Troubleshooting a Bally Bingo Circus Queen

[Sharon Murphy]

I've been round and over and through this and I can't find the problem. It was working when I got it, then after a few weeks, the shutter wouldn't close at the start of a game.

I've taken apart the ball lift motor, and put it back together, there doesn't seem to be any loose connections or bad switches on 2A, 14B or the timer step up unit. The step up unit works manually just fine. If 2A is held closed, it takes a few for the timer unit to get the signal. Switch gap is fine though. I guess the next step would be to try jumpering those three places together (in case of a bad wire) and see if that works, but I'm not really clear on what leads go where at either end.

Been getting advice from Phil at cdyn and he's amazing, but I don't want to seem a pest, either.


ALSO.

The green selector button just quit on me. At first, it was a loose wire in the cabinet/head plug. Resoldered that and it was fine for a few times. I don't know what it is now. The switch at the button seems to be operating as it should though.

[american...@hotmail.com]

Loose or corroded pins/spring contacts on the Jones Plugs between the PF and backbox panel or from the ball lift and plunger assemblies.

[CEG]

Just because contacts are touching doesn't mean it's making a
connection. You might have some dirty ones.

Chas

[Sharon Murphy]

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:26:46 AM UTC-4, american...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Loose or corroded pins/spring contacts on the Jones Plugs between the PF and backbox panel or from the ball lift and plunger assemblies.

I replaced one of the Jones plugs when the pins broke. The others I have cleaned both the pins and the contacts, and squeezed the contacts in tight.

[Sharon Murphy]

Just because contacts are touching doesn't mean it's making a connection. You might have some dirty ones.
Chas

True....would that cause something to fail that was working before?

[Pinball Muggle]

The shutter does not close until the 2nd ball lifts to the shooter lane. If it’s not I’d first check the trough switches.
Does the timer reset and step up?
I’ll need to look at the schematics for the green button issue (which I may not be able to until for an evening or two).

Steve Smith
Richmond VA

[Pinball Muggle]

Oh I just thunk – if you meant that the shutter doesn’t OPEN at game start-up (and guessing you’ve confirmed the motor is working) have a look at the switch stacks on the shutter panel motor – one may have been snagged on the catch panel when lifting the playfield. Also check/clean the start relay switches.
Bad wire is unlikely but a maybe give small tug of each at the lug just to be sure.
let us know.

Steve Smith
Richmond VA

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Agreed with Steve, also, if your shutter isn't _closing_, check the switch under the gate. Shutter won't close until that switch is actuated, and it steps the timer up. Ensure that the timer is firing and work your way back.

Nothing is quite so satisfying as getting a bingo working! Is this your first?

[Sharon Murphy]

Yes, my first Bingo :) It was a lot of fun for the fist month lol. I had no idea there was such a thing when I saw it, and it was so unique I had to take it home with me. I've learned the history of them now, and I like them even more.

Okay, yes, the shutter isn't CLOSING. Turn on the game, and it's in tilt with the shutter closed, hit the switch that mimics a nickel (going to put it back to nickels after it's working!) and the shutter opens and a ball lifts. It's either after the ball lifts or I shoot it and it drains that the shutter closes for game play.

But it doesn't ever close anymore, it doesn't start a game, tilt or not.

The timer steps up and resets fine - when it gets the signal to. I have to hold down 2A for a good 15 count before it will step. I'm certain the shutter unit has caught on the drain table more than once, but I have checked the switches there and they seem to work right lol. Like I would know. It works sometimes, but not when it's supposed to. So out of that switch bank, which one am I concerned with? Or all of them?

[Nicholas Baldridge]

There's the one furthest to the right which activates the motor, but it's probably further up the chain than that. When you say '2A', do you mean on the control unit or on the lifter motor?

I don't think it's either. I suspect it is the ball gate switch, which normally has to close before the shutter motor closes and the second ball is lifted. If this switch is misaligned/shorted, then your shutter motor will not close properly, timer won't step up correctly, and you won't be able to play.

Normally, there's a little bracket to help with clipping the shutter motor switches on the ball return board, but I've certainly hit them before - just check to make sure nothing's out of line or broken.

I would really try taking apart the ball gate and starting with that switch. You want it to just barely close when a ball moves through. Ensure that the wire wrappings are still good, and they're not shorting against the sides.

Then, check the shutter panel switches (the bank on the right side that close when the panel opens). While you're in there, check the switch on the right side of the shutter motor switches and ensure that that one is clean and working when the cam turns.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Or maybe that switch is normally closed.... And only opens when the ball travels through. Use common sense, but I still imagine that that is the culprit.

[Sharon Murphy]

Ball gate switch....It looks like it's opening when a ball passes through.


I don't know what I did....the ball lift motor won't run at all. I can hold down the leftmost switch on it and it runs, but it won't do it on it's own.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Yep on the ball gate switch - but check for shorts! That's the thing that controls the shutter motor close.

I was totally wrong about the timer (that's what I get for answering without looking at the schematics) - 2A on the lifter jumps the timer like you were saying.

Take the switches off and clean them on the ball lift motor, and check your trough switches.

All 8 balls must be in the normal positions in the trough in order for ball 1 to lift.

Your shooter lane switch must also be properly gapped and cleaned.

Trough switches can also affect timer.

Also, check shutter motor switch 1B - on mine an NC O.W.O. switch. If it is closed when the panel is open, then the timer will not step up when starting a new game. Also, 1C is a similarly adjusted switch to 1B and opens a circuit to the lifter motor.

It might be that the shutter motor switches are just messed up - just like Steve said before I hopped in (sorry! I get excited about troubleshooting bingos, but I get into trouble when working from memory).

At this point, two biggest possibilities are trough switches or shutter motor switches for lifter/timer. Check the shutter motor switches first.

[Sharon Murphy]

GAH! I think it's haunted or something lol.

I took apart both the shutter motor and the ball lift motor and cleaned and adjusted the switches. (and found a switch that was missing a spacer! Fixed that.)

Put it back together and now when I wiggle the playfield it clicks the red selection unit in the back off and on, and as soon as I lower the playfield, it turns off the motors (some tilt or other I guess) Green selection still not working.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Green selection is going to be controlled otherwise - let's just get it running first then troubleshoot the pic a play.

Check your tilt trip adjustments and start and anti-cheat relays, please.

[Pinball Muggle]

I recommend trying these 5 things:

1) Confirm every switch on the six relay bank (above the replay meter -
player's left).

2) Confirm both stacks of 16 pulse switches (just left of the mixer
motor).

3) Confirm every trough switches -(sw#1 is under the lifter not in the
trough - I think the map shows them with ball one served -- I think)

4&5) Patience & Grace

Now, I mean “With no doubt at all” kind of "Confirmed" (each
is clean - no deep pitting – make & break w/ deflection & the wire
on lug is right).

If these don't get something going I have the next few steps in mind.

Let us know when ALL these are confirmed.
Good luck and don’t forget 4&5 !!!


--
Pinball Muggle

Steve Smith
Richmond VA
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Sharon Murphy]

Geez Steve. 4 and 5 are going to be HARD. Cant I just order that from Marco's?


Er...your apostrophes or some words or some other something came across as gobbledegook. Not sure what these were exactly, but I think I get the idea.

"I mean “With no doubt at all&#8221"

"no deep pitting &#8211"

"Good luck and don’t forget 4&5"

#1...that large intimidating looking set of switches that go most of the way across the bottom of the head when I have the front down? *that* bank?
Or the strip of coils in a column on the back door, or the switches on the shutter motor....?

#2....not going to the basement tonight, I could look myself, I'm sure...that's on the back door, or in the top of the head?

#3: I checked the trough switches again yesterday and they all worked okay, even the one the pin closes under the ready to be lifted ball. I can also hear the click for the shooter ball sensor wire switch (no idea what it's really called, if that wasn't obvious) and the ball gate switch when I activate them. Speaking of switches, what is that little plain metal button under the shooter for? It has a switch behind it, but I can't see that it does anything

I had a heck of a time with the shutter motor switches. They weren't that bad to gap when they were off the motor, but when I put it back on, suddenly they were all touching wrong again. So I had to redo it with them mounted, and then the protection bracket (haha yeah, THAT helps a lot. Not.) kept squeezing the bases of the switches until I found the spacer thingy stuck in the wire harness. Kept moving them back and forth, I'm glad no one was listening to me. "open/close/open/close/open/close *angle lighted mirror differently* open/close/open/close" for each connection within the stack.


Nicholas: er...what is this anti-cheat relay I keep hearing about? It sounds like a different thing than a tilt switch. All I know is what I've been told so far. I have some *amazing* knowledge gaps :D Oh! Knowledge gaps: here's one. I know 'coil' and I know 'switch' but relay I'm maybe not as clear, is that the coil and switch together?

I'll recheck the tilts again tomorrow, the one under the shooter is a pita if I forget to remove the balls and I start the lifter. BANG! I suppose it's possible a ball landed on it and did something.

The largest cog on the left of the ball lifter assembly is developing a divot just before the bump that closes the switch. It still goes around okay and the switch doesn't get stuck if I am holding 2A closed, but I'm not sure of it's behavior when it's only lifting one ball: stopping and starting, instead of just going around and around. Is that something I should try to fix, or is it okay?

[Nicholas Baldridge]

The relay bank Steve's talking about is behind the back glass, with the front pulled down, to the left. This is the area with the start, replay reset and anti-cheat relays.

If you're hearing clicking on those switches, that is a great sign. Those sound like they are operating correctly.

The tilt trip is on the back door, on the large relay bank.

The mixer with the 16 pulse switches is at the top of the back door.

A relay is just a coil that moves switches around.

The button under the shooter rod is actually a backup lifter button. If the ball gets stuck, depending on the arrangement of the trough switches, timer, and some other variables, that button will force the lifter to lift.

The divot thing: I'm not certain I understand - are you saying that this divot is preventing the lifter from moving the switches? With the power off, you can pull the lifter rod around (big rod connected to the cams and to the left of the tilt Bob), and you can see how the switches react at different parts of the cam. This is especially useful on the control unit or mixer.

Have you got the paperwork for this machine? Troubleshooting without, especially on your first one, would be awful. Your manual will show the area of the schematic that contains the switch in question (like lifter 2a), and you'll be able to see what is supposed to hit next in the circuit on the schem.

Lastly, Steve uses RGP archive, I think, and it posts a bunch of junk if he uses special characters (maybe he was using backticks or something instead of single quotes - I'm too lazy to look up those HTML escape chars right now.). Usually you can ignore what the symbols show and assume he is quoting something. :-)

[Pinball Muggle]

Lastly, Steve uses RGP archive, I think, and it posts a bunch of junk if he uses special characters (maybe he was using backticks or something instead of single quotes - I'm too lazy to look up those HTML escape chars right now.). Usually you can ignore what the symbols show and assume he is quoting something. :-)[/QUOTE Wrote:
>
>
> this is correct.
>
> nb -- i hope you can help me correct this one day. it happens from my
> old toshiba laptop thats running xp.
>
> sm- you can call me if you need one on one coaching ... see the parts
> area of phils site for contact info

[Sharon Murphy]

The divot isn't stopping the cam from turning, but I'm concerned that if it gets worse, it could. Did you say I could manually turn the ball lifter by moving the arm around and see the control unit or mixer react (or not)? Aren't those in the head? I don't have arms *that* long lol.

Yes, I have a schematic and manual. It's been very useful so far :)

I wasn't sure if the strange characters from Steve's post were just inserted or if they replaced words.

I guess the backup lifter will work once the game is working too :) Since it's not starting a game, it would make sense that isn't working either.

Steve - thanks, I'm trying not to be that desperate to need to call lol.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

I just meant that you could use the same technique to troubleshoot the control unit and mixer (not all at the same time). Isn't there a divot that it settles into at rest position? Is that the one you mean, or a separate one?

I checked and those weird HTML codes are all fancy quote marks of one kind or another. I sent Steve a message that will hopefully help control those.

Good that you have the paperwork - at least you'll know the theory of operation (practice may be different, haha!).

[Sharon Murphy]

Oh, good lol. I thought you knew some special way to reach them both lol.

It comes to rest just before the bump. It might have been a divot there on purpose once, but it looks frayed there, so I wasn't sure.

I fixed the red selector tripping when the playfield moves.

I checked all the switches mentioned before, I think the only two issues now are the green selector and the shutter not closing (The ball lifter doesn't activate, but I assume that's because of the shutter. Or the other way around maybe)

Sharon

[Ben Myers]

>"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:03dbd6d1-624d-4687-b5af->67236b...@googlegroups.com...

>I've been round and over and through this and I can't find the problem. It was working when I got it, then after a few >weeks, the shutter wouldn't close at the start of a game.
>I've taken apart the ball lift motor, and put it back together, there doesn't seem to be any loose connections or bad >switches on 2A, 14B or the timer step up unit. The step up unit works manually just fine. If 2A is held closed, it takes a >few for the timer unit to get the signal. Switch gap is fine though. I guess the next step would be to try jumpering those >three places together (in case of a bad wire) and see if that works, but I'm not really clear on what leads go where at >either end.
>Been getting advice from Phil at cdyn and he's amazing, but I don't want to seem a pest, either.

Start a new game with the back open, watch the timer unit and make sure it indexes once when
the first ball is raised. If not, check the switch on the ball lift assembly. I don't have a Circus
Queen, but on my Golden Gate, this switch seems to be activated by a projection on the inner ball lift cam.
If the timer unit indexes normally, see if the ball gate switch at the top of the playfield is de-energizing
the lifter start relay when the first ball is shot. This page gives a good explanation of what is supposed
to happen.

http://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/howtheywork/ball_lift/normalballs.html

>ALSO.
>The green selector button just quit on me. At first, it was a loose wire in the cabinet/head plug. Resoldered that and it >was fine for a few times. I don't know what it is now. The switch at the button seems to be operating as it should though.

There should be another Jones plug at the front of the machine. I'm not sure if the green button goes through this,
but you might try removing and reseating it.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

Thanks Ben. At the moment, there is no first ball raised because it never really thinks it's starting a game.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:61d6bc84-1905-4fce...@googlegroups.com...

> Thanks Ben. At the moment, there is no first ball raised because it never really thinks it's starting a game.

If you are saying that the machine resets, but doesn't raise the first ball, make sure it has all
eight balls and that they are the correct size. Bingos use 1 1/8 inch balls and using balls from
an ordinary machine can prevent it from detecting the correct number. Also, please note that the
shutter isn't supposed to close until the first ball is played.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

Oh NO!

I was rechecking the shutter motor switches and a spring fell out. I'm not sure if it went to that, or if it fell from somewhere else and was lodged in the wires. It's a um...reverse tension? spring, 3/4 inch long. Pic here: www.SharonMurphy.info/spring.jpg


Ben,

Yes, I have eight balls the correct size. At the moment, there isn't a first ball to play anyway. The ball lifter doesn't seem to know it's supposed to. But even if I force a ball lift and activate the first rollover and the ball gate, there is no next ball either. The ball lifter doesn't know it's supposed to, so I am not sure it's actually starting a game so much as not being in tilt.

[Grojohn]

Check the ball through switches, also check the drain hole switch to
make sure it is not making connections

[Ben Myers]

>"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:cf062a7e-2f4b-4511-b000->4e2ce3...@googlegroups.com...

>Oh NO!
>I was rechecking the shutter motor switches and a spring fell out. I'm not sure if it went to that, or if it fell from >somewhere else and was lodged in the wires. It's a um...reverse tension? spring, 3/4 inch long. Pic here: >www.SharonMurphy.info/spring.jpg

I see nothing like that under the playfield of my Golden Gate. Make sure the lifter start relay
has a spring on it.

>Ben,
>Yes, I have eight balls the correct size. At the moment, there isn't a first ball to play anyway. The ball lifter doesn't seem >to know it's supposed to. But even if I force a ball lift and activate the first rollover and the ball gate, there is no next ball >either. The ball lifter doesn't know it's supposed to, so I am not sure it's actually starting a game so much as not being in >tilt.

Check the switches on the lift motor cams and make sure they aren't dirty or misadjusted.

In a normal start, the previous game is cleared, the shutter opens and the scores are set to
"4, 16, 75". When all eight balls reach the ball trough, the first ball is lifted to the playfield.
Additional coins or replays can be used at this point to activate features and increase the
scores. When the first ball is played, the shutter closes and the game begins .

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

Yeah, I know. It was working when I got it - for about a month. Been through shutter motor switches, ball lift switches, timer unit switches, trough switches and relay bank switches so far.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:3fe4161f-e548-44cf...@googlegroups.com...

> Yeah, I know. It was working when I got it - for about a month. Been through shutter motor switches, ball lift switches, >timer unit switches, trough switches and relay bank switches so far.

Check the switch under the ball lift arm. It's the one that closes when a ball rolls out of
the ball trough and is ready to be raised. Also, check the switch at the bottom of the shooting
trough and also make sure the lifter start relay under the playfield isn't stuck closed. Note that
the shooting trough switch is designed prevent a ball from being lifted when there is already one
waiting to be played.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

Checked all those too before, and again rechecked ALL the switches. No changes. Maybe it can't be fixed.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b826fc2a-dbbc-4442...@googlegroups.com...

> Checked all those too before, and again rechecked ALL the switches. No changes. Maybe it can't be fixed.

If it isn't a blown fuse, there must be an open switch or broken wire somewhere. My experience
is that the most common problems are with the ball trough switches or the lift motor cam switches.
I've also seen a shooting trough switch that was bent closed, preventing the lifter start relay from
de-energizing. The schematic for this machine is apparently available at
http://bingo.cdyn.com/machines/bally/circus_queen/ , so it's possible to start at the lift motor with
a continuity tester and work toward the fuse block . Also, please confirm that the machine resets
normally and that the lift motor does nothing when all eight balls reach the ball trough.

Ben

[Pinball Muggle]

Let’s try this.
With the power off - add a few credits by manually working the coil plunger on the replay meter (there are two – try both – one will add credits). Next turn the game on and the credit should reset to zero and tilt light should be on.

Next thing - Since we know the switches & wires are good on the 6 Relay Bank (page 140) let’s try activating a couple of them ( I say a couple because I can’t recall exactly which at the moment - but it will be one or the other). With a pencil, move the Armature Plate on the Start Relay (or Replay Reset Relay) so the switches move and let’s see it the game resets/starts.

Let us know.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Also, a word of caution: be careful not to touch the large wires on the replay reset relay. 120V goes through that set of switches.

Start relay is actuated each time a credit is played in ordinary circumstances.

[Sharon Murphy]

Thanks, Ben, I have a schematic and manual. The machine comes on in tilt and I flick the nickel mimic switch, it comes out of tilt, but does not lift a ball at all. At this point, I can make selections but a game never starts.

Steve: I was moving all those by hand before (oops) to see if they worked. The start relay moves and stays on for a second then goes off (I can't remember where it was when I started checking, it, whether I had to turn it off or on at first), and the other one in the 3rd spot...anti-cheat I think - comes on with the start or when the start goes off, and stays on. I haven't tried it with credits on the machine yet though. I think, when I turn on the start relay, it also activates a ummm (not in the basement now) red something or other coil on the back door.

[Pinball Muggle]

You said "anti-cheat I think - comes on with the start or when the start goes off, and stays on" - This is good but the shutter should open and the timer should reset then

Please check to see if the game works after EACH step below.

1) Confirm the switches on the Replay Meter - check to see if the game works

2) Go to the trip bank (the large vertical switch bank on the door ). Page 136. It has a metal cover with ID labels on it - … when you remove the cover be ready to catch the spacers that will fall from behind the two screw holes. Confirm switches E.B.#2 – sw L3 - check to see if the game works

3) Confirm Yellow Score Step Open At Top switches - check to see if the game works

4) Confirm the timer’s Open At Top switches - check to see if the game works

5) Confirm the timer resets properly. With the game unplugged, reset the timer manually by pressing the smaller coil plunger. The timer is shown on page 117 – notice the drawing shows the wire lugs around it. Use these lugs to orient yourself. The wipers are drawn as arrowed lines with a circled letter noted to ID them. Looking at the drawing note that wiper “B” rests on rivet 9 of the middle row. Also notice what it says about wiper B. !!! -

6) Also be sure the timer moves either way as it should (meaning not sluggish - stepping up/down FROM ANY POINT)

7) After the timer position and operation is confirmed (Tug ALL its wire leads just to be sure)

8) Manually step up the timer a few rivets - turn the game on and then see if the timer fires/resets when you manually activate the start relay.

9) If it’s still not working it’s time to go to the Control Unit (that’s the large horizontal cam operated switch bank there in the bottom of the head). See page 134. Of those switches we’ll need to check 3A - check to see if the game works - 5A - check to see if the game works - 14B - check to see if the game works & 4D ( 4D is a make/break, check the lower part - the very top switch of it may be bent up to never make contact – this will stop the game from tilting if the coin switch is held too long) - check to see if the game works

If you have CONFIRMED all these switches & other things in this whole thread are in good working order - your game should be working – If it’s not - then PM me - it’s telephone time I’m though typing.

[Ben Myers]

>"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ba37f3ea-4990-4c25-b18c->a002ea...@googlegroups.com...

>Thanks, Ben, I have a schematic and manual. The machine comes on in tilt and I flick the nickel mimic switch, it comes >out of tilt, but does not lift a ball at all. At this point, I can make selections but a game never starts.

>Steve: I was moving all those by hand before (oops) to see if they worked. The start relay moves and stays on for a >second then goes off (I can't remember where it was when I started checking, it, whether I had to turn it off or on at >first), and the other one in the 3rd spot...anti-cheat I think - comes on with the start or when the start goes off, and stays >on. I haven't tried it with credits on the machine yet though. I think, when I turn on the start relay, it also activates a >ummm (not in the basement now) red something or other coil on the back door.

Make sure the extra ball unit in the backbox is resetting completely. It's right under the magic screen
assembly. I've seen machines where the spring doesn't pull it all the way back.

According to the schematic, the only switches involved in lifting a ball for a new game are the eighth
ball trough switch, the switch under the ball lift arm, switch 2A on the shutter motor cam and a switch
on the lifter start relay, which must be de-energized. Note that the switch under the ball lift arm can be
bypassed by pressing the button under shooter rod.

Ben

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ba37f3ea-4990-4c25...@googlegroups.com...

>Thanks, Ben, I have a schematic and manual. The machine comes on in tilt and I flick the nickel mimic switch, it comes >out of tilt, but does not lift a ball at all. At this point, I can make selections but a game never starts.

>Steve: I was moving all those by hand before (oops) to see if they worked. The start relay moves and stays on for a >second then goes off (I can't remember where it was when I started checking, it, whether I had to turn it off or on at >first), and the other one in the 3rd spot...anti-cheat I think - comes on with the start or when the start goes off, and stays >on. I haven't tried it with credits on the machine yet though. I think, when I turn on the start relay, it also activates a >ummm (not in the basement now) red something or other coil on the back door.

[Sharon Murphy]

Progress I think!

I’m not exactly sure what I did, but this is what works now...(Steve, page 134 is the OTHER big switch bank and motor assembly, and I didn't see that at first, it took me a few minutes of poking around to realize that I couldn't find 5A because I was looking at the wrong picture! So I'm not sure if I adjusted something while looking at the wrong page or not)

I have green and blue selection buttons now, the red works (I hear something clicking anyway) but doesn’t light up. (bulbs are good though)

If it tilts, I can’t bring it out of tilt by turning it on and off, or pushing the nickel button. I have to manually reset the tilt relay in the bank on the back door.

The shutter closes after the second ball. The first ball lifts on it’s own.


With the playfield up, I can drop a ball in the 8th spot and it will continue to lift a ball as long as I continue to put a ball there.


Progress?? Or just different?


Ben: Isn't 14B on the Control Unit part of the ball lift sequence? I thought it went from 2A to 14B to the timer unit. The switch under the shooter doesn't always do it.

[Sharon Murphy]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:33:58 PM UTC-4, Pinball Muggle wrote:
>
> 1) Confirm the switches on the Replay Meter

I wasn't sure what you meant by replay meter. The game counter under the playfield, the green credits unit, the top relay in the bank of six, something else?


Sorry.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Hey, that's great! You're almost there, it sounds like. Check your tilt trip - sounds like you've got a switch touching something it shouldn't, which is preventing a reset on money/credit play.

If the shutter closes after the first ball is shot, that is proper behavior. If the second ball lofts, but no others lift, check your trough switches.

Those trough switches can be very flaky and require adjustment even if they _look_ OK. Ensure that they are OK.

The replay meter is the green credit meter.

[Sharon Murphy]

Nicholas,

I'm SO glad you think so! While I don't mind tinkering (4 hours gone today and I could swear I was only at it for 45 minutes) it's really frustrating when nothing comes of it.

The tilt trip is the one on the switch bank? It stays tripped once it has been, right now. It wasn't doing that until today though.

You would think the trough switches would be more stable, I still have the metal guard for them.


Boy, I really feel for the guys back in the 60s that had to repair these on routes and didn't have all you guys to help!

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Oh, the guide isn't installed? Yeah, that helps keep em separated, so its good to have it in there.

The tilt trip is one or two of the switch stacks on the back door, under that metal bar with all the labels. I've had the same things happen before, and it was a slightly misadjusted switch.

Trough switches take a beating from those little clips, and can easily get dirty or out of alignment. Just make sure that they are fully making and breaking. If ball #2 is not lifting, start with trough switch #6 <disclaimer - not looking at paperwork> (2nd from left).

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Oh, and I should mention that with the play field up, it should be lifting 5 balls quickly unless you're pressing the shooter lane switch to disable the lifter start relay.

Trough switches are really your main suspect for this, especially if the first ball lifts.

Another item to mention: Those trough switches have to be adjusted with balls in the trough. You cannot adjust with a finger as the travel is too much when compared to a ball.

[Sharon Murphy]

Okay, yes. The tilt trip is the thing that's tripping and staying that way. It's got a conglomerate of a switch, and then a single or double. I'm SO glad I have my 'lighted mirror on a telescoping pole" tool. So many of these are hard to get to.

No, the guide is in. It's been in and out so much the last couple days lol.


Didn't know about adjusting with the balls in place. It used to just pump all five out quicker than I could catch them. Are the trough switches okay to file? Or just clean them? What's a good gap - as small as possible? Whatever works? lol. Again with the hard to get to switches.

These are so awkward to get to. I have Bruce's pinball lifter....do you think it can take the weight of a bingo, especially since most of the weight is in the head? Or would I break the cabinet trying to do that...?

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:109874c3-2f46-4f83...@googlegroups.com...

>Progress I think!
>I’m not exactly sure what I did, but this is what works now...(Steve, page 134 is the OTHER big switch bank and motor >assembly, and I didn't see that at first, it took me a few minutes of poking around to realize that I couldn't find 5A >because I was looking at the wrong picture! So I'm not sure if I adjusted something while looking at the wrong page or >not)
>I have green and blue selection buttons now, the red works (I hear something clicking anyway) but doesn’t light up.
>(bulbs are good though)

Try wiggling the bulb. Corroded and bent bulb sockets are a common problem.

>If it tilts, I can’t bring it out of tilt by turning it on and off, or pushing the nickel button. I have to manually reset the tilt >relay in the bank on the back door.

When starting a game with the coin trip wire, be sure not to hold it down or the machine will probably go
straight to tilt. Cycling a machine on and off won't bring it out of tilt. In fact, it can activate the anti-cheat
system, which turns on the tilt light. Most machines will also start running the replay counter down to zero.

>The shutter closes after the second ball. The first ball lifts on it’s own.

If you mean after the second ball is raised, that's what is supposed to happen.

>With the playfield up, I can drop a ball in the 8th spot and it will continue to lift a ball as long as I continue to put a ball >there.
>Progress?? Or just different?

Progress, although my machines will dump the first five balls into the body if I do this.

>Ben: Isn't 14B on the Control Unit part of the ball lift sequence? I thought it went from 2A to 14B to the timer unit. The >switch under the shooter doesn't always do it.

You may be right, but that part of the circuit is apparently working now.
If the machine goes back to tilt when a new game is started, check to see that trip relays
on the backbox door are actually being reset.

Ben

[Nicholas Baldridge]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 1:40:45 AM UTC-4, Sharon Murphy wrote:
> Okay, yes. The tilt trip is the thing that's tripping and staying that way. It's got a conglomerate of a switch, and then a single or double. I'm SO glad I have my 'lighted mirror on a telescoping pole" tool. So many of these are hard to get to.
>

As Ben mentions, this can trip due to the coin switch being held for too long. There is a single switch on the top of one of the switch stacks that controls this that Steve mentioned. Be aware that this situation can exist - the switch can be bent up (like Steve said) to prevent this from ocurring. If you're not holding in the coin switch, then I still think that it's your tilt trip.

>
> Didn't know about adjusting with the balls in place. It used to just pump all five out quicker than I could catch them. Are the trough switches okay to file? Or just clean them? What's a good gap - as small as possible? Whatever works? lol. Again with the hard to get to switches.
>
>

Trough switches can be filed, I have done so on mine. The only contacts that I don't feel safe filing are burnished gold. Try cleaning first, though. The good gap would be one that allows for the ball to close (or open, depending on the switch) the switch as it travels through quickly, and stays closed (or open) when the ball sits on it. The trough switches should also make full contact (or not, as the case may be) when the balls are leaving the trough. As with any other EM switches, the best adjustment is one that allows for a wiping motion when closed, which helps keep the switch clean.

>
> These are so awkward to get to. I have Bruce's pinball lifter....do you think it can take the weight of a bingo, especially since most of the weight is in the head? Or would I break the cabinet trying to do that...?

I've seen Steve use a lifter on a screen game (not one of Bruce's) - it's certainly possible. I would try to get it back as far as possible and use a ratchet strap to secure it before lifting. Just be sensitive to any noises it makes.

I find it easiest just to kneel on the floor or sit on a short stool in front of the coin door, or to actually remove the guide, manually lift out all the balls, then unscrew the trough from both sides and flip it over to visually inspect. The latter usually doesn't help much as you again want to see what happens when a ball is going by.

[Sharon Murphy]

Thanks, I'll check those out tomorrow. Oh wait. We're going out of town for the weekend....but I might be able to get to them before we leave ;)

I hate that nickel switch! If I lean against it, it tilts. If I flick it too hard, it tilts. Once I get this working reliably, I want to put it back to nickels. Oh, I did notice last night that the nickel switch was a lot less sensitive than it used to be. Maybe I er 'fixed it'. I guess it got bent a bit.

I was thinking of doing what you said and removing the entire trough, but I was afraid it might be difficult to get back in. I can see how it wouldn't really help for adjusting, but it might make filing/cleaning easier.

Oh, emailed Bruce and he said what you said, just keep it far back and be gentle. But that it would be able to handle the weight of it.

[Sharon Murphy]

:(

I took every switch off the bank on the back door and cleaned them really well and checked the gaps and the solder. I thought I had it when I found one where two legs of the switch had accidentally been connected by solder. But no.

I took apart the ball lifter motor and cleaned it and put it back together, cleaned the switches and regapped them.

I took the ball trough off and cleaned, filed and re-gapped the switches. I checked the solder on the leads. I checked the gaps with a ball, not my fingers.

Nothing has changed. Well, balls aren't lifting again. :/

[Nicholas Baldridge]

If the trough switches are not correct, or the switch under the little pin at the bottom of the lifter are messed up, it will cause this. It took me a long time to get this right on mine. What happens when you close the last switch in the trough on the left with fingers or a piece of wood? Be sure to really understand which switches are supposed to be open/closed in the trough when it is full of balls. IIRC the NO/NC sequence is written with a single ball lifted.

My thought at this point is that if the other trough switches are fine (and be sure, now - these are by far the most temperamental switches I've ever messed with), the 1st one (with the pin right on top of the lifter) is busted somehow.

Keep going, you'll get it!

[Sharon Murphy]

Ohh I forgot to check that one. It's so hard to get to! I'll let you know later.


Thanks.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0bb84981-8684-470c...@googlegroups.com...

According the schematics at http://bingo.cdyn.com/machines/bally/circus_queen/ , eight switches
need to be closed to raise a ball at the start of a game: the first three ball trough switches, the
eighth ball trough switch, a switch on the ball lift relay under the playfield, switch 2A on the
shutter motor cam, the switch under the ball lift arm and a switch on the tilt relay. The button under
the shooting rod bypasses the switch under the ball lift arm. The eighth ball trough switch should be
tested directly, but on my Golden Gate, indexing the timer unit in the backbox once bypasses it and
brings up a ball, even if it the trough switch is held open. This apparently can be done with the
machine unplugged, provide you start a new game first. Plugging it back in activates the anti-cheat
system, but doesn't seem to interfere with the ball lift mechanism. The first three ball trough switches
can be tested by somehow forcing the first ball to the playfield, playing all five balls, pressing the
yellow button until the first two extra balls are awarded and making sure all seven balls are raised.
The other three switches can't be bypassed like this and need to be tested directly with an ohmeter
or test light. If all eight switches are working and there is no problem with transformer, fusebox or
ball lift motor, there must be a broken wire somewhere.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

Progress! I'm sure this time lol.

Ball raise when they should. I don't have to trick anything to make them raise.


Still having problems with the tilt relay not coming out of tilt on it's own.


AND

The magic screen won't go back to home position. The only things I could see that affect that are the coil right there at the screen.

Could the tilt and the screen be related? If I'm manually turning off the tilt coil, I'm not sure the game sees that as resetting the game or not.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Good!

Tilt problems would be either Anti-cheat or tilt trip, lastly that switch on the control unit that gets mad if you hold down the coin switch for too long.

That switch (4d) can be bent up with no ill effects. Anti-cheat and tilt are the typical clean n' gap. Check specifically tilt relay switches L1 and L3. I'd eye L3 as it is hard to get those SPDT switches in a relay bank correct.

Plumb bob tilt is ok? This is stupid, and has probably been asked before, but fuses ok?

Magic screen - could be tilt if misadjusted L1 in tilt relay. That prevents the screen from getting power. There are some other possibilities, but I'd look there first.

Side note: my game is a 20 hole (later bingo). The manual and schematic are much _much_ better on your game than mine. Yours actually tells you practical information!

[Sharon Murphy]

4D is on the big bank of switches and cams in the floor of the head? Definitely SPDTs are hard. It was one of those in the trough that had me stuck. Is it okay to leave the trough bottom guard off? I'm not taking a coin box in and out...well, yet.

The coin switch seems a little wonky. It used to be that you could just barely touch it and it would tilt, now I have to give it a good press. I'm hoping to convert it back to original though, so I suppose it doesn't bother me too much.


The plumb bob has been removed, and the other tilts bent open. The fuses were okay last I checked...but that wasn't today.


Wow, I can't imagine ANY bingo without a good schematic.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Well, I'm not a fan of leaving the guards off, but if nothing's hitting it, it should be fine.

4d is in the bottom of the head. The control unit in your manual.

No tilts? You'll tire of a bingo you can't tilt pretty quickly. :-) Check where you've defeated those circuits - something touching that shouldn't be could be causing your tilt issues now.

[Sharon Murphy]

Okay, I know where that is.

lol I might - but I can't tire of it if it doesn't play! I didn't do it, it was like that when I got it. Re-gapping those is for another day. But I've checked them a few times.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:448869b1-a0b9-4982...@googlegroups.com...

> Progress! I'm sure this time lol.
> Ball raise when they should. I don't have to trick anything to make them raise.
> Still having problems with the tilt relay not coming out of tilt on it's own.

Try using nickels or adding games to the replay counter and starting the machine with
the front buttons. Games can be added by starting a new game and using a long piece
of non-conductive wood or plastic to manually step up the counter. Be careful not to touch any live
circuits in the backbox. Be advised that, by design, unplugging the machine or turning it off activates
the anti-cheat system during power up, turning on the tilt light and resetting the replay counter to zero.

> AND
> The magic screen won't go back to home position. The only things I could see that affect that are the coil right there at the screen.

Open the backbox and make sure the drive chain is on the sprockets, including the drive sprocket on
the left. If it isn't, unplug the machine, manually move the magic screen to it's normal startup position,
then carefully turn the large sprocket until the disk assembly is in it's neutral or home position. On my
Golden Gate, this is done by lining up a red dot on the underside of the rotating disk with a small circle
on the fixed part of the assembly, but yours may be different. When both are in the correct positions,
install the chain and tension it with the idler sprocket. If the drive chain is intact, check the retaining
clips that hold the magic screen inside the track channel. Typically, these are two small pieces of
brass, covering holes in the track at the top and bottom right of the screen assembly, looking from
the rear. If these are left open, the pins that ride inside the track can come out, jam the mechanism and
prevent the screen from moving.

> Could the tilt and the screen be related? If I'm manually turning off the tilt coil, I'm not sure the game sees that as resetting the game or not.

On my machines, the tilt relay is one of a bank of relays that all get reset by a large solenoid
at the bottom of the backbox door. Please make sure this is actually happening when new game
is started.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

I can't manually move the screen. The track lock tabs are closed, the chain is where it should be. Powered off, I can't move the screen at all, either by trying to move the screen part or trying to turn the chain cogs.

I don't think the trip bank reset coil is energizing, I cant tell for sure though. BUT I did notice that pushing the coil plunger in by hand, the tilt relay doesn't reset; it springs back to tripped. Do I need a new spring for that? (I bought a kit of common pb springs, I should have one that fits).

[Pinball Muggle]

on the lower part of the screen - push in the coil plunger next to the
screen motor to move the screen.

look closely at the tilt trip relay plate and see if a tab is broken off
(compair to another next to it) the spring is likely good beacuse it
pulls it to a tripped state.


--
Pinball Muggle

Steve Smith
Richmond VA
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Sharon Murphy]

I can't move it by pushing in that coil plunger either. The coil seems to be working right, it lifts the little bar that frees the cog. I ran it through a game to where it says 'push buttons now' and I could hear the motor turn, so I had someone else push it so I could see what it was doing. The cog below the screen holder turned, but it wouldn't make the chain go around.

The tilt trip relay plate - the thing the large reset coil is on? The tabs on the coil *looked* okay, but I didn't check them with a DMM. Can I even? Are those coppper traces going to work with the DMM?

I checked the tilt relay, and it's good - I took it apart and put new springs on it - didn't help. And I checked all the gaps in the trip relay bank on the door again.

[Pinball Muggle]

play until "press buttons now" means the the trip bank reset and the
tilt trip did too.

the plate with the tab is back behind everything - look the between the
switches and the door - theres a vertical bar that resets all the
tripped coils - the tabs are easier to see as they are resting on that
bar.

Screen sounds jammed with something somewhere if the motor turns.


--
Pinball Muggle

[Sharon Murphy]

Ha! I found the screen problem. One of the legs/pins that holds a screen panel in is out of the track.

I don't know how to get it back IN though. It's a bottom one, and currently it's on a corner between the front panel wood. I can't move the screen manually more than a quarter inch or so, not enough to get a leg to the lock to start pulling it out.

How do I get to it?

[Sharon Murphy]

Oh, and the tabs are all fine. It reset because I manually "untripped" the relay.

[Sharon Murphy]

More progress!

I fixed the screen. I had to take off the two motors at the top and the top of the screen protector. All better.

BUT

The red rollover doesn't work.
The tilt relay doesn't reset: I have to manually reset it and activate the start relay.
The red selection button isn't working.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Red rollover is a trip relay. If misadjusted, it wouldn't trip. Do you mean the machine won't give you the red rollover, or you can't get it once given?

Tilt might be problems in the intentionally misadjusted tilts. Check your slams and such. If the trip is good and clean and adjusted, I would try putting the tilts back to stock and see what happens. Is there something metal shorting the plumb bob area?

[Sharon Murphy]

Oh sorry. I meant that it lights up on the backglass, but not in the playfield, and pushing the playfield button doesn't seem to do anything.

So that means the switch in the playfield is misadjusted?

[Nicholas Baldridge]

No, that means the trip relay is dirty or misadjusted. Otherwise, potential broken/shorted wire.

[Sharon Murphy]

Don't jinx me with the wire.

If the tilt relay is tripping okay but not resetting....is it possible that I have the screws too tight or something? I can push the plunger on the main coil to move the reset arm, but the tilt relay doesn't 'stick' in the reset position. If I reset it by hand, I guess I'm pushing it into place until it stays.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d93869e0-8661-46c1...@googlegroups.com...

>Don't jinx me with the wire.
>If the tilt relay is tripping okay but not resetting....is it possible that I have the screws too tight or something? I can push >the plunger on the main coil to move the reset arm, but the tilt relay doesn't 'stick' in the reset position. If I reset it by >hand, I guess I'm pushing it into place until it stays.

I've never had problems with the relay reset mechanism. I suggest you examine it closely for any
looseness or bent parts. Also, see if any other relays are failing to reset and compare the tab on the tilt
relay to the others and see if there is any difference in the angle of the bend. I guess you can adjust the tabs
by bending, but if it breaks off, repair would be difficult.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

No other relays failing in the bank. "the tab on the tilt relay" ...I think you mean this...here's a short video to show what I mean. Apologies in advance for the blurriness, the only thing I had left with battery life was my phone. There's no sound - it's not your speakers.

www.SharonMurphy.info/TripRelay.wmv

[Nicholas Baldridge]

OK, yes, that's the tab he's talking about - you've replaced the spring - are you sure it's the right tension? Looks like its pulling it closed.

If the machine was on, I might also suspect that the thing was tilting again (like a misadjusted plumb bob or slam switch), but at the very end of the video it looks like you got it to catch. Look at it compared with the ones on either side. Ensure that you've got the bar going in the right spot (looks like it from a glance), and check out that tab you were manipulating compared with the ones to the left and right. If it's not been removed or something, it's probably in the same spot.

If you have removed it, check to ensure that it's aligned properly (again, looks like it).

Do you know the screw sleeves that most of the switch stacks have? Do you think maybe one is missing or broken on the tilt causing it to conduct where it shouldn't on the inside (a short)? Unlikely, but maybe possible, especially if you've physically removed those stacks.

... All just guesses, though!

I think you should focus on the tilt issue, then move on to the others. One thing at a time. :-)

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e2e88b9a-9664-4cb3...@googlegroups.com...

>No other relays failing in the bank. "the tab on the tilt relay" ...I think you mean this...here's a short video to show what I >mean. Apologies in advance for the blurriness, the only thing I had left with battery life was my phone. There's no sound >- it's not your speakers.
>www.SharonMurphy.info/TripRelay.wmv

See if the tab you are resetting has fallen out of the mounting plate. During
assembly, these pieces of metal are inserted into slots in the plate and the
protrusions are twisted to hold the part in place. Another possibility is that
the relay coil or other tilt relay part was replaced at some point and the unit
was reassembled improperly. There is apparently something different about
the tilt relay that prevents it from being reset by the normal movement of the
bar on the reset mechanism.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

I can't say the spring is the exact right tension, there are a couple different types in there. But it's doing the same thing after I replaced it that it was before - changing the spring didn't change anything.

The machine was off when I took the video. The tab on the tilt relay looks the same as the other ones, even to the amount it's bent at the tips.

I'll check the screw sleeves, I know I had a problem with them wanting to come all apart whenever I'd take a stack off, so I've gotten in the habit of taping them together with electrical tape around the stack when I take it off.

I'm about ready to just wrap a wad of tape or something around the bar in that one spot to make it press harder on that relay lol.

[Pinball Muggle]

Sharon Murphy;2085689 Wrote:
>
>
> I'm about ready to just wrap a wad of tape or something around the bar
> in that one spot to make it press harder on that relay lol.

bend the tab to apply more throw

[thecompu]

On Friday, June 28, 2013 12:28:52 PM UTC-5, Sharon Murphy wrote:

> The machine was off when I took the video. The tab on the tilt relay looks the same as the other ones, even to the amount it's bent at the tips.

As a simple lurker who is learning about maintaining pinball machines, I want to encourage you, Sharon, to post more videos. I realize it's not always possible but it sure helped with some of the things you were explaining.

And for what it's worth: I've been here since the beginning and I'm pulling for ya!

[Sharon Murphy]

If there's a way to edit my post instead of delete and redo it, I'd like to know :P


thecompu: Thank you for the encouragement! The names of things are possibly the hardest part to learning this :) Definitely say something if you want a video of something; sometimes I feel like I only know what I mean because they've told me so and if I were to just happen upon this thread, it wouldn't make any sense at all. I'm glad other people are learning with me :)

Steve: Sometimes, I begin to wonder if I know what I'm talking about. By 'tab' you mean the tongue of the brass part that goes into the plain metal plate? (cause that's what I've been calling a tab lol) I'm not sure my pliers will bend that, they're only jewelry making pliers. My good ones broke a few days ago. Maybe I have an extra set around. I also have to bend the metal plates that have the little tabs bent over the edge to lock the screen in the track. They both bent in the middle so the legs of the screen could easily slip out even with the tabs for that in place. Not sure how that happened.

Way too many TABS in this lol.

[Sharon Murphy]

Okay, no.

The tab you meant was the one the big roller bar presses on. Sometimes, I have to see it and manually move the assembly to see what you mean :)

So I did bend that, and now it resets when the main coil is pressed.

BUT

I don't know what I did lol. The red, green and blue buttons don't work. And I still have to manually reset the start relay.

[Sharon Murphy]

So...no video, but here's a photo showing which was the right tab in that. The two red circled ones were what I thought Steve meant until I got downstairs and looked at it. Then it was obvious he meant the green circled one. (now watch him get on here and tell me it was none of those lol)And apparently, brass and not brass don't matter much, I have some of each for both parts.

www.SharonMurphy.info/RightTab.jpg

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:41c25980-8257-44ff...@googlegroups.com...

You can't start a game with the front buttons when the replay counter is at zero.

Ben

[Pinball Muggle]

Location on the schematic - row A & column 4-1/2 you will see the
start relay noted. The first two switches you come to are&#8230; (going
up the left side) &#8220;Trip Relay&#8221;( which you just redid so it
should be good) & (to the right side) &#8220;Search Wiper Cam sw
20B&#8221;. This is NOT shown in the manual but IS described on page
135. Its real life location is on the end of the control unit (players
left). There is a cam on that end and that operates the stack it's in.
The stack slides back and forth for alignment when at rest. Confirm them
&#8211; test it - if no worky - then follow that circuit UP &#8230;
checking each noted switch as you go - see if the game will start each
time you do something to it.

[Sharon Murphy]

Okay….

Going up the schematic from row A column 4 ½, I checked the Trip Relay, the Search Wiper Cam switch 20B (so glad you knew what that one was, it was driving me nuts not being able to figure that out), Replay Restart Relay, Replay Register zero switch, yellow button #2 (#2? If it means the yellow button on the front, there’s just one switch stack for it…or does #2 mean something else?) the Before 5th selector lockout relay, the anti-cheat relay, the replay register zero switch (again? Why is it on the schematic twice?) and CU cam #3A (I think – it’s the one on the far right of the ball lifter?)


Nothing fixed it entirely. After the ‘bend the tab so the bar hits it’ suggestion, I started using the big reset coil at the bottom to move the bar and “untrip” everything. And about what I thought – half of them at least, weren't resetting with that. So I bent a lot of tabs. And I had to redo a lot of switches after that too.

When it’s a SPDT switch, how do I know which way it’s supposed to go when the relay is tripped or not tripped? My best guess might not be good enough.

This issue has something to do with checking/adjusting the switches up the row from A/4 ½, I’m guessing….the balls lift and the shutter closes when it should, but it doesn't recognize when the tabs are pressed in in the holes on the playfield.


SO…..

Right now, I can bring it out of tilt by manually resetting the tilt relay and the start relay. If I don’t reset the start relay, it will still come out of tilt, but it doesn't start a new game, it just continues from where it was. The ball lift and the shutter work as they should. The blue and green buttons work, and the red one sort of. It seems to make the appropriate selections, but the lights never light up. The yellow one isn't working now either, but that might be because it doesn't realize when it’s at the end of a game. The “press buttons now” thing isn't coming on, again, probably because it doesn't know where it is in a game. It doesn't recognize when there is a ball sitting in a hole. Any hole.

It seems to me that there is some issue with it not actually starting a new game, I’m just sort of walking it through the steps or something.

What next guys? I’m in a good mood, bring it on lol.

[Pinball Muggle]

By tracing out that circuit you are trying to get the start relay to
activate when the red button is pressed then the coin switch is hit.

CU means control unit.

To see the lights behind the numbers on the bingo card the anti-cheat
relay must be on/pulled in.

Careful on adjusting to many things - the trouble is still likely either
dirt or a broken switch blade.

Confirm the switches behind the buttons. test

Confirm CU switches.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

>yellow button #2
This is the second switch in the yellow button stack.

>the replay register zero switch (again? Why is it on the schematic twice?)

I'd have to look at the schem. Not sure, but it might be another branch.

> and CU cam #3A (I think – it’s the one on the far right of the ball lifter?)

This is on the Control Unit in the bottom of the head. Starting from the motor on the left (when looking from the back, 3A would be the third stack going from left to right, the first switch).

> And I had to redo a lot of switches after that too.

These switches are easy to misalign which will cause all sorts of havok with features. Be careful.

>
> When it’s a SPDT switch, how do I know which way it’s supposed to go when the relay is tripped or not tripped? My best guess might not be good enough.
>

The schem will show the 'normal' position, right when the new game is started. When in doubt, also check the manual. Sometimes it will helpfully only say 'T'. In those instances where you're not sure what the schem is showing and the manual shows nothing, you have to use an 'educated guess'. When the trip bank is in the up position, a SPDT is probably supposed to be touching the top contact. When tripped, it should be hitting the bottom one. But use your judgement.

>
> This issue has something to do with checking/adjusting the switches up the row from A/4 ½, I’m guessing….the balls lift and the shutter closes when it should, but it doesn't recognize when the tabs are pressed in in the holes on the playfield.
>

Timing or Anti-Cheat. Check Anti-Cheat first. That will prevent coming out of tilt and the numbers from showing on the backglass.

>
> Right now, I can bring it out of tilt by manually resetting the tilt relay and the start relay. If I don’t reset the start relay, it will still come out of tilt, but it doesn't start a new game, it just continues from where it was.

This is normal operation.

> The ball lift and the shutter work as they should. The blue and green buttons work, and the red one sort of. It seems to make the appropriate selections, but the lights never light up.

Having just had an issue with this on mine, it was either
a) the red button switches (those are damned difficult to set correctly, even when removed from the game).
b) The switches right to the right of the spotting disc
c) The spotting disc itself (check the wires)
d) The anti-cheat relay
e) The play features and play scores relays. Check your manual and look for the correct wire colors and adjust appropriately. Check for pitting.

>The yellow one isn't working now either, but that might be because it doesn't >realize when it’s at the end of a game. The “press buttons now” thing isn't >coming on, again, probably because it doesn't know where it is in a game.

You've hit the nail on the head. This is classic timing issues. The timer should be stepping up with each ball lifted. You'll hear the trips for the various features (before 4th, before 5th, etc) as each is shot through the gate.

I suspect trough switches other than the extreme ends. Again, those are very hard to adjust properly.

It >doesn't recognize when there is a ball sitting in a hole. Any hole.
>
>
> It seems to me that there is some issue with it not actually starting a new game, I’m just sort of walking it through the steps or something.
>

Anti-cheat again.

>
>
> What next guys? I’m in a good mood, bring it on lol.

Check _all_ of the above, making sure to test after each adjustment.

[Sharon Murphy]

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:04:02 PM UTC-4, Nicholas Baldridge wrote:
> Check _all_ of the above, making sure to test after each adjustment.

Wow, I have my work cut out for me tomorrow :D

Is there an easier way besides 'power off, adjust, power on, test'? I know it's not that far to walk from one end of the machine to the other, but after 6 or 8 times, when you are down on the ground to get to the lower switches, or try to see them without removing the stack, it gets hard to move like that lol.


I've been printing out the test steps from here, and also from Phil, I am going to have a book sized amount by the time we're done! Actually, I might go back and put things in better order, and print it out at the end so it makes sense from looking at it in a binder.

Bonus - I'm learning to read a schematic a LOT better!

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Not really. If you have a friend, you can actually unhook some retaining brackets and lay the back door on a flat surface near the machine (two sawhorses work well).

Newer games also have warnings about adjusting switches with the power on - though this is more to prevent a higher potential from frying your chips. In this case, you don't want to provide current either through you, depending on what you're holding and adjusting, or through a circuit that doesn't need it by bridging with your switch adjuster. More than your game can be hurt in that way.

Bingos are an adventure, that's for sure! Reading the schematic will help you with all your other machines, too. I do think that Bally intentionally made portions difficult to follow (but of course I have no proof).

[Sharon Murphy]

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:50:10 PM UTC-4, Nicholas Baldridge wrote:
> Not really. If you have a friend, you can actually unhook some retaining brackets and lay the back door on a flat surface near the machine (two sawhorses work well). With three working pins and three in 'repair room' now, we had to move the basement fridge to the 'repair room' and I barely have room to walk around them now, much less lay anything out next to the pin :(

> Newer games also have warnings about adjusting switches with the power on

Well, these too...it's called SPARKS! lol. Otherwise known as don't poke metal contacts with metal things.

> Bingos are an adventure, that's for sure!

Understatement of the day!

>Reading the schematic will help you with all your other machines, too. I do think that Bally intentionally made portions difficult to follow (but of course I have no proof).

I think I agree there.

What helps me most is people telling me to 'check this, and then that' and why. After several days off, when I come back to it and I know what I'm looking at, I feel like I'm passing this class :D

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b5d08ecf-5650-43bb...@googlegroups.com...

>Okay….
>Going up the schematic from row A column 4 ½, I checked the Trip Relay, the Search Wiper Cam switch 20B (so glad >you knew what that one was, it was driving me nuts not being able to figure that out), Replay Restart Relay, Replay >Register zero switch, yellow button #2 (#2? If it means the yellow button on the front, there’s just one switch stack for >it…or does #2 mean something else?) the Before 5th selector lockout relay, the anti-cheat relay, the replay register zero >switch (again? Why is it on the schematic twice?) and CU cam #3A (I think – it’s the one on the far right of the ball >lifter?) Nothing fixed it entirely. After the ‘bend the tab so the bar hits it’ suggestion, I started using the big reset coil at >the bottom to move the bar and “untrip” everything. And about what I thought – half of them at least, weren't resetting >with that. So I bent a lot of tabs. And I had to redo a lot of switches after that too.

I suggest you test the trip relay reset mechanism by starting a new game. The reset coil probably generates
more force than most people can apply by hand.

>When it’s a SPDT switch, how do I know which way it’s supposed to go when the relay is tripped or not tripped? My >best guess might not be good enough.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Typically with a single-pole, double-throw leaf switch, one set is
closed when the relay is energized and the other is closed when de-energized. Which is which is
usually obvious, based on the movement of the leaf in the middle.

>This issue has something to do with checking/adjusting the switches up the row from A/4 ½, I’m guessing….the balls lift >and the shutter closes when it should, but it doesn't recognize when the tabs are pressed in in the holes on the playfield.

If you are saying that the numbers on the screen fail to light, please confirm that you are starting a new game and not
just resetting the tilt relay.

>SO…..
>Right now, I can bring it out of tilt by manually resetting the tilt relay and the start relay. If I don’t reset the start relay, it >will still come out of tilt, but it doesn't start a new game, it just continues from where it was.

This is normal, but there is typically no reason to reset the tilt relay manually when starting a new game with the start relay.

>The ball lift and the shutter work as they should. The blue and green buttons work, and the red one sort of. It seems to >make the appropriate selections, but the lights never light up.

After a new game is started, the red, yellow and green scores are set to "4, 16, 75". At this point, additional coins
or replays can be used to increase the scores and activate features, like the magic screen.

>The yellow one isn't working now either, but that might be because it doesn't realize when it’s at the end of a game.

The yellow button should work after the fifth ball is played, assuming none of the previous four have been returned.

>The “press buttons now” thing isn't coming on, again, probably because it doesn't know where it is in a game.

This light only works when you have the OK or the magic screen, and then only for one ball.

>It doesn't recognize when there is a ball sitting in a hole. Any hole.

Please confirm that you are starting a new game, not just turning the machine on or untilting a previous game.

>It seems to me that there is some issue with it not actually starting a new game, I’m just sort of walking it through the >steps or something.
>What next guys? I’m in a good mood, bring it on lol.

Pressing the start relay when the machine is first turned on should reset everything, including the tilt relay, and
start a new game. The red, yellow and green scores should light at "4, 16, 75". Shooting the first ball should
cause the shutter to close. Shooting four more should allow you to use the yellow button to play for extra balls.
Balls that fall in a hole with the shutter closed should light the corresponding number on the screen. Three or
more lit numbers in a row on the screen connected by a color stripe is a winner. Pressing the "R" button collects
the winnings based on the color and whether it is three, four or five in a line.

Ben

[Sharon Murphy]

"After a new game is started, the red, yellow and green scores are set to "4, 16, 75". At this point, additional coins or replays can be used to increase the scores and activate features, like the magic screen."

Yes. New game, Push a colored button, Flick coin switch, repeat until you are happy with it.

The yellow button should work after the fifth ball is played, assuming none of the previous four have been returned. Should, but isn't.

On my game, the “press buttons now” light only comes up when you've activated the yellow or red rollover ad shot the appropriate number of balls, selected A, B, C, etc or OK.

Yes, I am starting a new game, not just turning the machine on or untilting a previous game.


Yes: pressing the start relay resets and starts.

The red yellow and green scores start at the beginning if I start a new game.

The first ball trips the ball gate switch, causing the second ball to lift, which causes the shutter to close. Yes.

Shooting four more should allow me to use the yellow button, yes. But it doesn't right now.

Pressing the "R" button collects the winnings..." That's not working right now. As I said before, likely because it's not recognizing that it is in a game.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0f89f6b4-c412-4087...@googlegroups.com...

It sounds like the "Before 4th selector lock relay" on the relay bank is failing to trip. This is supposed to
happen when the fourth ball is played and can be caused by a misadjusted trough switch #4. Also, please
note that "Press Buttons Now" is essentially a warning that the magic screen will stop working when the
next ball is played, which is why it doesn't flash continuously during the game.

Ben

[CactusJack]

Ben Myers;2086489 Wrote:
> "Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:

> >When it’s a SPDT switch, how do I know which way it’s supposed to go
> when the relay is tripped or not tripped? My >best guess might not be
> good enough.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Typically with a single-pole,
> double-throw leaf switch, one set is
> closed when the relay is energized and the other is closed when
> de-energized. Which is which is
> usually obvious, based on the movement of the leaf in the middle.

> [color=blue]
>

I am not sure that it applies in this case but there is also something
in Relay logic known as "Make before Break" and "Break before Make". In
some timing critical circuits, a DPST leaf switch may need to close on
the Normally open side BEFORE it opens on the normally closed side.

RB


--
CactusJack

[Sharon Murphy]

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 11:54:50 AM UTC-4, Ben Myers wrote:
>It sounds like the "Before 4th selector lock relay" on the relay bank is failing to trip. This is supposed to happen when the fourth ball is played and can be caused by a misadjusted trough switch #4. Also, please note that "Press Buttons Now" is essentially a warning that the magic screen will stop working when the next ball is played, which is why it doesn't flash continuously during the game.
Ben

It could very well be the 4th selector lock, I've been messing with the switches in that bank a lot and could have easily misaligned one. It was going into the "press buttons now" and wouldn't go out of it no matter if you fired the last ball or not. Now, it's not getting there lol. Third time's a charm, right?

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 12:57:11 PM UTC-4, Reinhard wrote:

> I am not sure that it applies in this case but there is also something in Relay logic known as "Make before Break" and "Break before Make". In some timing critical circuits, a DPST leaf switch may need to close on the Normally open side BEFORE it opens on the normally closed side.
> RB

Thanks, I was wondering about that. I've seen those terms in either the manual or schematic but I guess I didn't really get that it meant that. I've got most of them set to open and close, as the case may be, together when a stack changes state.

[Sharon Murphy]

I am almost positive it says so somewhere and I missed it....what is the correct gaps for the timer unit?

Right now, I have it at:

After pushing reset: A-open, B-open, C-open, D-closed, E-closed. Steps 1-7: A-Closed, B-open, C-open, D-closed, E-closed. Step 8: A-closed, B-closed, C-closed, D-open, E-open.

I can see at least three other ways it could go, though.

[Ben Myers]

"Sharon Murphy" <buddle...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:b97c22ad-59ed-4d59...@googlegroups.com...

>On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 11:54:50 AM UTC-4, Ben Myers wrote:
>It sounds like the "Before 4th selector lock relay" on the relay bank is failing to trip. This is supposed to happen when >the fourth ball is played and can be caused by a misadjusted trough switch #4. Also, please note that "Press Buttons >Now" is essentially a warning that the magic screen will stop working when the next ball is played, which is why it doesn't >flash continuously during the game.
>Ben

>It could very well be the 4th selector lock, I've been messing with the switches in that bank a lot and could have easily >misaligned one. It was going into the "press buttons now" and wouldn't go out of it no matter if you fired the last ball or >not. Now, it's not getting there lol. Third time's a charm, right?

If you are saying that the relay is not being tripped, I stilll recommend that you double-check the fourth
ball trough switch. This switch must be closed when the fourth ball is played to allow the switch on the
ball lift cam to trip the "Before 4th selector lock" relay when the fifth ball is raised. Unless this relay trips,
the machine will never progress to the point where you can record winnings and play for extra balls.

Ben


.

[Sharon Murphy]

Hm. The balls lift to the 5th ball good now....I'm afraid to mess it up again!


I'll have a careful look at it though.

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Trough switches are probably the culprit - if the timer steps up the rest of the time.

[Sharon Murphy]

So I checked out the trough switches and almost all of them were wonky again. How does that happen? Fixed that, checked the trip relay and made some adjustments there again, took EVERY switch stack off the control unit and cleaned and gapped it, and things seemed to be working better.

Pressed the start relay to check it out from a fresh new started game, and the fiber thing BROKE OFF.

Luckily, I kept everything I found in the cabinet when I got it, so I had an extra. I was on the last step - putting the assembly back onto the bracket when I pressed against the anti-cheat relay a bit and THAT ONE broke off. I don't have two extras.

Where do you get those?

ALSO; noticed that the rubber plug things that hold the bracket off the wood of the front seem to have shrunk over time and the bracket sort of leans back and forth. It might even be enough to short the coils or wires against the light brackets.

Where can I get fresh rubber things for that?

[Nicholas Baldridge]

Trough switches can go wonky pretty easily. They are relatively unprotected and require precise gapping.

Be careful with those fiber things - I don't know of a resource for those. You mean the thing that allows all the switches to move when the coil pulls, right? Be super careful with the rest.

Rubber spacers - you could probably get a plastic bushing that would have similar effect at the hardware store, maybe?