Silk Screening question
Chris Woodruff
small silkscreen setup for doing small items like plastics and such. Then
I watched that "Hands on History" video (thanks again to all those that
made it available!) and it reinforced this notion for me.
Now there are a LOT of creative, inventive, intelligent people on RGP and I
HAVE to believe that I am missing something. So does anyone know what that
is? Is it that the color matching is tough? I've seen people mention
about picking up old pantene books so I would think that you could get the
color codes. Is the ink not sold anywhere in small amounts? Maybe you
have to buy 10+ gallons at a time so it is too expensive?
Cause what I'm thinking is to build a small wooden frame, get some form of
silkscreen material (pantyhose maybe? The video said they use nylon...)
and some thin material to use as a stencil for each color layer.
The biggest challenge I see would be dithering colors... but a lot of them
aren't really dithered. Separating the colors would be a LOT of work (as a
lot of the repro guys I'm sure would attest to) but it's possible.
Thoughts or Comments?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris Woodruff
news:ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com:
Okay, I found out a little more... check out these websites
http://www.amtechdisc.com/printspecs/silkscreen-process.htm
This company is explaining the process they go through for silkscreening
CD's.
http://departments.risd.edu/depts/ceramics/g1.html
This is from the Rhode Island school of design. They are talking about
making decals for ceramics but they use "light sensitive" materials as
opposed to using a vacuum. They list specific supplies and suppliers.
http://www.greatarrow.com/about/default2.asp
Not near as detailed, but they do greeting cards.
http://www.work-at-home.org/sreport/business-4/38.htm
This is more about starting a silkscreening business (which I am not
personally too interested in... IF I starting doing this I would be
willing to make extras for people but I'm not looking to quit my day job.
So this appears to be very doable... so why isn't anyone doing this (or
maybe they are and I just don't hear about them)?
c-ya
Chris
Bob Stemmler
combination of craft and technology. Yes, you can be a do-it yourself
silkscreen printer, but to do a quality job, you must use the proper
materials and tehniques. Building a frame is easy. The mesh that goes
into the frame is specifically designed for that application. The weave
of the mesh is directly related to the resolution of detail that they
will produce. A finer mesh will produce sharper detail. Also, there is
printing done using "spot" or "PANTONE" colors. These are colors that
are specifically formulated to match an existing standard. Pantone 185
RED for example is made by mixing 75 parts PANTONE warm red with 25
parts of PANTONE Rubine red. The type of printing used when there is
what you called "dithering" is known as 4-color process printing. In
this case, there will often be a base color of white printed first
(unless the substrait is already white) then there are the 4 process
colors put down in register, cyan, magenta, yellow and black. These
4-colors are blended together in register to reproduce the range of
colors available in the visible light spectrum. This is done by
separating the colors and printing a pattern of tiny dots of varying
size. If you wanted to print the PMS 185 refered to above, but wanted
to use 4-color process, you would actually print a combination on 100%
magenta and 100% yellow. A purple color would be a combination of cyan
and magenta, orange is magenta and yellow an so forth. This is where
the craft, proper materials, technology and techniques comes in. To get
the proper separation of colors that will accurately reproduce other
colors when subjected to all the variables present using your system.
Gene has done KISS and TAF, with good results and a lot of work, Fathom
Playfields are being worked on. But, I do not think this is something
you can get into cassually and expect to have perfect reproduction of
an original.
Bob Stemmler
Mike Purcell
I know its do able and probably pretty inexpensively as well.... for basic
stuff. Some sitems lend themselves to this more than others. Nice solid
colors like on the old plastics are just easier to do this way. What most
guys want thogh is TOP quality at rock bottom prices so everything has to be
done right, not with your wifes old nylons but with real photo quality
artwork burned onto an actual silk screen and properly stretched to avoid
any errors. This is not so inexpensive and with screens here costing about
$150 each to have made from the artwork, it can get expensive very fast!
Remember, one screen for each seperate color! But simple plastics with only
a few colors could still be done cheaply. Thought about it myself, but when
you see the pros do it.... well, I know it would take years to become good
enough to please any group of people and decades to please the RPGCABs!! :-)
Mike
"Chris Woodruff" <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com...
shabow
> I had been thinking for a while that it can't be THAT difficult to create a
> small silkscreen setup for doing small items like plastics and such. Then
> I watched that "Hands on History" video (thanks again to all those that
> made it available!) and it reinforced this notion for me.
You have to cut out the plastics also, I think the originals were made
with a die to cut them out vs. laser cutter/cam router, etc.
>
> Now there are a LOT of creative, inventive, intelligent people on RGP and I
> HAVE to believe that I am missing something. So does anyone know what that
> is? Is it that the color matching is tough? I've seen people mention
> about picking up old pantene books so I would think that you could get the
> color codes. Is the ink not sold anywhere in small amounts? Maybe you
> have to buy 10+ gallons at a time so it is too expensive?
>
One problem is that the pantone books that are old are no longer a
true representative of the color you would get when you order it, it's
either faded or darker. (That's why pantone releases new books
periodically)
I think a lot of the difficulty encountered is that printmaking is an
art, not a science. There must be some factors involved that come
down to experience.
Silverballs
and start there.
Below is some info based on my experience silk-screening. Keep in mind is
has been almost 20 years since the last time that I silkscreened, so some of
my info could be dated.
You would need to find a supplier that sells silk-screening material. If
your lucky you will find a local one, check with big art suppliers.
Silk-screening is not as common as it was 20 years ago, I believe that this
is because much of what would have previously have been done with
silk-screening (or hand painting) can be done with computers.
Panty hose will not work. You need a cloth intended for silk-screening. Silk
is the most expensive but you can get polyester and it is more durable than
silk. I have never used nylon.
You need the right type of ink (paint) for the material that you are doing.
If you do not use the correct ink is will easily scrape off of the plastic.
I remember using an ink called something like "Plastisol" that was for use
on plastic, it actual bounded with the plastic and was very difficult to
scrape off. You can silkscreen with regular paint, I have used poster paint
to make paper banners. As mentioned, the ink should match the material. I
major problem with using paint is that it may not end up at solid as you
would want, it may be semi-translucent.
You can buy ink in small quantities, they come in tubes like paint that an
artist would use. Speed Ball is a brand name that come to mind. You can also
but it in quarts. A quarts is A LOT of silk-screening when you are talking
about small pieces like plastics. You are right, color matching would be an
issue.
The stencil can be created by various methods. Film (for the stencil) can be
hand cut for simple designs or it can be made with a photo process that
requires a positive of each color (the film will be the negative). The
stencil is adhered to the screen and later it can be removed from the screen
so that the screen can be reused. The film with be adhered with water, paint
thinner, lacquer thinner, etc. and then later removed with the same liquid
that is was applied with. If you don't reused the screen then you have to
make a screen (wood frame and all) for each color. The type of film that you
use is depended on the type of ink that you are using. If you use a water
based ink then you do not use a water based film, you might use a lacquer
based film for this.
It is possible to make a stencil (to use like a film) out of posted board.
This will work but the edges will not be sharp and the ink will easily run
under the edge.
I hope that some of this helps,
Tim
"Chris Woodruff" <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com...
Chris Woodruff
become an expert on Friday! :)
Actually I found a lot more info. eHow (which I have always considered
useless because I never found anything there) seems to have several
interesting documents about doing this type of thing. Already from what
I've learned from eHow and other sites do this.
Seems there are "light sensitive" materials you can use to make screens.
A lot of this isn't prohibitively expensive or difficult to use. I agree
that doing a photo type of image would be excessively difficult. But I'm
thinking more along the lines of things like my Str@nge Sc1ence sling...
cyan, yellow, white, black. Without looking I believe that is it. There
are a lot of items like this or only slightly more complicated.
Keep in mind - like I said I don't want to startup a business. I enjoy
the creative portions, making things from scratch, etc - doing something
like a Fathom playfield or a backglass? No F'in' way! That's in a whole
nother league and requires more skill/time/talent than I am able/willing
to invest!
Thanks for the responses everyone!
Chris
in news:1097070574....@k26g2000oda.googlegroups.com, "Bob
Silverballs
Chris Osborn
Chris Woodruff <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>I had been thinking for a while that it can't be THAT difficult to create a
>small silkscreen setup for doing small items like plastics and such. Then
>I watched that "Hands on History" video (thanks again to all those that
>made it available!) and it reinforced this notion for me.
I used to do silk screening in graphics class in high school. It was
done with a photographic process to get the image onto the silk. The
hard part is getting different colors registered. You have to make all
your frames exactly the same size, and then somehow get the image put
into exactly the same spot on all of them. Then you need to build a
jig that holds your frame and your material precisely.
Color separations and trapping can all be done on the
computer. Illustrator can do some of this for you, as long as the
artwork isn't too confusing for it. You can't use scans of the
original artwork, it all has to be recreated in a vector format in
order for it to work. Very time consuming.
--
See all the insanity of giant K'nex kinetic sculptures
Pictures, movies, and more! http://buildfest.com/
Coming soon: An arcade cabinet made of K'nex!
MPG
straightforward as first impressions suggest. It's not too hard to do
silkscreening on a fairly small-scale basis with simple designs (I
made some silkscreened sunglasses pouches in secondary school, and
silkscreen prints of an abstract picture in sixth form), but doing
detail is mighty hard. In industrial silkscreening, you don't use a
template cut out of card or plastic (like my efforts in school), but
instead the screen is soaked in a photosensitive material which
hardens when exposed to ultraviolet light. The "stencils" are created
by projecting a negative of the artwork for each particular colour
separation onto separate screens coated with the photosensitive
emulsion, then washing away the non-hardened, unexposed areas to allow
the ink to pass through when printed. Getting a good level of detail
without splotchiness or bleeding if you were to use paper, card or
plastic stencils would be a nightmare. As for getting Pantone inks in
small quantities, I can't say how easy that would be - I know the inks
I used in school were in smallish tubs, but they weren't proper
Pantone inks. As far as I can gather, a lot of the repro guys (the
ones that don't use crummy inkjet or laser printed artwork) commission
professional printers to do it properly (not cheap, what with minimum
orders, setup fees and such). I'm pretty sure that if there were a way
to reproduce pinball artwork cheaply and effectively, people would be
doing it already. :(
Matt
====
Chris Woodruff <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com>...
Kerry Stair
item means all 10 screens have to hit dead on. In other words registration
has to be perfect. Very hard to eyeball that. It take a machine to do it.
Setting it up takes a while. Setup time may be triple the run time . . . so
small runs are expensive. A professional printing company can turn things
out pretty easy but do it yourselfers have a different set of obstacles . .
. but it can be done . . .
--
Kerry Stair
Mantis Amusements
"MPG" <tige...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a61eb2de.04100...@posting.google.com...
playfield renovations
It's all possible. if we can get enought business, Playfield
Renovation will start printing some plastics and other items needed.
Our artist comes from a screen printing background. email us a
response and let us know what you would be looking for.
in...@playfieldrenovations.com
Chris Rhinehart
Playfield Renovations
CornCob
My friend works for a graphic design company in Toronto. He said they
use Photoshop for there image work, it will even tell you what colors
are needed like using the pantene references. It also supports
half-tone generation of various types for color gradients.
Ink type is my question? I mean Ron Hazelton did say the playfields
were sanded and then a layer of lacquer applied. I also watched the
movie, yes it's sad twice over but I feel that theres alot missing
which we did not see like plate creation. Maybe those going to Expo
this year can get some more details, ink types, mesh count etc.
Maybe someone could figure it out and then help all of us for the
RGP's BIG IDEA project.
Ping
Chris Woodruff <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com>...
madsygrl
Things to be considered...
-Getting the image color separated
A feat in itself without the original file or color keys to manipulate
-Getting the image burned onto your "pantyhose" to be printed.
(There are chemicals involved to burn the image into the screen. The
ink falls through the burned area. That's screen printing.)
-Each screen must register nearty perfectly, requiring a setup that
would accomodate this.
The plastic must'nt move and each color screen must be put int eh
exact same position for all colors to register.
Unless you're a real purist and have a lot of time on your hands, you
can scan and print out/make your own or just buy some repros. To set
up screens for one-offs is just silly. I can scan, retouch and print
out plastic scans that are almost perfect. Without fuzzy edges and
colors near perfect. (Yes it takes hours and a few test prints)
Printed with a color laser printer, on transparencies, they look
great. Search for Dan Wilga's Plastics Repro info for more info. This
also works great to replace artwork on drop targets, as I've done for
several machines with Label paper and mylar.
If you REALLY want to get involved in this...
Buy a do-it-yourself kit at a craft of hobby store. They are around
$50-$100 and include chemicals, screen and cleaners. I think its by
Speedball, the pen and ink people.
Color matching is a whole different story. Pantone inks are expensive,
and you need an up-to-date book to get an accurate read, which will
run you about $100 just for the book.
Silk screening is tedious and rough on the wrists. My husband was a
screener by trade and got out of it.
Any other way I can rain on your parade? :-)
Chris Woodruff <wood...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ck0i72$cft$1...@news01.intel.com>...
Chris Woodruff
in news:nbCdnQOiafM...@comcast.com, "Silverballs"
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>Thoughts or Comments?
You do realize there are several people who do this already, don't you?
Yes, it is entirely possible to reproduce plastics this way. Classes in
it have been taught at past Pinball Wizards Conventions in fact.
Why not give it a try?
-Iain
Steve Corley
was right.
steve
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:44:31 GMT, Iain Odlin <i_o...@hotmail.com>
wrote: