Tech: Black Hole
Bob Shingledecker
not fire. Checked the diode and it's OK, the fuse is good, swapped
driver boards but can't get it to fire. When the ball goes downstairs
the lock lets it go, it rolls into the upkicker switch and the
downstairs lights go off but the solenoid won't fire. The transistor
is good too. Any ideas?
thanks,
Bob
RealDeal AS
"Bob Shingledecker" <bsh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b5872526.01081...@posting.google.com...
open winding in the coil? Check for continuity between the coil and the
driver board. Also, if you have a logic probe, (available from radio shack
$15 bucks) place it on the transistor that fires the coil and drop a ball in
the upkicker.. If you get a pulse at the transistor and it still doesn't
fire the coil, you have a wiring problem or it is an open coil.
Steve Charland
You did check the fuse with a meter and not trust what you see, right?
Since you say that the hole kicker worked, we can eliminate clip A1J4-D as
the cause since both the upkicker and hole kicker use this line. Any
playfield lights not working? If so, this would indicate that LD4 isn't
making the trip from the CPU to the driver board, check A1J4-4. Check for
a bad solder connection at the coil too, (as was posted by another) there
could be a bad wrap on the solder lug. Testing this with a meter can fool
you. Unplug A9J8-2 and check the male/female connections, you may need to
tighten these up.
Not likely but look at the Q5 transistor mounted under the playfield,
there are 3 down there, you might have checked the wrong one (happens).
Usually these get "stuck" on and fry the coil. If it *is* bad, the MPS-U45
transistor on the driver board is probably gone too.
I would have said to check connector A1J6 for switch matrix but you
said that the lights went out when the upkicker should have fired, this
tells me that the CPU "knows" the switch worked.
Steve
System 80, not just a job, it's an adventure
Bob Shingledecker
Steve:
I can't believe how many times I checked it wrong but the playfield
mounted transistor seems to be fried. I'm kicking myself for wasting
a weekend on it. I must have been checking the wrong lead on the
collector. Is there any way to bypass it? I ordered some new
transistors (previous owner used a 2n 3792???) from Mouser NTE 180 but
I'd like to bypass it if I could.
Thanks for your help, I usually do OK but I think I needed to walk
away from this one for a while. Sometimes you get so anxious you
overlook the obvious.
Bob
Mr. Big Head
$1.50 each instead of the 2n3792s at $7 each. They're the same ratings, and
is a complement to the other 2N3055 transistors on the driver board.
I know that Mouser has them.
"Bob Shingledecker" <bsh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b5872526.0108...@posting.google.com...
Bob Shingledecker
Steve:
Me again. It's not the transistor. I changed it with one from my HH
and it did not change anything. The ball rolls to the gate, gate
releases, goes to kicker switch, waits a second and unlatches the
relay for the lower playfield. I removed the lower playfield and
checked the coil with a transformer and it fires just fine. Any
ideas?
Bob
Tony Holdgate
painful experience they usually go as a group- even plugging in that new
driver board may have fried q15 on it!
The solution for me after blowing heaps was
1. A new coil (again)
2. Replace the transistor on the playfield with a 2n5859 - 15 amp (replacing
the 2n5875- 10amp)
3. Replace q15 on the driver board
4. Fit the pullup resistor as per
http://www.marvin3m.com/sys80/index1.htm#pullup
Haven't blown one in six months - used to go all the time
Tony
Bob Shingledecker <bsh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b5872526.01081...@posting.google.com...
Bob Shingledecker
Tony:
Could be. The game was fine until I lifted the playfield about six
months ago to change some bulbs. Put it back down and the upkicker
and a few other coils locked on (imagine that on a system 80!).Had to
send in the MPU for repair. THe coil is new, I'll check/replace the
transistors. When I get the time I'm going to post my trials with
this machine. I have ten pins (4 system 80) and this one has been
really difficult.
Bob
Bob
Steve Charland
That's not uncommon with system 80 games, especially games like BH, HH & Spirit. The wiring harnesses aren't
long enough and there are lots of connectors involved. It doesn't get any easier when you have so many games,
but 4 system 80 games? Come on, I have over 25 if you include the proto's and later 80B's. :) -S
Steve Charland
No way to bypass it because it powers the coil and the small MPS-U45 can't do the job. Like Tony said, add a
pull up resistor to the transistor when you put it back together. For now, take a break and play pinball. -S
Medical Staff
not to nitpick you, but don't you mean 2N5879, not 2N5859? I don't know if
there is a difference... 2N5879s worked for me in my BH playfield
transistors...
Dan
Joe Ward
modified original) pop bumper driver board. I did this to mine even
though a lot of people said it wasn't necessary. I will say that this
is not completely foolproof as I did have the PLiz board transistor
fail once due to a bad CPU board. (Much cheaper TIP transistor
though!) You can also change a resistor in the PLiz board to vary the
length of the "pulse" sent to the coil; this gives you full control
over the strength of the "upkick".
good luck!
On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:23:30 GMT, Steve Charland <ccha...@home.com>
wrote:
John Robertson
transistor, the problem relates back to either the ground problems
(often discussed) OR a missing pull-up resistor on the base of the
driven transistor. BE sure to wire the pull-up from the base to the
24VDC source for the coil, not on the load-side of the coil.
John :-#)#
On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:23:30 GMT, Steve Charland <ccha...@home.com>
wrote:
>Hi Bob,
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
mailto:j...@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Tony Holdgate
Medical Staff <meds...@means.net> wrote in message
news:luSd7.268$_I5....@news7.onvoy.net...
Steve Charland
Cliffy
the coil from the mpu45. Steve correctly said thats a no-no. But then
what the heck do I know about system 80 ;-)
--
Cliffy
'54 Keeney Sportsman Deluxe, '82 Tron U/R, '83 (dead) Zaccaria Pinball
Champ
'87 F-14 Tomcat, '90 Funhouse, '93 Creature
http://members.home.net/crinear/ramps/ramps.html
Bob Shingledecker
Well, I checked out a bunch of stuff and I'm still having problems.
The original replacement coil was not working correctly. After it
fried the last time I ordered a replacement #19300. Tried the pop
bumper fix and it wouldn't have it so I used an old gottlieb coil and
soldered in a diode for the time being.
I can get it to fire with a jumper from ground to the leg on the
transistor (so I know the coil is OK). I can get the gate to fire
with ground and the metal tab on Q13. I can not get the kicker to
fire with ground and the metal tab to Q15. I switched driver boards
and got the kicker to fire one time and now it won't do anything
again.
Am I frying chip Z4 on my driver boards? How do I check with a scope?
I get indication on Q3 for the ball gate when the ball gate switch is
closed (scoping green/ yellow wire)but nothing on Q5 (brown/ red) when
that switch is closed.
thanks in advance,
Bob
Steve Charland
You might want to try that pop bumper board fix again on the upkicker except this time, use the A-4893 (2.1 ohm).
A-19300 (7.8 ohm) is the wrong coil for an upkicker.
I think Z4 on the driver board will be fine but it sounds like you may have connector issues to look at. You should
be able to jumper from the MPS-U45 transistor to the 2N5875 transistor that drive the coil in question and test it that
way. This will bypass the connectors. (be sure to make the jumper connections with the game off, you don't want more
problems) Then try grounding out the tab on the MPS-U45. If the kicker now works, chase down the connector problem from
there. There are only 2 connections to look at (A3J3-22 & A9J8-2)
Steve
System 80, not just a job, it's an adventure
Bob Shingledecker
Exactly right. It was a connector issue. When I was testing for continuity I
wanted to ensure that I had it at the driver board so I clipped a lead
onto the switch then I lowered the two playfields. My next step was to
open the head and check for continuity at the board itself ( with the connector
in place I checked the trace on the driver board). I had a good connection
so I closed everthing up and still couldn't get it to fire.
I then lifted the playfields and checked for a signal with my scope and
found that I had one at the gate but not the kicker so I went back to the
backbox again. When I checked for the signal with the backbox open I had
it. I dropped a ball on the lower playfield and it kicked it up. Closed
everything back up and it wouldn't work again.
What I found was good continuity when the backbox door was open. When I
closed it the bottom part of the wire harness was rubbing along the bottom
of the backbox and causing the connector to bow away from the edge of the
driver board. Who woulda thunk it?
I think it's a great example of a connector issue on a Gottlieb pin of
that era. It goes to show you that a problem can be so simple it is very
difficult to be able to troubleshoot. I hope this info will be helpful to
someone else it was a good learning experience for me. Black Hole is proably
more prone to connector issues that HH because the boards are mounted to the
door. I'm going to look for the post someone had up about connector part
numbers and change all my connectors.
Thanks to everyone for all their help. Now I need to get the sound board
repaired and I should be in good shape. Somehow during all of this the speech
chip went bad. I have no speech, some missing sounds and I noticed the
speech chip gets very hot so I'm not using any sound
Bob
Steve Charland
I knew you'd find it!!! Go play your game. :) -S
Bill
they we overdiagnose it. I picked up a Dracula (williams) and the
vendor said it had a sound problem. Yeah..it had a problem......the
speaker had come unplugged.
It hurts me to fix the hard problems. =0)