Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops getting power.....
huh?
I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps blowing!??!
oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > getting power.....
> huh?
> I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put > the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. > I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and > deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
> Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs > working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps > blowing!??!
> oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. > Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
oh..I guess I forgot to explain that. It's the place where the leads run to connections that the bulb holder makes. They look like ( ) around the hole. so you jam the bulb holder in there and twist it, and the ( ) is the metal that the holder makes the connections to. ya know?
> Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > > Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> > On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> > if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> > For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > > getting power.....
> > huh?
> > I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put > > the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. > > I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and > > deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
> > Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs > > working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps > > blowing!??!
> > oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. > > Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but....Did you check to make sure the little metal contacts were actually contacting the circuit pad / conductor, mounting pad thingy? You can lightly bend the tabs 'down' as in closer to the contact pads to make contact.
Also, sometimes a flat or worn spot can be on those conductor pads. Does wiggiling the socket help?
Are you measuring voltage off of the green board? Off of the connector? I've had to reflow solder to a pin that 'looked' OK and had voltage on the board.
Swap the bulb holder / bulb to another location. Does the problem follow? If so, then bad socket or one that needs to be bent, if not someting else like a worn spot or solder issue.
Again, obvious stuff, but it's the stuff that has got me in the past.
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > getting power.....
> huh?
> I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put > the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. > I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and > deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
> Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs > working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps > blowing!??!
> oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. > Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
I believe he's refering to the solder/pcb pads that the lamp socket connector comes into contact with when you insert and turn/lock in the lamp socket on the pcb.
> Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: >> Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder >> thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
>> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to >> 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
>> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that >> you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
>> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops >> getting power.....
>> huh?
>> I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put >> the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. >> I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and >> deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
>> Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs >> working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps >> blowing!??!
>> oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. >> Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
906's ( or 912's ) are flashers - check in flasher test. They aren't anything to do with GI.
You are smart enough, I do believe you are over thinking things a bit. Bulb good, socket good, header pins on that green board soldered on good, diode for that bulb good ?
Remove the board from the game, take your meter and check continuity from the header pins to each side of the bulb. Odds are you have a break somewhere. LTG :)
"Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com" <mathewtda...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > getting power.....
> huh?
> I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put > the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. > I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and > deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
> Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs > working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps > blowing!??!
> oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. > Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
> Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > getting power.....
> huh?
> I put the bulb & holder into place and when it doesn't light up I put > the DMM on DCV again and test, and now there's no voltage going to it. > I've worked my way down from difficult problems on this machine and > deceided to start with something simple ...light bulbs.
> Jeebus...if I'm not smart enough to get some freakin light bulbs > working....how am I ever gonna figure out why my stupid F7 fuse keeps > blowing!??!
> oh..and also, there are a bunch of 906's that don't light up at all. > Anyone know on a BK2K if those are flashers or GI?
Kind of having a rough time translating what you mean, but here goes...
First off, 906's are ALWAYS flashers in EVERY game. There, that's the easy one. :)
It *sounds* like you're looking at a board with three 555 bulbs that are mounted in twist sockets. If so, then the circuit really isn't that complicated on the board end. I'm suspecting that you have a bad solder joint on the board that is exacerbated when you push on the board to install the twist socket.
SOOoooo, I'd start by checking the diode in question, then re-flowing (actually sucking the old solder out and putting in new stuff) all the solder joints for that bulb. I'd also lightly re-tin the pads that the 555 socket touches since I was there.
If *that* doesn't do it, I'd start looking at the IDC connector for that board. (happens, just less frequently.)
-- Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the web or on DVD?
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > Okay on my BK2K there's a green board that holds the light bulb holder > thing. all but one of my bulbs are working fine.
> On this bulb I take the holder out and in diode mode my DMM drops to > 0-ish, you know..telling me that the filament is good.
> if I put my DMM on DCV I get the same voltage on the ( ) thing that > you put the holder in as I get on all the other ones.
> For some reason, as soon as I put that bulb in the ( ) it stops > getting power.....
> huh?
Greetings, I believe what you are seeing here is the leakage voltage when the lamp is out of the circuit. DMM's require tiny amounts of current to provide a reading, so an extremely high resistance leakage reading would show up with no load, but when you place a load ( the bulb) in to the circuit, the high impedance leakage voltage is essentially gone. It's like putting a 1 megohm resistor in series with a 100 ohm resistor and connecting a battery. With the 100 ohm resistor disconnected you will see the battery voltage, but connect the 100 ohm resistor and all the voltage is dropped accross the 1 meg resistor. This leakage voltage is present all over the switch matrix, the only time the lamp actually light is when there is a low resistance path from B+ through that lamp to ground, which is controlled by the cpu and is a multiplexed or duty cycled process. The fact that it is not a single voltage source with a single load complicates what you are seeing.
Well, I took everyone's (I think everyone's) suggestions. I removed the entire board. it was filthy. I took out all all the bulb holders and made them all pinch a little tighter by bending in the metal tabs. I cleaned off the whole board. I noticed there was another lamp in the middle of the board that wasn't working. It had a loose pin where the wiring harness plugged in, so I reflowed some new solder over ALL of the pins. Then verified everything from the pin to the bulb. Everything tested fine. When I put it all back in the machine it all came up. So..not sure exactly what the problem was, but just gave it some TLC and spent a little bit of time on it (maybe half hour or so..) and it paid off.
So now I'm ready to get my confidence shattered again. Gotta try to decide if I should take on this stupid F7 blowing or my top row of score displays displaying ...for example...a 3 like this:
_ _ _ | _ _|
if that makes sense. so..the right part of the middle is missing all the way across the board.
any ideas? I need to start researching that. Marvin3m says it might one of those bios chips on the display board, but..the test (the way I read it) says to put one lead on the ground and touch all the pins, if any of the pins test different, it's a bad chip. All my pins test different on all my chips..so I'm doing something wrong...DOH!
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > So now I'm ready to get my confidence shattered again. Gotta try to > decide if I should take on this stupid F7 blowing or my top row of > score displays displaying ...for example...a 3 like this:
> _ _ > _ | > _ _|
> if that makes sense. so..the right part of the middle is missing all > the way across the board.
> any ideas? I need to start researching that. Marvin3m says it might > one of those bios chips on the display board, but..the test (the way I > read it) says to put one lead on the ground and touch all the pins, if > any of the pins test different, it's a bad chip. All my pins test > different on all my chips..so I'm doing something wrong...DOH!
It's common on system 11 boards to have a broken trace causing this - buzz out all the traces from the display 6821 PIA to the connector for the display segments, they all go under the battery holder, a prime corrosion zone if the board has ever had corrosion. Your chips are probably ok on the display board itself.
If I recall correctly, both lines on BK2K are alphanumeric. This would mean that the CPU controls each segment directly (the data is not sent in BCD form to the display board like in the numeric displays of older Sys 11). The segment that is out is known as segment 'j'. http://www.robotroom.com/AlphanumericDisplaySchematic.gif
You will need a logic probe, scope, or LED indicator (with a series resistor). Probe on the display board pin J12 pin 12. That is the 'j; segment input. Also probe a good segment, say J12 pin 11 (segment 'h'). If they look the same, the problem is on the display board. If they look different, the problem is in the cable (break) or CPU board.
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > Well, I took everyone's (I think everyone's) suggestions. I removed > the entire board. it was filthy. I took out all all the bulb holders > and made them all pinch a little tighter by bending in the metal tabs. > I cleaned off the whole board. I noticed there was another lamp in the > middle of the board that wasn't working. It had a loose pin where the > wiring harness plugged in, so I reflowed some new solder over ALL of > the pins. Then verified everything from the pin to the bulb. > Everything tested fine. When I put it all back in the machine it all > came up. So..not sure exactly what the problem was, but just gave it > some TLC and spent a little bit of time on it (maybe half hour or so..) > and it paid off.
> So now I'm ready to get my confidence shattered again. Gotta try to > decide if I should take on this stupid F7 blowing or my top row of > score displays displaying ...for example...a 3 like this:
> _ _ > _ | > _ _|
> if that makes sense. so..the right part of the middle is missing all > the way across the board.
> any ideas? I need to start researching that. Marvin3m says it might > one of those bios chips on the display board, but..the test (the way I > read it) says to put one lead on the ground and touch all the pins, if > any of the pins test different, it's a bad chip. All my pins test > different on all my chips..so I'm doing something wrong...DOH!
No doubt someone will suggest an LED with a series resistor, but this will be a low duty cycle signal, so it will be very dim. If you are going to test boards, you are going to need some equipment.
I just picked it up at my local electronics shop for $10. so...hopefully I'll get a "yes it will" or "no it won't" before I go home so I can keep/return it. :)
> I just picked it up at my local electronics shop for $10. > so...hopefully I'll get a "yes it will" or "no it won't" before I go > home so I can keep/return it. :)
> > I just picked it up at my local electronics shop for $10. > > so...hopefully I'll get a "yes it will" or "no it won't" before I go > > home so I can keep/return it. :)
Nuggy may be right. If you still want to try, you connect the black lead to ground, red clip lead to +5. Then touch the metal tip of the probe to the test point.
Board repair and diagnosis takes lots of experience and/or education. You need to decide if you are up to it.
'nuggy' wrote: > Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > > Holy jeebers Edward....you know what I noticed when I got home? I have > > no flippin clue how to use this logic probe.
> then you probably are out of your depth at this point in time!
Okay, I obviously don't know what I'm doing, so before I do anything...I'm gonna bouce a few things off you guys. Hopefull you can help.
Ed, in one of your previous posts you pointed out that at http://www.robotroom.com/AlphanumericDisplaySchematic.gif the segment I'm having a problem with is clearly lableled "J" and that I should check J12 pin 12 because that's the J. However in the 18mb BK2K manual at ipdb.org: http://www.ipdb.org/files/311/Williams_1989_Black_Knight_2000_Operati... on page 89 (page 85 of an actual BK2K manual) of the PDF it shows that my bad segment is called "M" and on the next page it appears that the schematic says that on J3 "M" actually comes in on pin 14.
Now, I am trying to learn this stuff. reading up on basic electronics and learning how to read schematics and everything, and I'm pretty sure I'm doing this right. Hopefully someone won't mind helping me out by verifying this stuff. So if I was going to do it know with the information I've got here's what I'd do with my logic probe : I'd put my black clip on Pin1 of J3 of the Master Display 88 board (because it's a ground pin) I'd put my Red clip on +5vdc that I would get from (I'm really not sure on this one) pin 6 on J7 then put my logic tip (ever so carefully because I don't want to touch 2 things...) on Pin 14 of J3.
You're obviously much better at this stuff than I am, so..I'm hoping that the BK2K manual is just strange/different in it's calling that segment M, but it seems consistant. J is still pin 12 like you said...but my manual calls that segment M.
I hope that makes sense. Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to read this and/or post a response.
Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > on page 89 (page 85 of an actual BK2K manual) of the PDF it shows that > my bad segment is called "M" and on the next page it appears that the > schematic says that on J3 "M" actually comes in on pin 14.
Yes, there is a discrepancy between the two references. Don't worry about it. The one in the Williams manual is consistent with the schematic. I verified this when I developed my Williams CPU tester: http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/cpu.htm but forgot that the segments are defined in the manual when I wrote you before.
> I'd put my black clip on Pin1 of J3 of the Master Display 88 board > (because it's a ground pin) > I'd put my Red clip on +5vdc that I would get from (I'm really not sure > on this one) pin 6 on J7
Per my System 11 manual (Pinbot), gnd is J11 pin 1 and 5V is J11 pin 6. It should be the same.
> then put my logic tip (ever so carefully because I don't want to touch > 2 things...) on Pin 14 of J3.
Now visit the pins of J12 (segment inputs) and see if segment 'm' pulses. Try all the other segments while you are at it just in case there is a mismatch somewhere.
Oh I saw your tester yesterday and I know you're an amazing talent! I mean...seriously...that thing is freakin amazing!!!!
So..obviously...I'm even more hopeless than I thought.....I keep thinking I should be working on the board with the score glasses on it. but there's no J11 or J12 on it. so I thought maybe you meant the Backbox interconnect board, but.those say they go to the the flash lamps...so I don't even know what J11 and J12 you're talking about! :(
Okay, I checked out the Pinbot...it has a totally different display system from the BK2K beaver wrote. The BK2K has 2 16 Alpha Numeric glasses while the Pinbot has the 4 sets of 7 and one that's 4 Numerics. It looks like everything comes to my board through 1 ribbon cable (IDE Style..) and goes around the board and the glass is soldered straight to that board.
if nothing else it seems to me that there very well could be a J11 and a J12 on your Pinbot Master Display Board, but on my BK2K one, there are only 7. (J1-J7)
So I'm hopeing that what i said eariler was correct and someone can verify that for me?
> Allroy1975_@_yahoo.com wrote: > > on page 89 (page 85 of an actual BK2K manual) of the PDF it shows that > > my bad segment is called "M" and on the next page it appears that the > > schematic says that on J3 "M" actually comes in on pin 14.
> Yes, there is a discrepancy between the two references. Don't worry > about it. The one in the Williams manual is consistent with the > schematic. I verified this when I developed my Williams CPU tester: > http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/cpu.htm > but forgot that the segments are defined in the manual when I wrote you > before.
> > I'd put my black clip on Pin1 of J3 of the Master Display 88 board > > (because it's a ground pin) > > I'd put my Red clip on +5vdc that I would get from (I'm really not sure > > on this one) pin 6 on J7
> Per my System 11 manual (Pinbot), gnd is J11 pin 1 and 5V is J11 pin 6. > It should be the same.
> > then put my logic tip (ever so carefully because I don't want to touch > > 2 things...) on Pin 14 of J3.
> Now visit the pins of J12 (segment inputs) and see if segment 'm' > pulses. Try all the other segments while you are at it just in case > there is a mismatch somewhere.
