Back Box cooling fan
Pinball_king
back box as the later games got more hi-tech.
Would the circuitry it the back box be better protected if it is
running cooler.
PC’s have them why not pinballs?
TheKorn
03ae-4f19-bce...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
Probably because of the same reasons why they cause problems in PCs -- they
fail. Look at pin2k; I'd say the vast majority of the failures come from
when the CPU fan up and dies on you and nobody notices.
WMS games have a reasonable amount of convection cooling going on without a
fan. What problems are caused by heat (GI cooking itself) wouldn't have
been solved by adding a fan (IMHO).
--
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Toolguy
wrote:
I have put them in my machines when they are going to be on all day.
I take old PC fans and use them. It really helps and I agree, they
are not a bad idea. I have never had one fail in any PC I have owned,
in fact, they usually outlast the PC.
CornCob
Looking at STTNG its got a kind of grill or vent at the top of the
back box, perhaps you could fit small fans to this area.
Everyone else seems to be modding away happily, so long as it isn't
permanent, I shouldn't have thought it would be a problem. Will it
work? couldn't say...
Ping
flyman
through the vent holes. Seemed to do the job.
AFM_TZ
I have one on my TZ. I had a seasoned Pinball guy who stopped by and
was amazed at that mod - not very common. I think pinball pro did them
- maybe they still do?
How does it work? I dont know as the game is not for extended periods.
But seems to kick on in intervals (not always on). Must be doing
something i would say. It actually looks original.
flyman
hooked up to a board wired to 5 or 6 volts. Low noise & blew alittle
warm air in the basement, couldn`t tell it was even going. The machine
found a new home so someone else is enjoying it now.
Hugh
I've found that the best way to reduce heat in the head is to replace
all of the bulbs with LEDs. It makes a huge difference in heat, that
is if you like LEDs.
Hugh
TheKorn
b6e7-bbd...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> I have put them in my machines when they are going to be on all day.
> I take old PC fans and use them. It really helps and I agree, they
> are not a bad idea. I have never had one fail in any PC I have owned,
> in fact, they usually outlast the PC.
That's 100% opposite of what my experience has been. I've had PCs where
I've replaced multiple fans, sometimes the same fan multiple times.
Then again, I run my PCs harder than most people, often times they run 24/7
until they can't anymore (i.e. a fan breaks!).
I usually give a fan about 2 to 3 years before I start expecting it to
fail.
John Bigbooty
wrote:
>Pinball_king <black_kni...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in news:63e8f9ae-
>03ae-4f19-bce...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I wonder why Bally and Williams didn�t put cooling fans inside the
>> back box as the later games got more hi-tech.
>> Would the circuitry it the back box be better protected if it is
>> running cooler.
>> PC�s have them why not pinballs?
>
Maybe they didn't add the fans because they didn't want the pins to
last a long time. They were more interested in selling a new pin than
keeping old pins on route.
Mark
Atlanta GA
erickit
> Pinball_king <black_knight_200...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in news:63e8f9ae-
> 03ae-4f19-bce5-d84ab581f...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
I bought one when I first got into the hobby, all it did was suck
dust into the game.
Bad waddie. :(
Eric
Toolguy
> Toolguy <rochestersh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:1c208265-5382-447c-
> b6e7-bbd34b641...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
Yeah some of my fans are years old, pulled right from my old PC's!
Maybe they were built better year ago, dunno.
BTW, nice job on the G&R machine at Expo!
TheKorn
news:0952fa88-7a43-4886...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com:
> Yeah some of my fans are years old, pulled right from my old PC's!
> Maybe they were built better year ago, dunno.
Oh, absolutely! If I pull a fan off an old early 90s pc it'll more than
likely run forever...
...but then again, that's a 10-20 year old fan at this point. :)
> BTW, nice job on the G&R machine at Expo!
Thanks!
David Gersic
> I wonder why Bally and Williams didn?t put cooling fans inside the
> back box as the later games got more hi-tech.
They suck in dust and debris. They're also one more thing that
can (and will) fail. A system design with minimized paths to
failure is going to be more reliable in the long run. And fans
cost money.
> Would the circuitry it the back box be better protected if it is
> running cooler.
Not necessarily. A system needs to remain below the rated temp
of the components, with a safety margin, but there's no benefit
to being much cooler than that. Pin design relies on convection
cooling, which is sufficient for the heat produced by the
components used.
> PC?s have them why not pinballs?
PCs are very poorly designed when it comes to system cooling. They
have little possibility of convection cooling, and components that
generate huge ammounts of heat. It's possible to make changes to
PC design to eliminate the fans, and in many cases this is
desirable. Google for "silent pc" for examples.
--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| So to my old headmaster, and to anyone who cares ... |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |
Lloyd Olson
clean ( bottom of cabinet, back of cabinet ) and they'll be fine.
You blow dust all over the boards, you'll make the boards hotter, defeats
the purpose of cooling fan. LTG :)
"Pinball_king" <black_kni...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:63e8f9ae-03ae-4f19...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
they would have lessened air flow to cook the boards quicker. LTG :)
"John Bigbooty" <BOGUSevile...@bellsouth.netBOGUS> wrote in message
news:p1r5f5t6f1d3l1v0q...@4ax.com...
Fred Kemper
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Pinball_king" <black_kni...@yahoo.com.au> wrote
kreed
> Toolguy <rochestersh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:1c208265-5382-447c-
> b6e7-bbd34b641...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I take old PC fans and use them. It really helps and I agree, they
> > are not a bad idea. I have never had one fail in any PC I have owned,
> > in fact, they usually outlast the PC.
>
> That's 100% opposite of what my experience has been. I've had PCs where
> I've replaced multiple fans, sometimes the same fan multiple times.
>
> Then again, I run my PCs harder than most people, often times they run 24/7
> until they can't anymore (i.e. a fan breaks!).
>
> I usually give a fan about 2 to 3 years before I start expecting it to
> fail.
>
> --
> Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
> web or on DVD?
>
> http://www.webwidevideo.com/
Typical cheap PC fans a few years ago were awful for failing, the
newer ones (since 2005-6) seem to be better.
I have a quantity of 120mm panasonic "panaflo brushless" 12vdc fans
that I bought in 1987, these have been used continuously in our sited
video games since then - that run every day for most of the day. We
are in a hot climate and in many places we needed them.
Out of about 20 of them, we have never had a failure, and none are
noisy.
As video games have been coming in from location in recent years, I re-
used a couple of these fans in our desktop PC's with no troubles.
Cheap mains powered fans we bought then, tended to only work a couple
of years, get noisier and seize up.
If you are willing to pay the money for a quality fan, then long lives
are achievable.
We didn't ever need to use fans in pinball machines, unlike monitor
chassis that dont like overheating,
the IC's etc used in pinball games dont use that much power, and seem
happy to run at higher temperatures without problems. You cannot
compare pinball electronics for heat with inefficient power hungry
devices like home PC CPUS' and other IC's used in them.
Fans would inevitably suck dirt into pinballs, as well as smoke from
cigarettes that were rested on the front glass - unless you had an
excellent seal there. Dirt is not as much of a problem with video
games, is easy enough to brush and vacuum off, but it is a big
problem in pinballs that have lots of moving parts to gum up, as well
as making playfields filthy. You cant just brush and vacuum them
clean
Gottlieb/premier games made in the 1990s don't generate much heat from
the electronics, as they use highly efficient HC CMOS IC technology
and switching of coils etc is done by more efficient FETS rather than
transistors.
kreed
pinball.com> wrote:
if you look at the surface temperature of a modern CPU (pentium) you
will find that many of them
DISSIPATE many time more wattage (as heat) per square inch than the
soleplate of a typical 1200w domestic steam iron. This is why such
large heatsinks, and fans are necessary.
Except for the small amounts of energy that may come out a PC to power
USB devices, keyboards etc, when you think about it, 99% of all
electrical energy that goes into a computer system comes out as heat.
If you are running a PC that is drawing (say) 300w from the mains, its
basically dissipating close to 300w in heat from the system. Try
shoving 3 x 100w light bulbs (not CFL) in a PC case and see how hot it
gets.
IF you are running very fast and or multiple power inefficient
processors that may draw 180w+, plus several high end video cards,
several hard drives, etc etc, and need one of these newer 800-1000w
power supplies, whatever it is drawing from the mains, is about how
much heat is being produced inside that case.
if its 1000w, think of a couple of household toasters in that PC case
as to how much heat is being generated in there and how much airflow
(fan power) is needed to move it - and how much it can heat up your
room too.
unless you are in a cold climate, you might have to look at exhausting
that hot air to outside the building.
A pinball processor and electronic control system is absolutely
nothing by comparison. Just as a rough guesstimate - off the top of my
head, I doubt that it would draw more than 50w.
PT
preventing failures, but only if done correctly.
- Fan systems should draw air IN to the lower cabinet and OUT of the
backbox just the same as the convective flow. Even if there is only
one fan, the box should cover all of the holes in the backbox - just
like the Pinball Pro unit. You don't want an "air short circuit"
where air is drawn in one backbox hole and right back out the other.
- Fans will not create dust/particle problems when done properly. Do
not use more than 50 cfm total airflow - even 25-30 cfm is plenty.
Most importantly, don't use fans in a location where people smoke.
The smoke coats the boards with sticky resins and then dust sticks to
the boards.
- A simple low flow air system in my TZ dropped the backbox
temperature 40 degrees during heavy use. There is no way that amount
of cooling doesn't increase the reliability of the electronics. Heat
at the silicon junctions causes failures. Not to mention the
expansion and contracting from heating and cooling causing mechanical
failures in solder joints for devices like bridge rectifiers and
caps...
- My AFM has had cooling fans for 6 years now. The boards are clean
enough to eat off of and I have not had any board failures.
All of this said...I don't put cooling fans on my pins any more. I've
gotten lazy and it really doesn't make *that* big of a difference.
It's not like they are PCs and I'm trying to overclock them.
John
On Nov 5, 5:47 am, Pinball_king <black_knight_200...@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
> I wonder why Bally and Williams didn’t put coolingfansinside the
frenchy
> I had a game from an op that had 2 small fans blowing out the hot air
> through the vent holes. Seemed to do the job.>>
I wouldn't bother doing it myself as I believe convection cooling is
perfectly fine for even 90s and 2000's pins, but if I added a fan or
two for home use/peace of mind, I would use some filter material to
keep from pulling dust into the game. Start chugging all that dirty
air thru the backbox and some of it's bound to get to the boards and
even to the playfield. I don't realy see the need for it though,
anymore than say for the average transistorized, crt television set.
I don't think any non-P2K pins have any pc-type cpu chips that need
anything more than convection cooling, and pinball heads have a ton of
space and lots of venting compared to a cramped, plastic pc 'box'.