Rehashing the Clear Coat debate
JC
(btw, perhaps I should do the "formal introduction" thing: "Hi, my
name is JC. I first got addicted back in 1994 when someone plopped a
TZ into the lounge area of a college coffee house. I recently
(December) made good on a promised wedding gift and Xmas and got a TZ
and TOTAN. Happy, happy, joy, joy... I plan to expand
[SHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Don't tell the wife!] at some point with other
loves such as ToM, TAF, and ST:TNG, but have no room, money, or leeway
with the wife right now. ;-) Enjoying the boards immensely).
So.
I have my dream pins. Now I want to *really* make them dream pins.
Of course, I want to make the playfields "shine like glass". Query:
how to go about it?
Now, when I first got serious about getting a pin, there's a guy down
in Los Gatos, CA my wife contacted (was originally supposed to be a
surprise), who does restorations for home use only (well, in theory).
Short story there is that I decided it cost way too much (although
I've since learned to appreciate the *shipping factor* when talking
about pins in CA!!! Yikes!). However, he mentioned that his
playfields were all treated with 7 coats of a DuPont Acrylic Finish to
get the glass effect I saw on his playfields. (Pretty. Oh, so very,
very pretty). Never got the specifics on where he got it done or what
the product was called. (He was kinda unhappy I didn't buy from
him--didn't answer my questions).
I'm finally stripping the TZ to do the 3rd Magnet and clean it. Of
course, I want the shine. Having read Clay's "History of Laquer" and
some other threads, I feel really educated and think Clay's post is
probably discussing the DuPont material used by the Los Gatos guy.
Now the dilema:
Do I want to Laquer a TZ playfield in great shape that already has the
DiamondPlate? According to one pinhead, all I need to do is clean it
up with novus 2 and then use a buffer with Mother's paste to get the
mirror/glass effect. I'm not so sure. But then Clay talks about the
risks of over applying laquer and, in the case of acrylic laquer, the
yellowing affects over time.
I'm afraid I need more opinions. Is 2 coats worth it? Not needed?
Will acrylic coatings always turn yellow or is sunlight required for
that to happen? (I have the option of really cutting off natural
light to that room [which I already do to an extent]). Is this
product "Liquid Glass" a possibility on a Diamondplate surface?
Lastly, if I do go for the Acrylic coating--where? I'm in San
Francisco and my query with Mr. Pinball resulted in a shop based in
Livermore...roughly 2 1/2 hour drive from my house. :-( San Jose?
Oakland? Do auto shops do the acrylic based coats? (I'm fairly
certain that it's Acrylic or nothing, but really am open to being
persuaded to a third option).
Thanks to one and all!
mark french
>DiamondPlate?>>
I can only answer for myself. I wouldn't touch it unless it is having some
noticeable wear problems on insert lettering or something similar that clearing
it would stop. Just try the buffing/polishing routine on a small spot if you
want to see how much it can be shined up ...Frenchy
Ceegary
GRY
"JC" <john....@libertymutual.com> wrote in message
news:8f2ae8ce.04031...@posting.google.com...
Chadly29
Looks great, plays great and protects. If the pf is already out I would do it
for sure. Make sure you use someone that has experience. I am lucky, there is
a local guy I use that does great work. You may want to try Bill Davis.
Andy
clearing them is the best way to preserve them. IMHO, use an automotive
clearcoat, applied by someone who knows what they are doing.
Andy
"Chadly29" <chad...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040312084834...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Curt Laven
--
Curt :)
claven...@kc.rr.com
Remove NOSPAM to email me
"Chadly29" <chad...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040312084834...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Fred Kemper
Clearcoating destroys the collectable value of the
game, if you are concerned. It should be reserved
for games that are damaged, and otherwise unsalvageable.
I would only do that to an otherwise "lost" playfield, not
one that was in decent condition.
Buff them and wax them is usually all you need.
That's my view.
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"JC" <john....@libertymutual.com> wrote in message news:8f2ae8ce.04031...@posting.google.com...
>
> Do I want to Laquer a TZ playfield in great shape that already has the
Wolffy
This winter I stripped down my TZ becuase the playfield was looking
really dull. It is diamond plated which means the playfield is already
clear coated. What I did to restore the shine to mine is use Novus #2
on a buffing wheel (six inch buffer loaned to me by a friend) and when
I've come to the conclusion that I've buffed out every scratch that
could realistically be buffed out, I used a hard wax to add a layer of
protection to the game. The end result is that the playfield shines,
the color is once again vibrant, and the game plays fast. Now does it
look like glass, no. Does it look nice, yes! Now my playfield has no
serious damage to it so there is no reason for a touch up and complete
reseal, so I opted to not spend the money for a clear coat.
I have on my to do list to put up pictures of this project on my website
but my time frame is sometime with in the month. Send me an e-mail if
you want to chat more about what I did to my TZ in the meantime.
-wolffy
WedgeWood
pins.
And don't start whining 10 or 20 years from now when time proves this to be
a BAD idea.
It should only be used on a playfield as a last resort.
"JC" <john....@libertymutual.com> wrote in message
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JC
it's not worth it if the playfield isn't worn. And I'd say definitely
not. The prior owner of my TZ truly did a great job
maintaining/refreshing it. Here's what Caly said (don't worry, Clay,
I deleted stuff to save you from spam):
From: cfh@
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:11 AM
To: Hedger, John
Subject: Re: clear coatin
well i don't know about the master thing, but it's just the lesser of
evils really. clearcoating is expensive and
invassive. you don't want to do it unless there's a good reason. it
also messes with the originality. original is better. so if there's no
wear, just do the TC buff method. it's less expensive and the results
are as good.
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:57:20 -0500
"Hedger, John" <John....@LibertyMutual.com> wrote:
> So speakth the master. I hear and will obey. :-) I recently ordered
> and received TOP 3 & 4; haven't been able to watch yet but now I know!
> Thanks.
>
> John "JC" Hedger
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cfh
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:28 AM
> To: Hedger, John
> Subject: clear coating
>
>
> don't do the clear coat thing unless there is a good reason, like
> playfield wear. otherwise, i would go the 'treasure cove' route and
> power buff the playfield. we show that in the new version of TOP#4
> http://marvin3m.com/top get yourself a nice 4" power buffer, some
> novus3 and novus2, and go at it.
So I'll hopefully swing by Home Depot or Sears this weekend so I'll be
ready to 'go at it'!
Andy
> Clearcoating destroys the collectable value of the
> game, if you are concerned. It should be reserved
> for games that are damaged, and otherwise unsalvageable.
IMHO, this is not true. We will have to agree to disagree on this one for
sure. Clearcoated games command serious premiums these days, especially the
MM's, CC's and the like.
Mickster
being completely disassembled and completely shopped at a insane level.
Clearcoating games is no different than any other 'fad' that collectable
items get destroyed by. Don't judge the value of the games now. Look at
other items that have 'saved' by people 30 years ago that are now worthless
or just worth less. It is way too soon to say that clearcoating is good for
collectability. I will say I bet it makes the game shine like crazy and
the ball play fast, but 5 years from now its possible that there will be
threads on this group about clearcoat chipping, lifting, hazying and who
knows what else. Clearcoating is a very dramatic thing to do to a
collectable object. It is way too soon to say this is the route to go. In
fact, with any home use pin its actually a mistake most likely (Unless the
owner just has to have the extra shine) since ball wear shouldn't be an
issue.
flame away if needed.
--
Mickster
Visit my website and see my arcade!!
http://mickster.freeservers.com
"Andy" <andyN...@charlottepinball.com> wrote in message
news:SOo4c.90642$eL2.4...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Iain Odlin
>Clearcoating is a very dramatic thing to do to a collectable object.
It is, however, not that extreme for a game that has a solid steel ball
crashing around in it.
Considering that "Diamondplate" (you know: What games since T2 came with
standard from the factory) *is* clearcoat, I see no problem with it.
-Iain
Chris Woodruff
out. Man, it does look nice already, and I haven't even waxed it yet...
cw
john....@libertymutual.com (JC) wrote in
news:8f2ae8ce.04031...@posting.google.com:
Kirb
You haven't seen a game where the clear has been lifting, either...not
a pretty sight. Game is worse off in some cases.
Kirb
bluesteve
all of this. I see it sometimes mentioned in advertisements - but
little mention in newsgroups. Does this mean that the playfield has
been completely coated in mylar, or the all necessary areas have been
protected?
Also, in clear coating, should the playfield mylars be removed prior
to doing this (I would have thought so), and how do you go about
replacing them, which I would have thought should be a necessary
requirement if deciding to clear coat a playfield. I would like to
know if there is a recommended replacement product as it would seem
that they should be installed after coating in high impact areas to
protect the playfied.
Cheers - Steve
Chadly29
many games that have a clearcoat and they always sell for a premium, as they
should. The bottom line is this, do what you want to do, not what others want
you to do. They are your pins. If you think a clearcoat looks good and plays
great like I do then as the Nike slogan says, Just do it. I will guarantee
that it will increase the value of your game if the job is done professionally.
It may take some people out of the market when you resell your game but it
will also put others in. A clearcoated game has always moved much faster for
me than a non clearcoated one. Personally, I have some trouble with the
sanding/buffing method. This removes the existing clearcoat in order to polish
it to a brilliant shine. I think the clearcoat from the factory is already too
thin in most cases. This just increases the chances of wearing though the
clear in high traffic areas by insert edges and getting to the artwork. We
shop quite a few pins and this has been my experience.
Bruce
> items get destroyed by. Don't judge the value of the games now. Look at
> other items that have 'saved' by people 30 years ago that are now worthless
> or just worth less. It is way too soon to say that clearcoating is good for
> collectability. I will say I bet it makes the game shine like crazy and
> the ball play fast, but 5 years from now its possible that there will be
> threads on this group about clearcoat chipping, lifting, hazying and who
> knows what else. Clearcoating is a very dramatic thing to do to a
> collectable object. It is way too soon to say this is the route to go. In
> fact, with any home use pin its actually a mistake most likely (Unless the
> owner just has to have the extra shine) since ball wear shouldn't be an
> issue.
>
> flame away if needed.
>
> --
> Mickster
Hi Mickster,
Flamming is not neccesary, however I will disagree. The more I learn
about pinball restoration the more I realize Williams/Bally were just
experimenters too. When they changed to Catalized Urethane aka Diamond
Plate they didn't know what the long term effects would be. They only
used thin coats because of cost concerns, heck it was really used
primarily by auto painters. Which in no way means it wasn't good for
PF's as well. It's just Pinball manufactures aren't big enough to
support companies like Dupont etc. Clearcoating now only revitalizes
what's already there and while you may have an arguement about it's
effects in 30 years, I already know what the effects of a small metal
ballbearing hitting obsticals at high speeds does to unprotected wood
today. So what's your point?
Arizona Bruce
Bruce
Whoever did it, didn't do it right. Don't shoot the messenger.
Arizona Bruce
Mickster
service and are most likely to only be home use for the rest of there
existance that 99% of wear has already taken place. Most (but not all
pins) get heavy use the first month in a home and after that , pretty much
set (sometimes as few as a couple plays per month). Spraying clear to save
a machine from wear is pretty much pointless when there will be little
further wear at this point. There was a thread in this newsgroup asking if
home owners had noticed much wear on there personal machines and it was
pretty summed up that most machines did not seem to show any additional wear
from home use.
Go ahead and clear if thats what you want, but in a long term
collectibility standpoint it will most likely be worth less if its cleared.
Think about, you have two 1955 corvettes, approximate same condition.
One was cleared in 1970 with some form of protectanct of that time and one
was left alone. There is no way that the cleared one would sell as well or
be worth as much. Both cars would be in the same approximate shape since
most likely they would not have been 'daily driver' cars from 1970 on.
Now, if you were buying and selling the cars in 1972, the cleared one would
probably be worth more. But remember there was a time when 8-track tapes
were the hot item, but I doubt many people look at them as a hot item now.
Any item that is over 25 years old is usually judged by two things condition
and originality. Change either one and the value goes down.
Keep in mind none of this applies if looking for personal taste or short
term benefits.
--
Mickster
Visit my website and see my arcade!!
http://mickster.freeservers.com
"Bruce" <bruc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:395a1a88.04031...@posting.google.com...
Mickster
certain percentage will end up worse. If you don't clear it, it removes
that particular game from the equation.
I believe that many people are clearing games just because its a high end
custom job that can be done to toys in their hobby. I like stuff shiny, but
I have no desire to start shooting every object in my house with varethane.
There is nothing wrong with customizing a pin to the owners liking
(afterall most are bought with entertainment in mind), but with every
project there is a chance things will come out worse instead of better.
You can be the best painter in the world, that won't save you if for some
reason the batch of clear is defective.
Mickster
Visit my website and see my arcade!!
http://mickster.freeservers.com
"Bruce" <bruc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:395a1a88.0403...@posting.google.com...
Steve Charland
well as the original paint bond to the wood, clear can help absorb hits but it
won't make the original art bond any stronger to the plywood (that compresses
easier). In actuality, it could hurt the art if the clear isn't flexible enough.
Flaking, lifting, cracking and separation could happen if the playfield sees a
lot of action like when out on location (just like what you see on factory
clears).
I've noticed that some playfields tend to dimple a lot (maybe cheaper
plywood?), I think this would make problems for a good clear coat bond in the
future. If the original paint has been beat with a ball before new clear coating
(dimples = bonding damage), it's likely that the clear won't bond as well to the
plywood through the original artwork.
More likely, a NOS playfield that's been coated shouldn't have this type of
bonding problem since the original paint isn't weakened by ball hits. As others
have said, time will tell. The games will either look great or the owners will
be looking for a new playfield. It's too early to tell and it'll be interesting
to see these "newly cleared" playfields 20 years from now. These cleared
playfields are the exploration trials for the future collectors. They'll covet
games were clear coated or avoid buying them.
People forget that these games were made NOT to last an eternity, they
weren't supposed to still be here competing with new games. Like everything
else, collectors have changed the market. You can see it in this type of debate
in any hobby. -S (CARGPB1)
Kirb
>
> Arizona Bruce
Well, hold on bruce, because it was done by everyone's fav clear
shooter...Yep, BD is his name.
Not saying this guy doesn't do great work work, but in this case it
seems that the original clear seperated from an insert on an NOS PF.
Would it have happened without the clear? Maybe, but it DID happen.
I'm with several on this one- clearing is OK in some cases, but not
all. Bill also puts his clear on REAL thick which can make the problem
worse.
Kirb
Neil Bradley
> Of course, I want to make the playfields "shine like glass". Query:
> how to go about it?
I have a somewhat unique perspective as I own a Black Knight 2000 that is
clearcoated (NOS playfields by Bill Davis) and I own an arcade in the
Portland, OR area where I operate it. It was clearcoated about 4 years ago.
After 16,000+ plays, it looks as good as the day I installed it in the game.
So based on this, I'd like to make a few points:
1) It's really irritating to me to hear people say "it's better if it's
original". Define "better". Certainly not worth more. Most everyone values
clearcoated playfields. I've seen a few people on RGP make the claim that it
devalues a pin, but that contradicts everything I've seen in terms of resale
value of clearcoated pins vs. nonclearcoated (or fully shopped) pins. eBay'd
clear coated pins have consistently gone for more than nonclearcoated games,
as an example. I've yet to see someone present hard evidence of why
clearcoating overall is a bad idea on ANY pin.
2) There are those against clearcoating with religious ferver, and I don't
understand this. I don't understand why it needs violent emotion, and I
suspect that those individuals who are militantly against it have never
clearcoated or played one, or they are part of #3 below. Take note of how
many posts the anti clearcoaters make, but make absolutely NO substantive
claims that pertain to clearcoating a pinball machine playfield.
3) The whole concept of "keeping it original" is just silly except to the
handful of people who are super anal about such things. It reminds me of
people who are more attached to the equipment itself than the game it
represents. As an example, I had a "collector" not want to buy my Joust
machine because it didn't have the unreliable, heat generating, original
inefficient linear power supply in it. That's insanity! The same people
often think that taking a magic marker to the edge of a CD makes it sound
better, buys $1000/ft speaker cable, and other such irrationalities.
4) Clearcoating protects. Period. Otherwise automobile manufacturers
wouldn't have done it for the past God knows how long. The speculation I've
seen on RGP of what COULD happen is nothing more than conjecture.
After these points, I'll give you my personal perspective on clearcoating.
Not all of it is good:
1) I highly recommend clearcoating... if it's done right. I don't know what
"right" means, but I've personally witnessed many of Bill Davis' creations,
many of which have survived beautifully for YEARS. It's very easy to do a
lousy job of clearcoating (lack of sanding, lack of layers, etc...). You
can't take a can of Krylon and spray it and make it look good. It won't
happen. But at the same time, don't get the idea that clearcoating as a
whole is bad just because someone has a bad experience. There are dozens of
factors that can contribute to the quality of a clearcoat job.
2) Ripping off all of the playfield electronics is a *TON* of work. If you
think it'll take you 2 weekends to do, multiply that by 3, and it's more
realistic. You'll find all kinds of alignment problems, wires you wired up
wrong (even if you took pictures), staples shorting out GI, diodes ripped
off, switch columns/rows screwed up, etc... when you put it all back
together. Be prepared for a good debug session! It's not for the faint
hearted, or the nontechnically inclined.
3) If your playfield is in excellent shape and you're planning on having
home use only, it most likely doesn't make sense to clearcoat. The wear
isn't anywhere near as muchas it would be if the game were in an arcade.
4) Once you clearcoat a game, gameplay speeds up significantly. My Black
Knight 2000 is lighting fast, and breaks off flipper bats every few months.
The targets within the machine will take more of a beating, as do the
plastics.
5) If you must do the clearcoating yourself, please do yourself (and the
pin) a favor by getting in lots of practice on another playfield or two, or
even 3 or 4. Better yet, send it to Bill Davis.
6) Clearcoating over a playfield overlay *CAN* be a very bad idea. Make 100%
certain that the overlay is supported - don't remove the lamp inserts before
applying the overlay, otherwise the overlay will eventually pull away from
the clearcoat.
Am I happy with the clearcoat on my BK2K? Definitely. Would I do it again?
Definitely.
FYI - I have no connection to Bill other than being a very satisfied
customer of his.
-->Neil
Mickster
> original". Define "better". Certainly not worth more. Most everyone values
> clearcoated playfields. I've seen a few people on RGP make the claim that
it
> devalues a pin, but that contradicts everything I've seen in terms of
resale
> value of clearcoated pins vs. nonclearcoated (or fully shopped) pins.
eBay'd
> clear coated pins have consistently gone for more than nonclearcoated
games,
> as an example. I've yet to see someone present hard evidence of why
> clearcoating overall is a bad idea on ANY pin.
Uhhh, you list why its a bad idea in your post below in #1,2,3,4, and 6.
People have shown pics of some of the points you have described below.
Right now clearcoated pins will bring more because its the current 'in
thing'. Check other hobbies, widen your vision and you will see the
simularities. Cars is always the easiest example because there are
restorations and preservations on so many different financial levels.
>
> 2) There are those against clearcoating with religious ferver, and I don't
> understand this. I don't understand why it needs violent emotion, and I
> suspect that those individuals who are militantly against it have never
> clearcoated or played one, or they are part of #3 below. Take note of how
> many posts the anti clearcoaters make, but make absolutely NO substantive
> claims that pertain to clearcoating a pinball machine playfield.
>
I think I have shown that I am not a clearcoat guy and did this without
violent emotion. Part of the problem is that its much easier to show an
opinion that is short and not as polite as to take the time to post with
more verbosity and politeness. I could have replied and said, no you are
stupid and your ideas suck, but chose instead to type my thoughts out.
> 3) The whole concept of "keeping it original" is just silly except to the
> handful of people who are super anal about such things. It reminds me of
> people who are more attached to the equipment itself than the game it
> represents. As an example, I had a "collector" not want to buy my Joust
> machine because it didn't have the unreliable, heat generating, original
> inefficient linear power supply in it. That's insanity! The same people
> often think that taking a magic marker to the edge of a CD makes it sound
> better, buys $1000/ft speaker cable, and other such irrationalities.
>
Interesting that you would take that point of view, if you would have put in
the time on your joust that you did on the clearcoat job of the pin, you
would have sold the game. The original power supplies are extremely
reliable (will outlast the crappy switcher that you installed). Its just
very easy to take the shortcut and throw a switcher in the game. It also
would have cost you less to fix it right then to convert it to a switcher.
The collector probably didn't buy the game to play (he can play the game in
MAME). He wanted an 100% original joust that wasn't 'hacked'. This very
reason is why the cleared games should be worth less eventially (time will
tell). And you know why your game didn't sell, because it was very easy
for the buyer to move on and buy a 100% original one.
> 4) Clearcoating protects. Period. Otherwise automobile manufacturers
> wouldn't have done it for the past God knows how long. The speculation
I've
> seen on RGP of what COULD happen is nothing more than conjecture.
>
It sure does protect, no one will argue you there, but would you take a 10
year old car into the body shop and have them shoot some clear on 10 year
old paint. The painter will laugh at you, he will tell you to sand it
down, prime it, shoot color, then shoot the clear. Its not conjecture,
because people have already replied of clear problems.
> After these points, I'll give you my personal perspective on clearcoating.
> Not all of it is good:
>
> 1) I highly recommend clearcoating... if it's done right. I don't know
what
> "right" means, but I've personally witnessed many of Bill Davis'
creations,
> many of which have survived beautifully for YEARS. It's very easy to do a
> lousy job of clearcoating (lack of sanding, lack of layers, etc...). You
> can't take a can of Krylon and spray it and make it look good. It won't
> happen. But at the same time, don't get the idea that clearcoating as a
> whole is bad just because someone has a bad experience. There are dozens
of
> factors that can contribute to the quality of a clearcoat job.
Yep and with all those factors, thats why for many its not worth it (and for
many it is)
>
> 2) Ripping off all of the playfield electronics is a *TON* of work. If you
> think it'll take you 2 weekends to do, multiply that by 3, and it's more
> realistic. You'll find all kinds of alignment problems, wires you wired up
> wrong (even if you took pictures), staples shorting out GI, diodes ripped
> off, switch columns/rows screwed up, etc... when you put it all back
> together. Be prepared for a good debug session! It's not for the faint
> hearted, or the nontechnically inclined.
I think this is why many do it, its a very high end labor intensive
project. Many collectors don't play their pins, they work on them. They
are looking for these type of large man hour projects.
>
> 3) If your playfield is in excellent shape and you're planning on having
> home use only, it most likely doesn't make sense to clearcoat. The wear
> isn't anywhere near as muchas it would be if the game were in an arcade.
>
And this group is made up primarly of home collectors (not operators). So
for this reason here most people should not clear coat
> 4) Once you clearcoat a game, gameplay speeds up significantly. My Black
> Knight 2000 is lighting fast, and breaks off flipper bats every few
months.
> The targets within the machine will take more of a beating, as do the
> plastics.
This is my personal reason that I would not want a machine clearcoated. I
want my game to play the way they did 'back in the day' . To use your
example with the joust. I don't want to play 'super duper joust 2000 with
unlimited lives and twice the gameplay speed' . I want to play the game of
joust that I remember playing in the arcade. People collect arcade games
for many reasons, but in the end in the long run, the high dollar games will
come from 100% un-altered but 100% working and good condition games. The
guy that pays the crazy money for the perfect unaltered game is also the guy
that will never play it (goes back to the classic car example). He will
take pride in that he has beat time (or so he thinks) and has something that
is like new, but has been unavailable for years. Thats what it always gets
down to.
Neil Bradley
news:c3165j$21ifvp$1...@ID-90035.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > 1) It's really irritating to me to hear people say "it's better if it's
> > original". Define "better". Certainly not worth more. Most everyone
values
> > clearcoated playfields. I've seen a few people on RGP make the claim
that
> > clearcoating overall is a bad idea on ANY pin.
> Uhhh, you list why its a bad idea in your post below in #1,2,3,4, and 6.
No, I list things to take in to consideration if they're thinking about
doing so. That doesn't make it a bad idea FOR EVERYONE. Remember that not
everyone holds the same values/desires as you.
> Right now clearcoated pins will bring more because its the current 'in
> thing'.
And it will be from now on. Otherwise Williams wouldn't have diamond plated
their playfields. The #1 (when they were still making pins) pinball
manufacturer seems to think it's a good idea. Sounds like you disagree with
them. ;-)
> Check other hobbies, widen your vision and you will see the
> simularities. Cars is always the easiest example because there are
> restorations and preservations on so many different financial levels.
But it's a flawed analogy, because cars are clearcoated at the factory, and
those that aren't can still be touched up and clearcoated later if the paint
is still good, but most often it isn't. Playfields are a different story.
> > 2) There are those against clearcoating with religious ferver, and I
don't
> > understand this. I don't understand why it needs violent emotion, and I
> > many posts the anti clearcoaters make, but make absolutely NO
substantive
> > claims that pertain to clearcoating a pinball machine playfield.
> I think I have shown that I am not a clearcoat guy and did this without
> violent emotion.
No, but note that you have now responded to 3 messages stating "it's not a
good idea" to everyone. Why is one not good enough? Why so much energy
trying to convince people?
> > 3) The whole concept of "keeping it original" is just silly except to
the
> > handful of people who are super anal about such things. It reminds me of
> > people who are more attached to the equipment itself than the game it
> > represents. As an example, I had a "collector" not want to buy my Joust
> > machine because it didn't have the unreliable, heat generating, original
> Interesting that you would take that point of view, if you would have put
in
> the time on your joust that you did on the clearcoat job of the pin, you
> would have sold the game. The original power supplies are extremely
> reliable (will outlast the crappy switcher that you installed).
How many arcades do you own? Do you operate 70+ games 12 hours a day 7 days
a week 361 days a year? I do. I've had every linear power supply go bad in
the Williams games we have (Joust, Defender, Stargate, Robotron) , either by
bad rectifiers, cold solder joints, or burned up resistors. They are
designed to deliver just barely enough current on the 5 volt line.
> very easy to take the shortcut and throw a switcher in the game. It also
> would have cost you less to fix it right then to convert it to a switcher.
You don't know that. The power supply I put in cost $4.48 and it has been
running stably for a year. It also uses less electricity and generates less
heat. I had repaired that specific board with new diodes, a new rectifier,
new capacitors - all of good quality and it burned up in 6 months under
light use. Took me 20 minutes to put the switcher in. Never have had a
problem since.
> MAME). He wanted an 100% original joust that wasn't 'hacked'. This very
> reason is why the cleared games should be worth less eventially (time will
> tell).
Which will be worth more - a game that has wear or one that's clearcoated
and doesn't? Sorry, the latter will win every time, because 99.9% of the
people out there want a clean, unblemished game, and clearcoating it will
protect it. Even you stated so.
>And you know why your game didn't sell, because it was very easy
> for the buyer to move on and buy a 100% original one.
That's OK. Someone bought it the next day. ;-) I wish I had 20 Jousts to
sell... I would've had buyers for all of them.
> > 4) Clearcoating protects. Period. Otherwise automobile manufacturers
> > wouldn't have done it for the past God knows how long. The speculation
> > seen on RGP of what COULD happen is nothing more than conjecture.
> It sure does protect, no one will argue you there, but would you take a
10
> year old car into the body shop and have them shoot some clear on 10 year
> old paint. The painter will laugh at you, he will tell you to sand it
> down, prime it, shoot color, then shoot the clear. Its not conjecture,
> because people have already replied of clear problems.
And those clearcoat problems were due to specific cases (e.g. separation of
decals from the clear with a overlayed playfield or an "at home" first
timer's approach to doing it). It does not mean that clearcoating GLOBALLY
is a bad idea. Differentiate the two!
That analogy would work if we "sanded down", "primed" and "shot color" on
pinball playfields, but we don't.
Guess what? Pinball manufacturers do! They use clearcoat! That's what
Diamond Plating is... although it's a lot lighter than what I'd use.
> > 1) I highly recommend clearcoating... if it's done right. I don't know
> > "right" means, but I've personally witnessed many of Bill Davis'
> > many of which have survived beautifully for YEARS. It's very easy to do
a
> > lousy job of clearcoating (lack of sanding, lack of layers, etc...). You
> > can't take a can of Krylon and spray it and make it look good. It won't
> > happen. But at the same time, don't get the idea that clearcoating as a
> > whole is bad just because someone has a bad experience. There are dozens
> > factors that can contribute to the quality of a clearcoat job.
> Yep and with all those factors, thats why for many its not worth it (and
for
> many it is)
For most it is worth it, for a few it is not.
> > 2) Ripping off all of the playfield electronics is a *TON* of work. If
you
> > think it'll take you 2 weekends to do, multiply that by 3, and it's more
> > realistic. You'll find all kinds of alignment problems, wires you wired
up
> > wrong (even if you took pictures), staples shorting out GI, diodes
ripped
> I think this is why many do it, its a very high end labor intensive
> project. Many collectors don't play their pins, they work on them. They
> are looking for these type of large man hour projects.
Oh please. Yeah, like people actually do that for FUN.
> > 3) If your playfield is in excellent shape and you're planning on having
> > home use only, it most likely doesn't make sense to clearcoat. The wear
> > isn't anywhere near as muchas it would be if the game were in an arcade.
> And this group is made up primarly of home collectors (not operators). So
> for this reason here most people should not clear coat
One man's negative is another man's positive. The other items here are
possibly bonus enough for someone else to want to clearcoat. I stated
caveats and positives to doing so. You just said "You shouldn't clearcoat".
That's promoting religion, not exposing the options so people can choose
themselves. I gave a context, you didn't.
> > 4) Once you clearcoat a game, gameplay speeds up significantly. My Black
> > Knight 2000 is lighting fast, and breaks off flipper bats every few
> > The targets within the machine will take more of a beating, as do the
> This is my personal reason that I would not want a machine clearcoated. I
> want my game to play the way they did 'back in the day' .
But many would want the faster gameplay. My customers seem to love it.
> example with the joust. I don't want to play 'super duper joust 2000 with
> unlimited lives and twice the gameplay speed' . I want to play the game
of
> joust that I remember playing in the arcade.
First off, you're talking about changing the rules of the game. We're not
discussing that, here.
Secondly, let's take that argument a bit further. When the pin left the
factory, it played as fast as a clearcoated machine, especially if it had
diamond plating. Over time it plays slower because of playfield friction. So
you tell me - would you rather have a pin closer to factory play or one that
has been worn down?
> People collect arcade games
> for many reasons, but in the end in the long run, the high dollar games
will
> come from 100% un-altered but 100% working and good condition games.
You don't know that.
-->Neil
Mickster
> > > clearcoating overall is a bad idea on ANY pin.
> > Uhhh, you list why its a bad idea in your post below in #1,2,3,4, and
6.
>
> No, I list things to take in to consideration if they're thinking about
> doing so. That doesn't make it a bad idea FOR EVERYONE. Remember that not
> everyone holds the same values/desires as you.
I never said everyone, but do believe and have stated why that down the
road the altered games will be worth less, not because I what I personally
want, but how collectibles usually go.
>
> > Right now clearcoated pins will bring more because its the current 'in
> > thing'.
>
> And it will be from now on. Otherwise Williams wouldn't have diamond
plated
> their playfields. The #1 (when they were still making pins) pinball
> manufacturer seems to think it's a good idea. Sounds like you disagree
with
> them. ;-)
Big difference on factory applied and owner applied years later.
>
> > Check other hobbies, widen your vision and you will see the
> > simularities. Cars is always the easiest example because there are
> > restorations and preservations on so many different financial levels.
>
> But it's a flawed analogy, because cars are clearcoated at the factory,
and
> those that aren't can still be touched up and clearcoated later if the
paint
> is still good, but most often it isn't. Playfields are a different story.
Sounds the same to me, you have an object that is out in use some are ok to
touch up, some or not.
>
> > > 2) There are those against clearcoating with religious ferver, and I
> don't
> > > understand this. I don't understand why it needs violent emotion, and
I
> > > many posts the anti clearcoaters make, but make absolutely NO
> substantive
> > > claims that pertain to clearcoating a pinball machine playfield.
> > I think I have shown that I am not a clearcoat guy and did this without
> > violent emotion.
>
> No, but note that you have now responded to 3 messages stating "it's not a
> good idea" to everyone. Why is one not good enough? Why so much energy
> trying to convince people?
Not trying to convince anyone, this thread peaked my interest so I
responded, I have found the older that I get, that for the most part no one
ever changes there mind (so I doubt I or you will convince anyone). Most of
the time, people pick the side that they already believed in and just use
the facts that support their own view. It isn't too often when someone will
change their view (and those that do, even less will admit it). I responded
because I enjoy reading and posting in usenet, nothing more.
>
> > > 3) The whole concept of "keeping it original" is just silly except to
> the
> > > handful of people who are super anal about such things. It reminds me
of
> > > people who are more attached to the equipment itself than the game it
> > > represents. As an example, I had a "collector" not want to buy my
Joust
> > > machine because it didn't have the unreliable, heat generating,
original
> > Interesting that you would take that point of view, if you would have
put
> in
> > the time on your joust that you did on the clearcoat job of the pin, you
> > would have sold the game. The original power supplies are extremely
> > reliable (will outlast the crappy switcher that you installed).
>
> How many arcades do you own? Do you operate 70+ games 12 hours a day 7
days
> a week 361 days a year? I do. I've had every linear power supply go bad in
> the Williams games we have (Joust, Defender, Stargate, Robotron) , either
by
> bad rectifiers, cold solder joints, or burned up resistors. They are
> designed to deliver just barely enough current on the 5 volt line.
Don't need to, this group is made up if primarly home collectors, Very
rare are the needs of the machines in this group fit into your above hours.
I will say this its funny that you would say 70+ machines, because I have
40+ sitting behind me in my rec room, my how this hobby has gotten out of
hand!!!! Poor design really isn't an issue for games in running in the
home. They just don't run enough for it to matter. Problem is that your
arguments come from and operators point of view, those views are not
always the same as the home collector.
>
> > very easy to take the shortcut and throw a switcher in the game. It
also
> > would have cost you less to fix it right then to convert it to a
switcher.
>
> You don't know that. The power supply I put in cost $4.48 and it has been
> running stably for a year. It also uses less electricity and generates
less
> heat. I had repaired that specific board with new diodes, a new rectifier,
> new capacitors - all of good quality and it burned up in 6 months under
> light use. Took me 20 minutes to put the switcher in. Never have had a
> problem since.
Well you do have me beat on the price, recommendations in
rec.video.games.arcade.collecting have pretty much been to rebuild the
linear and it will last the life of the game in the home.
> > > 4) Clearcoating protects. Period. Otherwise automobile manufacturers
> > > wouldn't have done it for the past God knows how long. The speculation
> > > seen on RGP of what COULD happen is nothing more than conjecture.
> > It sure does protect, no one will argue you there, but would you take a
> 10
> > year old car into the body shop and have them shoot some clear on 10
year
> > old paint. The painter will laugh at you, he will tell you to sand it
> > down, prime it, shoot color, then shoot the clear. Its not
conjecture,
> > because people have already replied of clear problems.
>
> And those clearcoat problems were due to specific cases (e.g. separation
of
> decals from the clear with a overlayed playfield or an "at home" first
> timer's approach to doing it). It does not mean that clearcoating GLOBALLY
> is a bad idea. Differentiate the two!
You may be misunderstanding what I mean here. It is globally a bad idea (
in my view ).
a) more to lose than what you gain (chance of ruining game just to take
shine over the top)
b) expensive enough that people will try to take shortcuts or think they are
up to the task themselves.Like circuit board repair, every day one or more
is being destroyed due to people thinking they are up to the task.
c)changes gameplay from original (you said yourself that you are snapping
flipper bats)
d)changes longterm value permanently (here we really disagree, you say for
the better, I say for the worse)
e) a very radical solution to something that really isn't a problem (wear in
the home)
>
> That analogy would work if we "sanded down", "primed" and "shot color" on
> pinball playfields, but we don't.
> Guess what? Pinball manufacturers do! They use clearcoat! That's what
> Diamond Plating is... although it's a lot lighter than what I'd use.
Yep, I am all for clear when its new from the factory, big difference
between new and trying to add it down road.
> > > 2) Ripping off all of the playfield electronics is a *TON* of work. If
> you
> > > think it'll take you 2 weekends to do, multiply that by 3, and it's
more
> > > realistic. You'll find all kinds of alignment problems, wires you
wired
> up
> > > wrong (even if you took pictures), staples shorting out GI, diodes
> ripped
> > I think this is why many do it, its a very high end labor intensive
> > project. Many collectors don't play their pins, they work on them.
They
> > are looking for these type of large man hour projects.
>
> Oh please. Yeah, like people actually do that for FUN.
ahhh, spoken like an operator and not a collector, people buy them to do
just that. Open your mind a bit, there is a guy right now stripping the
playfield just for the challenge (not like he is going to play the game so
much he is going to wear it out), just like there is a guy somewhere doing a
frame off restoration of a corvette that he will never drive. Both are
doing it for the same reason.
>
> > > 3) If your playfield is in excellent shape and you're planning on
having
> > > home use only, it most likely doesn't make sense to clearcoat. The
wear
> > > isn't anywhere near as muchas it would be if the game were in an
arcade.
> > And this group is made up primarly of home collectors (not operators).
So
> > for this reason here most people should not clear coat
>
> One man's negative is another man's positive. The other items here are
> possibly bonus enough for someone else to want to clearcoat. I stated
> caveats and positives to doing so. You just said "You shouldn't
clearcoat".
> That's promoting religion, not exposing the options so people can choose
> themselves. I gave a context, you didn't.
hehehe, I wouldn't say my argueing against your points as promoting
religion, now who is overeacting! I am sure our public conversation
isn't changing anyones mind. I don't have to give context, I write my
replies as I read the post, unless I can get paid to post in usenet, this
is about a fancy as I am going to get on replies (or posts)
>
> > > 4) Once you clearcoat a game, gameplay speeds up significantly. My
Black
> > > Knight 2000 is lighting fast, and breaks off flipper bats every few
> > > The targets within the machine will take more of a beating, as do the
> > This is my personal reason that I would not want a machine clearcoated.
I
> > want my game to play the way they did 'back in the day' .
>
> But many would want the faster gameplay. My customers seem to love it.
>
I am sure they do and so will a lot of home owners at this point. Our
difference in opinion about down the road, not now.
> > example with the joust. I don't want to play 'super duper joust 2000
with
> > unlimited lives and twice the gameplay speed' . I want to play the game
> of
> > joust that I remember playing in the arcade.
>
> First off, you're talking about changing the rules of the game. We're not
> discussing that, here.
>
you said yourself it is a noticable difference in ball speed, thats no
different than kicking up gameplay speed in a video game.
> Secondly, let's take that argument a bit further. When the pin left the
> factory, it played as fast as a clearcoated machine, especially if it had
> diamond plating. Over time it plays slower because of playfield friction.
So
> you tell me - would you rather have a pin closer to factory play or one
that
> has been worn down?
ahhh, then you separate it into 3 groups of players. If I went truly for
reproducing the memories from 'back in the day' it would be a non worn, but
slightly dirty playfield. That would be the most realistic. Actually I
would prefer to have something as close to new as possible without anything
being majorly hacked by the previous owner (I am like that on all my stuff
not just pins).
>
> > People collect arcade games
> > for many reasons, but in the end in the long run, the high dollar games
> will
> > come from 100% un-altered but 100% working and good condition games.
>
> You don't know that.
>
no one does yet, but thats my opinion and prediction, I think thats pretty
much what usenet is all about is posting points of view.
Tim Hanian
original" thought.
I'm a big proponent of clearcoating and have installed several Bill Davis
clearcoated playfields in my games and yes, it will tend to smooth out an
imperfect playfield surface, therefore a little less friction and a slightly
faster game. What I find that gets overlooked, and is really as much a
cause for the perceived increase in speed, is that most people, when
reinstalling their freshly cleared playfield, will also rebuild flippers,
pop bumpers, slingshots, as well as address any other broken or worn parts.
When you put all of those things together the perception is a dramatic
increase in speed when actually it's only slightly faster than it was when
new. Thing is not all of can remember what they played like "right out of
the box".
Tim
"Mickster" <mick...@derbyworks.net> wrote in message
news:c3165j$21ifvp$1...@ID-90035.news.uni-berlin.de...
Neil Bradley
> > And it will be from now on. Otherwise Williams wouldn't have diamond
> > manufacturer seems to think it's a good idea. Sounds like you disagree
> Big difference on factory applied and owner applied years later.
It depends upon the shape of the playfield when it's applied later on.
> > How many arcades do you own? Do you operate 70+ games 12 hours a day 7
> > a week 361 days a year? I do. I've had every linear power supply go bad
in
> > the Williams games we have (Joust, Defender, Stargate, Robotron) ,
either
> > bad rectifiers, cold solder joints, or burned up resistors. They are
> > designed to deliver just barely enough current on the 5 volt line.
> Don't need to, this group is made up if primarly home collectors, Very
> rare are the needs of the machines in this group fit into your above
hours.
> I will say this its funny that you would say 70+ machines, because I have
> 40+ sitting behind me in my rec room, my how this hobby has gotten out of
> hand!!!!
But I'm assuming they aren't on 12 hours a day 361 days a year (but nod in
your direction for the 40+ games - that's a good kind of insanity).
> Poor design really isn't an issue for games in running in the
> home. They just don't run enough for it to matter. Problem is that your
> arguments come from and operators point of view, those views are not
> always the same as the home collector.
Well, consider that I was a home collector for about 7 years prior to being
an operator, and regardless of that, I still feel compelled to replace poor
design (I'm a sw/hw engineer by profession, BTW).
> > You don't know that. The power supply I put in cost $4.48 and it has
been
> > running stably for a year. It also uses less electricity and generates
> > heat
> Well you do have me beat on the price, recommendations in
> rec.video.games.arcade.collecting have pretty much been to rebuild the
> linear and it will last the life of the game in the home.
Based on what, though? I'm looking at cost, ease of installation, and less
energy used and less heat generated. Hard to see that that's not a win all
the way around.
> > And those clearcoat problems were due to specific cases (e.g. separation
> > decals from the clear with a overlayed playfield or an "at home" first
> > timer's approach to doing it). It does not mean that clearcoating
GLOBALLY
> > is a bad idea. Differentiate the two!
> You may be misunderstanding what I mean here. It is globally a bad idea (
> in my view ).
That's your opinon. Most others disagree.
> a) more to lose than what you gain (chance of ruining game just to take
> shine over the top)
> b) expensive enough that people will try to take shortcuts or think they
are
> up to the task themselves.Like circuit board repair, every day one or more
> is being destroyed due to people thinking they are up to the task.
So.... what does this mean, that people shouldn't repair their own games?
> c)changes gameplay from original (you said yourself that you are snapping
> flipper bats)
Changes game speed, not game play.
> d)changes longterm value permanently (here we really disagree, you say for
> the better, I say for the worse)
And most everyone disagrees with you and will continue to do so. We'll talk
in 10 years when my BK2K is still in pristine shape. ;-)
> e) a very radical solution to something that really isn't a problem (wear
in
> the home)
Yeah, but others do it because they like the shinier look and faster
gameplay.
> > Guess what? Pinball manufacturers do! They use clearcoat! That's what
> > Diamond Plating is... although it's a lot lighter than what I'd use.
> Yep, I am all for clear when its new from the factory, big difference
> between new and trying to add it down road.
So then you shouldn't have a problem with clearcoating NOS playfields like I
did, then.
> > Oh please. Yeah, like people actually do that for FUN.
> ahhh, spoken like an operator and not a collector, people buy them to do
> just that. Open your mind a bit, there is a guy right now stripping the
> playfield just for the challenge (not like he is going to play the game so
> much he is going to wear it out), just like there is a guy somewhere doing
a
> frame off restoration of a corvette that he will never drive. Both are
> doing it for the same reason.
Remember, I've been a collector for years, but an operator for 1. I always
did it for a reason (new playfield, wanting to really shop things out). If
there are people doing it for "fun", then they're far and few between.
> > That's promoting religion, not exposing the options so people can choose
> > themselves. I gave a context, you didn't.
> hehehe, I wouldn't say my argueing against your points as promoting
> religion, now who is overeacting! I am sure our public conversation
> isn't changing anyones mind. I don't have to give context, I write my
> replies as I read the post, unless I can get paid to post in usenet, this
> is about a fancy as I am going to get on replies (or posts)
Posting why someone just shouldn't clearcoat because it isn't "original" or
"will ruin the value of the game" is half conjecture and assumes that most
everyone cares that it's "original" - they don't.
> > > This is my personal reason that I would not want a machine
clearcoated.
> > > want my game to play the way they did 'back in the day' .
> > But many would want the faster gameplay. My customers seem to love it.
> I am sure they do and so will a lot of home owners at this point. Our
> difference in opinion about down the road, not now.
Which is conjecture for either of us. We don't know what will happen. But I
see no reason that clearcoat wouldn't protect the playfield now and forever.
> > > example with the joust. I don't want to play 'super duper joust 2000
> > > unlimited lives and twice the gameplay speed' . I want to play the
game
> > > joust that I remember playing in the arcade.
> > First off, you're talking about changing the rules of the game. We're
not
> > discussing that, here.
> you said yourself it is a noticable difference in ball speed, thats no
> different than kicking up gameplay speed in a video game.
But it has nothing to do with unlimited lives. It doesn't change the rules
of the game, only the game speed.
-->Neil
Mickster
> > rec.video.games.arcade.collecting have pretty much been to rebuild the
> > linear and it will last the life of the game in the home.
>
> Based on what, though? I'm looking at cost, ease of installation, and less
> energy used and less heat generated. Hard to see that that's not a win all
> the way around.
>
It would be a win all the way around if it wasn't for the fact that it isn't
original. While that is of no concern to you and others, it is a concern to
some.
>
> That's your opinon. Most others disagree.
Ahhh, if I were like you this is where I would demand to have facts,
figures, percentages and proof sent in triplicate to a judge somewhere.
>
> > a) more to lose than what you gain (chance of ruining game just to take
> > shine over the top)
> > b) expensive enough that people will try to take shortcuts or think they
> are
> > up to the task themselves.Like circuit board repair, every day one or
more
> > is being destroyed due to people thinking they are up to the task.
>
> So.... what does this mean, that people shouldn't repair their own games?
>
No but to think some won't be destroyed in the process is a little nieve.
It happens all the time, people want to make it better and in some cases in
the end its worse.
> > c)changes gameplay from original (you said yourself that you are
snapping
> > flipper bats)
>
> Changes game speed, not game play.
Change in game speed is a change in game play
>
> > d)changes longterm value permanently (here we really disagree, you say
for
> > the better, I say for the worse)
>
> And most everyone disagrees with you and will continue to do so. We'll
talk
> in 10 years when my BK2K is still in pristine shape. ;-)
Like I said before, I doubt this thread is changing anyones mind. Its
possible that this thread will still be active in 10 years! If I throw a
opinon in about mirror glaze pinballs should pretty much guarantee it. I
bet if you check the condition of my games in ten years they will be in the
same shape also. My biggest gripe about aftermarket clear coating is that
its unneeded. So if your machine is still nice in 10 years it really
doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.
>
> > > Guess what? Pinball manufacturers do! They use clearcoat! That's what
> > > Diamond Plating is... although it's a lot lighter than what I'd use.
> > Yep, I am all for clear when its new from the factory, big difference
> > between new and trying to add it down road.
>
> So then you shouldn't have a problem with clearcoating NOS playfields like
I
> did, then.
>
I don't have a problem with anything you do, you paided for it so go right
ahead, paint it black for all I care. I think clearcoating NOS playfields
is definitely unneeded. You can't tell me that a home use only pinball
machine with a replacement playfield will wear out a second playfield. But
I realize you may be clearcoating those playfields for shine and speed, I
wouldn't but many would (expecially since they are stripped so there is no
labor involved in stripping them)
>
> > > That's promoting religion, not exposing the options so people can
choose
> > > themselves. I gave a context, you didn't.
> > hehehe, I wouldn't say my argueing against your points as promoting
> > religion, now who is overeacting! I am sure our public conversation
> > isn't changing anyones mind. I don't have to give context, I write my
> > replies as I read the post, unless I can get paid to post in usenet,
this
> > is about a fancy as I am going to get on replies (or posts)
>
> Posting why someone just shouldn't clearcoat because it isn't "original"
or
> "will ruin the value of the game" is half conjecture and assumes that most
> everyone cares that it's "original" - they don't.
>
Ok, so you say that most everyone does not care that its not original. I
disagree on that one. It may be ok now, but there will be a day when no one
will know who Bill Davis even is.
> > > > This is my personal reason that I would not want a machine
> clearcoated.
> > > > want my game to play the way they did 'back in the day' .
> > > But many would want the faster gameplay. My customers seem to love it.
> > I am sure they do and so will a lot of home owners at this point. Our
> > difference in opinion about down the road, not now.
>
> Which is conjecture for either of us. We don't know what will happen. But
I
> see no reason that clearcoat wouldn't protect the playfield now and
forever.
>
Forever is a long time,
I guess what I have been telling you is that home use only pins don't need
protected (in my opinion) . Tell you what maybe you should spray clearcoat
on top of the clear coat to protect the clear coat. Then spray clear over
the whole machine to protect that, then spray it on yourself, you will be
shinier and be able to move around faster. Spray your entire house with
it!!!! What I am saying is that I don't doubt that the clearcoat is
protecting the playfield now and forever, thats what it does. But there
are downsides to everything, and clearing non-replaceable parts has a
downside.
> > > > example with the joust. I don't want to play 'super duper joust
2000
> > > > unlimited lives and twice the gameplay speed' . I want to play the
> game
> > > > joust that I remember playing in the arcade.
> > > First off, you're talking about changing the rules of the game. We're
> not
> > > discussing that, here.
> > you said yourself it is a noticable difference in ball speed, thats no
> > different than kicking up gameplay speed in a video game.
>
> But it has nothing to do with unlimited lives. It doesn't change the rules
> of the game, only the game speed.
>
Changing games speed does change the game, this one I can't understand why
you don't get this. I don't disagree that some people prefer it, but it is
a change.
Wow this thread is a hobby all in itself!
Victor Ireland
long term and rescuing PF's that look like crap before it's done. I'm
just about to send a Scared Stiff PF that's NOS away to be CC'ed
because it will sell better and for more (or trade) when clearcoated.
People don't want to wait 2-3 months to get their CC'ed once they hit
upon it, but they'll buy one that's already done and keep theirs for a
spare or send it out to be CC'ed while they're enjoying the one they
bought IN the machine.
I'm putting together a Dr. Who with a CC'ed PF and it's simply
stunning. I had all the stainless (a TON in that machine relative to
other williams/bally's) polished and when it's lit up, it's a sight to
behold. I can't wait until I finish the mini-PF reassembly and put
the ramps back on so I can *really* play it.
Neil Bradley
> > Based on what, though? I'm looking at cost, ease of installation, and
less
> > energy used and less heat generated. Hard to see that that's not a win
all
> > the way around.
> It would be a win all the way around if it wasn't for the fact that it
isn't
> original
Which 99.9999% of the people out there don't care. ;-)
>. While that is of no concern to you and others, it is a concern to
> some.
Very few others.
> > That's your opinon. Most others disagree.
> Ahhh, if I were like you this is where I would demand to have facts,
> figures, percentages and proof sent in triplicate to a judge somewhere.
Based on response in RGP and the price of clearcoated pins on eBay is how I
arrive at my conclusions. The only negativity I've ever heard about it is
from Joel (with no details on his web site on why he doesn't like it), you
and perhaps 1 or 2 other people on RGP. Judge for yourself.
> > > a) more to lose than what you gain (chance of ruining game just to
take
> > > shine over the top)
> > > b) expensive enough that people will try to take shortcuts or think
they
> > are
> > > up to the task themselves.Like circuit board repair, every day one or
> more
> > > is being destroyed due to people thinking they are up to the task.
> >
> > So.... what does this mean, that people shouldn't repair their own
games?
> No but to think some won't be destroyed in the process is a little nieve.
That's not in debate.
> It happens all the time, people want to make it better and in some cases
in
> the end its worse.
Yup.
> > > c)changes gameplay from original (you said yourself that you are
> snapping
> > > flipper bats)
> > Changes game speed, not game play.
> Change in game speed is a change in game play
Your original quote "duper joust 2000 unlimited lives....". Last I checked
clearcoating a pinball machine doesn't give you more lives. Definitely
changes game speed, but not game play.
> Like I said before, I doubt this thread is changing anyones mind. Its
> possible that this thread will still be active in 10 years! If I throw a
> opinon in about mirror glaze pinballs should pretty much guarantee it.
Heh. Well, I ran some of Ken's balls in my arcade and after 6 months they
turned a yellowish brown. Normal Marco balls didn't have this problem, so
I've got a pretty good idea about that topic.
> bet if you check the condition of my games in ten years they will be in
the
> same shape also. My biggest gripe about aftermarket clear coating is that
> its unneeded.
Unneeded is a subjective thing. Remember also that playfields that already
have wear get accelerated wear. Clearcoating stops that.
> I don't have a problem with anything you do, you paided for it so go
right
> ahead, paint it black for all I care. I think clearcoating NOS
playfields
> is definitely unneeded. You can't tell me that a home use only pinball
> machine with a replacement playfield will wear out a second playfield.
Depends upon the household. That's my point. You can't make a blanket
statement and say that it's "unneeded", but rather you need to stay it's
"unneeded in low play situations".
> I realize you may be clearcoating those playfields for shine and speed, I
> wouldn't but many would (expecially since they are stripped so there is no
> labor involved in stripping them)
And to keep the inserts from lifting up or warping.
Now if you had a clearcoated playfield and tried it out and didn't like it,
then I could respect your opinions more. But there is such a thing as a
baseless opinion. I've been there. Have you?
> > Posting why someone just shouldn't clearcoat because it isn't "original"
> > "will ruin the value of the game" is half conjecture and assumes that
most
> > everyone cares that it's "original" - they don't.
> Ok, so you say that most everyone does not care that its not original.
I
> disagree on that one.
Okay, then you disagree with the way things are.
> I guess what I have been telling you is that home use only pins don't
need
> protected (in my opinion) .
And that you don't like the faster gameplay. I can certainly respect that as
a personal opinion, but your original words stated that "Clearcoating is a
bad idea" without qualifying what you value in clearcoating.
> on top of the clear coat to protect the clear coat. Then spray clear over
> the whole machine to protect that, then spray it on yourself, you will be
> shinier and be able to move around faster. Spray your entire house with
> it!!!! What I am saying is that I don't doubt that the clearcoat is
> protecting the playfield now and forever, thats what it does. But there
> are downsides to everything, and clearing non-replaceable parts has a
> downside.
So far it's not damage to the non replaceable parts, but I rationally
addressed the possible caveats which are a judgement call, not absolutes.
You didn't.
> > But it has nothing to do with unlimited lives. It doesn't change the
rules
> > of the game, only the game speed.
> Changing games speed does change the game,
It doesn't add additional lives.
> this one I can't understand why
> you don't get this
No, I get it just fine. It doesn't add additional lives or change the rules
of the game, only the game speed. I can't understand why you don't get that.
;-)
> I don't disagree that some people prefer it, but it is
> a change.
Some people like the faster gameplay, definitely. It's a change, but it's
not changing the rules of the game. Look above at what I said a little
closer.
-->Neil
Mickster
> And to keep the inserts from lifting up or warping.
Or thats where you will get your hazing and cracking. Hope that the clear
holds it down!!!!
Thats another bad thing that the clear has deal with, the inserts, they will
be definitely warmer than the wood areas, this could lead to problems of
the clear not being able to expand contract with the same amount as the
playfield below it. I guess thats another reason the clear spooks me. Its
not like you are spraying a solid object (like a cabinet, or car ) You are
spraying a piece of wood with a bunch of inserts that move. If the clear
holds it all together thats great. If it doesn't, uhhhh thats gonna suck!
Also, really the inserts should be pounded up( unless they are all
perfectly matched with the playfield which is doubtfull) and sanded flat to
the playfield. If you do that, then you lose the lettering on the insert.
> Now if you had a clearcoated playfield and tried it out and didn't like
it,
> then I could respect your opinions more. But there is such a thing as a
> baseless opinion. I've been there. Have you?
You haven't been there yet either, I am talking long term. I agree with you
the short term effects of clear is positive. People like it and as of now
pins are worth more that are cleared (seems like I have typed this a bunch
before). Its the long term thats at issue. The only way to predict is by
looking at other items that are now in the true antique age, Most items
are worth more if the are not f**ked with to put it bluntly. Scream and
shout all you want and tell me how many clear 'lemmings' are on your
bandwagon that only shows how the cycle is the same. People were doing
the same thing you are doing now 50 years ago. Some of the things they did
ruined what they were saving, some things did not. So go ahead and shoot
some clear, I don't care, but to tell me that just because you and the
current generation of guys have said this is the way to go doesn't make it
so.
>
> > > Posting why someone just shouldn't clearcoat because it isn't
"original"
> > > "will ruin the value of the game" is half conjecture and assumes that
> most
> > > everyone cares that it's "original" - they don't.
> > Ok, so you say that most everyone does not care that its not original.
> I
> > disagree on that one.
>
> Okay, then you disagree with the way things are.
No, I disagree with the way you see it, hehehehhe You do know that the
world doesn't revolve around just your ideas and thoughts don't you?????
It also doesn't revolve around standard public opinion in this newsgroup.
This newsgroup is the minority of pinball collectors out there, so even what
is good for the majority in this group does not necessarily good for pinball
collectors as a whole.
>
> > I guess what I have been telling you is that home use only pins don't
> need
> > protected (in my opinion) .
>
> And that you don't like the faster gameplay. I can certainly respect that
as
> a personal opinion, but your original words stated that "Clearcoating is a
> bad idea" without qualifying what you value in clearcoating.
I still think it is, it doesn't matter if I have met your standards on if I
should be able to say it or not. I think I have been pretty verbose to
why, I sure there is no one out there reading this wondering why the
mickster has forsaken clear coating.
>
> > on top of the clear coat to protect the clear coat. Then spray clear
over
> > the whole machine to protect that, then spray it on yourself, you will
be
> > shinier and be able to move around faster. Spray your entire house with
> > it!!!! What I am saying is that I don't doubt that the clearcoat is
> > protecting the playfield now and forever, thats what it does. But
there
> > are downsides to everything, and clearing non-replaceable parts has a
> > downside.
>
> So far it's not damage to the non replaceable parts, but I rationally
> addressed the possible caveats which are a judgement call, not absolutes.
> You didn't.
Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the risk,
if you or others cannot figure out that this is my opinion and also
understand where I get my opinion from then you really are not smart enough
to pull the parts off a playfield to do the clearcoating. You can argue
small syntax points all you want, but we both know where we stand and any
type of problems in the discussion that you are pointing out above are
mostly likely due to laziness to type out all conditions to fix all
situations. This is a newsgroup posting, not a legal boiler plate.
>
> > > But it has nothing to do with unlimited lives. It doesn't change the
> rules
> > > of the game, only the game speed.
> > Changing games speed does change the game,
>
> It doesn't add additional lives.
>
> > this one I can't understand why
> > you don't get this
>
> No, I get it just fine. It doesn't add additional lives or change the
rules
> of the game, only the game speed. I can't understand why you don't get
that.
> ;-)
Ok, I take out the addition lives if that makes you feel better. Play joust
on mame at 400% speed and tell me its the same game, its not. Same goes
with pinball, you speed up the ball and the game changes, starting to
nitpick here a bit, don't ya think!
>
> > I don't disagree that some people prefer it, but it is
> > a change.
>
> Some people like the faster gameplay, definitely. It's a change, but it's
> not changing the rules of the game. Look above at what I said a little
> closer.
>
You always know when the true argument is starting to die when you start
getting this detailed on whats typed back in forth. I think what you are
confusing is game rules and gameplay. I admit the game rules do not change.
The gameplay changes due to gamespeed of the ball. Is that good enough for
you!
metallik
> the short term effects of clear is positive. People like it and as of now
> pins are worth more that are cleared (seems like I have typed this a bunch
> before). Its the long term thats at issue. The only way to predict is by
> looking at other items that are now in the true antique age, Most items
Interesting debate here...
WMS has been using poly-based clears since 1988 (Banzai Run). I think
it is safe to say that all the Diamondplated games have held up far
better than lacquered games. Most of the aftermarket clears used today
are essentially the same as diamondplate, with the exception of
Varathane. Because of that, I see no problem/risk with a poly clear,
but I would avoid varathane, for the reasons you give (untested).
> are worth more if the are not f**ked with to put it bluntly. Scream and
> shout all you want and tell me how many clear 'lemmings' are on your
Playing a game to the point of wearing all the artwork off the playfield
is definitly "f**king with it" .. spraying clear is a better way to
"f**k with it." Antiques aren't a good comparison really, as the
typical piece of antique furniture doesn't have the "wear factor" a
pinball machine does.
> It also doesn't revolve around standard public opinion in this newsgroup.
> This newsgroup is the minority of pinball collectors out there, so even what
> is good for the majority in this group does not necessarily good for pinball
> collectors as a whole.
I disagree.. While there are certainly many collectors who have never
heard of RGP, I'd tend to think the majority of serious collectors at
least read occaionally, if not lurk or participate outright. Google has
brought the group to many people who would have otherwise never heard of
USENET.
> Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the risk,
> if you or others cannot figure out that this is my opinion and also
A perfectly fine opinion at that.
> understand where I get my opinion from then you really are not smart enough
> to pull the parts off a playfield to do the clearcoating. You can argue
> small syntax points all you want, but we both know where we stand and any
I understand your point. I don't agree with it though.
> Ok, I take out the addition lives if that makes you feel better. Play joust
> on mame at 400% speed and tell me its the same game, its not. Same goes
> with pinball, you speed up the ball and the game changes, starting to
> nitpick here a bit, don't ya think!
But, many, many things besides clearcoat will affect ball speed. After
moving and situating games throughout my new house, I've found that AC
wall voltage affects ball speed.. a game in a 115v outlet will play
slower than a game in a 120v outlet. Dirt and lack of wax will affect
speed far more than a fresh clearcoat, as will condition of flipper
parts. Quality of clearcoat is far, far down the line of
speed-enhancing items.. hell, I've played a BK2K with freshly waxed
mylar that puts diamondplated games to shame. Slope also plays a big
part, and WMS provides the 6.5-degree mark as a recommendation only -
some manuals actually advise incresing slope in skillful locations to
speed up play and reduce game times. Basically, there is no set "speed"
any particular game is supposed to play at.
> getting this detailed on whats typed back in forth. I think what you are
> confusing is game rules and gameplay. I admit the game rules do not change.
> The gameplay changes due to gamespeed of the ball. Is that good enough for
> you!
Again, the speed difference from clearcoat is negligible when all other
speed-affecting factors are weighed in.
Neil Bradley
> > Now if you had a clearcoated playfield and tried it out and didn't like
> > baseless opinion. I've been there. Have you?
> You haven't been there yet either, I am talking long term. I agree with
you
> the short term effects of clear is positive. People like it and as of now
> pins are worth more that are cleared (seems like I have typed this a bunch
> before). Its the long term thats at issue.
Then stop talking about what you think will happen because it's conjecture
on both of our parts. Let's talk again in 10 years.
> > Okay, then you disagree with the way things are.
> No, I disagree with the way you see it, hehehehhe You do know that the
> world doesn't revolve around just your ideas and thoughts don't you?????
Has nothing to do with my ideas or thoughts. Most people enjoy clearcoating.
Few, very loud people, don't.
> It also doesn't revolve around standard public opinion in this newsgroup.
You're right. It reaches farther than that.
> > And that you don't like the faster gameplay. I can certainly respect
that
> > a personal opinion, but your original words stated that "Clearcoating is
a
> > bad idea" without qualifying what you value in clearcoating.
> I still think it is, it doesn't matter if I have met your standards on if
I
> should be able to say it or not. I think I have been pretty verbose to
> why, I sure there is no one out there reading this wondering why the
> mickster has forsaken clear coating.
Initially they were until I took you to task on the specifics. ;-)
> > So far it's not damage to the non replaceable parts, but I rationally
> > addressed the possible caveats which are a judgement call, not
absolutes.
> > You didn't.
> Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the risk,
That's a value judgement, and a false statement. Clear coating is not worth
your personal perceived risk, but others don't share that opinion.
> if you or others cannot figure out that this is my opinion and also
> understand where I get my opinion from then you really are not smart
enough
> to pull the parts off a playfield to do the clearcoating. You can argue
> small syntax points all you want, but we both know where we stand and any
> type of problems in the discussion that you are pointing out above are
> mostly likely due to laziness to type out all conditions to fix all
> situations. This is a newsgroup posting, not a legal boiler plate.
Well, you're doing nothing but proving my point about being the
ravenous/aggressiveness about the whole issue. Why the religious ferver on
something that you can't prove? Religion is belief in something with no
proof. This certainly qualifies, as does your behavior.
> > > this one I can't understand why
> > > you don't get this
> > No, I get it just fine. It doesn't add additional lives or change the
> > of the game, only the game speed. I can't understand why you don't get
> > ;-)
> Ok, I take out the addition lives if that makes you feel better.
Hey, those were your words.
> Play joust
> on mame at 400% speed and tell me its the same game, its not. Same goes
> with pinball, you speed up the ball and the game changes, starting to
> nitpick here a bit, don't ya think!
So does changing the angle of the playfield, wear on the playfield,
condition of the balls, etc....
> > Some people like the faster gameplay, definitely. It's a change, but
it's
> > not changing the rules of the game. Look above at what I said a little
> > closer.
> You always know when the true argument is starting to die when you start
> getting this detailed on whats typed back in forth. I think what you are
> confusing is game rules and gameplay. I admit the game rules do not
change.
Not confusing it at all. You were the one mixing getting unlimited lives
with ball speed. ;-)
-->Neil
Mickster
> you
> > the short term effects of clear is positive. People like it and as of
now
> > pins are worth more that are cleared (seems like I have typed this a
bunch
> > before). Its the long term thats at issue.
>
> Then stop talking about what you think will happen because it's conjecture
> on both of our parts. Let's talk again in 10 years.
>
Ahhh, I should stop talking because you feel its conjecture. I think I
will stop posting when I feel like it, that is up to me, not to you.
>> > should be able to say it or not. I think I have been pretty verbose
to
> > why, I sure there is no one out there reading this wondering why the
> > mickster has forsaken clear coating.
>
> Initially they were until I took you to task on the specifics. ;-)
>
I don't really get what the winking it all about, but I have been very
verbose with every reply starting with the first one. Its common sense
that every post is just an opinion or statement from a single person on
what they feel. Once again I will state (since it bothers you so) that
overall the negatives outway the positives in clear coating.
> > > So far it's not damage to the non replaceable parts, but I rationally
> > > addressed the possible caveats which are a judgement call, not
> absolutes.
> > > You didn't.
> > Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the
risk,
>
> That's a value judgement, and a false statement. Clear coating is not
worth
> your personal perceived risk, but others don't share that opinion.
>
Some do and some don't. I also don't need others to share my opinion to
validate it.
> > if you or others cannot figure out that this is my opinion and also
> > understand where I get my opinion from then you really are not smart
> enough
> > to pull the parts off a playfield to do the clearcoating. You can
argue
> > small syntax points all you want, but we both know where we stand and
any
> > type of problems in the discussion that you are pointing out above are
> > mostly likely due to laziness to type out all conditions to fix all
> > situations. This is a newsgroup posting, not a legal boiler plate.
>
> Well, you're doing nothing but proving my point about being the
> ravenous/aggressiveness about the whole issue. Why the religious ferver on
> something that you can't prove? Religion is belief in something with no
> proof. This certainly qualifies, as does your behavior.
>
I am ravenous/aggressiveness because I doubt what you say and I doubt what
others that agree with you say??? I would say posting my opinion in public
about a subject of clear coating is pretty passive!!! The only reason
you sense aggressiveness would be your insecurity that someone doubts the
decisions that you have made.
>
> Not confusing it at all. You were the one mixing getting unlimited lives
> with ball speed. ;-)
>
>
Well you are getting pretty wordy on this arguement (once again, I don't get
the winking, are hitting on me or what). I think you know what i am
talking about, you are changing conditions of the game . Unlimited lives/
table pitch/ ball save times/ slickness of the table, blah blah blah will
all affect game play. If it didn't affect gameplay you wouldn't rave about
how wonderfull it is to play a game on a coated table. Once again it was
a very obvious comparison and was also completely clear on what I meant,
these are newsgroup postings typed on the fly, not legal documents.
Neil Bradley
> > > pins are worth more that are cleared (seems like I have typed this a
> > Then stop talking about what you think will happen because it's
conjecture
> > on both of our parts. Let's talk again in 10 years.
> Ahhh, I should stop talking because you feel its conjecture.
It is conjecture. Neither of us know what's going to happen in 10 years, so
stop speculating like you do know. You don't.
> > > why, I sure there is no one out there reading this wondering why the
> > > mickster has forsaken clear coating.
> > Initially they were until I took you to task on the specifics. ;-)
> I don't really get what the winking it all about,
It means the statement is said in jest and/or with slight teasing.
> but I have been very
> verbose with every reply starting with the first one. Its common sense
> that every post is just an opinion or statement from a single person on
> what they feel. Once again I will state (since it bothers you so) that
> overall the negatives outway the positives in clear coating.
IN YOUR OPINION with YOUR VALUE SET. If you're going to make a value
judgement at least post your concerns as to why you come to that conclusion
and let others decide rather than deciding for others.
> > > Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the
> risk,
> > That's a value judgement, and a false statement. Clear coating is not
> > your personal perceived risk, but others don't share that opinion.
> Some do and some don't.
Very few do, and most don't, but it's impossible for you to see that, I
guess.
> I also don't need others to share my opinion to
> validate it.
No, but you at least need to be fair when offering advice as fact when it's
an opinion. You stated "You shouldn't clearcoat." and not why (until I
cajoled you). You're offering your value judgement as if it's factual. Sorry
you can't see that.
> > Well, you're doing nothing but proving my point about being the
> > ravenous/aggressiveness about the whole issue. Why the religious ferver
on
> > something that you can't prove? Religion is belief in something with no
> > proof. This certainly qualifies, as does your behavior.
> I am ravenous/aggressiveness because I doubt what you say and I doubt
what
> others that agree with you say???
No, you're being ravenous/aggressive because you can't separate stating your
opinion as a fact from stating your opinion as an opinion.
> I would say posting my opinion in public
> about a subject of clear coating is pretty passive!!! The only reason
> you sense aggressiveness would be your insecurity that someone doubts the
> decisions that you have made.
No, I'm just tired of people like you stating things as if they're fact when
they're conjecture or a value judgement.
> Well you are getting pretty wordy on this arguement (once again, I don't
get
> the winking, are hitting on me or what). I think you know what i am
> talking about, you are changing conditions of the game .
No question - it makes the gameplay faster (I think I mentioned something
about that ;-) ). But why you mentioned unlimited lives is beyond me since
the comparison is flawed.
-->Neil
Mickster
so
> stop speculating like you do know. You don't.
I post and read for entertainment, if I feel like posting for whatever
reason, I am gonna post. There is nothing wrong with posting what I feel is
going to happen in the long run.
> IN YOUR OPINION with YOUR VALUE SET. If you're going to make a value
> judgement at least post your concerns as to why you come to that
conclusion
> and let others decide rather than deciding for others.
Of course everything I say is my opinion and my value set, I would say that
is pretty much implied (how long have you been reading newsgroups anyway).
I pretty much assumed when reading clays guides thats how clay would do it!
Once again I state clear coating is a bad idea (especially for home use
pins). I don't have to explain it (even if asked) if I don't want to. You
are assuming a whole bunch of newsgroup rules that aren't there. Ya just
can't handle someone posting with a different opinion as you, simple as
that. I don't have to meet your requirments to post what I feel is a fact
or an opinion.
>
> > > > Once again, I stated quite well that clear coating is not worth the
> > risk,
> > > That's a value judgement, and a false statement. Clear coating is not
> > > your personal perceived risk, but others don't share that opinion.
> > Some do and some don't.
>
> Very few do, and most don't, but it's impossible for you to see that, I
> guess.
Oh I do believe I am in the minority (we do disagree on the size of the
minority). So I see what you are saying.
>
> > I also don't need others to share my opinion to
> > validate it.
>
> No, but you at least need to be fair when offering advice as fact when
it's
> an opinion. You stated "You shouldn't clearcoat." and not why (until I
> cajoled you). You're offering your value judgement as if it's factual.
Sorry
> you can't see that.
I say it again, You shouldn't clearcoat, bad idea. Also there is no require
ment on verbosity on explantion of any discussion in these postings. This
is a public conversation that has no rules, The facts that I pull from are
not, from pinball, but other antiques in similar situations (cars ). Just
because I make a statement, does not require me to type of paragraph to
support those statements, if you or others question those statements, thats
up to you (which you have done) to question those statements. Sorry that I
don't fall in line with the clear coat lemmings. I am smart enough to know
that my machines don't fall into the catagory of that being the proper
solution.
>
> > > Well, you're doing nothing but proving my point about being the
> > > ravenous/aggressiveness about the whole issue. Why the religious
ferver
> on
> > > something that you can't prove? Religion is belief in something with
no
> > > proof. This certainly qualifies, as does your behavior.
> > I am ravenous/aggressiveness because I doubt what you say and I doubt
> what
> > others that agree with you say???
>
> No, you're being ravenous/aggressive because you can't separate stating
your
> opinion as a fact from stating your opinion as an opinion.
I don't have to post that my statements are opinions because I figure the
average reader of this group is smart enough to realize that 99% of what is
typed in the forum is opinions. Most postings are not quotes from text
books, they are electronic conversations.
I don't believe that I have been aggressive at all.
>
> > I would say posting my opinion in public
> > about a subject of clear coating is pretty passive!!! The only
reason
> > you sense aggressiveness would be your insecurity that someone doubts
the
> > decisions that you have made.
>
> No, I'm just tired of people like you stating things as if they're fact
when
> they're conjecture or a value judgement.
>
I think what you need to start doing is realizing the unimportance of the
bulk of newsgroup postings then. Very little of whats posted in this group
(and many others) is factual tech help. The bulk of its rambings of
different points of view. I have a right to express myself in these
postings anyway I see fit. I don't have fit your mold of how information
should be presented. So if you are tired of people like me, that is your
problem and no one elses.
> > Well you are getting pretty wordy on this arguement (once again, I don't
> get
> > the winking, are hitting on me or what). I think you know what i am
> > talking about, you are changing conditions of the game .
>
> No question - it makes the gameplay faster (I think I mentioned something
> about that ;-) ). But why you mentioned unlimited lives is beyond me since
> the comparison is flawed.
>
Well if it will make you feel better (this is still just a syntax wordy type
arguement) take everything out but gamespeed. Jack up joust to 150% normal
speed and jack up pinball ball speed by 150 %(I am sure clearcoating doesn't
make that radical of an speedup) . You have changed the gameplay of both
games. Gamespeed changes gameplay. Thats what I am saying. Some people
like speed ups (like the ms pac and pacman speed up chips). I like things
unaltered.
Mickster
pinball owners now are fighting the same things that they were fighting 10
years ago. 10 years ago primarly operators were buying machines that they
wanted the most plays as possible before dumping the machine and buying
another. So the main thing that they were fighting was wear. Now, the
primary person in this group (collectors) are not fighting wear, they are
fighting time. Back then a 10 year old machine was worn out from play. 10
years from now home owned machines will have problems due to time not wear.
For example, a daily driver corvette will need brake work in a few years due
to worn components. A collector corvette will need a brake job in 5-10
years due to breakdown of materials (mostly rubber components) and moisture
from the air. So, while the clearcoating probably extends the playfield
wear well beyond any other part in the machine (making it essentially
unlimited mileage and still look great) it does add another layer of
chemicals to breakdown over time. I think that many feel that clearcoat is
like saran wrap its a big piece of 'mylar' so to speak covering the
playfield and will hold everything together. I see it more like glue,
something that can and will change over time. It will expand and contract at
different rates than things below it. No can of freeze spray is going to
pull it up either.
I do agree its great for machines that see heavy use, machines that
playfields are already destroyed, and to machines that the owners want the
highest gloss at whatever the cost.
I find it hard to believe that the majority of home owned machines will ever
see heavy use though. And operators will never go to the work or expense to
have extra work done on a old machine. So the pretty much just leaves the
die hard collectors that just have to have that gloss. Its sorta like a
high end mod. The most radical thing you can do to the playfield.
I think part of it comes from people wanting to somehow beat the system.
There machine is going to last longer than others because they have the
secret. An example of this is a posting in
rec.games.video.arcade.collecting. A collector believed that his games were
going to last longer because he turned them all on for 1 hour a week at
least. He felt that he was burning off moisture of components and by
running electricity through components they were less likely to fail. I
realize this is not quite in the same league as clearcoating, but it does
show how people seem to instinctively look for something to actively do to
help the situation when usually the best thing to do is nothing.
I don't really care if others clearcoat or not (I know with all that I typed
it doesnt' seem that way). I think what does interest me though is the
advantages and disadvantages of the things people do in this hobby to
supposedly 'beat the system'.
What does make it hard to predict is that paint processes have changed so
much in the last 50 years that you can't really look at old pinball machines
and see the mistakes. Too many variables have changed.
JC
expanding, etc. may actually be a point in favor of clear coating for
people, like me, in an area of the country that has little weather
extremity. I'm in San Francisco and 80% of the year (at least) is in
within a 10 degree range. Of course global warming, giving us
freakishly warm weather right now (in the 80s in S.F. in MARCH?!?!?!?)
may change that, but you follow what I'm saying. We have little
hummidity changes and a maximum change of 30 degrees over the course
of a year. I'd think this is a big plus for clear coating.
-JC-
"Mickster" <mick...@derbyworks.net> wrote in message news:<c37ek8$23s604$1...@ID-90035.news.uni-berlin.de>...