The problem with all these "How Stern can save itself" posts.
milt
HOW to run it! Really? You think you can do better than Gary Stern? You
think you got the magic bullet? Well, what's stopping you from doing it
yourself? I mean you got it all worked out so the fact you don't have
the cash to get it off the ground shouldn't stop you. You got the
pinball problem worked out, I'm sure you can work out how to raise a few
million bucks.
Hey, say what you want about Gary Stern but he's kept the business going
this long AND he is the last pinball manufacturer left, he HAS to be
doing something right.
crashb4
can.
thabigwolf
I got an idea on how to raise the Million bucks...
Say that I sell preorders to a game that I never intend to make - Only
to use that money to make parts that I sell at overpriced rates.. And
then after years of people waiting - I pay those that want out slowly
thus making tons of money off other peoples money and never producing
said MM i mean said preorder game....
Oh did I mention I would have a forumn on my website that I control
and ban people from when they talk bad about me....
milt
>
> I got an idea on how to raise the Million bucks...
>
> Say that I sell preorders to a game that I never intend to make - Only
> to use that money to make parts that I sell at overpriced rates.. And
> then after years of people waiting - I pay those that want out slowly
> thus making tons of money off other peoples money and never producing
> said MM i mean said preorder game....
>
> Oh did I mention I would have a forumn on my website that I control
> and ban people from when they talk bad about me....
>
That's just crazy, that would NEVER work! I mean really, who would fall
for such a thing and who would have the balls to try to pull off such a
scam?
TMFP
posts!
joe mamma pinballwizzNO@SPAMgmail.com
how they run their company.
When did it become my responsibility or yours to run the damn company?
I must have missed that memo.
Best of luck to anyone who build pinz..... I guess that would be Stern
at this point.
CKruger
milt
Yes, it would be Stern, the sole survivor, if you will.
pincorrect
> All these people that think they know better than anyone at the company,
> HOW to run it! Really? You think you can do better than Gary Stern?
I know I could do better than Gary Stern. I've never lost money on any
business ventures I've been principallly involved in and I've created
commercial products and successfully taken them to market worldwide.
I also consult with businesses and have helped many companies make
tens of millions of dollars.
> You think you got the magic bullet? Well, what's stopping you from doing it
> yourself? I mean you got it all worked out so the fact you don't have
> the cash to get it off the ground shouldn't stop you. You got the
> pinball problem worked out, I'm sure you can work out how to raise a few
> million bucks.
It's too late for Stern. I wouldn't enter their market because the
market is gone. But it's a fun thought experiment.
> Hey, say what you want about Gary Stern but he's kept the business going
> this long AND he is the last pinball manufacturer left, he HAS to be
> doing something right.
Well, he has no competition and he's still losing market share!
That's not what I call "doing something right" but yea, a broken clock
will be viewed as being "on time" twice a day.
pincorrect
> Amen brother. Those who can; do. Those who can't; criticise those who
> can.
And those who whine about how they want everybody to shut up who can't
say anything nice, are insecure, obsequious, weenies.
Rule #1 of business is pay attention to your market. (aka "the
customer is always right") To suggest that other peoples' comments
and suggestions are stupid and superfluous is the height of naivety.
I'm not suggesting many peoples' "suggestions" aren't dopey and
unrealistic, but I still respect that everyone has an opinion and if
Stern were really interested in making his business successful (and
assuming RGP was a market he felt was worth pandering too, like most
people here passionately seem to believe) he'd be foolish for not
listening to what people have to say. The only turd in that punch
bowl are people who stupidly think everything is peachy and it's
somehow in bad taste to offer constructive criticism.
Lloyd Olson
Lottery win and I'll drag Stern pinball into the next century. LTG :)
"milt" <theatre_n...@miltsweb.com> wrote in message
news:hgjmj2$reb$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
jiar...@aol.com
Save a hundred of each pin then sell them as NIB 5 yrs later for 3
times the price after they are no longer available.
Brian
> HOW to run it! Really? You think you can do better than Gary Stern? You
> think you got the magic bullet? Well, what's stopping you from doing it
> yourself? I mean you got it all worked out so the fact you don't have
> the cash to get it off the ground shouldn't stop you. You got the
> pinball problem worked out, I'm sure you can work out how to raise a few
> million bucks.
We are on a DISCUSSION forum, ya know to DISCUSS things...
With that said, I firmly believe that some people COULD do better, if
they were ever put in a position or had the the opportunity to do so.
See that's the thing -- opportunity -- and Gary Stern was practically
born into the industry and had the background and connections that
gave him the opportunity to take advantage of it.
Just because people don't have the resources (ie, money) or the
connections doesn't mean they couldn't do a better job. Hell if anyone
of us were a multi-millionaires, we could have easily bought Stern
this year take a stab at it, but we are not... so we talk about it.
> Hey, say what you want about Gary Stern but he's kept the business going
> this long AND he is the last pinball manufacturer left, he HAS to be
> doing something right.
Gary Stern was in the right place at the right time. He takes over a
company that is privately owned and answers to ONE shareholder --
himself. He is the sole maker of a product with no direct competitor.
The only competitor (WMS) had to leave because they were losing money
and they are accountable to many public shareholders. If Stern was
publicly traded on the stock exchanges, pinball would have been dead
years ago.
You cannot deny the facts: Since Stern has 100% of the market, total
market has continued to drop and they are now losing money. Demand for
their product is dropping. Their product is IDENTICAL to the product
sold over the past 20 years (and competes with that product) and there
has been almost ZERO innovation.
-- Brian
joe mamma pinballwizzNO@SPAMgmail.com
Great idea (if they are still in business in 5yrs) Ok, I understand
some good points made here. Just tossed my thoughts out. More then
just my opinion on the topic available and just as valid.
CKruger :-)
pincorrect
> I think I can do better. Only thing stopping me is the millions to do it.
> Lottery win and I'll drag Stern pinball into the next century. LTG :)
You may be onto something Lloyd. If someone gave Stern millions of
dollars he could probably stay in business a little longer. Why don't
we take up a collection on RGP and bail him out?
pincorrect
> With that said, I firmly believe that some people COULD do better, if
> they were ever put in a position or had the the opportunity to do so.
> See that's the thing -- opportunity -- and Gary Stern was practically
> born into the industry and had the background and connections that
> gave him the opportunity to take advantage of it.
What Gary needs to do is get into another market that has more
potential, like opening a chain of one-hour photo developer shops.
alive-cds
our Mustang to look like? Tell Steve Jobs and Apple how to make the
iPod better? While we all here on the group are lovers of pinball, we
really need do ask ourselves a few questions. How many of us bought a
NIB MM or CC and kept it? Back in the day there were hardly any home
collectors. You could buy TAF's all day long for under a grand and now
they are in the $3K range. They're were thousands of them. The only
reason MM commands the moneyit does is because of supply and demand.
Plain and simple, not enough made. Hell, CC's and CV's were on blowout
for $1900 back in their day. Now people want the next MM to come from
the last pinball manufacture, Stern. So with every release comes some
excitement and anticipation, but when pics and videos are released
everyone bags on it. Even I admit I haven't met a new Stern pinball
machine that I'd want to pluck down NIB cash for when I know I can get
a HUO one a year later for a lot less. (For the record I don't have
any Sterns) So either Stern goes out of business or we keep hoping for
the next great pinball machine. Everybody claims SM or at one time
POTC is the next MM, just wait and see. Crap, people are banking of
LOTR going up and are going crazy buying the LE edition. LE my ass.
They couldn't get rid of all the Dale Jr Nascars. Gary has said he
caters to the ops...and people here agree he's not listening to the
home market or RPG members. So we're going to keep getting pixelated
art packages, unfinished code and playfields that show wear 6 months
later...oh wait, LE gets you a real backglass and 2 extra coats of
clearcoat for a few grand $$ more!! Thats just the way it is. Stop
complaining and let him run his business. Then again maybe Gary should
hire pincorrect to help him reel in all those millions. In the
meantime I'll sell you POTCs for $6K all day long!
Lloyd Olson
new owner, and implementing my thoughts for the future of pinball. LTG :)
"pincorrect" <ico...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13c6043d-fdac-4929...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Pinball Life
shrinking. Currently it's shrinking. 15 years ago (approx.) the
market could handle 3 pinbal manufactures, 10 years ago (approx.) it
could handle 2. Now it barely handles 1. I believe a small pinball
company that produced 2 good games a year with a run of about 500
games each could survive for the next 10 years or so. This would be a
different business model than Stern currently has (not that they
couldn't morph into that) or that any pinball company has ever had in
recent memory. You would need about 10 people in the company and,
sorry, assembly would have to be in China. As a start up company
these 10 people would have to be willing/able to work for nothing
today in the slim hopes that tomorrow would bring a monatary reward.
It's a freaking long shot, but I've thrown it out there to many a
passionate pinball hobbiest in the past. No takers yet.
Terry.
Mark Clayton
Pinball Life
> Terry:
>
> A lot of what you're describing is close to Retro Pinball LLC.
>
doing. Did King of Diamonds come out? What was the production run if
it did? Fabulous Fantisies' web site has not updated the statis of
this project since 11/2007. I'm not dissing Retro Pinball, it is just
unclear to me what they are currently up to, if anything. Making a
pinball machine from scratch is a bigger project that just about
anyone can imagine. I have had many serious conversations about such
things with many people and none of these conversations have ever got
out of the bong stage.
Terry.
taylor34
possibly pay a little more than their standard rate if they have
nothing else better in the que. Like I know it's been mentioned that
transformers and a rock band got put to rest for some reason or
another, but money was rumored to be part of it. So instead we get
like CSI, 24, and NBA. I think they'd be a lot better off spending an
extra $50 per machine sometimes on licensing for some themes rather
than choosing a cheaper poor theme. Poor themes don't rerun no matter
how much fun the games is, a quality game with a good theme can be re-
ran for years. Not that hard of a concept. :)
Taylor34
nworker
> Oh boy, what's next? Are we going to start telling Ford what we want
> our Mustang to look like? Tell Steve Jobs and Apple how to make the
> iPod better?
The big innovation today is how to get the customer engaged in the
development of the product. Steve Jobs does know how to make the
iPhone better: get people writing apps. He might be a control freak,
but he knows how to build a community of dedicated workers that pay
him!
If you haven't been dead for the last three years there is the new
thing called social media and companies ignore it at their own peril.
The ones that can figure out how to exploit the real time information
coming at them from their customers are the ones who are winning. You
never know when your market is going to change and new customers are
found. Operators are clearly the bread and butter. The question is how
to expand the market by bringing in new paying customers. How about a
pinball machine in every school, al la Steve Jobs, to teach kids human/
machine interaction, real time computing, and maybe machine learning.
Gosh at 4,500 per workstation, it is a hell of a deal.
I have said for a long time what is needed is something akin to the
open source movement for pinball. It has been pointed out you can't
have hackers controlling flash lamps or solenoids. If they are not
handled properly, things can catch fire. What about switches, speech
calls, and low power lamps. It would be fantastic to have this
community adding to the rule sets and having everybody wanting to get
in on the game of having their very own personalized pinball.
With all of the work going in to android, another idea is to have a
small color display capable of showing players how to play the ball
given the current state of the playfield. Again something where the
whole community can contribute and get involved with creating. This
community is vibrant and talented, the question is how to harness that
creativity for the benefit of the whole community.
Retrogameconnection
Well put.
With a little creativity, vision, talented programmers (that are
allowed to finish their work) and engineering know how there is no
reason why Stern pinballs couldn't be online.
Running open source software would be huge. Hell, having a design
tournament would probably be extrememly successful! You can design
the next Stern pinball !
Why doesn't pinball report problems directly to the operators when
they happen? Hell, Payphones that Williams made back in 1984 did
that. They already have the reporting system in place in the
machines.
Worldwide tournament software to manage and track players and provide
real-time results on your favorite social-network should be standard
issue on all Sterns. Monitoring your favorite machines live online
would be fun!
The internet connection is optional. I don't think most businesses
would have a problem with who's paying for the internet. Most
businesses already have a connection anyway!
There are so many cool possibilities when you start thinking about
what a pinball machine that is online could do...
kreed
If he has no competition then he always has 100% of the market share.
The actual market for new pins probably is shrinking, (ie: numbers of
games sold per year)
but his share of it is always going to be 100% even if the entire
market is only one game per year, and he is the one making it. (no
competition)
pincorrect
> Thats just the way it is. Stop
> complaining and let him run his business. Then again maybe Gary should
> hire pincorrect to help him reel in all those millions. In the
> meantime I'll sell you POTCs for $6K all day long!
Stern has not made very many progressive business decisions. Don't
jump my case because I'm just pointing it out.
What bothers me is people like you who act as apologists for the
status quo. If you were on the titanic, or perhaps United Flight 93,
you'd be saying the same thing: "People, just let the pilots do their
thing. Sit down. Everything is fine. I'm sure they know what
they're doing."
Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Stern to flourish, but we need to be
realistic about this. The pinball market is not a current, lively
market. It needs to progress into the retro industry it really is and
people need to stop fooling themselves that pinball is still a viable
business on any sizeable scale. I might be more optimistic if Stern
had any track record of something other than being on autopilot for
the last 20 years. There is no simple solution that will turn Stern
around.
So we here on RGP talk about the marketplace and play "what if".
What's so wrong with that?
I don't see how your revelation that MM wasn't a success right away
has any bearing on peoples' criticism of Stern? Apples and oranges.
It's pretty obvious the most innovative pinball producer ever was
Williams, and they left the market. What people seem to be unwilling
to acknowledge is what Williams knew many years ago. And why do
people like me get beat up for saying the emperor has no clothes?
Pinball will always be around. But Stern, IMO is neither a pioneer,
nor an innovator, so they're not what I'd like to see as the remaining
icon of the industry. They're going to go out Elvis-style, sitting on
the toilet, bloated and talentless. I'd prefer to remember pinball in
a more vibrant, earlier era, going out with a bang like Williams
shutting down P2K and moving on. Your mileage may vary.
pincorrect
> Running open source software would be huge. Hell, having a design
> tournament would probably be extrememly successful! You can design
> the next Stern pinball !
There are some open source pinball code projects now - if anything has
the potential to revitalize the industry, that could be it, but the
problem is, it's a grass roots program and the people involved do it
for the love and not money, which means nobody really spends that much
time on the project when they have to hold down a real job to pay
their bills.
> Why doesn't pinball report problems directly to the operators when
> they happen? Hell, Payphones that Williams made back in 1984 did
> that. They already have the reporting system in place in the
> machines.
For this reason, at this point, it's almost criminally negligent in
how Stern has completely ignored virtually all technological
advancements in the last 20+ years. I still don't understand why
people defend this company. It would probably be better for the
industry for them to just fold up shop so that a newer, more
innovative group can come in and fill the ever-diminishing gap with
something new and creative before Stern completely evaporates the
marketplace with their uninspiring product line.
> There are so many cool possibilities when you start thinking about
> what a pinball machine that is online could do...
And we can count on Stern not giving a crap about any of the
possibilities. The sooner we stop listening to the naysayers who tell
us it's improper to criticize them, the sooner we can move them out of
the way so that someone can take their place that probably doesn't
think the Internet is "a series of tubes."
pincorrect
> If he has no competition then he always has 100% of the market share.
Yea, and he's single-handedly destroying the market so that when he
closes up shop, there will be nothing left for another, more
innovative company to tap into.
This is what people here don't get. While they defend Stern, they're
basically allowing the remaining market for pinballs die a slow,
lethargic death along with Stern.
kreed
> On Dec 20, 1:41 am, kreed <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If he has no competition then he always has 100% of the market share.
>
> Yea, and he's single-handedly destroying the market so that when he
> closes up shop, there will be nothing left for another, more
> innovative company to tap into.
I don't think there is likely to be one, Stern will probably be the
end of it.
WMS was the only innovator in modern times that I can think of and all
that is long gone.
The knowledge and skills from there are probably gone by now too.
That is the most important part that is needed.
> This is what people here don't get. While they defend Stern, they're
> basically allowing the remaining market for pinballs die a slow,
> lethargic death along with Stern.
The few that I have seen over the years didnt impress me.
Jonathan
So right!
Jonathan
Oh, I get that. But I still believe a new manufacturer can get his
foot in the market with 1 good game. Operators do want pinballs, they
just don't want Sterns.
Jonathan
You seem to forget the market is in its current size because of the
games that 1 manufacturer has put out the past 10 years. There could
be a bigger market, if the games were innovative and fun.
Tom
frenchy
with this market I'm surprised pinball hasn't either totally
disappeared OR that it hasn't been downgraded in scope into some damn
redemption contraption. To think that Gary has kept pinball going for
10 years since Williams went kaplooey along with the pin market, truly
astounding.
I don't see anything wrong with people saying Stern should do this or
that, so what, freedom of speech.
Jonathan
> All these people that think they know better than anyone at the company,
> think you got the magic bullet? Well, what's stopping you from doing it
> yourself? I mean you got it all worked out so the fact you don't have
> the cash to get it off the ground shouldn't stop you. You got the
> pinball problem worked out, I'm sure you can work out how to raise a few
> million bucks.
>
> this long AND he is the last pinball manufacturer left, he HAS to be
> doing something right.
What makes you think nobody is setting up something? Just because you
don't know about it doesn't mean nothings happening...
Tom
kreed
> Sure Stern isn't spending money on each design like Williams did, but
> with this market I'm surprised pinball hasn't either totally
> disappeared OR that it hasn't been downgraded in scope into some damn
> redemption contraption. To think that Gary has kept pinball going for
> 10 years since Williams went kaplooey along with the pin market, truly
> astounding.
I agree, whether you love or hate Stern,
it is quite an achievement in the lousy pinball market of the last
decade to keep it going like he has.
> I don't see anything wrong with people saying Stern should do this or
> that, so what, freedom of speech.
Same here, I remember well when most Western nations used to have that
right,
and the general public would defend anyone who's free speech was
challenged.
CEG
Maybe he should change his name to Williams then???
Jeff S
Stern occur and are well responded. RGP contains lots of people whom
are passionate about the hobby and Stern refuses to embrace even the
simplest and most common sense innovations. Lots of the ideas
presented are inexpensive and many are low risk with a immediate
returns, yet to my knowledge, not a single damn one has ever
occurred. For a company to struggle and not attempt to make changes
is akin to banging your head on the wall until the results change.
That tells me that ether Gary is asleep at the wheel, doesn't give a
rat's ass about running a company, is too paralyzed with fear to make
changes or just plain arrogant.
JeffS
ATL
I think I could run Stern alot better, but If I had a few million
bucks laying around, I wouldn't spend it building a pinball company.
I am smart enough to know that would be a bad investment.
milt
Oh yeah, because others are just DYING to get into the market right now.
Gary Stern isn't destroying the market for others, there IS no others
and not likely to be any. So, instead of supporting the last pinball
maker there will probably ever be, you'd rather bash it and hope for its
demise? That makes no damn sense.
Let me make this a little clearer, if/when Stern were to go under, that
would be it for Pinball. There would be NO MORE new machines. Pinball,
at that point, would become a collectors hobby only, hence, driving up
the prices for everything. The only people it would be good for are the
people that treat their machines as investments.
milt
> I still don't understand why people defend this company. It would probably be better for the
> industry for them to just fold up shop so that a newer, more
> innovative group can come in and fill the ever-diminishing gap with
> something new and creative before Stern completely evaporates the
> marketplace with their uninspiring product line.
>
Good lord you are ignorant, who is this mystery company that you speak
of that Stern is holding back? If they were so innovative, and so
amazing, they wouldn't need Stern to "get out of the way". Free Market
enterprise is a wonderful thing, if someone has a better idea, they just
do it and take the market! This "new company" you speak of, could just
start making machines that are "so advanced" and if they were truly that
much better they would TAKE the market share from Stern! They would
either A> Force Stern to change their game plan to compete or B> Go under.
Right now, Stern has ZERO motivation to change what they are doing as
they are the only game in town and they appear to be the last, with no
competition anywhere to be found.
So right now, to wish for the death of Stern Pinball is to wish for the
death of pinball itself. Now why on Earth would you want to do that?
milt
>
> What makes you think nobody is setting up something? Just because you
> don't know about it doesn't mean nothings happening...
>
> Tom
Well, until I see something solid happening, I don't believe its
happening. As the old saying goes "Well, I'm from Missouri, show me..."
Unless you're one of those people that still think TPF is still a real
pinball maker.
Lloyd Olson
"milt" <theatre_n...@miltsweb.com> wrote in message
news:hglqo3$nvs$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Lloyd Olson
for ops to buy. Cut the cost in half and they'll give them a second chance.
No op is going to put $4500 into a game earning $25 a week, but get that
down to $2500 and they'll sell. LTG :)
"Jonathan" <tomc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:320aab43-0f60-4775...@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
pincorrect
> Oh yeah, because others are just DYING to get into the market right now.
> Gary Stern isn't destroying the market for others, there IS no others
> and not likely to be any. So, instead of supporting the last pinball
> maker there will probably ever be, you'd rather bash it and hope for its
> demise? That makes no damn sense.
So you're saying the declining market has nothing to do with the fact
that Stern hasn't changed their business model in 20+ years?
Stern is NOT "the last pinball maker there will probably ever be."
There are other pinball makers right now. Stern is just the last of
the "old school" manufacturers. It's time for a changing of the
guard.
> Let me make this a little clearer, if/when Stern were to go under, that
> would be it for Pinball. There would be NO MORE new machines.
Again, not true.
And if pinballs stopped being manufactured, then that's the nature of
the market. Stern certainly isn't saving the market. I'm not sure
what you're expecting to magically happen to Stern that's going to
change things when they haven't paid attention to the declining market
in the last 20 years.
> Pinball,
> at that point, would become a collectors hobby only, hence, driving up
> the prices for everything. The only people it would be good for are the
> people that treat their machines as investments.
Pinball is basically a collectors hobby now. Maybe if we get some new
manufacturers in the marketplace who make better, more innovative,
more reliable machines, they can turn it around. That's basically the
only chance there is. I admit it's slim, but Stern is not the answer
and avoiding any criticism of the company simply because they're the
last one left doesn't really serve anybody's purpose.
pincorrect
> Right now there is a golden opportunity to bring back pinball. Not much else
> for ops to buy. Cut the cost in half and they'll give them a second chance.
> No op is going to put $4500 into a game earning $25 a week, but get that
> down to $2500 and they'll sell. LTG :)
And hell, $2500 is a very realistic figure. In reality, with proper
planning, you could probably get the price down to almost half that.
P2K was heading in the right direction - if they could have made the
playfield as modular as their software system, they might have nailed
it, and kept production costs to a minimum so new games could be
easily rolled out once a base platform was in place.
milt
>
> Stern is NOT "the last pinball maker there will probably ever be."
> There are other pinball makers right now. Stern is just the last of
> the "old school" manufacturers. It's time for a changing of the
> guard.
>
>
milt
> Thankfully that will soon change. LTG :)
>
>
I've heard that story before.
Lloyd Olson
> On 12/20/2009 1:01 PM, Lloyd Olson wrote:
>> Thankfully that will soon change. LTG :)
>>
>>
>
> I've heard that story before.
Not this one you haven't. LTG :)
pincorrect
How about King of Diamonds by the Fabulous Fantasies people?
Jeff S
Unfortunately, the second Stern announces new pins for $2,500, all the
rejoicing will be drowned by cries from people complaining they
recently spent twice that on theirs and they'd like to know where to
get a refund for the difference. Some folks will never be happy.
JeffS
ATL
mnpinball
Evidently a big announcement in Jan 2010 about another new pinball
company. Have to be patient until the press release.
Oh, and the big Jack post of the year also in Jan about Stern. 2010
will start out like a BANG !!!
milt
Wow, I didn't think anyone was going to be dumb enough to mention a VERY
small limited run machine, a remake of a 60s EM even! I wouldn't call
Fabulous Fantasies a pinball maker, in the same way Stern is one. Stern
makes new machines from the ground up, the KOD remake was a redesign of
a 60s EM and then the machines were built by out-sourcing the playfield
population to China. The machines STILL cost about 4k and they are EMs
with SS guts. This is big innovation, how? This is cost-cutting, how?
pincorrect
> > How about King of Diamonds by the Fabulous Fantasies people?
>
> Wow, I didn't think anyone was going to be dumb enough to mention a VERY
> small limited run machine, a remake of a 60s EM even! I wouldn't call
> Fabulous Fantasies a pinball maker, in the same way Stern is one.
Let's revisit your previous, incorrect, boneheaded comments:
MILT said: "Gary Stern isn't destroying the market for others, there
IS no others
and not likely to be any...Let me make this a little clearer, if/when
Stern were to go under, that
would be it for Pinball. There would be NO MORE new machines. "
There ARE new machines. You are a fucking ignorant moron.
When I point out there are people MAKING PINBALL MACHINES, which
clearly conflicts with your stupid-ass claim, you try to re-define
what you meant by your original comments. Go ahead back-pedal.
You're still either an idiot or a liar, but probably both, and you
have the nerve to call me "ignorant?" That's fucking rich.
So what's the deal? Are you Gary's little private gimp or
something?
If there is a market for pinball, then there will be new makers.
REGARDLESS of whether Stern is in existence or not. I never said any
new maker would come out with fucking telepathic automated robotic
repair and have machines that cost $10 so shut the fuck up with your
stupid bullshit. I outlined what I think could make the market more
appealing to operators. Maybe someone will address that and the
market will grow larger, or maybe they won't, and maybe there will
just be little "boutique manufacturers" like Fabulous Fantasies, but
either way, there are people making machines.
So let's review: Milt is the one who is ignorant. Now that's been
established, maybe we can move forward without his little Stern ass-
licking apologetics.
pincorrect
> Unfortunately, the second Stern announces new pins for $2,500, all the
> rejoicing will be drowned by cries from people complaining they
> recently spent twice that on theirs and they'd like to know where to
> get a refund for the difference. Some folks will never be happy.
Look what Apple did with their new iPhone. They enhanced the features
and cut the price. I don't think that hurt their market share or
their customer base very much.
milt
> On Dec 20, 5:58 pm, pincorrect<icor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just so you know Milt, two can play your little ad hominem-spewing
> game. Call me ignorant and stupid because you can't make a decent
> counter argument, and I'll get back in your face and expose you for a
> little whining hypocrite that you are.
>
> Sorry for everyone else that had to witness it, but he had to make it
> personal because someone disagreed with him... Boo fucking hoo.
You aren't sorry for shit, thanks for proving your a little troll-boy.
Yet another Stern-hater that resorts to personal attacks when your
arguement is shot to hell.
Also repros of 60s EMs is NOT new. Do you not understand what NEW means?
New means something not done before.
Furthermore, this is what I do to trolls in this newsgroup...
*PLONK*
pincorrect
> You aren't sorry for shit, thanks for proving your a little troll-boy.
> Yet another Stern-hater that resorts to personal attacks when your
> arguement is shot to hell.
If hypocrisy were a commodity you'd have market share.
> Also repros of 60s EMs is NOT new. Do you not understand what NEW means?
> New means something not done before.
>
> Furthermore, this is what I do to trolls in this newsgroup...
>
> *PLONK*
Give it up. You got 0wned. You make sweeping generalizations and
inaccurate statements and then when I call your sorry ass out, you
call me a troll.
Everyone saw what you did. Too late.
You started this stupid thread with your dumbass argument that
suggested Stern somehow be immune from any criticism by virtue of the
fact that they're the last and only pinball manufacturer around. Not
only was your argument lame and stupid, it was also wrong.
Just give it up. Actually, no, don't give it up. Keep digging. I'm
enjoying this. You haven't compared me to Hitler yet.
mr tobias
> Right now there is a golden opportunity to bring back pinball. Not much else
> for ops to buy. Cut the cost in half and they'll give them a second chance.
> No op is going to put $4500 into a game earning $25 a week, but get that
> down to $2500 and they'll sell. LTG :)
I think one of the biggest stoppers with NBA was its price. Stern
saved money by rehashing an old design, and operators might have
bought it if the savings had been reflected in a lower price. But no,
the same price as all the others pretty much guaranteed it would fail.
mr tobias
because I keep hoping they'll get better, but since Gary Stern seems
to have his head buried so deep in the sand that the grass is
sprouting out of his shoe soles, there probably isn't much point.
After a very slow start the company was starting to get it together in
the mid 2000s. Then some poor choices, and what seems like micro
management by the main man himself, saw it all go into reverse, not
helped by a depressed economy. This lack of a competitor now seems to
be a bad thing.
vivacarlos
The lack of competition.
Thats always a bad thing.
kreed
An old design would cost nearly as much money as a new one to
manufacture and assemble.
If you were to start making new "Black Knight" , "high speed" etc
games right now (obsolete technology) even using modern mechanical
assemblies (if cheaper) , I doubt there would be much difference in
price to a making a modern pin.
kreed
That is another very real problem.
Competition pushes people and businesses to improve their product and
to innovate and "beat" the competition.
Developments in the past by one pin company were adopted in one form
or the other by the other companies and added to the appeal and
progress of pinball. I think you will find this process has stalled
since PIN 2K
milt
>
> Developments in the past by one pin company were adopted in one form
> or the other by the other companies and added to the appeal and
> progress of pinball. I think you will find this process has stalled
> since PIN 2K
>
Unless you count the new SAM system. Updating the game by use of a thumb
drive instead of replacing ROMs? I'd say that's a major innovation.
Sam
How does that attract new players? It's pretty safe to say that only
pinheads care whether a pin is running on latest code.
Sam
kbliznick
> drive instead of replacing ROMs? I'd say that's a major innovation.
You could argue that it was a major step backwards. It allowed Stern
to put out games with unfinished code because it is so easy to update
it later.
Jonny O
>
> Yes, it would be Stern, the sole survivor, if you will.
Stern is the last mechanical pinball maker, other than the boutiques.
There have been many video pin makers over the years as well, and
several open source projects.
Cliff Tucker
I think part of the demise in pinball amongst other things has been the
"reliability factor"
How can you sell new pinball machines if the old ones don't break down or
wear out?
I cant see how making a pinball more reliable is going to help sales of new
machines or replacement parts.
Unless of course there is some inovation or improvement that warrants
replacement.
Stern does still manage to innovate in a very difficult business environment
to sell product in meaning full numbers.
What really concerns me is pinny wholesaler/dealer network are not
supporting the product by investing in marketting to potential customers and
operators of the benefits of owning or operating a pinball machine. A
concerted effort by Stern and its dealers is needed to have a voice in the
toy/collectible/operator environment to generate sales and stimulate the
market place for pinball ownership. I dont see adds in the papers or on TV
for pinball, I do for Wii etc etc.
Has anybody explained the health benefits that playing pinball can provide?
No.
Has anybody tried to explain why pinball is better than Wii /Xbox/PS3 or
other sports etc. No.
Has anybody tried to explain why the machine costs as much as it does? No.
I think marketting contributes more to the demise of pinball more so than
reliability factors but both are important.
Regards all.
Cliff.
"Jonny O" <jonny...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be3c73b3-9b47-4db8...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
milt
How is that a major step backwards? Oh yes, its better to go back to
ROMs and that way Stern can only put out 1 machine per year, depending
how fast they can get the code finished, meanwhile spending money to
keep the business going without income.
Oh yes, I forget, nothing Stern does is ANY good. They should just go
out of business and leave pinball to the hobbyists. The whole "Stern can
do no right" mentality has become terribly old.
milt
>
> How does that attract new players? It's pretty safe to say that only
> pinheads care whether a pin is running on latest code.
>
> Sam
Its a major innovation, no one said it only had to be innovations in
relation to attracting new players.
Destruk
someone else can do it better - from the 'horse's mouth so to speak'
-- http://pinballnews.com/news/sternpartner.html then what makes you
so sure nobody else here can?
Sam
I disagree. Stern isn't selling enough machines. So any improvements
that are made has to impact the bottom line. The USB update is
convenient for operators but that alone doesn't attract the general
public to put in more coins.
Sam
kreed
It's hardly an exciting selling point, or something that will get
players dropping coins.
The public aren't going to rush into arcades and queue up at the pins
based on this news.
While some ops may appreciate this, they arent going to rush out and
buy something if it isn't going to give a good return on their outlay
as well. In fact, something like this - with a USB protocol may
involve more complex boards, custom IC's etc. This sort of "non
repairable" stuff is more likely to frighten operators away than get
them to buy, if they have concerns (whether they are true or not) that
the manufacturer might not be around for long to supply these "custom"
parts if they die.
While I appreciate the technical effort involved in making something
like this work, to the general public, it's sort of like a horse drawn
coach manufacturer advertising they now fit airbags as standard and
based on this "innovation", then expect a sudden rush of buyers. Even
to those knowledgeable enough to appreciate the technical effort
involved, it still isn't going to get them playing if the game is
boring.
I also recall a recent post on here from someone who had tried to
update their pin using this thumb drive method, and the pin stopped
working altogether.
A response stated that they had also experienced this problem before
and that in that case the "CPU board had to be sent back to the
factory to be replaced".
This reminds me of what happens when flashing a motherboard's BIOS
goes wrong. You are absolutely screwed.
If this is a problem that is likely to occur, I will stick to ROMS.
If there are likely to be lots of ROM updates needed - fit a ZIF
socket for the ROM to allow physical replacement to be easy ;)
Jonny O
> My rant...
> I think part of the demise in pinball amongst other things has been the
> "reliability factor"
> How can you sell new pinball machines if the old ones don't break down or
> wear out?
> I cant see how making a pinball more reliable is going to help sales of new
> machines or replacement parts.
> Unless of course there is some inovation or improvement that warrants
> replacement.
Innovation should drive sales, not planned obsolescence. Obsolescence
occurs because the older model doesn't provide the fun, quality,
convenience, etc. the newer model does. In this era of solid state
electronics, people assume the device will continue working long after
it has gone out of style.
Pinball quit innovating at some point in the 90s and by the time it
was realized, it was too late. The top talent had been allowed to
fall too far behind the curve of the larger electronic gaming world.
For example - the widespead availability of broadband starting around
1998 and the introduction of 3D graphics cards around the same time,
coupled with the phenomenal success of the Playstation game console.
All of this meant the video arcade was done. Dead. Never coming
back. It had all moved into the home. But pinball was still chasing
quarters in arcades, which were an endangered species, rather than
trying to innovate and keep pace with what everyone else (music, video
games, movies) were doing, which was migrating into the home via the
internet.
kbliznick
> >> drive instead of replacing ROMs? I'd say that's a major innovation.
>
> > You could argue that it was a major step backwards. It allowed Stern
> > to put out games with unfinished code because it is so easy to update
> > it later.
>
> How is that a major step backwards? Oh yes, its better to go back to
> ROMs and that way Stern can only put out 1 machine per year, depending
> how fast they can get the code finished, meanwhile spending money to
> keep the business going without income.
Stop being an idiot, nobody said anything about ROMS. This point has
been gone over so many times here that it's beating a dead horse. The
concept of updating Via USB is a great idea. How Stern took advantage
of this innovation is the problem. Some of the games still aren't
finished and it doesn't look like they'll ever be.
dholm
> > >> Unless you count the new SAM system. Updating the game by use of a thumb
> > >> drive instead of replacing ROMs? I'd say that's a major innovation.
>
> > > You could argue that it was a major step backwards. It allowedStern
> > > to put out games with unfinished code because it is so easy to update
> > > it later.
>
> > How is that a major step backwards? Oh yes, its better to go back to
> > how fast they can get the code finished, meanwhile spending money to
> > keep the business going without income.
>
> Stop being an idiot, nobody said anything about ROMS. This point has
> been gone over so many times here that it's beating a dead horse. The
> of this innovation is the problem. Some of the games still aren't
> finished and it doesn't look like they'll ever be.
The following hit me like a ton of bricks when I picked up a Getaway
today for $700. I took my daughter last week to one of those new style
"ticket" oriented birthday place last week, she and I saw the lonely
Getaway, black with dust, GI out, sitting by itself, incapable of
feeding the youngsters what they wanted- TICKETS so they can trade for
cheap plastic crap made in china.
It seems really simple to me. Stern has a marketing and market
problem. New style arcades are without question, are "Ticket"
oriented. Kids go ape shiite over "tickets", and they pay for some
lame games. Games of chance actually. Some games are nothing more than
gambling games- parents are uncomfortable with those. Here's the deal,
I can't think of one kid who wouldn't dump one or even two of their
dollars if they were guaranteed "3" balls and at least 25 tickets,
with the potential for hundreds, depending on score. I also can't
think of one parent who wouldn't encourage their kid to play it. Look
around, arcades are dead, replaced by these ticket centric birthday
party centers.
Retrogameconnection
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree totally. Really, is there any reason why every new pinball
machine doesn't come with a ticket dispenser? Why haven't they in the
past? Makes no sense at all to me. Missing a huge market there ....
Lloyd Olson
brand dispenser, it has to be changed. And raises the price of each game and
loses sales.
Most games can have them added now anyway. LTG :)
"Retrogameconnection" <win...@ca.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2ff69fd4-4a77-485b...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
kreed
Take a look at most Gottlieb sys 3's they have had wiring, a power
socket and installation instructions for this very purpose since the
early 1990s
cody chunn
to make a scaled-down model that kids can step up to without a boost and
understand what to do immediately. Then after they learn the dynamics of
flippers, balls, and "shots", and have fun playing, *then* they can and will
graduate to full size games.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"kreed" <kenre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acb40b6d-351a-4d88...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Jonny O
> > It seems really simple to me. Stern has a marketing and market
> > problem. New style arcades are without question, are "Ticket"
> > oriented. Kids go ape shiite over "tickets", and they pay for some
> > lame games. Games of chance actually. Some games are nothing more than
> > gambling games- parents are uncomfortable with those. Here's the deal,
> > I can't think of one kid who wouldn't dump one or even two of their
> > dollars if they were guaranteed "3" balls and at least 25 tickets,
> > with the potential for hundreds, depending on score. I also can't
> > think of one parent who wouldn't encourage their kid to play it. Look
> > around, arcades are dead, replaced by these ticket centric birthday
> > party centers.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I agree totally. Really, is there any reason why every new pinball
> machine doesn't come with a ticket dispenser? Why haven't they in the
> past? Makes no sense at all to me. Missing a huge market there ....
There are some flipper-less games out there that dispense tickets
which vary from being similar to pinball to being "distant cousins".
Also, Playland Not at the Beach has added ticket play to their pins.
If you make certain scores (novice through champ) you notify the
attendant and you get tickets which can be redeemed for prizes. The
pins themselves don't have ticket dispensers.
I think many miss the point of ticket games. Skee ball has been
around for ages. Is it particularly deep? Are the prizes especially
good? No. But there's a goal/payoff to playing which adds excitement
and entertainment. The reason to play is not for the game play and
not for the prizes, it's for the sense of anticipation.
Most people could take a second job, or sell stuff in their basement
they don't use, and they would have a much bigger payday than on a
slot machine in vegas. But people play slots because of the
anticipation they create, the excitement of "possibility". People are
addicted to unlikely, fantastic possibilities - especially those which
require seemingly little effort on their part. (Pull handle - maybe
get rich).
To a lot of kids, that 30" flat screen TV for 80,000 tickets at the
redemption counter represents the same thing. That's what the games
are really about and what pinball lacks. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE HIGH
SCORE TABLE. The only people who care are other pinball players. But
everyone likes to talk about winning $800 on a quarter slot. Like
Paul Newman said in Color of Money, "Money won is twice as sweet as
money earned".
Getting a replay or your high score on the board only matters when
there is a "community" around pinball. That community creates a
different excitement: the thrill of competition. Pinball's community
is too scattered and too thin for most people to care today. When it's
hard to find competition, who cares if you're the best?
So yes, without competition to excite players, the quick reward of
ticket games is a good idea. You could probably wire the mechanism
into an EM to build a $500 redemption game that would have pretty
quick turnover.
phishrace
I think you're missing two huge points.
Ticket dispensers have been supported on virtually every recent Stern.
All the way back to Whitestar. Probably Sega's too. They are an
option, much like bill validators. Most ops don't want or use ticket
dispensers or bill validators. That is why they're options. To install
either is very simple. Remove filler panel on door, install dispenser/
validator, plug into factory 9 pin connector, change one standard
adjustment and you're done.
Not to mention the home buyers. They already have to pay for the coin
door parts they never use. Think they'd want to pay $200 more for a
dispenser they'll never use?
The other thing you're missing is that pinball has never been aimed at
kids. Until they get around their pre-teens, most don't have the hand/
eye coordination, patience or height for pinball. There are exceptions
and I'm not suggesting anyone stop recruiting the kids. Kids can have
a blast playing pinball for short bursts, but they sure as hell ain't
gonna 'save' pinball.
-phish
Jonny O
> The other thing you're missing is that pinball has never been aimed at
> kids. Until they get around their pre-teens, most don't have the hand/
> eye coordination, patience or height for pinball. There are exceptions
> and I'm not suggesting anyone stop recruiting the kids. Kids can have
> a blast playing pinball for short bursts, but they sure as hell ain't
> gonna 'save' pinball.
>
> -phish
Good points phish. Yeah, I don't think ticket games can "save"
pinball, either, but they might expand the market a little.
Also, when it comes to the redemption games, the other piece of the
puzzle is adults, so I do think there's a market there. I was at a
golfland not too long ago and they had a "deal or no deal" ticket
game, and it looked geared more toward adults than kids (including the
price). Since the adults are stuck there with the kids, I think they
wouldn't mind a few more ticket game options. Currently, the adults
tend to play driving games, DDR/Beatmania, and crane games. A pin
priced at $1, or $1.25, but which offered a redemption ticket
incentive might draw traffic.
By the same token, I think if a typical adult had a choice to play a
pin or a video game with ticket rewards, they would more likely choose
the video game.
dholm
These are all good points. BUT...
I know my 7 year old would love to play a single ball of Monster bash,
and have CONTROL over how many tickets she could earn. Imagine if she
hits the "jackpot" and the machine is spitting out tickets as she
plays, or displaying tickets in addition to score. Imagine ticket
centric game voices (Earn 5 tickets for each Frankenstein hit!)...
That would be the BOMB.
The positioning is:
1) A premium ticket game based on real physics that is more fun
2) Control the outcome and earn potentially crazy amounts of tickets
3) Fast game (one ball or so), but the longer you play (super fun),
the more you earn (super fun)
4) For parents, a game that rewards you child based on skill, not so
much as gambling luck (in this sense, its like skiball)
If I'm Stern, and I'm trying to sell more machines, I'd start by re-
packaging the features and benefits to fit what I think is the only
game in town (no pun intended). Supporting a "ticket dispenser" add on
is not a olution. Sales, marketing, and engineering have to be on
board. The game settings must support this market environment, and
people need to be re-educated. The games also need to have settings
for people like us.
And as for young kids not wanting to play, I think we're just dumbing
it down. Kids are smarter than you or I, they just don't have as much
experience. I loved watching my 7 year old girl yesterday say (After
doing the Picard maneuver during Q's challenge), exclaim "hey daddy, I
did that one thing where I shoot it up there and then up that ramp
there!). Imagine if she KNEW it was worth 50 tickets to do that shot.
She could give two craps that she scored 250Mil for the Q's mode, but
she would never forget EARNING 150 tickets for her skill...
Agreed though, It won't save pinball, but will certainly create young
fans, and create a fresh market for Stern.
kreed
> It's too late to retrofit a complex full-size machine for tickets. They need
> to make a scaled-down model that kids can step up to without a boost and
> understand what to do immediately. Then after they learn the dynamics of
> flippers, balls, and "shots", and have fun playing, *then* they can and will
> graduate to full size games.
Such as the "punchy the clown" mini redemption pinball clearly aimed
at the kids market ?
I think Gottlieb did a couple of these type too in the 90's, as well
as the
smaller version of their "mario bros" pinball (Mushroom world IIRC)
Don't know if it was intended for redemption or simply a "kid sized"
version of a regular pinball).
They are on IPDB.
Were they successful ?
Anyone here ever operated / played / owned one and like to comment ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> -cody
> --CARGPB4
> [Note: Following any advice given in this message
> may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
> Follow advice at your own peril.]
>
> "kreed" <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
frenchy
limit on the max that could come out during one game or something.
One screwy switch causing false scores and kids could figure that out
and empty the dispenser real quick if the dispensing was set
liberally. I'd settle for the game spitting out one ticket for 1
play, and one more ticket for achieving the first replay, or similar
goal. Maybe some locations do this already but I haven't seen it (or
even any pins with redemption crap in the first place!)
cody chunn
> kids. Until they get around their pre-teens, most don't have the hand/
> eye coordination, patience or height for pinball. There are exceptions
> and I'm not suggesting anyone stop recruiting the kids. Kids can have
> a blast playing pinball for short bursts, but they sure as hell ain't
> gonna 'save' pinball.
>
> -phish
This is a very short-sighted opinion. Kids absolutely were a terget audience
in arcades. Kids the same age that used to go to arcades now go to ticket
play-centers. The kids haven't changed, the venue has, and now accomodates
even younger players.
When we were kids there were pins everywhere: convenience stores, 7-11s,
drug stores, theaters, arcades. We had exposure to games that were simple
enough to walk up to them and immediately understand what you wanted to
smack the ball into to get a replay. For many of us this developed into a
lifelong affinity.
Now, pins are hardly anywhere, and if a kid finds one to play, they have no
idea how to and no incentive either.
So the industry continues to fail to cultivate new generations of players.
This can only result in one eventuality: the industry dies.
Kids are the future of *all* industries. Denying this is delusional.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
[Note: Following any advice given in this message
may result in property damage, minor injury, serious injury or death.
Follow advice at your own peril.]
"Jonny O" <jonny...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e9a0801d-3800-4702...@w19g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
phishrace
> > The other thing you're missing is that pinball has never been aimed at
> > kids. Until they get around their pre-teens, most don't have the hand/
> > eye coordination, patience or height for pinball. There are exceptions
> > and I'm not suggesting anyone stop recruiting the kids. Kids can have
> > a blast playing pinball for short bursts, but they sure as hell ain't
> > gonna 'save' pinball.
>
> > -phish
>
> in arcades. Kids the same age that used to go to arcades now go to ticket
> play-centers. The kids haven't changed, the venue has, and now accomodates
> even younger players.
>
> When we were kids there were pins everywhere: convenience stores, 7-11s,
> drug stores, theaters, arcades. We had exposure to games that were simple
> enough to walk up to them and immediately understand what you wanted to
> smack the ball into to get a replay. For many of us this developed into a
> lifelong affinity.
>
> Now, pins are hardly anywhere, and if a kid finds one to play, they have no
> idea how to and no incentive either.
>
> So the industry continues to fail to cultivate new generations of players.
> This can only result in one eventuality: the industry dies.
>
> Kids are the future of *all* industries. Denying this is delusional.
No, not the same age. The 'kids' playing all those games in arcades
and 7/11's were mostly teenagers, with a few pre-teens and adults
sprinkled in. Not 6 and 7 year olds.
The ticket arcades popping up now are targeting those 6 and 7 year
olds. They have short 'games' with a quick payoff. That's all most
young kids can handle. Once a kid reaches 12 or 13, they have the
patience and coordination needed for pinball.
Stern does target teenagers, but it's done stealthily.
"We basically think we have two markets, two demographics in America.
25 year olds in the bars, plus or minus five years and 45 year olds,
plus or minus 5 or 10 years, who are buying games for the home.
They're raising a whole new crop of players because now they're 12 and
15 playing in Dad's rec room and when they're 21, or 19 with a phony
ID, they're going to the bar playing our games."
http://sternpinball.com/PR_about.shtml
While Stern may not be actively recruiting teenagers and youngsters,
the hobby is doing a great job of it. More and more new shows and
tournaments are being added every year. Most tournaments have a
juniors divisions. Tournament organizers go to great lengths to reward
the kids with trophies and other trinkets because they know that these
kids are the future of pinball.
http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/rockymountain2009/21.jpg
http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/ukpinballshow2008/47.jpg
http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/stockholmopen2008/index_image006.jpg
-phish