Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
EM Tech: Gottlieb Sure Shot - Score Motor / Series Relay questions.
421 views
Skip to first unread message
cdnpinballer
Aug 22, 2012, 4:34:58 PM8/22/12
to
I am a total noob when it comes to EM's, I am a Bally SS guy but I am
getting into EM's to try something different.
My first Gottlieb EM project is a Sure Shot. I got the game to power
up and the score motor starts turning but does not stop.
I thought the problem might be the zero position switches on the score
reels so checked continuity there and everything was fine. Also, I
put scores on all reels and they all reset to zero so I think that
isn't the problem.
Then I checked the coin door switches and everything appears fine
there, no closed switches.
Then I checked the score motor switches and everything looks fine but
I really need to make sure the score motor 'home' switches have
continuity. Can someone with the schematics for this game please let
me know where the score motor home switches are? I don't have
schematics although they are on my shopping list for PBR.
The one thing I haven't done yet is clean the male connector pins in
be back box and coin door. They don't look very good and I will be
cleaning them up with a wire brush tonight to see if that has any
impact. Maybe that is where the problem lies regarding the score
motor.
Another issue I am going to have to deal with is a missing contact
point on the series relay. I tried jumpering the contacts and it
doesn't change my score motor problem so I think they are unrelated
but I am not sure. Can someone let me know what the purpose of the
series relay is?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
getting into EM's to try something different.
My first Gottlieb EM project is a Sure Shot. I got the game to power
up and the score motor starts turning but does not stop.
I thought the problem might be the zero position switches on the score
reels so checked continuity there and everything was fine. Also, I
put scores on all reels and they all reset to zero so I think that
isn't the problem.
Then I checked the coin door switches and everything appears fine
there, no closed switches.
Then I checked the score motor switches and everything looks fine but
I really need to make sure the score motor 'home' switches have
continuity. Can someone with the schematics for this game please let
me know where the score motor home switches are? I don't have
schematics although they are on my shopping list for PBR.
The one thing I haven't done yet is clean the male connector pins in
be back box and coin door. They don't look very good and I will be
cleaning them up with a wire brush tonight to see if that has any
impact. Maybe that is where the problem lies regarding the score
motor.
Another issue I am going to have to deal with is a missing contact
point on the series relay. I tried jumpering the contacts and it
doesn't change my score motor problem so I think they are unrelated
but I am not sure. Can someone let me know what the purpose of the
series relay is?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Joe Grenuk
Aug 22, 2012, 5:20:19 PM8/22/12
to
Checking continuity on an EM is not very helpful. I brought hundreds
back to life (and some were really dead) before I owned a meter. What
you do need is the schematic. It will tell you which 8-10-12 switches
will make the motor run. You have to run through those switches and
rule them out one by one. I don't have one for that game, but maybe
someone does and will send you a scan. Otherwise, order one from PBR.
And it is very rare that a score motor running on is due to a jones
plug. You should clean them in the normal course, but it would be
unusual if that fixed your problem.
back to life (and some were really dead) before I owned a meter. What
you do need is the schematic. It will tell you which 8-10-12 switches
will make the motor run. You have to run through those switches and
rule them out one by one. I don't have one for that game, but maybe
someone does and will send you a scan. Otherwise, order one from PBR.
And it is very rare that a score motor running on is due to a jones
plug. You should clean them in the normal course, but it would be
unusual if that fixed your problem.
otis
Aug 22, 2012, 6:13:26 PM8/22/12
to
and not reading further, you need the schematic. There are a bunch of
"make" switches that are in parallel to the score motor. One of them
is not opening up after the reset cycle. You need to know all the
relays involved and just start cleaning all the contacts and checking
the gaps. That will clear up the problem.
JC
Kerry Imming
Aug 22, 2012, 7:47:16 PM8/22/12
to
"otis" <otis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cdc0399c-9603-45f1...@f4g2000pbq.googlegroups.com...
>Joe hit the nail on the head. After reading the first two paragraphs
>and not reading further, you need the schematic. There are a bunch of
>"make" switches that are in parallel to the score motor. One of them
>is not opening up after the reset cycle. You need to know all the
>relays involved and just start cleaning all the contacts and checking
>the gaps. That will clear up the problem.
start-up sequence. Not exact, but your 1976 1-player should be similar.
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0463.html
- Kerry
Lee
Aug 22, 2012, 8:28:05 PM8/22/12
to
The link that Kerry provided is pretty much accurate for the startup sequence of the Sure Shot also.
However, here is the exact instruction from the Sure Shot manual:
1. Inserting a coin or pressing the replay button actuates the 'S' (start relay).
2. This relay will lock in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch.
3. The following sequence takes place through the closed switches on 'S' relay.
a. The motor starts running.
b. A motor 2C switch actuates the total play meter and the 'AX' and 'JX' relays.
c. The sequence bank is reset by a switch on motor 4B.
4. When 'AX' relay is actuated, it is locked in by the armature of 'AX' relay reset coil. Through closed switches, the score unit resets to zero through a switch on motor 1A. When all units are reset and motor 2B makes, 'AX' relay reset coil is actuated. This releases the armature on 'AX' relay and opens the switches. The reset cycle is now complete.
5. Place the ball in the outhole. When the ball closes the ball return switch, 'Q' relay is actuated through the closed switch on the 15th position of the 'Bonus Unit'. 'Q' relay locks in through normally closed switches on motor 2B and 'S' relay. When 'Q' relay actuates, the bonus is scored. The 'Bonus' unit steps up to the 15th position, opening the circuit to 'Q' relay and closes the circuit to 'O' relay. The 'O' relay continues running the motor. Motor 4C resets 'Bonus' unit and actuates the ball return coil which kicks the ball across the trough switch stepping the ball count once, indicating first ball in play. The ball is now on the runway ready to be shot onto the playfield.
Not sure I can tell you exactly what the function of the series relay is, but I will say that I worked on a KOD with score motor runon that drove me nuts, but stopped when I accidentally touched the jones plug inside the cabinet one time. When I tightened up the jones plug, the motor run on was fixed. It is rare, but can happen.
Lee
However, here is the exact instruction from the Sure Shot manual:
1. Inserting a coin or pressing the replay button actuates the 'S' (start relay).
2. This relay will lock in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch.
3. The following sequence takes place through the closed switches on 'S' relay.
a. The motor starts running.
b. A motor 2C switch actuates the total play meter and the 'AX' and 'JX' relays.
c. The sequence bank is reset by a switch on motor 4B.
4. When 'AX' relay is actuated, it is locked in by the armature of 'AX' relay reset coil. Through closed switches, the score unit resets to zero through a switch on motor 1A. When all units are reset and motor 2B makes, 'AX' relay reset coil is actuated. This releases the armature on 'AX' relay and opens the switches. The reset cycle is now complete.
5. Place the ball in the outhole. When the ball closes the ball return switch, 'Q' relay is actuated through the closed switch on the 15th position of the 'Bonus Unit'. 'Q' relay locks in through normally closed switches on motor 2B and 'S' relay. When 'Q' relay actuates, the bonus is scored. The 'Bonus' unit steps up to the 15th position, opening the circuit to 'Q' relay and closes the circuit to 'O' relay. The 'O' relay continues running the motor. Motor 4C resets 'Bonus' unit and actuates the ball return coil which kicks the ball across the trough switch stepping the ball count once, indicating first ball in play. The ball is now on the runway ready to be shot onto the playfield.
Not sure I can tell you exactly what the function of the series relay is, but I will say that I worked on a KOD with score motor runon that drove me nuts, but stopped when I accidentally touched the jones plug inside the cabinet one time. When I tightened up the jones plug, the motor run on was fixed. It is rare, but can happen.
Lee
Kerry Imming
Aug 22, 2012, 10:24:00 PM8/22/12
to
"Lee" <lee....@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:519bdab2-7f6a-4bf2...@googlegroups.com...
> Not sure I can tell you exactly what the function of the series relay
function. Not surprising, it's call a series relay because there are two
relays in series that are actuated when a playfield switch is closed. For
example, a playfield switch might trigger a bank relay to record that the
rollover was hit. At the same time, the series relay would energize to
record the points.
I believe the series relay was used to save cost. The downside to this
design is that the two relays in series must be fairly well matched in coil
resistance for both relays to operate reliably.
- Kerry
cdnpinballer
Aug 22, 2012, 10:26:13 PM8/22/12
to
Thanks everyone for the replies thus far.
It's strange because the score motor starts turning right at power
on. No pressing the credit button or inserting coins. Turn the power
on and it starts going around.
The score reels reset, and the AX relay is firing. I checked
continuity on the AX relay switches to rule out dirty or misadjusted
switches.
Could not get to the hardware store for a wire brush to clean the
jones plugs, will have to investigate that tomorrow night.
It's strange because the score motor starts turning right at power
on. No pressing the credit button or inserting coins. Turn the power
on and it starts going around.
The score reels reset, and the AX relay is firing. I checked
continuity on the AX relay switches to rule out dirty or misadjusted
switches.
Could not get to the hardware store for a wire brush to clean the
jones plugs, will have to investigate that tomorrow night.
cdnpinballer
Aug 22, 2012, 10:31:57 PM8/22/12
to
On Aug 22, 10:24 pm, "Kerry Imming" <kcimm...@pobox.com> wrote:
> "Lee" <lee.w...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Kerry, thanks for this information. Makes total sense.
> "Lee" <lee.w...@comcast.net> wrote in message
tcvideo2001
Aug 22, 2012, 11:02:34 PM8/22/12
to
While you are waiting for schematics you can run a test by unplugging
all the jones plugs and see if the score motor stops running.If it has
stopped,then plug the jones connectors in one at a time until you find
the culpret that makes the score motor run.Remember to disconnect the
hard to see playfield jones connector too.It is way at the back under
the playfield.
Todd
--
tcvideo2001
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
tcvideo2001
Aug 22, 2012, 11:08:53 PM8/22/12
to
I just went down and looked in my Sure Shot and found both the manual
and schematics.I can email you pics if you like.
Kerry Imming
Aug 23, 2012, 7:37:50 AM8/23/12
to
"cdnpinballer" <cdnpin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a9fd0b3-e4b2-4dd4...@m18g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
score motor can cause it to run. Check the sequence Lee listed very
carefully. AX has two operations, (1) latch in step 2B, (2) reset in step
4. Is it latching right when you plug it in? Or is it stuck in latch
position and not resetting (more likely)?
Unless you're very careful, continuity can be misleading on an EM. You
certainly can NOT use the continuity setting on your meter, since it usually
indicates continuity at as much as 40 ohms. An open switch may have many
coils in parallel with it and can read less then 10 ohms.
Some history on your machine would be helpful too. Was it working recently
or has it been stored for a long time?
- Kerry
cdnpinballer
Aug 23, 2012, 10:11:31 AM8/23/12
to
pics.
I will try the connector tip and see what path that leads me down.
Kerry, I guess I was hitting my head against a wall there regarding
the continuity.
This machine was a basement find and hasn't worked in over 20 years.
I would describe the condition as rough but it will be a nice players
machine when I am done with it. The game looks really fun to play.
When I give power to the game the AX relay is continually latching,
then unlatching over and over in sequence with the score motor.
I am really diving into EM's head first since I just picked up very
nice examples (but still non-working projects) of Royal Flush and
Spirit of 76. I am going to leave those until I get this sure shot
working.
Kerry Imming
Aug 23, 2012, 1:09:12 PM8/23/12
to
news:54b12873-5196-44d9...@k3g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> Kerry, I guess I was hitting my head against a wall there regarding
> the continuity.
>
> This machine was a basement find and hasn't worked in over 20 years.
> I would describe the condition as rough but it will be a nice players
> machine when I am done with it. The game looks really fun to play.
>
>When I give power to the game the AX relay is continually latching,
> then unlatching over and over in sequence with the score motor.
20 years can build up a lot of oxidation on the switches and connectors. I
always thought reseating a connector would clean it up enough to work, but I
recently saw one that did not. I would not have believed it unless I had
saw it myself.
The schematics will quickly show you the switches controlling AX and AXR
coils. AX should not latch again until another reset is started.
- Kerry
> Kerry, I guess I was hitting my head against a wall there regarding
> the continuity.
>
> This machine was a basement find and hasn't worked in over 20 years.
> I would describe the condition as rough but it will be a nice players
> machine when I am done with it. The game looks really fun to play.
>
>When I give power to the game the AX relay is continually latching,
> then unlatching over and over in sequence with the score motor.
always thought reseating a connector would clean it up enough to work, but I
recently saw one that did not. I would not have believed it unless I had
saw it myself.
The schematics will quickly show you the switches controlling AX and AXR
coils. AX should not latch again until another reset is started.
- Kerry
cdnpinballer
Aug 23, 2012, 4:30:32 PM8/23/12
to
On Aug 23, 1:09 pm, "Kerry Imming" <kcimm...@pobox.com> wrote:
> "cdnpinballer" <cdnpinbal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
The connectors seem like a logical point to try and clean and see if
anything improves. I will do that tonight and report back.
Thanks
> "cdnpinballer" <cdnpinbal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
anything improves. I will do that tonight and report back.
Thanks
cdnpinballer
Aug 23, 2012, 10:45:56 PM8/23/12
to
An update:
I unplugged the backbox and playfield connectors and the score motor
still runs non-stop.
I cleaned the coin door connector so I don't believe that to be the
problem.
Right now the score motor runs with the hold relay and start relay
continually engaging and disengaging.
I am thinking it's dirty score motor home switches but I am unsure
about what switches to focus on.
Any ideas?
I unplugged the backbox and playfield connectors and the score motor
still runs non-stop.
I cleaned the coin door connector so I don't believe that to be the
problem.
Right now the score motor runs with the hold relay and start relay
continually engaging and disengaging.
I am thinking it's dirty score motor home switches but I am unsure
about what switches to focus on.
Any ideas?
tcvideo2001
Aug 23, 2012, 11:49:59 PM8/23/12
to
Well we now know its not a score reel switch which are very
problematic.Nor is it a coin door switch which is another major
culprit.Ya,like the others are saying here,it's time to go the route of
looking at the schematics.I will scan it and email you the scans.Sounds
like it may be a score motor switch.I also have all the other machines
you named so it's very probable that I have those schematics too.I
really don't have a clue whats down there until I open a machine up.I
must be at about 70 machines down there now.I honestly lost count.
cdnpinballer
Aug 28, 2012, 9:43:29 PM8/28/12
to
Ok, finally solved this problem.
I went through the score motor switches and everything looked fine.
Then I unplugged the backbox, playfield and coin door connectors and
manually turned the score motor. It would find its home and stop so I
figured the problem was still on the coin door.
After a very close inspection I realized a switch tensioner on one of
the coin door switches was too close and shorting to the switch
causing it to be closed even when the switch contacts were apart.
So, first thing to check if you have a score motor running non-stop is
the coin door switches.
Thanks to all for their advice.
Lee
I went through the score motor switches and everything looked fine.
Then I unplugged the backbox, playfield and coin door connectors and
manually turned the score motor. It would find its home and stop so I
figured the problem was still on the coin door.
After a very close inspection I realized a switch tensioner on one of
the coin door switches was too close and shorting to the switch
causing it to be closed even when the switch contacts were apart.
So, first thing to check if you have a score motor running non-stop is
the coin door switches.
Thanks to all for their advice.
Lee
0 new messages