1951 Gottlieb Mermaid: $15,600 & 19 Bids--Reserve Still Not Met

[NM]

Condition appears to be amazing.

IPDB states there were 600 units produced (confirmed).

Seller states very few of them survive today.

Just curious about input from the Woodrail experts as to how many are
believed actually survived, any past relevant comps you know of, and
your valuation assessment.

Ebay link:

http://tinyurl.com/ckc8th4


--
NM

Current: AFM, CFTBL, HUO FGY, MB, NGG, HUO SM, SS, STTNG, TAF, ToM, TRON
LE, TSPP, TZ, WH2O, W?D, '54 Gottlieb Stage Coach.
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[goatdan]

On Apr 30, 8:11 pm, NM <rp272...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> Condition appears to be amazing.
>
> IPDB states there were 600 units produced (confirmed).
>
> Seller states very few of them survive today.
>
> Just curious about input from the Woodrail experts as to how many are
> believed actually survived, any past relevant comps you know of, and
> your valuation assessment.

I'm not a woodrail expert, but I believe that the last one that wasn't
1/3rd as nice sold for at least $10k. I'd be surprised if this one
doesn't hit $20k. It looks NICE.

[mick the quick]

There was one that sold on Ebay a couple of years ago for around 15
grand. this one is really perfect in every way
I mean even the internals look brand new. I would say less then 50 of
them have ever turned up.
This is and extremely rare game and probably most expensive EM pinball
machine for collectors in my humble opinion.
If i had to guess I think the reserve on this machine is around 18
grand. I would not be surprised to see it sell for close to 20 grand.
sure is fun to watch the bidding.

[Joe Grenuk]

Neil, I have been collecting pins since the early 80's. At one time,
I was way into woodrails, had 70 or 80 at one point, down to one now.
I looked for a Mermaid for 20 years. I have seen two Mermaids, one at
the Allentown show when it was at the Fire House and the other at Tim
Arnold's. Only ones I have ever seen or heard of for sale are the ones
above on Ebay. I have seen 5 TKO's, and they made only 100 of them
and shipped them all to South America.

They only made about 600 Daisy May's, and at one point, I had three of
them. They seem to be around all the time, but Mermaids ????

IMHO, this is the ultimate "I have one and you don't" EM.

[sea girt]

Is that an original playfield in that Mermaid or is it one of those
repro's. It almost looks a differnet color from all the surrounding
wood? Did they find a NOS pf for it?

Buddy Robinson

[Sean Kavanagh]

I'd think it's one of Clay's repros...that color non-match between the
ball arch and PF surface is a giveaway. I'd think even NOS would be
"aged" by now...

Sean

[Scott McClure]

The seller's location on that game is vaguely familiar...


--
Scott McClure

[Joe S]

The game is owned by Herb Silvers and he did the restoration work on
it. Amazing looking game!

[Scott McClure]

Joe S;1933011 Wrote:

> On May 1, 9:51*am, Scott McClure <Scott... (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote:
> > The seller's location on that game is vaguely familiar...
> >
> > --
> > Scott McClure

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> The game is owned by Herb Silvers and he did the restoration work on
> it. Amazing looking game!

Yeah, I didn't want to come right out and say it, but since you did...

It does look fantastic. I wonder where the reserve really is?

[Herb]

On Monday, April 30, 2012 6:11:30 PM UTC-7, NM wrote:
> Condition appears to be amazing.
>
> IPDB states there were 600 units produced (confirmed).
>
> Seller states very few of them survive today.
>
> Just curious about input from the Woodrail experts as to how many are
> believed actually survived, any past relevant comps you know of, and
> your valuation assessment.
>
> Ebay link:
>

To answer your questions
It looks brand new as it was found in a storage with a ton of brand new parts with it. This playfield is not from clay but was in a box from Mondial which was the Gottlieb main guy. It was dated 18 years ago. Take that as you will. But we made the inserts brand new as the old ones were bad in the game. These will not be reproduced again as I talked to Steve and he is not interested in having them done. All the inside parts are pretty much new also. The motor etc is NOS and also was in a box.
Think of a giant jigsaw puzzle and that was this game. Cost a fortune to get it to me as it was packed in 10 or so boxes. But you think it looks good you should see how it plays.
I also am making a custom Header for the top. I will include a picture today. It is the giant Mermaid from the Game. My artist did it and I am having my backglass people make it. And no this will not be available as I prefer it to be a 1 off.
The reserve lets say is close to what you guys say but 3 Pinball Museums are interested in it. I prefer it stay in the states. That is why it is on ebay.
Thanks for the interest, it was fun to build a new old game.
Herb
Fabulous Fantasies

[gearheaddroppings]

Game is gorgeous...

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> I have seen 5 TKO's, and they made only 100 of
> them and shipped them all to South America.
> They only made about 600 Daisy May's, and at one
> point, I had three of them. They seem to be
> around all the time, but Mermaids ????

Ed Dougherty had a Mermaid for
sale at the Atown Show in '10, (maybe '11).
I don't recall the overall condition
but remember it was pretty nice, backglass
was almost perfect. It was in his booth
with other woodrails standing up on end.
I also saw one in Bob Spieler's collection,
(Pa), approx 10 years ago.
I would say just as any other game,
they're out there somewhere, at least on
the east coast. I never thought 600 units
was a rare amount, not when the average
production run was around 1000, (at least
until '57).
I guess you could say all woodies
are rare these days if you can find them.
In other words, very few of ANY of them in
this condition survive today! This one
happens to be on Ebay, and the seller
simply added his sales pitch. You know
how it goes, Joe, I've seen 5 TKO's this
past year, (if I count Mark's, available
on Ebay), and never saw a Daisy May!

[KenLayton]

Hey Herb, In my book I'd easily give that a solid 10 out 10 rating. You
did a fantastic job on that machine. Simply amazing! Bravo and a tip of
my hat to you for such outstanding work. :)

This game should easily fetch $20,000 and be worth every penny.


--
KenLayton

[Sean Kavanagh]

On May 1, 10:57 am, Herb <pinh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for the back story Herb!

Sean

[tcvid...@yahoo.ca]

Can somebody please tell me why Mermaid is such a big deal? I have
never seen nor played one so I have nothing to go by.I cant even find
a you tube video of it in action.Is it really a fun game? I have read
it is rare with only 500 produced.But is that the big allure? Its
rarity? I just cant see paying that kind of money for a machine that
isnt fun to play and just sits there as art.I have found woodrails to
be very unappealing drain monsters.There is just no fun in them for
me.If you people had your choice between this Mermaid or Tron AND MM
AND CV,would you really choose the Mermaid? Heck I would chose the
Tron alone over the Mermaid.

[Pacpin]

tcvideo2001;1933114 Wrote:

> On May 1, 12:01*pm, KenLayton <KLayton... (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote:
> > Hey Herb, In my book I'd easily give that a solid 10 out 10 rating.
> You
> > did a fantastic job on that machine. Simply amazing! Bravo and a tip
> of
> > my hat to you for such outstanding work. :)
> >
> > This game should easily fetch $20,000 and be worth every penny.
> >
> > --
> > KenLayton

> > This USENET post sent from *http://rgparchive.com

>
> Can somebody please tell me why Mermaid is such a big deal? I have
> never seen nor played one so I have nothing to go by.I cant even find
> a you tube video of it in action.Is it really a fun game? I have read
> it is rare with only 500 produced.But is that the big allure? Its
> rarity? I just cant see paying that kind of money for a machine that
> isnt fun to play and just sits there as art.I have found woodrails to
> be very unappealing drain monsters.There is just no fun in them for
> me.If you people had your choice between this Mermaid or Tron AND MM
> AND CV,would you really choose the Mermaid? Heck I would chose the
> Tron alone over the Mermaid.

It's for collectors at this point. The same thing could be said why
people spend a million dollars on a Honus Wagner baseball card, or tons
of money on a rare coin, when all you can do is sit and "look" at them.
Some people enjoy that aspect of collecting and not everything as to be
'fun' to be worth spending money on.


--
Pacpin

[tcvid...@yahoo.ca]

> This USENET post sent from  http://rgparchive.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ok.Well explained Pacpin.Thank you.

[wayout440]

Bonus if I can play with it as well as look at it...that's what she
said.:D


--
wayout440

[Herb]

On Monday, April 30, 2012 6:11:30 PM UTC-7, NM wrote:

> Condition appears to be amazing.
>
> IPDB states there were 600 units produced (confirmed).
>
> Seller states very few of them survive today.
>
> Just curious about input from the Woodrail experts as to how many are
> believed actually survived, any past relevant comps you know of, and
> your valuation assessment.
>
> Ebay link:
>

Want to talk expensive how about a Rockola All Star Baseball $125,000 Or Rockola 27 World Series Baseball 65,000 They went for about 600 back in the day new. That my friends is expensive. Lets see a new house or a Rockola Baseball huh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Herb

[Rompen]

What's pretty cool is that there are possibly more of these
undiscovered in the wild.

I'd love to see a, "Top 10 most valuable pinball machines you could
potentially find in the wild" list.

[Caucasian Two Step]

This game is not usually my cup of tea... but wow. I mean... wow...
This deck is stunning.

The sad thing is that it will be bought by someone who will keep it in
their collection and it may never see the light of day again. Or if we
do, it will be behind the velvet rope to care for their "investment".

Someone's gonna get a real gem with this table. I wonder if they will
even play it?

KMR

[Pin Del]

I think that is a Very Sweet looking game ,, Great job Herb !
That said,,It is a LOT harder to aquire<sp> Rare Art that it is to
sell it .

Pin-Del,
cargpb28

[hoov]

I had a chance to buy a project Mermaid with a worn playfield needing
inserts, plastics, etc., about a year or so ago. I lost out because I
didn't pull the trigger fast enough............Dave


--
hoov

[Ron, (Boatcat)]

> I have read it is rare with only 500 produced,

> But is that the big allure? Its rarity?

No! Many people have paid
stupid-like money for a Bally Fireball,
which is neither rare n'or a good
game.
Both games have an unusual
following right now. Mermaid is from
that early-'50's mold of Gtb. EM's that
I think are the most creative. The
later '50's reflect games that were
built around re-usable contracted
parts, such as rotos, etc, and the
repetition of features and shots simply
because they were successfull in the
past. Many Gtb. Games in this '51-'56
era will command a premium for this
reason, unlike Fireball which received
it's notoriety from a Playboy Magazine
Article. NONE of any other early '70's
Bally Games get the same attention.

[EM Pins]

Actually Ed had the head only. And I know because I bought it for a
European collector. It was over 2k just for the head. And the
collector in Europe was thankful to pay that plus the overnight ups
freight they paid to have it shipped to them after I built a crate for
it. Figure 700 in freight. They had a playfield, and one way or
another they were going to build a game and the head was the missing
link.

[Frank Furhter]

Herb has some vic to cover for a mess we all know as Retro.

[Chaz]

Fabulous nightmare..
Chaz

[llabrevlis]

Completely disagree about Fireball, it stands on its own both as a
game to play and an iconic example of art and creativity. Mermaid is
more of an enigma to me, isn't particularly a great game to play, or
have outstanding art or engineering, but the collector market seems to
love it!

Dale

[ldnayman]

On May 1, 11:37 pm, llabrevlis <llabrev...@shaw.ca> wrote:
\

> Completely disagree about Fireball, it stands on its own both as a
> game to play and an iconic example of art and creativity.  Mermaid is
> more of an enigma to me, isn't particularly a great game to play, or
> have outstanding art or engineering, but the collector market seems to
> love it!
>
> Dale

Mermaid exists solely to infuriate modern day collectors, who cannot
believe that a ratty old EM game is worth more than their MM.

And it serves this purpose well.

[Sean Kavanagh]

LOL...nice Levi. :o)

[Joe Grenuk]

Levi, wrong again!

At the end of this auction it will prove to be worth TWO MM's.

:)

Joe

[Sean Kavanagh]

I recently had someone explain to me why Fireball is not a good
game...they claimed it was very easy to beat, and therefore a flawed
game. Not knowing the game very well, I'm afraid I didn't follow it
completely...but something like you zip the flippers, shoot the WOTAN
hole(this name might be wrong), then that lights something you can
shoot over and over to score a ton of points. Hopefully this piss-
poor description rings a bell for someone and they can
elaborate...otherwise I just look really ignorant and/or dumb.
Sigh...won't be the first time... :o)

Sean

[CactusJack]

Sean Kavanagh;1933861 Wrote:
> On May 2, 2:37*am, llabrevlis <llabrev... (AT) shaw (DOT) ca>
> wrote:[color=blue]

>
> I recently had someone explain to me why Fireball is not a good
> game...they claimed it was very easy to beat, and therefore a flawed
> game. Not knowing the game very well, I'm afraid I didn't follow it
> completely...but something like you zip the flippers, shoot the WOTAN
> hole(this name might be wrong), then that lights something you can
> shoot over and over to score a ton of points. Hopefully this piss-
> poor description rings a bell for someone and they can
> elaborate...otherwise I just look really ignorant and/or dumb.
> Sigh...won't be the first time... :o)
>
> Sean

It has been a while since I had my Fireball set but I logged a lot of
games on it over the years when it was set up. If you have good to
excellent flipper skills, the game is quite easy and therefore can get
quite boring. But for the "Average" player, it can be a fun game,
especially with multiple players.

Overall, this is your typical ball:

Learn the skill shot to go part way up the ramp and then back down for
the 3000 points and to light all bumpers as I recall.

Shoot to close zipper flippers. Allow ball to settle on flippers. Tap
flipper button to get ball against flipper and sling. As it rolls back
down to center of flippers, flip to lock ball in either the right or
left lock (wotan or odin).

Repeat to fill second lock hole. Remember, both of these lock holes are
easier to hit by using a back handed flipper shot. But they are also
easy straight on.

Use next ball served (#3) to unlock either of the two locked balls.
Most games are not strong enough to hit the "Release Fire Gods" target
at the top of the captive ball which will release both balls at the same
time, so don't really bother. Sometimes, it is more "do-able" using a
back hand shot since the flipper is much stonger away from the tip. But
its pretty hard to miss hitting a Mushroom bumper for release.

Release a second ball if you wish, but try to relock one of the balls in
play.

When you get down to 1 ball in play, repeat the complete lock process.

When you learn to do this, you get to repeatedly score the 3000 on the
skill shot, and collect the 1000 - 5000 on releasing Odin, and 1000 -
3000 in releasing Wotan. Which makes Replay levels easy to reach. And
many games had 4 replay levels since there were no on playfield
specials. It also makes it suck for the other people waiting to play
since your 5 ball game turns into 55 ball games.....

The game becomes more challenging if the sling shots are set very
sensitive. This way, they ram the ball down the side drains more
often.

Still a good fun game for a large collection but not a Desert Island
game. But I do feel 4 Million BC is more fun to play and I can't
explain why. But the play stategy is exactly the same: lock, release,
repeat.

RB


--
CactusJack

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 2 May 2012 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT), Sean Kavanagh <seanspin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I recently had someone explain to me why Fireball is not a good
> game...they claimed it was very easy to beat, and therefore a flawed
> game.

Compared to what other game(s)? If you're attempting to compare Fireball
to MM or LOTR or something like that, you're missing the point. It's an
EM.

> Not knowing the game very well, I'm afraid I didn't follow it
> completely...but something like you zip the flippers, shoot the WOTAN
> hole(this name might be wrong), then that lights something you can
> shoot over and over to score a ton of points.

What I think they're describing would be somewhat mis-using the playfield
features, but it could work.

Plunge the ball, with the skill shot to light the pop bumpers. That scores
3000 points, plus the bumpers are worth a lot more.

Hit the three mushroom targets to light the WOTAN release lane switches.

Lock the ball in the WOTAN hole (on the right). That serves up another
ball.

Plunge, again for 3000 on the skill shot. You're in single ball play,
but shots to the WOTAN hole are still valid. They'll bounce off the locked
ball, and the ball will go down the WOTAN release lane, scoring 3000
points. If you can catch and repeat this, it could be lucrative.

But, with the playfield set up right, this would be very difficult to
do. You need the angle such that it's hard to catch the ball and repeat
this. You also need the slingshots adjusted so that they're likely to
take the ball exiting the WOTAN lane and pop it over in to the left
outlane.

And, worse, like any maximum points strategy on any game, this isn't
likely to be any *fun*. It's the equivalent of "light the ramp, loop
the ramp 8000 times for lots of points". This might make sense if
you're playing in a contest, for money or league or something like
that.


--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| And now, Crime-stoppers, let's repeat the "Crime-stopper's Oath"... |
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 2 May 2012 12:13:27 -0400, CactusJack <reinh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Learn the skill shot to go part way up the ramp and then back down for
> the 3000 points and to light all bumpers as I recall.

Yes. This can be made somewhat more difficult by messing with the playfield
angle, but there's always a sweet spot where the plunger scores the skill
shot.

> Shoot to close zipper flippers. Allow ball to settle on flippers. Tap
> flipper button to get ball against flipper and sling. As it rolls back
> down to center of flippers, flip to lock ball in either the right or
> left lock (wotan or odin).

Messing with the playfield angle can make this more easy or difficult. On
mine, backhanding either lock is difficult. It used to be easy, but then
I adjusted the playfield angle.

> Use next ball served (#3) to unlock either of the two locked balls.
> Most games are not strong enough to hit the "Release Fire Gods" target
> at the top of the captive ball which will release both balls at the same
> time, so don't really bother.

The captive ball on mine is not easy to hit, but mine has plenty of flipper
power (and a clearcoated and waxed playfield) so to make the shot. I've
seen the captive ball re-newton the ball that hit it, after bouncing off
the standup target with quite a bit of momentum.

> Sometimes, it is more "do-able" using a
> back hand shot since the flipper is much stonger away from the tip. But
> its pretty hard to miss hitting a Mushroom bumper for release.

The yellow mushrooms are much easier to hit, but score fewer points, so
it's worth it to go for the captive ball.

> Release a second ball if you wish, but try to relock one of the balls in
> play.

Always try to re-lock the balls while in play, yes.

> When you learn to do this, you get to repeatedly score the 3000 on the
> skill shot, and collect the 1000 - 5000 on releasing Odin, and 1000 -
> 3000 in releasing Wotan.

The captive ball, if set up and timed perfectly, is with 11,200 points.
ODIN is 5000 if you hit the timing just right. WOTAN is worth 3000 if
you've lit all three switches (but the captive ball unlights them). The
captive ball is worth 3200, 100 for the lower switch (tripped twice),
1000 for the upper switch (tripped twice), and 1000 for the standup.
Plus, it opens the gate and returns one ball the plunger for the skill
shot.

> Which makes Replay levels easy to reach. And
> many games had 4 replay levels since there were no on playfield
> specials.

I have mine set up with two (45k, 60k) and part of the meta game is
to attempt to keep the credit wheel from hitting zero. That adds to the
fun for me, as you do have to try to keep beating it over time.

> The game becomes more challenging if the sling shots are set very
> sensitive. This way, they ram the ball down the side drains more
> often.

Right. The game has to be set up properly to be fun. But that's true
for *any* game. It also helps to clean the spinning disk with Bleech
White, which makes it just slightly tacky and increases the randomness
of the balls crossing it.

--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |

| mov [brain],offset coffee |

[Sean Kavanagh]

On May 2, 1:32 pm, David Gersic <usenet_spam_t...@zaccaria-
pinball.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2 May 2012 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT), Sean Kavanagh <seanspinballb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I recently had someone explain to me why Fireball is not a good
> > game...they claimed it was very easy to beat, and therefore a flawed
> > game.
>
> Compared to what other game(s)? If you're attempting to compare Fireball
> to MM or LOTR or something like that, you're missing the point. It's an
> EM.

The guy was definitely not comparing it to modern pins...strictly an
EM guy who used to be into pins and pinball design way back in the
day. He told me some great stories about going and meeting Kordek,
and Harry Williams and other old school designers from the early
flipper EM era. He's out of the hobby now...I got a bunch of EM stuff
he still had...

Thanks for the clarification on my crappily repeated story...you and
Jack seemed to both understand his point though. Personally I like
Fireball, but it's out of my realm of expertise...too modern! :o) I
wasn't trying to be a contrarian and just slam a wildly popular game,
but Ron's comment reminded me of that conversation, and I hoped
somebody could help me understand that point.

Sean

Sean

[Phatchit]

$19,700 and still going ! 30 bids / reserve not met


--
Phatchit

[David Gersic]

On Wed, 2 May 2012 10:51:56 -0700 (PDT), Sean Kavanagh <seanspin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification on my crappily repeated story...you and
> Jack seemed to both understand his point though. Personally I like
> Fireball, but it's out of my realm of expertise...too modern! :o) I

No problem. Not every game clicks for every player. So there's lots of
variety out there. I like mine, which is all that really matters to
me.

--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |

| First Rule of Intelligent Tinkering: Save all the parts. |

[AChenelle]

Bumping this so everyone can watch it go down to the wire. I sure hope
it sells


--
AChenelle

[waltr]

Reserve met, sold for $22,000
Congrats to the new owner:)


--
waltr

[Joe S]

$22,000!!! Congrats to the winning bidder and to the seller!

[Rob T]

Amazing!


--
Rob T

[Pacpin]

waltr;1934524 Wrote:
> Reserve met, sold for $22,000
> Congrats to the new owner:)

Take THAT all you MM owners! MM means nothing, Mermaid is the real
grail to have!


--
Pacpin

[Frank Furhter]

Joe S wrote:
> $22,000!!! Congrats to the winning bidder and to the seller!

Will this cover the vic on the Retro effort?

[richiep]

It's back up on Ebay......guess the buyer fell through, unless it was
all BS.


--
richiep

[waltr]

No BS
If you're referring to this:

http://tinyurl.com/c96zs76

It's not the same one.
I have a new playfield, but don't have enough $$ right now for this
one.
Maybe next time.


--
waltr

[raddroxx]

Obviously you didn't take the time to look at the current ebay
auction. It's not the same machine dipshit.

[Joe Grenuk]

>
> Obviously you didn't take the time to look at the current ebay
> auction. It's not the same machine dipshit.

"Dipshit"??? Really? Wouldn't a simple period after the word "machine"
have been just fine?

In any case, this is NOT going to be the last one of these to come up
for sale after Herb's blowout sale.

And am I the only one calling bullshit on that PinballGirl BS about
Daddy and the Jersey Shore?

Joe

[Frank Furhter]

richiep wrote:
> It's back up on Ebay......guess the buyer fell through, unless it was
> all BS.
>
>

If it was 4:20, along with fantastic, it was fabulous bullshit all along.

[richiep]

I stand corrected....I didn't realize it was a different
auction/machine, but if all those bids are actually real bids and not
shills.......I'd be very amazed indeed.......dipshit.

[richiep]

I stand corrected....I didn't realize it was a different
auction/machine, but if all those bids are actually real

bids...amazing.....dipshit.

[mikemi...@gmail.com]

If anyone is interested I am about to list my 1951 Gottlieb Mermaid pinball machine on eBay sometime today. It is in complete working condition and the internals look great. The only down side to my mermaid is the playing field has obvious ware from play. Contact Mike at MikeMi...@Gmail.com for any questions and pictures. Thanks a lot. The machine is located in Florissant Missouri

-Mike M

[mikemi...@gmail.com]

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/atq/4934351415.html