Anyone buy from Costco yet?
MRG
Just wondering. Also has anyone tried to use Costco to price match
with a distributer yet? Seems to me the Costco prices are the going
rate for the new games.
PinBallLooking
> http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=pinba...
>
> Just wondering. Also has anyone tried to use Costco to price match
> with a distributer yet? Seems to me the Costco prices are the going
> rate for the new games.
Why does Batman cost more than the new NBA.
cheeseheads1111
with them and that stern is mainly going to distribute thru costco
from now on.
MRG
wrote:
> I called Betson and they told me stern is no longer doing business
> with them and that stern is mainly going to distribute thru costco
> from now on.
WOW!
azpinlawyer
Those prices INCLUDE shipping!!
MRG
With at least 90 day waranty, could be indefinete.
SEpins
This will definitely hit the used market hard!!! Why buy a used one
for $3300-$3500 when you can buy a new one and return it to Costco a
year later. Costco will change their policy shortly on pinballs??? But
even if they,do there will be guys like Derek that buy something and
find out they don't like it...Now they can just ship it back and get
all their dough!!!
SEpins
And one other issue...You may not have shipping but you will pay $280
sales tax in our state.
skibum2002
any chance of Wal-Mart striking up something with Stern to sell online
or even keep some of the stores stocked?
MrBally
It will be at Sam's Club.
BTW, if Stern stops using the distributor network, Will Costco sell
parts or will Stern do the direct parts deal or it will be "Parts
only" distributors such as Pinball Life etc?
MRG
door. This usually included delivery or you could just pick it up. I
don't think it will hurt the used game prices. What's nice about the
Costco prices is that you don't "have to know a guy" to get a good
price on a game. Hopefully more people will buy NIB games because of
the Waranty and no hassel pricing.
How do the Costco prices compete with Jacks?
Lloyd Olson
you'll ever see more than 500 to 1,000 units a year going into the home
market. Just like it's been for about 10 years. And not enough to make a
difference in Stern surviving.
"MRG" <cast...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:54a13114-7d21-4879...@r25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Steve
public will make a difference in sales. I suspect it will.
Steve
"Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:PLSdnRMqtoEm48bX...@skypoint.com...
Lloyd Olson
going after for $4K items. So you sell two more a year, big deal. Destroy
the distributor network for nothing ?
"Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:4a5b82d4$0$1588$742e...@news.sonic.net...
JonProphet
> People are at costco to save money on food and stuff. Wrong crowd to be
> going after for $4K items. So you sell two more a year, big deal. Destroy
> the distributor network for nothing ?
>
> "Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4a5b82d4$0$1588$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>
>
> >I wonder if the exposure of new pins to the general
> > public will make a difference in sales. I suspect it will.
> > Steve
> > "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
> >news:PLSdnRMqtoEm48bX...@skypoint.com...
> >> The economy will have to improve a lot for that to happen. And I doubt
> >> you'll ever see more than 500 to 1,000 units a year going into the home
> >> market. Just like it's been for about 10 years. And not enough to make a
> >> difference in Stern surviving.
>
> >>news:54a13114-7d21-4879...@r25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Hopefully more people will buy NIB games because of the Waranty and no
> >> hassel pricing.
How many on this site have a Costco or Sam's Club membership? (I do)
Just another distributor, IMHO. Unless Stern says it will no longer be
using its distributor for new games sales (and I've not heard this,
how would Jack being doing the LOTR re-run?), I doubt this will have a
large impact on Stern sales overall other than positive. How many here
buy new games? I'd say a small percentage. I think its just a move by
Stern to try and improve the numbers. I'm sure in the beginning sales
will pick up minimally but it may be able to sustain those numbers
long term which is good for Stern. Period.
Btw, on my DEJP it still has a valid number that I can call to get
parts, which just so happens to be Stern. Hopefully, Stern's marketing
folks discover what a great move it would be to include a DVD on how
to use the game, maintain it and call Stern if they need a part. They
will then be told what part number it is and then call Marco's. That
is what they did for me for my JP! Maybe they will have to increase
the support staff to more than 2! Give Chad and folks someone else to
talk to while they are manning the phones!
-JD-
-JD-
Cliffy
furniture and jewelry. They also carried those multigame vids and got a
metric ton of those things into the hands of the general populace. Our
local Costco did have pinball machines a few years ago but it was deal
they worked out with a local distrib. They did sell so it remains to be
seen what they can do with Sterns. They should be a far cry better than
Sharper Image at moving them, that's for sure :)
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
Home of the world's finest pinball protectors
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Lloyd Olson
know his plans or anything. Time will tell if he does any future custom runs
with Stern or not.
You really think this will be a positive thing for Stern ? How long you been
in the industry ? Every manufacturer that has by passed the distributor
network and gone direct sales or anything else, is gone. And the way things
are going, I don't see any different outcome this time.
"JonProphet" <jbd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fdcec27f-5d39-4560...@r25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Joe Grenuk
corner? And aren't those terminally ill distributors over in that
corner? And look! Aren't those some more dead distributors over there?
And over there! That's a "RIP" tombstone for pinball on location,
isn't it?
Seems to me that Stern has already pronounced the distributor network
dead, and this is what they see as their best shot.
IMHO, there is a home market for new pins. Like Cliff said, Costco
does fine with multi-thousand $ electronics, and even CARS. I believe
the problem is that John Q. Public had/has no idea where to buy a pin,
or how much they cost. Everyone goes to Costco or Sam's. They will see
pins in those stores. KIDS will see pins in those stores, and they
will bug their parents for one. Those scenarios have never ever played
out with a Betson or Greater Southern. And they will see the prices,
and while they will be high, people will believe that the pricing is
fair and that they aren't getting screwed. My frame of reference is
Greater Southern. I would crap my pants if I was John Q. Public in
there looking for a pin. First, no prices on anything. Second, when
you do ask, prices all across the board...why is the price of $1800
for that Austin Powers half of what the Simpsons is selling for? Oh, I
see, it is because it is an older game! OK, how much is that Shrek
over there? $5395????!!!!! Yikes, why is that? Well, because it is
new. OH, I see...If I pay $5395 (plus $400 in tax), then in a couple
years it will be worth $3500 like that Simpsons? And don't forget
this one..."I was in here last week and Homer said that the Austin
Powers was $1500, why is it $1800 today?" That's because the sales
guy gets to keep everything over $1400 for the pin, that's why.
Seems to me, again, that the distributors are already dead and REALLY
dead to the home market...homeowners wanting a pin have obviously
looked and reserached hard and landed on Jack. Think about that...why
would a homeowner in Atlanta go buy from some character in NJ, rather
than from Greater Southern, right here in town? Well, price would be a
big factor...$1500 less on a new Stern compared to what Greater
Southern charged. Without being burdened by facts, I would bet that
Jack sells more pins to the home market than the entire distributor
base in the whole damn country, because that's what distributors
do...the distribute at wholesale, and they run a (bad) retail business
"on the side". And location would be another factor. Costco's are
where people are. Duh. Distributors are where the rent was cheap, AKA
where the people aren't.
If I am Stern, I see good old Jack moving loads of boxes to
homeowners, and I see distributors not paying bills and not buying,
and I think to myself: "Self, if Jack ItalianName can sell XXXXXX
boxes, I bet Costco can sell 5 x XXXXXX.
Again, my frame of reference is one dead distributor. And I don't miss
them a bit. Why it was a little convenient to be able to hop on the
Harley on a nice day and cruise over for those three rubbers I was
short to finish my project of the week, I damn sure won't miss that $6
invoice for three 2.5" white rubbers....
Just my $.02!
Lloyd Olson
for me.
The distributor network can be fixed. Direct sales is the last nail in the
coffin.
There is a home market for new pins. 1,000 units or less each year. Probably
less now with the economy.
And as far as electronics and cars, a TV, a refrigerator, a car, most people
need these. Pinball is on the luxury list, most people can live without it.
Comparing apples to oranges there.
"Joe Grenuk" <jgr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:13d4cb1c-93fa-41ef...@o13g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
AAPIN
> going after for $4K items. So you sell two more a year, big deal. Destroy
> the distributor network for nothing ?
They sell $8,000 hot tubs...$5,000 gazebos....$4,500 vending
machines....$3,000 caskets....$9,000 pool tables....
I am not saying this will "save" Stern or anything, but Costco does
sell high-dollar items, and more exposure is always a good thing.
goatdan
> The LOTR deal was started some time ago. I can't speak for Jack and don't
> know his plans or anything. Time will tell if he does any future custom runs
> with Stern or not.
>
> You really think this will be a positive thing for Stern ? How long you been
> in the industry ? Every manufacturer that has by passed the distributor
> network and gone direct sales or anything else, is gone. And the way things
> are going, I don't see any different outcome this time.
Lloyd,
What does the distributor market at this point in time gain Stern in
using? I greatly respect your opinions on all things coin op, but
I've not understood the existence of the distributor network ever
since I first got into this hobby (and that was while working at
arcades). I mean, you have a game company who sells to a distributor,
who then sells to operators / home market / whatever. To me, if Stern
sells direct to operators and / or stores like this that do, then they
have the win of getting more money, while also getting to distribute
the games further.
The distributor network, from every one that I have dealt with, fails
to give potential home owners anything. I was turned away from them
in the past when I was there even when I worked for operators when I
was just there to look.
I think what would really make this a complete win would be setting up
the games *for coin play* in the stores so people could try and
operators and the GP could buy. That would create a market for those
games to earn, and then those games could be sold at a discount after
they were done being floor models.
I do think this is the beginning of the official end of the
distributor network. I don't think they have (with few exceptions)
done much of anything for the coin op business for the last few years
though.
Please do tell me what I'm missing. I believe it is something.
Lloyd Olson
end of things has a lot of work ahead of it.
The hobby is an entirely different thing. Huge difference. I run into this
all the time. People think they know me, or my business, and they haven't a
clue. Only their hobby experience. I often get accused of not listening.
Well when it comes to how I make a living, I can't afford to risk info from
a hobby. I listen to those with experience in my field.
The distributor network once moved 100,000 units a year for Williams. It
once moved 10,000 units a year for Stern.
The hobby has never been anywhere near those numbers. That is why nobody
bothers with it. An op buys a million worth of equipment a year from a
distributor, or one person comes in once and buys one pin. Which do you
think the distributor is going to go after ? Pinballs for the hobby are
better off through the home jockeys.
The hobby isn't what needs to be fixed, selling into the hobby will never
generate numbers to keep a manufacture in coin op open. Any effort in that
direction, is a waste of resources, and will ultimately hurt the hobby.
The hobby flourished in the past because of cheap used machines and cheap
parts. As production numbers keep dropping, you see huge increases in
prices. Even now, a person buys a new pin, keeps it up or in better shape
than when built, and a year later sells it. Well they want their money back
at least. There goes depreciation and cheaper machines. If Stern closes, end
of new pins. Or worse if someone were to make custom pins, 20 of this, or 20
of that. The price per game will go through the roof. And turn into a rich
man's hobby.
I'm a firm believer in get the manufacturer/distributor/op going and the
hobby benefits. Concentrate on the hobby, and you'll weaken and doom the
hobby. Quicker than interest and attrition. Which is already happening. LTG
:)
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:55ed145e-6301-4b1f...@m18g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
will pinball. The general public don't care about the hobby. And with all
the other interests, unlikely to change.
"AAPIN" <nt4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18e723f4-2d56-4db5...@p18g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
pinballzmylife
>
> - Show quoted text -
Stern is not going anywhere!!!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-pinball-side-city-zone-08-jul08,0,6760817.story
Stern is still moving 8k to 9k of each machine they produce.
Lloyd Olson
offs and salary cuts ?
"pinballzmylife" <silver...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3c2b4b1c-f899-4a68...@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Stern is not going anywhere!!!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-pinball-side-city-zone-08-jul08,0,6760817.storyStern is still moving 8k to 9k of each machine they produce.
pinballzmylife
> Too funny. Since they made 40 to 50 thousand pins last year, why all the lay
> offs and salary cuts ?
>
>
> news:3c2b4b1c-f899-4a68...@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Stern is not going anywhere!!!
>
Well, LLoyd, I didn't write the article, So it must have some truth to
it!!! :)
Seems to me that stern is doing pretty good, from the read of the
article there.
Lloyd Olson
I was wrong. Stern is flourishing. Any second now they put salaries back to
where they were. Rehire everyone laid off. And increase their total output
by 800%.
Halleluiah. We are heading into the promised land. Thank you Gary Stern !
LTG :)
"pinballzmylife" <silver...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3ed2735b-2750-4680...@o36g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Abby Normal
> I'll bet they sell a lot more hot tubs, gazebos, and caskets, than they ever
> will pinball. The general public don't care about the hobby. And with all
> the other interests, unlikely to change.
>
I think they'll sell more to the home owners through costco. Many
people like the idea of having a pin in their home game room or man
cave, but wouldn't know where to even start when it comes to buying
one. Costco will make it easier for the less serious collector or home
user.
goatdan
> I'm a firm believer in get the manufacturer/distributor/op going and the
> hobby benefits. Concentrate on the hobby, and you'll weaken and doom the
> hobby. Quicker than interest and attrition. Which is already happening. LTG
> :)
I still don't see how changing distributors to places like this would
impact them negatively? If you operate a game that you bought from
Costco or a game bought from your local distributor, you're still
operating a game, right? There are so many people who use Sam's Club
for their vending routes (you can even, or could even buy the vending
machines from them in the past) that I see the movement of routed
games to stores like that to be a relatively natural extension.
Speaking from strictly my days in the industry, where admittedly I
wasn't an owner but at one point I visited with an owner some
distributors looking at product, I see nothing negative about changing
the distribution scheme.
I agree with the fact you can't listen to the hobby, as most of the
time the stuff that makes the most sense here doesn't make much sense
for coin op routing. However, I just don't see why taking out the
middleman and selling to a place with *much* less overhead for each
game sold (since they have so much else, instead of a distributor who
needs to make, say $500 per game, they can make $100 and be okay) how
this would do anything but help.
I do hope if they have floor models at these stores that they are set
up on coin play. Otherwise, I do see a potential negative to routing
there. Beyond that, I don't think distributors -- especially at this
point in time -- add anything to the operator part.
Lloyd Olson
People buying vending equipment from Costco or Sam's are small venders, not
the big ones. Many distributors have a minimum order for your first time
doing business with them. To be sure you are dedicated to vending or
operating, and not doing it as a lark. So the little guy might not have any
choice to buy vending equipment.
So unless you can get Costco or Sam's to move 10,000 pins a year, there are
problems ahead for Stern.
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:56fe1f59-6b9d-48fb...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
badbilly27
> The coin op industry is in the toilet, no denying that. The distributor/op
> end of things has a lot of work ahead of it.
> ..........
> I'm a firm believer in get the manufacturer/distributor/op going and the
> hobby benefits. Concentrate on the hobby, and you'll weaken and doom the
> hobby. Quicker than interest and attrition. Which is already happening. LTG
> :)
A good discussion thread. I'm surprised if Stern really does move
entirely away from the distributor channel and all to Costco. Lloyd's
comments on distributors focusing on ops versus home makes sense.
However, opening a new channel of distribution can be a good thing to
expand business so long as you don't eliminate other channels.
Think about all other products sold in Costco or Sams. Many times
different skus than Best Buy, Walmart or your local grocery store
(larger and in bulk). They do this to "expand" their channel reach but
do not pull products from the other previously mentioned retail
stores.
The coin-op market is changing but some things fundamentally do
remain. I think better access for hobbyists and awareness of pins at
stores like Costco is a good thing for Stern. The web is a channel
that also challenged traditional sales distribution channels. You must
adapt and evolve in this new economy. Many who survive have/are
learning this. Let distributors attempt to adapt rather than burn the
bridge they can come over with to help you.
Cliffy
circumstance you are in but indeed, we do. With rare exceptions we all
CARE too. But the fact is, and you've said it yourself, the coin-op
pinball business is just about dead. Regardless of why, the result is
the same. It's dead.
Can it be revived? Well, it would take a concentrated effort on behalf
of that entire system; operator, distributor, manufacturer. From the
manufacturers side he has to make a product worth it's price, worth
being determined by the playing market. The distributor has to be able
to afford to stock not only each machine but it's attendant parts to
support the operators. The operator has to know which games will be
attractive to his demographic and do all the necessary marketing to
bring the customers in.
And therein lies the key. Marketing. There is absolutely NO marketing to
the average Joe about coin-op pinball! As a former franchise owner there
were two basic forms of marketing. National level which was put forward
by the franchiser and local level marketing which targeted our
demographic and paid for by me, the franchisee. The national ads build
name recognition and loyalty and introduce new product. The local ads
cater to the tastes of the locale and price according to the economic
demos. So, in this case, the manufacturer would be pushing his brand
(Stern) in nationwide tv and print ads to build the name recognition.
The distributor has little to do with marketing and rightfully so. The
operator then has to build on the national ads and tout that he has
those hot new machines in the locale. Namco, SNK, Capcom, Sega all do
this on the vid side by sponsoring national and local tournaments and
tying arcade vids in with their xbox counterparts.
Costco and the like will expose pinball to the masses on a level never
before seen. Platitude? Not at all! Let's face facts. Pinball has ALWAYS
been shoved off against the back walls. Always only in an arcade as an
incidental. "Oh, looky here! One of them there pin ball machines" or
"Hey I didn't know they still made those things!" and, of course, the EM
sounds used to represent a pinball machines in the movies even today!
Why? Because it's always been an afterthought. ZERO MARKETING!
So there's your mandate, my friend. MARKET PINBALL. Right now, today,
only the hobbyists do ANY of the marketing for pinball. WE put on the
shows that bring in the public. Putting up banners and signs and
newspaper ads. For goodness sakes even freeway billboards! Where in hell
is Stern!? Where are the ops?! You know, the people who stand to GAIN
the most from marketing!?
Of course location matters, demographics matters, but believe it or not,
economics... not so much. Look at the 1930's, the era of America's great
depression. Despite the depression there were more pinball machine
manufacturers than at any other time in history. And innovation was key
as well as marketing. The manufacturers and operators would do anything
they could to wheedle the nickels and pennies out of peoples pockets. It
was good business in a rough time.
All my pretty worthless 2 cents of opinion, and it takes some liberties
in the form of generalities, of course, Lloyd. But here we stand at a
crossroads. At this point it's all about choice. Defend that which no
longer works, change it so that it does work or change our own business
model to what works now.
Take care, old friend.
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
Home of the world's finest pinball protectors
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Mark Clayton
Canada, so even if they each bought one for stock, that would be a step
in the right direction. If every store sold an average of just 10
of each new game, that would bring Stern over 10,000 per year in
sales again. Not saying that's likely, but it's not impossible.
-Mark
-----
http://pinballpal.com
pinballjim
operators.
Stern employees fairly consistently said that overseas distributors
and US home buyers made up the vast majority of their sales. Frankly,
forsaking the home market to preserve the domestic status quo of
declining sales was the biggest mistake they made. Too bad they
didn't get a piece of the credit madness.
No offense, Lloyd, but haven't the last half dozen or so of your
machines either been donated or loaners?
From hobbyists?
PINAHOLIC
>
> - Show quoted text -
A couple of things First as an executive member like myself, you
get 2% (or maybe 4%) back from all purchases. What about good old
customer service, good luck. Second, . I may put a card on the
bulletin board if there is one offering pinball repair service.
-Al
JonProphet
Where is the documentation that Stern has abandoned the distributor
network? Not to mention, I only know of like 1 or 2 distributors. The
rest are all "Man-Cave" wreck room resellers who resell used games.
That they shop out and/or restore.
-JD-
Lloyd Olson
"pinballjim" <pinba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fc848a0-a118-40bf...@s6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
No offense, Lloyd, but haven't the last half dozen or so of your
machines either been donated or loaners?
From hobbyists?
Two pins were given to me ( Spiderman, and later Batman for my 36th
anniversary ) I don't have an actual breakdown of those who contributed.
They included hobbyists, ( pinball and Lionel train guys ), friends not into
pinball, ops, distributors, etc.
The only loaner I've had is Ross's Corvette which le loaned for Fred's first
May Day tournament in 2005, and hasn't gone home yet. The Stern IJ was here
briefly, I was going to see about buying it or trading for it, it went out
quicker than I thought as the owner had a chance to trade it for a pin for
his fianc�e and I encouraged it.
No offense taken, just clarifying a little. LTG :)
Lloyd Olson
last ten years or so. Even chipped in on Clay's deal to get a Family Guy for
Marvin's.
First thing I ever gave here, was when Silverunicorn smacked a deer coming
back from Allentown. I sent him a NOS powerball for TZ ( when they weren't
available, and had some value ) so he could sell it and help his situation.
No offense, but I wanted to point out this hasn't been a one way street. :)
"pinballjim" <pinba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fc848a0-a118-40bf...@s6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
No offense, Lloyd, but haven't the last half dozen or so of your
Lloyd Olson
"Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:sbWdnRmXh8ogWMbX...@skypoint.com...
John
maybe not. I'll embrace it and hope for the best.
pinghetto
What you aren't saying is distributors have already dumped Stern. I
know a local distributor is no longer purchased any Stern pinballs
(starting with CSI) unless one is pre ordered first. They don't sell
them and they don't put them on their route. The other (and only
other) distributor ordered 2. And one of those two was in hopes that
a certain home customer would have bought it. Both NBA's are still
sitting in their warehouse. As for saying that the manufacturers that
have sold direct are now out of business..... first of all, not many
in the world of amusements are still in business. Hell, Midway (WMS/
BALLY) is no longer in the coin op world along with many other giants
that never sold one single game to the home market (or operators)
directly. Incredible Technologies is one of the only manufactures
standing and they started selling direct to operators and home
customers over 4 years ago. I think some facts may need to be
rechecked. And as for Stern not using distributor..... COMPLETELY
UNTRUE! I know of a local distributor that is already looking at
getting one of the beta tests for Big Buck Hunter. Obviously (some)
distributors aren't cutting it for Stern right now. Otherwise, they
wouldn't need to look elsewhere for revenue. This may not be the
definitive answer, but just maybe it will keep the only pinball
manufacturer a float. Just my $0.02.
Jeff
For maybe the first time ever, I am going to disagree with you here:)
If you have ever shopped at Costco, you will see people walk out of
there with thousands of dollars of merchandise every day. Computers,
flatscreens, jewelry, etc. Yes, they have food, but they sell lots of
expensive items as well. Walk in there on any given Saturday and it's
hard to believe the economy is struggling. Plus, people use their AMEX
rebate cards and if they are Executive Members they get 2% back as
well.
The multicades they had there moved very quickly. Will they move
enough pinballs to Save Stern? Probably not, but they will move. I am
simply amazed at the 2-5K impulse buys I see there every time I go...
Seems a shame to cut off the distributor network though. Desperate
times call for desperate measures I guess.
-Jeff
, On Jul 13, 2:58�pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> People are at costco to save money on food and stuff. Wrong crowd to be
> going after for $4K items. So you sell two more a year, big deal. Destroy
> the distributor network for nothing ?
>
> "Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4a5b82d4$0$1588$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>
>
> >I wonder if the exposure of new pins to the general
> > public will make a difference in sales. I suspect it will.
> > � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Steve
> > "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
> >news:PLSdnRMqtoEm48bX...@skypoint.com...
> >> The economy will have to improve a lot for that to happen. And I doubt
> >> you'll ever see more than 500 to 1,000 units a year going into the home
> >> market. Just like it's been for about 10 years. And not enough to make a
> >> difference in Stern surviving.
>
> >> "MRG" <castro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:54a13114-7d21-4879...@r25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Hopefully more people will buy NIB games because of the Waranty and no
> >> hassel pricing.- Hide quoted text -
JonProphet
Lloyd, I mean no disrespect to you or your business. I think what you
do is very noble. Having said that, a statement like, "How long have
you been in this hobby?" is a bit "inflamatory". I've been around the
block in many hobbies, collector or otherwise as well as business. But
asking someone "what do you know" is a bit like calling someone an
ignorant monkey.
Anyhow, good luck in the future.
-JD-
Lloyd Olson
Operating ? Distributing ? Hobby ? A fair question to understand where they
response is coming from.
"JonProphet" <jbd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3835daba-867a-4396...@g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd Olson
Yes, I have seen expensive items there. But compared to the carts full of
food and stuff, ( small items ) I don't see them pushing enough product to
keep Stern alive.
"Jeff" <drjb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7eb20f05-a249-4fdd...@d4g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
pinghetto
Amusement, vending, and gaming distribution / Amusement route service
manager and location manager for 11+ years. That is my experience.
raddroxx
>
> The distributor network once moved 100,000 units a year for Williams. It
> once moved 10,000 units a year for Stern.
>
Just curious, what Year, Decade or Century was this? I believe that
those days and those numbers are pretty much ANCIENT HISTORY.
Lloyd Olson
"pinghetto" <mill...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:5758dc0d-c462-49bf...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
MrBally
> A newbie. :)
>
> "pinghetto" <milla...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>
> news:5758dc0d-c462-49bf...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Amusement, vending, and gaming distribution / Amusement route service
> manager and location manager for 11+ years. That is my experience.
I was just about to post "novice".
pinghetto
to brag.
Lloyd Olson
in the thread.
"pinghetto" <mill...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:2a94b917-ecea-4e68...@k20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Chris LeMasters
> And therein lies the key. Marketing.
Honestly, the expense of marketing (or in the case you describe,
advertising) directly to players is too expensive to net a return at
the current point on the demand curve. Too many people to reach. Too
complicated of a message to deliver. And, if you did actually reach a
critical mass of players demanding a machine to play, you don't have
nearly enough coverage to satisfy that demand once you stimulate it
(and consumer demand rarely waits).
The problem is that you need to market to players, rather than buyers
(ops, locations, etc). Most buyers already know about pinball.
To this point, it is interesting to note that the distributor network
has been the historical venue for marketing (marketing to buyers, of
course). Of course, they don't really reach the audience you want to
reach (players). It would be interesting to think about the examples
of the coin-op entertainment business directly marketing to
consumers.
Stimulating consumer demand is expensive and tough. BUT... there are
newer avenues for marketing than signs and billboards... weird
internetty avenues that can drive fads virually, and cheaply. Has to
be clever - those young audiences are pretty cynical.
Chris
goatdan
> It's still the numbers. Distributors will dump Stern and never look back.
>
> People buying vending equipment from Costco or Sam's are small venders, not
> the big ones. Many distributors have a minimum order for your first time
> doing business with them. To be sure you are dedicated to vending or
> operating, and not doing it as a lark. So the little guy might not have any
> choice to buy vending equipment.
>
> So unless you can get Costco or Sam's to move 10,000 pins a year, there are
> problems ahead for Stern.
It may be in the numbers, but I think that you are thinking of a time
ten years ago when things like minimum orders made more sense. But
even then, okay -- I'm going to route ONE location, which is going to
have a dart board and a pinball table. Why can't I buy the stuff? If
it is because of financing, well then I hate to say it but credit
cards are just as good as financing deals nowadays as distributor
networks.
When I went into the distributors around here (shortly after LOTR came
out) with the guy who had one location he owned and operated, the
minimum thing was a big part of the reason that he opted not to
purchase anything. He was hoping for one or two machines, and the
place said they needed to sell four for first time buyers. Well, that
was the end of that.
Stick the same thing in Costco, and he might very well pick up one or
two games and add them to his line up.
Heck, at this point in time there simply are not any more big
operators left out there. People who used to route hundreds of
machines are in a relatively small handful of places. I have said
before I think the Milwaukee area is a pretty darn good one for
pinball operations, as I know of five or six operators within about 30
miles of the city. Having said that, with the exception of BDK and
IJ4 (which are everywhere), these people have combined to purchase
about one of every other Stern release.
If these guys want to continue routing pins, they can pick them up at
Costco. If a small business owner stops in and sees a pin and goes,
"Wow, that would be neat to have in my store!" that only helps Stern
and location operators. If people stop in, see that there are still
pinball machines and go, "Where can I play that?" it will only help
location operators.
Stern is absolutely right to make games that work well for the route
market, as an op can still buy 10-20 games at a crack if they think it
will be big. But without distributors pushing it, and without
distributors being willing to talk with small market people (IE the
only group that will keep pinball moving), it's certain doom.
7 or 8 years ago, I thought the distribution network was a fossil.
With the exception of people like Jack who have adjusted to meet the
changing business world, today it is made up of even more fossils than
before -- only this time, fossils that have dust all over almost
everything at them. The way of the future is to get creative, and
while this still doesn't do much to promote location pinball play,
it's more than Stern has done since Sega sold the company to promote
it in the public, and it makes sense from a distribution sense. I
think it's a good move.
goatdan
> > And therein lies the key. Marketing.
>
> (ops, locations, etc). Most buyers already know about pinball.
No, I'd argue you have to market toward locations. Locations will
market toward players if they believe there is something to gain, as
well as nag operators for the newest games for their location if they
know about them.
Hardcore players already know about pinball, and where to go to play.
Casual players will play a game if they come across it.
If you can get some locations doing promotions like leagues and
whatnot and you can demonstrate to them that pinball leagues are
spectacular because you can do them with relatively little space and
run them year round (unlike volleyball or softball), and then you can
get these locations to actually put money into the promotion of the
games. The key is figuring out a league system that is simple and
people will actually come to play on a weekly basis, and that hasn't
been done at the location level yet.
playedataritoday
> And therein lies the key. Marketing. There is absolutely NO marketing to
> the average Joe about coin-op pinball!
I really hope that Costco is able to help Stern in this regard. If
they threw a machine in their sale flyer or coupon book that would be
a great first step. At least you can get people talking about pinball
that might not have otherwise.
I have a cousin who I would compare notes with over the course of the
past 10 years, as we dreamed of owning a pinball machines. Finally
last year I broke the impasse by buying my first and then quickly
growing my collection to 3. I can't see him going out and doing the
research on his own even though I know his desire to own one is
genuine. Now if he all of a sudden got the Costco coupon book in the
mail featuring a pinball machine, or better yet stumbled onto a
machine in the store I think he would purchase it in a heart beat. He
is a huge Batman fan and frankly that machine was made for his
basement, he just wouldn't have known where to begin to look. Frankly
distributors are not really consumer friendly, but Costco will open
the market to a different segment. I see it as a good opportunity for
Stern and anxiously hope for the best. I'd hate to see them dump the
distributor market completely, but if that is what is going to be
required to keep them afloat then I support it.
Lloyd Olson
You are a distributor, you have a big client, say 5 million a year.
You have a person come in and buy one game or stuff for one location. They
move in on a big op and or piss him off.
First thing happens is big op calls the distributor and wants to know what
the hell is going on. And more than likely starts spending his 5 mill a year
somewhere else.
So if you are a distributor, are you going to keep your big clients happy,
or risk pissing them off over nothing ?
Years ago the distributor's avoided small sales so as to not start wars. Not
every op you run into is nice like me. My old distributor had a bomb go off
in their door about 50 years ago in North Minneapolis. They had somebody
mad.
There are big operators left, you just haven't run into them yet.
"goatdan" <loo...@goatstore.com> wrote in message
news:dbf8c3cd-91b1-408f...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
goatdan
> I can try and explain what the thinking is.
>
> You are a distributor, you have a big client, say 5 million a year.
>
> You have a person come in and buy one game or stuff for one location. They
> move in on a big op and or piss him off.
>
> First thing happens is big op calls the distributor and wants to know what
> the hell is going on. And more than likely starts spending his 5 mill a year
> somewhere else.
>
> So if you are a distributor, are you going to keep your big clients happy,
> or risk pissing them off over nothing ?
>
> Years ago the distributor's avoided small sales so as to not start wars. Not
> every op you run into is nice like me. My old distributor had a bomb go off
> in their door about 50 years ago in North Minneapolis. They had somebody
> mad.
>
> There are big operators left, you just haven't run into them yet.
Agreed with all of the above, however no big distributor is going to
be able to call Costco and ask them what the hell is going on. Costco
won't care.
The big ops, who haven't competed in some areas in years, will now
have to compete to ensure the little guys aren't driving away their
business.
Win win, as far as I see it. And I don't think the business is
lucrative enough any more for anything like the bomb / hatchet / shots
fired / whatever stories of the past. We don't have machines earning
$50 / day on route anymore.
Chris LeMasters
> If you can get some locations doing promotions like leagues and
> whatnot and you can demonstrate to them that pinball leagues are
> spectacular because you can do them with relatively little space and
> run them year round (unlike volleyball or softball),
You raise a good point - and that approach is focused on consumers
that actually have access to the coin-op equipment and know where to
find it. But I think the onus will be on the coin-op company to set
up and run such marketing, rather than the location. Location makes
money selling other items, rather than their take on the equipment
(that's why, in many cases, the operator pays the location to place
the equipment, rather than the other way around). Now some might say
here that this would be an excellent place for the DISTRIBUTOR to get
involved - already reasonably local, knows the operators/locations,
wants to show the value of coin-op equipment in BRINGING traffic to
the location, not just sucking coins out of the existing traffic. And
so, perhaps this is why it is important to have a broad distributor
network: at the location-level, the coin-op business is a personal
one. Plenty of small business owners, with varying levels of
appreciation of marketing (or aspects of the business beyond their
core offering - booze, putt-putt, laundry, etc.) Obviously, Costco is
not a substitute for this part of the marketing program. However,
perhaps the problem is that the distributors are hurting and unwilling
to spend too much 'marketing' time on a niche product like pinball (or
perhaps marketing/relationships are being cut for all coin-op products
by the distributors).
I'm way out of my element on this topic - certainly not an insider -
but I am interested by the business case, as pinball is my hobby. Of
course, I wish more people appreciated the game they way that we do on
RGP. Long live pinball!
Chris
MrBally
> I can try and explain what the thinking is.
>
> You are a distributor, you have a big client, say 5 million a year.
>
> You have a person come in and buy one game or stuff for one location. They
> move in on a big op and or piss him off.
>
> First thing happens is big op calls the distributor and wants to know what
> the hell is going on. And more than likely starts spending his 5 mill a year
> somewhere else.
>
> So if you are a distributor, are you going to keep your big clients happy,
> or risk pissing them off over nothing ?
>
> Years ago the distributor's avoided small sales so as to not start wars. Not
> every op you run into is nice like me. My old distributor had a bomb go off
> in their door about 50 years ago in North Minneapolis. They had somebody
> mad.
>
> There are big operators left, you just haven't run into them yet.
>
Chris LeMasters
the locations that might operate a pinball machine? Are they already
buying some items (paper towels, office supplies, etc.) from Costco?
I'm out of the loop here.
Executive members of Costco get 1-2% back annually from purchases? Is
this true? Interesting.
Chris
The Hammer
8b495bd7-3c75-4aa7...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, SEpins at
ple...@gmail.com wrote on 7/13/09 10:54 AM:
> And one other issue...You may not have shipping but you will pay $280
> sales tax in our state.
Buy it in Oregon! :-)
_______________________________________________________________
VisitOregonSouthCoast.com
goatdan
Almost always, at least in my experience (although never worked for an
op myself, I do know a few and work at a place which has a deal with
an operator now that I have inside info on), the location and the
operator make a split on the equipment. It is generally a 50/50
split, but can change based on various factors. The one I know of, we
get 40% of the take on the games because of how our contract is set
up. No one pays us to route the games at our location beyond that.
If the location makes no money on the pinball machine or arcade video,
then the location doesn't carry them any more. Period. There is no
sense having a store carry a pinball machine if they could put a table
there and sell food more often than people play pinball.
If locations fail to see the need for machines, machines won't be
routed. Period. And pinball, being slightly bigger and harder to
maintain than your average arcade upright, needs to have people
explain *why* you want to route a pin at your location over that Ms.
Pac-Man or whatever. And that is what we don't have right now.
MrBally
> in article
> 8b495bd7-3c75-4aa7-bf5a-29f40d2ee...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com, SEpins at
> plev...@gmail.com wrote on 7/13/09 10:54 AM:
>
> > And one other issue...You may not have shipping but you will pay $280
> > sales tax in our state.
>
> Buy it in Oregon! :-)
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> VisitOregonSouthCoast.com
>
> http://www.visitoregonsouthcoast.com/
But don't you DARE try to pump your own gas in Oregon! I pumped my
own at the Vancouver, Washington Costco last week when I was there.
Lloyd Olson
"MrBally" <american...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:65f6bb0f-ed12-4a95...@l32g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
Somebody didn't like Harold, eh?
HaHa. Too funny.
You should have seen them scampering around in the late 1980's when the
movie producers were shot by their "sons" out in California. I was kidding
their general manage at the time, I told him now would be a good time to get
a handful of wire and stuff and leave some by the driver doors of their cars
and see how long before the call goes through the warehouse if anybody is in
the building and would go and get gas in their car for them.
Here's a name for you. I saw Herman's cousin some months ago at a movie
theater late at night. Know which Herman ?
Mike at CPR
to Pinball. Two years ago I had never seen a Multicade machine EVER. I
walked into Costco and there staring at me was a nice shiny NEW
Ultimate Arcade lined up with at least 10 unopened boxes. I bought
mine and the others were gone within a week. This Christmas there had
to be at least 20, maybe even more and they were gone in just a few
days. I'm in a small city on the East Coast in Canada and these are
over $3000 with taxes and they went fast. If pinballs sell half as
well then it will be wildly successful.
It's funny, I was into my local distributor/operator which runs a huge
territory (much of eastern Canada) and the Dark Knight was their first
pinball purchase in over 10 years.... and they bought only one. He
also mentioned they were distributors for Chicago Coin and my Ultimate
Arcade. They have never sold one in over two years..... Read into it
what you will.
Mike
On Jul 14, 1:08 am, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> "MrBally" <americannleag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Cliffy
>> And therein lies the key. Marketing.
>
> Honestly, the expense of marketing (or in the case you describe,
> advertising) directly to players is too expensive to net a return at
> the current point on the demand curve.
>
In *ANY* market, ANY, demand is a created thing.
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
Home of the world's finest pinball protectors
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Hammer5550
> Now I know Wal-Mart and Pinball Machines don't go hand-in-hand, but
> any chance of Wal-Mart striking up something with Stern to sell online
> or even keep some of the stores stocked?
Well I have brought this idea up before. The Wallmart that I go to
when I would visit my grandmother always had a pinball machine up in
the front usually next to the returns counter, the machines were
always being played (kids waiting on their parents, and husbands
waiting on thier wives so this gave them great exposure, and kept
quite a few parents happy I'm sure. I never saw one for sale, but then
again never asked because I always seemed to be driving my mustang
when I made the trip.
Hammer5550
> People are at costco to save money on food and stuff. Wrong crowd to be
> going after for $4K items. So you sell two more a year, big deal. Destroy
> the distributor network for nothing ?
>
> "Steve" <za...@sonic.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4a5b82d4$0$1588$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> >I wonder if the exposure of new pins to the general
> > public will make a difference in sales. I suspect it will.
> > Steve
> > "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote in message
> >news:PLSdnRMqtoEm48bX...@skypoint.com...
> >> The economy will have to improve a lot for that to happen. And I doubt
> >> you'll ever see more than 500 to 1,000 units a year going into the home
> >> market. Just like it's been for about 10 years. And not enough to make a
> >> difference in Stern surviving.
>
> >> "MRG" <castro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:54a13114-7d21-4879...@r25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Hopefully more people will buy NIB games because of the Waranty and no
> >> hassel pricing.
Well Costco and the other places like Sam's etc. in my area always
have at least 1 or 2 big ticket items in the store selling for about
the price of a pin or more. The Sam’s Club in Annapolis almost always
has one of those John Deer super exotic golf cart/ camper/ trash truck
things that coast 4-6K. They especially drag stuff like this out in
the summer. I even saw one of the amphibious 6 wheel things selling
there once, so I guess it also depends on the area what they sell.
It’s true that people shop in places like Sam’s and Costco for deals
and low food prices, but everyone needs to remember what the real
purpose of why these stores were originally invented, and that was to
sell wholesale goods, paper, printers, computers, etc. to business who
needed them, selling to the public was as afterthought. When I first
signed up for Costco/price club years ago you had to be part of a
company run, or federal credit union, or sponsored by a company before
they would sell you a membership. So in a way they have always acted
like an outlet for supplies and yea us normal people (if you can call
me that lol) go in for food and stuff, a lot of the customers are
business customers and they may sure well have the cash to buy a
pinball or whatever else they want. If nothing else it will at least
give a whole lot of exposure to pinball being still alive and people
who love to play it. Of course like I said in a previous post if they
don’t put any out on the floor for people to see, then the point will
be mute, most people aren’t going to go to the website and look for
something they don’t even knows exists. Gary needs to make them give
him floor space like companies do in the supermarket. Me personally I
would love to find an op that sells new and old machines and would let
me look at them before I buy, unfortunately I don’t know of any or if
there even are any in my area. If any of you guys do know of one In
the southern Maryland area (I live about 45min. south of Annapolis MD
then please pm me and let me know, I always try and support the local
guy when possible (wish I lived close to Lloyd and could stop in and
do business with someone like him) but until them Costco is really my
only hope. I wanted a NIB Indiana Jones or Spiderman pinball from
Stern and would have ordered it today if Costco were selling them now.
Unfortunately none of the titles they are selling at this moment
excite me so I will have to wait until they build one that does, or
hopefully run across a NIB Indy in the meantime. Sorry to be long
winded, but I have never purchased a NIB machine and would love to one
day.
CornCob
LTG has a point that has been missed. The distributor sets the final
sales price and that price to me and you if at all will be different
than to an op. My mate called up Sterns UK dist. and got a good price
acting as an operator compared to the retail price offered to home
buyers. Costco is a home buyers network and if a small op walks in
and says I want one or even two what deal will you give me? He's
gonna be paying what you and I pay. Then the ROI is lowered since he
pays the same price as individuals and can't sell at a better 2nd user
price as in the past.
Basically I feel this is a move away from op's and locations, pointed
directly at home buyers. Is this bad? Perhaps but where are we now?
is there gonna be anything better? I can't see op's suddenly going
out and buying 10's of pinball machines even if the economy changes
for the better but home buyers might.
Its clear that drastic measures are a foot ever since the layoffs and
if this is true then what we're seeing is nothing short of management
evolution, finally accepting a change of market place (IMHO).
Probably the last hand to play and hoping its a full house - good luck
Stern.
Ping
raddroxx
> "MrBally" <americannleag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
MUNSTER???
alexf
> Actually I have noticed. Since my livlihood depends on it, it isn't a hobby
> for me.
>
> The distributor network can be fixed. Direct sales is the last nail in the
> coffin.
>
> There is a home market for new pins. 1,000 units or less each year. Probably
> less now with the economy.
>
> And as far as electronics and cars, a TV, a refrigerator, a car, most people
> need these. Pinball is on the luxury list, most people can live without it.
> Comparing apples to oranges there.
>
> "Joe Grenuk" <jgre...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:13d4cb1c-93fa-41ef...@o13g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Lloyd, take a look around. Aren't those dead distributors over in that
> > corner? And aren't those terminally ill distributors over in that
> > corner? And look! Aren't those some more dead distributors over there?
> > And over there! That's a "RIP" tombstone for pinball on location,
> > isn't it?
>
> > Seems to me that Stern has already pronounced the distributor network
> > dead, and this is what they see as their best shot.
>
> > IMHO, there is a home market for new pins. Like Cliff said, Costco
> > does fine with multi-thousand $ electronics, and even CARS. I believe
> > the problem is that John Q. Public had/has no idea where to buy a pin,
> > or how much they cost. Everyone goes to Costco or Sam's. They will see
> > pins in those stores. KIDS will see pins in those stores, and they
> > will bug their parents for one. Those scenarios have never ever played
> > out with a Betson or Greater Southern. And they will see the prices,
> > and while they will be high, people will believe that the pricing is
> > fair and that they aren't getting screwed. My frame of reference is
> > Greater Southern. I would crap my pants if I was John Q. Public in
> > there looking for a pin. First, no prices on anything. Second, when
> > you do ask, prices all across the board...why is the price of $1800
> > for that Austin Powers half of what the Simpsons is selling for? Oh, I
> > see, it is because it is an older game! OK, how much is that Shrek
> > over there? $5395????!!!!! Yikes, why is that? Well, because it is
> > new. OH, I see...If I pay $5395 (plus $400 in tax), then in a couple
> > years it will be worth $3500 like that Simpsons? And don't forget
> > this one..."I was in here last week and Homer said that the Austin
> > Powers was $1500, why is it $1800 today?" That's because the sales
> > guy gets to keep everything over $1400 for the pin, that's why.
>
> > Seems to me, again, that the distributors are already dead and REALLY
> > dead to the home market...homeowners wanting a pin have obviously
> > looked and reserached hard and landed on Jack. Think about that...why
> > would a homeowner in Atlanta go buy from some character in NJ, rather
> > than from Greater Southern, right here in town? Well, price would be a
> > big factor...$1500 less on a new Stern compared to what Greater
> > Southern charged. Without being burdened by facts, I would bet that
> > Jack sells more pins to the home market than the entire distributor
> > base in the whole damn country, because that's what distributors
> > do...the distribute at wholesale, and they run a (bad) retail business
> > "on the side". And location would be another factor. Costco's are
> > where people are. Duh. Distributors are where the rent was cheap, AKA
> > where the people aren't.
>
> > If I am Stern, I see good old Jack moving loads of boxes to
> > homeowners, and I see distributors not paying bills and not buying,
> > and I think to myself: "Self, if Jack ItalianName can sell XXXXXX
> > boxes, I bet Costco can sell 5 x XXXXXX.
>
> > Again, my frame of reference is one dead distributor. And I don't miss
> > them a bit. Why it was a little convenient to be able to hop on the
> > Harley on a nice day and cruise over for those three rubbers I was
> > short to finish my project of the week, I damn sure won't miss that $6
> > invoice for three 2.5" white rubbers....
>
> > Just my $.02!
I agree 100% with Lloyd. When companies start "whoring themselves out"
to the retail market, it's usually a last ditch effort to keep the
doors open a little longer. Stern has a long established relationship
with their distributors. Those distributors are the ones that kept
them going all these years. They are suffering in these times just as
much as Stern. Stern just alienated them by going direct, and most
remainging distributors will likely dump them now. I think most in the
group are thinking like an end consumer. Yes it's nice to be able to
go into Costco and buy a machine but the whole business model has been
damaged. I am not saying that Stern can't have some success selling to
consumers but you can't go back on what damage has been done.
Alex
chuck
> http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=pinba...
>
> Just wondering. Also has anyone tried to use Costco to price match
> with a distributer yet? Seems to me the Costco prices are the going
> rate for the new games.
I think Stern selling through Costco and Sams is great. For the
uninformed consumer they can now pick up a pin for less than list
price which I believe is a substantial $1000 savings. If Costco sells
one per store thats an additional 365 units stern can move. And a high
percentage of these units will probably be customers that normally
wouldn't buy a pin at all. I will still buy through my favorite
distrib to save money. And other people here can buy from their
favorite distributors.
I remember when you could buy stern pins from tons of places for
3200-3300 bucks. Then one of the larger distribs complained about the
competition and the pricing model changed. Pins went up 500 bucks
overnight. I don't think that move helped new pin sales at all. I
imagine it reduced sales overall. Maybe not by a lot but when you're
talking about small runs every unit counts. So I would argue that
fewer distributors has hurt stern. In this market I would rather see
pin prices come down, market penetration go up, and overall sales
increase. The issue is saving pinball or continuing to allow a few
distributors to make long dollars as the market is dying. You know
where I stand ;-)
Ricker
I love the idea of a major chain distributing pinball machines. It can
only help with the exposure. I checked the Canadian website but Costco
is not distributing pins there yet, only in the states for now.
John Bigbooty
Mark
Atlanta GA
Lloyd Olson
thinking of was a gentleman that was big in these parts in the slot and
gambling pinball days.
"raddroxx" <radd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8da4ee85-c082-4c84...@p28g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Joe Grenuk
And if it weren't a dinosaur, that big op that was going to take his
$5 million somewhere else would run into the same thing there, and
there, and there. That kind of behavior, if it is true, is bad for
pinball. The distributor sisn't get to sell a game to the small op
because the big op is pissed. Stern doesn't get to sell another game
cause the big op is pissed, and John Q Public and his kids don't get
to play the game at the location that the little op was going to put
it, and I don't get to buy it from that little op when he is done with
it. Only guy that wins in that scenario is the big pissed op. And with
all due respect, screw him. :) That isn't business, it is thuggery
(note the bomb).
To the guy that talked about "Whoring it up" in retail as a last gasp,
let me take you back to the golden years of cellular phones. There
were no retail stores. There were "Agents" and "SuperAgents" and
"Master Agents"...they were distributors. And like Stern's problem
today, they weren't selling enough product at the retail level and
they were trying to control distribution. And these distributors got
real pissed when a cellular company signed up Joe's Cellular Company
to sell their stuff, and the big agents said "Get rid of Joe, or I
start selling for your competitor"...sound familiar?
So, the cellular companies said enough, and they started opening their
own company-owned retail stores. And they started selling through
Circuit City, Crazy Eddies, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Kmart, WalMart,
Sam's, BJ's, Macy's, HiFI Buys, HH Gregg, Fry's, and even Costco. I
have been out of wireless for a few years now, and I am not crisp on
the %'s, but I would guess that 75-85% of all wireless phones are sold
today direct by the carriers at retail. I know that % was zero while
the distributor strategy was in place.
The wireless carriers recognized that the distributor model was not
going to generate sufficient volumes of sales, so they broke the mold.
It was a way for them to take cost out of their business, diversify
the hell out of their risk of having too many sales from one agent
(the big op), drive their costs down, increase exposure, leverage
advertising and marketing costs, and ultimately drive the retail price
down to the consumer so that they would sell more phones and more
minutes....kind of like the Costo price of $3995 vs a distributor's
$5295 for the same game in the same new box.
Joe
MrBally
> Good guess, not right but good guess. Pretty funny too. No the name I was
> thinking of was a gentleman that was big in these parts in the slot and
> gambling pinball days.
>
>
> news:8da4ee85-c082-4c84...@p28g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Here's a name for you. I saw Herman's cousin some months ago at a movie
> > theater late at night. Know which Herman ?
>
> MUNSTER???
You got me on that one LTG. Si Redd never operated up there that I can
recall and Herman is not in his name.
alexf
I respect your insight and experience but I'm not sure you can compare
cell phones to pinball machines. It seems everybody thinks they need a
cell phone and most can afford one. That was a huge market just
waiting to get tapped. $4000 Pinball machines are/were designed as
commercial equipment. To alienate your long established distributor
network to gain a few sales to small time ops and hobbyists seems like
an act of desperation. I wouldn't mind being wrong though. I (like
most here) really would like to see Stern continue on with great
success.
Alex
DiscoDuck
1) Obviously Stern is changing their point-of-sale because what they
have is NOT working right. If they were still selling 10k pins per
year through the distributors they probably would only do that. Maybe
this means Stern is in trouble. But it definatly means they are trying
to adapt. If the distributors are dying, and the ops are dying, then
its time for Stern to make a new business model. Everyone else will
still buy pinball machines if thats what their customers want.
2) I have seen a countless number of posts since I have started with
this newsgroup with people complaining about the lack of marketing
pinball gets. Going with Costco can only help that. Normal people will
see that pinball machines still exist and *gasp* can be purchased by
the general public. While this may be a long shot, maybe this is the
beginning of the 'future' of pinball. New marketing with high exposure
point-of-sales.
3)Maybe small business owners like a bar will try to be their own
operators, since they now have access to something they previously
thought was inaccessable
Just my 1.5 cents
kbliznick
> 1) Obviously Stern is changing their point-of-sale because what they
> 2) I have seen a countless number of posts since I have started with
> this newsgroup with people complaining about the lack of marketing
> pinball gets. Going with Costco can only help that.....
maybe this is the
> beginning of the 'future' of pinball.
Exactly right. This will hopefully at first drive the home sales
market and then in turn drive more demand for locations.
As these games go into game rooms and garages the neighborhood kids
will play them and create more exposure outside of what we have
currently. In turn when these kids get older they will now know what a
pinball machine is and play them on location as well.
The biggest problem I see with more sales into the general home is the
maintanance and upkeep. Who is going to service all of these pins. At
least these should be more trouble free than buying used busted games
from ops. Scoring bargains on HUO pins will certainly increase with
this direct to home sales.
Chris Murray
You know the Small Business liquor stores, doughnut shops, cleaners,
pizza and burger joints and such.
I think these places that buy in bulk at the Big Box stores are more
likely to put a machine on premesis just by seeing one in person than
to seek out an Opeator or Distributor to get one.
There is straight cash to be made while people hang around for orders
and stuff, even their delivery drivers would coin up while doing
nothing.
Does anyone think the op's are loading up many small business' with
one or two machines. I doubt it. No big profit to be made, why bother.
I remember when most all 7-11's had one pin sitting right next to the
door, now they don't want people hanging around the store or it plain
old cuts into retail space for merchandise.
The only place I find more than one machine now is at bowling alleys
and they are getting few and far between as well.
Company break rooms might be another place that the Costco machines
end up. These are places that would not seek them out other wise.
If you look at the size of costco/sam's network around the country,
that could be a lot of little sales, NOT including the home market.
--Chris Murray
Flipper City Phoenix
> On Jul 13, 5:36 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
>
> >
How is a first time buyer/family going to know how to put it together
& get out all the bugs?
I know a few operators that when they get a new pin, they run it for a
few days to get the bugs out.
What happens when it breaks down?
Local Mtn coin comes out & repairs it under warranty?
Carrol
John Zitterkopf
> People are at costco to save money on food and stuff. Wrong crowd to be
> the distributor network for nothing ?
That was the silliest thing I heard today.
Speaking for myself; I bought a $6k Plasma TV back in the day... recently a
4K 50" LCD... think it was two xmases ago.
I think you haven't spent enough time infront of a costco to make a
statement like that.
CostCo instore displays are certainly a big win for Stern.
IF they ever make an Star Trek Pin; Costco.com will be the first place I go
to order.
Hammer5550
> door, now they don't want people hanging around the store or it plain
> old cuts into retail space for merchandise.
Man those were the days, I remember during college me and my brother
worked at the same factory, and everyday at lunch we would go to the
7-11 down the street and play a game of pinball. Now you can't even
find a 7-11 around here anymore, let alone a pinball machine to play.