Premier is CLOSED
Outlane
Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
BUSINESS
I am now looking for a job.
Jon Norris
Jeff Anderson
HOLY SHIT! what the hell is going on here? Williams laid off half their
staff last Thursday.
How much longer is SEGA gonna be around?
Jonathan N. Deitch
In article <4rvnv9$a...@stratus.skypoint.net>,
Jeff Anderson <Mayd...@Skypoint.com> writes:
>out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:
>>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>>BUSINESS
>
>HOLY SHIT! what the hell is going on here? Williams laid off half their
>staff last Thursday.
Good Grief ... who at WMS got the axe ? Isn't this the SECOND round of
layoff at WMS ? A lot of their designers got the axe the first time
around (and a lot of GOOD ones, IMHO) ...
(sniff ... no more roller coaster games ...)
>How much longer is SEGA gonna be around?
I don't know. The above is NOT a good sign.
- Jonathan
--
jde...@gsu.edu | "I Hate it when I can't trust | Atlanta 1996 !!
jde...@worldnet.att.net | my own technology!" - LaForge | Play Pinball !!
http://www2.gsu.edu/~musjnd |-------------------------------------------------
---------------------------- "Thrills! Chills! Magic! Prizes!" - Hurricane
Roddenberry, Asimov, Henson, Dr. Seuss, Mel Blanc, Friz Freleng ... Sigh ...
Scott Piehler
out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>BUSINESS
>I am now looking for a job.
>Jon Norris
Well, this had been buzzing around the rumour mill for a little while.
Sorry to see it actuallly come to fruition. Condolences to Jon and all
the other employees. Damn shame to see the great name of Gottleib
leave us (again).
For the record, does this mean Barb Wire was the last Premier/Gottleib
pin?
So this leaves:
A greatly downsized WMS. Steve Ritchie gone. Design teams:
(rumor/guesswork)
Lawlor
Gomez
Eddy
Popadiuk (maybe)
SEGA-apparently healthy. Very deep pockets from the parent firm.
Getting good licenses. Turning out better & better games. Designer of
Goldeneye (Pemberton) out of the biz.
Capcom-can they make it? Mark Ritchie apparently senior designer. I
like the idea of The Capcom Classics line. Idea-buy the name of
Gottleib and use it for the Classics line.
The pity of it is this: Just as the industry produced what appears to
be one of the all time greats (AFM), this happens.
Perhaps quality over quantity will save the day.
Scott
Scott Piehler- Atlanta, GA
A list of newer pins in the Atlanta area can be found at
http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/pinball.htm
Rob Rosenhouse
Scott Piehler (ros...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: A greatly downsized WMS. Steve Ritchie gone. Design teams:
: (rumor/guesswork)
More rumor - Since WMS is closing the recently aquired ATARI, perhaps
their talent, including Richie will end up in Chicago again.
Only time will tell....
Rob
Dave Edson
> Jeff Anderson <Mayd...@Skypoint.com> wrote in article
> staff last Thursday.
Now, wait a minute here. We all know why Gottlieb went outta biz. Play
their games! The only one I liked is Big Hurt. As for Barb Wire,
Waterworld, Mario-- they all were passed up by players. Look at the "Top
15 pinballs" thread on this forum-- WMS has the top 8 or so earners. How
many arcades have more than 3 pins? Not many, so you can expect any
machine living at #9 to have very limited exposure.
The buzz on this forum has consistently been anti-Gottlieb, and pro WMS.
WMS is scaling back right now, but they are not going outta biz. If they
were really smart, they would build another 5000 AFM machines, since the
first run seems to be completely sold out. And charge 4 grand for them
instead of 3600.
As for SEGA, well, the buzz here seems to be that they are getting better.
I'll go play ID4 as soon as it appears. They have deep pockets, and if
they keep working at it, and they listen to people's gripes on the forum
here, they have a great chance of succeeding. One thing I can say about
the SEGA games is that they don't seem to break-- all of the SEGA machines
I have seen are in good working order. I dunno if that is good design, or
if it's because of low game play. But A13 gets lots of play, and I have
not seen any broken ones.
Dave Edson, da...@microsoft.com
-+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+- -+==+-
>>The opinions here are 100% Dave Edson's, and 0% Microsoft Corp's<<
"Partial Linkup"
"All Hands Prepare for Multiball!"
"Shoot for Center Field!"
"No time for Tea, Blast Those Martains!"
Robert McCann
>The buzz on this forum has consistently been anti-Gottlieb, and pro WMS.
>WMS is scaling back right now, but they are not going outta biz. If they
>were really smart, they would build another 5000 AFM machines, since the
>first run seems to be completely sold out. And charge 4 grand for them
>instead of 3600.
WMS is lowering prices, not raising them. The high costs is what is hurting
the pinball industry. Pinball's simply can't earn as much as video games,
it's not possible. And when a new pin costs nearly as much (in some cases
more) than a new video game most operators don't want them. The only way pin
can survive is to keep prices down so that operators will get interested.
Believe me, if AFM cost 4 grand, it would NOT have sold well.
>As for SEGA, well, the buzz here seems to be that they are getting better.
>I'll go play ID4 as soon as it appears. They have deep pockets, and if
>they keep working at it, and they listen to people's gripes on the forum
Where do you get this from? Sega's video division has deep pockets, but the
pinball division is something seperate. In fact, Sega pinball is severely
underfunded. Sega has not put in the money that it will take for Sega pinball
to be able to get up the level of WMS. Hopefully they will realize this
sooner or later and decide to give the pinball's some money.
Look at me, defending Sega! Go fig...
I do hope that they ARE able to bring the quality of their games up to the
same level as WMS, it's just that without money they simply can't. I hope
they don't go the way of Premier/Gottlieb, but I don't think they will.
--
Bob McCann = "Let's go Red Wings!
mcca...@pilot.msu.edu = Let's go Red Wi.....
www.msu.edu/user/mccannr1 = ...oh....*sigh*..."
Let's play some PINBALL!! = -- Me
vquon
Not saying that I'm happy about the news but history is repeating
itself. Remember?!: Those that forget the past are destined to repeat
it. Atari, Coleco, etc. gave way to today's Sega, NEC, and Sony in video.
I just recently played a brand new Goldeneye. Found it to be quite
nice and the quality seemed good. Innovative (perhaps) satellite ball
capture. And made by Sega.
American companies focussing on quarterly profits rather than long
term goals? Maybe! But it seems that the American companies are once
again going to give way to the Japanese companies. Maybe we should
blame Equity investors for all this.
V.Q.
Shawn K. Quinn
On 10 Jul 1996 00:48:52 -0400, Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>BUSINESS
>
>I am now looking for a job.
Flame me if you will, but that is truly a sad thing. Especially since the last
Gottlieb pin I've seen was R911. I have heard of a Stargate around here but
never saw it.
Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
really like to see the others too.
SKQ
Michael Burke
[sigh]
ros...@mindspring.com (Scott Piehler) wrote:
>out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:
>>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>>BUSINESS
>>I am now looking for a job.
>>Jon Norris
Sorry to hear this news. I was hoping for one of those merger rumours
to come true.
>So this leaves:
>A greatly downsized WMS. Steve Ritchie gone. Design teams:
Where has he gone?
>(rumor/guesswork)
>Lawlor
>Gomez
>Eddy
>Popadiuk (maybe)
~~~~~~~~
Really?
In another post it was said half the Williams staff were laid off last
week. Who were the unlucky ones?
>Capcom-can they make it? Mark Ritchie apparently senior designer. I
>like the idea of The Capcom Classics line. Idea-buy the name of
>Gottleib and use it for the Classics line.
It was NOT the best of times to start up a pinball company, I wonder
how long they will last. Even though I will probably never see one of
there classics pins (not in this country anyways), I had always
thought it was a good idea.
>The pity of it is this: Just as the industry produced what appears to
>be one of the all time greats (AFM), this happens.
>Perhaps quality over quantity will save the day.
Pinball will never die (yes I know - I did start one of those Pinball
is dying threads last year, but I was generally talking about pinball
in New Zealand) as it has proven to us before in the past.
Unfortunately on the down times, it takes a lot of people with it. :(
[sigh]
Mikey
michae...@welcom.gen.nz < Play pinball > * * 1946 - 1996 * *
mbu...@voyager.co.nz < Play pinball > 50 years of Williams pinball
Wellington, New Zealand
David B. Stewart
Robert McCann (mcca...@pilot.msu.edu) wrote:
: >The buzz on this forum has consistently been anti-Gottlieb, and pro WMS.
: >WMS is scaling back right now, but they are not going outta biz. If they
: >were really smart, they would build another 5000 AFM machines, since the
: >first run seems to be completely sold out. And charge 4 grand for them
: >instead of 3600.
: WMS is lowering prices, not raising them. The high costs is what is hurting
: the pinball industry. Pinball's simply can't earn as much as video games,
: it's not possible. And when a new pin costs nearly as much (in some cases
: more) than a new video game most operators don't want them. The only way pin
: can survive is to keep prices down so that operators will get interested.
: Believe me, if AFM cost 4 grand, it would NOT have sold well.
Doesn't WMS charge less than $2K per machine, and the rest of the price
is the markup by the distributors?
In any case, giving the axe to three designers is not necessarily the
downfall of pinball, and, if things are done right, it could be the
rejuvination of pinball.
WMS has been having really low production runs lately. Despite coming out
with 6 to 8 machines a year, all we've seen around here is maybe 3 or 4
of them. Operators don't buy them because they don't think they will make
money. And in many cases, I agree with them.
If the scaling back means half as many different machines will be designed,
that's fine by me since half the machines were lousy anyways. And if you
look at the designers let go (Oursler and Trudeau), I'm sure that WMS
was losing money with their machines. I do have to question why Nordman
was let go .. he designed some of my favorite machines!!! (WhiteWater and
DemoMan).
If WMS concentrates their money on less design teams, but gives them more time
and money to come out with better quality games, which in turn results in
longer production runs for each game, then it is a very positive move.
Ultimately, since there are less different new machines, operators might
purchase all of them; and since they are of better quality, operators will
start making money on them, encouraging them to buy even more new machines.
As it is now, it is a gamble for them to buy a machine like Congo ... and
sometimes they don't have a choice, as the distributors pull tricks like "you
only get as many AFMs as you buy Congos". The scaling back of WMS design
teams may in the long run fix lots of these problems.
The question I have is whether there was any scaling back on the production
lines. If not, then the potential for building just as many new machines is
still there. The difference will be instead of making 5000 of each junk
(and perhaps one or 2 good) machines, they will make 10000 of each machine,
but all machines will have much better quality than the current ones.
So I'm hoping that WMS letting these designers go is a smart economics
decision, and that they take advantage of it to turn the pinball industry
back into the black.
Dave
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Stewart "http://www.ee.umd.edu/~dstewart/"
- If you live in Baltimore-MD/Washington DC area, come play with the
FSPA at Howies in College Park every Tuesday Night, 7:30pm-9:30pm,
or join one of our new leagues in Northern Virginia or Towson Maryland.
Scott Piehler
skq...@brokersys.com (Shawn K. Quinn) wrote:
>On 10 Jul 1996 00:48:52 -0400, Jon Norris <out...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>>BUSINESS
>>I am now looking for a job.
>Flame me if you will, but that is truly a sad thing. Especially since the last
>Gottlieb pin I've seen was R911.
>Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
>really like to see the others too.
Last night on IRC (irc.citenet.net, 9pm, channel #pinball), Keefer
noted that Capcom was in severe trouble. Rumour has it that Breakshot
had a production run of between 170 and 300 machines.
If that's the case, can they survive? If they want to spend the money,
all these recent events seem like a heck of an opening for Sega.
Scott
Scott Piehler
<Ros...@mindspring.com>
http://www.mindspring.com/~rosco29/home.htm
Clive Jones
In article <4rvcnk$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Jon Norris <out...@aol.com> writes;
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT
OF
>BUSINESS
This is very, very sad news, I *truly* hope someone bails Gottlieb out -
I'm speechless........
Clive (with a tear in his eye.....)
English Lord and Squire of property.....<c.j...@sni.co.uk> - okay yar?
Chris Hehman
skq...@brokersys.com (Shawn K. Quinn) writes:
> On 10 Jul 1996 00:48:52 -0400, Outlane <out...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
> >BUSINESS
>
> Flame me if you will, but that is truly a sad thing. Especially since the
> last Gottlieb pin I've seen was R911. I have heard of a Stargate around
> here but never saw it.
Stargate was the best Premier/Gottlieb by a large margin, IMHO. I actually
enjoyed the Glidercraft targets and some of the funky multiball sequences.
It had its failings, of course (mostly with its inscrutable rules), but
all in all it was at least a decent game. Not that I would go buy one, but
I'd play it every so often if there was one nearby.
While out of town I've had the opportunity to play Waterworld and
Mario Andretti, and I can confidently say I'm not disappointed that
they haven't appeared locally.
As for whether Gottlieb going under is a Bad Thing, I'm undecided. I
can't say that I'm upset that the latest and greatest Gottlieb/Premier
game won't be showing up any more. It would be a shame if the Gottlieb
name is no longer used to sell pinballs, but historically speaking,
it wouldn't be the first time if it were to be resold and resurrected
someday in the future...
> Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
> really like to see the others too.
Anyone know what about Capcom?
There's a Breakshot near me, and it's an unusual experience. It combines
the layout of an EM with modern components, and has a very distinctive feel.
The rules take a little getting used to as well. Somebody posted an
excellent Quick Take a while ago, but I can't seem to find it now.
--Hehman
Bill Ung
"Dave Edson" <da...@microsoft.com> writes:
|> Jeff Anderson <Mayd...@Skypoint.com> wrote in article
|> HOLY SHIT! what the hell is going on here? Williams laid off half their
|> staff last Thursday.
|> How much longer is SEGA gonna be around?
|
|Now, wait a minute here. We all know why Gottlieb went outta biz. Play
|their games! The only one I liked is Big Hurt. As for Barb Wire,
|Waterworld, Mario-- they all were passed up by players.
Such a shame, too. Gottlieb/Premier did have a couple games that
did okay, and they got some pretty good feedback here on the 'net,
too. Somehow, though, I'm not sure much of it made it back into
their games. Williams/Bally has implemented a considerable number
of issues talked about here on r.g.p. (ie: delayed start-button
game reset). I'm not sure about Data East/Sega...
|As for SEGA, well, the buzz here seems to be that they are getting better.
|I'll go play ID4 as soon as it appears. They have deep pockets, and if
|they keep working at it, and they listen to people's gripes on the forum
|here, they have a great chance of succeeding.
I can tell you that Sega, or at least, one or two Sega employees DO
listen. I've gotten a couple notes, specifically about my gripes
about the Sega sound system. Right now, they don't make enough games
to justify the kind of sound system Williams is using. One can only
hope that they get that fixed sometime soon. I'm still of the opinion
that Stereo Sound is typically lost on a pinball game. I'd much
rather have the midrange/tweeter setup that Williams has, for better
quality sound output, instead of relatively muddy stereo sound.
|One thing I can say about the SEGA games is that they don't seem to
|break-- all of the SEGA machines I have seen are in good working order.
|I dunno if that is good design, or if it's because of low game play.
|But A13 gets lots of play, and I have not seen any broken ones.
I've seen TWISTER at Southern Hills Golfland turned off. It's
had its share of problems, but not significantly better or worse
than the Williams/Bally games in the same environment.
--
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com
HIGH SPEED: "Dispatch this is 504, suspect got away."
EARTHSHAKER: "Ooohhh, bitchin!!"
WHITEWATER: "Dang, lost another one!"
ELVIRA: "Let's Boooogie!!!"
Mike Minchew ii
Scott Piehler- Atlanta, GA writes:
>Well, this had been buzzing around the rumour mill for a little while.
>Sorry to see it actuallly come to fruition. Condolences to Jon and all
>the other employees. Damn shame to see the great name of Gottleib
>leave us (again).
>For the record, does this mean Barb Wire was the last Premier/Gottleib
>pin?
>So this leaves:
>A greatly downsized WMS. Steve Ritchie gone. Design teams:
>(rumor/guesswork)
>Lawlor
>Gomez
>Eddy
>Popadiuk (maybe)
>SEGA-apparently healthy. Very deep pockets from the parent firm.
>Getting good licenses. Turning out better & better games. Designer of
>Goldeneye (Pemberton) out of the biz.
>Capcom-can they make it? Mark Ritchie apparently senior designer. I
>like the idea of The Capcom Classics line. Idea-buy the name of
>Gottleib and use it for the Classics line.
>The pity of it is this: Just as the industry produced what appears to
>be one of the all time greats (AFM), this happens.
>Perhaps quality over quantity will save the day.
Had e-mail conversation with John Popadiuk this morning and he says that
he will be at Wms for a long time. Also said that the upcoming games
should be really good, even though fewer titles.
Basically the impression that I got was that he felt that Wms, while
scaling back, was still very much staying with the pin biz.
Mike Minchew
Plano, TX
Bill Ung
ros...@mindspring.com (Scott Piehler) writes:
|
|So this leaves:
|
|A greatly downsized WMS. Steve Ritchie gone.
Well, I think we knew Steve was getting tired of the pinball world.
I hope he comes back someday, though.
|Design teams:
|(rumor/guesswork)
|Lawlor
|Gomez
|Eddy
|Popadiuk (maybe)
I don't see why they wouldn't keep Popadiuk.
But what about Barry Oursler? It would be a shame to cut him loose
just when he's re-hitting his stride (ie: WHO dunnit).
And Dennis Nordman? I'm still hoping he's working on Scared Stiff.
Dennis has a pretty decent track record, too. Better than Gomez?
|Perhaps quality over quantity will save the day.
Or, if we're at all lucky, a combination of both. Southern Hills
Golfland is still the best place to play games, yet most of the
games that show up there almost *never* show up anywhere else in
Orange County. I've only seen *one* Johnny Mnemonic, maybe four
Road Show games, *two* AFM games, *two* WHO dunnit games ... you
get the idea.
Basically, I remember the days when I could run into HIGH SPEED,
CYCLONE, EARTHSHAKER, WHIRLWIND, and even ELVIRA in a dozen or
so places around Orange County. The new games were coming out
entirely too fast for people to keep up. Hopefully, if things
slow down a bit, more of the same game can get out to more places,
and thus, generate a following and allow players to really
develop a fondness for a game.
Joel Iott
In article <4rvcnk$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Outlane wrote:
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>BUSINESS
>
>
I'm very sorry to hear that Premier has closed.
I greatly enjoyed games such as Stargate, Cue Ball Wizard, and older
ones like Genesis (I bought one!).
I'm also sorry to hear about the downsizing at Williams.
It's a sad time for pinball. I really hope the remaining pinball
companies can find SOME way to make money. If more cost savings like no
speaker panel art or simulated knockers are required, then so be it.
I would rather see a reduced feature game than no new pinball games.
--
Joel Iott
Evan Wessel
I was wondering how Premier was able to hang on as long as they did. The
last full price Gottlieb we bought was "Street Fighter" 3 years ago. The
games are ok, but not great earners. The hardware was the best in the
business and always had been.
Sega's tech support is excellent. The biggest problem is not having an
automatic replay level adjustment. It has to be manually done when the
game is turned on. This is a serious shortcoming as they never seem to be
percentaged correctly and by the time I get to them, players are turned
off. Our Goldeneye at factory pitch and settings was awarding only 1%
score replays after 2 weeks on location. This is a major shortcoming.
Pinball is cyclical and will come back. This is a definite.
--
Evan Wessel, (Prop.), Mercury Amusement CO, Havertown PA, USA
Greg Gibson
On 10 Jul 1996 00:48:52 -0400, out...@aol.com (Outlane) wrote:
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>BUSINESS
>
>I am now looking for a job.
>
>Jon Norris
>
Although Gottlieb/Premier hasn't created the most memorable games of
the past few years, I will miss them a great deal. I could usually
find some fun game play in nearly all of the games that they produced
in their final year, and got a great deal of enjoyment from their
games in the mid-80's.
The Gottlieb brand name will be dearly missed from the pinball
industry.
------------------------------------------------------+
Greg Gibson | Find your favorite pinball in |
greg_...@thq.com | Southern California ... visit |
gre...@ix.netcom.com | http://www.netcom.com/~greggg |
Dave Grossman
Scott Piehler (ros...@mindspring.com) wrote:
:
: >Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
: >really like to see the others too.
: Last night on IRC (irc.citenet.net, 9pm, channel #pinball), Keefer
: noted that Capcom was in severe trouble. Rumour has it that Breakshot
: had a production run of between 170 and 300 machines.
Speaking of which, does anyone know that production run numbers for Airborne?
It seems to have come and gone (seeing as how Big Bang Bar is already out
and is not a Classics game...) and I never even saw one... Not even at
the Broadway Arcade (unless it was there and gone so quick I missed it...)
I remember hearing about problems with its design, but it *was* finished,
wasn't it?
-Dave
--
Dave Grossman | "Life's short...
Geneseo State University| Play pinball"
de...@geneseo.edu | "It has to warm up,
tf...@j51.com | SO IT CAN KILL YOU!" -TAF
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WWW: http://www.j51.com/~tfth -- pinball, music, and more.
* FEC/Games Specialist -- Contact me for references.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kim Scheinberg
out...@aol.com (Outlane) deserves a Nobel for
>Today, Tuesday July 9, Gottlieb officially closed its doors and is OUT OF
>BUSINESS
Shit
>I am now looking for a job.
But this is the true tragedy. I'm very sorry to hear it Jon
-k.
Kim Scheinberg
mcca...@pilot.msu.edu (Robert McCann) deserves a Nobel for
>
>WMS is lowering prices, not raising them. The high costs is what is hurting
>the pinball industry. Pinball's simply can't earn as much as video games,
>it's not possible. And when a new pin costs nearly as much (in some cases
>more) than a new video game most operators don't want them. The only way pin
>can survive is to keep prices down so that operators will get interested.
>Believe me, if AFM cost 4 grand, it would NOT have sold well.
I'm not sure I agree with that last statement. It seems like *many* AFM's
found their way into homes where earnings aren't the real issue
And with the shortage. I've heard stories of people paying over retail to
get their hands on one. One friend claims to have paid $4200 for his here
in California.
-k.
Stephen Jonke
In article <9607111956.AA91258@bob>, u...@filenet.com wrote:
>I'm still of the opinion
>that Stereo Sound is typically lost on a pinball game. I'd much
>rather have the midrange/tweeter setup that Williams has, for better
>quality sound output, instead of relatively muddy stereo sound.
Absolutely. I've long felt this way and wish that Sega would dump the
"stereo" sound. It just doesn't work. They can improve the sound quality
dramatically by dumping stereo and going with higher quality monophonic
sound. It would probably cost less too.
Steve
--
Seen in computer peripheral ad: "User-friendly dip switches!"
Tom Boucher
I'm really new at this but based on the 30-40 games I've played
the variations in both engineering and manufacture seem to be
less critical to the success of a game than the graphics.
IF and I repeat IF that is the case, is it perhaps the license
fees that are causing the difference between success and
failure? After all, a successful company is making 12-16% after
taxes and a failure is making something less than 12%. The
delta is not all that much and if the license fees are taking
anywhere in the neighborhood of 5-8% it could be the difference.
From a true novice,
Tom
David Gersic
In <01bb6e85.e447b130$a269389d@davee>, "Dave Edson" <da...@microsoft.com> writes:
>> Jeff Anderson <Mayd...@Skypoint.com> wrote in article
>> HOLY SHIT! what the hell is going on here? Williams laid off half their
>> staff last Thursday.
>> How much longer is SEGA gonna be around?
>
>Now, wait a minute here. We all know why Gottlieb went outta biz. Play
>their games! The only one I liked is Big Hurt. As for Barb Wire,
As a side comment to this, I hadn't *seen* a Gottlieb game in years until
last week. I found two Stargate machines in San Diego (more on SD pinball
later) and re-discovered what I didn't like about them: I can't stand their
flippers. They just don't "feel" right. The Williams and Capcom games on
either side of the Gottliebs got my quarters.
======================================================================
The packet goes out the card, into the copper, out the router,
onto the fiber, across the world, thru the copper............
NOTHING BUT NET.
David Gersic dge...@niu.edu
Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University
John J. Hemmer (J.J.)
>
>Flame me if you will, but that is truly a sad thing. Especially since the
last
>Gottlieb pin I've seen was R911. I have heard of a Stargate around here but
>never saw it.
>
>Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
>really like to see the others too.
>
>SKQ
>
Capcom went through a rather large layoff back in January. They let go alot
of production people and about 1/3 of their engineering staff. The president
Michael Stroll has left the company for reasons I am not sure. It appears as
if they got a little above their head financially.
You might want to get a pin from them before they go out of business -- It
might be a good collectors item.
Bill Ung
Stephe...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Stephen Jonke) writes:
|In article <9607111956.AA91258@bob>, u...@filenet.com wrote:
|
|>I'm still of the opinion
|>that Stereo Sound is typically lost on a pinball game. I'd much
|>rather have the midrange/tweeter setup that Williams has, for better
|>quality sound output, instead of relatively muddy stereo sound.
|
|Absolutely. I've long felt this way and wish that Sega would dump the
|"stereo" sound. It just doesn't work. They can improve the sound quality
|dramatically by dumping stereo and going with higher quality monophonic
|sound.
Actually, now I've been informed by the good folks at Sega, that
Stereo is gone for the foreseeable future. Twister, in fact,
only has one speaker (plus the woofer), which is a higher quality
midrange than before. We'll have to see how it fares in this and
future games (I'm still not that fond of Twister sound, but it's
accurate to the movie).
|It would probably cost less too.
Apparently, it does. The savings, I'm told, come more from the
electronics (ie: amp) than the speaker itself.
Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
panzek
David Gersic wrote:
>
> In <DuF3r...@news2.new-york.net>, tf...@smtp.j51.com (Dave Grossman) writes:
> >Scott Piehler (ros...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> >:
> >: >Anyone know about Capcom? I've seen only the first Capcom game, and would
> >: >really like to see the others too.
> >: Last night on IRC (irc.citenet.net, 9pm, channel #pinball), Keefer
> >: noted that Capcom was in severe trouble. Rumour has it that Breakshot
> >: had a production run of between 170 and 300 machines.
>
> was sitting next to an Airborne, and a Pinball Magic (more on those two in
> a later post).
>
> >Speaking of which, does anyone know that production run numbers for Airborne?
> >It seems to have come and gone (seeing as how Big Bang Bar is already out
> >and is not a Classics game...) and I never even saw one... Not even at
> >the Broadway Arcade (unless it was there and gone so quick I missed it...)
> >
> >I remember hearing about problems with its design, but it *was* finished,
> >wasn't it?
>
> play was confusing. Those that like habitrails and ramps should like this
> game, though.
>
> ======================================================================
>
> The packet goes out the card, into the copper, out the router,
> onto the fiber, across the world, thru the copper............
> NOTHING BUT NET.
>
> David Gersic dge...@niu.edu
> Systems Programmer Northern Illinois University
I THINK CAPCOM PUTS OUT A GOOD VARIETY OF GAMES BREAKSHOT IS A CLASSIC
TYPE GAME THAT IS EASY TO PLAY AND HAS SOME HARD SHOTS FOR THOSE WHO ARE
REAL PINBALL PLAYERS. AIRBORNE IS FOR THE PLAYERS WHO LIKE RAMPS AND
WIREFORMS (LIKE ME :)) PINBALL MAGIC IMHO IS ONE OF THE ALL TIME BEST
PINS. I DO REALIZE THAT THIS IS JUST AN OPINNION AND WE ALL HAVE ONE.
THANKS FOR LETTING ME SHARE MINE WITH YOU.
p.s. THIS IS MY FIRST TIME RESPONDING TO THIS GROUP.
Dave Grossman
Bill Ung (u...@filenet.com) wrote:
:
: Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
: Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
This is pretty much what I've been wondering while following the thread.
Did any of these DE/Sega games actually have any stereo "effects"?
i.e. did sound ever move from the left to right speakers (we all know how
cool it is to have headphones on when music switches sounds between your
left and right ears :) )
I figure if they ever botherd, i wouldn't know...since unless you're in
your house playing the game w/ no other sounds, you're just not going to
notice *at all*
-Dave
--
Dave Grossman | "Life's short...
Geneseo State University| Play pinball"
de...@geneseo.edu | "It has to warm up,
tf...@j51.com | SO IT CAN KILL YOU!" -TAF
-----------------------------------------------------------------
WWW: http://www.j51.com/~tfth -- pinball, music, and more.
Vote for my page this week at Housernet! http://www.housernet.com
Keith Johnson
>Bill Ung (u...@filenet.com) wrote:
>:
>: Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
>: Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
THe only thing I've distinctly heard is during the bonus count on BTTF.
When "lightning" goes across the 2 displays, you can hear one blast from
the left and one from the right.
There are probably many others, but I'd wager most of the time you don't
notice or can't notice them because you're paying too much attention to
the game. There's nothing going on but bonus count on BTTF, so it is
certainly a prime time to make such effects noticable.
keith
--
Keith P. Johnson, keeper of rec.games.pinball DynaFAQ
Tuesday nights, College Park, MD @ 7:30 - FSPA pinball league night.
Your mother has so many teeth missing, it looks like her tongue is in jail.
Bill Ung
dste...@Glue.umd.edu (David B. Stewart) writes:
|If the scaling back means half as many different machines will be designed,
|that's fine by me since half the machines were lousy anyways. And if you
|look at the designers let go (Oursler and Trudeau), I'm sure that WMS
|was losing money with their machines. I do have to question why Nordman
|was let go .. he designed some of my favorite machines!!! (WhiteWater and
|DemoMan).
I, myself, questioned the Nordman layoff. Then again, thinking about
it, from an economic standpoint ... was Nordman such a brilliant
designer? I love Elvira, but they didn't make so many (lord knows
why, though). Whitewater, again, is a *great* pin ... but with a
relatively low production run. Why? Perhaps his pins were just too
deep for the average player. I, myself, didn't catch onto Whitewater
till really reading the rulesheet and *knowing* all the possibilities.
The rest of his W/B games, Dr. Dude, Party Zone, Demolition Man,
Indianapolis 500 ... how many had long runs? Not Indy500. Dunno
about Dr. Dude, Party Zone or DemoMan.
In other words, as cool as his games may have been, perhaps he
just wasn't bringing in the sort of cashflow that the company
needed. Economically, you'd have no choice...
|The question I have is whether there was any scaling back on the production
|lines. If not, then the potential for building just as many new machines is
|still there. The difference will be instead of making 5000 of each junk
|(and perhaps one or 2 good) machines, they will make 10000 of each machine,
|but all machines will have much better quality than the current ones.
That's certainly a good question. I'd be interested to know the answer
to that one, too...
|So I'm hoping that WMS letting these designers go is a smart economics
|decision, and that they take advantage of it to turn the pinball industry
|back into the black.
Me too. Time, will tell.
Steve Baumgarten
kre...@netgate.net (Joshua Lehan) writes:
I *really* liked the start of Multiball on TAF. After all the lights
start blinking, you hear *boom* *boom* *boom* *boom*, left right left
right, and the two lightning-bolt strobes on the playfield alternate
with the speakers being used. TAF definetly had stereo sound, and
used it well.
No WMS game has ever had stereo sound. However, there are frequency
differences between the speakers, and this can make certain sound
effects sound like they're in stereo.
I believe DE/SEGA games have been in stereo since day one, even prior
to the BSMT 2000 system they use on current games. Premier games,
like WMS games, have never been in stereo.
I'm not sure about Capcom games; if I had to guess, though, I'd say
that they weren't in stereo, if only because I can't remember ever
hearing any stereo sound effects. But that's just a guess -- perhaps
someone with more technical knowledge of the games could say for
sure.
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
PANIX, New York, NY | remember, we were way ahead of you."
|
Email: s...@panix.com | - David Letterman
Joshua Lehan
Bill Ung <u...@filenet.com> wrote:
> Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
> Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
I *really* liked the start of Multiball on TAF. After all the lights
start blinking, you hear *boom* *boom* *boom* *boom*, left right left
right, and the two lightning-bolt strobes on the playfield alternate
with the speakers being used. TAF definetly had stereo sound, and
used it well.
Also, when the ball kicks out of a scoop, you hear the sound effect
coming from the left (Electric Chair) or right (Swamp), letting you
know where the ball will be coming from. Also, the appropriate
lightning-bolt strobe on the playfield flashes, so this is also a
visual cue. Very helpful.
This, while being a neat feature, doesn't add all that much to the
game though. I'd rather see the feature go, and operators save some
money (translation: buying more pinball machines, because with a lower
cost comes a higher ROI), than having stereo sound on an overpriced
machine.
Josh
______
\Josh/ Lehan
\ / mailto:jle...@phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu
\/ http://phoenix.csc.calpoly.edu/~jlehan/
Andrew Dudinsky
Is there any chance that they will be dumping games cheap??
David Gersic
Steve Baumgarten
tf...@smtp.j51.com (Dave Grossman) writes:
This is pretty much what I've been wondering while following the
thread. Did any of these DE/Sega games actually have any stereo
"effects"? i.e. did sound ever move from the left to right
speakers (we all know how cool it is to have headphones on when
music switches sounds between your left and right ears :) )
During the heyday of the BSMT 2000, yes, DE/SEGA games did indeed have
noticeable stereo effects. However, conditions really had to be ideal
in order for you to hear them -- which meant that, for the most part,
no one ever really noticed.
I would have traded stereo effects for better overall sound any day;
in fact, this is pretty much the tradeoff WMS made when they designed
DCS. It's not a stereo system, like DE/SEGA's, but the overall sound
is much better. And more important, it's noticeably better under
nearly all conditions.
Steve Baumgarten
Bill Ung <u...@filenet.com> writes:
Actually, now I've been informed by the good folks at Sega, that
Stereo is gone for the foreseeable future. Twister, in fact,
only has one speaker (plus the woofer), which is a higher quality
midrange than before.
Yes, I noticed that the quote "EVERYBODY UNDER GROUND NOW!" comes
through clear as a bell. A noticeable improvement over the old days,
when you had to strain to make out "SHOOT THE TRANSPORTER!".
:-/
Bill Ung
kre...@netgate.net (Joshua Lehan) writes:
|Bill Ung <u...@filenet.com> wrote:
|
|> Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
|> Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
|
|I *really* liked the start of Multiball on TAF. After all the lights
|start blinking, you hear *boom* *boom* *boom* *boom*, left right left
|right, and the two lightning-bolt strobes on the playfield alternate
|with the speakers being used. TAF definetly had stereo sound, and
|used it well.
This is *almost* true.
TAF has mono sound, as do all Williams/Bally games (to the best of
my knowledge, anyway), save for some prototype Road Show games, I
believe.
The idea is (and I'm sure others can say this better) that the
midrange/tweeter separation allows certain sounds to be pumped
through the left and others through the right, but the source
audio track is still only one channel.
|Also, when the ball kicks out of a scoop, you hear the sound effect
|coming from the left (Electric Chair) or right (Swamp), letting you
|know where the ball will be coming from. Also, the appropriate
|lightning-bolt strobe on the playfield flashes, so this is also a
|visual cue. Very helpful.
Sounds like clever audio programming. I'll have to pay more
attention, next time I see a TAF game...
|This, while being a neat feature, doesn't add all that much to the
|game though. I'd rather see the feature go, and operators save some
|money (translation: buying more pinball machines, because with a lower
|cost comes a higher ROI), than having stereo sound on an overpriced
|machine.
Well, you may (or may not) be happy to know that these are not
stereo machines. In fact, at the moment, nobody appears to be
making stereo pinball machines, unless Capcom is.
Geoffrey A. Middleton
John J. Hemmer (J.J.) wrote:
>
> >
> >Flame me if you will, but that is truly a sad thing. Especially since the
> last
> >Gottlieb pin I've seen was R911. I have heard of a Stargate around here but
> >never saw it.
> >
> >really like to see the others too.
> >
> >
> Capcom went through a rather large layoff back in January. They let go alot
> of production people and about 1/3 of their engineering staff. The president
> Michael Stroll has left the company for reasons I am not sure. It appears as
> if they got a little above their head financially.
>
> You might want to get a pin from them before they go out of business -- It
> might be a good collectors item.
We had a Stargate at Morehead State University.
However, the vendor's contract is over and it's
gone. I knew this guy personally and he told me]
that premier was about to go down. They (Premier)
have produced a "BARB WIRE" Machine this year,
but I don't know if it will be out. One Possible
reason that Premier is CLOSED and that CAPCOM Pinball
has laid off some of their employees probably can be
the fault of NEWT and his Motley Crew of Dickhead's
Corporate Welfare (Or Corporate WARFARE) Concept.
If this was the case of Capcom's loss of workers and
Premier's closing? They have committed an unpardonable
sin against the religion of Pinball.
The Urotsukidoji Fans,
Cyberpunk One and Dark One
Pinball is a religion. Worship It!
Bill Ung
tf...@smtp.j51.com (Dave Grossman) writes:
|Bill Ung (u...@filenet.com) wrote:
|:
|: Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
|: Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
|
|Did any of these DE/Sega games actually have any stereo "effects"?
|i.e. did sound ever move from the left to right speakers (we all know how
|cool it is to have headphones on when music switches sounds between your
|left and right ears :) )
I'm told Back to the Future had some pretty cool effects. Lightning
animations + playfield lights + music, sychronized to follow one
another. I've rarely played BTTF and mostly listen for audio cues,
as opposed to stereo separation. I guess it's another I'll need to
investigate more, next time I run into a BTTF game.
|I figure if they ever botherd, i wouldn't know...since unless you're in
|your house playing the game w/ no other sounds, you're just not going to
|notice *at all*
Well, in the time I've played, I've never really noticed stereo sound
so I'd have to fully agree with you. Perhaps this is why Sega finally
called it quits on the Stereo sound.
Marty Chamberlain
> panzek <pan...@wwa.com> wrote in article <31EB21...@wwa.com>...
>
> I THINK CAPCOM PUTS OUT A GOOD VARIETY OF GAMES BREAKSHOT IS A CLASSIC
> TYPE GAME THAT IS EASY TO PLAY AND HAS SOME HARD SHOTS FOR THOSE WHO ARE
> REAL PINBALL PLAYERS. AIRBORNE IS FOR THE PLAYERS WHO LIKE RAMPS AND
> WIREFORMS (LIKE ME :)) PINBALL MAGIC IMHO IS ONE OF THE ALL TIME BEST
> PINS. I DO REALIZE THAT THIS IS JUST AN OPINNION AND WE ALL HAVE ONE.
> THANKS FOR LETTING ME SHARE MINE WITH YOU.
>
> p.s. THIS IS MY FIRST TIME RESPONDING TO THIS GROUP.
Welcome to the group! JUST STOP SHOUTING!!!!!! ;)
Michael Burke
tf...@smtp.j51.com (Dave Grossman) wrote:
>Bill Ung (u...@filenet.com) wrote:
>:
>: Just as a general query ... are there *any* pinball games where
>: Stereo sound has made a dramatic difference?
>This is pretty much what I've been wondering while following the thread.
>Did any of these DE/Sega games actually have any stereo "effects"?
>i.e. did sound ever move from the left to right speakers (we all know how
>cool it is to have headphones on when music switches sounds between your
>left and right ears :) )
Although I have haven't played many games on Sega/DE pins, I did
noticed on Baywatch that the helicopter had nice panning effects from
the left to right speaker (or whatever). There were other stereo sound
effects too, but the helicopter was the one that really "stood out".
Mikey
michae...@welcom.gen.nz < Play pinball > * * 1946 - 1996 * *
mbu...@voyager.co.nz < Play pinball > 50 years of Williams pinball
Wellington, New Zealand
Daina Pettit
In article <31EC61...@kymtnnet.org>,
Geoffrey A. Middleton <cybe...@kymtnnet.org> wrote:
>One Possible
>reason that Premier is CLOSED and that CAPCOM Pinball
>has laid off some of their employees probably can be
^^^^
>Corporate Welfare (Or Corporate WARFARE) Concept.
Sorry to call out the internet spelling police, but you mispelled Clinton.
;^)
Actually, blaming plant closures and layoffs on the government is an old
trick. This is a favorite mantra of labor unions. A business cannot ignore
costs greater than revenues indefinitely. If the products don't sell, or
cannot compete in the marketplace then the products cannot continue. It's
amazing to me that Chicago Coin/Stern and Gottlieb/Premier lasted for as
long as they did. If a company is not competing well then layoffs are a
fact of life.
Rec.games.pinball has been a good group free of flames for a most of the time.
Let's keep it that way and KNOCK OFF the political rhetoric! If you want to
talk about market forces and good vs. shoddy products, that's fine, but
don't get into name-calling and politics.
--
Daina Pettit=da...@xmission.com, voice:(801)277-6296 fax&message:(801)277-0888
http://www.xmission.com/~daina UNIX Consulting (Salt Lake City, Utah)
I am Mr. Pinball--sales, repairs, & The Flipper Pinball List!
Scott Snadow -GTE Directories- 214-453-7727
> One Possible
> reason that Premier is CLOSED and that CAPCOM Pinball
> has laid off some of their employees probably can be
> the fault of NEWT and his Motley Crew of Dickhead's
> Corporate Welfare (Or Corporate WARFARE) Concept.
Usenet has those various 'bots that run around and cancel binary files
posted to non-binary groups (we've all seen this occasionally on rgp);
too bad nobody's developed a 'bot yet to zap such obvious trolling!
ObPinball: Finally found an AfM in Dallas, at the UA theatre on
Central Expressway & Park Lane. $0.50/game, $2/5; and FOUR balls per
game, even though the instruction card said three balls. . .wonder if
the operator inadvertently set it to four and didn't realize it?!
Game was in good shape, though it had a "dot" after the credit
display. Having *never* seen an AfM on location before, I couldn't
figure-out what the machine thought was broken. One drawback: That
arcade is LOUD! Very difficult to hear those great AfM quotes.
Scott
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Scott Snadow, Former Californian. I wasn't born in Texas, |
| but I got here as fast as I could! |
| scott....@gtedc.gtedcaa.gtedchq1.sprint.com |
| (Yes, even E-mail addresses are bigger in Texas!!) |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Alan Whittle
In <1996Jul17.081045.1@eisner> sna...@eisner.decus.org (Scott Snadow
-GTE Directories- 214-453-7727) writes:
>
>In article <31EC61...@kymtnnet.org>, "Geoffrey A. Middleton"
><cybe...@kymtnnet.org> writes:
[heavily snipped]
>
>ObPinball: Finally found an AfM in Dallas, at the UA theatre on
>Central Expressway & Park Lane. $0.50/game, $2/5; and FOUR balls per
>game, even though the instruction card said three balls. . .wonder if
>the operator inadvertently set it to four and didn't realize it?!
Nope.
It takes effort to set the game for four balls. You can't do it by
accident.
The price card says 3 balls on one side and 5 balls on the other.
Fortunately there is quite a bit of static charge on the clear plastic
that covers the price card. If you make a "4" on a bit of scrap paper
it stays in position quite well. I did this on my AFM.
/Alan
Eugene Gershtein
Bill Ung <u...@filenet.com> wrote:
>The rest of his W/B games, Dr. Dude, Party Zone, Demolition Man,
>Indianapolis 500 ... how many had long runs? Not Indy500. Dunno
>about Dr. Dude, Party Zone or DemoMan.
As far as I can tell, Demolition Man was a huge production run. I see
them at almost every arcade I go to and there are always several at
the monthly auctions in Toronto (outnumbered only by Judge Dredds and
Rocky and Bullwinkles). As for the others, I've seen one of each
once.
>In other words, as cool as his games may have been, perhaps he
>just wasn't bringing in the sort of cashflow that the company
>needed. Economically, you'd have no choice...
Well, judging by the thread on production runs, it seems that they're
basically random guesses. It's not his fault if the company is too
shortsighted to produce enough units of his games to get a return on
the investment.
Eug
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Eugene Gershtein |
| e...@citenet.net |
| |
| http://www.citenet.net/users/eug (home of the Toronto Area Pinball List) |
| http://www.flight642.com (The World's Aviation Connection) |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/