Aussies Race to Produce the First Pinball machine Custom Built in Australia in 25 Years!
Vegemite Nick
the title! ;) It's all in good fun.
My friend Christian ("nuggy" around here) is building a custom
machine. This is no "paint up an old SS and use the original rules" re-
invention, but a custom built scratch designed machine with its own
rule set, animations and play field design.
I have been unofficially appointed to some important roles:
1) Parts acquisition - mainly because I have accounts at a few of the
parts suppliers and "nuggy" hates ordering overseas; But we've
scrounged a few other bits from around my place, including an old
apron featured in the shots (soon to be powder coated); a couple of
old PC's I had found "spare" at the office, and an outhole kicker I
had kicking (!) around;
2) Game theme advice - this mainly consists of listening to all his
ideas and saying "good nuggy" coz if I actually try to suggest
something he looks at me like I'm an idiot (which is something I am
used to anyway ;).
There's some pictures and sounds sitting here waiting for me to sort
through them and create a web page, but if anyone is interested please
take a look http://www.users.on.net/~spaners/Coconut%20Island/
Comments and criticisms welcome! After all, it's nuggy's baby so I
won't be offended at all!
The system intended to run this is pinmame. The software is about 90%
complete.
Here's the problem - the output stage to drive the lamps and solenoids
etc relies on using the Hwpinmame board ( http://www.pinmame-hw.com/
) but emailing those guys gets no response.
A helpful RGPer (Anthony Kapolka) put us onto http://acgamesystems.com/
where the boards seem available, and he had actually bought and used
two of them. Trouble is I have emailed the site three times with no
reply. Anthony kindly agreed to email them as well (in case my email
was getting caught up) but he hasn't heard back either so looks like
nothing happening there.
Without this board the project is stalled. So - anyone buy one of
these and never get around to using it? Or maybe some other contact
details?
Come on guys, help us to win the Race to Produce the First Pinball
machine Custom Built in Australia in 25 Years!
Cheers,
Nick
Virt
Sorry I can't help with the board, but I'd be interested to know how
Pinmane will run the machine. Are you saying you'll boot up Windows
and then run Pinmame to actually drive the electronics and DMD...?
Vegemite Nick
Virt, I'll get nuggy to post on that. In a nutshell I think the answer
is yes, but nuggy will be able to do some technical explanation
hopefully tomorrow on this thread. He tried explaining it to me,
like:
Nuggy: "Simply put, the PC... (add highly technical explanation
here)"
Nick: "That's great, I was with you all the way up to "Simply" but
then you lost me"
;)
tomca...@gmail.com
pinmame and can be used to drive solenoids & lamps. Perhaps that is
his plan? Although I don't know how it would work with a different
board.
Lloyd Olson
exhibit. So Wayne already won the race. The game started as a Judge Dredd I
believe, it was posted here before and had pictrues posted somewhere, which
I don't know if they are still out there. LTG :)
"Vegemite Nick" <pin...@thistledown.com.au> wrote in message
news:1172580395.0...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Vegemite Nick
> Wayne's company made a one of custom machine a year or two back for some
> exhibit. So Wayne already won the race. The game started as a Judge Dredd I
> believe, it was posted here before and had pictrues posted somewhere, which
> I don't know if they are still out there. LTG :)
>
>
> news:1172580395.0...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Not out to start a war with Wayne or about Wayne, but couldn't resist
> > the title! ;) It's all in good fun.
>
> > My friend Christian ("nuggy" around here) is building a custom
> > machine. This is no "paint up an old SS and use the original rules" re-
> > invention, but a custom built scratch designed machine with its own
> > rule set, animations and play field design.
>
> > I have been unofficially appointed to some important roles:
>
> > 1) Parts acquisition - mainly because I have accounts at a few of the
> > parts suppliers and "nuggy" hates ordering overseas; But we've
> > scrounged a few other bits from around my place, including an old
> > apron featured in the shots (soon to be powder coated); a couple of
> > old PC's I had found "spare" at the office, and an outhole kicker I
> > had kicking (!) around;
>
> > 2) Game theme advice - this mainly consists of listening to all his
> > ideas and saying "good nuggy" coz if I actually try to suggest
> > something he looks at me like I'm an idiot (which is something I am
> > used to anyway ;).
>
> > There's some pictures and sounds sitting here waiting for me to sort
> > through them and create a web page, but if anyone is interested please
>
> > Comments and criticisms welcome! After all, it's nuggy's baby so I
> > won't be offended at all!
>
> > The system intended to run this is pinmame. The software is about 90%
> > complete.
>
> > Here's the problem - the output stage to drive the lamps and solenoids
> > etc relies on using the Hwpinmame board ( http://www.pinmame-hw.com/
> > ) but emailing those guys gets no response.
>
> > where the boards seem available, and he had actually bought and used
> > two of them. Trouble is I have emailed the site three times with no
> > reply. Anthony kindly agreed to email them as well (in case my email
> > was getting caught up) but he hasn't heard back either so looks like
> > nothing happening there.
>
> > Without this board the project is stalled. So - anyone buy one of
> > these and never get around to using it? Or maybe some other contact
> > details?
>
> > Come on guys, help us to win the Race to Produce the First Pinball
> > machine Custom Built in Australia in 25 Years!
>
> > Cheers,
> > Nick
Ahhhh Lloyd - if it started as a JD then it's a **re-badging** so
doesn't qualify!
Cheers,
Nick
Lloyd Olson
done. LTG :)
"Vegemite Nick" <pin...@thistledown.com.au> wrote in message
news:1172607853.4...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
Abby Normal
Vegemite Nick
> Looks interesting, what's the theme about? Is it based on anything?
Well, it's based on something from his childhood. I'm not sure how
much of that I'm gonna say, I'll get nuggy to explain. But Coconut
Island is the name, and moving the grass is the game!
Cheers,
Nick
nuggy
hey,its actually a lot simpler, i must have confused nick! the actual
controller that detects switches and implements the rule set is a VB6
program i have created. It is written using DirectX, which for those
that dont know gives me full control of input and udio/video- this is
extremely fast, i have a loop to slow things at the moment, and thats
uncompiled! the active X and the associated output board are driven
from NPC(nuggy pinball controller), so barebones XP (directx8
standard) and boot NPC from startup.
nuggy
> exhibit.
you are correct lloyd, it was a water saving theme for school
programs, alas converted!
nuggy
spot on, thats why i really need the original hwpinmame board, i am
not smart enough to write an active X control for my own design (i can
do the electronics)
Vegemite Nick
Nuggy, maybe a little about the theme, but more importantly the rule
set, bonuses and jackpots etc would be interesting. I'll copy it
accross to the web site when I progress that.
Cheers,
Nick
lightguy
Do something along the lines of hunting crocodiles
Computer driven;
This is the REAL future of pinball.
While trying to resurect a last design of one of the failed pinball
companies, my research led me to people who can write a Virtual game,
play it virtually, then with that can actually load it unto a computer
which creates the operating rules and software.This in turn reacts to
switch signals, lights the lights, plays sounds, the whole Enchilada.
Dont like a rule/feature ? Go into the program and point and click it
away. Add more. Custom build the rules for your machine.
It was a do-able project but too much involvement of my time, Plus I
dont have the smarts to pull it off.
I can see this as a step beyond pin 2000.
Good luck Veggie and nuggy.
Craig Tiano
It appears the guy who was going to build the hwpinmame boards didn't
get enough interest to fill his minimum 20(?) board quantity. So, if
you want to go that route, you'll have to build your own.
An alternative route would be to buy a digital io board for your pc,
which would come with a driver, and then cobble together a board with
solid state relays or triacs to deliver the high voltage to the coils,
lights, etc... I used a board from measurement computing in my own
custom pin. The one I used is a PCI-DIO48 with 48 individually
controlled circuits. It lists for almost $200, but you can find these
relatively frequently on ebay for under $50. National makes a similar
board. I was given a fully populated 48 port ssr board ($200
unpopulated), and it was literally all plug-and-play using their
insta-cal driver. If I was to do it again, I'd move up to the 96 port
version, since I maxed out my controlled circuit count by having many
lamp inserts that needed individual lights.
Yet another alternative route would be to write a driver for a pin-2k
driver board, which would make you a God in the eyes of many who have
tried and failed...
Craig
On 27 Feb 2007 13:28:46 -0800, "'nuggy'" <ge...@pipeline.com.au>
wrote:
AL
There is a company called Crestron that makes environmental and media
control systems. They have products that interface with PCs that can
accept swicth matrix inputs, run logic and provide general purpose
contact closures that can be easily adapted to solenoid interfaces.
Older products (IIP IIM) pop up on ebay frequently.
If requested, I would be happy to offer any engineering support in the
areas of logic, power and I/O.
Best Regards,
AL
Vegemite Nick
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey pin-monkey-pal, didn't know that your obvious expertise in all
those other areas might extend to something like this - sorry for not
asking you earlier! :(
Wow - not just a first rate biographical short-storiest but all master
of all things electron related - you are the complete modern man
(well, as close as you can get for a primate on your personal stage of
the evolutionary tree that is ;)
I'll be in touch!
Thanks,
Nick
nuggy
> > > hey,its actually a lot simpler, i must have confused nick! the actual
> > > controller that detects switches and implements the rule set is a VB6
> > > program i have created. It is written using DirectX, which for those
> > > that dont know gives me full control of input and udio/video- this is
> > > extremely fast, i have a loop to slow things at the moment, and thats
> > > uncompiled! the active X and the associated output board are driven
> > > from NPC(nuggy pinball controller), so barebones XP (directx8
> > > standard) and boot NPC from startup.
>
> > There is a company called Crestron that makes environmental and media
> > control systems. They have products that interface with PCs that can
> > accept swicth matrix inputs, run logic and provide general purpose
> > contact closures that can be easily adapted to solenoid interfaces.
> > Older products (IIP IIM) pop up on ebay frequently.
>
> > If requested, I would be happy to offer any engineering support in the
> > areas of logic, power and I/O.
>
and out of the controller to access the third party software to
address the output board, and as you say youll have to engineer some
more robust output stages and perhaps a small oneshot for them all.
thats the beauty of the hwpinmame board, this is all done with a
blanking facility incorperated already + the activeX control is easy
to drive from 'NPC'
lightguy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Once more, in English
Just kidding , I too was lost at "Simply"
AL
> and out of the controller to access the third party software to
> address the output board, and as you say youll have to engineer some
> more robust output stages and perhaps a small oneshot for them all.
> thats the beauty of the hwpinmame board, this is all done with a
> blanking facility incorperated already + the activeX control is easy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nuggy,
They did offer a simple interface that would interpret ASCII
Characters or strings and drive GPI/O interfaces. Extensive Boolean
Logic circuits can be programmed through a quasi-proprietary "Visual
C" interface. If a DMD wasn't involved, the entire circuit could occur
on their board.
Another architecture to consider might be Heathkit's 6800 processor
educational development platform. There is extensive, readable (sorry
Nick, not too many pictures) documentation on decoder circuitry,
Instruction sets and machine language programming. (Write your own
game ROMs)
It sounds as if your project might be past these stages though. If so,
Please count on me for any support you feel that I can offer.
Cheers,
AL
nuggy
here we go!
when i was a youngster we had a pretty full of himself neighbour. His
best trick was to wear speedo's (think swimmer) which were bright red
and cover himself in 'Coconut oil', now thats fine except then came
the mower?!
so generally we came up with an island as the base and of course
theres the 'bar' and the 'casino' and the unfriendly natives!
my mum use to remark that he was 'showing himself off again' and
laugh. there are lots of little stories which will be in the flyer and
many modes are based around them, but a bit of a teaser would be
'mower madness' which is a sort of combo mode that requires completion
of up and back combo's. 'Coconut frenzy' and 'when terrorists attack'
are all implemented and tested to a degree by running the machine
state wise(going thru the motions) jackpots are all addable during
mode0 (regular game).NPC software allows almost INFInITE complexity of
ruleset and the wizard mode is 3 parts long if you know what i
mean(its called eruption by the way), i can transfer all switch
variables and randomisation to any modes except attract and test.
so far i can do anything ive thought of so far!the standard (no modes)
controller handles tilt (and under multiball) extraballs (multiple)
auto increasing of difficulty, ie multiball lock is harder each time.
Virt
My idea for a custom pin was to use a PC running Visual Basic for the
software, outputting to an LCD in the backbox to give full motion
video (instead of an orange DMD). There'd be so much data storage
that I could have multiple video and audio clips for each gameplay
event, and avoid the 'saminess' of playing the same ruleset over and
over.
I can write the rules/program in VB easil. What I've not been certain
about is how to control the solonoids, register switch activations,
and control lamps.
I'm sure there would be some kind of board out there which would use
the keyboard port to interpret switches as keyboard presses, and pass
ascii characters to and from the program. But I haven't found it yet.
nuggy
also in wave form +32 midi compositions up to 128k long!
im using an lcd monitor 15" and masking the top off put a green filter
in front of it and inverse the video image, looks sweet!
nuggy
oh and the hard drive shits down after loading all runs in 128meg sdram
FritzThePin
nuggy,
what are you using to "code" or write the gameflow/gameplay modes. is
it a Pinmame/Visual Pinball table running Pinmame HW?
sounds like you have everything except for teh physical firing off of
solenoids? Do you have triggers working?
thanks for the info about the project so far, super interested in its
progress
mike
Vegemite Nick
Nuggy said:
oh and the hard drive shits down after loading all runs in 128meg
sdram
Nuggy Robot Translator 3000 said:
oh and the hard drive --shuts-- down after loading all runs in 128meg
sdram
;)
Mr Pinball Australia
One for Jet for the Cold hard Bitch Video Clip
One For Government, Splashball
Neither really count, as they were original games modified
Wayne Gillard
The Pinball Factory
www.pinball.com
nuggy
no pinmame whatsoever, i use my own little command set that i populate
the switch table VS mode,sounds and text/dmd is set in the rule and
then 'update does all the work :)
triggers all working for up to 72 switches X 15 modes = total
combinations.
yes just the driver output stage reqd, its actually a lot closer to
playing then it looks, one of the jpegs shows a screenshot of NPC in
development mode!
Ron Strom
Virt.A...@gmail.com says...
--
Ron -- CARGPB7 -- (Change hot to ice to email)
nuggy
> In article <1172626674.844776.177...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> Virt.Atomi...@gmail.com says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
i cant find anything related to output control here, inputs are a
hacked encoder and its fine.
Craig Tiano
>I'm sure there would be some kind of board out there which would use
>the keyboard port to interpret switches as keyboard presses, and pass
>ascii characters to and from the program. But I haven't found it yet.
ultimarc i-pac. Get the i-pac4 to get 56 inputs. It plugs in like a
keyboard.
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
Craig
Vegemite Nick
Thanks for the comments Abby, appreciate the interest.
Regards,
Nick
Vegemite Nick
> In article <1172626674.844776.177...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
Thanks for the lead Ron!
Regards,
Nick
Ron Strom
pin...@thistledown.com.au says...
else pointed out to me that their board is good for inputs but not
outputs. I forgot about that.
I haven't been to their site for awhile so maybe they make more stuff
now.
Vegemite Nick
> In article <1172647256.837251.185...@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> pinn...@thistledown.com.au says...
Well Ron, as you might have guessed that side of things is firmly with
nuggy. You could have told me there was a board at Radio Shack that
did the job and I'd probably be trying to order it now! ;)
Regards
Nick
Virt
How are you doing the playfield/inserts?
My idea is to completely cover the whitewood playfield with a layer of
durable transparent plastic.
This has two advantages in my view...
1. I can cut holes in the whitewood for lights, and not worry about
having to having exactly matching/fitting plastic inserts.
2. The artwork on the playfield can be done as a big sticker. It will
always be 100% protected from scratching. And if the playfield ever
gets too scuffed, I can simply replace the plastic over the playfield.
What do you think?
nuggy
im trying to steer clear of decals at this stage, i will be using a
tiny router (it looks like an angle grinder) and changing its base
plate to about 1 " diameter.
then some templates will be created for the 4 common inserts im trying
to get.
im aiming for construction quality close to wpc class.
my concern with a platic overlay is that ball dynamics may be altered
to much?
Cliffy
efforts :) I have literally buckets of parts, em stuff and solid state
like coils. mechanisms like catapults (taxi), slingshots, ball ejectors,
metal ball guides from all kinds of games in all kinds of shapes. If you
need anything for that project just let me know and I'll see what I can
give ya. That upper pf looks similar to TZ, I like it!
Vegemite Nick wrote:
> Not out to start a war with Wayne or about Wayne, but couldn't resist
> the title! ;) It's all in good fun.
>
> My friend Christian ("nuggy" around here) is building a custom
> machine. This is no "paint up an old SS and use the original rules" re-
> invention, but a custom built scratch designed machine with its own
> rule set, animations and play field design.
>
> I have been unofficially appointed to some important roles:
>
> 1) Parts acquisition - mainly because I have accounts at a few of the
> parts suppliers and "nuggy" hates ordering overseas; But we've
> scrounged a few other bits from around my place, including an old
> apron featured in the shots (soon to be powder coated); a couple of
> old PC's I had found "spare" at the office, and an outhole kicker I
> had kicking (!) around;
>
> 2) Game theme advice - this mainly consists of listening to all his
> ideas and saying "good nuggy" coz if I actually try to suggest
> something he looks at me like I'm an idiot (which is something I am
> used to anyway ;).
>
> There's some pictures and sounds sitting here waiting for me to sort
> through them and create a web page, but if anyone is interested please
> take a look http://www.users.on.net/~spaners/Coconut%20Island/
>
> Comments and criticisms welcome! After all, it's nuggy's baby so I
> won't be offended at all!
>
> The system intended to run this is pinmame. The software is about 90%
> complete.
>
> Here's the problem - the output stage to drive the lamps and solenoids
> etc relies on using the Hwpinmame board ( http://www.pinmame-hw.com/
> ) but emailing those guys gets no response.
>
> A helpful RGPer (Anthony Kapolka) put us onto http://acgamesystems.com/
> where the boards seem available, and he had actually bought and used
> two of them. Trouble is I have emailed the site three times with no
> reply. Anthony kindly agreed to email them as well (in case my email
> was getting caught up) but he hasn't heard back either so looks like
> nothing happening there.
>
> Without this board the project is stalled. So - anyone buy one of
> these and never get around to using it? Or maybe some other contact
> details?
>
> Come on guys, help us to win the Race to Produce the First Pinball
> machine Custom Built in Australia in 25 Years!
>
> Cheers,
> Nick
>
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
nuggy
> I really like what you and Nuggy are doing here Nick! I applaud your
> efforts :) I have literally buckets of parts, em stuff and solid state
> like coils. mechanisms like catapults (taxi), slingshots, ball ejectors,
> metal ball guides from all kinds of games in all kinds of shapes. If you
> need anything for that project just let me know and I'll see what I can
> give ya. That upper pf looks similar to TZ, I like it!
Cliffy, you are far too generous, as usual you have pulled a rabbit
out of the hat. We were having a LOT of issues getting some basic
underplayfield assy's, nick will discuss with u the 'wish list' and
any way you can help is extremely appreciated.
Thanks again and glad you enjoyed the pics,
regards
Christian
Vegemite Nick
>
> > Comments and criticisms welcome! After all, it's nuggy's baby so I
> > won't be offended at all!
>
> > The system intended to run this is pinmame. The software is about 90%
> > complete.
>
> > Here's the problem - the output stage to drive the lamps and solenoids
> > etc relies on using the Hwpinmame board ( http://www.pinmame-hw.com/
> > ) but emailing those guys gets no response.
>
> > where the boards seem available, and he had actually bought and used
> > two of them. Trouble is I have emailed the site three times with no
> > reply. Anthony kindly agreed to email them as well (in case my email
> > was getting caught up) but he hasn't heard back either so looks like
> > nothing happening there.
>
> > Without this board the project is stalled. So - anyone buy one of
> > these and never get around to using it? Or maybe some other contact
> > details?
>
> > Come on guys, help us to win the Race to Produce the First Pinball
> > machine Custom Built in Australia in 25 Years!
>
> > Cheers,
> > Nick
>
> --
> Cliffy - CARGPB2
> A passion for pinball!http://www.passionforpinball.com
Hey Cliffy, you don't know how timely that offer is! I just got off
the phone from my last lead without success. Rather than try and buy
all the under field mechs new (which would be expensive) I've been
trying to source an old field with a lot of under field mechs in place
to act as a donor. Well I've lost track of the number of calls now,
each helpful, not got, try so and so .... and each lead has failed to
produce anything. Down here with parts costly and the pin population
so much lower, seems **everything** gets stripped and re-used. Good
economics I guess, but I thought I might have scored one destroyed
field! The last lead was to a guy with a couple of machines that had
been through a fire (maybe they were a BK resto once? ;) but same
story, stripped bare recently. You can be sure I'll be emailing you!
PS - The position of the upper playfield is similar to TZ, but one
important difference is that it has been designed to allow you to see
past it to the back left corner, so that you never loose sight of the
ball. That back corner on TZ always irks me - I know the gumball
machine takes care of it, but being hidden doesn't appeal.
Thanks again,
Regards
Nick
Cliffy
Not at all! Honestly! Many of the parts I have were given to me by such
awesome pinball guys as Pete Fordahl (one of the absolute BEST guys to
ever know, pinball or not) and David Ainslie. These guys, among many
others, are the REAL generous chaps here. I'm just blessed to be able to
share this time around :)
Vegemite Nick
Well, what were turning out to be problems are all working out - this
group is just way too good!
Not only Cliffy's offer of some stuff, but a message from one of my
buddies from RGP offering some parts as well.
And another RGPer offering to do the web site for us. That'll save me
mucking about with my barely working knowledge in that area!
But not only that - the fellow who had the board we needed to dive the
lamps and solenoids saw the post and checked his spam bucket and has
now got back to me - board on its way!
I suspect that our new company (that I have privately named "Belly-up
Pinball") might get its proto out first at this rate...... ;)
I am working on nuggy to get him to add a mode where a crocodile
attacks the guy during mower multi-ball. ;)-
Thanks again all who have offered help.
Great people. Great hobby. Great fun!
Cheers,
Nick
Ron Strom
pin...@thistledown.com.au says...
Vegemite Nick
> In article <1172733140.908887.183...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> pinn...@thistledown.com.au says...
You'll have Karlzona after you with that anti-pussy attitude Ron! ;)
But **I love it**!!!!! I can hear the cat's screech now.. Hmm, makes
you wonder what else the lawnmower might be able to do too....
Nick
(Who actually loves animals.
But not in **that** way)
tomca...@gmail.com
> lamps and solenoids saw the post and checked his spam bucket and has
> now got back to me - board on its way!
Nick,
This is the pinmame-HW board? Any idea what happened to that project
overall?
Vegemite Nick
Not sure Tom. The boards we are getting were made by a guy not in the
project but to the specs of the project. The web site is still there,
but no-ones returning emails in the last six months, so your guess is
as good as mine.
Vegemite Nick
***Small update***
The photo's are now thumb nailed to make it a bit easier. I've have a
generous offer from an RGPer to do a nice site once we have a little
more to put up. Thanks Tom!
We picked up an old cab and head last night in good condition which
will save us cutting that out, thanks to Bumper Action in Melbourne
for donated that for free. That as well as letting us play Family Guy
- http://tinyurl.com/2c9x5c
Not going to get ahead of ourselves but maybe have sourced a trashed
field with a lot of the mechs we need - will let you know if that
comes off. Cliffy and AL, don't give those parts away yet!
Thanks again to all those that have emailed us with offer of help.
Unreal! Just one thing - nuggy's email @pipeline is **not** working
so if you have emailed him, he's not ignoring you! He should have anew
address available soon.
Regards,
Nick
Vegemite Nick
Yesterday we welded various ramps and guides, hopefully some pictures
on me swearing as I grab the wrong (hot) end of things will be on the
new web site shortly;
The HWpinmame boards arrived from Art Connor today, so in a week or so
we'll be able to properly play test the software in action;
Expecting the new web site to be ready to upload soon, and we'll
include links to footage of the game in action.
We are also working on the second proto, and this is going to be
something special! (I hope!!!!) Another resident RGPer **might** even
be involved in the playfield artwork - that'll add a real dimension to
this second game if it goes ahead. We hope that the second game will
really show case the software as it will carry some unique and readily
recognizable modes.......
Cheers,
Nick
http://www.users.on.net/~spaners/Coconut%20Island/
Lloyd Olson
"Vegemite Nick" <pin...@thistledown.com.au> wrote in message
news:1173751801....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...