State of pinball at the local Chuck E Cheese (kinda long)
Robert Winter
some games after pizza so the older one could get some tickets and walk
out with a 10 cent toy...
So we're there playing these redemption games and they've got a decent
POTC that's been there for a while. Actually in pretty decent
condition. I noticed the game's sitting there with a game started, Ball
1, no score, and a couple of credits. I play a ball as my kids get some
tickets from the game next to it. Again, it plays decently but my kids
run off so I follow them and let the ball drain and leave the game in play.
Fast forward to 5 minutes later. We're playing another redemption game
but I can see the POTC. I now notice a 4 player game has been started,
ball 1, player 1, 3 credits on the machine and NO ONE around it. So I
joke to the wife about how no one (especially kids) understands pinball
because there's basically 7 unplayed games on this thing.
As I'm saying this, someone (not a kid) walks up to the machine, puts in
a token, presses the start button (nothing happens because there's
already a 4 player game started) looks at the playfield for a few
seconds like they're waiting for something to happen on its own, then
when no tickets come out of the game, they shrug their shoulders and
walk away!
First off, kinda wish I had the time to play those 8 games (my POTC is
currently stored) but I'm there for my kids. Secondly, it's sad to see
how there's almost no comprehension for some people of how a pinball
game works. Granted, most of those credits might have come from young
kids doing what I witnessed a 20-something doing, but it's still
sobering to say the least.
At least my 5-year-old daughter recognized the game - "Hey Daddy, we've
got one of those!"
Robert
-----
http://www.robertwinter.com
AddictedToEMs
mods for their POTCs, but I never closed the deal. Maybe this is an
insight to why they didn't proceed.
frenchy
how there's almost no comprehension for some people of how a pinball
game works. Granted, most of those credits might have come from young
kids doing what I witnessed a 20-something doing, but it's still
sobering to say the least. >>
The kids I could understand, they are used to shoveling money into
these lame redemption crap machines, then not doing anything, and
waiting to see if they won some tickets so they can get a Spongebob
pencil eraser after investing $25 of dad's money. The adult doing
that - he is just a plain idiot if he can't comprehend the use of a
plunger and flipper buttons.
Mickey Johnson
redemption machine. This kids expect the ball to be auto plunged and then
only play one ball. Thats really how they should be setup in that
environment. The truth is a a normal game of pinball is way way way (did I
say way enough) too long of a game in a redemption enviroment. You want to
get the times down to about 30 secs and then kick the tickets out.
this is actually one of pinballs biggest flaws as far as not evolving with
its in enviroment. No one cares about score anymore, because the game should
be good enough that you don't care about score, its about completing goals
and seeing a reward for those goals.
"Robert Winter" <ne...@robertwinter.com> wrote in message
news:7muufnF...@mid.individual.net...
metallik
> get the times down to about 30 secs and then kick the tickets out.
>
> this is actually one of pinballs biggest flaws as far as not evolving with
> its in enviroment.
You just described Ticket Tac Toe perfectly. And yet operators didn't
buy it...
Todd
I see the same thing at arcades in AZ. Kids just do not have the
patience for pinball and they lose interest as soon as the ball
drains. If they can somehow get to the good parts of the game faster,
then they will get hooked.
Spiderman for example, I initially didn't like it because most of the
places that have one are in bad shape and something just doesn't work
right. Also, I could never get more than 5 to 10 million on a game, so
I decided I didn't like the game....Until I learned how to play. Now I
can average 40 to 50 million each game with ease because I have a
better understanding of the rules. For kids to casually play one game,
it would be very hard to get them hooked, unless they really like the
theme and took the time to learn how to play. I think to many non-
RGPers, pinball is just hitting a silver ball around with no skill or
strategy. If they understood the rules and the need to aim, I cannot
see why someone would not get hooked on pinball.
Todd
phishrace
You guys need to spend as much time as you can showing the kids how to
play. POTC and Spidey are great instructional games. When kids crowd
my game, I let them. Hands on the glass, whatever.
I also change strategy when this happens. Now it's all about putting
on a show. On Pirates, sink the ship ASAP. Kids love it. One kid who's
watched me more than once eventually started telling his buddies what
was going to happen next. 'Watch, he's going to sink the ship!' It's a
lot of pressure, but a lot of fun too seeing the kids eyes when the
ship sinks.
On Spidey, keep hitting Doc Ock to get a multiball going. If they're
young enough, their eyes and brain have trouble deciding on which ball
to watch, which can be pretty damb amusing to watch.
Finally, hand off the game once you think they have a feel for what's
going on. Doesn't matter what ball you're on or how many credits are
on the game, just hand it over. They're kids and we need to recruit
them hard. The only real instructions you need to give them is to take
turns. Then, just walk away knowing you did your job as a pinball
recruiter/ ambassador. Feel free to brag here later.
-phish
Rare Hero
played many video games let alone a pinball. They picked it up SO
fast! Seriously -within 30 min, they were even controlling the ball a
bit....and clearly aiming. They TOTALLY got it.
Some pics:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2031435&id=1487267285&l=29b5d34b8d
Greg
Stephen
black featureless soda machine sort of design. No balls. No flippers.
Just a coin slot and a ticket dispenser. Well. Ok. Maybe one light
(LED mod-able!). The customer just has to use one hand to feed a token
into the machine, while using the other to rip the little row of ten
tickets off of the dispenser.
Game? What game?!?! I thought you wanted 5,000 tickets for a pencil
sharpener.
Brian Smith
> Yeah, in that environment, a pinball machine looks like a complicated
> redemption machine. This kids expect the ball to be auto plunged and then
> only play one ball. Thats really how they should be setup in that
> environment. The truth is a a normal game of pinball is way way way (did I
> say way enough) too long of a game in a redemption enviroment. You want to
> get the times down to about 30 secs and then kick the tickets out.
>
> this is actually one of pinballs biggest flaws as far as not evolving with
> its in enviroment. No one cares about score anymore, because the game should
> be good enough that you don't care about score, its about completing goals
> and seeing a reward for those goals.
>
Surprised they haven't gone to $.25 a ball on autoplunge in an
environment like that... might do well.
And us adults at least can still get a 3 ball game for our $.75
We really have to come up with something to save pinball, the same
old thought process is just not working anymore :(
Sad to say.
goatdan
Because it sucked as a redemption game too?
I worked at two redemption arcades, and there was no way in heck TTT
would have worked as a better than average earner in either one of
them. And one was a CEC.
As for pinball needing to be shorter and just spit out tickets,
seriously? How good does everyone think that redemption arcades are
doing right now? I'll give you all a hint -- it isn't as good as they
used to be. With the continued closing of stand alone arcades, and
Chuck E Cheese doing it's bold (stupid) experimentation when I worked
for them (learn about it in December's issue of GameRoom Magazine!
Not kidding!), redemption games aren't selling like they used to
either. If you don't remember, Stern made a Simpsons redemption title
(used some of the same pieces as the pinball machine) and I think a
Titanic redemption machine. Both of which did decently for the
redemption world, but considering that Stern hasn't put their own name
on one in a while, I think you can draw your own conclusions.
The redemption market works totally different than the pinball /
arcade market. Redemption arcades don't necessarily need new gams to
attract players, they need games people recognize, and things that
work really easily. The biggest earner that we had at BOTH Chuck E
Cheese and the other FEC I worked at was Cyclone. Put the coin in,
press the button to try to stop it right in front of you on Jackpot
and win tickets, one ticket per token played building up to some sort
of crazy numbers. The FEC's second biggest earner was some game that
I was about 10 years old. CEC's third biggest earner was a game that
I played when I used to go there as a kid. Dino-Score, if anyone
remembers it.
New redemption machines come out and they don't sell briskly at all,
instead you have to sit on your inventory and sell it a little at a
time. Usually, redemption arcades only replace their machines at the
end of the life cycle of an earlier machine, and if you have something
that is already a proven earner at the few places you have the game
in, you have the machine they want. If your machine failed to excite
people, you have to clearance off the remaining stock at really low
prices. Or you try to build only as the market dictates, and you can
have months where you only send 10 machines down the line.
Pinball machines are NOT like redemption machines at all. The reason
that CEC added them to most locations was because they experimented
with a STUPID attempt to cater to 2-4 year olds when I was there, and
trashed (with sledge hammers) all of their old, classic video arcades
and replaced them with games for two year olds. Well, the older
siblings declared Chuck E Cheese stupid, and without anyone begging
them to go (2 year olds don't know what Chuck E Cheese is), parents
avoided it too. The pinball machines, as well as a bunch of arcade
machines, were brought in to attempt to appeal more toward parents and
teens, although it was too late for the teen market.
It was one of the largest mistakes that arcade operators made in the
last 10 years, and it has hurt the whole industry.
Josh Lehan - Krellan
> Yeah, in that environment, a pinball machine looks like a complicated
> redemption machine. This kids expect the ball to be auto plunged and then
> only play one ball. Thats really how they should be setup in that
> environment. The truth is a a normal game of pinball is way way way (did I
> say way enough) too long of a game in a redemption enviroment. You want to
> get the times down to about 30 secs and then kick the tickets out.
Well said. I've been lobbying for a very simple "kid's pinball" game
that would be almost stupidly simple, but bounce the ball around and
happily spit out tickets. Here's a post I made, way back in 1996:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/e0a080dd07e9108/517027bf0e8828f2
Gottlieb almost had it right then, with mini-sized "almost pinball"
games such as Bell Ringer. I remember several arcades keeping Bell
Ringer around for many years, long after they dumped all their other
pinballs.
Only change to my "Bumperball" idea that I'd make since the original
post, is an optional autoplunger, the way DE did it then (and Stern
does it now). If player does nothing for one second after the ball is
served to the plunger lane, the ball would get autoplunged. So, the
player need do nothing but put in their coin, and wait for the
tickets. If the player wanted to try a little skill, there would be a
small little window of opportunity for them to plunge the ball
themselves and try to aim the shot. Oh, and since it's now 13 years
later, I'd replace all the lights with LED's :)
Josh
DugFreez
to a lot of younger people. I'm going to be using Spider-Man and
Cyclone in a lot of these examples because that is what I have and
what I know.
I think one thing is because a pinball machine is asking someone to
use their imagination. It doesn't mater if it's a Surf Champ, Space
Shuttle or White Water...the game is asking you believe you are doing
something other than just flipping a ball around. If they were not
attempting this, pins wouldn't have different themes...they would just
be pinball themed and be called "Pinball 423" or something like that.
I think newer games do a better job of helping this illusion with more
elaborate toys, sound and DMD displays, but think about what a stretch
that is compared to what modern video games do. Here comes my Spider-
Man example. Compare Spider-Man (Stern 2007) with Spider-Man: Web of
Shadows on the Xbox 360. Sure both are asking the player to use their
imaginations to put themselves in Spider-Man's shoes. Which do you
think you would have to use your imagination more? One you are hitting
buttons to flip a ball and the other you are hitting buttons and
wiggling a stick to change a picture on your TV screen. Both need you
to use your imagination....but the video game has the visuals and
sound to help you along. Asking a kid to defeat Sandman by hitting him
with a silver ball doesn't make as much sense to them as handing them
a controller and telling him that the x button punches and he can
actually see Spider-Man beating on him.
I give the newer pins the edge over the older pins when it comes to
helping someone believe in the theme of the game, but I also think
newer pins are also partially to blame for alienating part of the
younger crowd. I think newer pins can be so "deep" and complex that
they scare away any new players. Take a look at the score cards for an
older game vs a newer game. With an older game you could actually look
at the score card and what was written on the playfield and audio cues
on some games and understand pretty quickly what you were supposed to
hit. Most newer games are so deep, complex and rule heavy that to walk
up and understand what you are supposed to do is nearly imposable for
a non player. I think that most pin enthusiast tastes for games and
their complexity has been ramped up over years of playing. If you were
a youngin' in 1985 and had never played a pinball machine before and
someone through a Twilight Zone down in front of you and a Duck Hunt
machine next to it....I'm betting most people would walk away from the
confusion of TZ and go for the Duck Hunt. I see this a lot at my place
with the Spider-Man next to the Cyclone. My Cyclone gets more play
because it's simple and easy to understand. "Ride the Ferris Wheel"
"Ride the Comet" it's all right there. Depth and complexity is good
for a home machine...but for the casual player...not so much. Keep in
mind these pins they see at CEC are quite possibly the first pins they
have ever seen. Even a kid friendly theme like Shrek is complicated.
I've played it and Family Guy a couple of times...and I still don't
know what I'm supposed to be shooting for.
I think that's all I have. I think video games and the complexity of
modern pins is what scares new young players away. I also believe that
pinball 2000 might have helped to bridge these gaps if it was given
the proper chance before the plug was pulled on it. I'm not saying it
was the way to go in the eyes of the collector / enthusiast, but to
snag new players...it had a lot going for it.
CornCob
FWIW, Nordman was working on a Spiderman redemption game when he was
layed off. Thats probably one reason you've not seen one since. I
asked at the electrocoin stand, atei last year when they were still
selling the simpsons redemption. they said it was a good a seller and
went on about the license. the pictures i've seen of spiderman
redemption look as good as their previous attempts (IMHO).
Ping
Jonny O
> This has got me thinking about whypinballin general doesn't appeal
> to a lot of younger people. I'm going to be using Spider-Man and
> Cyclone in a lot of these examples because that is what I have and
> what I know.
[snip]
I don't believe it's the level of depth that is the problem in newer
pins for younger people. Many video games today have rule sets that
are 100x deeper than any pin.
The difficulty of keeping the ball in play and the learning curve are
issues, among others. While pinballs don't have particularly deep
rule sets compared to video games, they are likewise far less
effective in conveying those rules. Video games have tutorial modes,
practice modes, progressively more difficult levels, objectives, etc.
Pinball has a paper card, an extremely archaic and tiny DMD, playfield
lights (which are sometimes poorly programmed and other times burnt
out) and sounds, which may also be poorly programmed or not audible in
some cases. Some games - pinball magic comes to mind - penalize you
with a poorly timed kickout while looking at the DMD to try and figure
out what your next objective is or the result of your shot.
Pinball games are in many ways synonymous with what we video gamers
call "die and retry". Die and retry games are those that don't give
you enough information to succeed, so the only way to progress is to
try something, which usually kills you, and cross that off the list of
possibilities. Then you try something else, die again. Rinse/repeat
until you finally find the correct strategy. This is tedious and no
fun. Modern gamers expect more.
Pinball isn't nearly as bad as die and retry video games because the
act of hitting, catching, bumping, etc are such fun. I'm just trying
to make the point that pins do a very poor job attracting and
educating.
Jonny O
Well, consider what you get on a pinball machine - a replay. It's all
for entertainment. That cheap little keepsake is just a little
reminder of the fun time you had.
Redemption games were simply a logical extension of slot machines.
There is nothing more mindless than pulling a handle over and over
(and most redemption games require a lot more thought than that). If
they can convince the adult population to do that, they knew they
could convince kids to do the same.
Likewise, the earliest pinball games were little more than that. Pull
the plunger and wait for the outcome.