EM Tech: Gottlieb 4-Square

[William Brower]

Hey Guys,

I'm not one for asking for help, I can normally get through all my EM
problems but, this one has me stumped.

Thanks for any help you might have.

The is a strange problem I'm having is with my Gottlieb 4-Square. The
game plays fine once you shoot the "dead" first ball, then the game
functions as it should through all five balls.

Once you start a game the ball will shoot out in the ball lane before
the game completes it's cycle, therefor sending a "dead ball" into
play. Once you shoot the "dead ball" returning it to the hole, it'll
play fine.

I almost think this game came out of the factory like this. The
previous owner had put a switch on the coin door to close the through
switch so you would not need to shoot the "dead ball".

I posting a video on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVELFiW0Cfs&feature=em-upload_owner

Thanks, Again,

Bill

[William Brower]

Here we go again...LOL..."The is a strange"... Meant: This is a
strange problem :)

Bill

[Joe Grenuk]

The ball count stepper is off one position.

I am assuming that when a game is first started and the dead ball
kicks out, the ball count unit is advancing one position. And then
when the dead ball drains, the ball count unit advances to the next
position and the game plays fine.

If that is the case, loosen the disc on the ball count unit and move
it up one position so that when a game starts it is on the same rivets
as it is now on after the dead ball drains and kicks out.

[FredMaine]

Coincidence, because I was just having a startup problem a minute ago on
my '69 Gottlieb Airport (solved). Logged on and saw your post.

If there are points on the score reels, do they reset to zero, before
the dead ball?

Fred


--
FredMaine
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[Gott Lieb?]

I don't have schems for 4 Square, but similar era single players
should be the same. There is a NC switch on the "reset complete"
relay. Possibly called DB on your game. Make sure that this switch
is not stuck closed.

Jim

On May 21, 10:01 pm, William Brower <jerkymanbrow...@gmail.com> wrote:

[FredMaine]

Does this game have an X or X1 'player reset' relay?

[William Brower]

Joe, the ball count unit appears to be fine.

Fred, all reels will rest to "0".

This happens so fast when you start a game, almost like a timing
issue. The ball will fly out into the lane as soon as you hit the
start button.

Thanks for the help. I'm not going to work on it tonight, but I'll
check her out tomorrow.

Bill

[FredMaine]

Also, look at a flipper button on your schematic. On my Airport, the
only switches that can prevent a flipper from working: a switch on QB
game over relay, and a switch on SB start relay. Somehow, one of those
switches is open when it should be closed. At least, on Airport.

They may not -be- the problem but they must point to the problem farther
down the line somehow.

Fred

[FredMaine]

Joe may be on to something. For the reset to complete the ball count
would normally step down from 5 to 1 during the reset.

[William Brower]

Fred, Not sure of X and X1?.

Everything is dead on the playfield. But back to normal when dead ball
will return.

I went through all the switches in the circuit, maybe I missed
something.

Thanks Again,

Bill

[William Brower]

This happens before the machine cycles, once the ball hits the through
switch the ball count unit resets and functions fine.

Bill

[William Brower]

Meant: once the ball hits the switch after playing dead ball.

[FredMaine]

Bill, your mentioning that the ball kicks out right away is
interesting.

On Airport the ball return solenoid is fired by a switch on O (Ball
Return Relay) and only when a score motor switch 4C also closes.

If your machine has a Ball Return relay, is it energized right away,
kicking out the ball so soon that it goes by the ball count switch
before it's ready to advance the ball count to ball 1?

Just thinking out loud, really, while looking at a schematic for a
different game. Someone else will need to verify that what I'm saying
makes sense.

Fred

[pinhead52]

Look at the ball return relay circuit, obviously the is a sw closed
that shouldnt be...5 minutes you should narrow it down. Probably on
the gameover relay

[FredMaine]

Yeah, thinking the same thing. That O relay I mentioned is fired by a
switch on QB - the game over relay. (again, looking at Airport schem).

[Kerry Imming]

"William Brower" <jerkyma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:296c02cf-274b-43de...@j4g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

Pretty sure SCORE MOTOR switch 1B is stuck closed. It has blue+red and
red-white wires.
The only other switch in the BALL RETURN coil circuit is a N.O. switch on
the OUTHOLE (O) relay, but if that were a problem the O relay would have to
be stuck on at the start of the game.

Actually, if the O relay IS stuck on at the start of the game, check the
switch on the RESET COMPLETED (DB) relay with green-black and
orange-white-red wires. DB itself controls the score reel reset, so it must
be energizing like it should.

- Kerry

[Gott Lieb?]

Forgot to mention that this particular switch is in series with the
outhole (ball return) "O" relay. If this isn't it, make sure that the
NO switch on the O relay is not stuck closed. That switch is in
series with the ball return coil. A NO motor switch 4C is too, so if
the O switch was closed, the ball return coil will fire every time 4C
closes. This would be pretty obvious when playing the game, because
the outhole coil would fire nearly every time the motor ran.

Jim

[William Brower]

Fred, Yes it will kick out fast, the "0" will energizes before the
game complete it's cycle kicking the ball out before the through
switch is energized.

Jim, I've been through all the switches and can't get to the problem.
I did notice that some of the switches on "XB" and "DB" are soldered
together on the stacks, I'm sure they are meant to be that way, But
could be a possible solder spatter from the factory (the look to be
good though) I'll try to put a piece of cardboard in between them to
separate them from the circuit and see if that might help.

Thanks Guys!

Bill

[William Brower]

Thanks Guys, I will dig deeper into this tomorrow night. I impressed
with all of the knowledge you folks have. I'm been doing this for 30
something years and never seen this. I was afraid to ask all you smart
folks :), I should have had this one beat.

Bill

[William Brower]

Five minutes Ken?, this one has been doing this for a while now :).
I'll poke around in it from time to time and then give up :)

Kerry, I've been through all the motor switches, they seemed to be gap
correctly and working fine. I'll re-check again tomorrow.

Thanks.

Bill

[William Brower]

Also, I searched the archives and have not come across this problem
mentioned on RGP. :)

Bill

[William Brower]

This does not happen, Jim

Bill

[William Brower]

I should say: "this has been doing this since I've own it".

Bill

[Frank Furhter]

It doesn't even have to be 'one position' off. The dead ball is off a
rivet, and the 1 through 6 are on rivets. The 6 position is end of
game. They can be right on, but dirty rivet/heads, dirty shoes, springs
that don't press hard enough, a shaft that doesn't allow the moving
plate/bakelite to be close enough, and of course not enough lubrication.
As well, the rivets may be worn, or shoes are on it but not quite
right. Monkey with it, as mentioned in this response response, and you
will get it working just fine. Lastly, use Break Free available in
spray at Wally, about 2.95 a can and works wonders for a long, long time
if you clean the plate/shoes with green-bottle chrome polish by Turtle
Wax, and then hand buff (wipe basically is what this means). Good luck.

--
The Frankster, a playfield prankster
Once upon my crank her ballpark shrank.
http://PinWiki.net, Prep-H 4 pinballers.
CARGPB #42 (Its free to join, sign up now!)

[Mark]

On 5/21/2013 8:47 PM, Kerry Imming wrote:

> Pretty sure SCORE MOTOR switch 1B is stuck closed. It has blue+red
> and red-white wires. The only other switch in the BALL RETURN coil
> circuit is a N.O. switch on the OUTHOLE (O) relay, but if that were
> a problem the O relay would have to be stuck on at the start of the
> game.

I liked Kerry's answer so I went to test it on my 4 Square. I shorted
the 1B motor switch but that didn't have any effect since the NO switch
on the O relay in series with the 1B motor switch is open.

But then I realized that the NO switch on the O relay might be shorted
in Bill's game. I shorted that instead in my game and got the behavior
Bill described. The ball kicks out before the score resets (when the 1B
motor switch closes) and once the score is done resetting, nothing else
happens until the ball drains and advances the ball count unit to 1.

So Bill, check the NO switch on the O relay (blue-red to brown-red) to
see if it's stuck closed.

/Mark

[William Brower]

You know guys, I had to go down in the basement to check this out
again (I should be in bed). I checked all the switches on the "0"
relay, they are good and gapped ok. I checked the switches on 1b, 4c.
ok there too.
I can't start this baby, wifey gets up at 4am.The ball count unit is
working good also. I'll look deeper into the xb, and db relays again
tomorrow. Thanks, again
Bill

[Kerry Imming]

"Mark" <mm...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:knhebk$poc$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> I liked Kerry's answer so I went to test it on my 4 Square. I shorted the
> 1B motor switch but that didn't have any effect since the NO switch on the
> O relay in series with the 1B motor switch is open.
>

Mark, if you're willing to try another experiment, try shorting the RESET
RELAY (DB) switch, green-black and orange-white-red wires. You need to have
a ball in the outhole when you hit start. That should immediately kick out
a ball.

- Kerry

[DirtFlipper]

I encountered a behavior like this on a Volley once (I think it was a Volley anyway). It turned out to be the tab ends touching on the score motor switches (I think it was the 1C switch, that is in line to the O relay switch).

The clue that tipped me off finally was noticing that when the ball was in the outhole, if I coined up the game to add credits (but not start a game), the ball would kick out. That made me realize that whenever the ball was in the outhole and score motor ran, the ball return would fire. All the switches looked gapped and normal, but I hadn't spotted the backside tabs touching, since they were kinda buried in the score motor wiring harness.

If a game is set on free play and to not add credits, probably wouldn't notice this other side effect.

Once I realized that the ball would kick out even when coining up, I paid more attention to the O relay behavior when the score motor ran. I noticed that the O relay would engage while the score motor ran, but it didn't look like it was ever 'pulsing' open. With score motor switches in the path to it, one or more should eventually pulse open and disengage the relay. That's when I took a much more careful look at the switches (using a bright shop light, and different angles), and spotted the tabs just touching.

Don't know if that's exactly what's causing the issue on your 4 Square, but thought I'd mention it.

[Mark]

Ok, so I shorted the switch (GR-BLK OR-WH-RED) on the DB relay that
should fire the Outhole (O) relay but I couldn't get my 4 Square to
serve up a dead ball. The ball may have come out a little before normal
(hard to tell) but the ball count unit stepped to 1 and the game was
ready to go.

I think that even a shorted switch on the DB relay won't fire the O
relay early enough to serve up a dead ball because of the other switch
in series with it on the XB relay.

I'm thinking along the same lines as DirtFlipper though. Even though the
switch on the O relay looks like it's working right, I'd ohm it out with
a meter to be sure. With the power off, put your meter between the
BR-RED wire on the ball return coil and the RED-WH fused wire from the
transformer. Then close the motor 1B and O relay switches one at a time
to see if either closes the circuit by itself. You shouldn't see
continuity until both are closed.

A bent switch tab, or a solder blob might be the simplest explanation.
There are only two switches on the ball return kicker. Having one of
them goofed up would make sense.

BTW, Kerry's experiment was a mind bender. I'm usually hovering over a
game wondering why something won't work. I've never tried to figure out
why something still works after I've tried to break it before...

/Mark

[William Brower]

Wow, thanks Mark. I'm very thankful for you trying this for me. Just
don't screw up your machine though. I just got home from work, I plan
on working on it later tonight. And thanks to all for the ideas, you
guys are great. I still think this left the factory ike this :). Bill

[William Brower]

"Pretty sure SCORE MOTOR switch 1B is stuck closed. It has blue+red and

red-white wires."-Kerry

Kerry, 1B has Blu+Red on one pole, and Red+Wht on the other pole...but
also on the Red+White pole there is a Wht+Grn+Red on that same
pole...but wait :)
Also the Wht+Wht pole blade is also soldered the upper stack 1C also.

This looks to be factory, I have uploaded a pic, hard to see.

Marc, could you do me another favor? Can you tell me what wires you have
on 1B and 1C ? Thanks.

Also I checked all the switches on the XB and DB relays, all seemed to
be OK. I do notice some more blades soldered together like whats on
1B/1C, these appear to be factory also.

Thanks,

Bill

Filename:-----------> 4-Square 1B.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2067


--
William Brower

[William Brower]

Being an electrician (33 years this spring but, who's counting) I've
always had a fix in the back of my mind, but this requires a mod,
which I really don't want to do :).

I could put in a cube time delay relay that would delay the pulse to
the kick-out hole :)...at this rate I might do this :).

My late brother Ed was a pin tech for many years, he too said this was
a factory f-up. It was like the person who wired this had some fun on
has last day at the factory.

Thanks Again,

Bill

[William Brower]

More corrections: "Also the Wht+Wht pole blade is also soldered the
upper stack 1C also. Meant: "Red+Wht"

Second post correction: " has last day at the factory" Meant "his"

Bill

[Joe Grenuk]

You've already got one hack in there from the former owner; you don't
need another one. :)

Just fix the ball count unit, please!

Ask one of these guys for a pic of the wiper disc after reset from
their 4 Square and compare it to yours.

[William Brower]

The ball count unit fine, Joe :). If I were to adjust it like you say,
In this case it would start on ball 2.

Bill

[William Brower]

First thing I did when I got this game was disconnecting of the switch
and wires someone had installed on the through switch. Easy fix for
the person that owned it before me.

My first thought when I got this game was the ball count unit too.
I've played around with it and it is working good.

Another note, if this helps. All score reels all reset to zero, like
they should when starting a game but, if I run all balls 1-5 by hand,
scoring zero points, having all zeros on the reels, upon starting the
the next game, it will function normally.

Thanks,

Bill



Bill

[DirtFlipper]

With the ball in the outhole, but before starting a game, what happens if you trip the extra credit relay? (usually the W relay). Does the score motor run, and the O relay activate? Does it kick a ball out?

[DirtFlipper]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 10:13:11 PM UTC-5, William Brower wrote:

Another experiment question for clues: With the playfield raised (ball out of course), if you hold the ball return switch closed (or jumper it) and start a game, the score motor should run continuously and the ball return should keep kicking, trying to get the ball out.

While it's cycling like this, observe the ball return relay (O relay). Does it pulse open (disengage) and then reactivate? Or does it stay constantly closed?

[William Brower]

Thanks for the ideas, Dirt Flipper, I'll give them a try tomorrow. I'm
pretty sure if I close the switch for the ball switch it will cycle
and pulse, opening and closing the "0" relay. All contacts on the "0"
relay are gapped good and making and breaking like they should. But
the "0" relay is pulsing as soon as the credit button is pushed ,
shooting the ball in the lane before the game completes it's cycle.
Bill

[DirtFlipper]

yeah, I don't think the problem is with the O relay itself, but it's behavior helps point to which path to go down.

In order to kick the ball out before the game starts, the O relay has to engage. The question then is, why is it engaging? All the switches in the path to it have to close (including the ball return switch). I don't have a 4 Square schematic, but it's going to be typically the ball return switch, motor switches 1C, 2B, and a switch on DB. I'm sure they all look like they work at the contact point end of the switches. And they're all normally closed *except* for the ball return switch, so when the ball drains, that's the event that activates O, runs the score motor and kicks out the ball.

I'd guess that if you start a game with the ball out of the outhole, the game resets fine, doesn't try kicking out a ball early, and at that point if you place the ball in the outhole it will kick out and advance to ball 1 correctly. This would be due to the ball return switch being open and missing the score motor cycle during the reset (similar to the behavior you see when no points are scored).

So seeing how soon the O relay engages, and whether it stays on or pulses off, helps know how that path to activate it is involved.

[William Brower]

Thank you so much for your time, Dirt Flipper, I'm amazed at all the
help I'm getting with this problem.

Mark just sent me a pic. of 1B and it looks like my switch has an exta
wire on it, i'll check it out tomorrow, I need to get some zzz's :)

Thank-You all for the time and help you guys give here at RGP. Bill

[Gott Lieb?]

One thing to keep in mind is that the switch on DB in this circuit is
NC. However, it will be open during the reset sequence, until the DB
relay is satisfied that everything is reset.

Jim

On May 23, 12:28 am, DirtFlipper <dirtflip...@gmail.com> wrote:

[William Brower]

Hey Guys,

I've not found much time to work on this game today but, I did take some
more pictures of the motor stack switches, I've uploaded them to see
what you guys think. I'm hoping to find some time to do some more
testing on this game this weekend, Thanks.

Mark was nice enough to take a picture of the motor stack switches,
focusing on 1B. After looking at my switches compared to mark's, I
noticed that they are different. I've uploaded Marks and a new picture
of my switches also.

Notice how mark's 1B has the Blu+Red on one pole and Red+Wht on the
other switch. On my switch it's the same other then I have a Wht+Red+Grn
on the Red+Wht pole.

It also looks like Mark has an added stack on the "D" making two
switches where mine only has on switch on the "D" stack. It also looks
as if Mark's switch has that Wht+Red+Grn going to that upper "D" switch
which I don't have on mine.

Also on the printed switch stack schedule mounted on the inside right
hand side of the cabinet, it only shows 1 switch for the "D"
stack...Very strange.

Mark if you could take one more shot showing the extra switch and the
wires that are on it, it would be very much appreciated, thanks.

Thanks for everyone's help :)

Bill

Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B (Mark).jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2068

Filename:-----------> Motor Switch 1B (Bill).jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2069

[William Brower]

"mine only has on switch on the "D" stack." Meant: mine only has one

switch on the "D" stack.

I also meant that the motor schematic/schedule is mounted on the left
hand side of the cabinet. I'm definitely the worst with spelling and
typing on this group, sorry :)

I'm still thinking this baby left the factory like this :). This is
one of my favorite out of my 7 wedgeheads in my collection. It plays
great once you launch that dead ball. It also has only 50,000 plays
and looks to be in really good shape.

Have a nice night,

Bill

[Frank Furhter]

May I highly recommend folks move to HD video from this point onward,
with 120 FPS and proper lighting. GoPro 3s black editions are about 300
bucks on discount (or so) and just put it on hour head and film. Get
good lights and folks will be able to slow down your video and watch it,
along with your commentary. Group share/commenting tools are also
available on the web, so folks can layer commentary and ideas on to a
base video and move to a resolution.

This will be the future of 'debugging' remote, at least until something
HD interactive (4g or even 5g) smart phone comes along in a few years
time for pennies an hour. Its coming, but the aforementioned will do
until such time.

[William Brower]

Hey Frank, it is what is is. It's a cheapo 720p hd flip camera, it's
all I got, sorry.

Go back to fucking with someone else, you are barking up the wrong
tree...don't get me started.

Bill

[Glen Peters]

C'mon Bill, ya GOTTA fix this thing... I'm dyin' to know what
it was... and the suspense is killing me!! Cool how you are
getting such great support though.... sans Fuck Face.

[William Brower]

All I know now is that Mark's "D" stack on his motor has an extra
switch. And the wiring is also different on 1b. He sent me some more
pictures...Thanks Mark.

I'm hoping to spend some more time on it tomorrow. Looks like I'll be
doing some rewiring and adding another switch to the "D" stack. This
might take a while :)

S.N. is towards the end of production at #06400, so there must be more
wired like this. Mark's might be an early production run.

Thanks for all the help.

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

In the lower left of the schematic there's a table that lists the number of type of switches for each score motor position. How does that compare to what you have?

If the score motor switches were ever removed from the score motor (perhaps as part of a repair, or cleaning), then it is possible something got mixed up. The taller stacks are often split to either side of the mounting flange, or just want to separate a bit on their own; it's not too hard to get a portion of one stack mixed in with another when reassembling it.

That's where the table on the schematic should be able to indicate just what ought to be on the score motor 1 position (at A through E).

But yeah, given that something basic like the swithes don't match, that certainly needs to be sorted out first.

[Frank Furhter]

Simple solution, electrical tape the stack together until you work on
it. Removing all the stacks off a motor does cause problems for the
noob and olds alike if you have not done one recently and/or have no
fucking clue after a few days/weeks/months of heavy party and mid
project distractions.

[William Brower]

Thanks, Dirt Flipper. It looks like the two stacks screws were put in
backwards but, that should not matter. Funny thing is that the motor
schematic only shows one switch on the "D" stack. I e-mailed Mark
very late, I'm hoping he can tell me what that second stack switch on
"D" does. Bill

[William Brower]

Good idea Frank, electric tape would keep them together. I don't like
to keep things apart for very long. Bill

[William Brower]

Yeah there is a joke in ther somwhere, Frank... "like my wife's legs,
they don't call me the minute man for nothing"

[William Brower]

On May 25, 8:55 am, DirtFlipper <dirtflip...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried flipping the switch stack on "D" to the other side of the
mounting flange to see if that would help the timing. The dog-leg
switch will not hit any pins on the motor reel. I've noticed on Mark's
the switch that I have on "D" is on the left side of the mounting
flange, mine is on the right. I also noticed that Mark has a pair of
Yel+Blk wires on that second "D'" stack, I don't even have a Yel+Blk
wire at any of switches coming up to the motor.

If any one has a 4-Square with the second switch on "D" on the score
motor, please tell me what it is controlling. Or if you only have one
"D" switch, it would be nice to know how that is wired that
too...Thank-You.

Bill

[Mark]

On 5/25/2013 8:11 AM, William Brower wrote:

> Thanks, Dirt Flipper. It looks like the two stacks screws were put in
> backwards but, that should not matter. Funny thing is that the motor
> schematic only shows one switch on the "D" stack. I e-mailed Mark
> very late, I'm hoping he can tell me what that second stack switch on
> "D" does. Bill
>

The plot thickens...

The motor chart in my 4 Square only shows one switch in position 1D:

B-relay score control

So now I have to wonder, what does the extra switch do between the
Yellow/Black and Grey/Red wires in position 1D?

/Mark

[William Brower]

Sorry about that extra "that" on the end. I can't type or spell worth
a shit.

I'm also pretty embarrassed to post a "Em Tech" post, I've only been
working on EM's since the 70's...I should have had this problem licked
but, I'm very thankful for the help of you very knowledgeable folks
here at RGP, you guys (+ 1 girl) are great.

thanks,

Bill

[William Brower]

LOL, that time delay relay is looking better everyday.

Thanks,

Bill

[William Brower]

I uploaded Mark's recent pictures he has e-mailed me, of his motor 1
stack switches.

Thanks Mark.

Bill

Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 2.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2071

Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 3.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2072

Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 4.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2073

[DirtFlipper]

Seems weird, but apparently need to see a third (or fourth) 4 Square game (ideally a working one) for a tie breaker. Are either of these games sample games (i.e., serial number with an S on the end)?

Hard to go against what the schematic says though.

[William Brower]

I don't think so, mine is a late run production number @ #06400. Mark
sent me this link: http://www.ipsnd.net/View.aspx?id=940 Maybe some
other owners of this game will chime in.

Thanks,

Bill

[Frank Furhter]

William Brower wrote:
>
> I uploaded Mark's recent pictures he has e-mailed me, of his motor 1
> stack switches.
>
> Thanks Mark.
>
> Bill
>
> Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 2.jpg
> Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2071
>
> Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 3.jpg
> Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2072
>
> Filename:-----------> Motor_switch_1B 4.jpg
> Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2073
>
>

Now that is cool! Its great folks share info visual, audio, and/or
written. Perfect stuff! Way to go Bill

[William Brower]

Even if I don't get this game working the way it was meant leaving the
factory, all this crap will be nice for the next guy to see, searching
through the archives.

Bill

[Mark]

On 5/25/2013 11:01 AM, William Brower wrote:
>
> I uploaded Mark's recent pictures he has e-mailed me, of his motor 1
> stack switches.
>
> Thanks Mark.
>

The suspense was killing me so I did a little wire chasing. I think the
extra switch on motor 1D is a boondoggle. (Which BTW is my favorite
term for going out to see another game I found in an ad somewhere.)

The extra switch in my photos with the Yel-Blk wire goes _between_ the
switches on motor 1A and motor 2C in the 3rd chute adjustment circuit,
and is not shown on my schematic. The Yel-Blk wire goes to the "3 games
per coin" jack in front of the score motor, not the Or-Wh wire as shown
on the schematic.

So while that may be a fine mystery to ponder (were there different
credit wiring schemes for different markets?) I don't think it has
anything to do with the ball return coil.

So Bill, maybe you can trace out your ball return circuit to check that
it matches the schematic, since your motor switch stacks might be
different than mine. Can you trace from the ball return coil (Br-Red
wire), through the O switch (Bl-Red wire), through the motor 1B switch
to the Red-Wh wire? Or are there other differences?

And one other thing that occurs to me since I have my game torn apart
for photos, is there any chance that there's a short on the jones plugs
between the bottom board and the playfield? It's a long shot, but the
Br-Red wire to the ball return coil does have to go through those jones
plugs. Maybe you'll be lucky and find a bent tab or solder blob there.

/Mark

[DirtFlipper]

Yes, Gottlieb provided a schematic 'supplement' that showed additional wiring for coin cute/credit stuff for games that used different coin mech setup (e.g. different countries, extra chutes). It's on a smaller piece of paper than a regular schematic. That might explain it.

[William Brower]

Thanks Mark,

I have to step out for a bit, I'll try those things when I return.

Bill

[Frank Furhter]

EXACTLY!

[Grojohn]

You suck!

[Frank Furhter]

Some might speculate.

[William Brower]

On May 25, 2:39 pm, Mark <mm...@cornell.edu> wrote:

Hi, Me again :)

I was able to spend a little more 4-square time, just me in my baby
all alone in the depths of my basement this morning. My other baby has
a very long list of honey doos for me to do today, so I won't have
much time to do anymore work on her until later.

I checked all the "O" switches, motor switches, DB, XB, ball count and
jones plugs...all seem to be good.

While I was banging my head on the inside of the cabinet I discovered
something that is not right. I'm getting continuity on a N/O set of
contacts on the ball unit (Rd+Wht+Grn - Wht+Rd) whether they are
making or breaking I'm still getting continuity. While keeping the
tester leads on this N/O switch I spun the motor and got no change,
still had continuity on that switch. Checked all motor switches all
look good, fish paper appears to be good too. So I'm getting
resistance/short somewhere in the circuit.

This still brings me back to that extra wire I have on 1b (Wht+Rd+Grn)
that is soldered on the pole with the Rd+Wt, this wire jumps to
multiple switches on the "1's Stack" of switches. Mark does not have
this wire on his 1b switch. I'm still confused but, I think I'm
getting closer.

Thanks,

Bill

[William Brower]

" just me in my baby " meant: me and my baby...the coin slot is not
big enough :)

[William Brower]

Somewhere, somebody is testing me...and I'm failing :(.

After some more testing tonight, I'm still failing at what I do
best...what gives?.

Should I cop-out and install a time delay relay? This would fix this
issues, nobody will see it :(

Should I try to pass the test?..is this a test?... is somebody testing
me?.

Life is a big test, sometimes we pass and sometimes we fail...I shall
not fail :)

Have a nice night,

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

Did you ever get a chance to try this:

Another experiment question for clues: With the playfield raised (ball out of course), if you hold the ball return switch closed (or jumper it) and start a game, the score motor should run continuously and the ball return should keep kicking, trying to get the ball out.

While it's cycling like this, observe the ball return relay (O relay). Does it pulse open (disengage) and then reactivate? Or does it stay constantly closed?

Or this:

With the ball in the outhole, but before starting a game, what happens if you trip the extra credit relay? (usually the W relay). Does the score motor run, and the O relay activate? Does it kick a ball out?


(sorry in advance if you posted what the results were, and I missed it.)

[William Brower]

"if you hold the ball return switch closed (or jumper it) and start a
game, the score motor should run continuously and the ball return
should keep kicking, trying to get the ball out. "

Yes this is correct, it does just that.

"With the ball in the outhole, but before starting a game, what
happens if you trip the extra credit relay? (usually the W relay).
Does the score motor run, and the O relay activate? Does it kick a
ball out? "

Dirt Flipper, I'm not seeing the "extra credit relay? (usually the W
relay)" on my schematic or in the game. My "W" relay is the 3rd Chute
Relay, is that what you mean?

Thanks for the reply Dirt Flipper :)

Bill

[William Brower]

By hitting my "W" relay it just gives credits and no reset, or no ball
kick out, while hold the ball hole switch closed.

Bill

[William Brower]

I think I see where you are going with this.

Take it off of coin play and have it just reset like with one coin,
and maybe then set it for free play?

Bill

[William Brower]

By doing this, I still think I'll have the same problem. I can try
(can't hurt). I don't think this will effect the timing though.

I'm not pulling this baby out of the row tonight (too much shit under
my machines).

I don't want this stupid thread to get to 100. I'll post pictures of
the time delay relay before then :)

Bill

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

Yes, 3rd Chute Relay (still W), sorry.

But no, that's not where I was going with this.

With the outhole switch closed, and you run the score motor (via the W relay, just for something to make it run), the ball doesn't kick out. That's good (and correct). That indicates there's more in the path to the O relay that's needing to be closed than just the ball return switch.

But - for the first experiment, the critical observation was this:

"While it's cycling like this, observe the ball return relay (O relay). Does it pulse open (disengage) and then reactivate? Or does it stay constantly closed?"

(when you did this:

> > "if you hold the ball return switch closed (or jumper it) and start a
> > game, the score motor should run continuously and the ball return
> > should keep kicking, trying to get the ball out. "
>

> > Yes this is correct, it does just that. )

Since the issue being chased is the ball kicking out *before* the game is really started, that suggests that the O relay is firing too soon (and thus the ball return). So the question is, does the O relay activate and stay activated, even though the score motor is turning (and opening switches in line to it). When the motor does its "da-da-da-da-da- Ka Chunk, da-da-da-da-da Ka Chunk" etc, the O relay should open briefly and then re-engage (as long as the ball return switch is closed).

If it does not, then that indicates there's a stuck closed path to O.

If it does, then that indicates that O is engaging too early (but not why).

[William Brower]

I have an extra da-da-ka clunk I think, or is clunk, clunk clank da-da-
da...LOL

I just tried this and the "0" relay pluses while the motor is
spinning.

Thanks,

Bill

[William Brower]

Pulses ?

And I like the sound effects, Dirt Flipper, your ears are right on :)
I guess being around these things a long time you kinda get a "ear"
for it. I should have know this, my bad :)

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

Does it only pulse once every third turn? (i.e. stay mostly engaged, then just briefly disengage, then engage again).

Assuming it does, when you have the ball in the outhole, how are you starting a game? Are there credits on the credit unit and starting via the start button, or are you starting by putting in a coin (so that it starts immediately with the coin)?

Does it shoot out the extra first ball either way?

[William Brower]

It's fixed, you did it, dirt flipper!. By noticing the sound you wrote
I recreated them by adjusting a few switches, I had an extra da-da-
clack in there...Now I'm just being silly, sorry Dirt Flipper, I do
appreciate all the help, thanks :)

Bill

[William Brower]

"Does it only pulse once every third turn? (i.e. stay mostly engaged,
then just briefly disengage, then engage again)."

Yep.

"Are there credits on the credit unit and starting via the start
button, or are you starting by putting in a coin (so that it starts
immediately with the coin)? "

Credits are coined up, not set for free play.. I have it set up for 2
plays for a quarter one play for a dime, It does start a game on a
dime, and reset everything but, I have the same problem.

Bill

[William Brower]

On May 26, 11:30 pm, DirtFlipper <dirtflip...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, missed this one...I'm checking now.

Bill

[William Brower]

"With the outhole switch closed, and you run the score motor (via the
W relay, just for something to make it run), the ball doesn't kick
out. That's good (and correct). That indicates there's more in the
path to the O relay that's needing to be closed than just the ball
return switch."

It will kick out.

Another note and correction to add. After some more testing tonight, I
continued the continuity test from earlier and I do lose continuity on
the ball count switch when "DB closes.

Bill

[William Brower]

"It will kick out. " only when the game is started, It does not do
this unless game is started.

Thanks,

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

Wait, so just to confirm, you're saying that with the ball return switch closed, and the W relay activated (to run the score motor), the ball does kick out?

If so, then that would match the (incorrect) behavior, but also confirm that the path to the O relay is engaging right away.

The W relay should just add credits (and run the score motor), but not start a game (and not kick the ball out, of course).

When I had this issue occur, it was due to two tabs touching at the backside of a switch pair.

[DirtFlipper]

Ah, OK. Never mind the other post then.

In that case, I would think DB is also then firing early, to allow O to fire early. Are you able to visually confirm that? (e.g., is DB engaged before the score reels complete resetting).

[William Brower]

"Wait, so just to confirm, you're saying that with the ball return
switch closed, and the W relay activated (to run the score motor), the
ball does kick out?

If so, then that would match the (incorrect) behavior, but also
confirm that the path to the O relay is engaging right away.

The W relay should just add credits (and run the score motor), but not
start a game (and not kick the ball out, of course).

When I had this issue occur, it was due to two tabs touching at the
backside of a switch pair. "

My bad sorry, the "W" relay only puts up credits, never does the
outhole kick out the ball when engaging the "W" relay.

Bill

[William Brower]

I'm hoping it's something simple and not some factory mistake. It's a
timing issue (there must be something not gaped right, or some crazy
wire job.)

My unwanted fix is: just take the wires off of "0", the ones that feed
the outhole and delay them. Have those wires kick in a time delay
relay with N/O contacts and then backfeeding the contacts on "O".

If I did this I'll be good to go :)

Bill

[DirtFlipper]

If you take a piece of business card and block the switch on the DB relay that feeds the O relay (which per a previous post is the GR-BLK OR-WH-RED pair), it should prevent a ball from kicking out at all, early or otherwise.

If it does, then still need to check when DB is engaging relative to the reset sequence (it could be early).

If it doesn't, then there's a short.

But need to confirm that the switch on DB does actually control/contribute to the ball kickout.

[William Brower]

Did I say "DB" just checked again, my bad meant: "XB" game over). this
will lose continuity on those contacts on the ball count.

Bill

[William Brower]

I also need to check all the "1" motor switches as per Marks or
another machine since mine is different. If someone could send/upload
me a picture of their 1 stack (please no porn).

Bill

[Gott Lieb?]

This thread has become too deep for me to check, but have you checked
the solder tabs on the DB switch stacks?

Also, can you post some pics of the schems? Just need to see the
"ball return coil" and "O relay" circuits.

Finally, does your game have a motor switch card inside the cab?
Compare it to the motor switches you are seeing that are not jiving
with the other game you are comparing. The manual (if there is one)
may or may not list the motor switches too (IIRC, early manuals did
not have motor switch listings).

Jim

On May 27, 1:15 am, William Brower <jerkymanbrow...@gmail.com> wrote:

[William Brower]

"This thread has become too deep for me to check, but have you checked
the solder tabs on the DB switch stacks?

Also, can you post some pics of the schems? Just need to see the
"ball return coil" and "O relay" circuits.

Finally, does your game have a motor switch card inside the cab?
Compare it to the motor switches you are seeing that are not jiving
with the other game you are comparing. The manual (if there is one)
may or may not list the motor switches too (IIRC, early manuals did
not have motor switch listings). Jim"

Thanks for the replay, Jim.

It's getting a little too deep for me too, sorry for my rambling.

Here are some more pictures, motor schematic, schematic shot of problem
area, and an other shot of that extra wire on 1b.

Sorry I don't have the manual for this game.

Thanks All!

Bill

Filename:-----------> 4-square schematic.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2079

Filename:-----------> motor schematic 1.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2080

Filename:-----------> motor schematic 2.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2081

Filename:-----------> IMG_2013.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2082


--
William Brower
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com

[William Brower]

Sorry, uploaded wrong picture of 1 b.

Here is the picture I meant to be uploaded.

Bill

Filename:-----------> 1b extra wire.jpg
Link to attached PIC: http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2083

[William Brower]

"Thanks for the replay, Jim. " meant: "Reply"...I really need to give
this stuff up. :) this is why my thread is so long. I need to spend
more time proof reading my ramblings (not hen peck real fast and then
hit send).

Bill

[Gott Lieb?]

I haven't looked at everything else yet, but that motor switch looks
like it's at 1C. And, that would be the motor runout switch, except
it does not look like the other side is connected. So, it looks like
it's only be used as a solder point.

Please elaborate if something else is going on here.

Jim

[Gott Lieb?]

Does "O" pull in, when the ball kicks over from the outhole to the
shooter lane before ball 1?

Jim

[William Brower]

There is a jumper between 1B and 1C, It's shows that on Mark's picture
too. He also dose not have that that extra wire (white with green and
red tracers) either. This wire jumps across a few switches on the 1
stack.
Mark also has an extra switch at the "4" stack of his motor, found out
it's for a different credit unit.

Still checking, thanks

Bill

[William Brower]

Yes Jim, therefor sending a dead ball into the playfield before the
machine fully resets, after dead ball returns to the hole, shoots it
over then Ball 1 live playfield and games plays fine through 5 balls,
like it should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVELFiW0Cfs&feature=em-upload_owner

Bill