History:
This playfield is from a 1984 Williams Space Shuttle that I purchased
from Dave Astill (Toronto). It was mylared, which I removed as it was
pitted and beyond buffing.
Touchups were nothing major:
Area north of pop bumpers (about 1 square inch total).
Repainted the two ball locks areas with acrylic paint.
Small touchups here and there:
http://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/playfield2.htm#touchups
Condition:
There are small areas that were not covered by mylar that have ball
swirls that do not come out.
In areas that were mylared one can see fine surface crazing, which may
be normal for 20yr old paint:
http://www.edcheung.com/dropbox/clean1.jpg
No detectable issues with inserts using strong light under playfield:
http://www.edcheung.com/dropbox/clean.jpg
Environment:
A dozen plays a week max expected (novelty has worn off with the kids).
It is in my dry basement, so no UV, near constant temp and humidity.
Cons of clearcoat as far as I can tell from past RGP articles:
-Cannot touchup or improve once sealed.
-Long term (>10 years) ageing unknown. Once done, it is on forever.
-Costs money ~$300
-Some clearcoaters need to have bottom stripped of parts. Right now,
lamps and harness on bottom.
-Shipping can be risky (damage, loss)
-May affect value negatively for some people. Clearcoat can be added
later, but not removed.
-Risk (low) of technical problems during process that lead to visible
defects later.
Pros of clearcoat as far as I can tell:
-Brings out the darker colors as it fills in the tiny cracks that
difract light.
-Hard layer seals and protects existing paint from further damage.
-Makes playfield shiny and glossy. Many consider that very beautiful.
My priorities (from high to low):
1) Don't cause damage to this playfield. I may never get another one
like this again.
2) Enhance the beauty of the playfield.
3) Preserve the paint as I intend to keep this machine a long time.
Questions:
1) Do you agree with my pros and cons
2) What would YOU do if you were in my shoes?
Right now, based on all the posts I have read, I think I can just use
several coats of wax to accomplish my priorities, and I am inclined
against clearcoating, but I seek advice on how to proceed. Thank you
very much.
Edward Cheung
--
Josh
http://www.pingeek.com
Pinball dvds for sale online and at The York Show, 10/7 - 10/8,
http://www.theyorkshow.com
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote in message
news:1127957367....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Nice job so far. I'm not a big fan of acrylics, but you seem to have
them under control. If you try to use acrylics for any larger areas
it's practically impossible to prevent brush marks even with the drying
extender. But if you want to go auto clearcoat, you don't have a
choice.
I think you ought to think about Varathane. Obviously you have the
painting skills to handle it. While I have always used spray varathane,
I have seen a couple jobs done by Gregg B. AKA PinDude here where he
poured liquid Varathane from the can on quite heavily and let it
self-level and the excess run off. Very impressive results. No thin
spots, thats for sure. Durability? Lifetime, in my estimation. But even
if you go the spray route, you'll find you can get the results you
want, i.e., protection, durability, glossy beauty. The problem with wax
alone is as soon as it wears off, which is quicker than one might
think, if your balls are not perfectly clean then you are wearing the
PF, guaranteed. Especially in high wear areas. If you don't want to
worry about it ever again but dont want to spend big bucks having
someone else auto clearcoat it, then Varathane it yourself. Also, as
Clay says, the Varathane could be removed if you absolutely wanted to
WITHOUT destroying the underlying PF. You can't say that about auto
clears. They will bond with the colors forever.
A couple of tips- wet sand the PF with 1000 grit wetordry and Novus 1
as your liquid. The Novus 1 is less reactive with touchups and the
original paints than water or anything else. If you've got a primo
surface to begin with, than you won't need a whole bunch of coats,
maybe three. One $7 can of Varathane will do the light first coat and
the subsequent two thick ones. #1-it will make your inserts look like
new again, even ones where the original surface has broken through to
the printing. #2 - you won't have to worry about shipping (which is
expensive and can damage the PF) #3 - guess what-you CAN touchup and
improve whenever you want, all you have to do is spray on some more
Varathane to encapsulate the repairs.
Done right, Varathane is tits. Done wrong, varathane is dimples.
Dimples might be cute on little girls, but for me, I like big girls
(and big tits) so Varathane right and everyone will admire your PF just
like they admire a nice pair of tits. Trust me, it's not difficult, and
the payoff is huge. (almost like a tit job, but a lot cheaper)
you say: May affect value negatively for some people.
and then you add
3) Preserve the paint as I intend to keep this machine a long time.
so you don't care about "some people" ... you want to game for yourself
so just DO IT :)
another "depreciated clearcoat" that I intend to keep forever:
http://mrhide.pinnesota.org/gallery/pinbot
Phil
Hey I started with varathane too. on totan !
shooting 8 coats with a can is a pain... waiting 60 days to play it
another.
shooting 3 coats of autoclear and playing the game after a week is a
big plus.
Each work very well IMO.
Reason 1: It's your game. You're keeping it to enjoy. You want it to look
it's best and preserve it.
Dilemma solved.
It would be silly not to clearcoat it. You've >>>SUCCESSFULLY<<< removed
the mylar (congratulations a thousand times over- you're a better man than
I), and to play on that virgin playfield surface is sacrilige- clearcoat
that puppy. Especially while you've got all the parts torn off of it and
it's nearly ready for clearcoat anyway.
Next, don't skimp at this point- use the *good* clearcoat- DuPont Chroma
Clear 7600S or Imron- something commercial, catalyzed, and that will last
and do you well. This is not the time for Varathane (when is it time for
Varathane? Oh yes- anything Gottlieb <ducks tomatoes>).
If you're not up to the task, employ someone who is- local auto-body shop,
or send out to Bill Davis, etc.
To me, cost is not an issue on stuff like this- if the game/field is in good
enough condition to even consider coating it, then you've got a good
candidate and I recommend pressing forward- ignore cost at that point. It's
an all-or-nothing deal- don't skimp on anything after you've made the
decision to clearcoat- otherwise you will regret it- both the costs invested
and the lower-quality of the finished (skimped) job. Keep the quality up,
despite cost. It's worth it.
More comments:
> There are small areas that were not covered by mylar that have ball
> swirls that do not come out.
> In areas that were mylared one can see fine surface crazing, which may
> be normal for 20yr old paint:
Mr. Clean Magic Eraser will help with both of these issues- I'd recommend
this treatment, then full cleaning, then prep for clearcoat. The idea prior
to clearcoat is to get the field as nice as you will ever want it to be-
touchups, cleaning, etc. Then seal it "for all time and eternity" with
clearcoat.
> Cons of clearcoat as far as I can tell from past RGP articles:
> -Cannot touchup or improve once sealed.
But that's the idea- you're sealing the field and preventing any wear/damage
to it. Again, get it as nice as you will ever want it *before* you
clearcot, then clearcoat it- seal the deal.
Now, you can in fact touch something up after clearcoating if something
happens- oversight, or wear, or damage- if you don't put a *ton* of
clearcoat on the field. A lot of clearcoat isn't really necessary- Williams
and Stern use very little on their fields, and they do hold up relatively
well in the commercial environment. Most of us in the hobby prefer a bit
more clearcoat- it looks good and really adds protection- but don't go
crazy. Make it 2 coats or 4 at maximum and that will be thin enough that
you can wet-sand down or spot repair/re-clearcoat if the need arises.
> -Some clearcoaters need to have bottom stripped of parts. Right now,
> lamps and harness on bottom.
I think if you're sending this out to be done, most anyone will want it
stripped- at this point whats another couple hours of work? If anything,
it's also a chance to clean the bottom of the field and those parts. ;) I'd
strip it, or see if you can at least bundle it all up and seal it off, and
of course plug up all the holes on the top side so the clearcoat doesn't get
into lamp sockets or through open holes into wiring, etc.
> -May affect value negatively for some people. Clearcoat can be added
> later, but not removed.
Depends on how well it's done- a good job will increase the value. Put
varathane on it, brush your material on (instead of spray) or otherwise do a
shoddy job, and yes- you've decreased the value of the game.
Keep in mind, too, that "wear" can be added later but not removed- if the
field isn't clearcoated. You're clearcoating to prevent wear.
Realize also, that a lot of "factory" fields were clearcoated, yet we can
continue to restore, and re-clearcoat those. So if you don't "over do" the
clearcoating (as mentioned above), then you're really not doing anything
more than turning your Space Shuttle field into a "Diamondplate" field, effe
ctively. Just like the factory did on later games.
I don't know what the issue would be with the lamp inserts as you mentioned
regarding Chris Hutchins- unless it's the fact that later games had a
tighter margin between the insert and playfield whereas older games did not-
this can leave a gap after clearcoating, but if you're having someone do the
clearcoating that knows what they're doing, this isn't a problem- can be
handled properly so there's no problems with it. I've shot lots of fields-
old and new- and if you know what you're doing and take the time to do it
right, it can be done and done well.
The one thing about leaving the field uncoated and "waxing" it as you go-
while that is fine and good practice- is that wax will stay in any
microscopic cracks or defects in the field, and dry white, making those
cracks and defects all the more noticeable. Very unappealing- I've had
fields that we've cleaned, polished, and buffed, then threw on some wax,
only to see all the microscopic details come to painful visibility.
Clearcoat will prevent that.
Good luck!
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote in message
news:1127957367....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Pass up the ground round and go for the steak.
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"deafdumb&blindboy" <ildu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1127959871.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
(If you know what you are doing.)
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
======================
Just my pick!
Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
"Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message
news:1128010980.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You should be able to get Cattleman's steak sauce at your local grocery
store BTW
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
>
--
Dave Mercer
For Amusement Only
943 Butte Pass Dr
Fort Collins, CO 80526
970-282-8282
970-223-2372 fax
Paypal payments can be made to
pay...@foramusementonly.to
Please visit our website for your pinball needs
http://www.foramusementonly.to
What do you think they would do if you asked them to do your repro AFM
playfield with verathane (aka mop & glow). They'd probably say your
nuts!
Auto clear is the way to go if you ask me....
Karl.
Oh yeah! Heading for the Mangy Moose in Jackson WY in a week or two for one
of their baseball-cut sirloins and Canadian beer on tap. Best steak in the
country! I'll send you a pic, Dave!
7-1/2 months to Cattlemens!
BTW- Avoid Stuart Anderson's Black Angus. Wife and I went there about 3-4
years ago and it was fantastic, but visited last week for our anniversary
and it was terrible- shoe leather disguised as a New York strip- I can get a
better steak at a local "family restaurant" run by Vietnamese refugees. And
horrible service, too. Lobby smelled like they had a sewer leak going on-
nasty. Avoid avoid avoid...
Tastebuds still recovering but prognosis positive (everything currently
tastes like chicken)...
ROTFLMAO! Good one!
That was one of the best ideas I've read on the
group in quite some time.
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
===========================
It was developed to be a more marketable name for the balance of the
t-bone steak after the filet and bone were removed. Rumor has it, that
development was undertaken in Kansas City which I tend to believe since
my Grandfather was in the livestock business for 60+ years.
Mike Doyle
Fact: Varathane is formulated for - HELLO!- WOOD!
Dupont Imron and Chromaclear is formulated for cars.
Fact: My pins look drop dead gorgeous under Varathane and show no signs
of wear. I *have* seen what auto clears look like after a few ball
drops. Not all, mind you, but some have had spiderwebbing where the
balls dropped from a wireform ramp. The autoclear was too thick and
brittle. This may be more a function of the mix or the application but
suffice to say I have never seen this on my Varathaned games.
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
> Without going into excruciatingly long drawn-out detail, I'm painfully
> against Varathane. To suffice, why eat a burger when you can have steak?
> This kind of work is not the place to cut corners or skimp- on cost or
> quality- it all pays off in the end.
>
> Pass up the ground round and go for the steak.
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
>
--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
I knew it!!!!!!!!! :)
>
> That was one of the best ideas I've read on the
> group in quite some time.
LOL, you crack me up Fred!
>
> Fred
> TX
> CARGPB#8
> ===========================
Have fun, Karl.
:>)
Otto
CARGPB11
My web page: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-Ottoslanding
"Fred Kemper" <pbga...@davlin.net> wrote in message
news:1128026329.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
At this point, I have thought things over, and have ordered two cans of
Varathane. That will give me some more days to ponder things over.
However, if I look at my pros and cons, I think the Varathane will be
my best bet. It is probably removable with a solvent such as Goof Off,
does not require me to ship the playfield out, and will give me the
gloss and new look that I would like (but last longer than wax and not
show the cracks).
I like dd&b boy's idea of using Novus 1 as the sanding fluid as I did
not want to use water, and thought Naphtha would just evaporate too
fast. From previous posts, the playfield will be horizontal, and then
I spray in the width direction with overlapping strokes. My first pass
will be very light, and then I will probably only put down 2 full
coats. So not too thick.
I just ordered the #200081 Varathane from doityourselfwarehouse.com, I
hope they don't follow up in a few days with "no stock".
I also learned how a thread can go from clearcoating a pinball
playfield to good/bad steak restaurants 8-).
Edward Cheung
Wow, So scary when you read it closely.
Karl.
Edward Cheung
Sorry to rain on your parade Mr. Cheung and I'm sure the verathane will
also look much better than it is now.
I guess it's me, but after the touch ups I go to a local body shop and
(for about $50), just have them shoot it, no big deal. V. seems like
such a lesser job on such a rare PF, again maybe just me. I shouldn't
be insulting about it but I did my space shuttle this way (Mesa Bruce
clearcoat, search google for process) with alot more touch up than I
planned on and it still came out looking and playing better than new.
Very fast and smooth.
I'd be happy to email you a few pics, just do it as best you can
especialy prep.
GodSpeed whith the PF restore, it is IMO the most fun and rewarding
part of this hobby.
Karl.
Well said.
Be diligent
> but not heavy handed with the sanding,
But do still sand very well, you want to sand away the yellowed varnish
layer as much as possible without going into the color/ink. It takes
several hours and about 3 or four sheets, two wet and last two dry. It
really wakes up the whites and colors, Or do you mop & glow guys not do
this either?!!! :) Do the last sanding with 600 wet/dry using it dry so
surface has more roughness.
Then take to body shop, oh sorry, get out the wonder mop! :)
Stampeding heard signing out,
Karl.
And hamburger IS ground steak: Even better
as you don't have to chew as much....
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"beaver" <e...@edcheung.com> wrote
So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
>
> And hamburger IS ground steak: Even better
> as you don't have to chew as much....
I like to make large thin patties, by the time they cook and shrink
they are just right. A burger with red wine mushroom gravy and swiss
golden melted on top is another great way to enjoy them.
Have fun, Karl.
I was utterly disappointed in Ray Johnsons statement disrespecting those
of us who use Varathane and the product itself. I consider him a friend
and his remarks won't change that but I was totally blindsided by his
post. He himself has seen at least one of my restored games and noted
how beautiful it was. That was at least 3, maybe 4 years ago? And you
know what? It's still as beautiful today with absolutely NO signs of
wear. Bah.
You don't like Varathane, Karl? Great! Tell the world you don't like it
and move on. But please, calling it mop and glow is disrespectful to
those of us who happen to know what the hell we are doing. Those
statements would imply you think we are stupid for using a product
designed for the application. Now, how dumb is that? See the statement
you made below? A blanket statement. Why? What is your point? Is it your
intention to create an "us vs them" atmosphere? To what end? Do tell.
Karl wrote:
> So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
> layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
>
>
> Have fun, Karl.
No disrespect intended, Cliffy, although some of my comments this last week
have been a little "firey"- necessarily or unnecessarily- I've seen your
games and you do fine work and I certainly can't knock it one tad. I'm just
not swayed by Varathane- not the product of my personal choice. I've seen a
lot of botched Varathane jobs and "misuses" which have probably tainted my
opinions of it, but screw-ups can be done as easily with anything else too.
Keep those shiny games going!
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
>
> No disrespect intended, Cliffy, although some of my comments this last week
> have been a little "firey"- necessarily or unnecessarily- I've seen your
> games and you do fine work and I certainly can't knock it one tad. I'm just
> not swayed by Varathane- not the product of my personal choice. I've seen a
> lot of botched Varathane jobs and "misuses" which have probably tainted my
> opinions of it, but screw-ups can be done as easily with anything else too.
> Keep those shiny games going!
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
No and I'm sure your work is great just by knowing you here in the
group. No question. The protectors and other the things you've done to
help the pinball world will live on beyond both of us, yes your work is
that good.
But please, calling it mop and glow is disrespectful to
> those of us who happen to know what the hell we are doing.
to create an "us vs them" atmosphere? To what end?
Do tell.
With all due respect Cliffy, if I'm going overboard I appreciate your
letting me know and I'll adjust me level of "kidding around" down a few
notches. I'm no Gaweee, thanks for the check. :)
See the statement
> you made below? A blanket statement. Why? What is your point? Is it your
> intention
A couple folks here got a kick out of it, it was only meant to be a
unserious jab, in fun. The smiley face was supposed to indicate "just a
wise crack here, not serious attack".
> Karl wrote:
> > So it sounds like you V. guys don't sand much of the varnish (yellowed)
> > layer off?! Oh boy, it's worse than I thought... :)
> >
So what about this issue? Does everyone else do this too? I highly
recommend sanding out as much of the yellow as possible before apllying
"clear of coice" (as I will call it from now on). :)
> >
> > Have fun, Karl.
>
> --
> Cliffy - CARGPB2
> A passion for pinball!
> http://www.passionforpinball.com
Best wishes Cliffy, Karl.
I currently have in my collection about a 40/60 mix of Varathane
and Auto Clear (respectively) games. I would say, without getting
a magnifier out, you probably could not tell which was which
(including even the brushed games).
Can you tell a difference in how they play? nah. Looks are
pretty similar too. How about wear? well i guess i just don't
play my games enough to really judge that because you can't
see wear on either. So really what is the difference between
the two?
Well Varathane is reversible. Not that i'll even need to do
that, but it is undoable. I consider that a good thing, but
some people don't think that's good. Auto clear is not reversible.
Auto clear does *seem* to be a harder and shinier finish. But i have
no real way to test that. Also you don't need any special equipment
(compressor and gun) to spray Varathane. Auto clear is also freakin
dangerous stuff! Varathane is not.
The only reason i really stopped using Varathane was the amount
of work/time involved. With auto clear, i can put down 2 or 3 coats,
let it dry overnight and level it, and put down one or two additional
coats the next day. I can assemble the game a day after that.
But with Varathane, it takes me a week to put down the needed
six coats, and then another 3 to 4 weeks of dry time. It just
takes too long for me (impatient). I can't let a game sit there
for 4 weeks waiting to be assembled. it drives me nuts.
But the end result with either is awesome. Come over and look.
I don't think you could easily tell what was Varathanes and what
was Auto Urethaned. They both work good! The one to pick is the
one that fits your personal style and particular application.
There's really no need to argue about it.
In best Eric Kartman voice.... "Man, I love you guys"........
Yes, back to the fun :)
Karl.
-cody
CARGPB#4
c...@provide.net wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> I have used Varathane *and* Auto Urethanes extensively.
~snip~
but in the end it's whatever works for you. both have their
merits and both give great results. i'm going with the auto
clears now because of the quickness. the varathane process
takes too long for me (impatient).
also there are a couple other things to consider. first,
i would never use Varathane on a 1990s diamondplate game for
example. it was original sprayed with auto urethane, so best to
stay that way. on older lacquer PFs though, you can use either
auto urethane or varathane and get excellent results.
Also the arguement that Varathane is for wood and auto clears
are for metal is just bull. you're not putting varathane over
wood anyway, you're putting it over lacquer (or your touchup
paint). And as you said, they have both been used on wood and
metal and both perform well on either.
in the end, use whatever you are comfortable with or that
you can apply in a safe manner. both auto urethane and
varathane work great on playfields and give great results!
I'd never use it on a NOS p/f for example.
I own all the equipment to do it, and have painted
quite a few vehicles over the years. I still have those
skills.
It's that 'mechanic' gig I have...
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
<c...@provide.net> wrote