a small fuse in it and there is a chance that fuse was broken/missing or loose to give that low reading, or the meter sucks. I have used the $30 Centech meter from Harbor Freight for this exact measurement and it worked.

[PinballPoor]

On 6/24/2013 1:41 AM, kbliznick wrote:
>
>>
>> Sent you 3 pics today. Did you receive them ok?
>
> yes, and unless you had the dial turned 180 degrees it looks like you have the set-up correct. The 10 amp circuit in the meter will usually have a small fuse in it and there is a chance that fuse was broken/missing or loose to give that low reading, or the meter sucks. I have used the $30 Centech meter from Harbor Freight for this exact measurement and it worked.
>

Yep. That meter sucks.. I mean all meters are not created equal and for
the $5 or $6 I paid, I guess I got what I paid for. 8-(
I measured the AC line voltage in the wall when I unhooked it from the
game after setting the dial accordingly and the probes accordingly and
got 124VAC so at least that works.

I will buy a better DVM soon and re-measure. I am really curious now.

To be continued...

[PinballPoor]

Got a $20 DVM at Home Depot and guess what? Same reading as the $5
Harbor Freight meter.

Still reading .02 and .03 Amps when going thru the F116 fuse.

As I pulled the top part of the fuse out of the holder, the fuse cap
came loose (probably from all the heat). I pull the cap and the coiled
wire came off the insulation center that looked like spun glass or
asbestos (I hope not)...They don't use asbestos in fuses, do they?

Anyway, put in a new 3A SloBlo and metered it up with the new $20
Commercial Electric Home Depot DVM. Again, .02 and .03 Amps and the same
reading when I run the reel test on all three reels.

I did notice that the new 3A SloBlo fuse got nowhere near as hot as the
old fuse. It was designed differently internally. Whereas the old fuse
had coiled the wire around some insulation, the new one looked like it
has a small bead in the middle at the end of a thicker wire.

BR5 still gets hot but the fuse in my opinion only gets half as hot as
before. So maybe a heatSink on BR5 and I'm home free...???

[PinballPoor]

Never mind. The replacement fuse blew in about 12 minutes while in the
middle of a game.
BR5 got SUPER HOT again too.
8-(

[wayout440]

You're still doing something quite wrong here. 20 mA is not possibly
going to blow a 3A Slo-Blo fuse. I can't discern what exactly you are
doing wrong from the post. Current is also going to fluctuate depending
on what is actually running at any given time. Possibly you were
measuring 20mA and then you had current soar when something else turned
on, like the reels?

[Sonic]

Just a thought, but if you unplug all three reels and play the game - what happens? If nothing happens - then you are assuming your reels are in good shape and clearly they are not....all three being bad is unlikely - but one being bad is....at the end of the day - you need to determine current draw through the reels when they operate and discern their individual draw...or remove them and power them up outside the game and see what they draw...

[Tracelifter]

kcimming;2081303 Wrote:
> "PinballPoor" <super.pcc (AT) verizon (DOT) net> Pins are
> numbered right-to-left.
>
> - Kerry

Pins are numbered clockwise right to left on the bottom, left to right
on the top of the DB.

Eric
CARGPB #56


--
Tracelifter

[PinballPoor]

On 6/27/2013 9:39 AM, Sonic wrote:
> Just a thought, but if you unplug all three reels and play the game - what happens? If nothing happens - then you are assuming your reels are in good shape and clearly they are not....all three being bad is unlikely - but one being bad is....at the end of the day - you need to determine current draw through the reels when they operate and discern their individual draw...or remove them and power them up outside the game and see what they draw...
>

Game plays fine if I unplug all three motors from the stepper boards.
F116 and BR5 stays cool.

If you read the whole thread, I already feel like something is "shorted"
in the motors, even though I have cleaned them once.

But finding these replacement motors is a PIA...I have been looking for
one to replace the left reel motor since it never lines up right but
passes the reel test/opto test.


Only the left reel won't line up with what the DMD is showing.

[wayout440]

So if you were to swap the INPUTS to the stepper motor boards between
the left and the center, would the problem follow and now become the
center reel not lined up? If it stays the left reel not lining up
after switching them that would confirm the reel (or associated stepper
driver board) is a problem. If the problem would now become the center
that is not lining up, your problem may be further upstream.

If you don't isolate this problem you are going to be a bit angry going
through the trouble of finding a replacement reel if that is not
actually the problem. BTW - the motors can be clean and still be
shorted. Cleaning won't fix that.

[PinballPoor]

Yes, the schematic shows each motor has a pair of solenoids in it.
There are no brushes in these motors so is it right to say that these
solenoids "activate" based on induction?

[wayout440]

PinballPoor;2085454 Wrote:
> On 6/27/2013 12:05 PM, wayout440 wrote:[color=blue]

>
> Yes, the schematic shows each motor has a pair of solenoids in it.
> There are no brushes in these motors so is it right to say that these
> solenoids "activate" based on induction?

You are really close. Yes, there are no brushes between the rotor and
stator assembly; a stepper motor is a multipole (polyphase) brushless
DC motor. The pair of solenoids is actually a pair of permanent
electromagnets. These multiple coil pairs can be energized either
positive or negative resulting in four unique full steps. When the
coils are sequenced correctly, the motor rotates forward. When the
sequence is reversed, the motor rotates in reverse. When the sequence
is held, the rotor locks (brakes) in place.

[Sonic]

Right then....understand, and just trying to help, but it seems to me that you are beating your head over what seems to be pointing to bad motor(s)....so until you can take them out of circuit - power them via a DC power supply and read the current draw - your going to have to just replace them...

[PinballPoor]

On 6/27/2013 3:54 PM, Sonic wrote:
> Right then....understand, and just trying to help, but it seems to me that you are beating your head over what seems to be pointing to bad motor(s)....so until you can take them out of circuit - power them via a DC power supply and read the current draw - your going to have to just replace them...
>

I have all the equipment here to perform those tests. I just don't have
the knowledge in how to test/setup each motor for the test. Can you
advise the steps? I have a bench 12V power supply and a DVM. Just need
to know how to connect it on the bench to test each motor. Thanks!

[wayout440]

In your case, where the motor is running - but suspect (meaning not
simply "dead") It's a bit more complicated to test out of circuit. A
simple google search will give you information on how to ohm out the
connections. To properly test you would need to build a driver circuit
test fixture.
In the case of a WhoDunnit (or any reel slot machine) You have three
identical motors and driver circuits to compare against one another:
either by ohming out the driver boards/ motors out of circuit or by
taking voltage drop measurements in circuit (you don't have to do a
current draw test if a motor is suspect to be drawing too much current -
ohms law dictates this will show up as a different voltage drop compared
to a healthy motor). This is the easiest way to isolate and identify
which of the three driver boards or motors is at fault. Then what
remains is either repairing or replacing that component. You can
probably replace parts and rebuild a failed driver board, a motor that
has already disassembled and cleaned but still fails will usually need
to be replaced.

[Sonic]

That's where I was going....the stepper motors can be funky (by the way in the late 90's those were the same ones used in most 5.25" floppy drives and such) because you have four coils per motor - and one can be a problem, times 3 motors - you have 12 total autonomous coils to fire those reels....clean or not - one can give you grief - but since they are coils - simply ohming them out should give you some ideas....

[PinballPoor]

On 6/28/2013 9:38 AM, Sonic wrote:
> That's where I was going....the stepper motors can be funky (by the way in the late 90's those were the same ones used in most 5.25" floppy drives and such) because you have four coils per motor - and one can be a problem, times 3 motors - you have 12 total autonomous coils to fire those reels....clean or not - one can give you grief - but since they are coils - simply ohming them out should give you some ideas....
>
>

Thanks. Hot a new DVM today. Will do some measurements this weekend off
the 4 prong wire stepper motor connectors to see if there is an "oddball".

[PinballPoor]

I finally have a new Home Depot DVM made by Klein Tools MM200.
Any way I can probe the 4 wire connector going to each reel motor to see
any "variations"? What setting would I use and what 1-4 pins would I
test?..I just wish I knew more about electronics to quit asking step by
step help. Maybe you could send me the link to that google search for
ohming out connections?
Thanks!

[PinballPoor]

On 6/28/2013 4:15 AM, wayout440 wrote:

I learned this today with my new DVM.
J2 on the three stepper motor board is a 6 pin connector.
1: -B
2: B
3: Key
4: NC
5: -A
6: A
If I set my DVM for DCV and turn on game with reel motor connectors
plugged into the stepper boards and test for voltages on pins 5 & 6,
and I put the Red Probe from the DVM on 5 and the Black Probe on 6, this
is what I get on the Left, Center and Right boards for voltage readings.

Left: -8.73 VDC
Center: +8.77 VDC
Right: +8.77 VDC

Why would one of them be a negative voltage and the other two positive
is my first observation?

[wayout440]

PinballPoor;2086084 Wrote:
> On 6/28/2013 4:15 AM, wayout440 wrote:

> > PinballPoor;2085507 Wrote:[color=green]

>
> I learned this today with my new DVM.
> J2 on the three stepper motor board is a 6 pin connector.
> 1: -B
> 2: B
> 3: Key
> 4: NC
> 5: -A
> 6: A
> If I set my DVM for DCV and turn on game with reel motor connectors
> plugged into the stepper boards and test for voltages on pins 5 & 6,
> and I put the Red Probe from the DVM on 5 and the Black Probe on 6, this
>
> is what I get on the Left, Center and Right boards for voltage
> readings.
>
> Left: -8.73 VDC
> Center: +8.77 VDC
> Right: +8.77 VDC
>
> Why would one of them be a negative voltage and the other two positive
> is my first observation?

It looks like you have a problem with the stepper motor driver board for
the left motor or the connections into it. Each motor driver is an H
bridge design circuit with a positive VDD supply. This provides four
outputs for the steps. They are the same voltages, it's just the
sequencing that is changed to turn the motor. Try disconnecting the
motors and measure the pins on J2 (schematic attached - the same A+,A-
pins @J2) If they are now the same for the left/center/right then the
motor is really screwing something up. If the pins for the left are
still different after disconnecting the motor then something is wrong
with driver board or something further up the chain. Measure the input
pins J1 for each board, paying particular attention to pin #4, which is
the +12VDC supply. If the J1 pins are measuring the same between the
boards, the problem is on the stepper driver board.

Filename:-----------> who.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2135

[PinballPoor]

The voltages at J1 ,pins 4 & 5 testing for +12VDC, I get +14.27VDC on
all 3 stepper boards with the J2 connector disconnected.

With all three J2 motor connectors connected to the (3)stepper motor
boards, with Red probe on J2-5 and Black Probe on J2-6, I still get
-8.7VDC on the Left board. The Center and Right board show +8.7 VDC when
probed the same way as the left J2.

When I pull the J2 motor connector off all (3)boards and test J2-5 & 6
the same way, I get:
Left: -13.3VDC
Center: -13.3 VDC
Right: +13.3 VDC

Help!!!

Nothing seems consistent!

So when all (3) J2's are plugged in, only the Left reel shows negative
voltage at J2-5&6 but when I unplug all 3 motors from the boards, the
Center becomes negative voltage from positive.

[wayout440]

PinballPoor;2086276 Wrote:
> On 7/1/2013 7:47 AM, wayout440 wrote:

> > PinballPoor;2086084 Wrote:[color=green]
> >> On 6/28/2013 4:15 AM, wayout440 wrote:[color=7:08 PM 10/21/2009]
> >>> PinballPoor;2085507 Wrote:[color=green]

>
> When I pull the J2 motor connector off all (3)boards and test J2-5 & 6
> the same way, I get:
> Left: -13.3VDC
> Center: -13.3 VDC
> Right: +13.3 VDC
>
>

Based on what I see above,
Try this...if you perform the exact same test as above but physically
swap the Left and Right boards do you end up with:
Left: +13.VDC
Center: -13.3VDC
Right: -13.3VDC

It would really be helpful if I had a WhoDunnit to take test
measurements on, or someone on the boards had a WhoDunnit to compare
with. I'm doing the best I can not knowing exactly what you are
supposed to be seeing. It could be more than one problem as well.

The above check I have suggested is just to determine if there is a
stepper motor driver board problem (i.e. the motors disconnected the
measurement changes follow a stepper motor driver board when moved)
Motors out of the equation, I believe all three boards should have the
same measurements in a static state (in other words, the game isn't
telling the motors to run and they are sitting idle)

[PinballPoor]

Yes..I haven't had another W?D to compare to so it makes it tough, esp.
when voltages need to be compared.

I thought you had a W?D in your collection. Sorry, I misunderstood and
that makes it even nicer you are willing to help as much as you have. I
will nail this problem eventually. I did replace the LM339 chip on the
Left Stepper Motor board some time ago and socketed it while doing it.
I did it because the left reel would never line up with the DMD picture.
Someone suggested to replace the LM339 chips. Once I did that, the left
reel performed the same, no different. I do notice that when I first
turn on the game, the left reel will twitch where the other two do not.
I have even seen the left reel spin in the reverse direction slightly
when powering off the game. Not all the time though. Might have
something to do with the negative voltage I get on the left stepper
motor board J2 connector.

[wayout440]

Thanks. I did repair a W?D stepper board in the past for someone,
without using the game. Found a couple of problems with it, not just
LM339s.

Right now I am just trying to help you isolate this problem down to a
board/ or motor (It could be multiple problems, too). In theory if you
move both the left motor and the left stepper driver swapping those
entirely with the right stepper driver and motor, then the twitch and
odd operation problem should move becoming a problem on the right reel -
if the stepper board and/or motor are bad. If this isn't what happens
then you could have other problems further upstream or even those other
boards related to the reels like the EMI braking, except I don't have
enough on info about them to comment further.

So where are the W?D guys? Any of them read the boards?

[PinballPoor]

I will try swapping the connectors J2 & J1 on the Left and Right Stepper
Motor boards and see..

I did have Korn try to assist a while back, among some other suggestions
from other RGPers.
I guess they (RPG Members) either don't like me...or have bigger fish to
fry maybe...or they just don't know what to do...it's all good. I know
how valuable time is..and to help a advanced newbie like myself that can
follow instructions to the letter but no good at diagnosis.

I can read a schematic but the one I have from IPDB.ORG is barely legible..

I would hope that a W?D owner might chime in here sometime soon.
This thread is rolling on pretty long now...8-)

I tried to test the transistors on the stepper boards. 4 of the 8 showed
up bad and I thought I was on to something.Korn explained unless I cut
them out of the circuit, there was no way to test...I guess you would
have to look at the schematic too to see what he was talking about.

[shea...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 04:38:14 UTC+10, PinballPoor wrote:
> Ok..I have had this W?D for close to a yr now.
> Still can't enjoy it due to the WPC Driver Board Fuse F16 blowing every
> 20 minutes.
> I have posted here and tried everything recommended to fix the (3) reel
> motors. I have disassembled them, cleaned them, checked the reel optos.
> All runs fine in self test, inc. the optos. I have even replaced the
> LM339 chip (socketed) on the right reel stepper board but haven't done
> the other two yet.
> But as long as I keep the three reel motors plugged into the Stepper
> Motor driver boards, that F16 fuse is going to get flaming hot and blow
> (or melt). This can't be a good thing to keep doing and I really don't
> anymore.
> I can't find any reel motors online anywhere...not sure if it's actually
> the stepper boards or motors but the fuse stays cool when all three
> reel motors are unplugged.
> When all 3 are plugged in, the fuse gets dangerously hot in a matter of
> 2 minutes or less.
> When I try one or two at a time, still gets hot but takes a minute longer.
> So it seems like all three motor connections are causing the issue, not
> just one or two.
> Thanks for any insight...I love the game..just wanna play it!

hi...

I had this problem and FIXED IT.... after having a resettable fuse connected for months.
what its not... motors. even though I replaced them with new ones. check out robot shops not pinball parts for new ones.
stepper boards... no matter how many chips I replaced, same issue.
Bridge rectifier 5. replaced and heat sink.... no diff.

now what I remember I did do was replace the br 2 and 3 and one of the tip107.

Id bet my left nut that you will fix it by checking you tip107 and replacing bad ones.

Best of luck.